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MattBrady
03-11-2003, 10:46 AM
<center><a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Thousand_Flowers_index.htm"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flowers_banner.jpg" width="475" height="75" border="0"></a></center>

<center>A THOUSAND FLOWERS</center><center>Comics, Pop Culture, and the World Outside</center><center>Installment 13</center><center>by Stuart Moore</center>

Give Me Liberty…

We’ve all been there: worked at a job for a while, put in your time, done some good work and maybe some not-so-good work. And there comes a time when you think, I’ve paid my dues -- I deserve better.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flowers13a.jpg" width="300" height="280" border="0" align="right">In 1968, a group of veteran DC writers got together to lobby for improved treatment. Up to that point, creative people in comics -- with a few very rare exceptions such as Will Eisner, who’d crafted his own deals -- gave away all rights to their work for a single paycheck. These writers, along with one artist (Kurt Schaffenberger), decided they were worth more. They wanted a better deal.

Mike W. Barr’s excellent article “The Madames and the Girls” (see bibiography) covers the details of this not-quite-unionization attempt. Barr quotes Arnold Drake, veteran writer and creator of The Doom Patrol:

“[The writers’ movement] was not about page rates. It was more complicated than that. Page rates are significant, but they did not go to the crux of the thing. The true crux of the thing was the matter of giving the writers some kind of ownership…if not actual ownership, then at least a kind of participation. That was the real issue.”

DC management didn’t respond well to this. The various writers involved were all either fired or edged out over time, and artists were shuffled around as well. In Barr’s article, Mike Friedrich, who broke in as one of the younger “replacement writers” around this time, is quoted as suggesting that management was already dissatisfied with the older writers’ work, and may have seen this as an excuse for getting rid of them. “It’s conceivable, if somebody started to agitate as a writer, that they could perceive that they were being forced out for that agitation, where in fact they could also well have been forced out because they weren’t producing what the market wanted to read.”

This goes straight to a recurring controversy in the comics field: professionalism vs. commercial star-power. On the one hand, a publisher naturally wants to reward the journeyman writer or penciller who’s been there, day in and day out, for years, who turns in his work on time and pitches in when there’s an emergency, who’s good to work with. On the other hand, a company has to keep an eye out for what’s hot -- for who the readers want, and who’s turning in the most exciting work.

And sometimes, journeymen lose their spark, and it’s a very tough task to coax them back into doing their best work. You don’t want to take an artist who’s always been there for you and throw him out in the cold, especially in a field with notoriously poor benefits and a small number of companies to work for. But if another artist’s work is better -- or more commercial -- don’t you owe it to the readers to hire him instead?

The comics field of 1968 was a narrow one. Distribution was still largely controlled by DC, which had a reputation for stodgy, child-oriented comics, as opposed to Marvel’s sharper, edgier material. Comic shops didn’t exist -- just the newsstand market, which even then was stuck in a slow, steady decline. Aside from blips like the Batman TV show (which briefly caused sales of that comic to skyrocket), there wasn’t much room for growth.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flowers13b.jpg" width="400" height="186" border="0" align="left">That’s a tough environment to take a stand in. Management isn’t likely to improve working conditions when the company is tightening its belt all around. There was certainly justice in what the DC writers were asking for -- but, looked at from a purely economic standpoint, it’s not surprising they didn’t get it.

Let’s jump forward in time now, to the early ‘80s.

In late 1980, Marvel Comics launched its latest title, Dazzler, in an unusual way: The first issue was available only through comic shops, not on newsstands. It seemed like a gamble, but sales were extraordinary -- in excess of 400,000 copies, sold non-returnably.

Suddenly the Direct Market was, well, a market. And the nonreturnable nature of its business -- comics were sold to shops at a higher discount than newsstand sales, but with no option for shops to return them for credit -- made it a no-risk business for publishers, as long as a certain minimum sales could be guaranteed. Which meant, in turn, that small companies could compete with the big boys.

The first two companies to jump full-force into this new frontier were Pacific Comics and Eclipse. They recruited an impressive crop of veteran artists and writers to original projects: Jack Kirby, Neal Adams, Mike Grell, Steve Englehart, Steve Gerber, Don McGregor, Jim Starlin, and many other bright lights of ‘70s and ‘80s comics. First Comics soon followed, bringing over Howard Chaykin, Martin Pasko, Joe Staton, and others.

The independent comics companies of the early ‘80s also nurtured new talents, and produced an interestingly varied batch of work. And more alternative companies like Fantagraphics took the torch of the undergrounds and nurtured a new generation of truly alternative cartoonists. We’ll deal with all of that another time.

But for now, let’s stick with the “ground-level” publishers, the ones that chose to compete head-on with Marvel and DC. What was it they offered that made it some of the highest profile writers and artists of the time switch camps?

As with the DC writers of the ‘60s, it wasn’t (just) money -- it was rights. And, along with rights, creative freedom.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flagg.jpg" width="300" height="456" border="0" align="right">In 1981, neither DC nor Marvel had a deal in place that would allow Jack Kirby to publishCaptain Victory, Neal Adams to publish Ms> Mystic, Mike Grell to publish Starslayer, Howard Chaykin to publish American Flagg!, or Michael Moorcock and P. Craig Russell to publish Elric in comics form -- and keep the copyrights and trademarks to themselves. They probably wouldn’t have been comfortable with the sexual content in Elric and Flagg!, either.

This encroachment into the big companies’ market share didn’t go unnoticed, of course. Marvel has always moved faster than DC, and by 1983 they had launched Epic Comics, extending a publishing program begun a few years before with the magazine Epic Illustrated. Masterfully run by Archie Goodwin, Epic matched the rights offered by the smaller companies, backed by the advantage of Marvel’s big purse-strings. DC, for their part, slowly built up a reputation as a good place to work and made special deals for people like Frank Miller, finally implementing an actual creator-ownership deal in 1989.

The early ‘80s was a good time for creators to push for rights. Those Dazzler sales had, uh, dazzled everyone; suddenly it was as though a curtain had been pulled aside, revealing a whole new audience willing and eager to spend its money. And the economics of the direct market made it possible to earn a profit even on lower-selling titles, because no copies were wasted. Suddenly there were opportunities everywhere; if you were a well-regarded artist, why would you spend all your time getting a paycheck at a time for each issue of Daredevil, when you could do your own work, own it, be paid decently, and still reach a substantial audience?

The moral: It’s generally smarter to agitate when the market is expanding than when it’s contracting. Your employers have more incentive, and more room, to accommodate you. And, as George Clooney has noted, it’s also smarter to push the envelope when you yourself are a hot property, rather than waiting till you cool down. (And no matter how hot you are, you will, eventually, cool down.)

The comics writers of the ‘60s were frustrated. They felt trapped within a system that wasn’t reaching out, wasn’t benefiting them or even, in the long run, their employers. It’s no wonder they wanted change. But the economics were against them. The early ‘80s were a whole different, wide open ball game.

In the mid-‘80s, things changed again. It would take a much longer essay than this one to fully explore the various gluts and shifts in the direct market, but eventually there was just too much product going through the system -- and comics that once would have been sure things just weren’t anymore. By that time, too, some of the bright lights of comics just weren’t shining so brightly anymore or, like Neal Adams, published so infrequently that they lost steam with any extended narratives they tried to present.

By the time the “Creators’ Bill of Rights” was written by a group of prominent creative people, spearheaded by Scott McCloud and Steve Bissette, the winds had already shifted. Progress had been made; most of the major companies had at least some form of creator-ownership contract in place. But the market, ever conservative, was growing less interested in new properties. What did the creators do?

We’ll deal with that next time…

Bibliography

Mike W. Barr, “The Madames and the Girls: The DC Writers Purge of 1968” (COMIC BOOK ARTIST #5, Summer 1999; reprinted in THE COMIC BOOK ARTIST COLLECTION Vol. 2, available at <a href="http://twomorrows.com/books.html)" target="_blank">http://twomorrows.com/books.html)</a>

“A Bill of Rights for Comics Creators” (http://www.scottmccloud.com/inventions/bill/bill_of_rights.html)

**

Stuart Moore’s comics work: Go to <a href="http://www.rocketcomics.net" target="_blank">http://www.rocketcomics.net</a> , <a href="http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1958," target="_blank">http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1958,</a> and <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000094" target="_blank">http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000094</a> for a look at LONE, launching in summer 2003, with a special 10-page stand-alone preview story in ROCKET COMICS: IGNITE, Dark Horse’s contribution to Free Comic Book Day in May. Issue #6 of ZENDRA: HEART OF FIRE, the conclusion of my epic science fiction series from Penny-Farthing Press, is out now; more info on the trade paperback of the first ZENDRA series can be found at <a href="http://www.pfpress.com" target="_blank">http://www.pfpress.com</a> . Then visit my message boards at <a href="http://www.joequesada.com" target="_blank">http://www.joequesada.com</a> and we’ll continue this discussion there. See you in 14 days!

JohnPopa
03-11-2003, 10:56 AM
I love the fact that the entire structure of the comics industry is basically based on the relative success of 'Dazzler' #1.

And we wonder why we're looking for new ideas.

Nick Borelli
03-11-2003, 11:27 AM
It is a surprise there is no interest in doing an updated Dazzler book now. You could do it like an Osbournes show meets manufactured pop star...but with a mutant...

Rand
03-11-2003, 11:53 AM
Quick comment, then I read through the article.

Link on the main page goes to the other article (the one by the people doing the New Mutants... now doing the cop story). Just FYI!

JohnPopa
03-11-2003, 12:06 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nick Borelli:
<strong>It is a surprise there is no interest in doing an updated Dazzler book now. You could do it like an Osbournes show meets manufactured pop star...but with a mutant...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't encourage them.

Anders Wolleck
03-11-2003, 12:18 PM
I don't understand. Why is this a column? It seems like a reiteration of things that have already been fleshed out in a dozen different places. Stuart Moore I guess is trying to make people aware of the those creator's rights movements. But Comics Journal has published this a few times. In the Kirby interview book, also in the Comic Book Artist compilation book. Stuart doesn't exactly add a new spin to any of it.

Taylor Porter
03-11-2003, 12:47 PM
I tend to agree with Anders' above post. Stuart's columns always seem like they're missing something. To me, they're just brief history lessons that don't really argue or prove anything.

Elayne Riggs
03-11-2003, 12:48 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nick Borelli:
<strong>It is a surprise there is no interest in doing an updated Dazzler book now. You could do it like an Osbournes show meets manufactured pop star...but with a mutant...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Celeb-tinged reality show, I'm telling you. I can't believe there haven't been more comics from Marvel or DC that have jumped on this trend. Dazzler lends herself perfectly to that phenom.

Nice background article, Stuart. Just goes to show you, the more things change... Still no comics union in existence, only a few advocacy groups (Friends of Lulu, ACTOR, the CBLDF), and comics are still a "young man's game" (okay, maybe "young person's game" now).

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs
03-11-2003, 12:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Taylor Porter:
<strong>Stuart's columns always seem like they're missing something. To me, they're just brief history lessons that don't really argue or prove anything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Think of them as serialized chapters in a book that Stuart's writing. We get to read the chapters before they're tightened up and placed in the book in their final form (possibly updated with input from these threads).

- Elayne

Francis Barel
03-11-2003, 01:51 PM
I would say that it's an honor for me to agree with Elayne.
For some of us, such as myself, these information come to us for the first time... Never forget: somewhere in the world, every comic is someone's first comic... Same goes for this column and its content...

Barry
03-11-2003, 01:55 PM
Great column. Always interested in reading about the history of the industry. Even if I've read about it before, there's always something new to learn.

Cliffy
03-11-2003, 02:07 PM
A very interesting column this time out -- 400,000 copies of Dazzler #1? Jeez!

--Cliffy

Daniel Harvey
03-11-2003, 02:40 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nick Borelli:
<strong>It is a surprise there is no interest in doing an updated Dazzler book now. You could do it like an Osbournes show meets manufactured pop star...but with a mutant...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Celeb-tinged reality show, I'm telling you. I can't believe there haven't been more comics from Marvel or DC that have jumped on this trend. Dazzler lends herself perfectly to that phenom.

Nice background article, Stuart. Just goes to show you, the more things change... Still no comics union in existence, only a few advocacy groups (Friends of Lulu, ACTOR, the CBLDF), and comics are still a "young man's game" (okay, maybe "young person's game" now).

- Elayne</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess no one's reading X-Statix? :)

I was thinking about the lack of comic unions this morning so I enjoyed the persepctive on the article.

FireLight
03-11-2003, 02:59 PM
I enjoyed this light-shiner. I don't follow the other trades - don't have time - and this was the first time I'd heard this all in one place. I'd read pits & pieces of it enough to be familiar with this, but that's all.

But there is a funny thing about this story.

The reference to creators wanting 'more' respect or money during a time when the industry is expanding rings like a precursor to the Image movement in the early-to-mid-90's.

History is doomed to repeat itself?

Thanks Stuart.

BLACKBRIAR
03-11-2003, 03:15 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Taylor Porter:
<strong>Stuart's columns always seem like they're missing something. To me, they're just brief history lessons that don't really argue or prove anything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Think of them as serialized chapters in a book that Stuart's writing. We get to read the chapters before they're tightened up and placed in the book in their final form (possibly updated with input from these threads).

- Elayne</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to agree with Taylor. Even if this is just a practice run for a book, the pieces have to stand alone for themselves--or this series looks amateurish.

The problem I have with this column is that it often deals with subject matter I already am familiar with (as would anyone who has been collecting comics for more than 10 years) and the column often doesn't add anything new, not even spicy or exciting prose.

MikeD
03-11-2003, 04:58 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:

The problem I have with this column is that it often deals with subject matter I already am familiar with (as would anyone who has been collecting comics for more than 10 years).[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So don't read it.

I've been a collector for 20 years, and while I am familiar with the origins of the direct market, Dazzler's place in history, and the impact of the early `80s independents, I had never heard of DC's `68 purge. Thus, I found the column to be informative, and I enjoyed the parallels Stuart drew between the eras.

Jaffer Batica
03-11-2003, 05:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nick Borelli:
<strong>It is a surprise there is no interest in doing an updated Dazzler book now. You could do it like an Osbournes show meets manufactured pop star...but with a mutant...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was that interview in Wizard a couple of months ago with Axel Alonzo where he got on the phone in the middle of the interview to call somebody about a revamped Dazzler. But comics proposals are getting to be like movie pitches, that is, pitched right into the trash.

Besides, who wants a revamped Dazzler when Steeltown Rockers are just begging for a sequel? And why doesn't Marvel own the rights to Jem and the Holograms yet?!

William Coate
03-11-2003, 10:07 PM
I find it kind of amusing that people are complaining that they have read this history before. Don't they realize that not everyone is familiar with this history and would like to know more?

There always seems to be a complainer.

I really hope that these chapters are collected like Warren Ellis’s Come in Alone.

Interpretation is everything and while this may be old news to some it is fascinating to learn this history through someone else’s perspective.

William Coate

BLACKBRIAR
03-11-2003, 11:25 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by William Coate:
<strong>I find it kind of amusing that people are complaining that they have read this history before. Don't they realize that not everyone is familiar with this history and would like to know more?

There always seems to be a complainer.

I really hope that these chapters are collected like Warren Ellis’s Come in Alone.

Interpretation is everything and while this may be old news to some it is fascinating to learn this history through someone else’s perspective.

William Coate</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am always amazed at the bitchiness of the geeks here and of course the inability for you guys to possess good reading skills.

If Moore is so determined to tread on familiar territory here, then it is also his responsibility as a columnist to make the material engaging for those who are ignorant as well as those who are not.

Truth be told I don't often read this column but almost every time I am attracted by the synopisis on the main page, I finish the article either wishing for more depth, a longer piece, or a stronger voice from the columnist.

MindTricked
03-11-2003, 11:37 PM
After 1602 (or whatever), Dazzler will be Gaiman's next project, with art from UDON (see that Deadpool issue).

Ahhh... the medication has finally kicked in :)

Anyway, I love reading stuff like this - history can be dry, unless you're interested in the subject matter. I can't honestly say I've enjoyed all of the "A Thousand Flowers" columns, but they're always an interesting read.

It's just funny how things tend to repeat themselves - I wonder if anyone will ever get it right?

William Coate
03-12-2003, 02:51 AM
Why does it require good reading skills to enjoy something that you don't?

Not every piece that Moore has written has been my cup of tea but I don't need to cry about how it didn't entertain me.

It works or it doesn't work. Get over it. It's not the end of the world! Sheesh.

WC

JimHughs4
03-12-2003, 09:32 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>I am always amazed at the bitchiness of the geeks here and of course the inability for you guys to possess good reading skills.

If Moore is so determined to tread on familiar territory here, then it is also his responsibility as a columnist to make the material engaging for those who are ignorant as well as those who are not.

Truth be told I don't often read this column but almost every time I am attracted by the synopisis on the main page, I finish the article either wishing for more depth, a longer piece, or a stronger voice from the columnist.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">'Briar, this is the perfect example of how you can't please everyone. This material is not aimed at you or I, who are already familiar with the topic covered. It's done as information for those who don't know, maybe with a little cultural context. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but this isn't something we should complain about. JH

Tue Sorensen
03-12-2003, 09:33 AM
Hey Stuart, cool readin' - I'm still waiting for your stab at Robert McKee, though! :-)

Stuart Moore
03-12-2003, 09:59 AM
When I mentioned I was planning a column on McKee, I got an e-mail from an old boss of mine (outside comics) urging me to examine the situation carefully. He was right. So I'm taking my time on that one, but it is coming. Rest assured, though, it'll contain some spicy prose.

Thanks to everybody for commenting. Not every column's aimed at the longtime comics fan, but I always try to put a few things together that haven't been considered that way (i.e., artistic conditions in the '60s vs. the '80s -- and how they relate to the outside world, which is the overall theme of the column).

Best,
Stuart

BLACKBRIAR
03-12-2003, 06:42 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JimHughs4:
<strong>[QUOTE]'Briar, this is the perfect example of how you can't please everyone. This material is not aimed at you or I, who are already familiar with the topic covered. It's done as information for those who don't know, maybe with a little cultural context. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but this isn't something we should complain about. JH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are completely wrong. This column, because of the very fact that it is running here on one of the most heavily trafficked ALL COMIC BOOK messages boards, is aimed at an audience with significant knowledge of the subject matter.

Today, there are very FEW if any casual comics fans for many reasons--this is why the industry is in the state it is in. PLEASE try to use at least SOME BRAIN POWER before deciding to BITCH at me.

It's great you are enjoying this column. I am merely critiquing it so that it gets better.

Josiah Rowe
03-13-2003, 02:12 AM
Well, I didn't know about the '68 DC purge. Which writers were involved?

danzo
03-13-2003, 03:50 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JimHughs4:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>I am always amazed at the bitchiness of the geeks here and of course the inability for you guys to possess good reading skills.

If Moore is so determined to tread on familiar territory here, then it is also his responsibility as a columnist to make the material engaging for those who are ignorant as well as those who are not.

Truth be told I don't often read this column but almost every time I am attracted by the synopisis on the main page, I finish the article either wishing for more depth, a longer piece, or a stronger voice from the columnist.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">'Briar, this is the perfect example of how you can't please everyone. This material is not aimed at you or I, who are already familiar with the topic covered. It's done as information for those who don't know, maybe with a little cultural context. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but this isn't something we should complain about. JH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hmm, well, i'd just like to say that you both actually have good points and thanks for providing yet another example of the "this or that" mentality that so many people in our western culture are hopelessly mired in. it's part of a series; a series that, if you've been paying attention, is about the history of comics, so arguments of "repetitive" are not only invalid, but just plain silly. and on the other hand, 'briar has a point: i also am usually left wanting more from each installment. also, while i feel Stuarts' "voice" is just fine here, i'd like to "hear" a lot more of it. hmm, maybe Elayne is right, that'd explain much. regardless, it's silly to look at a thing as part of what it is rather than the whole. simply because it's a column doesn't mean it's about new "news" or dirt, simply because it's about history doesn't mean it will or should cover everything. as it is, it's pretty damn nifty having all this info in one convenient place.
now if Mr. Moore would let his "voice" sing a bit more, i'd be real happy.

danzo
03-13-2003, 04:02 AM
oh, as i've made it something of a personal theme to point out when others overstep the bounds as i see them....
um, Mr. Blackbriar, about this:
"....I am always amazed at the bitchiness of the geeks here and of course the inability for you guys to possess good reading skills...."

that should read "....the inability of you...." not "for" you.... and it should be "people", "posters", "commentators", or somesuch. "guys" is vulgar, hence wrong. the of/for thing is rather obvious, isn't it?
the point? before you choose to get unnecessarily rude, have an actual reason. also, if you feel you must be rude, do it properly: do not disparge the skills of others while showing yours to be lacking.
or you could just try being nice, it's a lot easier.

BLACKBRIAR
03-13-2003, 04:22 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by danzo:
<strong>oh, as i've made it something of a personal theme to point out when others overstep the bounds as i see them....
um, Mr. Blackbriar, about this:
"....I am always amazed at the bitchiness of the geeks here and of course the inability for you guys to possess good reading skills...."

that should read "....the inability of you...." not "for" you.... and it should be "people", "posters", "commentators", or somesuch. "guys" is vulgar, hence wrong. the of/for thing is rather obvious, isn't it?
the point? before you choose to get unnecessarily rude, have an actual reason. also, if you feel you must be rude, do it properly: do not disparge the skills of others while showing yours to be lacking.
or you could just try being nice, it's a lot easier.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*chuckle*

We should all chip in and buy this clown a life. Cuz right now it's so clear you ain't got nothin'.

Why don't you correct my grammar for me? Heh heh heh heh.

JimHughs4
03-13-2003, 09:50 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>[You are completely wrong. This column, because of the very fact that it is running here on one of the most heavily trafficked ALL COMIC BOOK messages boards, is aimed at an audience with significant knowledge of the subject matter.

Today, there are very FEW if any casual comics fans for many reasons--this is why the industry is in the state it is in. PLEASE try to use at least SOME BRAIN POWER before deciding to BITCH at me.

It's great you are enjoying this column. I am merely critiquing it so that it gets better.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Briar, sorry if you feel I'm taking you to task. I certainly don't intend to be insulting. My point is that everybody has to get their information from somewhere. In my case, I found about the '68 rebellion' from Will Jacobs book The Comic Book Heroes back around 1996. Since then, I've gotten 3 or 4 other people interested in comics. In the last two days, I've recommended this column to two of them because it's a good source for information.

You might say that this a widely read comic book site, and that people know all of this. My response is that it's a widely read comic site, recently written up as one of the top 100 sites you didn't know about, and this is where you should be able to find information like this.

You say that there are few, if any, casual comics readers out there. Articles like this may help us interest the casual reader more. I've picked up new hobbies before, and I like having little tidbits of knowledge about them.

And last- "PLEASE try to use at least SOME BRAIN POWER before deciding to BITCH at me."? Seems a little unwarranted. If you want to point out where I did bitch at you let me know and I'll try to clarify what I said. JH

JimHughs4
03-13-2003, 10:00 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by danzo:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JimHughs4:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>I am always amazed at the bitchiness of the geeks here and of course the inability for you guys to possess good reading skills.

If Moore is so determined to tread on familiar territory here, then it is also his responsibility as a columnist to make the material engaging for those who are ignorant as well as those who are not.

Truth be told I don't often read this column but almost every time I am attracted by the synopisis on the main page, I finish the article either wishing for more depth, a longer piece, or a stronger voice from the columnist.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">'Briar, this is the perfect example of how you can't please everyone. This material is not aimed at you or I, who are already familiar with the topic covered. It's done as information for those who don't know, maybe with a little cultural context. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but this isn't something we should complain about. JH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hmm, well, i'd just like to say that you both actually have good points and thanks for providing yet another example of the "this or that" mentality that so many people in our western culture are hopelessly mired in. it's part of a series; a series that, if you've been paying attention, is about the history of comics, so arguments of "repetitive" are not only invalid, but just plain silly. and on the other hand, 'briar has a point: i also am usually left wanting more from each installment. also, while i feel Stuarts' "voice" is just fine here, i'd like to "hear" a lot more of it. hmm, maybe Elayne is right, that'd explain much. regardless, it's silly to look at a thing as part of what it is rather than the whole. simply because it's a column doesn't mean it's about new "news" or dirt, simply because it's about history doesn't mean it will or should cover everything. as it is, it's pretty damn nifty having all this info in one convenient place.
now if Mr. Moore would let his "voice" sing a bit more, i'd be real happy.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">danzo, you and 'briar are both right. I, too, would like to see more info presented in these articles. On the other hand, that bibliography Stuart posts tends to kick ass, if you've got the time to track stuff down.

And 'briar, on re-reading my first post, I said "...but this isn't something we should complain about." I take that back. It's your right to complain about it if you want to. I should have said "I feel this isn't something we should complain about." Sorry if that's what you took exception to. JH

NerveTonic
03-13-2003, 01:19 PM
Great column.

I find it hard to follow the trends of comics history -- because trends are statistical, and comics includes far too few people to draw a statistical analysis. A "historical trend" might simply come from two editors playing poker, discussing a story in a b/w Canadian tabloid, and their in-joke reference to it in their own books.

The new-guard invaders at the end of the '60s comes down to five DC writers picking the wrong day to demand respect while Stan Lee pawned off some of his editor-in-chief responsibilities. In retrospect, it was a watermark day (month) and the start of a new trend in emerging writers.

Stuart does a great job of showing this.

Often a "trend" has no clear qualities or designations except a common cause that drives many people to react. What were creators reacting to?

Where did DC writers get their inspiration to make demands? Were they reacting to the emergence of organized fans? Before "fandom" became organized, readers formed loyalties to titles and characters. Marvel drove them to form loyalties to company brand. Fandom introduced creators to a cult of personality. Readers began to form loyalties to individual artists; they followed Steranko and Neil Adams from book-to-book, whereas previously they might simply have shrugged and wondered why Spidey "looked different" after Ditko moved on. Was feedback from fans, at cons and in zines, driving writers to feel they deserved more cred, and more hash?

Were comics writers reacting to creators' negotiations in other field such as journalism, screenwriting or animation?

What other more personal factors were in play?

I have read that Martin Goodman at Marvel was involved more personally in the operations at Marvel than executives seem to be at any company these days, and some ascribe nepotism, and some doubt he understood how his own Marvel Comics worked. How fiercely personal was conflict there? What was the sitch at DC/National?

Were these writers acting out some sort of ... historical, economic dialectic, or were they just sick and tired of whatever loudmouth jerk occupied the big office?

Michael
03-13-2003, 01:31 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by danzo:
<strong>i also am usually left wanting more from each installment. also, while i feel Stuarts' "voice" is just fine here, i'd like to "hear" a lot more of it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Funny, I once told a humor essayist that I know personally that I loved his column, but they were always too short - they were so good, I wanted longer columns. He took it as an interesting critique. As I've thought about it, it is a _strange_ complaint: "I love what you write, but you don't write enough of it!" LOL

I am a LONG time comic reader (28 years now at least) and didn't know a lot of the history and links that Stuart mentioned in previous columns -his formalized connection with science fiction novels, for instance. Most of this stuff (other than the writer strike) I kinda knew, but it was well crafted and connected together here.

I salute thee, Stuart! Keep up the work!

William Coate
03-13-2003, 04:06 PM
Black Briar what is amazing is your rudeness and your lack of respect for anyone!!!

What the hell is your problem?

When people have a difference in opinion all you do is insult. Instead being an ass and a jerk an explanation of your point of view will do just fine.

If a person is civil and polite he has no life? What the hell does that mean? Get over it! Get over yourself!

You’re the only one that seems to be bitching about everyone and everything and that is just plain wrong!

"I've hear this before." Wow! What a complaint!

Keep up the great work Mr. Moore. This is tremendous work no matter what any wacko says.

William Coate

Shackmania
03-13-2003, 05:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>[QUOTE]You are completely wrong. This column, because of the very fact that it is running here on one of the most heavily trafficked ALL COMIC BOOK messages boards, is aimed at an audience with significant knowledge of the subject matter.

Today, there are very FEW if any casual comics fans for many reasons--this is why the industry is in the state it is in. PLEASE try to use at least SOME BRAIN POWER before deciding to BITCH at me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just because this is "one of the most heavily trafficked ALL COMIC BOOK messages boards" does NOT mean everyone has your extensive, all encompassing knowledge of everything comic.

YOU ARE A SNOB. And an ill humored one at that, which is the worst kind. It simply is NOT necessary to go out of your way to be nasty. In particular, you are nasty to anyone who dares disagree with your view. WHY? Can't you take criticisim? Or do you do it just to be contrary 'cause yiu think it's entertaining? Or are you simply a troubled person with few real world social skills? In any event, try reponding to this note without any insulting nastiness.
Thank you.
Bruce Hirsch

William Coate
03-13-2003, 10:57 PM
What's funny and I suppose there is no way of getting around it without being nasty myself and lay it out there: Black Briar simply is an a$$ h*%#!

I am sorry for bringing it down to his/her level but sometimes people like him/her need to be talked to the way they talk to everyone else. It is all they understand.

May God save your soul if you have one.

WC

dollman
03-15-2003, 07:45 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Stuart Moore:
<strong>When I mentioned I was planning a column on McKee, I got an e-mail from an old boss of mine (outside comics) urging me to examine the situation carefully. He was right. So I'm taking my time on that one, but it is coming. Rest assured, though, it'll contain some spicy prose.

Thanks to everybody for commenting. Not every column's aimed at the longtime comics fan, but I always try to put a few things together that haven't been considered that way (i.e., artistic conditions in the '60s vs. the '80s -- and how they relate to the outside world, which is the overall theme of the column).

Best,
Stuart</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Stuart I truly enjoyed this column even though it was material I'm familar with, as it was a trip down memory lane. Hopefully you've developed thick skin and realize there will always be naysayers and critics of what you write. Part of the risks of writing, exposing yourself.

And as others have stated, you can't please all the people all of the time. I ran into a simliar problem with the local astronomy club I was involved with a few years ago. I always had a fascination with astronomy, took an introductory course at the observatory and thoroughly enjoyed it. The instructer encouraged me to join the astronomy club to further my interest, but I found the club to be not as inviting to newcomers and novices of hard science.

Explain the concept to me in everyday English and you got my attention. Explain in with obscure formulas and tech terms, I doze off. It wasn't that the club was trying to be exclusive and discourage new members, but rather they had to have topics at a higher level of discussion to keep the longtime members and diehards interested in staying. Ultimately I let my membership lapse because I didn't feel enough concessions were made to those of us who are sciencespeak challenged. And that's the choice everyone of us has with Stuart's columns.

some_bloke
03-20-2003, 12:32 PM
danzo, briar, jim ... you are all right.
It's wonderful to see so many people agreeing with each other in a public place that can be prone to the agressive at times.

A spontaneous outbreak of peace!
How pleasant!