Stuart Moore's A THOUSAND FLOWERS, part 15 - Marvel's Laff-A-Lympics [Archive]

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MattBrady

04-08-2003, 11:26 AM

<center><a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Thousand_Flowers_index.htm"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flowers_banner.jpg" width="475" height="75" border="0"></a></center>

<center>A THOUSAND FLOWERS</center><center>Comics, Pop Culture, and the World Outside</center><center>Installment 15</center><center>by Stuart Moore</center>

Marvel’s Laff-a-Lympics

The year: 1984. Marvel Comics released its first mega-crossover, featuring virtually all its core characters: Secret Wars. Written by editor-in-chief Jim Shooter, it promised to have lasting consequences for the entire Marvel Universe. It also ushered in an era, at both companies, of frequent crossover events, which either provided the ultimate in superhero thrills or constantly screwed up ongoing storylines across the regular titles. Depending on how you look at it.

In an interview given at the time, Shooter described the idea as a logical evolution for Marvel. “It’s an idea that was created when Stan Lee started the Marvel universe and had characters all in a consistent universe and always running into each other and reading about each other in the papers and so on. Sooner or later, it had to happen.”

Slick PR, on par with Bill Clinton at his finest. But I don’t believe it.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/sw1covercrop.jpg" width="250" height="202" border="0" align="right">In his introduction to the 1992 Secret Wars trade paperback, Tom DeFalco, Shooter’s successor at Marvel, blamed the project on a big toy licensing deal. “Of course, the toy company only wanted to use our major heroes and villains in their toy line. They also wanted an editorial concept which could tie them all together. We supplied that idea by creating the first company-wide crossover in the history of comics.”

Clever, clever revisionist history. But it’s all part of the cover-up.

There’s also the general wisdom that DC had planned Crisis on Infinite Earths first, but the two companies working the way they do, Marvel was able to run with the idea and get Secret wars out a year earlier. This is the most credible explanation yet -- but no sale.

I’ve uncovered the real story. This isn’t one of those left-wing conspiracy nut theories like that war stuff last week, either. This is the real deal.

Secret wars was a blatant ripoff of Yogi’s Ark Lark.

What -- you ask, eyes wide with wonder -- was Yogi’s Ark Lark?

In 1972, ABC had a rotating spot in their Saturday morning cartoon lineup called The ABC Saturday Superstar Movies. They were only an hour long -- stretching the term “movies” a bit -- but they included a funny-animal version of Robin Hood; bizarre remakes of Lost In Space, Bewitched, and Nanny and the Professor; the suspiciously sleazy-sounding Gidget Makes the Wrong Connection; and Hanna-Barbera’s Yogi’s Ark Lark, featuring Yogi Bear and a small army of HB characters.

Hanna-Barbera holds a dubious place in the history of animation. They produced some very popular work (The Flintstones, Tom & Jerry) and more than one generation of fans grew up on their science-fiction heroes (Space Ghost, The Herculoids), their funny animals (Yogi, Huckleberry Hound, etc.), their superhero adaptations (Fantastic Four), and, of course, Scooby-Doo.

But HB’s main talent was in making the stuff as cheaply as possible. Especially in the ‘60s cartoons, footage was reused constantly; characters’ heads rarely moved with their mouths, or their bodies with their heads; smoke and explosions blotted out any complicated-to-draw action. And when Hanna-Barbera got onto a good thing, they milked it till it was drier than dry.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/yogigangtitle.jpg" width="320" height="240" border="0" align="left">In 1972, they stumbled on a basic entertainment concept: When you don’t have Something New, put two Something Olds together. Better yet, put a whole pile of Something Olds together. Hence the premise of Yogi’s Ark Lark: a huge collection of (mostly interchangeable) old HB characters, all sailing around (in, uh, the air) aboard an ark commanded by Captain Yogi Bear. Magilla Gorilla. Wally Gator. Quick Draw McGraw, Top Cat, Boo-Boo. Atom Ant, Baba Looey, Snagglepuss, Augie Doggie, Pixie & Dixie. It was such a great idea, it quickly became a series -- Yogi’s Gang.

(There’s a corollary to the Put Old Things together concept: Put Something Old in a New Genre. Hanna-Barbera tried that, too, with Josie and the Pussycats In Outer Space. As a little kid, I thought Josie was kind of hot, and I loved anything set in outer space. But even I knew this was a really, really bad idea.)

Yogi’s Ark Lark/Gang was pretty disjointed stuff. It came off like a bad reunion movie where the actors were always jockeying for screen time; oh, Christ, Atom Ant’s losing it, yeah, yeah, quick, write something for him to do. But it apparently did well enough to inspire such team-up classics as Scooby Doo’s All-Star Laff-A-Lympics and Yogi’s Space Race (see Josie, above).

Secret Wars was the same idea. It put them all together: Captain America. Spider-Man. The X-Men. Iron Man, the FF, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel. And, of course, the villains. Doctor Doom. Magneto. Galactus…

Wait a minute. The villains…

This is where -- sorry, comics guys -- Marvel was hopelessly behind the curve compared with Yogi’s Ark Lark. See that picture of Doggie Daddy and the other HB critters accompanying this article? Notice how queasy they look, how deeply upset? How sad?

Why? Why they look so sad?

Pollution.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/yogisgang.jpg" width="320" height="240" border="0" align="right">Yes, Yogi’s Gang featured such painfully expository villains as Mr. Waste, Lotta Litter, and Mr. Smog. Week after week, those defenders of the Earth, Yogi, Snagglepuss, and Mister Jinks, fought The Greedy Genie, Mr. Vandal, and the Sheik of Selfishness -- all in a shameless attempt to capitalize on the ecology trend of the early ‘70s. Or maybe in an honest attempt to be socially responsible and educate the children. Depending on how you look at it.

Compared to that level of (a) cynicism or (b) misguidedness, Secret Wars wasn’t even in the park. Doctor Doom? Klaw, Master of Sound? Same old, same old. Even the Beyonder couldn’t hold a candle to Mr. Bigot.

This column usually takes the stance that it’s good to reflect the real world in popular fiction. That when comics, or any other entertainment medium, wanders too far away from the cultural zeitgeist, it starts to grow insular and die.

But, uh, there’s an art to it. And if you’re gonna wind up with Mr. Smog…maybe it’s better to stick with Crusher Creel, the Absorbing Man.

Next time around, we’ll continue our penetrating, incisive expose of the history of comics with a look at how the Vertigo imprint was inspired by The Thirteen Ghosts Of Scooby-Doo, in an act of (a) brilliant reimagining or (b) blatant plagiarism.

Depending on how you look at it.

**

Stuart Moore’s comics work: The beautiful trade paperback collection of ZENDRA: HEART OF FIRE, my epic science fiction series from Penny-Farthing Press, is out now; ask for it by name!

Stuart Moore’s comics work: Go to <a href="http://www.rocketcomics.net" target="_blank">RocketComics.net</a> , <a href="http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1958" target="_blank">this at CBR</a> and <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000094" target="_blank">this here, at Newsarama</a> for a look at LONE, launching in summer 2003, with a special 10-page stand-alone preview story in ROCKET COMICS: IGNITE, Dark Horse’s contribution to Free Comic Book Day in May.

Then visit my message boards at <a href="http://www.joequesada.com" target="_blank">JoeQuesada.com</a> and we’ll continue this discussion there.

See you in 14 days -- and really, I was just kidding about the Vertigo thing…

Grendel Prime

04-08-2003, 11:57 AM

I would like the last five minutes of my life back, Stuart Moore.

RDuarte

04-08-2003, 12:10 PM

I love cartoons. My four year old nephew loves coming to my house to watch cartoon video after cartoon video. And I mean the good stuff, not the crap on TV today. I mean seriously, I enjoy anime as much as the next guy, but BEYBLADE? A cartoon that revolves around TOPS? Have we actually sunk that low?

I never thought anyone else would have a memory for the cartoons of yesteryear as good as mine. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. I just wish you were serious about that Scooby Doo article.

Hdefined

04-08-2003, 12:19 PM

I seem to remember having watched one Ark Lark movie about a Spruce Goose or something. That's as far as I can remember, I thought I had taped it but I guess not, but I do remember it was really cool. Eh. Childhood. At least I think Snidely and Muttley were the baddies of that one.

saiyanspider

04-08-2003, 12:20 PM

I dunno I love crossovers. I loved the ECW WCW vs. WWF, Capcom vs. SNK, Marvel vs. Capcom, Square and Disney, etc. Something about seeing to characters that you never normally see together, together either fighting, or teaming up. As much as people grip and moan, team ups sell well for a reason. I like the article and found it funny but I don't think team-ups and crossovers are the end of civilized society as we know it.

Chris Hunter

04-08-2003, 12:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
I would like the last five minutes of my life back, Stuart Moore.<hr /></blockquote>Well, that depends on how you look at it.

Julio Diaz

04-08-2003, 12:41 PM

Too young for ARK LARK or YOGI'S GANG, but I was all about the LAFF-A-LYMPICS as a little kid...

04-08-2003, 12:52 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
I would like the last five minutes of my life back, Stuart Moore.<hr /></blockquote>Did you read it thrice?

J.C. Bakken

04-08-2003, 12:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
I would like the last five minutes of my life back, Stuart Moore.<hr /></blockquote>So you can re-read?

What if... Grendel Prime had NOT read Stuart Moore's: A Thousand Flowers?

This sertenly calls for speculations. :D :p

J.C. Bakken

04-08-2003, 01:02 PM

But, back on topic, before Matty fires my behind.

All though an interesting theory, I'm willing to by the fact that what Jim and Tom said; to be true.
What came first of those idea's marketing or story telling, we can only guess, we mere mortal readers.
But, what I do know is that Secret Wars was an terrific idea, and it was really, really great as a kid, to see all those heros stranded together. But, today my only faulting with it is that the vilains didn't share much except belife htat they would win, and banded together just for that reason.
But, that has always been the way, vilains have almost naver been friends, and when they have, they've always been shown to have their own secret agenda.
Maybe that's what happening in Thunderbolts right now, the befriending, as I don't read it anymore I don't know. But, it scertenly was what was happening in The FranklinWorld, in the Becoming Vilains storyline in Thunderbolts.
They are now 5-6 friends working together behind the scenes to take oveer the world.
Just like Friends, really.

NerveTonic

04-08-2003, 01:18 PM

Two silly crossovers took place in the early '70s that made a strong impression on me, and convinced me of the inevitability of a SECRET WARS-type omni-crossover.

In Daredevil, c. #97, we saw a crossover of DD, the Black Widow, Captain Marvel, Moondragon, Thanos (and Black Messiah! and Angar the Screamer! and Crusher Creel's "dutch stepbrother" Ramrod!).

In Avengers, c. #118, we saw a crossover as the Defenders and the Avengers teamed up to fight Dormammu AND Loki, who weilded the Evil Eye (the Cosmic Cube's "dutch stepbrother"). The Eye amplified the evil of Dormammu and Loki to such a climax that every creature in the universe felt the reverberations -- Dracula drank a bicarb, Adam Warlock on Counter-Earth adjusted his garter -- everybody felt it.

So at the dawn of the '70s, yes, crossovers started crossing over all over. It was a mania!

NerveTonic

04-08-2003, 01:43 PM

Was there precedent before Yogi? I say yes.

Tolkien. Bilbo, Gandalf, Tom Bombadill. Different stories, yet they crossed over. Was The Smith of Whooten Major in Middle-Earth continuity, I wondered. Was Farmer Giles? Tolkien included giants in some of his stories, but not in Middle-Earth...gah! Still, it seemed the more you read Tolkien books, the more continuity you discovered. And then you get that darn Silmarillion, where everything seemed planned-out from the beginning! As if Tolkien's grand scheme preceeded his creation of any of its parts...

Another precedent:

Phil Silvers.

I'm serious. TV personalities seemed to crossover from show to show -- not just actors playing roles. When Phil Silvers appeared on BEVERLY HILLBILLIES, he brought more than just himself as an actor. He also brought the Phil Silvers persona. And Ed Wynn carried his stage persona from role to role, as did WC Fields and Mae West. Many of Charlie Chaplin's fans -- who stood by him through international scandal in his private life -- felt heartbroken and betrayed when he wiped off his little moustache and played a character other than the Little Tramp. (Groucho knew better than to repeat Chaplin's mistake.)

Vaudevillians had all toted their stage personae from rolre to role. In Elizabethan theater, each actor reprised a "type" over and over. And this came from commedia del arte theater, were the same cast improvised the same characters over and over from role to role.

So we were accustomed to the same characters crossing over from one story to the next. But when did we first imagine the characters CONTINUED from one role to the next -- as if Phil Silvers the huckster character in MAD MAD MAD MAD WORLD was the *same guy* who played Jethro for a fool, and when did he change his name from "Bilko?"

NerveTonic

04-08-2003, 01:46 PM

Heh heh, I'm going to bring the topic back to the subject of WAR in a minute.

Why did we develop the idea that crossover characters exist in a continuous history?

Big Oil.

Raphe Cheli

04-08-2003, 01:49 PM

Wasn't Secret Wars preceeded by the equally mundane "Contest of Champions" in 1982?

In his attempt to write yet another clever article, Mr Moore again fails with the facts (see A Thousand Flowers chapters 1-14).

NerveTonic

04-08-2003, 01:54 PM

Why did Americans grow so ready to imagine characters occuring in continuous universes? I don't really blame Big Oil. Not directly.

I blame TV branding, and war. And the drugs might have helped.

Okay, drugs have never been quite as good as THE YELLOW SUBMARINE promised they would be. I as a little kid hoped that if I took the right drugs, I might actually float on a stream with plasticene porters with looking-glass ties. I as a little kid took apart all kinds of radios and pasted them together hoping it might take me to Monster Island so I could hang out with Godzilla's son, as the movie promised. I never found a hat so big as to allow me to enter Liddsville, nor a wardrobe so deep as to lead me to Narnia.

I wanted to enter another world. It seemed possible, in the '70s.

It seemed wise, in the '70s!

Anything to escape Vietnam.

Troy Brownfield

04-08-2003, 02:07 PM

I personally tend to trace the big comics team-up crossovers to the annual JLA/JSA events that kicked off in the '60s. They grew larger over time, often throwing in groups like the Seven Soldiers of Victory, the Freedom Fighters, and even The Legion. With that set-up, something like Crisis was an inevitable event.

NerveTonic

04-08-2003, 02:28 PM

TV really did set the precedent for crossovers, well before Yogi.

Remember Norman Lear continuity? From out of ALL IN THE FAMILY sprang MAUDE, and from there sprang GOOD TIMES. THE JEFFERSONS sprang from ALL IN THE FAMILY. These shows had continuity.

THAT's the origin of crossover mania: branding. NBC didn't launch GOOD TIMES simply because America loved Ester Role as Florida. NBC launched GOOD TIMES because they wanted to spread around that sexy Norman Lear stank.

And it worked!

Check out that Fonzie stank. Kept the HAPPY DAYS zombie alive long after some redneck shoulda shot it in the skull. Launched LAVERNE AND SHIRLEY, or did you think America just lived Shirley Williams? Jumpstarted MORK AND MINDY like no amount of cocaine could possibly sustain. People even endured JOANIE LOVES CHACHI (however briefly) just in hope of glimpsing America's favorite Winkler. On the other hand, no Fonzie appearance was possible in MISTER T AND TINA, so that non-Arnold role for Pat Morita shrivelled like a slug in MSG.

Marvel knew the Dire Wraiths were low, low, low quality properties. Nobody cared about Modame or The Molten Man or Basilysk or Wundarr. Marvel was littered with Crimson Dynamos and Bi-Beasts and Man-Beasts and Man-Wolfs and Man-Things and time-travelling pharoahs, and Barons Strucker and Zemo and Blood, and Hate-Mongers and Badoon.

But just as Carmine Ragusso and Potsie and Jenny Picollo and Mork's son Mirth all survived by association -- however distant from Fonzie -- so might Omac survive by distant association with Peter Parker or Howard the Duck.

Greg

04-08-2003, 02:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I love cartoons. My four year old nephew loves coming to my house to watch cartoon video after cartoon video. And I mean the good stuff, not the crap on TV today. I mean seriously, I enjoy anime as much as the next guy, but BEYBLADE? A cartoon that revolves around TOPS? Have we actually sunk that low?

I never thought anyone else would have a memory for the cartoons of yesteryear as good as mine. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. I just wish you were serious about that Scooby Doo article.
<hr /></blockquote>Wait.
Wait.Wait.Wait.Wait.Wait.Wait.
You mean to tell me you actually hold a candle to cartoons that use recycled animation as crummy as HB was? I saw Yog's Ark Lark. What a piece of trash.(Ironic isn't it?) When I was growing up in the 80's, I remember watching a fair amount of HB cartoons. You can't make me watch it again. People seem to get hung up on their nostalgia and fail to recognize how horrible it is. I used to love watching the cartoon MASK nack in the day, but I bought a video of some of the episodes a couple of years ago and realized how horribly cheesy it is.

So my point is, just because you say Beyblade is so horrible, doesn't mean that some other child, that's right CHILD, thinks its the best thing since sliced bread.

Anders Wolleck

04-08-2003, 03:29 PM

What is this crap?

It doesn't make any sense or any impact. What is it for?

Is Stuart Moore a name I am supposed to know or care about? Why are his incoherent ramblings posted on the most popular comic book site?

NerveTonic

04-08-2003, 04:07 PM

I laugh like hell at the really old Yogi Bear cartoons.

In his earliest days, Yogi's cartoons were about the voices and the timing and the hepcat wordplay. The lowrent animation was irrelevant.

In the later days, when he became a model citizen and civic leader -- and when he stopped rhyming -- man, it was like seeing Charlie Chaplin in the wrong moustache.

Falkner

04-08-2003, 04:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Raphe Cheli:
Wasn't Secret Wars preceeded by the equally mundane "Contest of Champions" in 1982?<hr /></blockquote>All of this talk of lameness...is nothing appreciated because of the fact that you enjoyed it as a kid? Hell, Contest of the Champions and Secret Wars as simple minded as they are, were probably read and enjoyed at the time by everyone on this board. Since I started reading comics at 8 years old, I am of the opinion that SOME of superhero comics SHOULD be strictly for kids. Granted, I LOVE Bendis' Daredevil, but no one under the age of 14 could enjoy it.

DarqueGuy

04-08-2003, 04:55 PM

C'mon, Secret Wars was much closer to Laff-a-Lympics than it was Yogi's Ark. You had Captain America's team (the Scooby Doobies), the X-Men (the Yogi Yahooies) and Dr. Doom's group (naturally, the Really Rottens). Wrap it all up with the Beyonder as an omnipotent Snagglepuss and there ya go.

Michael

04-08-2003, 05:02 PM

Hmmm...in my mind (which may be adlepated and misremembering), Contest of Champions was the first limited series and threw several current heroes into the mix prior to Secret Wars. SW did it on a bigger scale, but CoC was first, I thought and started the whole cross-over and limited series trend.

I also thought that the Mutant Massacre storyline running through X-Men shortly after issue 200 was another keystone to the inter-company crossover, of which later came the grand-baby Secret Wars.

I've never thought of Secret Wars as starting this stuff, but being a natural evolution of those two events I mentioned above. To continue the "Jose in Space" theme, of course Secret Wars in space was just the opposite, SW on Earth aka Secret Wars II which was just the most blatant act of evil ever perpetrated.

grphxkindaguy

04-08-2003, 05:05 PM

Regardless of what Moore thinks, I greatly enjoyed both CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS and SECRET WARS.

They were my introduction to the vast Marvel Universe, when at the time all I could afford to buy w/my meager $1 a week allowance was like, maybe two comic books?

I first started reading Spiderman, so I knew all his friends & foes (from around the early #200's of Amazing Spiderman. Roger Stern/John Romita Jr. era).

But when I read these two series, WOW!!!

Who were all these other cool characters?

Who were the X-Men?

Who was this new Iron Man?

Who was Galactus & Ultron?

Why was Wolverine so vicious, to friend & foe alike?

Who knew the French had their own superhero?

just magic. I still love rereading those old books every so often.

:)

JAG

04-08-2003, 05:07 PM

I loved Secret Wars (in its day) I dont think it holds up that well in todays day and age. But when I was young. It was great. I also enjoyed those old Yogi cartoons. I have vague memories of Yogi's Ark but it was fun when I was that age.

grphxkindaguy

04-08-2003, 05:08 PM

:mad:

Secret Wars 2 = the WORST limited series EVER created.

....and that's saying something!!!

Michael P

04-08-2003, 06:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Michael:
I also thought that the Mutant Massacre storyline running through X-Men shortly after issue 200 was another keystone to the inter-company crossover, of which later came the grand-baby Secret Wars.<hr /></blockquote>Except Secret Wars came first.

BLACKBRIAR

04-08-2003, 06:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Troy Brownfield:
I personally tend to trace the big comics team-up crossovers to the annual JLA/JSA events that kicked off in the '60s. They grew larger over time, often throwing in groups like the Seven Soldiers of Victory, the Freedom Fighters, and even The Legion. With that set-up, something like Crisis was an inevitable event.<hr /></blockquote>This is a really good point.

A Thousand Flowers needs help! Can the writer PLEASE make these columns longer? As it stands now, the summary paragraph at the beginning is as much as you need to read (i.e., there is VERY litte expansion of the topics in the actual text).

Maybe double up the columns or something!

PS--That Clinton slam seemed SO out of place and completely a reaction or effort to appease all the right-wingers who endlessly slagged you over the previous column. (Any appeasement makes you look weak as a writer--generally having an opinion is good and opinions are not objective.) And I completely support your right to insert political commentary (of any slant) into your columns.

DrDoom

04-08-2003, 06:38 PM

why not a secret wars III ?

Duke Stratosphere

04-08-2003, 07:09 PM

I remember watching Yogi's Gang every Saturday morning. I don't know why I didn't have anything better to do. :confused:

My favorite crossover of all time was when Batman and Robin (in the Batman movie, perhaps?) were climbing up the wall and ran into Colonel Klink from Hogan's Heroes:

"Colonel Klink - what are you doing in Gotham City?"

Surreal. :D

Thanks for the distraction, Stuart!

MindTricked

04-08-2003, 07:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DrDoom:
why not a secret wars III ?<hr /></blockquote>Ask Mistah J and Da Q - they know, much like the Shadow.

NerveTonic - dude, you need your own column. Who knew 70/80s TV was all due to Norman Lear and The Fonz? Damn, but that was an entertaining post.

Ah, Secret Wars. I loved it when I was a kid - it helped to get me into comics. Contest of Champions? Did it ever have any repercussions in the normal books? I know SW did - everything from Thing's solo series to Venom (still around, more or less, 19 years later). I also know it caused me to buy every single crossover issue of Secret Wars II, and it simply can't be forgiven for that.

As for today's cartoons vs. the toons of yesteryear? All that stuff was great when I was a kid (born in '73), but a lot of it doesn't hold up anymore, at least not the HB stuff. Looney Toons, on the other hand, actually got better the older I got, simply because I could finally understand all the pop-culture references.

Modern toons were pretty much ruined by parent groups about a decade ago, and it's a tragedy kids won't enjoy what us old people would refer to as "the good stuff," simply because they now need "educational" entertainment. Bah. Give me some nice, violent, funny-as-hell and probably poorly-animated toons any day over most of the crap today. If it's Saturday or a weekday morning, and a cartoon is on, it's not for anyone but smaller kids - it's completely unpalatable to older kids (like myself).

Ummmm... I had a point, I'm sure, but, much like Secret Wars II, I lost my focus not long after I started.

Buzzowl

04-08-2003, 07:35 PM

I have decent taste. I like "Alias" and "Green Arrow" and Alan Moore.

And I loved Secret Wars when I was a kid and don't apologize for it. I think it's a lot of fun and it really did have lasting effects on many characters in the M-U, most especially Spider-Man and the FF.

Someone mentioned the JSA/JLA cross-overs. MAN, did I get into those! They used to be available in those small 'digest' books and were so much fun to read.

Those really did set the stage for the crossovers of the 80's and 90's. Personally, I think it's too bad that crossovers are out of vogue. Each can and should be judged on its own merit. A good crossover now and then can actually be fun.

But it requires actual work on the part of the editor-in-chief. And we can't have that, can we.

Todd VerBeek

04-08-2003, 08:57 PM

Crossovers have a long and spotty history, of course, dating back (at least) to "Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein". And I have to admit to a certain fondness for the Yogi's Ark mega-crossover (including the environmentalist theme that I took so strongly to heart).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I would like the last five minutes of my life back, Stuart Moore.<hr /></blockquote>I'm reminded of the legendary Marvel Zombie who asked that Marvel stop publishing "Groo the Wanderer", because he didn't like the series, but he had to buy it every month because... well, because he collected every title Marvel published.

Evidently there are Newsarama Zombies now. Whose complaints are rendered even more pointless since A) they aren't paying any money for the columns, and B) skipping them won't leave a "hole" in their collections. Sadly, there seems to be a strong correlation between not "getting" Stuart's essays and not grasping how foolish it sounds to complain about their existence.

MattBrady

04-08-2003, 09:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
Evidently there are Newsarama Zombies now.<hr /></blockquote>TO ME, MY NEWSARAMA ZOMBIES!!!

MattB

shakey

04-08-2003, 10:01 PM

I can remember another ABC superstar "Movie" that also featured a lot of the King Features Heroes, including Flash Gordon Mandrake, and Popeye. In fact, Popeye was the ultimate hero delivering the final blow against the villian. It was on a submarine.

Harry Tzvi Keusch

04-09-2003, 01:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Two silly crossovers took place in the early '70s that made a strong impression on me, and convinced me of the inevitability of a SECRET WARS-type omni-crossover.

In Daredevil, c. #97, we saw a crossover of DD, the Black Widow, Captain Marvel, Moondragon, Thanos (and Black Messiah! and Angar the Screamer! and Crusher Creel's "dutch stepbrother" Ramrod!).

In Avengers, c. #118, we saw a crossover as the Defenders and the Avengers teamed up to fight Dormammu AND Loki, who weilded the Evil Eye (the Cosmic Cube's "dutch stepbrother"). The Eye amplified the evil of Dormammu and Loki to such a climax that every creature in the universe felt the reverberations -- Dracula drank a bicarb, Adam Warlock on Counter-Earth adjusted his garter -- everybody felt it. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry, small mistake there. The DD crossover was in # 105 (and is conected to Iron Man # 55, Avengers # 125 and Captain Marvel # 25-33).

The Avengers / Defenders crossover ran through 8 issues - Avengers # 115-118 and Defenders # 8-11.

04-09-2003, 01:59 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
Evidently there are Newsarama Zombies now. Whose complaints are rendered even more pointless since A) they aren't paying any money for the columns, and B) skipping them won't leave a "hole" in their collections. Sadly, there seems to be a strong correlation between not "getting" Stuart's essays and not grasping how foolish it sounds to complain about their existence.<hr /></blockquote>...Matty, tell you what: let me write a column. I guarantee I'll raise enough of a stink just making observations that even Grendel Prime'll be begging for Stuart to start posting daily columns! I'll even include a weekly section dedicated to why the Q&J Debacle needs to be put out of our misery, and why Rich Johnston needs to have his fingers removed so he can't type! That, and at least one stab at CrossGen over their exclusivity garbage!

All this, and more! Right here on the next OM My God!, right here on this channel!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
That Clinton slam seemed SO out of place and completely a reaction or effort to appease all the right-wingers who endlessly slagged you over the previous column.<hr /></blockquote>...Blackie, at the risk of losing my 100 Honky points, bro, it really wasn't that out of place. If anything, it was a deserved slam. I mean, really, how can you respect a leader who, when he fools around on his wife, doesn't do so with someone who's at least better looking that his wife? I mean, swapping stogies with a White House aide is one thing, but with an Oompa-Loompa like Monica Lewinsky???

The man had no taste, and deserves the target on his back.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DrDoom:
why not a secret wars III ?<hr /></blockquote>...Already been done in the pages of FF quite some time back. The FF find that the Beyonder has simply created a new Earth, with him as God. There's even a Beyonder Bible and a Beyonder Koran(*). However, the story was so bad I can't even begin to recall how it ended. I think the Beyonder went to work with Elvis at a 7-11 in Oregon or something.

(*) Which I believe dropped into this world by accident, and is the version being used by Osama Bin Laden to justify the Taliban's crimes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
I would like the last five minutes of my life back, Stuart Moore.<hr /></blockquote>...Sorry, no refunds.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MattBrady:
TO ME, MY NEWSARAMA ZOMBIES!!!<hr /></blockquote>...Sorry, Matty, but when Mikey left for Marville, the curse was broken. However, we have some used Zuvembies that you can use. Interested?

Wolverine

04-09-2003, 05:17 AM

What does everyone have against Secret Wars II. I quite liked it

04-09-2003, 05:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wolverine:
What does everyone have against Secret Wars II. I quite liked it<hr /></blockquote>...Several things. In no particular order:
</li> It followed too closely on the heels of Secret Wars I.
</li> The plot was worse than Secret Wars I and the plot of Secret Wars I stank on liquid nitrogen.
</li> The whole "Molecule Man being a threat to every cosmic being in the MU" subplot was about as believable as Pee Wee Herman beating The Rock in a real wrestling match.
</li> For an omnipotent being, the Beyonder is really a dipshit. I mean, Peter Parker having to show him how to take a leak?? Befriending a mafia godfather? Trying to turn himself into a real human???
</li> The writing overall was a clear sign that Shooter's terminal acne had begun to eat into his brain.
</li> And the art by Milgrom and Leialoha's worst work of their entire career. Even crayon scribblings by a 5-year-old Oliver Coipel would have been more acceptable.

...And there's more reasons, but I'll leave the gaps for others to fill.

DrDoom

04-09-2003, 06:12 AM

I like Secret wars I better then Secret Wars II : to talk in forumtalk Secret II went offtopic too quickly; Too much highpower guys passed the comics like the Celestials. In Secret Wars I DrDoom was the major ennemie who sought the major power and gained it and almost cured himself except from his soul who was never healed unless he had fried his mother in the graphic Novel (Triumph and Torment)
But the beyonder got him back in the FF because he had no grunge against him and he had no memory of it. That is why he started the second Wars because he missed something from the humanity kind of side : he learned two basic concepts good vs evil and splited them in half and put them in two spheres. Because of the internal struggle with the Superheroes about Mutants the X-men went on their own. So infact there were 3 sides: Evil, Good and the X-men (Neutral)
That is what the Beyonder forgot: you can't place things in heaps of good and Evil. Some are more evil then the other (Kang & Doom) and some are more good then the other (Avengers & X-men & Fantastic Four).
There are also major powers at work like the Galactus: He was the one who was the major think that made DrDoom think of getting a higher power.
Galactus left very fast the globe and started his quest on his own : his search to forfil his hunger but DrDoom had also his hunger: he is powermad. All he want is power. Nobody can get even powerfull then his. So he went after the beyonder to get his and went after Galactus to get his.

that is how i see it

What is Contest of Champions? I never read those...

JimHughs4

04-09-2003, 09:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
...And there's more reasons, but I'll leave the gaps for others to fill.<hr /></blockquote>Here's what I consider to be the big one- SWII tied into paractically every series Marvel put out over the course of it's run. SWI, while it had ramifications, was a self-contained story over twelve issues. you didn't have to buy anything other than SW to get the story.

And while Contest of Champions was the first crossover mini-series, SW was the first to have lasting repercussions. I think CofC had the Thing in the hospital for one issue while SW introduced the black costume, the Thing series, Colossus and Kitty Pryde's breakup, etc. JH

little kon-el

04-09-2003, 11:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Raphe Cheli:
Wasn't Secret Wars preceeded by the equally mundane "Contest of Champions" in 1982?

In his attempt to write yet another clever article, Mr Moore again fails with the facts (see A Thousand Flowers chapters 1-14).<hr /></blockquote>the contest of champions wasn't a crossover, in a sense that the later comics were a crossover.

for one reason, there was a sense of scale with secret wars that there wasn't with champions. secret wars influenced the entire line of comics, champions was basically a brawl. you had several teams of heroes and different interractions with each team. instead of a battle, it was charater interraction that drove the story.

the other thing is the branding of it. secret wars created toys based around the story as well as crossovers between books within their line that were "official" crossovers and which need to be all read (including the 12-issue miniseries) to understand the full story.

champions had neither of these things. champions was a crossover, but not a "crossover event." there's a distinction, because i could miss this crossover, but i could not miss a crossover event because of it's lasting impact on the entire line.

little kon-el

NerveTonic

04-09-2003, 11:39 AM

[/QUOTE]Sorry, small mistake there. The DD crossover was in # 105 (and is conected to Iron Man # 55, Avengers # 125 and Captain Marvel # 25-33).

The Avengers / Defenders crossover ran through 8 issues - Avengers # 115-118 and Defenders # 8-11.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Thank you for the clarification. It's been nearly thirty years, so you'll understand my limited accuracy.

The little "c." I put before the issue numbers stands for "circa" meaning "around" or "in the neighborhood of."

DrDoom

04-09-2003, 12:18 PM

Is Contest of Champions like StreetFighter or Like Marvel Vs Capcom on Console?

NerveTonic

04-09-2003, 12:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
This column usually takes the stance that it’s good to reflect the real world in popular fiction. That when comics, or any other entertainment medium, wanders too far away from the cultural zeitgeist, it starts to grow insular and die.

But, uh, there’s an art to it. And if you’re gonna wind up with Mr. Smog…maybe it’s better to stick with Crusher Creel, the Absorbing Man.<hr /></blockquote>Crusher Creel, the Absorbing Man, was not about absorbtion. He was not the personification of absorbance. Crusher Creel was an exaggerated human character, not too too far from dis guy who woiks out wit' me in my gym in Bay Ridge. If you want a character who is but an avatar and a cipher for absorbancy, I guess you'd half to hunt down the long lost Absorbine Junior -- "Best New Character Name - 1957"

Mr. Smog loved smog. He was crazy about smog. Couldn't get enough smog. Did his love of smog imply something about his past, about his relationship with his mother -- or with his father, Mr. Smog the Elder? Did Mr. Smog have some secret desire that he never stated, but which colored all his dialogue and influenced all his behavior? If Willem Dafoe won the role of Mr. Smog in the motion picture, YOGI's ARK: THE RECKONING, where would Willem go to discover the inner psychological workings of Mr. Smog?

No damn workings. Mr. Smog is nothing but smog.

Contrast Heatmiser and Snowmiser. Anyone over ten years old found them insipid, of course (until sophmore year in college, when they seem cool again for about three weeks). Yet Heatmiser and Snowmiser were SO MUCH COOLER than Mr. Smog.

They had dimension! I know I know, they didn't have much dimension, but they did have some.

See, they were siblings -- complete opposites yet so similar. A rivalry exists between them on a mythic scale. Each is driven so strongly by their childlike selfishness and vanity that they make obviously asinine decisions, and only the greater wisdom of Mother Nature can make them behave.

The characters gain (an illusion of) dimension by reflecting each other. Regardless of their magical power and cosmic stature, they are driven by familiar, understandible human motives.

Not so, Mr. Smog.

Not so, any of the bad guys on CAPTAIN PLANET AND THE PLANETEERS, either.

See, international industrialists don't love smog. Nobody loves smog (except Hedora). "Love of smog" is not a human motive, isn't sensible, isn't understandible. Smog isn't delicious like a pickanic basket, and filling the world with smog is not a delightful challenge like stealing a pickanic basket.

International industrialists MAYBE love profit. International industrialists MAYBE love their particular industry, and strive towards its success. International industrialists MAYBE think their own work serves mankind. International industrialists MAYBE see their job as a job, work to satisfy the board of directors and investors, but are really more interested in their own private lives. But they don't love smog.

So Mr. Smog is LESS a reflection of reality than Crusher Creel.

Cartoons that show evil environment-murderers actually subvert the effort to solve the degradation of the environment. Mr. Smog is a straw man! Mr. Smog is a straw man! He is just a distraction from the real problem.

The real problem being, as usual, Big Oil.

And Saddam Hussein being another straw man -- a bad man, for sure, one who must face justice -- but whom we are using as The Symbol of All Terrorism. Yanking down his statue and his administration is not the end of the so-called War on Terrorism. Don't be fooled.

No, I don't accept the argument that YOGI's ARK and CAPTAIN PLANET at least introduce the topic of environmental damage, and that's something. If there is some way to use Hanna-Barbera cartoons to introduce kids to environmentalism, YOGI's ARK was not it. Like THE SECRET WARS, the cause of YOGI's ARK was some deal in some boardroom somewhere, among people who would never watch the cartoon or read the comic, who were working out a business deal that had nothing to do with the story.

Bad way to generate story.

Apply that to the War in Iraq as you see fit.

NerveTonic

04-09-2003, 03:24 PM

Anybody ever read any Johannes Huizinger?

JimHughs4

04-09-2003, 03:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by NerveTonic:
Anybody ever read any Johannes Huizinger?<hr /></blockquote>God bless you :D

Raphe Cheli

04-09-2003, 04:57 PM

I've noticed that numerous people have mentioned how much they liked Secret Wars (and Contest of Champions) when they were a kid. I remember being blown away by the cover to issue 1 (great Zeck art), and I was really excited by the idea of the series (to me, it was just comics, though -- never bought a toy).

So, what series now (or in the past 5 years) can a 10-year-old kid read and get all excited about? What Marvel or DC series can get somebody excited about their respective universes? I remember picking up Fantastic Four because of the changes that were going on in Secret Wars, and a friend of mine started to buy The Thing, for the same reason.

Although I hate the phrase "children are our future" (could anything be more obvious -- old people certainly aren't our future), for the comic industry, that's very much true, but the big events from the big two have attracted little or no new readers. I bet Secret Wars brought in a lot of new readers to Marvel Comics. No?

Robert Donovan

04-09-2003, 05:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wolverine:
What does everyone have against Secret Wars II. I quite liked it<hr /></blockquote>...Several things. In no particular order:
</li></li> It followed too closely on the heels of Secret Wars I.</li> The plot was worse than Secret Wars I and the plot of Secret Wars I stank on liquid nitrogen. <hr /></blockquote>Secret Wars I had a PLOT!? Every page of that thing stank of 'I'm making this crap up as I go along' worse than the entire clone saga.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> </li> The whole "Molecule Man being a threat to every cosmic being in the MU" subplot was about as believable as Pee Wee Herman beating The Rock in a real wrestling match. <hr /></blockquote>Also one of the worst things in Secret Wars I, for that matter. Of course, Shooter might have been able to convince people that the Molecule Man is a really powerful and interesting character - Which he potentially IS - if he'd mainly done it by showing us the Molecule Man doing really powerful and interesting things, rather than, as he did, mainly showing us scenes of characters standing around saying 'Wow, the Molecule Man is a really powerful and interesting character!' 'Yes, he is!'

<blockquote>quote:<hr /></li> For an omnipotent being, the Beyonder is really a dipshit. I mean, Peter Parker having to show him how to take a leak?? Befriending a mafia godfather? Trying to turn himself into a real human???</li> The writing overall was a clear sign that Shooter's terminal acne had begun to eat into his brain.</li> And the art by Milgrom and Leialoha's worst work of their entire career. Even crayon scribblings by a 5-year-old Oliver Coipel would have been more acceptable.

...And there's more reasons, but I'll leave the gaps for others to fill.<hr /></blockquote>Or maybe not. As <a href="http://ape-law.com/GAF/Page24" target="_blank">Gone And Forgotten</a> pointed out, listing everything wrong with Secret Wars II amounts to reprinting it, and who'd take responsibility for that big a crime?

Robert Donovan

NerveTonic

04-09-2003, 05:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Raphe Cheli:

So, what series now (or in the past 5 years) can a 10-year-old kid read and get all excited about? What Marvel or DC series can get somebody excited about their respective universes? I remember picking up Fantastic Four because of the changes that were going on in Secret Wars, and a friend of mine started to buy The Thing, for the same reason.<hr /></blockquote>At first, i thought you were asking a rhetorical question.

Remember that Bugs Bunny cartoon when he and Daffy are competing on a vaudeville stage to see who could "wow" the audience the most? And Daffy dresses up as Satan, guzzles gunpowder and gasoline, swallows a lit match, and explodes everywhere? Bugs applauds, concedes that daffy is the winner, and Daffy accepts a standing ovation -- the only thing being, it's a trick you can only do once. Then a bunch of demons drag him into the bowels of hell. My third favorite cartoon ever.

I feel that way about crossover events. Readers were CAPTIVATED by the idea of all characters everywhere getting together and squaring off, all their titles supposedly affected by the central event. Crisis, Secret War, Laff-a-Lympic -- even Valiant's UNITY.

But I think The Crossover Event has lost its attraction, to old readers or to new. Everything seems to crossover with everything nowadays, so the stunt seems commonplace, not an event at all. FRIENDS occasionally crosses over with other TV shows; how much more mundane can you get? I know a place online where you can read stories about Race Bannon having sex with Tarzan; in the 21st century, everyone crosses over with everyone.

And y'know, as the years go by, not only do the crossovers grow less eventful -- they also seem less well-written, more hacked out. Maybe writers know in their hearts that crossovers are cheap stunts, beneath their dignity, and not worth the waste of craft.

I'm still holding out for that big HELIX crossover event.

Burke 0011

04-09-2003, 11:13 PM

Contest of Champions with its intro of INTERNATIONAL heroes and JR JR art? Pretty entertaining.

As for Secret Wars, what some newer readers don't understand was its impact at the time. Back then, there were NO internet comic book pages for advance info on stories and such, and the only advance comic info you got was if you were lucky enough to have a direct sales comic STORE close enough to you, as a large amount of sales then were still through newstands. Hell, I used to get loads of my comics from my local 7-11.

So just picture yourself reading through your latest issuse of Spidey or Hulk or FF and then, with no warning, the main characters DISAPPEAR at into this mysterious structure at the end of the issue, and then you flip the page and see the ad for SECRET WARS...... I'm telling you, the impact was MASSIVE back then. Whatever it lacked in story (it did kind of 'sputter' to an ending), it certainly was fun.

In terms of being 'serious', I'd defintely give that award to DC for Crisis.

BLACKBRIAR

04-10-2003, 12:26 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
...Blackie, at the risk of losing my 100 Honky points, bro, it really wasn't that out of place. If anything, it was a deserved slam. I mean, really, how can you respect a leader who, when he fools around on his wife, doesn't do so with someone who's at least better looking that his wife? I mean, swapping stogies with a White House aide is one thing, but with an Oompa-Loompa like Monica Lewinsky???

The man had no taste, and deserves the target on his back.<hr /></blockquote>I am not disputing the validity of the criticism, but geez wasn't the time for THAT slamming oh say FOUR years ago??????

That Clinton slam was there totally to appease the right-wingers that bitched at Moore last week--and quite frankly I have lost any respect I have had for him as a writer because of it. He doesn't even have the balls to stand up for his POV.

A war commentary in the column is/was appropriate since your country is actually currently at war.

A Clinton era jibe is just as out of place as a Jimmy Carter slam--which I am sure the right-wingers would love, since I noticed none of them wrote in this week over the Clinton jibe. But if anyone says anything negative about the Bush Jr administration...

Stuart Moore

04-10-2003, 09:50 AM

I make it a policy not to explain myself, but... the Clinton mention was a throwaway joke. The whole column is a faux-conspiracy theory; the Clinton line was just meant to echo what his (similarly conspiracy-minded) detractors said about him all the time, particularly during his first term.

I love old Bill. Yes, he was a political creature of the top order, but he did a hell of a lot of social good below the radar -- reorganizing tax structures to benefit the poor, for instance -- and he knew how to keep the lid on international situations without pissing off our allies. All of which has been undone to an insane degree by his successors.

And despite the conservative outrage you get at him having lied to Congress (admittedly, not a great practice): Compared to the bigger lies, shameful corporate favoritism, destruction of the environment, and destruction of social programs and municipal infrastructures being orchestrated by the present administration (deep breath), I think I can forgive a small fib about a blowjob. Hell, if it'd bring back a sane, responsive government in this country, I'd give him a little oral satisfaction myself.

Cool?

--Stuart

NerveTonic

04-10-2003, 12:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
Hell, if it'd bring back a sane, responsive government in this country, I'd give him a little oral satisfaction myself.

Cool?
<hr /></blockquote>OOOOOOOH hoo hoo oh no you di'n't! DAYUMN!

We live in a mad world. The truth's the same as lies. The falcon cannot hear the falconer, and no one is watching the watchmen. There is no Christ, there is no Santa, there is no Joe Damaggio, and the light at the end of the tunnel is the "C" train.

That said; I do believe you have found a solution to all our problems, Stuart.

If only mankind would listen to reason...!

NerveTonic

04-10-2003, 12:52 PM

Because you know, everyone is saying "Support our troops," but no one is DOING anything about it.

BLACKBRIAR

04-10-2003, 11:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
I make it a policy not to explain myself, but... the Clinton mention was a throwaway joke. The whole column is a faux-conspiracy theory; the Clinton line was just meant to echo what his (similarly conspiracy-minded) detractors said about him all the time, particularly during his first term.

I love old Bill. Yes, he was a political creature of the top order, but he did a hell of a lot of social good below the radar -- reorganizing tax structures to benefit the poor, for instance -- and he knew how to keep the lid on international situations without pissing off our allies. All of which has been undone to an insane degree by his successors.

And despite the conservative outrage you get at him having lied to Congress (admittedly, not a great practice): Compared to the bigger lies, shameful corporate favoritism, destruction of the environment, and destruction of social programs and municipal infrastructures being orchestrated by the present administration (deep breath), I think I can forgive a small fib about a blowjob. Hell, if it'd bring back a sane, responsive government in this country, I'd give him a little oral satisfaction myself.

Cool?

--Stuart<hr /></blockquote>Cool, I am glad you had the strength to stand up for what you believe in.

However, you must have been keenly aware of the timeliness of the Clinton slam.

DocSamson27572

04-11-2003, 01:31 AM

I loved (and still do) Secret Wars. I have the collection. Mike Zeck was the (partly) artist so it was a good looking book. Plus it had one of the best scenes involving Cap A; Wolvie refuses to follow Cap as leader until Thor steps up and tells the little runt that he would follow Cap into Hades without a thought. Yay Cap. Boo Wolverine!
Plus it was great seeing Spidey kick the X-men's butt all over the place when he found out they were going to team up with Magneto.
And what about the scene where Hulk is holding up (barely, great thing that leverage angle)a mountain that Dr Doom's dropped on the heroes!!
Secret Wars is a classic!

04-11-2003, 06:36 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
 Hell, if it'd bring back a sane, responsive government in this country, I'd give him a little oral satisfaction myself.<hr /></blockquote>...Yes, but would you swallow?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yo! Dis originally posted by my homey, BLACKBRIAR:
[QUOTE]I am not disputing the validity of the criticism, but geez wasn't the time for THAT slamming oh say FOUR years ago??????<hr /></blockquote>...Hey, Hitler did some nasty things 60+ years ago, and we're still ragging him for it. And Nixon did some dumb things too 30 years ago, and we've not exactly forgiven him for it, have we?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
[QUOTE]That Clinton slam was there totally to appease the right-wingers that bitched at Moore last week--and quite frankly I have lost any respect I have had for him as a writer because of it. He doesn't even have the balls to stand up for his POV.<hr /></blockquote>...Yeah, but IIRC Stuart never really goes into explaining himself unless things have really gotten out of hand. The justification, as I see it, is to allow everyone to interpret the satire as they deem fit.

And if they don't get it, they know where they can put a surplus Stratovision tower...:-)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
[QUOTE]A war commentary in the column is/was appropriate since your country is actually currently at war. <hr /></blockquote>...Yes, and kicking butt quite nicely. I wonder how soon we'll find that Saddam's sharing a room in Libya with Idi Amin now?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
[QUOTE]A Clinton era jibe is just as out of place as a Jimmy Carter slam...<hr /></blockquote>...Do NOT get me started on that worthless sack of shit peanut farmer, Blackie. If there's one politician I love slamming more than William Proxmire, Dick Cheney, Walter Mondale and Stuart Symington, it's Mr. Peanut. The guy was our most worthless president ever.

Excuse me, I have to go wash my hands now...

NerveTonic

04-11-2003, 12:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
[QB...Hey, Hitler did some nasty things 60+ years ago, and we're still ragging him for it. And Nixon did some dumb things too 30 years ago, and we've not exactly forgiven him for it, have we?[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>OM, man. A guy smashed his car on a guard rail on an interstate highway. My sister was in the passenger seat. Her neck snapped, and she died. The driver, her supposed fiancee, dragged her corpse into the driver's seat and walked home and went to bed. Didn't even call the cops to mention the accident, just left her there to cool and grow rubbery in the rain -- then denied he'd been the driver.

That was ten years ago! I know I should probably let bygones be bygones, but y'know, I still bear kind of a grudge against the guy. It just seemed like such a lousy thing to do.

Blowjobs, on the other hand, I forgive fairly quickly. I myself have lied about blowjobs, and while I admit the iniquity of my lie, I don't think anyone calls me evil for it.

So it takes a little while to get over your sister lying dead in a ditch. Probably takes a bit longer to get over genocide. But the crime of denying you got a blowjob -- I think the statute of limitations is a bit shorter for that, don't you?

Hey, did anybody see MAX? Man, I thought it was BRILLIANT -- an excellent warning. I now feel like I have some tiny understanding how a human could ever become such a monstrosity. Kinda like Manson. "Go do something witchy for me," was not simply an instruction to go commit a crime; it was also encouragement to go make ART. Encouragement can be bad, REALLY bad!

Still, insofar as Stuart encourages blowjobs, I support him.

BLACKBRIAR

04-11-2003, 07:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
...Hey, Hitler did some nasty things 60+ years ago, and we're still ragging him for it. And Nixon did some dumb things too 30 years ago, and we've not exactly forgiven him for it, have we?<hr /></blockquote>So we're comparing Clinton to Hitler now? Try to get a little perspective there OM. You are making internet cranks look bad.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
Do NOT get me started on that worthless sack of shit peanut farmer, Blackie. If there's one politician I love slamming more than William Proxmire, Dick Cheney, Walter Mondale and Stuart Symington, it's Mr. Peanut. The guy was our most worthless president ever.
<hr /></blockquote>OMie, OMie, OMie. Carter worse than your current president? Heh heh heh heh.

You really need to stop listening to the propaganda of your country. The whole "war" that you revel in, will put your country dangerously in needless debt while allowing many of your high level officials to inappropriately profit from their connections to weapons manufacturers.... If there was any more proof needed...notice how everyone in your country hates Sadaam (cuz we all know how evil he is) BUT no one talks about Osama anymore (is anyone even trying to find him to stand trial for his crimes?)--and he actually attacked your own country.

It is too easy to slam old regimes and ignore what is going on NOW.

And Americans wonder why no one takes you guys seriously.

04-12-2003, 03:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
OMie, OMie, OMie. Carter worse than your current president? Heh heh heh heh. You really need to stop listening to the propaganda of your country.<hr /></blockquote>...Blackie, keep in mind - I lived thru the 70's. Runaway inflation, OPEC crude oil price raping, the neutering of our national defense, the Iranian hostage fiasco, disco...all of it during Carter's debacle. I was there, and the ignorant inbred did zilch to fix anything. Between his stupidity and Walter Mondale's efforts to hamper NASA's efforts to get the Shuttle off the ground before 1980, Carter did more to damage this country that Hoobert Heaver and Warren Harding did during the Depression. At a time when we should have been rebuilding out national pride following Vietnam, Carter allowed the US to sink further into an emotional and moral depression that we're still recovering from.

As I said, you shouldn't have gotten me started on that sack of shit. If only it had been he and not his brother Billy who smuggled plutonium to Libya in his butt...

BLACKBRIAR

04-12-2003, 11:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
OMie, OMie, OMie. Carter worse than your current president? Heh heh heh heh. You really need to stop listening to the propaganda of your country.<hr /></blockquote>...Blackie, keep in mind - I lived thru the 70's. Runaway inflation, OPEC crude oil price raping, the neutering of our national defense, the Iranian hostage fiasco, disco...all of it during Carter's debacle. I was there, and the ignorant inbred did zilch to fix anything. Between his stupidity and Walter Mondale's efforts to hamper NASA's efforts to get the Shuttle off the ground before 1980, Carter did more to damage this country that Hoobert Heaver and Warren Harding did during the Depression. At a time when we should have been rebuilding out national pride following Vietnam, Carter allowed the US to sink further into an emotional and moral depression that we're still recovering from.

As I said, you shouldn't have gotten me started on that sack of shit. If only it had been he and not his brother Billy who smuggled plutonium to Libya in his butt...<hr /></blockquote>No one was disputing that OMie.

I'll say it again and maybe it'll sink in....

It is too easy to slam old regimes and ignore what is going on NOW.

You will never be able to change the Carter administration, but you DO have power to do something about what s happening NOW.

04-13-2003, 10:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
It is too easy to slam old regimes and ignore what is going on NOW.<hr /></blockquote>...No it isn't. You just have to maximize your time and multitask. I mean, seriously, Blackie ol'pal - don't you read your comics on the john like everyone else does?

[allow_that_to_sink_in(true)]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
You will never be able to change the Carter administration, but you DO have power to do something about what s happening NOW.<hr /></blockquote>...Actually, I have nothing against what the current administration is doing in this particular war with one exception. In the previous Gulf War, the gas companies all screamed "EEEK! A war! We must raise gas prices!!" Dubya Sr. immediately called all the heads of all the gas companies in the US and asked one question: "Do you know what the term 'nationalization' means?" Within 72 hours, gas prices had dropped anywhere from 6 to 13 cents a gallon, and didn't bobble for the entire hundred days of the campaign to Basra. If Dubya didn't have Dickhead Cheney's hand up his puppet ass, and the gas companies didn't have their's up Cheney's, we wouldn't be paying $1.50/gal right now when there's enough cheap crude flowing in. The gas conglomerates are raping us almost as bad as Saddam did his people.

Hmmm...could we declare war on ExxonMobil before we stomp France's guts out?