JiC: THE ULTIMATES & THE TRUTH [Archive]

MattBrady

01-11-2003, 09:35 AM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/ult_10.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="right">by Michael Sangiacomo

The Ultimates comic is the hottest ticket in town.

Writer Mark Millar has done a stunning job making the team a world apart from the Avengers. Millar recently told fans at the Mid-Ohio Con in Columbus that besides the Ultimates team that gets all the credit (Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Giant-Man and The Wasp) there is a behind-the-scenes core team that does all the work: Hawkeye, Mockingbird and the Black Widow.

The big guys are the public face of the organization and are out in front at the showy jobs, but they could not function without the inside team. One of the big events in coming issues is the emergence of the Ultimate universe's Ultron, the sentient robot created by Giant-Man that has battled the Avengers to a standstill many times in the regular Marvelverse. Like his counterpart, Ultron will also create his own android to infiltrate the Ultimates – The Vision.

The Vision became a key player in the Avengers once he shook off Ultron’s control. On an side note, if anyone can fully explain Geoff Jones’ Vision miniseries contention that the Vision is the original Human Torch, I’d appreciate it. Geoff said that Avengers Forever opened the door for it, but I’m still puzzled, unless the Vision of the mini-series is of another Earth.

Millar also plans to introduce Wonder Man into The Ultimates. He is a scientist who wants to cure Banner of his Hulk side and releases him. Just like in the early Avengers issues, Iron Man, Thor, Giant-Man and the Wasp (with Cap) go out Hulk hunting.

Giant-Man will continue to be something of an on-and-off again crazy. After the way he nearly killed his wife, (the Wasp) recently, he’s got to be headed for bachelorhood again.

CAPTAIN AMERICA’S TRUTH

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/truth_3.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="left">The Truth. The premise behind The Truth, is excellent: that the U.S.
government experimented with black soldiers first. Now that is a startling story that I could not wait to read.

But the truth is that while writer Robert Morales is doing a decent job, artist Kyle Baker is not.

If Baker were not a black man he would be accused of stereotyping. The huge lips, the huge butts and garish colors hurt. Who is going to pick this up and enjoy it? What really bothers me is that a lot of non-comic readers will pick up the book because of the mainstream newspaper and magazine hype about what a controversial, important story this is.

This will be the image of comics that they will carry with them. Comics look as crappy as they always suspected. Don’t take my word for it. Get a non-comic reader to look at it. I bet they won’t get past six pages before their eyes glaze over. Baker’s broad parody works on a select audience, it will go right over the head of John Q. Public.

The covers are not cartoony, which means readers get no warning of the style inside.

I don’t blame Baker (well, not too much). Joe Quesada certainly knows Baker’s style and should have been smart enough to call the next person on the list.

Months ago when Quesada said that Baker was going to draw the book, I asked him if he was crazy. Baker will kill the book. Quesada said they were aware of Baker’s cartoony style but that it would be toned down for the project to a realistic level.

Yeah, he sure did tone it down, didn’t he?

File this one under missed opportunities.

Michael Sangiacomo is a statewide news reporter for the Plain Dealer newspaper in Cleveland, Ohio. His syndicated "Journey Into Comics" weekly column on the state of the comic book business, can be found in newspapers and at the Newsarama website. His monthly comic book column appears the first Saturday of each month in the Plain Dealer Arts page and is syndicated through Newhouse Newspapers. He also writes a twice-monthly audiobooks review column covering crime thrillers and mysteries that can be seen at <a href="http://www.audiobookstoday.com" target="_blank">www.audiobookstoday.com</a>

jawaplumber

01-11-2003, 10:29 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
On an side note, if anyone can fully explain Geoff Jones’ Vision miniseries contention that the Vision is the original Human Torch, I’d appreciate it. Geoff said that Avengers Forever opened the door for it, but I’m still puzzled, unless the Vision of the mini-series is of another Earth.

But the truth is that while writer Robert Morales is doing a decent job, artist Kyle Baker is not.

Who is going to pick this up and enjoy it? What really bothers me is that a lot of non-comic readers will pick up the book because of the mainstream newspaper and magazine hype about what a controversial, important story this is.
<hr></blockquote>

Sorry for the hatchet job with the quotes, but I'm not the best, for whatever reason, with quoting on these boards. I've just given up on putting too much effort into it. Anyways, just a couple of quick comments. First, I'm not so sure I care about whether or not Johns can prove for certain that The Vision is the original Human Torch. I always thought it was ridiculous when that sweet bit of continuity was altered, for no good reason IMHO. Sure, it led to the return of the original Torch and as much as I love the old school characters, was it really necessary at the expense of the Vision?

Second, I disagree with your point regarding THE TRUTH and Kyle Baker's artwork. I can see what you are saying about how some non-comic readers might think the art looked bad, but then again, too freakin' bad for them. Besides, do you know how many cartoons, music cover albums (particularly rap and metal), and other parts of pop culture feature artwork that utlitize similiarly exaggerated styles? I've seen several over the years, going all the way back to the Al Herschfeld TV Guide covers. Simply put, if you don't like Kyle Baker's art, if you can't tell the difference between lack of talent and style, if you can't appreciate the creativity and discipline it requires to do the work of a Kyle Baker, then you just don't "get it". Hey, we have a right to our opinions, but I think it's sad when people look at something like the art on THE TRUTH, see a big butt on somebody, look right past the painted artwork, exceptional storytelling, etc., and just say "Oh, this sucks".

As an aside, thanks for the tip on stuff upcoming in THE ULTIMATES. Can't wait to see the Ultimate Ultron and Vision!

Clem Snide

01-11-2003, 10:36 AM

I've not read The Truth (aka Tuskegee 626: the Comic), but skimmed it enough to see that the art reflects images of its period; Cab Calloway, Zoot Suits, Tex Avery etc. The stylisation doesn't arise from any form of racialism so much as of a sense of art history.

But watch out for the sequel, where Percival Pinkerton gets a shot of the super-soldier serum and ends up in Bull McGiveney's foxhole.

Sivvius

01-11-2003, 11:07 AM

Who is Mockingbird Millar is talking about? I've never heard of an Avenger named Mockingbird in the regular Marvel U. Thanks.

ManifestFury

01-11-2003, 11:08 AM

Holy &*$% Folks!
Mockingbird AND Wonderman!?!?! Mr.Millar you have no idea how happy an Avengers fan you've made here! I'm a hardcore West Coast Avengers fan... they were the first comic I bought... and you're bringing into play my 2nd & 3rd favorite members! Hawkeye was the first and I'm already readlly enjoying what you're doing with him! THANKS!

Rawle Austin

01-11-2003, 11:21 AM

There is no doubt that Mark Millar's Ultimates contain some of the best superhero stories to have come out of Marvel for quite a while. Only the lateness of the title is affecting it in my opinion.

We should be patient with Geoff Johns vision (pun intended) for the Avengers and judge his stories after the big payoff (his upcoming Vision story arc)has happened. The previews of his and Olivier Copiel's future work looks beautiful and is eagerly awaited.

Icewing_X

01-11-2003, 11:24 AM

Sivvius, for information on Mockingbird, <a href="http://www.marvunapp.com/handbook/jklm/mockingbird.htm" target="_blank">go here</a>.

~Icewing, should answer most questions

Tom Daylight

01-11-2003, 11:27 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jawaplumber:


Sorry for the hatchet job with the quotes, but I'm not the best, for whatever reason, with quoting on these boards. I've just given up on putting too much effort into it. Anyways, just a couple of quick comments. First, I'm not so sure I care about whether or not Johns can prove for certain that The Vision is the original Human Torch.<hr></blockquote>

Prove?

This is science fiction, not science...

jawaplumber

01-11-2003, 11:37 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Fetsur:


Prove?

This is science fiction, not science...<hr></blockquote>

Umm, taking what I said a little too literally, wouldn't you say?

berkovw

01-11-2003, 11:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/ult_10.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="right">by Michael Sangiacomo

The Vision became a key player in the Avengers once he shook off Ultron’s control. On an side note, if anyone can fully explain Geoff Jones’ Vision miniseries contention that the Vision is the original Human Torch, I’d appreciate it. Geoff said that Avengers Forever opened the door for it, but I’m still puzzled, unless the Vision of the mini-series is of another Earth.
][/i]<hr></blockquote>

During Avengers Forever, it was revealed that despite what John Byrne told us in West Coast Avengers, that the Vision was in fact the old Human Torch android. Because of monkeying in time with the Forever Crystal by Immortus, there were two Human Torch Androids created. One stayed the Human Torch that was eventually found and fought Johnny Storm and joined the WCA. The other was stolen by Ultron and converted into the Vision.

I think of it this way. Remember in Back to the Future II when Marty and Doc go back to find a dystopian 1985? Well, there are two Martys and two Docs in that Biff Tannen-ruled 1985. We only got to see the two that we had followed, but we also saw that the bad 1985 Doc was in an institution and the bad 1985 Marty was in Europe. Therefore were two 1985 Docs and Martys.

theodoros

01-11-2003, 11:48 AM

mario boon

01-11-2003, 11:48 AM

I agree with Michael on Baker's art style. I love Baker's work to appreciate this: I "get" it . I loved " I hate Saturn" and his other Vertigo books. "King David" was what it pretended to be: a sort of paper animation feature. Baker works in animation, you know.
But why the Disney-style for such a story?
It IS distracting, tha colors ARE wrong to fit this story. It's a parody art style for a straight story.
You lose the message portrayed.
When I first saw preview of the Truth, I said "Pocahontas". Same execution of a serious, dramatic story ruined by musical Disney art.

Now I know you can portray a serious, meaningful story using cartoony art. Maus, Contract with God, ...
But the Truth isn't one of those.

I agree also with Michael's comments on the covers of the Truth. Mans DOES judge a book by its cover, like it or not.

QCCBob

01-11-2003, 11:56 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Rawle Austin:
There is no doubt that Mark Millar's Ultimates contain some of the best superhero stories to have come out of Marvel for quite a while.<hr></blockquote>

It hasn't been that long since Marvel put out the Essential Avengers!!!

I guess it's a backhanded compliment to Stan and Jack and Roy that the stuff they did lo those many years ago can be cannibalized and STILL be 'cutting edge'!!!

So, will Millar leave before we get to the Ultimate Kree-Skrull War and Ultimate Mantis or can we look forward to Ultimate Dr. Druid with Ultimate Sersi and, most importantly, Ultimate teen-age Tony Stark?!?!?

Just because you didn't read it the first (or the second or the third) time, doesn't mean it's original. If you like his 'style', fine, just don't mistake it for anything more than recycling old plots.

sythspawn

01-11-2003, 11:56 AM

Ultimate Mockingbird and Ultron!!! Woohoo! I can't wait for those issues to happen (and chances are, I'll have to wait quite a bit). I think Bryan Hitch's art is tremendous and I wish I could get that "Hitch fix" more often. The Ultimates is actually one of the few books that is worth the wait.

Hap Collins

01-11-2003, 12:03 PM

I think it's sad that Kyle Baker of all people would be accused of producing shitwork. In an industry rife with hacks and the uninspired, I always look forward to whatever Baker is putting out. When I first heard of the plans for the Truth, I was soooooooo pleased to see Kyle's name, cause I know that the guy isn't known for creating junk. Perhaps Marvel thought that Baker's Disneyesque style might be right in step with the comic and animation being presented for the time. Or maybe Marvel thought that his cartoony style might lend itself to a project when things seemed more innocent while something more sinister was occuring behind the scenes. Either way, it's really sad that a guy who writes reviews can't pick up on the subtle style employed and complains that one can't simply judge a book by its cover. Kyle Baker's a great artist and if you haven't checked out his last book, King David, you should, it's awesome!

Julio Diaz

01-11-2003, 12:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Sivvius:
Who is Mockingbird Millar is talking about? I've never heard of an Avenger named Mockingbird in the regular Marvel U. Thanks.<hr></blockquote>

Mockingbird was an Avenger of the West Coast variety for most if not all of that book's run. She was also Hawkeye's wife. Eventually, she was killed in the line of duty.

That said, would it be a BAD thing if she were a totally new character? The Ultimate universe is NOT the regular Marvel U, and I'd actually like it if they'd occasionally introduce some totally original characters into the mix.

Best,

Julio

Mark Millar2

01-11-2003, 12:34 PM

Oops. Sorry to anyone looking forward to Mockingbird and so on, but I think my thick Scots accent caused a few problems at Mid-Ohio. No Mockingbird, no Wonder Man, probably no Ultron and possibly no Vision, folks. I've considered some of these guys over the last year or two (and even worked out stories) but Hitchy and I decided to just do completely new characters for each of these arcs. Besides Black Widow and Hawkeye, there's no old characters coming into the book as of this point in time.

Of course, we change our minds every day regarding content and through out SCREEDS of possible stuff so this could change. Just wanted to drop in and make sure nobody's looking for these characters and ending up disappointed.

Quick aside to Mike S: Thanks very much for the kind words, mate. Hitchy, if he was allowed to stop drawing at the moment, would thank you guys too for all the enthusiasm (which we genuinely feed on).

Cheers to all,
MM

Mark Millar2

01-11-2003, 12:36 PM

Gah! Forgot about The Defenders. I came up with a pretty good way of using them so there's OUR version of The Defenders and the part they play in Pym's life as of ish 15 or thereabouts.

Cheers,
MM

Reloaded

01-11-2003, 12:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by theodoros:


DAMN YOU LITTLE BOY! YOU MAKE ME FEEL OLDER! And I am only 29...
:( :( :( :( <hr></blockquote>

Man, I completely feel you. I'm 26 and I'm like, "What, has it really been that long since Bobbie died?"

jawaplumber

01-11-2003, 12:51 PM

jawaplumber

01-11-2003, 12:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Mark Millar2:
Oops. Sorry to anyone looking forward to Mockingbird and so on, but I think my thick Scots accent caused a few problems at Mid-Ohio. No Mockingbird, no Wonder Man, probably no Ultron and possibly no Vision, folks. I've considered some of these guys over the last year or two (and even worked out stories) but Hitchy and I decided to just do completely new characters for each of these arcs. Besides Black Widow and Hawkeye, there's no old characters coming into the book as of this point in time.

Of course, we change our minds every day regarding content and through out SCREEDS of possible stuff so this could change. Just wanted to drop in and make sure nobody's looking for these characters and ending up disappointed.

Quick aside to Mike S: Thanks very much for the kind words, mate. Hitchy, if he was allowed to stop drawing at the moment, would thank you guys too for all the enthusiasm (which we genuinely feed on).

Cheers to all,
MM<hr></blockquote>

You know, I had thought I heard you'd changed your mind, Mark, but after this news bit, I was hoping it had changed again, as far as Ultron and Vision were concerned LOL I can live without Wonder Man and Mockingbird, though, as fun as they are/were in the regular MU. I'll keep my fingers crossed for The Vision, nonetheless, but whatever comes our way in THE ULTIMATES, I'm sure it'll be king :)

01-11-2003, 01:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Sivvius:
Who is Mockingbird Millar is talking about? I've never heard of an Avenger named Mockingbird in the regular Marvel U. Thanks.<hr></blockquote>

...Tsk. Kids. This is why back issue purchases should be required.

[quote]Originally posted by Mark Millar2:
Oops. Sorry to anyone looking forward to Mockingbird and so on, but I think my thick Scots accent caused a few problems at Mid-Ohio.<hr></blockquote>

...Talk about a cop-out. Tell you what, Mark: next time you give a talk at a con, wear a kilt just in case you want to use this wanker of an excuse again.

Jeez...

TemporalFlux

01-11-2003, 01:37 PM

What does it matter with The Ultimates? It's only coming out like once a year. They need to scrap the monthly and just do periodic graphic novels at this rate.

ralaven

01-11-2003, 02:16 PM

In regard to Geoff John's Vision limited series (other than being the poorest and most confusing I've bought in a long time) it contradicts neither John Byrne's nor Kurt's stories as JB's version had the Vision being built of the Torch's spare parts.

(Can anyone give me a resume of actually what happened in the Vision limited - maybe I missed something?)

I like the Avengers Forever story where Immortus made it so that both the Vision and the Human Torch could co-exist - best of both worlds! :p

Graeme McMillan

01-11-2003, 02:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Mark Millar2:
Of course, we change our minds every day regarding content and through out SCREEDS of possible stuff so this could change.<hr></blockquote>

Mark, THROW. You THROW out screeds of possible stuff every day (and end up going for lame Matrix rip-offs, going by the preview pages of Ultimates 8). Use your spell-check, huh?

DCD

01-11-2003, 02:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hap Collins:
Either way, it's really sad that a guy who writes reviews can't pick up on the subtle style employed and complains that one can't simply judge a book by its cover.<hr></blockquote>

Good point, but if a guy who reviews comics can't pick up on Kyle's style, what chance does John Q Public have....

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:


by Michael Sangiacomo

...Baker’s broad parody works on a select audience, it will go right over the head of John Q. Public.<hr></blockquote>

And this is a problem...
If you're goning to market something for the public at large, you should make sure the public will understand it!!

[quote]Originally posted by Hap Collins:
...Perhaps Marvel thought that Baker's Disneyesque style might be right in step with the comic and animation being presented for the time...<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't call Kyle's Disneyesque, Cartoony maybe, if it were Disneyesque or more like the Justice League animation, it would be perfect for John Q.

I'm not exactly digging Kyle's work on The Truth. Does anyone have any more information about King David?

mike sangiacomo

01-11-2003, 03:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Mark Millar2:
Oops. Sorry to anyone looking forward to Mockingbird and so on, but I think my thick Scots accent caused a few problems at Mid-Ohio. No Mockingbird, no Wonder Man, probably no Ultron and possibly no Vision, folks. I've considered some of these guys over the last year or two (and even worked out stories) but Hitchy and I decided to just do completely new characters for each of these arcs. Besides Black Widow and Hawkeye, there's no old characters coming into the book as of this point in time.

Sangiacomo here.
Aw man, no Vision, Wonder Man or Ultron? Bummer, it sounded like it would have been a great storyline. The folks you talked to at Mid-Ohio said you were set to start the storyline, oh well, things change.
AN ASIDE TO THE FOLKS WHO PROVIDED THE VISION/TORCH EXPLANATION:
Thanks! That solution works for me. I was unable to find that particular issue of "Avengers Forever" in my horribly disorganized collection. I figured that Geoff dealt with the apparent contradiction somewhere. So the bottom line is that there are two Human Torch androids tromping around. Fair enough.
AN ASIDE ON KYLE BAKER
I'm not saying Kyle's art is bad, but in my humble opinion, it's bad for that particular project. I just can't get passed the notion that the story is super-serious but the art looks like a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
M

Of course, we change our minds every day regarding content and through out SCREEDS of possible stuff so this could change. Just wanted to drop in and make sure nobody's looking for these characters and ending up disappointed.

Quick aside to Mike S: Thanks very much for the kind words, mate. Hitchy, if he was allowed to stop drawing at the moment, would thank you guys too for all the enthusiasm (which we genuinely feed on).

Cheers to all,
MM<hr></blockquote>

Tom Daylight

01-11-2003, 04:02 PM

Graeme McMillan

01-11-2003, 04:43 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Fetsur:


A spell-check wouldn't pick up on that.<hr></blockquote>

I was being facetious. And more polite than saying "What kind of professional writer are you if you can't tell the difference between Throw and Through?"

MichaelCoughlin

01-11-2003, 04:57 PM

People are picking on the way that MM spells words on an internet web site? Sheesh. Sounds more like people don't like the guy, and instead choose to nitpick on meaningless aspects like a typo, rather than just outright say, "I don't like your work."

Personally, I dislike the fact that MM injects his own political views into stories, often times at the expense of charecterization. (I'll never forget GENERAL Fury saying he voted for Nader. No one on earth has ever given me a logical reason why he'd do such a thing)

As for the art on Truth. Some people need to get their heads out of their collective asses! Saying it's too bad if people don't "get it" is an asinine thing to say, and completely short sited. Truth was a project that was pushed very hard to the mainstream world. It was obviously a book that Marvel was hoping would attract a crossover audience. When your making a book that you hope can draw in a new audience, you have to make it as appealing as possible, and that usually means not quite so "artsy". You can't tell everyone "read this, it's good" and then when people say, "i didn't like that" reply, "oh, well you just don't get it." Because while they might not have "gotten it", in the end, you're the one who's screwed, because you didn't get their money.

gren99

01-11-2003, 04:59 PM

my significant other (who is black) read 'truth' and found no fault witht he art. she felt that it was very much true to the era itself -- right down to the coloring and as such stood wellon it's own.

what she didn't like was the storytelling -- and that's my criticism opf the book as well. we're 2 issues in and very little has happened -- three guys are in the army and are off to some bootcamp out int he middle of nowhere -- and that's about it.

when something DOES happen, it turns out to be so utterly hamfisted and contrived, it feels both dumb and forced all at once. i honestly don't think too many people will get bent out of shape because the artwork in the book too accurately reflects the 1940s -- but if the first 2 issues are any indication, what will eventually sink this series is the fact that it may very well have been just poorly written.

Graeme McMillan

01-11-2003, 05:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:
People are picking on the way that MM spells words on an internet web site? Sheesh. Sounds more like people don't like the guy, and instead choose to nitpick on meaningless aspects like a typo, rather than just outright say, "I don't like your work."<hr></blockquote>

Ah, we've met, then.

Nah, mostly it's just that I get really anal about people choosing the incorrect spelling of a word over the correct one; if you think I was bad with Mark there, just be glad he didn't use "too" instead of "to" (or vice versa). Annoys the fuck out've me.

Hdefined

01-11-2003, 05:15 PM

Millar's cop-out = BOOOOOOOO!

Actually, i just hate "news" being printed and then hearing it comes up as completely false ("newsarama" like whut?)

As for Ultimates itself, 7 issues in 12 months. Wow. Impressive. Marvel hasn't sucked this bad on lateness since . . . well, I rightfully don't remember any point before Marvel Knights Daredevil that Marvel suffered from lateness. BOOOOOOO!

Graeme McMillan

01-11-2003, 05:21 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
As for Ultimates itself, 7 issues in 12 months. Wow. Impressive. Marvel hasn't sucked this bad on lateness since . . . well, I rightfully don't remember any point before Marvel Knights Daredevil that Marvel suffered from lateness. BOOOOOOO!<hr></blockquote>

Hitch has said that, by issue 10 or so, they should be on course for monthly status.

Of course, I'll remain cynical about that, but I always do. Interestingly enough, Paul Neary is now the inker on the book... I wonder if that has anything to do with the projected increased frequency?

Atomic City Comics

01-11-2003, 05:43 PM

So Kyle Baker's art is going to put off the general public? Well, here in Philadelphia one of the city's newspapers ran a story on the Truth with a huge blow up of the world's fair splash page from issue one on the front page of it's style section.

Then later that week Joe Quesada came to our store to push the book and we moved about 265 copies of issue one, and since then an additional 100 copies of the reprint. We also blew out of 150 copies of #2 in about 3 days.

Now these weren't just our usual customers, these were people who told us they've never been to a comic shop. These people are still coming back to the store and bringing their friends and buying the truth and buying other comics. We've even had people call from other states who couldn't find the book or the reprint and have asked us to mail copies to them.

So I don't think Kyle's art is scaring anyone away from the book.

But hey maybe it's a Philadelphia thing.

qnetter

01-11-2003, 06:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mario boon:
But why the Disney-style for such a story?
It IS distracting, tha colors ARE wrong to fit this story. It's a parody art style for a straight story.
<hr></blockquote>

Actually, it's a zoot-suited art style for a zoot-suit era. Baker has nailed the expression of Negro (term carefully chosen) culture of that era in its color pallette, its exaggerations of scale, its fluid jazziness of pose.

JSA Mou

01-11-2003, 06:23 PM

I must admit, I'm loving The Ulimates, in spite of its chronic lateness. For me, the Ultimate line is Marvel's Earth-2 -- a fun place to visit and to compare to the mainstream Marvel universe.

mike sangiacomo

01-11-2003, 06:23 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atomic City Comics:
[QB]So Kyle Baker's art is going to put off the general public? Well, here in Philadelphia one of the city's newspapers ran a story on the Truth with a huge blow up of the world's fair splash page from issue one on the front page of it's style section.

Then later that week Joe Quesada came to our store to push the book and we moved about 265 copies of issue one, and since then an additional 100 copies of the reprint. We also blew out of 150 copies of #2 in about 3 days.

Now these weren't just our usual customers, these were people who told us they've never been to a comic shop. These people are still coming back to the store and bringing their friends and buying the truth and buying other comics. We've even had people call from other states who couldn't find the book or the reprint and have asked us to mail copies to them.

So I don't think Kyle's art is scaring anyone away from the book.

sangiacomo here (a former Philly guy)
Tell you what, I'll eat my words if those people come back for more. It's easy to get a huge response for a comic when a major newspaper does a feature on it (it happens every time I write one for the Plain Dealer in Cleveland) BUT what about next month? Do those people actually read the book and come back and buy the rest of the series? Or other comics? I doubt it, they are just newspaper readers curious about the flavor of the week.
M

Timothycat

01-11-2003, 06:48 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:


Mark, THROW. You THROW out screeds of possible stuff every day (and end up going for lame Matrix rip-offs, going by the preview pages of Ultimates 8). Use your spell-check, huh?<hr></blockquote>

Ben, Spell checkers don't catch words that are spelled correctly. Perhaps you mean a grammar checker? A spell checker is probably why the mistake happened in the first place. If one feels one MUST be rude to the pros, it's best to not live in a glass house.

Best,
TimK
;)

Adam Hardy

01-11-2003, 07:05 PM

Actually, I thought it was established years ago that the Vision is constructed of spare parts from the original Human Torch, with Ultronny extras thrown in. Can't remember when this came up, but I thought it was a good while back.

Too bad about no Mockingbird. It'd've been nice to have seen an Ultimate version, since she's a character so appropriate for Ultimatization, particularly given the Ultimate S.H.I.E.L.D. I thought killing the character at the end of Avengers West Coast as a sales ploy was always annoying. I also never cared much for Kurt Busiek's choice to bring back Patsy Walker rather than Mockingbird, but then again, I always felt Hellcat should have come back demonic.

For the record, I do love Ultimates, but I still hate the concept of the Ultimate universe and feel it dilutes the already-wavering Marvel Universe. I'd really love to see Marvel put the kibosh on alternate universes for a good while, Exiles excepted.

Oh, wait, Judd Winick is leaving Exiles. Nevermind, let's scrap that one, too.

J.C. Bakken

01-11-2003, 07:08 PM

In search of comics last week, I, among Kree-Skull War and Celestial Madonna, picked ut The Ultimates. Granted reading these things back to back really gives you an perspective on story telling then and now.
Ever since the Marvel Age of Comics came forth, the 20-ish page format has had less and less story in it. Granted, the earliest issues of FF and AMS had 2 stories in them, but the Avengers had a full fleged story, in 1 of 2 chapters. In those days, you could have 9 or perhaps 12 panels pr. page, and not a single beat was missed.
During the 70's, this dosed of, and coming towards the mid-80's we were down to 6-8 panels. It again reclined during late-80's/early 90's (Yeah, I'm looking at you Rob!) and somewhere along the line it seems like the writers really has adapted this form of story telling, and made it, their own.

To the point.
Mark Millar has crafted a really great story in Super-Human(The Ultimates vol.1 collecting issues 1-6 or the monthly series). BUT, go back 20 years, couldn't this be told in 3 issues?
Down in the bottom of my heart, even belowe the heart, I belive it does.

But looking at this from todays point of comic-view, it melts together with Bryan Hitch(or Hitchy among Millars) as a great story.
And allthough I'm not to fond of the made-for-tpb format, until they catch up with the schedule, The Ultimates are best preserved as tbp. It's far to little story in one issue to entertain me in the long run, and to far between. I will evaluate monthly vs tbp when they catch up, so will see.

arthur pendragon

01-11-2003, 07:27 PM

[quote]Originally posted by jawaplumber:


But I still see stuff like The Ultimates as being original, as well. It's original in it's approach, it's storytelling, it's expansion of the original characterization. This much, no one can deny.<hr></blockquote>

Characterization? The way Millar writes Cap you wouldn't even know he was from another era. Cap hasn't batted an eyelash to the world he woke up in sixty years removed from the one he knew. Gay rights, miscegenation, female empowerment and sexual liberation, abortion on demand. Cap can't be bothered about such things, he's going to beat up the wife beater. As if violence towards women was less accepted then than it is now. Jan kept coming back for more after her beatings, so apart from making Cap and the readers feel better, I don't think Cap beating up Hank is going to teach him the error of his ways.

Kabukiman

01-11-2003, 07:49 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
But the truth is that while writer Robert Morales is doing a decent job, artist Kyle Baker is not.[/i]<hr></blockquote>

I guess there's no accounting for taste. This is my first exposure to Baker's work and I think he's the perfect artist for the job. This is fantastic.

That said, I do agree about the disparity between the covers and the interior work. BUT, anyone who buys a comic from simply looking at the cover and not even flipping through to look at the interiors has no business complaining.

Kabukiman

01-11-2003, 07:52 PM

Hdefined

01-11-2003, 07:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:


Hitch has said that, by issue 10 or so, they should be on course for monthly status.

Of course, I'll remain cynical about that, but I always do. Interestingly enough, Paul Neary is now the inker on the book... I wonder if that has anything to do with the projected increased frequency?<hr></blockquote>

Tell the truth, I remember Hitch said the exact same thing with issue #6 when #5 had come out.

And even if he's doing monthly by #10, what does this mean . . . that #9 will come out in May, and #10 in October?

Kabukiman

01-11-2003, 08:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:
Interestingly enough, Paul Neary is now the inker on the book... I wonder if that has anything to do with the projected increased frequency?<hr></blockquote>

Is he really? That's fantastic news. I'm not a huge fan of Currie's inking (digital inking?) on Hitch. It's too sketchy for me, I like Neary's smoother inks.

Atomic City Comics

01-11-2003, 08:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
sangiacomo here (a former Philly guy)
Tell you what, I'll eat my words if those people come back for more. It's easy to get a huge response for a comic when a major newspaper does a feature on it (it happens every time I write one for the Plain Dealer in Cleveland) BUT what about next month? Do those people actually read the book and come back and buy the rest of the series? Or other comics? I doubt it, they are just newspaper readers curious about the flavor of the week.
M[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Mike,

I'll take that bet.

As I said in my 1st post. Yes, they are coming back, Yes they are continuing to buy the book. We get about 20-30 calls every Wednesday asking if the new issue is out yet, and they're also buying other comics in addition to the Truth. Gotham Girls, Avengers, Fables,JLA adventures and Green Lantern to name a few. They must be reading the book since one day the grandmother who's getting two issues each (one for her, the other for her grandson in high school who she mails them to) was having a talk about it with a college girl who came to the store to get a copy also. Yes, they were talking about the plot of the book.

Mike I'm not kidding it's happening here.

newarrior

01-11-2003, 08:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Atomic City Comics:

Mike I'm not kidding it's happening here.<hr></blockquote>

Must be a Philly thing. Us left-coaster can't sell a damn 12 copies of it... I do enjoy most of Baker's art (again, "Why I Hate Saturn" being one of the better works done in the last number of years) but I don't like it in Truth. I think the writer has one voice for all his characters...I didn't even realise the first issue was about three different people until I read the intro in the second issue. And, besides that hole "Shitting on 60+ years of Cap continuity"... I just can't get into it.

arthur pendragon

01-11-2003, 09:03 PM

I don't doubt what Atomic City Comics says about sales of The Truth in their store. I would say that his store is the exception and not the rule. The series is underperforming and the sales figures bear out that fact.

The Truth #1=69,445

The Truth #2=60,889

The Truth #3=53,431 source: ICv2

Wait until you see the numbers for the fourth issue.

There was also the Newsarama article that had retailers saying they'd order Rawhide Kid conservatively because they got burned on The Truth.

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000098" target="_blank">http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000098</a>

I think sales at Atomic City can be attributed to Quesada's promotional appearance and the demographics of the area.

little kon-el

01-11-2003, 09:03 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:
When your making a book that you hope can draw in a new audience, you have to make it as appealing as possible, and that usually means not quite so "artsy". You can't tell everyone "read this, it's good" and then when people say, "i didn't like that" reply, "oh, well you just don't get it." Because while they might not have "gotten it", in the end, you're the one who's screwed, because you didn't get their money.<hr></blockquote>

is it the art or the writing that is "unappealable"? because i see the truth and i think of how well dark knight returns was well received and i have to question whether or not a mainstream public (or at least the mainstream public of an artistic calibur) would "get it" and purchase it.

little kon-el

little kon-el

01-11-2003, 09:09 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
[QUOTE]sangiacomo here (a former Philly guy)
Tell you what, I'll eat my words if those people come back for more. It's easy to get a huge response for a comic when a major newspaper does a feature on it (it happens every time I write one for the Plain Dealer in Cleveland) BUT what about next month? Do those people actually read the book and come back and buy the rest of the series? Or other comics? I doubt it, they are just newspaper readers curious about the flavor of the week.
M<hr></blockquote>

isn't that the nature of the beast? the push in the 80s about "relevant comics" came due to someone writing a "Bam/Pow" article every other month. they had a good PR guy who played up batman as something beyond the 1960s kitch and you had a buying public that bought it up. also, you had maus win a pulitzer and watchmen make a big splash that were sent to reviewers who thought the world of this stuff.

from the way i see it, you only sustain a group of people to purchase your product by advertising in articles and in write-ups. it's like promoting a new medium to a generation that didn't grow up buying the medium. you have to just keep on drilling at them with good stuff that they'd want to pick up, in publications that normally wouldn't have this sort of stuff in them.

little kon-el

Chris Ekman

01-11-2003, 09:13 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
I'm not saying Kyle's art is bad, but in my humble opinion, it's bad for that particular project.<hr></blockquote>

It might have been helpful if you'd bothered making that distinction in the column itself. But you didn't, and it's hard to avoid the impression that you are indeed calling Kyle's art bad in and of itself:

[quote]This will be the image of comics that [non-comics readers] will carry with them. Comics look as crappy as they always suspected. Don’t take my word for it. Get a non-comic reader to look at it. I bet they won’t get past six pages before their eyes glaze over. Baker’s broad parody works on a select audience, it will go right over the head of John Q. Public.<hr></blockquote>

(That last sentence is especially bizarre, because, in every discussion I've ever seen of which books are best to give to non-comics reading friends, Baker's books WHY I HATE SATURN and THE COWBOY WALLY SHOW always top the list.)

mike sangiacomo

01-11-2003, 10:16 PM

mike sangiacomo

01-11-2003, 10:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Chris Ekman:


(That last sentence is especially bizarre, because, in every discussion I've ever seen of which books are best to give to non-comics reading friends, Baker's books WHY I HATE SATURN and THE COWBOY WALLY SHOW always top the list.)<hr></blockquote>
SANGIACOMO HERE:
It's not that Baker's work is "bad," in the way that art would be if (God forbid) I ever tried to draw, but it's different, cartoony, unusual. I thought I made the point clear that Baker's work is fine for certain genres, but for what is being trumpeted as a serious refinement of the Cap legend, it's freaking goofy.

In Ohio, I wote an article about the city of Akron
ordering that all cats be walked on leashes. When I reported it, I said expecting cats to walk on leash was as ridiculous as TRYING TO WALK CATS ON A LEASH. I could not thnk of anything more stupid.

On the "Truth" issue, Marvel had a chace to get a lot of people interested in reading comics, but if they see the Baker art thy will be turned off - with the possible exception of Philly. ANd I still that won't hold up.
<M

Mr. Special ED

01-11-2003, 10:32 PM

BLACKBRIAR

01-11-2003, 11:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by QCCBob:
Just because you didn't read it the first (or the second or the third) time, doesn't mean it's original. If you like his 'style', fine, just don't mistake it for anything more than recycling old plots.<hr></blockquote>

I am not trying to get into an Ultimate vs regular Marvel universe tussle.

One of the reasons I don't give Mark Millar much respect as a writer is because he does have an easy job. All he is doing is rewriting old stories to better match the sensibilities of thirty year old fan boys. (But I am happy that MM can make a living as a writer blah blah blah.)

And QBOB does have a good point, is Millar going to be content simply to redo the best of the first fifty or hundred issues of the Avengers?

I really hope he can show SOME originality.

But as for the regular Marvel universe being more oringinal, I have to shout a resounding NO. Jeff Johns is one of the current HOT writers out there and what is he doing? Serving us a stinking recycled pile of the Vision and Scarlet Witch romance. This is not original.

Most of the BIG company comics are like this: What happens in the first few issues of the supposedly NEW Hawkman series? The writers rehash the old Hawkman Green Arrow relationship and rehash the old Hawkman Atom relationship.

I think both Ultimate and regular universes are equally guilty of rehashing old stories. Why do the writers need to worry about whether or not the Vision is or is not the original Human Torch?! Who the fuck cares?! (Because really THAT character NEEDS a more convoluted backstory. Please make that character MORE complicated and more off-putting to anyone who hasn't read comics for the past thirty years, PLEASE!)

I want the writers in the business to try to take the old characters and pull them in NEW directions. Can anyone do that?!

Hey and to those guys who started comics on the WCA. I was there too and I really liked Mocking Bird BUT I don't want to see her as an Ultimate character. As much as I liked the character, all she did was make Hawkeye and herself look like a bad rip-off of Green Arrow and Black Canary. I mean couldn't they have made her a Cat-inspired character for crying out loud?!

BLACKBRIAR

01-11-2003, 11:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MikeS:

Months ago when Quesada said that Baker was going to draw the book, I asked him if he was crazy. Baker will kill the book. Quesada said they were aware of Baker’s cartoony style but that it would be toned down for the project to a realistic level.

Yeah, he sure did tone it down, didn’t he?

File this one under missed opportunities.
<hr></blockquote>

Sangiacomo:

I don't want to rag on you too much, since you are taking a lot of flack already and you actually go out on the limb and state your personal opinions ...

BUT I think here your fanboy tastes are showing.

In my experience, Joe Q Public tends to be drawn to more expressive cartoon work rather than the faux realistic style preffered by most thirty year old fanboys (who need to realistic art to feel good about spending large amounts of money on men in tights).

gwangung

01-12-2003, 12:10 AM

In my experience, Joe Q Public tends to be drawn to more expressive cartoon work rather than the faux realistic style preffered by most thirty year old fanboys (who need to realistic art to feel good about spending large amounts of money on men in tights).

Now, I find this VERY interesting. I don't know if this is true or not (and I'd like to hear more evidence), but if it's true, that has a LOT of relevance in trying to rekindle the audience for comics.

doom

01-12-2003, 02:03 AM

i think most people would pick xmen era jim lee over truth era kyle baker.

Taylor Porter

01-12-2003, 02:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by doom:
i think most people would pick xmen era jim lee over truth era kyle baker.<hr></blockquote>

Most people here? Probably. Most people on the street? I kinda doubt it.

Taylor Porter

01-12-2003, 02:24 AM

[quote]Originally posted by OM:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sivvius:
Who is Mockingbird Millar is talking about? I've never heard of an Avenger named Mockingbird in the regular Marvel U. Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...Tsk. Kids. This is why back issue purchases should be required.
<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, because people have no business talking here unless they have a near-encyclopedic knowledge of obscure Marvel characters from the 80s. Only people who read mainstream comics should bother posting on a discussion board about comics. It could be a test: only people who know Mockingbird's maiden name, Thundra's weight, and Namorita's swimming speed are TRUE comic book fans.

Alan Coil

01-12-2003, 02:50 AM

The totality of the Ultimates line is simply rewriting the stories from years gone by. As such, they are exciting to new readers and Neanderthals who watch professional wrestling, all the while thinking it isn't scripted.

The Ultimates----seven issues in twelve months. So much for Marvel publishing 18 issues per year. The latest Ultimates has a scene or two that are just rewritings of an earier issue----I could have written that.

If Millar is so overworked that he can't get his books out on a monthly basis, then he should give up one of his assignments. If his best-friend artist can't do a monthly book, then he should restrict himself to mini series.

The Ultimates is just Marvels attempt to do The Authority. The characters are supposed to be heroes, but they're just dispicable thugs. A hero can make mistakes, but to remain a hero, they have to atone for their errors and try to be better. There are no redeeming traits to these characters.

The Truth----I like Kyle Baker's art style. I won't be buying this series. I had originally decided to wait for the trade, but I have been hearing too many bad reviews of this book. The local comics shop tells me that they can't cut their orders fast enough on this title. Most of the customers who bought the first issue aren't buying the second.

doom

01-12-2003, 03:05 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:


Most people here? Probably. Most people on the street? I kinda doubt it.<hr></blockquote>

i don't. i remember showing people my jim lee xmen stuff when it came out and people drooled. when i showed them my slapstick comics, no one really paid attention.

the art in "the truth" appeals mostly to people who emphasize the "comic" in comic book.

i personally have no problem with the art. after the initial "WTF," i settled into things and went with it, but i doubt anyone who picks it up will be made to question their stereotypes of comic books (at least art-wise).

Atomic City Comics

01-12-2003, 03:40 AM

[quote]Originally posted by newarrior:


Must be a Philly thing. Us left-coaster can't sell a damn 12 copies of it... I do enjoy most of Baker's art (again, "Why I Hate Saturn" being one of the better works done in the last number of years) but I don't like it in Truth. I think the writer has one voice for all his characters...I didn't even realise the first issue was about three different people until I read the intro in the second issue. And, besides that hole "Shitting on 60+ years of Cap continuity"... I just can't get into it.<hr></blockquote>

OK if you can't sell more than 12 I'll buy the rest off of you. (wholesale of course. Hey I've got to make a profit.) I've heard the same story from other retailers and when I called them they didn't have any copies left. except for one guy who had about 3 copies of #1 and 2 copies of #2.

Maybe it is an east coast thing, I really don't know, I just know I've got prople who really want the book and no way to get it to them.

And come on. The whole continiuty thing? Did everybody get all bent all of shape when Alan Moore did the same thing in Swamp Thing?

Rawle Austin

01-12-2003, 07:19 AM

In a quick follow up to my earlier post I have to say that while I agree that the Ultimates are rehashing old plots, the final product is unrecognisable from the original and is very good.

As a long time Avengers fan, starting from the mid-eighties with the Roger Stern/John Buscema run, it's great to see the mythology continuing to this day and reaching out to grab new audiences.

I for one would would love to see the return of Marvels version of the Greek gods in the regular Avengers book or maybe a Max mini series?

Food for thought.

arthur pendragon

01-12-2003, 07:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Atomic City Comics:


OK if you can't sell more than 12 I'll buy the rest off of you. (wholesale of course. Hey I've got to make a profit.) I've heard the same story from other retailers and when I called them they didn't have any copies left. except for one guy who had about 3 copies of #1 and 2 copies of #2.

Maybe it is an east coast thing, I really don't know, I just know I've got prople who really want the book and no way to get it to them.
<hr></blockquote>

As I said in my earlier post, which I'd like you to read if you didn't see it(second post from the bottom of page #2), I don't doubt what you say about selling The Truth, but if you don't think it's just you and a few others, go check eBay auctions for the book. They're as cold as ice.

Bryan Hitch

01-12-2003, 08:28 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Mark Millar2:
Gah! Forgot about The Defenders. I came up with a pretty good way of using them so there's OUR version of The Defenders and the part they play in Pym's life as of ish 15 or thereabouts.

Cheers,
MM<hr></blockquote>

We have discussed this arc at length, and I can't wait. It's sick, I tell you, SICK!

Hitchy

(It's Sunday, I'm allowed to stop drawing today.)

Graeme McMillan

01-12-2003, 09:02 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Mr. Special ED:


Gimme a fucking break.<hr></blockquote>

Wotta revoltin' development.

Kids, I was taking the piss as opposed to trying to insult Mark. Calm down.

pickard

01-12-2003, 11:14 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:


Wotta revoltin' development.

Kids, I was taking the piss as opposed to trying to insult Mark. Calm down.<hr></blockquote>

It didn't come across that way to me, either.

It's a sad limitation of message boards that the tone of a message often gets lost, but it's a limitation to always keep in mind while posting.

Graeme McMillan

01-12-2003, 12:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by pickard:
It's a sad limitation of message boards that the tone of a message often gets lost, but it's a limitation to always keep in mind while posting.<hr></blockquote>

Oh, I've learned my lesson, don't you worry.

Graeme McMillan

01-12-2003, 12:09 PM

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
In my experience, Joe Q Public tends to be drawn to more expressive cartoon work rather than the faux realistic style preffered by most thirty year old fanboys.<hr></blockquote>

You know, I don't often agree with him, but this time, I think Briar is exactly right.

Hap Collins

01-12-2003, 12:32 PM

To whoever posted early, here's my requisite dork cred: Mockingbird's maiden name is Morse. Haw. Anyway, I work in a comic shop on the east coast and we have managed to move around 200 copies of Truth #1 and around 150-160 of Truth #2. The media boost has helped sales some, but word of mouth about Kyle Baker's earlier work (Why I Hate Saturn, Cowboy Wally and King David) helped with sales as well. At least around here. At least the subject matter has been treated with some aplomb unlike all that I've seen so far for the Rawhide Kid.
Also, on the whole why doesn't Ultimates come out on time and why does Millar announce stuff coming up only to change his mind front. Didn't Millar once talk about a story involving a Skrull invasion as well as Tony being shot down over China and the Chinese acquiring the Iron Man tech early on in the Ultimates? Maybe I imagined it... Hitch, while I love his stuff, is notoriously slow. It's a shame they couldn't have used him on the Ultimate War (or Ultimate Conversation, so far). While it's debatable whether Baker's art is appropriate for the Truth, does anyone think that Chris Bachalo is right for the Ultimate War?

Drew Reiber

01-12-2003, 02:40 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Alan Coil:
The totality of the Ultimates line is simply rewriting the stories from years gone by. As such, they are exciting to new readers and Neanderthals who watch professional wrestling, all the while thinking it isn't scripted.

The Ultimates----seven issues in twelve months. So much for Marvel publishing 18 issues per year. The latest Ultimates has a scene or two that are just rewritings of an earier issue----I could have written that.

If Millar is so overworked that he can't get his books out on a monthly basis, then he should give up one of his assignments. If his best-friend artist can't do a monthly book, then he should restrict himself to mini series.

The Ultimates is just Marvels attempt to do The Authority. The characters are supposed to be heroes, but they're just dispicable thugs. A hero can make mistakes, but to remain a hero, they have to atone for their errors and try to be better. There are no redeeming traits to these characters.<hr></blockquote>

All I can say is... ditto. However, I would add Ultimate X-Men, The Monarchy, The Establishment and Ellis' X-Force to the mix. For the sake of my respect for J. Michael Straczynski's work (followed it since I was 5), I would hope that his Supreme Power monthly isn't more of the same.

It amazes me how much recycled crap we've managed to squeeze out of Squadron Supreme and Watchmen at this point... but even more sad that the industry has since stopped trying to hide it. Now they're trying to convince us that deconstructionism for fanboys is what new readers have been crying for. What next? Watchmen the ongoing series? Oh wait, they're probably just waiting for Alan Moore to keel over. After all, that's what Jonathan Demme did with John Frankenheimer's Manchurian Candidate. *sigh*

King

01-12-2003, 03:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Drew Reiber:


All I can say is... ditto. However, I would add Ultimate X-Men, The Monarchy, The Establishment and Ellis' X-Force to the mix. For the sake of my respect for J. Michael Straczynski's work (followed it since I was 5), I would hope that his Supreme Power monthly isn't more of the same.

It amazes me how much recycled crap we've managed to squeeze out of Squadron Supreme and Watchmen at this point... but even more sad that the industry has since stopped trying to hide it. Now they're trying to convince us that deconstructionism for fanboys is what new readers have been crying for. What next? Watchmen the ongoing series? Oh wait, they're probably just waiting for Alan Moore to keel over. After all, that's what Jonathan Demme did with John Frankenheimer's Manchurian Candidate. *sigh*<hr></blockquote>

It amazes me that people who want to see people in tights fight other people in tights month after month can look down on other fans. Why are traditional superhero books more valid than more realistic ones? Traditional superheroes have been around for 60 years. Nothing new is being done in that style either. We've also got a tremendous amount of recycled crap from Stan Lee's work. It's one thing not to like it, but Alan Coil makes it sound like anyone who enjoys the Ultimate books is a retard. We're all geeks in here.

Velvet Glove

01-12-2003, 03:21 PM

Ya know, this column appears to be rather full of hot air this week. Let's see -- we hype it as big revelations about The Ultimates, which the series' writer then comes in on the message board and says aren't true anymore. So basically half of this column is just taking up space. Then we slag Kyle Baker a bit. Feh. Not exactly stop the presses news here, is there?

Graeme McMillan

01-12-2003, 03:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Velvet Glove:
Ya know, this column appears to be rather full of hot air this week. Let's see -- we hype it as big revelations about The Ultimates, which the series' writer then comes in on the message board and says aren't true anymore. So basically half of this column is just taking up space. Then we slag Kyle Baker a bit. Feh. Not exactly stop the presses news here, is there?<hr></blockquote>

I was kind of hoping, in light of Mark's comments, that the first post would be edited to say "Um, never mind. But Kyle Baker's a bit cartoony, isn't he?"

Hdefined

01-12-2003, 03:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Bryan Hitch:


We have discussed this arc at length, and I can't wait. It's sick, I tell you, SICK!

Hitchy

(It's Sunday, I'm allowed to stop drawing today.)<hr></blockquote>

Not another break! :D

Kabukiman

01-12-2003, 03:41 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
On the "Truth" issue, Marvel had a chace to get a lot of people interested in reading comics, but if they see the Baker art thy will be turned off<hr></blockquote>

How have you come to that conclusion? Because YOU don't like it?

It's nice to see that you can speak for "John Q Public when it seems, judging by the responses to your article, you don't seem to speak for all that many people at all.

Kabukiman

01-12-2003, 03:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by doom:
i think most people would pick xmen era jim lee over truth era kyle baker.<hr></blockquote>

What's your basis for thinking that?

Kabukiman

01-12-2003, 03:43 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Alan Coil:
As such, they are exciting to new readers and Neanderthals who watch professional wrestling, all the while thinking it isn't scripted.
<hr></blockquote>

Or maybe to pretentious asses who think that people still believe wrestling is real.

MichaelCoughlin

01-12-2003, 04:56 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:


Ah, we've met, then.

Nah, mostly it's just that I get really anal about people choosing the incorrect spelling of a word over the correct one; if you think I was bad with Mark there, just be glad he didn't use "too" instead of "to" (or vice versa). Annoys the fuck out've me.<hr></blockquote>

Only reason I stuck up for Mark here is that I've made the same mistake he has DOZENS of times. (sigh, now I'll sound like an ass) I write three columns a week for a website (not related to comic books) and for whatever reason, when you're in the middle of typing out something, weird things like "through" and "throw" happen.

[quote]We have discussed this arc at length, and I can't wait. It's sick, I tell you, SICK!

Hitchy

(It's Sunday, I'm allowed to stop drawing today.)
<hr></blockquote>

Say's who? damnit, I want more comics! WORK DAMN YOU WORK!

btw everyone, while I don't know this for a fact, I'm just guessing that the reason behind Ultimates lateness isn't due to Mark's writing, but more due to Bryan's art. (and since there's a one in a million chance he'll read this, I'll take this time to say that Hitch does BEAUTIFUL work) I mean, Ult X-Men is coming out on a pretty regular pace right now, and MM writes that one as well. If they both came out super late all the time, I'd say Mark was the reason, but since only one of them does, I BLAME HITCH!!!!! GET BACK TO WORK YOU LAZY BASTARD!

Fin Fang Foom

01-12-2003, 07:12 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hap Collins:
I think it's sad that Kyle Baker of all people would be accused of producing shitwork...

...Either way, it's really sad that a guy who writes reviews can't pick up on the subtle style employed and complains that one can't simply judge a book by its cover.<hr></blockquote>

I don't think he wasn't accusing Kyle Baker of producing bad work; just expressing the opinion that the work was inappropriate for this particular project; and was (as he says) a missed opportunity.

I think Kyle Baker has produced some outstanding dramatic (by which I mean non-comedic) work; his work on THE SHADOW with Andy Helfer is among my all-time favorite series. But his style has gotten much more broad, more cartoon-like in the years since then.

I think the problem here was a /lack/ of subtlety.

jawaplumber

01-12-2003, 07:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Kabukiman:


Or maybe to pretentious asses who think that people still believe wrestling is real.<hr></blockquote>

Thank you for pointing this out. I always find it quite humorous when pro wrestling detractors go for the cheap shot and accuse fans of thinking it's completely unscripted. It's like "WHO exactly is the clueless one here?" ;)

Hellboy15

01-12-2003, 09:16 PM

I just feel bad for the people who still believe Survivor isn't scripted.

pupaboy

01-12-2003, 10:14 PM

You want the truth about The Truth? I like Kyle Baker but I don't think that his art style really fits this project. Personally, I think it should have been drawn by past Captain America artist, Ron Lim. I think he would have brought a lot to the project and probably sold a few more books.

Slangword

01-12-2003, 10:16 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:
Nah, mostly it's just that I get really anal about people choosing the incorrect spelling of a word over the correct one; if you think I was bad with Mark there, just be glad he didn't use "too" instead of "to" (or vice versa). Annoys the fuck out've me.<hr></blockquote>

"out've?" Was that deliberate to see if anyone noticed? ;)

--Scott

Slangword

01-12-2003, 10:20 PM

I must admit that I side with Mike S. here. I like Kyle Baker's work, but I think a less "cartoony" style would be more effective for a story about the tragic secret behind a super-hero's origin. On the other hand, we'll never know for sure, since what was printed is waht was printed.

I am glad to see tha Baker is getting lots of projects into print, though. I'd love to see the conclusion of his Shadow story done with Andy Helfer. . . .

--Scott

paulski

01-12-2003, 10:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by jawaplumber:


Thank you for pointing this out. I always find it quite humorous when pro wrestling detractors go for the cheap shot and accuse fans of thinking it's completely unscripted. It's like "WHO exactly is the clueless one here?" ;) <hr></blockquote>

As usual, jawaplumber speaks much sense.

It always bugs hell out of me when we get the condescending comments from those who have a problem with wrestling. I watch it (every single chance I get) and love it and I like to think I'm anything but a neanderthal. That's just utterly insulting. It's escapism, pure and simple, and if you don't "get it", that's your problem, not ours.

Erik Sternberger

01-13-2003, 12:36 AM

(It's Sunday, I'm allowed to stop drawing today.)

that was great! shit, take sunday off man, burnout can be a bitch.

With everyone debating artistic style, if they wanted to pick an artistic style that would sell the most books they should have gone all Dragonball Z on it...look into the sales of anime style trade paperbacks.

Other than that, the only two artists that name means anything to John Q Puplic are Jim Lee and Todd McFarlane. (but they don't know how little work they have done since the mid nineties, which is the problem)

BLACKBRIAR

01-13-2003, 01:00 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Erik Sternberger:
With everyone debating artistic style, if they wanted to pick an artistic style that would sell the most books they should have gone all Dragonball Z on it...look into the sales of anime style trade paperbacks.<hr></blockquote>

You are completely correct. In most of the big stores that carry graphic novels in my city, Cowboy Bebop is the most popular comci with kids.

What should be scary for comic fans and comic companies is that the next generation of comics readers is being raised on manga NOT the silly superhero costumed adventures to which DC and Marvel are dedicated.

Manga and its energized art style is far more appealing to kids. Kids don't want the detailed muscles and faux 'realism' most thirty year olds need (to justify their reading habits).

Manga is also packaged and priced for kids where marvel and DC are not.

Hellboy15

01-13-2003, 02:08 AM

How is manga even remotely priced for kids? Usually ten bucks or more for about three to four american issues worth, and its in black and white. The popularity has nothing to do with the price it's with the culture. Right now manga is "cool" and American comics just aren't. And buy the way if by kids you mean below the age of 13, based on my expierience working in a book store most manga readers are between 13 and 18, sure the little tots are watching fighting foodons or whatever else, but its thier older sisters buying Fushigi Yugi. By the way, I like manga and love anime, but if anyone thinks American comics problem is that they should be more like Manga, I have to disagree.

Elayne Riggs

01-13-2003, 10:27 AM

[quote]Originally written by Mike Sangiacomo:
But the truth is that while writer Robert Morales is doing a decent job, artist Kyle Baker is not.<hr></blockquote>

That's not truth at all, it's opinion. And I'm not so sure it's informed opinion either. Baker's style isn't for everyone, and while I agree that the cartoony aspects in Truth aren't as toned down as he may have indicated they might be, neither do I consider the black characters drawn as offensive stereotypes, any more than the white characters are. The storytelling is as solid as it always is from Baker, so I think you're really going to have to chalk this up to personal taste, Mike.

If anything, your opinions of art and its value in comics are suspect from the get-go of this article, which starts with an overview about the immense popularity of Ultimates and doesn't once mention the main reason the book sells so well - penciller Bryan Hitch. (No offense to Mark Millar intended, of course, but I really don't think he's the main draw for most readers picking up this title.)

- Elayne

Ed Cunard

01-13-2003, 10:34 AM

I'm happy a few people, at least, picked up on Baker's style as being fitting for the time of the story...

So far, Truth has been one of the better Marvel Comics I've picked up in a while. While the pacing is deliberately slow (which, may I add, isn't a bad thing), I've had no real argument against anything presented in the text.

Again, as Atomic City said, maybe it's an East Coast thing... but I'm digging it.

Barry

01-13-2003, 10:43 AM

Pretty art and snappy dialogue do not a great comic make. While Millar has had flashes of great characterization, his characters display bizarre split-personalities. In his need to show the nastier sides of his non-heroes, he'll have them do a complete about face, without any prior characterization to back up their sudden nastiness. I realize that Millar is just leading yet another trend in mainstream superhero comics and that folks are enjoying it, but I hope it's a trend that's short lived, as I like my heroes to be actual, y'know, heroes.

Plus, the Ultimates is really the worst name for a superhero team I've ever heard. And I've heard some pretty bad ones...

Graeme McMillan

01-13-2003, 10:49 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Erik Sternberger:
Other than that, the only two artists that name means anything to John Q Puplic are Jim Lee and Todd McFarlane. (but they don't know how little work they have done since the mid nineties, which is the problem)<hr></blockquote>

I really doubt either artist's name really means anything to the general public, to be honest. McFarlane is probably likely to be known - if at all - for his non-comics work, and I have no idea why you think Jim Lee would be known... Even at the height of the comics book of the 90s, I doubt the general public really cared who was drawing X-Men, never mind WildCATS.

Elayne Riggs

01-13-2003, 10:59 AM

[quote]Originally posted by DCD:
if a guy who reviews comics can't pick up on Kyle's style, what chance does John Q Public have....<hr></blockquote>

Possibly a much better one, as JQP might not come in with the same preconceived notions. I think Baker's style is possibly more accessible to newbies than to old-time readers used to more representational art.

- Elayne

John Osen

01-13-2003, 11:11 AM

If Baker were not a black man he would be accused of stereotyping.

You're going to judge him differently, because he's black!?! What about people who don't know he's black. The difference is all in your mind. This is racist. :(

Elayne Riggs

01-13-2003, 11:13 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:
Interestingly enough, Paul Neary is now the inker on the book... I wonder if that has anything to do with the projected increased frequency?<hr></blockquote>

No, Andrew Currie was doing fine, from what I understand he's just decided to do some pencilling again.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

01-13-2003, 11:16 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Kabukiman:
I'm not a huge fan of Currie's inking (digital inking?) on Hitch.<hr></blockquote>

No, it wasn't digital inking.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

01-13-2003, 11:51 AM

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
It's not that Baker's work is "bad," in the way that art would be if (God forbid) I ever tried to draw, but it's different, cartoony, unusual. I thought I made the point clear that Baker's work is fine for certain genres, but for what is being trumpeted as a serious refinement of the Cap legend, it's freaking goofy.<hr></blockquote>

I don't think that's how it's being trumpeted outside the comics community at all, Mike. And that seemed to be the thrust of your column, that "outsiders" wouldn't "get" the art. I think Baker's art is fine for historical fiction, which is what this story clearly is. Perhaps you're criticizing it for not being what you personally expected, rather than on its own merits?

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

01-13-2003, 11:54 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
One of the reasons I don't give Mark Millar much respect as a writer is because he does have an easy job. All he is doing is rewriting old stories to better match the sensibilities of thirty year old fan boys.<hr></blockquote>

I don't consider that an easy job at all.

[quote]I really hope he can show SOME originality.<hr></blockquote>

Please define "originality." (My personal definition is, someone thinks something is original if they don't know or have never read the actual source. :) )

[quote]I want the writers in the business to try to take the old characters and pull them in NEW directions. Can anyone do that?!<hr></blockquote>

I think, for instance, that Straczynski is doing that with Spider-Man, and all I seem to read on the message boards are complaints.

- Elayne

Barry

01-13-2003, 12:01 PM

Jamie S. Rich

01-13-2003, 12:28 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
I don’t blame Baker (well, not too much). Joe Quesada certainly knows Baker’s style and should have been smart enough to call the next person on the list.

Months ago when Quesada said that Baker was going to draw the book, I asked him if he was crazy. Baker will kill the book. Quesada said they were aware of Baker’s cartoony style but that it would be toned down for the project to a realistic level.
<hr></blockquote>

I'm guessing the whole point of Spiegelman's style in MAUS was lost on you...

MikeD

01-13-2003, 12:39 PM

Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye and Black Widow make the "Ultimates" cut, but not the Vision??? C'mon Mark, you've gotta get him in there!

Ed Cunard

01-13-2003, 01:00 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:

It's not that Baker's work is "bad," in the way that art would be if (God forbid) I ever tried to draw, but it's different, cartoony, unusual. I thought I made the point clear that Baker's work is fine for certain genres, but for what is being trumpeted as a serious refinement of the Cap legend, it's freaking goofy.
<M<hr></blockquote>

Because different and unusual automatically equals "goofy."

So, then... when Steranko started doing unusual layouts, that was goofy?

Sam Kieth's art - obviously goofy.

Jae Lee - dark, but goofy.

Goofy is certainly a highly subjective word.

Baker's art on the series actually has me interested in the visuals of comics again, as opposed to just reading for the story.

noitall

01-13-2003, 01:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ben Grim:


I was being facetious. And more polite than saying "What kind of professional writer are you if you can't tell the difference between Throw and Through?"<hr></blockquote>

Oh no!!!!English teachers are everywhere.Help!

noitall

01-13-2003, 01:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:


It could be a test: only people who know Mockingbird's maiden name, Thundra's weight, and Namorita's swimming speed are TRUE comic book fans.<hr></blockquote>

Lewis
214
60 knots

Jeremy Williams

01-13-2003, 01:23 PM

Hey if The Ultimates is a rip-off of The Authority then i`ll take fifty of those each month.

The Authority has only been done in a book called...The Authority and the "only spandex" geeks in their paranoia are seeing The Authority everywhere. It`s a super-hero group...and they are violent...RIP-OFF! It`s Joe Casey who was saying recently that the wide-screen super-hero style is "out" now. It`s already out? Jeez, what`s the fear in a book that pretty much saved the damn industry from mediocrity?! Personaly The Authority brought me back to reading comics. I thought:"if this is how comics are done now, i`m going to spend more dollars in the next few years". Indeed i discovered fantastic work such as Sentry, X-Statix, Planetary, League of extraordinary Gentlemen, Bruce Jones`Hulk, etc...

As for Authority spin-offs or rip-offs, i`m still looking for them. The Ultimates is close to that. (Thank God!) Cla$$war...for the time it lasted. The first storyline in Ultimate X-Men had that widescreen violent aspect. But all in all, the comic-book companies have not much taken advantage of the buzz and excitment provided by The Authority. I`ve been looking around the spend my money on who would want to take the torch and amazes us "we" fan of The Authority but it has been void for the most part. Bad business decision? You bet! Spandex has not yet embrassed the widescreen more realistic approach of the Authority sadly...You look at most books and they`re still stuck in 1965!

Barry

01-13-2003, 02:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
Hey if The Ultimates is a rip-off of The Authority then i`ll take fifty of those each month.

The Authority has only been done in a book called...The Authority and the "only spandex" geeks in their paranoia are seeing The Authority everywhere. It`s a super-hero group...and they are violent...RIP-OFF! It`s Joe Casey who was saying recently that the wide-screen super-hero style is "out" now. It`s already out? Jeez, what`s the fear in a book that pretty much saved the damn industry from mediocrity?! Personaly The Authority brought me back to reading comics. I thought:"if this is how comics are done now, i`m going to spend more dollars in the next few years". Indeed i discovered fantastic work such as Sentry, X-Statix, Planetary, League of extraordinary Gentlemen, Bruce Jones`Hulk, etc...

As for Authority spin-offs or rip-offs, i`m still looking for them. The Ultimates is close to that. (Thank God!) Cla$$war...for the time it lasted. The first storyline in Ultimate X-Men had that widescreen violent aspect. But all in all, the comic-book companies have not much taken advantage of the buzz and excitment provided by The Authority. I`ve been looking around the spend my money on who would want to take the torch and amazes us "we" fan of The Authority but it has been void for the most part. Bad business decision? You bet! Spandex has not yet embrassed the widescreen more realistic approach of the Authority sadly...You look at most books and they`re still stuck in 1965!<hr></blockquote>

Funny, you're refering to books that are no longer all ages appropriate, which means kids can't read 'em. Which also means sales remain in the toilet along with the rest of the industry.

And besides, the Authority worked best viewed as a 12 issue miniseries from Ellis, Hitch and Neary. Afterwards the book was too weighted down with it's own self-conscious attempt at being cleaver and cynical.

mike sangiacomo

01-13-2003, 02:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Barry:


Wow. Can you say "bad journalism"?<hr></blockquote>

Dude, Mark did say it. He changed his mind at some point thereafter since the con over Thanksgiving. I wrote this a while back but didn't get it in until recently because I took some time off.
Shit happens.

Barry

01-13-2003, 02:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:


Dude, Mark did say it. He changed his mind at some point thereafter since the con over Thanksgiving. I wrote this a while back but didn't get it in until recently because I took some time off.
Shit happens.<hr></blockquote>

You don't fact check your articles before you submit them?

BLACKBRIAR

01-13-2003, 03:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:

I don't consider that an easy job at all.
<hr></blockquote>

Reinterpreting something is way easier than having to start from scratch. Its like the difference between penciling and inking.

I am not say anything like, "Mark Millar sucks!" I am just saying that if you compare Mark Millar to say a Christopher Priest, Priest is doing the heavy lifting. (Priest is not simply rewriting old stories.)

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:

Please define "originality." (My personal definition is, someone thinks something is original if they don't know or have never read the actual source. )<hr></blockquote>

In this case "originality" would be diverting from plotlines in the original text.

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


I think, for instance, that Straczynski is doing that with Spider-Man, and all I seem to read on the message boards are complaints.

- Elayne<hr></blockquote>

Everything after "and" makes me laugh.

A message board containing complaints?!

This is unheard of!! Bwa ha ha heh.

Elayne Riggs

01-13-2003, 05:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
Reinterpreting something is way easier than having to start from scratch. Its like the difference between penciling and inking.<hr></blockquote>

In the sense of them being slightly different disciplines, sure, but I know a heck of a lot of pencillers who can't ink. And I still take exception to your characterization of it as "way easier." I actually think it's tougher to reinterpret old stories because readers have seen them so many times before. I think it's an equally valid (or invalid) view to opine that starting from stratch is a cinch comparatively, because you don't need to concern yourself with burdens of history and continuity and weaving your stories into what's going on elsewhere and readers' expectations and all those lovely albatrosses.

[quote]I am just saying that if you compare Mark Millar to say a Christopher Priest, Priest is doing the heavy lifting.<hr></blockquote>

And I know a lot of folks who feel exactly the opposite, that Mark's stuff is way more accessible than Jim's for instance. I think you're still doing both writers a disservice to assume one of them has an easier job than the other. They write different types of stories, is all, not "easier" or "harder" ones.

- Elayne

jawaplumber

01-13-2003, 05:38 PM

[quote]Originally posted by paulski:


As usual, jawaplumber speaks much sense.

It always bugs hell out of me when we get the condescending comments from those who have a problem with wrestling. I watch it (every single chance I get) and love it and I like to think I'm anything but a neanderthal. That's just utterly insulting. It's escapism, pure and simple, and if you don't "get it", that's your problem, not ours.<hr></blockquote>

Shhh, I have a reputation to uphold as an ignorant sports entertainment fan, so watch the "making sense" comments ;) And you're right, it's someone else's loss if they can't appreciate wrestling for what it is. They don't need to be fans or care one way or another about it, it's just lame when they try to knock it down.

Barry

01-13-2003, 05:58 PM

jawaplumber

01-13-2003, 06:16 PM

You know, I've watched these two debates regarding THE ULTIMATES and THE TRUTH carry on for the past few days, and I think the shame about it is that it really just comes down to a matter of personal taste, yet so few of us seem to realize this. We either just say something "sucks", or we spend hours of our day coming up with grand explanations for why something sucks. It's kinda sad, really, because for all the explanations, it STILL just comes down to a matter of personal taste. I know I was critical of those who didn't "get" Kyle Baker's art on THE TRUTH, but as I said then, I say again now: it's THEIR loss, not mine, and not Kyle Baker's. And you know something else: it's not even Marvel's loss, in the grand scheme of things (maybe only in the short term). Sure, there was some publicity surrounding this comic, but it wasn't like it was a major Hollywood movie like, say...oh, wasn't there one that came out last summer that kicked ass at the box office and helped thrust Marvel back into the public eye, along with Marvel's own successful marketing and capitalization on the opportunity of such a spotlight? Yeah....I think it was called....SPIDER-MAN!?!?! Trust me, folks, even if THE TRUTH only sold one copy, it's not gonna break Marvel. Besides, responsible comic book stores (as I know a lot of my local stores are) should have people working there who recognize new customers and should (without being too annoying or pushy) try to introduce them to alternatives other than or in addition to THE TRUTH. Just think about "The Death Of Superman". Was that such an artistic masterpiece? It was cool for Superman fans, young and old, but I don't think it impressed this mysterious, prejudged-artistically clueless "John Q Public" we keep talking about ;) It certainly brought him to the comic book rack, though. The same can be said of THE TRUTH, and potentially RAWHIDE KID, whether they are creative successes in everyone's eyes or not (especially in the case of THE TRUTH, because there are indeed lots of folks who have appreciated and enjoyed it). That's good enough for me to give Marvel a thumbs up.

BLACKBRIAR

01-13-2003, 06:21 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
And I know a lot of folks who feel exactly the opposite, that Mark's stuff is way more accessible than Jim's for instance. I think you're still doing both writers a disservice to assume one of them has an easier job than the other. They write different types of stories, is all, not "easier" or "harder" ones.
<hr></blockquote>

The issue of accessiblity is a red herring and has nothing to do with the discussion.

Your perspective is very nuturing. I think you should just call both Millar and Priest "special" and hug them both. (So that the ugly child doesn't feel different.)

If you were a writer, your perspective would be different.

It is a lot more difficult to create and manage your own continuity rather than redo a previous body of work.

jawaplumber

01-13-2003, 06:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


And I know a lot of folks who feel exactly the opposite, that Mark's stuff is way more accessible than Jim's for instance. I think you're still doing both writers a disservice to assume one of them has an easier job than the other. They write different types of stories, is all, not "easier" or "harder" ones.

- Elayne<hr></blockquote>

I would just like to say I'm glad there's other people around here who can be fair and unbiased, as I do my best to be at all times, during a discussion. Not just to Elayne, but to everyone else with a similiar attitude, I say thank you for helping me keep the faith :)

Positive Man

01-13-2003, 08:59 PM

[quote]
Originally posted by Ben Grim:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mark Millar2:
Of course, we change our minds every day regarding content and through out SCREEDS of possible stuff so this could change.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark, THROW. You THROW out screeds of possible stuff every day (and end up going for lame Matrix rip-offs, going by the preview pages of Ultimates 8). Use your spell-check, huh? <hr></blockquote>

Wow! Does your spell check replace words you accidentally used with the word you MEANT to use? Cool. My spell-check would have looked at the word "through" and left it there, because it's spelled correctly. :)

Actually, I'm getting a little tired of reading one person jumping all over another person because they either used the wrong word in error or mispelled something in their haste. Do we have to be so nit-picky? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Graeme McMillan

01-13-2003, 09:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Positive Man:


Wow! Does your spell check replace words you accidentally used with the word you MEANT to use? Cool. My spell-check would have looked at the word "through" and left it there, because it's spelled correctly. :)

Actually, I'm getting a little tired of reading one person jumping all over another person because they either used the wrong word in error or mispelled something in their haste. Do we have to be so nit-picky? :confused: <hr></blockquote>

One more time:

I was taking the piss. Not insulting Mark. Taking the piss. Not being serious. Please understand this.

hjcho

01-13-2003, 09:31 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hap Collins:
I think it's sad that Kyle Baker of all people would be accused of producing shitwork. In an industry rife with hacks and the uninspired, I always look forward to whatever Baker is putting out.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Baker clearly combined stereotypical period images with more subtle visual commentary to paint a vivid portrait of the times. It is obvious if you note the dramatic depiction of Maurice and Luke juxtaposed with the cartoonish support characters. Interestingly, the charicatures are generally Caucasian characters. Baker is a masterful stylist, and I believe that every line, every tone is deliberate, executed with the advancement of the story in mind.

danzo

01-13-2003, 10:31 PM

[quote]

In my experience, Joe Q Public tends to be drawn to more expressive cartoon work rather than the faux realistic style preffered by most thirty year old fanboys (who need to realistic art to feel good about spending large amounts of money on men in tights).<hr></blockquote>

yup, i'd definately have to agree with that; and as a guy who's long been a comics evangelist i've offered out loans of hundreds of comics.... the ones that the non-comics types seem to like best are always the more stylized "cartoony" (say, darknight, maus)or "pretty-painterly" type books. the classic superhero looks of the 40's-60's do ok, the modern superhero stuff comes in a rather distinct last. it's an aquired taste. and while we're at it, non-superhero stuff, especially fantasy and humor seem much more appealing to the non-comics reader. curiously "matrix" type stuff which is basically super-heroes in cool clothes instead of costumes does well too.

danzo

01-13-2003, 11:14 PM

oh, and as an artist (no, not a professional comics one) i have to comment on a few other points brought up here.
first, Baker is indeed doing a great job on the Truth; his work is beautifully evocative of the period, and like the cute simplistic work in Maus, it works as a psychological offset to the more disturbing elements of the story....
and about this bit regarding the relative easiness of creative tasks, my two cents.
first, yes, it is easier to re-interpret that which exists than to create from scratch. the only trick is making it interesting, fresh, and logical in the changes.... at least in comics; if you want to try to re-write Shakespeare, well then good luck to you.
second, about pencillers who can't ink (yes, this is for you Ms. Riggs) the only reason they can't is because they spend very little or no time doing so. back in the 90's when i was trying to break into comics as an artist/writer one of the road-blocks offered up by editors was that i only pencilled; to be a salable commodity, they said, i needed to be a fully-rounded artist: ie: i needed to be an inker first, then a penciller, and then with luck, maybe someone would let me write. so i learned to ink. took a few years, but i dare say i can match lines with all but the very best in the field, all it took was a lot of doing it. the funny part is that i now prefer inking and feel i'm actually better at it than as a penciller. and, yes, it is easier. and way more fun. (unless you get stuck inking a really poor penciller, then suddenly you might be doing nearly all the work)
the point? yup, re-working is definately easier. and more fun.
but a second point here is that it's just as easy to screw-up the work in whichever mode you are working, respect should be based on the results, not the origins.

Kabukiman

01-13-2003, 11:54 PM

[quote]Originally posted by pupaboy:
Personally, I think it should have been drawn by past Captain America artist, Ron Lim.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, then we could have had black people who look like white people with brown makeup instead of black people who look like black people.

Kabukiman

01-13-2003, 11:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


No, it wasn't digital inking.

- Elayne<hr></blockquote>

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up. I had read a rumour that it was digital but wasn't sure.

Positive Man

01-14-2003, 12:55 AM

[quote] Originally posted by Ben Grim:

One more time:

I was taking the piss. Not insulting Mark. Taking the piss. Not being serious. Please understand this. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I have to apologise. I read your original explanation AFTER I posted that. Didn't mean to bring up something that had already been dealt with...

MichaelCoughlin

01-14-2003, 12:59 AM

Uh, what does "taking the piss" mean? I've never heard that term before in my life.

QCCBob

01-14-2003, 01:31 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


No, it wasn't digital inking.

- Elayne<hr></blockquote>

Speaking of inking, pass along to Robin huge kudos for the job he did over Alan Davis on Thor!!! That was a magnificent job! They should work together more often.

Robin Riggs

01-14-2003, 06:23 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Kabukiman:


Cool. Thanks for clearing that up. I had read a rumour that it was digital but wasn't sure.<hr></blockquote>

If you go to <a href="http://theartofcomics.com/" target="_blank">http://theartofcomics.com/</a> you can see the inked originals for sale.

KidQuantum

01-14-2003, 06:26 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:


Sangiacomo:

I don't want to rag on you too much, since you are taking a lot of flack already and you actually go out on the limb and state your personal opinions ...

BUT I think here your fanboy tastes are showing.

In my experience, Joe Q Public tends to be drawn to more expressive cartoon work rather than the faux realistic style preffered by most thirty year old fanboys (who need to realistic art to feel good about spending large amounts of money on men in tights).<hr></blockquote>

I'm not even going to get started on my opinion of the quality of Sangiacomo's reviews again, but I think that Blackbriar has an excellent point.

Look at Free Comic Boy Day, particularly DC and Marvel's entries. I don't know what Marvel is throwing out this year (probably something else they printed more copies of than the bible) but Ultimate Spider-Man 1? Cartoony. Ty Templeton's Justice League Adventures 1? Cartoony. The NEW Ty Templeton Batman Adventures 1? Cartoony. Why not Batman 608? It's one of the more acclaimed books of the last year and not cartoony in the least... Why not Ultimates number whatever? Hitch is a stunning artist...

So Sangiacomo, what do you know about John Q. Public that the guys picking these titles don't?

Kyle Baker doing a bad job... good grief, man... Have you ever even heard of Tex Avery?

And no, I didn't make it through all 6 pages before I had to respond... although, welcome back Little Kon-El!

--------------------

Of course, this is all just MY opinion...

Robin Riggs

01-14-2003, 06:30 AM

[quote]Originally posted by QCCBob:


Speaking of inking, pass along to Robin huge kudos for the job he did over Alan Davis on Thor!!! That was a magnificent job! They should work together more often.<hr></blockquote>

Thank you very much. I hope you like the Iron Man issue that's out tomorrow too. It's always an immense pleasure working with Alan. For my money Davis and Farmer is still the best team in comics so I'm happy to just help out when I can.

Graeme McMillan

01-14-2003, 09:21 AM

[quote]Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:
Uh, what does "taking the piss" mean? I've never heard that term before in my life.<hr></blockquote>

Generically, just not being serious.

Alan Coil

01-14-2003, 01:09 PM

To KING, KABUKIMAN, and JAWAPLUMBER:

There *are* people who still think that pro-wrestling is "real-time and spontaneous". I've heard them at work, at the LCS, and in the general public. Also, they are not 10 years old.

Also, I did not say that one could not enjoy professional wrestling. I've been watching it since the 60s. Bobo Brazil and Dick the Bruiser would kick butt today. Them fellas knew how to put the hurt on a guy.

Jeremy Williams

01-14-2003, 02:18 PM

Posted by Barry:

Funny, you're refering to books that are no longer all ages appropriate, which means kids can't read 'em. Which also means sales remain in the toilet along with the rest of the industry.

And besides, the Authority worked best viewed as a 12 issue miniseries from Ellis, Hitch and Neary. Afterwards the book was too weighted down with it's own self-conscious attempt at being cleaver and cynical.

Jeez, talk about a pointless post...! If that`s your attitude then i would rather you don`t respond to my posts. The "all-age" excuse is only for those pumped on Silver age comic-book fantasies that want for their books to stay the same. Indeed some time after i rediscovered the medium with the more mature/challenging work, i found a backlash about it by looking at the internet. It`s just weird guys, give it up! Kara Zorel is just a fantasy. Those characters are not real. Say it with me: IT`S NOT FLESH AND BLOOD :cool:

jawaplumber

01-14-2003, 05:58 PM

Elayne Riggs

01-14-2003, 11:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
The issue of accessiblity is a red herring and has nothing to do with the discussion.<hr></blockquote>

I disagree; I'm sure there are people who believe writing stories that are accessible to readers is certainly harder to do than writing stories that are obscure or in-jokey.

[quote]Your perspective is very nuturing. I think you should just call both Millar and Priest "special" and hug them both. (So that the ugly child doesn't feel different.)<hr></blockquote>

Actually, I have hugged Priest and have probably hugged Millar but I can't remember. I find them both attractive gentlemen, so I'm afraid your "ugly child" analogy doesn't really fit my particular situation. :)

[quote]If you were a writer, your perspective would be different.<hr></blockquote>

If I were a writer?

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

01-14-2003, 11:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by jawaplumber:
I would just like to say I'm glad there's other people around here who can be fair and unbiased, as I do my best to be at all times, during a discussion. Not just to Elayne, but to everyone else with a similiar attitude, I say thank you for helping me keep the faith :) <hr></blockquote>

All part of being a writer, Jawa. ;)

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

01-14-2003, 11:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by danzo:
second, about pencillers who can't ink (yes, this is for you Ms. Riggs)<hr></blockquote>

Hey Danzo, how's that website reconstruction coming along? Some of us are impatient. :)

 [quote]the only reason they can't is because they spend very little or no time doing so.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I'm sure that's true for some. For others, however, it's very much a different discipline to them.

[quote]back in the 90's when i was trying to break into comics as an artist/writer one of the road-blocks offered up by editors was that i only pencilled; to be a salable commodity, they said, i needed to be a fully-rounded artist: ie: i needed to be an inker first, then a penciller, and then with luck, maybe someone would let me write.<hr></blockquote>

Generally that's a great rule of thumb. In fact, my husband follows that, it's how he learned to do comic art in England where the assembly-line method is (or was) seen as something of a false division of labor. But I don't actually hear a lot of editors saying that now, many of the ones I've seen are more interested in very specific flap-A's-into-slot-B's.

[quote]the funny part is that i now prefer inking and feel i'm actually better at it than as a penciller. and, yes, it is easier. and way more fun.<hr></blockquote>

Sounds like a technique you feel you're much more suited for, in which case congrats, I'm happy for you.

- Elayne

rdcoyner

01-15-2003, 06:24 PM

I'm with jawaplumber for two reasons on Kyle Baker's art. One, it seems like they wanted something evocative of the 40s with the art, and this works a great deal in that respect. Kind of how certain directors now alter their filmstock so that it reflects the time-period it's set in. For a good example, Blow by Ted Demme used different filmstock for each time period it took place in (across four decades I believe) to match the materials of the time. I think it works for the story well.

Beyond that, Baker's artwork may appeal more to non-mainstream people than the scantily clad big tits all muscle style of people like Frank Quitely or American Neo-Manga than you'd think. I don't have a lot of friends who are into comic books but most that I hang out with respond to the art you see in a series like Gun-Fu, Jimmy Corrigan or Slow Jams (three wildly different, but extremely cartoony styles) more than the pseudo-realistic Bryan Hitches of the world. As my girlfriend said about why she can tolerate Eduardo Risso (who IMHO, is somewhat similar to Baker) but not Jim Lee, "if you're gonna illustrate it, go all the way. Otherwise just go make a movie."