THE FOURTH RAIL @ NEWSARAMA: TROUBLE #1 [Archive]

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MattBrady

06-09-2003, 07:48 AM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/troubleone_t.jpg" width="200" height="305" align="right"> A website and Newsarama incarnation or two back, <a href="http://www.thefourthrail.com" target="_blank"> The Fourth Rail’s</a> Randy Lander and Don MacPherson used to be part of the Newsarama team, offering up their weekly individual comic reviews, as well as their Two-In-Ones. We asked them to come back for a limited engagement, and they agreed. The occasion, a review of Trouble #1

<center>Two-in-One Review: Trouble</center>

Mark Millar and the Dodsons dip their toe into the waters of Epic to stir up a little Trouble.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble1_t.jpg" hspace="2" width="150" height="225" border="0" alt="page 1" align="left"></a>Randy:
When Marvel announced that it was throwing open their doors to just about everyone with Epic, it caused a bit of a stir. When it was announced that one of the first books would be by Mark Millar and the Dodsons, and that it would be a teenage romance, eyebrows were raised. And when, recently, we all discovered that the teen romance was about four people who would serve as parents to Spider-Man in years to come? Well, that's when it got interesting.

Don:
Marvel's Mike Doran got some black-and-white preview copies into our grubby little hands, and I found some surprises. Of course, that goes without saying, given how little information was available about Trouble until the last few days. Randy notes this is a teen romance book, but the first issue doesn't strike me as romance, but it is a risqué romp that stands out as a radical shift in genre for the publisher.

Trouble #1
written by Mark Millar
illustrated by Terry & Rachel Dodson
lettered by Chris Eliopoulos
edited by Axel Alonso

Don:
Teenage brothers Richie and Ben have opted to take jobs at a vacation resort in upstate New York instead of just hanging around at home during the summer. Richie figures it'll be the perfect place to meet girls. Speaking of which, a wild girl named May has convinced her more straight-laced friend Mary that a summer of fun, flirting and hopefully more awaits them in the Hamptons as well. Destiny and hormones bring the four of them together, and it looks like they're going to get in some trouble.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble2_t.jpg" width="150" hspace="2" border="0" height="225" alt="page 2" align="right"></a>Randy:
Marvel is pretty well known for staying within the super-hero genre, and even their expansion with different creators and styles has pretty much stayed to the formula that super-heroes have to exist somewhere within it. So Trouble is somewhat ground-breaking for Marvel, in that there isn't a super-hero in sight. In fact, if you came to this book not knowing that the May and Ben will be Aunt and Uncle to Peter Parker, or that Richard and Mary will be his parents, you'd never know it, and you'd never need to know it. Which does lead to the question of why you would tie it into the Marvel Universe at all.

Don:
Welcome to Fast Times at Marvel High, folks. Actually, the characters aren't overtly referred to as the Parkers; there are no last names, but it seems clear from the first names that we're to infer that these characters are Spider-Man's future family. Fortunately, the book doesn't wink at the reader, pointing at little hints of what's to come in their lives. It focuses on them in the moment. In fact, these characters are so different from the ones we've come to know over the years, one can probably enjoy the story more approaching it as a blank slate.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble3_t.jpg" width="150" hspace="2" height="225" border="0" alt="page 3" align="left"></a> Randy:
The best answer I can come up with for why to make these Parker relatives is for the shock value, which sort of puts me off the book a bit. Quite honestly, while Trouble is ground-breaking for Marvel, it's the sort of material that smaller publishers have been doing for years, and while Millar's story certainly isn't bad, it comes off as about as reckless and edgy as Dirty Dancing when compared to some of the work that has come out of Alternative Comics (Grand Gestures) or Oni Press (Blue Monday), to name only two. What makes it stand out from those stories is that it's about Aunt May (and, if rumors are to be believed, a heretofore unrevealed pregnancy), and it seems like shoddy treatment of the character for the purposes of being controversial. Certainly I didn't need to know that May was a hellacious wildcat who makes Stan Lee's Mary Jane look absolutely bookish. While people can certainly change as they age, it seems like Millar takes May's devil-may-care persona a bit too far, and in so doing, risks turning Trouble into a cartoon.

Don:
I don't agree. Sure, there's a shock value in seeing the future May Parker in such a light, but I buy into the notion that people can change radically as they mature. Furthermore, I suspect this first issue -- with its titillating attitude -- is only one facet of the story. I certainly hope so. I would expect more serious subject is coming around the bend. I have to admit, turning May into a wildchild certainly carries with it some potential for controversy, and with it, some mainstream marketing opportunities and perhaps some irked parents of teenage readers.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/trouble4_t.jpg" width="150" hspace="2" height="225" border="0" alt="page 4" align="right"></a>Randy:
Certainly, Trouble reads like your average summer teen movie, with less nudity and foul language. The scenario, teenagers working at a resort for the summer, has been the subject of more than one direct-to-cable movie and schlocky summer flick. Millar hits all the familiar notes here, from the pushy guests and the kids' revenge to the authoritarian resort owner to the raging teenage hormones. It's fun and light, even if it does feel like something I've seen before. Whatever else you can say about Trouble, it is clear that Millar is having fun, and the story is aimed at a much larger audience than the one that is interested in super-heroes.

Don:
Given the slightly sinful focus of this first issue, Terry and Rachel Dodson's provocative and curvaceous artwork seems like the obvious choice to bring it to life. They capture the young May's frisky and energetic nature quite well, and I like that we can see that Ben is a bit sheepish when compared to his younger brother.

Randy:
If you're doing a story about people rather than super-heroes, and you need cheesecake (with taste) and a sense of light fun, you can't go wrong with the Dodsons. While May and Mary look a bit too much alike, that's the only complaint I have about the artwork, which is delightful. Expressive characters and sexy forms, both male and female, fill the pages, and the backdrop of the story is brought to life just as strongly, from the bunkhouses to the palatial resort to the bus station.

Don:
Keep in mind that May and Mary look alike in the black-and-white artwork we've sampled. Marvel sent along three color-page samples as well, and May's red hair sets her apart quite clearly from her blonde pal.

Ultimately, I think the greatest strength of Trouble -- at least from the perspective of this 30-something reader -- is it's easy to identify with these characters. Mind you, I didn't have a sex-filled romp at a summer resort in my youth, but I did have summers full of fun, without a care for any consequences. It's a defining element of youth.

For more information about Trouble, check out Newsarama’s most recent <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/000aaaTrouble.htm[/URL" target="_blank"> feature</a> on the title.

For more upcoming and current comics reviews by Randy Lander and Don MacPherson, visit <a href="http://www.TheFourthRail.com." target="_blank">www.TheFourthRail.com.</a>

Shahril Morat

06-09-2003, 09:43 AM

It really is a good looking book...but I'm getting the trade...Hopefully it doesn't have the jailbait cover...

Gelogurte

06-09-2003, 11:31 AM

Well, nowadays if Millar writes it, I'm buying it. And the Dodson's sure won't let me down.

kickstand

06-09-2003, 12:04 PM

I already saw this episode of Saved by the Bell.

Barry

06-09-2003, 12:14 PM

Nice review guys. Well balanced as usual. And it's also confirmed that this book is definitely not for me, as Randy pointed out, I can get the same kind of story, but only better, elsewhere.

Hdefined

06-09-2003, 12:59 PM

Hey Newsarama, can we have 5 more Trouble articles? Please? It hasn't been shoved far enough down our throats yet.

And since when do you guys have anything to do with The Fourth Rail anymore? Give me a freaking break.

Gregg Cummings

06-09-2003, 01:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shahril Morat:
It really is a good looking book...but I'm getting the trade...Hopefully it doesn't have the jailbait cover...<hr /></blockquote>All I can say is that the women on the cover are pushing 30. Certainly not "jailbait". I've seen more revealing covers on my sister's Seventeen and Roxy. They could've gotten actual teens for the cover.

I'm buying this just to see what it's all about and to have the first book in the Epic line. I would've preferred a less cheesecake art team. Duncan Fregredo would've been off-the-script. Chasing Dogma was great.

American Caesar

06-09-2003, 01:19 PM

The Hamptons are on the eastern tip of Long Island and not in upstate New York, FYI.

Eric Yonge

06-09-2003, 01:35 PM

Good review... I enjoy reading Don and Randy's takes on comics every week. They do a great job over at theFourthRail.com. I didn't know they used to be with Newsarama.

Ian

06-09-2003, 01:59 PM

For those of you who think this is a really interesting idea, but find that it's maybe not for you, check out a few other comics that deal with these type of sensibilities but are designed for a more adult audience...not teenage girls or anything. Warning: none of these deal with Spider-Man continuity. :p

The Ballad of Doctor Richardson...Paul Pope
Big Clay Pot...Scott Mills
Box Office Poison...Alex Robinson
Breakfast After Noon...Andi Watson
Cathedral Child...Lea Hernandez
Cheat...Christine Norrie
Chobits...CLAMP
Clockwork Angels...Lea Hernandez
Dumped...Andi Watson
Geisha...Andi Watson
Harlequin Valentine...Neil Gaiman
Kissers...James Kochalka
Love and Rockets...Los Bros Hernandez
Mail Order Bride...Mark Kalesniko
Mirror, Window...Jessica Abel
Odds Off...Matt Madden
Pounded...Brian Wood
Subway Series...Leela Corman
The Waiting Place...Sean McKeever
Zero Girl...Sam Keith

This stuff is actually a lot more creative and heartfelt than the Trouble product sounds. It's not like any of these works were made with a genre in mind and then laquering on certain marketing dos and don't in an endeavor to demographic seek--these were done as stories that happen to get grouped by genre because they most fit the description. I say that to say, these works have themes that align with romance or relationships but don't necessarily adhere to them in every regard. They're all great though.

BTW, I pulled this quick list from <a href="http://artbomb.net/genres.jsp" target="_blank">Artbomb.net's browse by books section</a>. Thanks artbomb! Also check out Mars Import and search by genre.

ctsmith83

06-09-2003, 02:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hdefined:
Hey Newsarama, can we have 5 more Trouble articles? Please? It hasn't been shoved far enough down our throats yet.<hr /></blockquote>Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! Seriously... This book has absolutely no appeal to me - from the head-shaking cover to the "maybe it's tied to Spidey, maybe not" drummed up controversy. I'm sick of Marvel's hype machine running amok. I may just drop all my Marvel titles I'm so fed up with Quemas... :mad:

Simon DelMonte

06-09-2003, 03:10 PM

It sounds awful. But then I am a self-proclaimed prude. That it stars Peter Parker's family is just rather silly.

I don't get why a book by Millar and Dodson needs to be tied in at all to any established characters. Is Marvel so afraid to try something completely different that it cannot let go of the Marvel Universe?

MattBrady

06-09-2003, 03:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! <hr /></blockquote>You guys always crack me up...

MattB

Barry

06-09-2003, 03:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hdefined:
Hey Newsarama, can we have 5 more Trouble articles? Please? It hasn't been shoved far enough down our throats yet.

And since when do you guys have anything to do with The Fourth Rail anymore? Give me a freaking break.<hr /></blockquote>What's your problem, dude? No one's forcing you to check out the site.

MattBrady

06-09-2003, 03:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Barry:
What's your problem, dude? No one's forcing you to check out the site.<hr /></blockquote>{sheepishly puts gun away...}

Barry

06-09-2003, 03:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hdefined:
Hey Newsarama, can we have 5 more Trouble articles? Please? It hasn't been shoved far enough down our throats yet.<hr /></blockquote>Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! Seriously... This book has absolutely no appeal to me - from the head-shaking cover to the "maybe it's tied to Spidey, maybe not" drummed up controversy. I'm sick of Marvel's hype machine running amok. I may just drop all my Marvel titles I'm so fed up with Quemas... :mad: <hr /></blockquote>Bet you won't. :-)

ctsmith83

06-09-2003, 03:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! <hr /></blockquote>You guys always crack me up...

MattB<hr /></blockquote>What? Hasn't your cheque from Marvel arrived yet? And where is Mr. Doran working now? Hmmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I guess my previous post (and this one) don't contain a sarcasm smiley because there isn't one to do them justice. :p

Seriously though, every industry has backroom deals and "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deals. With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?

Graeme McMillan

06-09-2003, 03:28 PM

Hey, Matt, really: Why such a push for Trouble? Will we be seeing occasional Two-for-one reviews of other buzz books, like Endless Nights, Teen Titans, etc?

TTROY

06-09-2003, 03:41 PM

Matt I gotta agree with the people that trouble is getting alot more press than it deserves....

Like a previous poster listed this story is nothing new --maybe new for Marvel....

But Hell does the cover even have anything to do with the story?

Can we spotlight some of the lesser marvel title that have not been hyped to death...

there are some of the Tsunami line that would be great to hear about.

waiting for the inevitable 25 articles about JMS new series and 1602......yawn

Taylor Porter

06-09-2003, 03:49 PM

The fact that every previous article on Trouble has inspired around 5+ pages of posts would indicate that there is a lot of interest in discussing this project.

gwangung

06-09-2003, 03:55 PM

More articles on TROUBLE. The inane, ill-informed comments here and on other places on the web are pretty damn entertaining....

"Inappropriate cover"? "Unsuitable subject matter"? Hello, people! Take a look at something other than superhero comics!

Graeme McMillan

06-09-2003, 04:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Taylor Porter:
The fact that every previous article on Trouble has inspired around 5+ pages of posts would indicate that there is a lot of interest in discussing this project.<hr /></blockquote>Hell, Taylor, if Newsarama published an interview with Bill Jemas, Mark Millar and Joe Quesada where they talked about wool, there'd be 5+ pages of posts following...

woodstock

06-09-2003, 05:38 PM

Wool? As in wool sweaters? Is this a new story? Origin 2? What are you KEEPING FROM US!?!?!?!?!

Pariah

06-09-2003, 05:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Don:
Teenage brothers Richie and Ben have opted to take jobs at a vacation resort in upstate New York instead of just hanging around at home during the summer. <hr /></blockquote>Pet peeve time. I hate the term "Upstate New York". Can we define the location of this series a little bit more clearly? I mean if you listen to DOWNSTATE New Yorkers, the term Upstate refers to anywhere from Bill & Hillary's house to Niagra Falls. Now if this series were set in the Finger Lakes or so I'd buy it, because the location would mean something to me. But cheaping out on the Upstate term is like saying Houston is somewhere nearby Dallas. God, New York State is so much bigger geography wise than the city, can we get some respect here.

-Pariah- first in line to vote Manhattan and Long Island as the USAs 51st state! :mad:

pickard

06-09-2003, 06:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! <hr /></blockquote>You guys always crack me up...

MattB<hr /></blockquote>Whether or not anything shady is going on between Marvel and Newsarama, shouldn't you, as a journalist, be guarding against the appearance of impropriety?

And if some of your readers see a conflict of interest and doubt your objectivity, should that really amuse you?

Eric Yonge

06-09-2003, 06:56 PM

All it takes is one look at Newsarama's front page to realize Matt focuses on a lot of publishers other than Marvel. As far as TROUBLE goes, this is coverage on a high-profile book that up until recently has been shrouded in secrecy. As posts indicate, it's helping people decide whether they want to buy it or not. I don't see any problem with that.

MattBrady

06-09-2003, 07:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pickard:
Whether or not anything shady is going on between Marvel and Newsarama, shouldn't you, as a journalist, be guarding against the appearance of impropriety?

And if some of your readers see a conflict of interest and doubt your objectivity, should that really amuse you?<hr /></blockquote>You hit the nail on the head when you said "some" readers. And to answer your question, I think it should more rely on what the criticism is, more so than the mere appearance of it. There isn't much you can do that someone on the internet won't find fault with. I guarantee you that I could post an article about water being wet, and someone would say I was obviously being paid off by the water company to say that. Yes, I can guard against impropriety, but I can’t read every reader’s mind and guard against what they feel is inappropriate be it a legitimate concern, or completely fantastic in nature.

In this instance, this review had merit as a unique piece, as it is the first review of the full issue of Trouble #1 to roll out, and I (as well as Newsarama) have a history of working with Don and Randy. But also – if there was something shady going on, don’t you think the review would have been a little more enthusiastic than the lukewarm endorsement Don & Randy gave it? Oh, I know…Newsarama is a Marvel hype machine! They give…passable reviews to their books!

The reason I need to keep a sense of humor about it is because the same things have been said cyclically for 5 years now, largely from the same people, and motivated by the same circumstances.

In my opinion, this has less to do with a issue of Newsarama's objectivity and more to do with some people who seriously hate it when Marvel projects - particularly certain Marvel projects - get a relatively large amount of press for any given reason(s) (the first book of a new line, written by two arguably hot creators, the book entering a new genre for the publisher, the possibility the book is tied to Spider-Man who is a hot character these days), and so they target anyone who doesn't feel they way they do. Normally, these folks just make vague insults about people who they think will pick it up (usually dopping little bombs like the people will be "pathetic" and they "feel sorry for them"), and occasionally, the punches being thrown in every direction come back my way.

Watch this thread develop, see it happen for yourself. It happens at least every third month or so, and goes along these lines (when I have the time to actually respond, and the poster has dismissed the Newsarama stories of Marvel price hikes, Joe Simon suing the publisher, cancellations and other articles over the years that have had negative connotations by their very nature as not being germane to the argument at hand, oddly… ):

<blockquote>Poster: Newsarama is a Marvel shill. They hype Marvel more than any other publisher. I bet they’re getting paid by the Marvel article!

Newsarama: If it is so obvious, prove it.

Poster: Anyone can see it.

Newsarama: Prove it. I’ve got x Marvel articles on the front page, x DC, x other publishers, and x no specific publisher. (9 times out of 10 Marvel is the lowest of the x’s above – as it is now. There are 7 Marvel and 8 DC by a quick check.)

Poster: That’s not what I meant – you give more favorable press to Marvel…

Newsarama: Prove it, compared to who? What do you mean, “favorable?”

Poster: You have x stories about this project from Marvel. That’s too many!

Newsarama: Compared to whom?

Poster: Everyone else.

Newsarama: How many articles on x subject is appropriate?

Poster: Zero! I don’t see why Newsarama has to cover Marvel crap at all! You suck!

(and then someone gets booted….and here’s a hint – it’s not me.)</blockquote>

As I said, these things run in cycles, and to date I/Newsarama have been accused of virtually everything under the sun. Once, Newsarama was accused of being a Marvel, a DC, and an Image shill on thee consecutive days.

The part you need to be "amused" by to remain sane is these people apparently think if they're nasty and sarcastic enough, that I'm going to become more concerned with this "appearance" and less with my own judgment.

Someday maybe it'll sink in.

As I have for 5 years and will for the next five, I encourage readers to vote with their browsers.
That's really the final word on this, isn't it?

And to quote Gump, “that’s about all I have to say about that.” If you want to talk more about Newsarama and its biases, head over to the Talk @ board, and I’ll be there (if I’m not, drop me an e-mail, and I’ll show up…). But for this thread, let’s keep it on the topic of Trouble #1.

MattB

zeraze

06-09-2003, 07:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Simon DelMonte:

I don't get why a book by Millar and Dodson needs to be tied in at all to any established characters. Is Marvel so afraid to try something completely different that it cannot let go of the Marvel Universe?<hr /></blockquote>In a word, yes.

Why? First, historically, Marvel was never as successful as DC in generating hit comics like Neil Gaiman's Sandman that did exist in its mainstream superhero universe. So, they will try to modify superheroes and related characters that are well-known to regular readers so they can explore other genres (e.g., romance) while reducing the odds of losing money.

Secondly, readers. Lately, too many comic fans have been wary if not hostile to any title devoid of familiar superheroes. Hence, they will declared The Ultimates as a revolutionary superhero comic even though it is an Avengers rehash ripping off the truly radical Authority. Because of this mentality, publishers like Marvel feel little need to be really creative and original when revamps and reboots of familiar comics will be surefire top-sellers. It's comparable to the reality TV craze that has gripped network TV.

I hope that answers your question about Trouble.

zeraze

P.S.

To better understand the psychology of comic fans averse to new ideas, check out these columns:

*Brand New, You're Retro: <a href="http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/grimtidings/gtmay18.htm" target="_blank">http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/grimtidings/gtmay18.htm</a>

*Why Comic Fans Hate the New: <a href="http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/grimtidings/gtmay25.htm" target="_blank">http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/grimtidings/gtmay25.htm</a>

drss

06-09-2003, 08:27 PM

They better not have any flash backs in it, tell the origins first, and do it same way the most successful Marvel titles (Hulk, Spider-Man, Ultimate Spider-Man) do it.

Only by doing so can it be EPIC. Only by doing so can it be a comic worth buying. Only by doing so can it be good.

argent

06-09-2003, 10:00 PM

The only real thing that bugs me about this is Marvel's constant ignoring of established history....

<a href="http://www.samruby.com/Spiderverse/RichardMary/richardmary.htm" target="_blank">Peter's parents were spys killed by the Red Skull.</a>

Barry

06-09-2003, 10:11 PM

Just a note to the individuals who seem to have the absolutely ludicrous notion that Newsarama is a 'shill' for Marvel, should take note of all of the other dozen or so feature articles and news items that are about other companies, including small press/indy creators and books like Damon Hurd's My Uncle Jeff. Which, I might point out, have little to no comments from the peanut gallery here, despite it being hailed as one of the best comics of the last few years. The reason Marvel and Trouble gets the attention from Newsarama is because it gets attention from YOU. End of story. And for those of you who doubt the journalistic integrity of Matt Brady, you might want to question why you keep visiting this site.

Just a thought.

Gregg Cummings

06-09-2003, 11:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ian:
For those of you who think this is a really interesting idea, but find that it's maybe not for you, check out a few other comics that deal with these type of sensibilities but are designed for a more adult audience...not teenage girls or anything. Warning: none of these deal with Spider-Man continuity. :p

The Ballad of Doctor Richardson...Paul Pope
Big Clay Pot...Scott Mills
Box Office Poison...Alex Robinson
Breakfast After Noon...Andi Watson
Cathedral Child...Lea Hernandez
Cheat...Christine Norrie
Chobits...CLAMP
Clockwork Angels...Lea Hernandez
Dumped...Andi Watson
Geisha...Andi Watson
Harlequin Valentine...Neil Gaiman
Kissers...James Kochalka
Love and Rockets...Los Bros Hernandez
Mail Order Bride...Mark Kalesniko
Mirror, Window...Jessica Abel
Odds Off...Matt Madden
Pounded...Brian Wood
Subway Series...Leela Corman
The Waiting Place...Sean McKeever
Zero Girl...Sam Keith
<hr /></blockquote>I've only read two titles from this list: Zero Girl & Chobits.

Zero Girl is that undefinable kind of story that just pulls you in. I read the TPB in one sitting. I just couldn't put it down. There was more character devolpment in that mini-series than some titles have in two or three years. I'd love to see Sam Keith do more writing with other artists or on his own.

Chobits is classic CLAMP done in a whole new way. Great for any manga fan.

Hdefined

06-10-2003, 01:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:

A lot of stuff
<hr /></blockquote>A little weird that you go all out to defend yourself now, but I think I pointed out what a lot of people are agreeing with: there's been an excess of Trouble articles on this site. That's all.

And it's pathetic.

Also, are they saying the Hamptons are upstate? What the fuck? This better not be true. Notice, I'm not saying they did say it, I'm asking if they did, but if they did, they're f***ing dumbasses because it's a Long Island hotspot.

gwangung

06-10-2003, 03:41 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> A little weird that you go all out to defend yourself now, but I think I pointed out what a lot of people are agreeing with: there's been an excess of Trouble articles on this site. That's all. <hr /></blockquote>And I think it's a wrong perception. Given the pages of responses and posts after each article, I would judge the coverage to be just about right; if it was too much, nobody would be posting.

DeForgeo

06-10-2003, 07:55 AM

Well, I screwed that post up. Let's try this again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hdefined:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:

A lot of stuff
<hr /></blockquote>A little weird that you go all out to defend yourself now, but I think I pointed out what a lot of people are agreeing with: there's been an excess of Trouble articles on this site. That's all.

And it's pathetic.<hr /></blockquote>There are THREE articles about Trouble on the main page, and one of them is specifically concerning the Philedelphia Wizard World convention. There are four if you count the "Jemas Talks Trouble" link if you scroll down the page long enough.

How is that an "excess of articles"?

GenXMaverick

06-10-2003, 08:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TTROY:
Matt I gotta agree with the people that trouble is getting alot more press than it deserves....<hr /></blockquote>TTROY, you say Trouble is getting more press than it "deserves." Any comic book is deserving of media coverage. That you think Trouble is of poor quality is a matter of your opinion, not journalistic fact.

The bottom line is you've decided you're not interested in Epic Comics' first release. You think websites should cover what YOU deem acceptable? Create your own website and then you will have the power to censor Marvel, DC, Image, and other books that you decide are "undeserving."

I prefer to hear as much about Epic as possible before it comes out so I can decide for myself as to whether or not it's "deserving." I don't need you telling me that Newsarama needs to drop all or most of the articles on Trouble. If you're sick of it, then don't read it--don't insist Newsarama keep me from seeing coverage of any comic simply because you don't want to read it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Like a previous poster listed this story is nothing new --maybe new for Marvel....<hr /></blockquote>This is the first actual review of Trouble that I've seen online. Plus, it's from two reviewers whose opinions I respect. Being that it's the first complete review of the first Epic Comics series, that does make it new information that we haven't seen elsewhere.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But Hell does the cover even have anything to do with the story?<hr /></blockquote>Learn to read. It has been said before here on Newsarama that the style of covers for Trouble are replicating the covers of Young Adult fiction for school-age girls.

You wouldn't sell Marvel movies with posters that have tons of word balloons and dated 60's lingo (Excelsior! Nuff Said!) all over them. Non-comics reading moviegoers want advertising and marketing that interests them, not you. The same principle applies to Millar's new book.

Publishers tailor the packaging and images on their books to attract the specific audience that the stories are geared toward. The marketing of Trouble is directed at teenage girls who buy Young Adult novels with the exact same covers. If Marvel were using superhero-style covers, then young girls would by and large have zero interest in the book. The covers are for them, not for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can we spotlight some of the lesser marvel title that have not been hyped to death...

there are some of the Tsunami line that would be great to hear about.
<hr /></blockquote>Here you contradict yourself by failing to do your research before attempting to prove your point. When Marvel began a publicity blitz for the Tsunami line, some posters here complained it was unnecessary hype---same as in this instance. In fact, the people complaining about Trouble now are the same ones who said the same thing about coverage of Tsunami. Be consistent and make sure you double check the facts before you claim that Tsunami articles would be more well-received. You are mistaken.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />waiting for the inevitable 25 articles about JMS new series and 1602......yawn<hr /></blockquote>25 articles? Recount your sarcastic slam of Newsarama's coverage of Trouble. The number of articles on Trouble is in the single digits.

And for the love of God, the day I hear anyone complain about Neil Gaiman's work getting more than a few articles is where I draw the line. Gaiman is one of the top writers in the comics industry and his work almost always merits any & all attention it gets. J. Michael Straczynski, the creator of Rising Stars, is also one of the most respected writers in the business and Supreme Power is a series worthy of further discussion and examination in the comics press.

GenXMaverick

06-10-2003, 09:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
What? Hasn't your cheque from Marvel arrived yet? And where is Mr. Doran working now? Hmmmm... <hr /></blockquote>In the recording industry, it's called payola--and accusing someone of bribery and breaking the law isn't something done lightly. Nor is it even remotely funny when you're trying to damage someone's reputation so you can look hip & cool while smearing someone with rumormongering. Provide documentation of this garbage or drop it. In my view, you're engaging in libel and that's definitely illegal. Make sure your own conduct is above reproach before you start slandering Matt or anyone else.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I guess my previous post (and this one) don't contain a sarcasm smiley because there isn't one to do them justice.<hr /></blockquote>Trashing someone to score points doesn't take talent or imagination. If you really want to do anyone justice, show some respect and act like an adult. Because you're not doing either the former or the latter.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Seriously though,<hr /></blockquote>Look up the word serious in the dictionary because you clearly don't know the meaning of the word. Not at the eighth grade level that you're writing these baseless attacks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />every industry has backroom deals and "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deals.<hr /></blockquote>Which you show no firsthand knowledge of. Also, absolutely no evidence of beyond your own resentment of Newsarama's articles on Marvel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years<hr /></blockquote>Do your empty allegations of a pro-Marvel bias at Newsarama include the coverage of Marvel being sued by Brian Hibbs for violation of their own Terms Of Sale? Or Newsarama's articles covering Sony's countersuit of Marvel accusing them of illegal accounting practices? Or Newsarama's articles about staff layoffs and firings at Marvel over the last 2 years?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?<hr /></blockquote>No, it's no surprise when people such as yourself have convenient memories, remembering only the items you want and forgetting every fact that contradicts your malicious gossip. Taking the time to study Newsarama's history and ALL their Marvel coverage, both good and bad, would stop a lot of the personal attacks on Matt and Newsarama.

But that would require careful thought and thorough research, neither of which you are capable of since your actions seem to indicate a below-average intelligence.

ctsmith83

06-10-2003, 10:51 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GenXMaverick:
Statements deleted.<hr /></blockquote>Nice of you to omit the smilies that went with my posting. It skews your post to support your own argument. I was attempting to use humour and sarcasm to indicate what usually crops up in some threads with a pro-Marvel thrust - that Newsarama is accused of being a Marvel shill. Pulse has also been accused of being a Crossgen shill. I am unaware of which site has been accused of being a DC or Image shill.

By failing to present the smilies that were in my post, you have misquoted me and is that not libel or slander? Omitting the context or tense of a statement only serves to twist it to your own use and change the intention of my statement. Why don't you look up sarcasm and satire in a dictionary Mr. Holier-than-thou-educated-person. Based on the postings of others on this board and Pulse's board, some people do perceive Newsarama to be too pro-Marvel and Pulse to be too pro-Crossgen. Rightly, or wrongly, that perception exists for some people. I was making light of that perception.

To bring this posting back to the thread at hand, I will not be purchasing Trouble because of the cover and the "maybe it is, maybe it isn't" attempts to tie the series into Spider-Man continuity. But I'm not the intended audience, right?

Hdefined

06-10-2003, 11:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GenXMaverick:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TTROY:
Matt I gotta agree with the people that trouble is getting alot more press than it deserves....<hr /></blockquote>TTROY, you say Trouble is getting more press than it "deserves." Any comic book is deserving of media coverage. <hr /></blockquote>So how come this is the only thing by Marvel getting full coverage multiple times? What about the extra arc of Spider-Girl that will see if it can still survive? What about Agent X's reprieval? The next writer of Avengers? Any info about Quest? Etc?

Exactly. Newsarama is starting to act like Marvel itself, hype and preview the hell out of the bigger sellers (or more likely bigger sellers), do crap for the rest.

holtom2000

06-10-2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted
Hey Newsarama, can we have 5 more Trouble articles? Please? It hasn't been shoved far enough down our throats yet.

Hahahahaha

Elayne Riggs

06-10-2003, 01:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Seriously though, every industry has backroom deals and "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deals. With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?<hr /></blockquote>Some people would assume it from the fact that one of Newsarama's founders is now employed at Marvel, and one of the site's regular columnists is currently freelancing for them. But I think Newsarama does cover the other publishers more or less in proportion to their sales.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

06-10-2003, 01:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by woodstock:
Wool? As in wool sweaters? Is this a new story? Origin 2? What are you KEEPING FROM US!?!?!?!?!<hr /></blockquote>And what about the poor sheep, eh? Who's asking the really important questions? Will they be kept away from Millar?, is what I want to know!

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

06-10-2003, 01:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pariah:
Pet peeve time. I hate the term "Upstate New York". Can we define the location of this series a little bit more clearly? I mean if you listen to DOWNSTATE New Yorkers, the term Upstate refers to anywhere from Bill & Hillary's house to Niagra Falls. Now if this series were set in the Finger Lakes or so I'd buy it, because the location would mean something to me. But cheaping out on the Upstate term is like saying Houston is somewhere nearby Dallas. God, New York State is so much bigger geography wise than the city, can we get some respect here.<hr /></blockquote>Unlikely. There's the NYC metro area, which usually encompasses Westchester, Rockland and Putnam Counties, but get above that it's considered "upstate" by the folks who work in NYC. Even Ulster and Orange, only a few hours' drive, are "upstate" to us. And the "upstate" legislators in Albany have often shown very little respect for the City-dwellers and -commuters, at least financially, so I think the divide, which is easily as much about politics as about geography, is destined to continue. That said, I saw a very cool documentary about the Hudson River last night, and I now want to live and work in Troy. :)

- Elayne (calls her Bronx neighborhood "south Westchester")

Elayne Riggs

06-10-2003, 01:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeForgeo:
There are THREE articles about Trouble on the main page, and one of them is specifically concerning the Philedelphia Wizard World convention. There are four if you count the "Jemas Talks Trouble" link if you scroll down the page long enough.
How is that an "excess of articles"?<hr /></blockquote>You don't find 3-4 articles about one specific book to be comparatively excessive coverage? Particularly when the book hasn't even hit the shelves yet?

- Elayne

DeForgeo

06-10-2003, 02:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeForgeo:
There are THREE articles about Trouble on the main page, and one of them is specifically concerning the Philedelphia Wizard World convention. There are four if you count the "Jemas Talks Trouble" link if you scroll down the page long enough.
How is that an "excess of articles"?<hr /></blockquote>You don't find 3-4 articles about one specific book to be comparatively excessive coverage? Particularly when the book hasn't even hit the shelves yet?

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>You don't find 3-4 articles about one specific book to be comparatively excessive coverage? Particularly when the book hasn't even hit the shelves yet?

Having read all four articles, I don't believe that's the case here. Two articles are official press releases/conferences from Marvel (which, I should mention, could be found on many other comics news websites), one of them is a general news wrap up from a convention and the other is a review (and not a stellar one, at that.) I would hardly call it "excessive."

TTROY

06-10-2003, 03:22 PM

3-4 articles to me about the same material regurgitating the same sort of stuff over and over is a little excessive to me..... especially since there are sooo many books out there....there are hundreds of titles---singles out one to get article after article day after day especially since it has been noted that the books hasn't hit shelves is rather excessive.

A for the record I didn't accuse Newsrama of being marvel bias i just asked was there any other title that we could be getting into on that might deserve it or need to exposure?

5 articles on one book mean that possibly 4 others books don't get mentionsed.

and i find it funny that GenX Maverick seemed to take a persnal offense to the whole deal...and really took it way to seriously.

Get a grip man Trouble will sell----

why can't other books be given exposure as well...

okay you make a point about one of the article being a review......

go down though the list in the op/ed section how many other titles have gotten an article for a review?

Trouble to me right now is an overhyped book/event ....that by the time we will see it will rank up there in the number of articles that say were written about the YOU-Decide event (an we all know has satisfying a event that was)

Speaking of which Matt how about a comprehensive follow up to the outcome of the whole YOU-Decide event.....

or would that be too emabarasing for Marvel to read about?

cyclopsfan

06-10-2003, 05:13 PM

Just to throw some actual numbers out there,

Its amazing that amongst the criticism for the number of articles on Trouble, and amid the calls for reviews for lesser known titles, that NO ONE has posted a comment on either of the two titles that were added recently.

Sojourn 24, and Death Mask 3 (?) If you arent just being whiney and complaining, then why dont we have post's over there offering support, instead of just criticism on this one.

DeForgeo

06-10-2003, 05:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3-4 articles to me about the same material regurgitating the same sort of stuff over and over is a little excessive to me..... <hr /></blockquote>"Regurgitating"? I don't see how.

One of them was a teaser that Bill Jemas e-mailed to all the comics news sites regarding the title. . . Which Newsarama was obliged to report, because when Bill Jemas sends out an e-mail, it's usually worth reporting.

One of them was a convention report, which only breifly mentioned Trouble, along with some other news from Philedelphia.

One of them was an official press release from Marvel regarding Trouble featuring interviews from the creators involved.

And one of them was a review of the first issue.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />go down though the list in the op/ed section how many other titles have gotten an article for a review?<hr /></blockquote>Because Randy and Don were the first two people outside of Marvel offices to have seen the first comic in the new Epic line, and Epic could be pretty big news. It is the first review of what could be a historic release (or perhaps a historic flop. Time will tell.)

And hey, I wish that Newsarama would cover more than just Marvel, DC, Crossgen and Image titles too. Same with Comic Book Resources and Comics Continuum. Newsarama's tends to only cover major publishers, and it will probably stay that way. But very few people visit this site to find news about small press publishing, in the same way that very few people read Rolling Stone to get information about indie bands.

And I'd have to agree with cyclopsfan (above)- If you want other types of articles published over here, show your support and add some replies. If Newsarama sees that those types of articles are getting more attention, it'll print more.

GenXMaverick

06-10-2003, 06:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Nice of you to omit the smilies that went with my posting.<hr /></blockquote>You put smilies in to indicate humor; I made it very clear that what you wrote wasn't funny--at all. You may see accusations of bribery and payola as witty and cute, but I don't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It skews your post to support your own argument.<hr /></blockquote>Your post is still there for all to see in all its unfunny glory; I can't delete it. And I didn't censor any of your post. I don't see accusing anyone here of taking bribes as a laughing matter, even if you do. Even if I'd left them in, my criticisms of your comments do not change. And for the record, people selectively respond to each other's posts here ALL the time, only quoting small parts of the post. I quoted every single word you wrote; with or without a smile, it's still a badly written critique.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I was attempting to use humour and sarcasm to indicate what usually crops up in some threads with a pro-Marvel thrust - that Newsarama is accused of being a Marvel shill.<hr /></blockquote>Threads with a pro-Marvel thrust? There many Marvel "haters" here who have no problem complaining about any Marvel article Newsarama puts here--and many of them have been & are posting to this thread.

As for being a shill, read my reply to TTROY. You're only noting the good press because it supports your argument. You don't acknowledge the articles on lawsuits, countersuits, Terms of Sale contract violations, cancellations, firings and layoffs at Marvel that Newsarama has reported as well. Acknowledge both the good and the bad, write a critique that includes ALL of Newsarama's coverage and then you might be able to prove your point. You haven't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Pulse has also been accused of being a Crossgen shill. I am unaware of which site has been accused of being a DC or Image shill.<hr /></blockquote>Saying people have been accused of being bribed doesn't make it a fact, so smearing Pulse or any other site doesn't strengthen your argument. Accusations aren't facts. Prove your point with a complete view of all the articles done here on Marvel before attempting to pass it off as a matter of fact.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />By failing to present the smilies that were in my post, you have misquoted me and is that not libel or slander?<hr /></blockquote>I disagree. Not at all--your accusations were presented without any proof, nor did I rewrite one word of your text.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Omitting the context or tense of a statement only serves to twist it to your own use and change the intention of my statement.<hr /></blockquote>Alright, if you truly believe that, I'll note it here: you used smilies to indicate you were winking and sticking out your tongue during your attack on Newsarama.

It doesn't sound any better to me, but from here on out I'll quote your every keystroke. Your comments are still written at an eighth grade level and you still have not one shred of proof other than positive coverage of Marvel makes you mad.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why don't you look up sarcasm and satire in a dictionary Mr. Holier-than-thou-educated-person.<hr /></blockquote>As I've said both above in this post and before in my previous post, I don't think there's anything funny about what you wrote. It's character assassination without a legitimate, well-researched critique. You didn't objectively criticize; you insinuated at things without evidence. That isn't sincere and it isn't valid; it's also unfair. And if you're going to insist that Newsarama isn't being fair in its coverage of Marvel (that it's slanted in their favor), then you should practice what you preach. You're not.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Based on the postings of others on this board and Pulse's board, some people do perceive Newsarama to be too pro-Marvel and Pulse to be too pro-Crossgen.<hr /></blockquote>That's an objective statement. It's also the only one you've written so far. The fact people dislike the articles written or believe it is paid advertising doesn't require people to prove anything. I don't like your comments, but that doesn't mean I know what you do outside of this board. And you don't know what Matt Brady does outside of Newsarama; you only know you don't like what articles he's posted. Show us some hard facts because your anger & offense at the number of Trouble articles doesn't qualify as proof of payola.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Rightly, or wrongly, that perception exists for some people.<hr /></blockquote>If you look Middle Eastern, you must be a terrorist. If you look attractive, then you must be a nice person. If you wear a suit and tie, you must be an office employee. If you buy comic books, you must live in your mother's basement. If you listen to rap music and wear hip-hop clothes, you must be selling dope. Perception is not reality.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I was making light of that perception.<hr /></blockquote>And doing a bad job of it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To bring this posting back to the thread at hand, I will not be purchasing Trouble because of the cover and the "maybe it is, maybe it isn't" attempts to tie the series into Spider-Man continuity. But I'm not the intended audience, right?<hr /></blockquote>Don't judge a book by its cover. And no, you aren't the intended audience. That last observation counts as your second objective statement. Oh, if you go back and edit your post to put smilies in it, I'll make sure to cut & paste them into my reply.

Brian Jacks

06-11-2003, 01:00 AM

Anyhoo... Randy and Don rule!

ctsmith83

06-11-2003, 01:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Your comments are still written at an eighth grade level and you still have not one shred of proof other than positive coverage of Marvel makes you mad.<hr /></blockquote>It's nice to know that such highly intelligent and observant people find the time in their busy day to post such long and drawn out critiques of my postings. What proof do I need to provide that some people see this site as beating the drum for Marvel and The Pulse as beating the drum for Crossgen? Read the posts here and and on The Pulse yourself. I was not writing a critique of the sites, nor was I saying that I held the same belief as those people who do believe they bang the drums loudly. People do post on both boards mentioning that they feel that they are too pro-whatever.

Let's look at my first post:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! Seriously... This book has absolutely no appeal to me - from the head-shaking cover to the "maybe it's tied to Spidey, maybe not" drummed up controversy. I'm sick of Marvel's hype machine running amok. I may just drop all my Marvel titles I'm so fed up with Quemas... :mad: <hr /></blockquote>In this post, I made light of the fact that people see this site as a Marvel hype machine and that Doran now works for Marvel. People have mentioned this in other postings and I attempted to make a joke about it. Apparently my "eighth grade level" intellect failed to spell that out for you.

And the second:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Originally posted by MattBrady:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype- rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here!
<hr /></blockquote>You guys always crack me up...

MattB
<hr /></blockquote>What? Hasn't your cheque from Marvel arrived yet? And where is Mr. Doran working now? Hmmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I guess my previous post (and this one) don't contain a sarcasm smiley because there isn't one to do them justice. :p

Seriously though, every industry has backroom deals and "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deals. With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?<hr /></blockquote>In this post, I gave a nudge to Matt about the Marvel hype (again) and that his former co-worker now works at Marvel. I then posed the question to Matt that because of some of the overly positive articles that have been printed here, some people may accuse them of being shills for Marvel. Was I accusing Newsarama of being a Marvel shill? No. I was pointing out that people may wrongly believe that Newsarama was a shill for Marvel.

From your last post:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Saying people have been accused of being bribed doesn't make it a fact, so smearing Pulse or any other site doesn't strengthen your argument. Accusations aren't facts. Prove your point with a complete view of all the articles done here on Marvel before attempting to pass it off as a matter of fact.<hr /></blockquote>I'm a little bit uncertain as to how you want me to approach this. Do you want me to sift through all the posts here and on The Pulse and then provide links to them to show you that other people have accused both sites of being hype-machines? I attempted to find the Pulse thread where Jen had to defend the number of Crossgen articles that she's authored, but was unable to locate it. Was I accusing both sites of being shills? No. I stated that other people had accused them and that they may want to watch out for it.

Elayne managed to understand the point I was attempting to make:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Seriously though, every industry has backroom deals and "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deals. With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?
<hr /></blockquote>Some people would assume it from the fact that one of Newsarama's founders is now employed at Marvel, and one of the site's regular columnists is currently freelancing for them. But I think Newsarama does cover the other publishers more or less in proportion to their sales.<hr /></blockquote>You have read way too much into my statements. You seem to see my statements as an all out attack on both websites and that I'm hurling accusations left and right about bribes. I think you need to step back and re-read the posts in the proper context. If you cannot understand my "eighth grade level" statements, then perhaps you aren't my intended audience. Elayne certainly understood and she is far more intelligent than an eighth grader. Do you have a bachelors or masters degree Elayne?

I realize that I have now approached the length of your posts with this post. You appear to have taken my statements and turned them into a witch hunt, which was not their intention. That's just my observation.

Don MacPherson

06-11-2003, 01:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brian Jacks:
Anyhoo... Randy and Don rule!<hr /></blockquote>... with an iron fist.

:)

Thanks, Brian.

Don MacPherson
<a href="http://www.thefourthrail.com" target="_blank">www.thefourthrail.com</a>

David H.

06-11-2003, 03:20 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! <hr /></blockquote>You guys always crack me up...

MattB<hr /></blockquote>What? Hasn't your cheque from Marvel arrived yet? And where is Mr. Doran working now? Hmmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I guess my previous post (and this one) don't contain a sarcasm smiley because there isn't one to do them justice. :p

Seriously though, every industry has backroom deals and "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deals. With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?<hr /></blockquote>I love that people feel the need to post to a thread that they consier clearly Marvel hype to point out that it's purely Marvel hype.

If you don't like hype, then WHY ON EARTH DO YOU READ THESE THREADS?

ctsmith83

06-11-2003, 10:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by David H.:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Don't you know? This site has been renamed Marvel-Hype-rama. No conflict of interest or conspiracies here! <hr /></blockquote>You guys always crack me up...

MattB<hr /></blockquote>What? Hasn't your cheque from Marvel arrived yet? And where is Mr. Doran working now? Hmmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I guess my previous post (and this one) don't contain a sarcasm smiley because there isn't one to do them justice. :p

Seriously though, every industry has backroom deals and "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deals. With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?<hr /></blockquote>I love that people feel the need to post to a thread that they consier clearly Marvel hype to point out that it's purely Marvel hype.

If you don't like hype, then WHY ON EARTH DO YOU READ THESE THREADS?<hr /></blockquote>Did you actually read my post and understand the intent of my statements? I said that "people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills." Does that sound like an accusation on my part, or just an observation from the many posts that I've read here over the years? This is becoming tedious as apparently people (except Elayne and pickard) cannot understand my "eighth grade level" comments.

Elayne Riggs

06-11-2003, 10:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
Was I accusing Newsarama of being a Marvel shill? No. I was pointing out that people may wrongly believe that Newsarama was a shill for Marvel.. Elayne managed to understand the point I was attempting to make<hr /></blockquote>Well, I tend to be a little tuned in to that sort of stuff, as analysis of media bias is a kind of hobby of mine. I do find it all fascinating, when reporters and pundits think they should go for full disclosure and when they don't, what they feel does and doesn't constitute a conflict of interest, etc. I'm often not sure how relevant it is in our relatively small hobby, where the line between amateur and professional reporting is often as blurry as the line between amateur and professional comic book creators, but it does tend to gall me when the mainstream news media does it (which they do way too often).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Elayne certainly understood and she is far more intelligent than an eighth grader. Do you have a bachelors or masters degree Elayne?<hr /></blockquote>Rutgers University class of '79, BA majoring in English and linguistics with a minor in feminism. As if y'all couldn't tell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

- Elayne

ctsmith83

06-11-2003, 10:36 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
Rutgers University class of '79, BA majoring in English and linguistics with a minor in feminism. As if y'all couldn't tell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

- Elayne<hr /></blockquote>Excellent! I thought you might have had a journalism degree as your posts have indicated that you most certainly have had a great deal of training and experience with the written word. :D

ctsmith

GenXMaverick

06-11-2003, 04:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ctsmith83:
It's nice to know that such highly intelligent and observant people find the time in their busy day to post such long and drawn out critiques of my postings.<hr /></blockquote>And if I hadn't, I fully expected I'd get slammed for not quoting you in your entireity. Damned if I do, damned I don't.

I have a great deal of respect for Matt Brady and Newsarama and it bothered me to hear so many people saying that if there were "too many" Marvel articles, then it must be something shady. That's not right and it's very disrespectful to all the honest, hardworking people involved with this site.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In this post, I made light of the fact that people see this site as a Marvel hype machine and that Doran now works for Marvel. People have mentioned this in other postings and I attempted to make a joke about it. Apparently my "eighth grade level" intellect failed to spell that out for you.<hr /></blockquote>Yet it never occurs to you or any of the "Marvel-is-all-bad" posters that part of the issue is that, regardless of whether it's right or wrong, Marvel is very aggressive in its publicizing of its books. I'd love to see this reasoning taken to its logical conclusion and applied to every single media source. I can just see Entertainment Tonight, Access Hollywood and Entertainment Weekly telling Paramount or Fox, "Oh, we can't do too many stories on Star Trek / Star Wars--people might accuse us of taking a bribe! So we'll only do ONE story on it, so that it looks okay to those who might not like us to say anything good about you."

Whereas I don't see other publishers pushing their lines nearly as hard, which they should be--especially DC with the financial capital they have to draw on. Also because DC's line is now stronger than it's been in years. Image, too, is turning out a lot of good books lately and should be making more sound & fury about their line. To get new readers, you need to let them know you're there.

You slam Marvel for ramping up their hype machine and fault Newsarama for reporting what Marvel tells them. Every other publisher should be out giving their new lines as much hype as possible, just like Marvel, to increase their readership. I wish DC was showing as much hype and excitement (as Marvel has) about all the terrific new series DC has coming out this summer because they sure don't sound like they're very enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is contagious. DC (and Image, etc.) need to create buzz for their books--that's what publishers do. Just ask the hype machine behind the Harry Potter books.

And that's where you and I are disagreeing--Marvel incessantly drums up hype (I'm not saying they're right or wrong) and you accuse Newsarama of being on the take for running a review of Trouble. How many articles have there been at this site on Jim Lee's Batman? There have also been multiple articles on the Graduation Day series and the spinoffs from that. Yet when there are several DC articles appearing, nobody accuses this site of having a pro-DC bias.

You say Marvel gets more coverage than any other publisher? And it's because of the sheer number of articles? Did you count them before just speaking out? I went to Newsarama's main page, scrolling down to the bottom of the page and making hash marks for most of the publishers. There were more than a few single articles on just one publisher which I didn't count. But I think I got all the "major" companies. Here's the tally I came up with:
Marvel-- 16
DC-- 15
WizardWorld-- 6
CrossGen-- 3
Fantagraphics-- 3
Dark Horse-- 3
Dynamic Forces-- 3
Image--2
IDW--2
Oni--1
CastleRain--1

Note that the total number of articles on smaller independent publishers (and some I skipped counting to save time) comes to 18. Marvel has 16. DC has 15. By using your own method of merely counting articles, Newsarama has been giving indie publishers more articles on their site than DC or Marvel. I guess that means they must be on the take from independents. NOT.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In this post, I gave a nudge to Matt about the Marvel hype (again) and that his former co-worker now works at Marvel. I then posed the question to Matt that because of some of the overly positive articles that have been printed here, some people may accuse them of being shills for Marvel. Was I accusing Newsarama of being a Marvel shill? No. I was pointing out that people may wrongly believe that Newsarama was a shill for Marvel.<hr /></blockquote>Kind of like how the Republicans would bring up that some people may believe that Clinton is an immoral, sick pervert because he had sex with Lewinsky. No, you didn't say it--but you definitely reinforced that perception.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm a little bit uncertain as to how you want me to approach this. Do you want me to sift through all the posts here and on The Pulse and then provide links to them to show you that other people have accused both sites of being hype-machines?<hr /></blockquote>Oh please. Like I need you to show me online posts from crazed comic book fans and their paranoid conspiracy theories. That's like trying to find STD's at an orgy. :rolleyes: And while you're at it, get Scully and Mulder on the phone--I need the address of the installation where Marvel Comics helped the government stash the flying saucer.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Elayne managed to understand the point I was attempting to make:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Some people would assume it from the fact that one of Newsarama's founders is now employed at Marvel, and one of the site's regular columnists is currently freelancing for them. But I think Newsarama does cover the other publishers more or less in proportion to their sales.<hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>Elayne's last comment observes that "Newsarama does cover the other publishers more or less in proportion to their sales," which in fact contradicts people's paranoid perceptions. And you're basing your defense of giving those perceptions credence by sarcastically agreeing with them on that last statement? There is one huge difference between what Elayne posted and what you did: she acknowledged people may think so, but then acknowledged that in reality "Newsarama does cover the other publishers more or less in proportion to their sales." Agreeing with people's wrong perceptions without acknowledging they're mistaken only serves to make people feel validated in spreading rumors of bribery and payoffs.

Look at it this way: how would you feel if someone came to the site you worked on and started saying these things about you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You have read way too much into my statements. You seem to see my statements as an all out attack on both websites and that I'm hurling accusations left and right about bribes. I think you need to step back and re-read the posts in the proper context. If you cannot understand my "eighth grade level" statements, then perhaps you aren't my intended audience. Elayne certainly understood and she is far more intelligent than an eighth grader. Do you have a bachelors or masters degree Elayne?

I realize that I have now approached the length of your posts with this post. You appear to have taken my statements and turned them into a witch hunt, which was not their intention. That's just my observation.<hr /></blockquote>Rich Johnston has reported rumors with his redlight/greenlight method which turned out to be wrong. Those people wrote to him because the rumors he reported and suggested might be true were damaging or hurtful to them personally and professionally. You don't have to start the rumor to hurt someone and their reputation; merely saying it looks like it's true, whether you believe it or not, can hurt someone.

But go ahead and nudge-nudge, wink-wink, while good people get accused of doing things they didn't do. (God forbid you deny it--then you must be guilty) Since you didn't actually say they did it, you just pointed out that it looks bad, then that makes it okay. And since it's not true, then why should it bother you? Yeah, real funny stuff. Until someone does it to you...then you might feel a little differently about thinking it's so humorous.

jawaplumber

06-12-2003, 12:29 AM

Whoops, forgot all about this, didn't have time to look at it when it first went up on the site.

Basically, yes, there is an excess of TROUBLE articles on Newsarama. And can you blame them? I mean, look at how many people post on these TROUBLE threads? Isn't that the whole point of a website, you wan't people to come look at it and talk about it? But I can understand how that might mystify some folks, since they are usually the ones who also don't understand why Marvel hypes their product so much :rolleyes:

Bill Jemas IS watching, people. And he's laughing his ass off. If you don't want him to win, then just ignore him.

Personally, I can't wait to read TROUBLE no. 1 :)

jawaplumber

06-12-2003, 12:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pariah:
Pet peeve time. I hate the term "Upstate New York". Can we define the location of this series a little bit more clearly? I mean if you listen to DOWNSTATE New Yorkers, the term Upstate refers to anywhere from Bill & Hillary's house to Niagra Falls. Now if this series were set in the Finger Lakes or so I'd buy it, because the location would mean something to me. But cheaping out on the Upstate term is like saying Houston is somewhere nearby Dallas. God, New York State is so much bigger geography wise than the city, can we get some respect here.<hr /></blockquote>Unlikely. There's the NYC metro area, which usually encompasses Westchester, Rockland and Putnam Counties, but get above that it's considered "upstate" by the folks who work in NYC. Even Ulster and Orange, only a few hours' drive, are "upstate" to us. And the "upstate" legislators in Albany have often shown very little respect for the City-dwellers and -commuters, at least financially, so I think the divide, which is easily as much about politics as about geography, is destined to continue. That said, I saw a very cool documentary about the Hudson River last night, and I now want to live and work in Troy. :)

- Elayne (calls her Bronx neighborhood "south Westchester")<hr /></blockquote>I live in Dutchess County. Plain and simple, anything north of NYC is "upstate" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

ctsmith83

06-12-2003, 01:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GenXMaverick:And that's where you and I are disagreeing--Marvel incessantly drums up hype (I'm not saying they're right or wrong) and you accuse Newsarama of being on the take for running a review of Trouble.<hr /></blockquote>Have I accused Newsarama of being on the take?
Let's see... I said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What? Hasn't your cheque from Marvel arrived yet? And where is Mr. Doran working now? Hmmmm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>This statement has been explained to you as being sarcasm. The "winky" indicates it was said in jest. You do not seem to understand this.

Then I said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?<hr /></blockquote>This statement says that people may wrongly believe that Newsarama pumps Marvel product based on the number of pro-Marvel articles that have appeared over the last few years. Others have posted on these boards that they felt that Newsarama was too pro-Marvel. I do not subscribe to that belief and my usage of the word "wrongly" indicates that I do not believe it. You do not seem to understand this either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GenXMaverick:
You say Marvel gets more coverage than any other publisher? And it's because of the sheer number of articles? Did you count them before just speaking out?<hr /></blockquote>Here we go again. I have not kept a running tally of the number of Marvel articles over the last few years. The movement of the site to ViewAskew has resulted in the loss of many of our postings and the articles that generated them. You did a count of the current articles, which would mean that at this very moment the article count is pretty even between DC and Marvel. We have now had, what, five articles on Trouble. We also had a large number of articles about the Tsunami line. Was there an even number of DC articles when Tsunami was rumbling across the net?

You know, you really have taken this whole thread way too seriously. You like to put words in my mouth and twist my statements to allow you to attack the '"Marvel-is-all-bad" posters.' You are also under the mistaken impression that I am one of those posters.

Let's take a look at one of my quotes again:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />With the amount of Pro-Marvel hype that has been displayed on this site for the last few years, is it any surprise that people might wrongly believe that you were Marvel shills?<hr /></blockquote>Now, to me, that looks more like a pro-Newsarama statement than an anti-Newsarama statement (note the word wrongly). Feel free to continue with your conspiracy theories and rabid attack of my statements, but I think you've beaten your horse to death and you just can't seem to understand what I've been saying...

danzo

06-12-2003, 06:50 AM

so, anyway.... it can't be the May and Ben (etc.) of Spidey-fame. the time period's all wrong. unless some nasty villain aged them sometime in the last 30 years, Aunt May would only be about 50 now and she sure looks alot older than that.
of course one has to wonder just when does this story take place? let's see: a reference to Vietnam; infers that that conflict is still happening, but then there's a reference to the 'stang being old- hmm, looks like a '67 or '68 (i forget the detailing on each, pretty similar) which makes sense in relation to the clothing as some of the styles are from the 80's or later....but not to the Vietnam comment. it's so confusing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
hmmm, maybe this is what the 'no editor' thing with epic means, no more slaving to internal consistency or logic....

J Wyatt

06-12-2003, 07:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeForgeo:
Well, I screwed that post up. Let's try this again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hdefined:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:

A lot of stuff
<hr /></blockquote>A little weird that you go all out to defend yourself now, but I think I pointed out what a lot of people are agreeing with: there's been an excess of Trouble articles on this site. That's all.

And it's pathetic.<hr /></blockquote>There are THREE articles about Trouble on the main page, and one of them is specifically concerning the Philedelphia Wizard World convention. There are four if you count the "Jemas Talks Trouble" link if you scroll down the page long enough.

How is that an "excess of articles"?<hr /></blockquote>How many other issues on the front page have four articles about them?

DeForgeo

06-13-2003, 10:47 AM

How many other news items have had that many subsequent updates to them?

If anything, you should be angry at Marvel on choosing to release so many press items about the comic. All Newsarama is doing is reporting it. Just like every other comics news service.

TTROY

06-13-2003, 11:31 AM

well then it could be called an editorial choice not to put out a story every second Marvel gives out a dribble of info...
There was no reason to have a review since other titles have never gotten the same treatment...
One of the other big new stories this week warranted a follow up the Fantagraphic storys...

another one which should have gotten one here but seems to have been overlooked was the replacement for Kirk on JSA...it was left to Pulse to report that.

When it comes down to it is little decisions like those which help the perception that newsrasma is Marvel-centric even though they may not be.

Again perception is half the battle ask gary groth ask the creators on the Superman title now....

Jonny King Kong

06-13-2003, 05:40 PM

Hey, this looks kinda good. I might end up buying it. I just hope that it is Peter's parents. Makes it much more interesting.