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MattBrady
06-03-2003, 01:08 PM
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<center>A THOUSAND FLOWERS</center><center>Comics, Pop Culture, and the World Outside</center><center>Installment 19</center><center>by Stuart Moore</center>
The Kids in All of Us
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/SWars.jpg" width="250" height="383" align="right" border="0">If you didn’t like Star Wars in 1977, you might as well have just marched yourself off a cliff and saved yourself some pain. I’m serious -- you couldn’t get away from the thing. Toys, games, comics, mall openings: All were suddenly filled with droids, spaceships, women with funny bun-hair, wise fighters in Kung-Fu bathrobes, and asthmatics in menacing black armor. Entertainment journalism hadn’t yet developed into the all-pervasive force it is today, but the Force was with all of us, like it or not.
I was more of a Star Trek fan myself -- enough so that I defended the turgid Star Trek: The Motion Picture when it came out, a couple years later. But this column isn’t about my embarrassing mistakes. It’s about Hollywood’s.
<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=00005 0" target="_blank"> Last time</a>, we discussed the shift in Hollywood, in the early ‘70s, from the big blockbuster movies that had tanked so badly in the ‘60s to cheaper, independent-style films. Star Wars, which itself was made for a modest $9.5 million, proved a catalyst that turned the wheel back in the other direction. In The Devil’s Candy, a fascinating account of the making of the horrific film version of Bonfire of the Vanities, author Julie Salomon discusses the rise of MBAs and money--craziness through the ‘80s:
“Though no one could pinpoint exactly when the insanity had begun, everyone agreed that Steven Spielberg and George Lucas were somehow responsible. When Star Wars and E.T. broke the $100 million mark at the box office, studios became obsessed with the big score. A string of modest successes would no longer be satisfactory -- not with the lure of the jackpot.”
Along with this came a return to “pure entertainment” as a goal in films, turning away from socially-conscious, thematically ambitious works. Some of this was a matter of sanitizing the product to fit new business models, as film critic Pauline Kael pointed out in 1980:
“I think a lot of what’s happened is simply that the movie companies have been able to take the risk factor out of financing movies, by selling them in advance to TV, international TV, cable, Home Box Office, as well as selling them in advance to theaters. They will not take a risk on projects that are not desirable for TV…They are terrified of anything that will not readily satisfy the networks.”
But there were other reasons why the movies shifted toward pure entertainment -- chief among them being that, arguably, they’d gone too far in the other direction. Film historian Peter Biskind put it this way: “[A]fter half a decade of character- or theme-driven movies, unhappy endings, fractured narratives riven by flashbacks and psychedelic dream sequences, Lucas reasserted the pleasures of straightforward, unironic storytelling, along with accessible two-dimensional characters whose adventures ended happily.”
Science fiction writer Tom Reamy was even more direct: “The way to read Star Wars’ success is fairly simple: It’s an overreaction to twenty years of the movies telling us everything is shit and there’s nothing we can do about it…If [Hollywood] starts entertaining again and stops doomsaying the people will be there again.”
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/Lucas.jpg" width="250" height="383" align="left" border="0">George Lucas himself stated very directly in promotional interviews for the film: “Young people today don’t have a fantasy life any more, not the way we did. All they’ve got is Kojak and Dirty Harry. There are all these kids running around wanting to be killer cops. The films they see are movies of disasters, insecurity and realistic violence…I wanted to give young people some sort of faraway, exotic environment for their imagination to run free.”
That sounds like a worthy goal -- and, applied to a single film, it was. But, as always, Hollywood tends to overreact to success, and Star Wars’ success proved chilling to ambitious, socially conscious filmmakers. Peter Biskind describes both sides of the debate in equally blistering terms:
“Lucas said he wanted to make a film for ‘the kids in all of us.’…To infantilize the audience of the sixties and empower the audience of the seventies, to reconstitute the spectator as child, Lucas and Spielberg had to obliterate years of sophisticated, adult moviegoing habits. Star Wars came on the heels of nearly a decade of wise-ass, cynical, self-conscious moviemaking.”
Socially conscious art and thrill-ride entertainment don’t have to be mutually exclusive, of course. Personally, I’m most drawn to genre works that transcend their boundaries, providing the excitement of a spaceship battle, a six-gun fight, or a mafia showdown, while using those tropes to shed light on contemporary issues -- and, hopefully, to reach people who’d never read Finnegan’s Wake, or Infinite Jests, for that matter. In films, that might mean Chinatown, Repo Man, or The Maltese Falcon. In books: Philip K. Dick, Charles Willeford, Stephen King. On television, The Sopranos, Hill Street Blues, or Buffy The Vampire Slayer. And in comics, Preacher, Sandman, Watchmen, X-Statix, American Flagg!, and countless others.
Speaking of comics…
The late ‘70s were dire times at both major comics companies. Bright spots included X-Men, Howard the Duck, and the Englehart/Rogers Detective Comics, but they were pretty thin on the ground. The newsstand market had deteriorated badly, and by most reports, the publishers assumed comics would die out completely soon. Even the printing quality was shot to hell, when plastic printing plates replaced the traditional metal. Nobody seemed to care too much.
By the ‘80s, an entirely new economic factor -- the Direct Market -- pulled comics onto a very different path than the movies were taking. (See installments <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=00003 4" target="_blank"> 13</a>, <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=00003 6" target="_blank"> 14</a>, and <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=00004 6" target="_blank"> 17</a>.) While movies became blander, comics began to blossom, freed from the necessity to provide acceptable content for newsstands.
Like -- well, like almost every decade -- the ‘80s is remembered by comics fans as better than it was. Yes, new publishers provided a haven for quality work, and pushed the majors into new business models. But there was a lot of crap published, too. Pull out any old Amazing Heroes Preview Special and see how much of it is Watchmen and how much is…everything else.
But the Direct Market did make possible a lot of good work. These things come around, of course; the early ‘90s provided a lot of shocks to that system. Changes in the distribution network, in particular, have made it a lot harder for a small publisher to compete on level ground with DC and Marvel.
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/8mm_poster.jpg" width="200" height="300" align="right" border="0">Films cycled back around, too -- in the other direction. Sex, Lies and Videotape and Slacker ushered in a new era of indy filmmaking, jumpstarted by Reservoir Dogs and the new affordability of digital video as a filmmaking medium. The new technologies, including DV and CGI storyboarding, have not only provided a cheaper entry point for new directors, but also a playground for veterans to experiment with smaller films such as Steven Soderbergh’s Full Frontal, David Fincher’s Panic Room, and various films by Joel Schumacher and Richard Linklater.
Oddly, the first Star Wars sequel -- The Empire Strikes Back, released in 1980 -- was a significantly more serious, dark film than its predecessor. Empire wasn’t exactly a ground-breaking analysis of social issues; it maintained the thrill-ride look and pace set by the first film. But Empire placed its protagonists in a generally grimmer world and played with some weighty metaphors for the hard choices adulthood thrusts upon us. In most ways, it was more of a ‘70s film than Star Wars.
The trend didn’t last. With Return of the Jedi (1983), the Star Wars series embraced the empty ‘80s moviemaking ethos full-bore. The original film may have had pure thrills as its main goal, but it had its core a resonant coming-of-age story -- a large part of the reason it appealed so universally. Jedi, on the other hand, squandered every possible dramatic or metaphoric opportunity in favor of selling teddy bears.
Fortunately, things do come around. There’s an old saying: “If you don’t like the weather, just wait a while.” It’s every bit as true of films and comics. And hey -- if we let every little disappointment put us off our entertainment of choice, most of us would never have stuck with comics this long. Right?
**
Very special thanks to my wife, writer Liz Sonneborn, for advice and access to her library of film-criticism books this time around. Speaking of which, here’s the
Bibliography:
Pat Aufderheide, “Pauline Kael on the New Hollywood” (1980), from CONVERSATIONS WITH PAULINE KAEL, edited by Will Brantley (University Press of Mississippi, 1996)
Peter Biskind, EASY RIDERS, RAGING BULLS (Simon & Schuster, 1998)
Peter Biskind, “The Last Crusade,” from SEEING THROUGH MOVIES, edited by Mark Crispin Miller (Pantheon, 1990)
Tom Reamy, “Everything Is Shit and There’s Nothing We Can Do About It!: Thoughts on the Star Wars Phenomenon” (1977) from TRUMPET #12, Summer 1981
Julie Salamon, THE DEVIL’S CANDY: THE BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES GOES TO HOLLYWOOD (Houghton Mifflin, 1991)
“George Lucas on STAR WARS,” SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW #24, February 1978
Stuart Moore has been a writer, a comics editor for Vertigo and Marvel Knights, a kitchen worker, a book editor, and the nighttime manager of the Lawrenceville, NJ Woolworth's curtain department. He has won the Will Eisner award for Best Editor 1996 and the Don Thompson Award for Favorite Editor 1999.
My current comics work: JUSTICE LEAGUE ADVENTURES #22, coming in August, features a nice stand-alone story spotlighting Green Lantern and Hawkgirl; details and a great cover image at <a href="http://www.dccomics.com/comics/dc_display.html?cm_dc_itemCode=jladv22&month=August" target="_blank">http://www.dccomics.com/comics/dc_display.html?cm_dc_itemCode=jladv22&month=August</a> . Next up is LONE, a new future-western series from Dark Horse/Rocket Comics in September. More details on these and other new projects, including GIANT ROBOT WARRIORS, VAMPIRELLA, and PARA, at: <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=00026 1" target="_blank">http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=00026 1</a> . See you in two weeks…
L'Zoril
06-03-2003, 08:40 PM
i just love star wars. it's just a great story and told in a great way. i'm guessing the favourite for everyone must be empire strikes back. definitely, it's mine. much darker yet as captivating as the 1st one. it all ads up to one of the greatest lines in cinema: luke , I'm your father. Damn! It's an excellent movie
L'Zoril
06-03-2003, 08:41 PM
hey! I got 1st post! woo hoo!
apoehler
06-03-2003, 11:33 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by L'Zoril:
<strong>i'm guessing the favourite for everyone must be empire strikes back.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not for everyone. The first one, the one Lucas apologists like to call 'A New Hope' is my favorite. Empire is decent but flawed by being 'part one of two' where the 'part two' is a weak conclusion, and by having the group splintered.
Star Wars works on its own. Everything else was a desperate attempt to shovel in unnecessary backstory and/or sequels. Not that they're uniformly bad, but most everything since Empire has been a disappointment.
MindTricked
06-03-2003, 11:33 PM
I was all of 4 (maybe) when Star Wars hit, and a couple of years later, I knew (even then) it would be my favorite movie. I did not like Empire at all - I was 7, and it was too far over my head. At 10, I loved Return - hell, the movie was (successfully) aimed at my age group.
Years later, I came to love and appreciate Empire and shake my head at the lost opportunity that was Return. While Star Wars is and will most likely be forever my favorite movie, Empire is the better film of the two. Attack of the Clones, with better editing (we all know the junk), could have and should have been better than Return.
Ah well - art and vision suffer for finances, in movies as well as all media.
bluedevil2002
06-04-2003, 12:13 AM
I go with Star Wars as my favorite of the bunch. I haven't quite been able to rank the new ones in with the original trilogy. I can't decide if I like episodes one and two better or not than five and six. Regardless, 2 was better than 1. In fact, it could have easily taken top spot with just better acting.
I mean, come on, Lucas got James Earl Jones for Vader. Can't he get at least one of the actors playing Anakin to be decent?
L'Zoril
06-04-2003, 01:30 AM
mmm... my favourites are in order:
1 - Empire strikes back
2 - star wars
3 - return of the jedi
4 - attack of the clones
5 - the phantom menace
empire for me was tops because of yoda (the best actor in the entire movie), the luke i'm your father line, the luke loosing his hand scene and cloud city.
star wars... well it's star wars. that should be more than enough
i know ROTJ had the ewoks, but I saw the movie when I was 10 so I liked them. and it was pretty sad when that ewok died and the other hug him.
Attack of the clones had a freaking great battle and excellent action scenes. Unfortunately, that was all. And I hated the fighting Yoda. I had this image of Yoda as a serene, calm jedi master who would talk instead of fighting and if he fought he would just use the force, not jump all around like some mokey on drugs. That killed the movie for me. But it was damn exciting how they taunted me every time something happened near anakin's arm. My god his arm!
Last and definitely least, the phantom menace. Jar Jar... The council... thanks but not thanks... MAybe if I had 10 JAr Jar would appeal to me but.. nah! who am I kidding? That orange large forg or whatever it was definitely ruined the movie.
Well, that's it.
Wolverine
06-04-2003, 07:52 AM
Empire - Great Movie
Star Wars - Excellent
Attack of the Clones - Wonderful
Phantom Menace - Great movie
Return - It just didn't work
Am I the only one that liked Episode 1
pickard
06-04-2003, 09:33 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Wolverine:
<strong>Empire - Great Movie
Star Wars - Excellent
Attack of the Clones - Wonderful
Phantom Menace - Great movie
Return - It just didn't work
Am I the only one that liked Episode 1</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No. I agree completely with your list.
Return works wonderfully in quite a few spots, the opening rescue and the confrontation with the Emperor especially. It's got some problems, but I still enjoy the movie.
aphterburn
06-04-2003, 09:38 AM
Stuart, you had me until you called Star Trek: TMP turgid. That movie was good and thought-provoking, unilike bang-band-whiz SW (no offense). You still feel the same way about the movie?
Stuart Moore
06-04-2003, 09:57 AM
I love STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE -- kind of the way you love a close relative who keeps betting all their money away in Vegas, or an incontinent old pet that pisses all over the house but you can't bear to get rid of it. It was great to see those characters back together again at the time, and there's some nice stuff with Kirk at the beginning, when he's so desperate to get his command back that he just runs over all the new characters to do it. But, for me at least, it turns into a dramatic mess really quickly. It's so slow and really amateurish in spots, both in acting and direction. I thought they really learned all the right lessons from it when they made WRATH OF KHAN.
Best,
Stuart
Bagheera
06-04-2003, 11:21 AM
I'll never forget how my Dad and I were forced to sit on the front row to see "Empire" because the theater was so packed. The desolation of Hoth and the number of Star Destroyers on a screen that large (especially to an 8 year-old) left a lasting impression.
Hell, it's been my favorite film since I was a kid. ("Seven Samurai" is a close second.)
These days I actually feel kinda' cool and privileged to have seen all three originals in the moviehouses.
And, kids, I probably shouldn't say this...
But "ST: The Motion Picture" is the absolute BEST movie to get high to. During my college days, it was THE undisputed favorite ... even beating out "2001," "Easy Rider," "Apocalypse Now," "Mad Max," "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly," and "Excalibur."
(Although, in those days, we were also pretty partial to "Reservoir Dogs" and "True Romance"...)
xdemon
06-04-2003, 11:38 AM
Empire is my favorite!
2. New Hope
3. ROTJ
Menace and Clones just were unbearable nightmares. I will see Ep. III in the theaters simply because I have seen them all on the big screen, but I'm not really looking forward to it.
BoyWonder
06-04-2003, 11:41 AM
1 Empire Strikes Back
2 Star Wars
3 Return of the Jedi
4 Attack of the Clones
5 The Phantom Menace
The original 3 films actually had decent pacing, I can watch them again and again. The new films have great action sequences hidden amongst bland boring story. Repeat viewing of the new films involves me fast forwarding to the fights so that I can miss the dull bits out.
utiti77
06-04-2003, 01:01 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
The trend didn’t last. With Return of the Jedi (1983), the Star Wars series embraced the empty ‘80s moviemaking ethos full-bore. The original film may have had pure thrills as its main goal, but it had its core a resonant coming-of-age story -- a large part of the reason it appealed so universally. Jedi, on the other hand, squandered every possible dramatic or metaphoric opportunity in favor of selling teddy bears.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, like in that scene in Jedi when Luke finally confronts his father on the AT-AT platform. Man, that ewok dancing, throwing flowers and being disgustingly cute in the background is really bothersome. I particularly hate it when Vader hugs him and say "man, if you were on sale at a mall near that empire base, I would just buy you and all your brothers, because you're just extra-sweet". And don't start me on Luke and Vader's final duel on the Death Star. The Emperor saying "join me in the dark side... and don't forget to buy ewok teddy bears while you're at it, kid_!" every two words was just annoying. And when Luke removes Vader's mask and discovers the face of an Ewok with a headband reading "Hey kids ! Buy my action figure" , well it was just tasteless.
When you think that some people *dare* say that these scenes are actually beautiful, thought-out, meaningful and moving pieces of drama crafted with talent by the great Lawrence Kasdan, you just have to wonder *what* film they were watching, uhn Stuart ?
Stuart Moore
06-04-2003, 02:21 PM
Actually, I was talking about the way JEDI (a) totally drops the idea that there's a price for Luke prematurely abandoning his training; (b) gives Harrison Ford, who gave probably his best-ever performance in EMPIRE, virtually nothing to do; (c) drags out the Luke-Vader-Emperor fight for ages, with absolutely no twists beyond the one you're expecting; and (d) completely squanders its one big twist -- that Luke and Leia are brother and sister -- on an incredibly dull balcony scene, completely devoid of dramatic tension. Oh, and there were the really fake-looking muppets in Jabba's cave, too.
But your mileage will, invariably, vary. That's why it's an opinion column.
Best,
Stuart
willyd
06-04-2003, 03:47 PM
What exactly was the point of this column? That Star Wars was fun? How does this tie-in to comics? That, like films, comics might get good again?
This is prime real estate Newsarama is giving up. I'd like to see this series replaced with more "Looking Back" columns about older comics and storylines.
Jeremy Williams
06-04-2003, 05:24 PM
Panic Room? 8MM? :D
Elayne Riggs
06-04-2003, 05:59 PM
*taps Newsarama microphone* Are we back yet?
Oh, good!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Stuart Moore writes:
<strong>I was more of a Star Trek fan myself -- enough so that I defended the turgid Star Trek: The Motion Picture when it came out, a couple years later. But this column isn’t about my embarrassing mistakes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Feh, I still like ST: The Motion Picture. Or, as I used to call it (swiping the title from a sf story) "The Great Space F*ck." I couldn't have been the only one who mourned the loss of Persis Khambatta a few months back.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>George Lucas himself stated very directly in promotional interviews for the film: “Young people today don’t have a fantasy life any more, not the way we did. All they’ve got is Kojak and Dirty Harry. There are all these kids running around wanting to be killer cops. The films they see are movies of disasters, insecurity and realistic violence…I wanted to give young people some sort of faraway, exotic environment for their imagination to run free.”</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ironically, hot on the heels of this (well okay, a few years later) we saw mainstream superhero comics turn away from fun and more towards grim 'n' gritty. Way to buck a trend, comics!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>“Lucas said he wanted to make a film for ‘the kids in all of us.’…To infantilize the audience of the sixties and empower the audience of the seventies, to reconstitute the spectator as child, Lucas and Spielberg had to obliterate years of sophisticated, adult moviegoing habits...”</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know if it was as complicated as all that. Seems to me it's just another swing of the pendulum, something that's fairly cyclical in any entertainment business. Consumers have short entertainment-life spans and memories, you can keep swinging that pendulum back and forth ad nauseam and still make money. The trick is, of course, knowing when to swing it, or being the one causing it to swing.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Like -- well, like almost every decade -- the ‘80s is remembered by comics fans as better than it was. Yes, new publishers provided a haven for quality work, and pushed the majors into new business models. But there was a lot of crap published, too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, how many more bad black and white riffs on Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtles could the industry stand? :) Seriously though, while there was a ton of crap (as there always is) I do remember there also being a lovely variety of work for sale in the shops, just like there is today.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Pull out any old Amazing Heroes Preview Special...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't without shedding a tear. :)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>With Return of the Jedi (1983), the Star Wars series embraced the empty ‘80s moviemaking ethos full-bore. The original film may have had pure thrills as its main goal, but it had its core a resonant coming-of-age story -- a large part of the reason it appealed so universally. Jedi, on the other hand, squandered every possible dramatic or metaphoric opportunity in favor of selling teddy bears.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I liked Return of the Jedi. It was a little too backstory-heavy and yeah, a bit cute here and there, but "cute happy funny aliens" are my thing, baby.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>My current comics work: JUSTICE LEAGUE ADVENTURES #22, coming in August, features a nice stand-alone story spotlighting Green Lantern and Hawkgirl; details and a great cover image at <a href="http://www.dccomics.com/comics/dc_display.html?cm_dc_itemCode=jladv22&month=August" target="_blank">http://www.dccomics.com/comics/dc_display.html?cm_dc_itemCode=jladv22&month=August</a> .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like to refer to this issue as "the June rent." :)
- Elayne
Elayne Riggs
06-04-2003, 06:04 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by L'Zoril:
<strong>i'm guessing the favourite for everyone must be empire strikes back.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God, no. First of all, it wasn't a complete story; it had no satisfying sense of closure whatsoever. Secondly, it was indeed dark - way too dark and depressing for me to enjoy its escapism. I liked some of the settings but it sooo didn't hold together for me. To this day I won't watch Empire unless it's preceded and followed by the other two movies. Whereas I watch A New Hope every single time it comes on TV.
- Elayne
Jeffrey D. Smith
06-04-2003, 06:35 PM
Quoting Tom Reamy. And from the original Trumpet. Yay.
Jeffrey D. Smith
editor of the sf fanzines Phantasmicom, Kyben and Khatru, late-60s-to-mid-80s
Charles RB
06-04-2003, 08:42 PM
I never liked Star Wars.
Todd VerBeek
06-04-2003, 08:57 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by willyd:
<strong>What exactly was the point of this column? That Star Wars was fun? How does this tie-in to comics? That, like films, comics might get good again?
This is prime real estate Newsarama is giving up. I'd like to see this series replaced with more "Looking Back" columns about older comics and storylines.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, it wouldn't a Thou-Flow discussion without at least one "what is this?" post. :rolleyes: (And for the record, web "real estate" is not a finite resource that we run out of. If you don't like it, don't read it.)
If you assume that "fun" and "good" are necessarily the same thing (meaning "not fun" must be "bad"), then yes, you've entirely missed the point. It was more about one kind of movie (the escapist, straight-forward not-much-to-think-about, big-budget, blockbuster, crowd-pleaser kind) largely displacing another kind of movie (the serious, conflicted, lots-to-think-about, independent, boutique, cineast-pleaser kind).
On the topic of Trek/Wars...
The old saw says that "the Golden Age of Science Fiction is Twelve"; that's when I saw Star Wars, so I may be biased in regarding it as the best of Lucas' space operas. The fact that it stands so well on its own is a very concrete argument to support that assertion, however, and I stand by it.
The sequels were just that; Empire and Jedi required the hyped momentum, context, and good will of Star Wars to make them so successful. And if Lucas had made Phantom Menace in 1977 with Star Wars' budget (translation: if it didn't have the CGFX and the residual marketing hype behind it), it might have been successful enough for a sequel (maybe two), and folks would probably remember it fondly today, but Episodes IV-VI would never have been made. For heaven's sake, the latest Trek movie was more interesting than the either of the latest Wars flicks.
Star Trek: The Motionless Picture succeeded... as a sentimental love letter to Trekkies who longed to gaze upon the Enterprise with decent FX. It seemed so turgid in part because the director didn't anticipate that (like fans had done with Star Wars, but which was not at all common before then) Trekkies would want to come back and sit through it again and again... and then doze off during the languid caresses of the good ship Enterprise. (ST: The Wrath of Ahab wisely corrected this mistake, and was more like a vigourous hand-job for the Trekkies. No one minds going back for another one - or three - of those, and it's easier to talk your non-Trekkie fans into coming along for one.)
Tying this back to the topic of comics, ST:TMP's misjudgment is a "flaw" with a lot of comics that were written as throw-away entertainment: they don't hold up so well if you fail to throw them away and insist on re-reading them.
A (true) geek joke: The special effects in ST: Nemesis were generated using computers running the Linux operating system, demonstrating that open-source software is indeed ready for the Enterprise.
L'Zoril
06-04-2003, 10:45 PM
Ok, first of all I'd like to apologise to Stuart Moore. I made the 1st post and babbled about which was my favourite SW movie and the order in which they were. Then everyone did the same. I know that wasn't the objective of the column which was obviously more thoughtful than just saying ST TMP sucks, or ROTJ's purpose was just to sell teddy bears.
Therefore, I'd like to be the 1st to change this trend. Let's discuss the column for what it is. How SW turned the tables and made the movie industry what it is now: A race to see who makes more money first. Star Wars is one of cinema's greatest masterpieces. But at what cost? Or at least, I think that's the point of the column. Who's with me?!
Oh! And to end once and for all this SW/ST mumbo jumbo I'd like to say both are great stories and at the same time aim at very different objectives. Anyone who tries to say which one is better is begging for trouble. That's it for me.
dollman
06-05-2003, 02:58 AM
"Like -- well, like almost every decade -- the ‘80s is remembered by comics fans as better than it was. Yes, new publishers provided a haven for quality work, and pushed the majors into new business models. But there was a lot of crap published, too. Pull out any old Amazing Heroes Preview Special and see how much of it is Watchmen and how much is…everything else."
Stuart, I totally disagree with you on this point. The 80s was the last golden age of comics. Sure there was Watchmen, but everything else?
How about Miracleman and Swamp Thing? Too much Alan Moore? Ok, how about Jon Sable, American Flagg, The Rocketeer, 'Mazing Man, Maze Agency, Grendel, Journey, The Masked Man, Grim Jack, Starslayer and Zot?
And note my list only included one title from the Big 2. You could easily add Miller's Dark Knight, Batman Year One, and Daredevil to list. Also John Byrne's runs on X-Men, Captain America and the Fantastic Four, Walt Simonson's run on Thor, Grell's Green Arrow....
I could go on, but the point is, yes the 80s were as good as I remember it! The advent of the comic shop not only brought the best from the indie, but also the best from Marvel and DC.
utiti77
06-05-2003, 05:42 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
[QB]Actually, I was talking about the way JEDI (a) totally drops the idea that there's a price for Luke prematurely abandoning his training; (b) gives Harrison Ford, who gave probably his best-ever performance in EMPIRE, virtually nothing to do; (c) drags out the Luke-Vader-Emperor fight for ages, with absolutely no twists beyond the one you're expecting; and (d) completely squanders its one big twist -- that Luke and Leia are brother and sister -- on an incredibly dull balcony scene, completely devoid of dramatic tension.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, cool. Now there's a well-thought criticism of Jedi that I can take. My point was that it seems like everyone and their brother hate Jedi *because* of the Ewoks, which are not as intrusive as so many people seem to think (and are even quite fascinating since nobody seems to realize they are a slightly racist metaphor for primitive tribes, in that they live in deep connection with nature and are gullible enough to be involved in a war that never was theirs).
I'm not aiming at you there, Stuart, but I've heard the Ewok complaint so many times, and it holds so little water for me, I'm starting to believe people are just happy to quote Dante and Randall's "Death Star" discussion from Clerks.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
[QB]But your mileage will, invariably, vary. That's why it's an opinion column.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, I would just have liked it better without the worn-out "teddy bear" reference, an easy short-cut if there ever was.
Peace,
u77
utiti77
06-05-2003, 05:57 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
God, no. First of all, it wasn't a complete story; it had no satisfying sense of closure whatsoever. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boy, that feels good to know you're not alone in the universe. I feel exactly the same about Empire and Jedi. They're just one movie cut in two, which is perfectly fine, but people who go on and on about how Empire is "the best one because it's the darkest" usually sound to me like their rhetoric fails somewhere. I suppose the same people must *love* the fact that we'll never seen the endings of 1963 or Miracleman among other examples. Empire is frustrating without Jedi, Jedi doesn't make any sense without Empire. In comparison, ANH must be the most individually enjoyable of all movies, which makes sense, since it was an introduction...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
Secondly, it was indeed dark - way too dark and depressing for me to enjoy its escapism. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And yeah, about those "dark" stuff lovers... First, "Empire" is nowhere near as dark as, say, Alien (to stay within the limits of Sci-Fi), and second, it's not *meant* to be.
Don't get me wrong, I like Empire. I just find it funny that some people expected its follow-up to be the Hamlet of Sci-fi or something and where unavoidably let down.
u77
DrDoom
06-05-2003, 06:23 AM
Episode 1: Jar Jar Binks major looser :(
Episode 2: Better? (minus Jar Jar Binks)(*)
(*) he had a role but that was "minimal"
Episode 3: holding my breath : hopefull 3 is a charm
Episode 4: nice (New Hope)
Episode 5: scary (The empire strikes back)
Episode 6: funny (ROTJ > those little fuzzy ewoks> who doesn't like bears?)
I loved the starwars comics from marvel : i have the collection in color... I guess there is a reedition in Black & White somewhere
I liked Dark Horse approach of their alternative storylines
I didn't like the card game of WotC
I liked the cardgame of Decipher (major bummer when it disseappered because their licence was sold to Wotc for theirs (due to George Lucas seat in the "High council" of Hasbro > wrong way to go Lucas)
Stuart Moore
06-05-2003, 08:54 AM
Zoril: No need to apologize! People can discuss anything they want here. But thanks for bringing the discussion back on-topic.
Dollman: I agree there was a lot of great stuff published during the '80s -- I've said so before. But I stand by my good-stuff-to-crap ratio. I don't like to pick on defenseless old crap by name, but if you can get hold of an AH PREVIEW SPECIAL, try my exercise. It's pretty eye-opening.
And I'd argue that there's at least as much good stuff being published now. DAREDEVIL, QUEEN & COUNTRY, POWERS, Y, STRAY BULLETS, PROMETHEA, BONE, X-STATIX, NEW X-MEN, ALIAS, various short-form work by Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller, Garth Ennis, Warren Ellis...and that's just off the top of my head, without even getting too deep into the indies.
Best,
Stuart
domuhde
06-05-2003, 12:25 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> totally drops the idea that there's a price for Luke prematurely abandoning his training </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
As I don't go on any board that discuss star wars and don't want to, I will adress this here. I think, maybe (just maybe) this isn't a mistake. I don't know if Lucas thought about it at the time (who can know?) but with the new movies coming out, it seems this part can finally be explained. The chosen one (Anakin maybe, but maybe it really is Luke instead? In Dune the messaih comes sooner than expected, why could'nt he come latter?) is supposed to "bring balance to the force". So, maybe the point is that the jedi aren't completly right. Maybe you have to follow your emotions at time, and it's the only way that you can really bring balance between the light and the dark side. So (maybe) Luke is probably fulfilling his destiny when he doesn't listen to Yoda and listens to his heart instead. And maybe that's what he had to do to bring the promised balance. I don't know, it seems to me it would make some kind of sense, no?
But we will see. If there is nothing suggesting that in episode III, then I got nothing here.
We will see...
Dominique Uhde
dollman
06-05-2003, 02:22 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
<strong>Dollman: I agree there was a lot of great stuff published during the '80s -- I've said so before. But I stand by my good-stuff-to-crap ratio. I don't like to pick on defenseless old crap by name, but if you can get hold of an AH PREVIEW SPECIAL, try my exercise. It's pretty eye-opening.
And I'd argue that there's at least as much good stuff being published now. DAREDEVIL, QUEEN & COUNTRY, POWERS, Y, STRAY BULLETS, PROMETHEA, BONE, X-STATIX, NEW X-MEN, ALIAS, various short-form work by Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller, Garth Ennis, Warren Ellis...and that's just off the top of my head, without even getting too deep into the indies.
Best,
Stuart</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fair enough Stuart. I'll be the first to admit that I probably look at the 80s with rose colored glasses, as it was my golden age. Remember Roy Thomas' quote about the golden age of comics being 8? I was in my teens in the early 80s so you get the idea.
Perhaps my standards aren't as high, as the only crappy items that I recall from the 80s were Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and all the clones that came afterward. On yeah, Marvel's Secret Wars sucked too!
little kon-el
06-06-2003, 02:04 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by utiti77:
<strong>[QUOTE](and are even quite fascinating since nobody seems to realize they are a slightly racist metaphor for primitive tribes, in that they live in deep connection with nature and are gullible enough to be involved in a war that never was theirs).
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">just talk to any filipino and they'll tell you that the brown little ewoks are filipinos because they speak tagalog. really weird. watch it with a fluent tagalog speaker and they can translate what the ewoks say. i usually use return of the jedi to point out foreign policy in the philippines during the reagan era.
in any case, i appreciate the article this week, but i wonder about how the star wars metaphor can be used in this day and age. for those of you that don't know, star wars was originally cut using digital video then copied into film-stock/analog reels to be distributed to the movie theatres. this is different from the traditional method where film stock is edited and re-edited using a cut-and-past method of film stock. with each generation you copy and edit using this film stock, you lessen the film image quality.
now, instead of sending off something to the movie theatre that is maybe made off a 4th or 5th generation reel stock, you have something that is edited and completed and put into film stock that is 1st generation-quality. the image is crisper, but it doesn't have the graininess that original film stock has.
futhermore, according to lucas, someday they won't even need film stock. the digital movie will just be beamed into the movie theatre where it will be saved on the film project's hard drive and played only at the times listed in the movie theater. so now you won't have any generation from the shooting of the film to the showing of the film.
i wonder if this is the scott mccloud metaphor we're looking for now. now that distribution angles are losing more and more ground, maybe digital comics that you can download are going to become the wave of the future. or maybe it'll be just comics that are on your hard drive for a limited amount of time before they disappear and you have to buy them again.
just a thought,
little kon-el
Danilo Raul
06-06-2003, 02:11 AM
Well star wars is a better story and have the less weird geeks (anyone has seen "Trekkies"? you should...it's scary shit!)
Dirty Vader
06-06-2003, 10:03 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by domuhde:
As I don't go on any board that discuss star wars and don't want to, I will adress this here. I think, maybe (just maybe) this isn't a mistake. I don't know if Lucas thought about it at the time (who can know?) but with the new movies coming out, it seems this part can finally be explained. The chosen one (Anakin maybe, but maybe it really is Luke instead? In Dune the messaih comes sooner than expected, why could'nt he come latter?) is supposed to "bring balance to the force". So, maybe the point is that the jedi aren't completly right. Maybe you have to follow your emotions at time, and it's the only way that you can really bring balance between the light and the dark side. So (maybe) Luke is probably fulfilling his destiny when he doesn't listen to Yoda and listens to his heart instead. And maybe that's what he had to do to bring the promised balance. I don't know, it seems to me it would make some kind of sense, no?
But we will see. If there is nothing suggesting that in episode III, then I got nothing here.
We will see...
Dominique Uhde[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps Anakin would bring balance to the Force by breaking the strict Jedi rules getting married to Padmé AND breeding Luke and Leia.
Perhaps it's Luke ( or Leia ) who actually brings balance to the Force and Anakin is just the element that starts the process.
I suspect that the answer lies on the third trilogy, which unfortunately we will never see...
I think Ep.III should be directed by Irvin Kershner because I guess this one is gonna be the darkest of all the episodes.
My favorites SW movies are :
1 - The empire strikes back
2 - A new hope
3 - Return of the Jedi ( besides teh Ewoks )
4 - The phantom Menace ( Hey ! It has Darth Maul !!! )
5 - The clone wars
My favorites ST movies are :
1 - The wrath of Kahn
2 - The undiscovered country
3 - The search for Spock
4 - The voyage home
5 - The motion picture
I refuse to rank The final frontier.
Dirty Vader
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