JIC: FOOTNOTING THE COMICS [Archive]

MattBrady

03-09-2003, 09:08 AM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Other_Publishers/picfnclogo.jpg" width="300" height="98" align="right">by Michael Sangiacomo

Did you ever read something in a comic book or see something on a television show that made you wonder if the writer knew what he was talking about?

In a recent issue of Batgirl- Year One the young heroine is told she could not join the FBI because she “didn’t meet the height requirements.”

Lawyer Matt Murdock sues a New York newspaper for libel for a front page story that (quite correctly) stated that he was the masked vigilante, Daredevil.

Could that really happen?

Stephen Lee, a 29-year-old New York lawyer and former Chicago newspaper reporter, sets the record straight at his website: <a href="http://www.footnotecomics.com" target="_blank">www.footnotecomics.com</a>

Beginning today, the site will not only tell readers whether something said in a comic is true, but will include tons of educational background. His companion site, <a href="http://www.newsaic.com" target="_blank">www.newsaic.com</a> similarly dissects television shows like The West Wing, Saturday Night Live, South Park and others since last February. He also offers further explanation and facts on current events. He says his career as a reporter and later a lawyer gives him the thirst for the truth and the ability to find it.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Other_Publishers/picfncbatgirl1-1.jpg" width="250" height="263" align="left">Want to see a timeline detailing the United States’ troubles with Iraq? It’s there. Want to know more background on the United Nations? Just click.

“Being a huge fan of comics it was only a matter of time before I branched out,” said Lee. “It started when my younger brother and sister saw a Saturday Night Live sketch making fun of Al Gore’s social security ‘locked box’ plan.

“They laughed, but they didn’t understand why,” he said. “So I put together an explanation of where the joke came from and explained a lot about Gore’s theory. The website evolved from there. I would see something on West Wing and explore whether something like that
could actually happen in real life.”

Lee does exhaustive research on his projects when he is not litigating cases in New York courtrooms, which raises the question of when the guy sleeps.

For example, most of us read right over the FBI agent’s cutting remark about height to Batgirl’s alter-ego, Barbara Gordon. Lee checked it out.

“The kinds of height requirements that frustrated Barbara Gordon’s initial career plans are not simply annoying or sexist; they are probably discriminatory and illegal,” he wrote.

Lee goes on to cite chapter and verse of the 1964 Civil Rights Act; other U.S. Supreme Court cases that show precedent, and, of course, the FBI’s own rules on height requirements.

He’s right.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Other_Publishers/picfncdaredevil36-1.jpg" width="250" height="105" align="right">Remember that whole half-year storyline where Bruce Wayne is arrested for murder? Lee expands on the points of law and shows where the writers had it right and wrong.

It’s not that Lee is out to embarrass anyone; he just wants to make sure that people who are curious about certain things can get solid information. Of course everything is properly sourced and footnoted.

When Marvel put out Truth, a series about American efforts to test a super-soldier serum on unwitting black soldiers in World War II, Lee put together a history lesson on how black men were treated during the war.

“The series went way overboard, but there is truth to the assertion that some believed black soldiers were incompetent and given the most menial duties,” he said. “The series would have been stronger if it kept more to reality.”

The one thing that Lee does not do is to write down to the reader. He includes a lot of information about his topics. He figures that people can stop reading anytime they like, but for the people who want to know more, he’ll provide it.

A warning for writers who think they can play fast and loose with the facts in the “funny books,” Lee’s got his eye on you.

Michael Sangiacomo is a statewide news reporter for the Plain Dealer newspaper in Cleveland, Ohio. His syndicated "Journey Into Comics" weekly column on the state of the comic book business, can be found in newspapers and at the Newsarama website. His monthly comic book column appears the first Saturday of each month in the Plain Dealer Arts page and is syndicated through Newhouse Newspapers. He also writes a twice-monthly audiobooks review column covering crime thrillers and mysteries that can be seen at <a href="http://www.audiobookstoday.com" target="_blank">www.audiobookstoday.com</a>

AllAboutMe

03-09-2003, 10:06 AM

Not only did the Truth go overboard on its portrayal of the treatment of black soldiers, but apparently there was no real super-soldier serum! What? And now reports are flowing in that super-heroes AREN'T real? WH-AA-TT?
While this site, I'm sure is actually very interesting and good as a learning experience (please don't live your life by comic book or TV rules, it doesn't work)I always find it humorous when someone pickes up an issue of, say, Superman and comments that "that can't happen."
Dude, it's a freakin' comic book. Anything can happen. A man can fly or stick to walls or be a mean clown named Obnoxio and team up with a group of mutants for the worst possible comic ever. It's all good.

Erik K

03-09-2003, 10:31 AM

It's all too easy to say "Dude, it's a comic book and anything can happen." But most superhero comics are appealing because they take place in a world like ours with a few, fantastic differences. People fly. Bullets bounce off of heroes. But it's our world with those few differences. It's jarring to our suspension of disbelief when details not related to fantasy elements are wrong.

For instance, imagine that in Spider-Man, a character dies of tonsilitis. A doctor shakes her head and proclaims "Tonsilitis is almost always fatal." Jarring, because we know it isn't true. The change in reality doesn't have anything to do with the changes we've accepted (man has powers of a spider, sort of). It kills our suspension of disbelief.

That's an extreme example, but when you know something in a mundane detail JUST ISN"T TRUE it snaps you out of it. You know the writer was too lazy to do the research. So cheers to this site. Keep those writers on their toes. Expect a higher level of attention an care in the writing of these really expensive little pamphlets.

My 2 cents, anyway.

Todd VerBeek

03-09-2003, 11:05 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AllAboutMe:
I always find it humorous when someone pickes up an issue of, say, Superman and comments that "that can't happen."
Dude, it's a freakin' comic book. Anything can happen.<hr /></blockquote>And I find it funny when someone responds that way, because it so completely misses the point. Of course "anything can happen" (and not because it's a comic book, but because it's fiction).

The author is God, and can declare that in their fictional universe pigs can fly, sound travels in a vacuum, and maple trees are all agents of the Soviet Union (which took over Africa in the 1850's). But it doesn't mean their fictional reality is convincing, and when someone says "that can't happen", that's what they mean.

Writing fiction is all about lying effectively; that's what fiction is: presenting something that didn't actually happen as if it had. If you tell a story that involves only a few lies (e.g. a baby from Krypton came to Earth, he can fly and bend steel bars in his hands, and his girlfriend doesn't recognise him when he wears glasses) the reader can play along and "believe" it more easily than if you keep tossing in more and more things that the reader knows to be untrue. Eventually the expectation that literally "anything can happen" will cause the reader to stop believing any of it, and dismiss it as a Bad Story.

jawaplumber

03-09-2003, 11:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AllAboutMe:
Not only did the Truth go overboard on its portrayal of the treatment of black soldiers, but apparently there was no real super-soldier serum! What? And now reports are flowing in that super-heroes AREN'T real? WH-AA-TT?
While this site, I'm sure is actually very interesting and good as a learning experience (please don't live your life by comic book or TV rules, it doesn't work)I always find it humorous when someone pickes up an issue of, say, Superman and comments that "that can't happen."
Dude, it's a freakin' comic book. Anything can happen. A man can fly or stick to walls or be a mean clown named Obnoxio and team up with a group of mutants for the worst possible comic ever. It's all good.<hr /></blockquote>I completely agree with everything you said. I'm sure something like this can serve to be informative and I can appreciate someone working hard to achieve a certain goal. However, I personally find it to be very unappealling. I could care less about whether or not Barbara Gordon could really be kept out of the FBI because of her height. It was something that worked for the story it happened in, and was believable enough. Now, if it had been something ridiculous and extreme like Barbara Gordon was kept out of the FBI because her pinky nail is longer than her ring fingernail, I would have scoffed at it and not been as happy with the story. But would I need a website to tell me this? I kinda don't think so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I always get a kick out of the morons who question stuff like Superman flying or Spider-Man swinging by his webs, both in movies and television. Again, not trying to be paranoid or defensive, but I think a site like this Footnote Comics supports more of that attitude. I don't think it'll necessarily turn anyone into a non-believer, because the people who already have a hard time believing in super-heroes probably wouldn't even know or care the site existed. But it does give their "argument" weight, and more importantly it can take some of the fun out of super-hero stories. I truly hope that few comic book writers pay attention to Footnote Comics. I'd rather they do what they feel works in their stories, whether it's based in reality or not. I've personally known creators in the industry throughout the years, and the majority of them already know when it's appropriate or not to check on facts for a story. They can also be a neurotic bunch, however (sorry, guys LOL), and with something like this site, they might be on their guard more and end up worrying too much about being "realistic" than just telling an entertaining story. It would take away so much of the magic of comic books, both in the way they are created and in their finished product. That loss of magic is part of why the original incarnation of Jim Shooter's Valiant Comics, IMHO, slowly lost it's luster. Sure, it was cute for a little while to have explanations of how all the science worked, but eventually that base in realism kept the characters from evolving like they could have (just like any type of continuity can restrict a character if it isn't bent sometimes). I would hate to see this happen across the board in the comic book industry. I doubt that it will, as Footnote is just one little website with it's own good intentions, but I just hope it isn't misused.

Sorry for the ranting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Todd VerBeek

03-09-2003, 12:49 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
I could care less about whether or not Barbara Gordon could really be kept out of the FBI because of her height.<hr /></blockquote>Then you're not the kind of person this site was created for. It's for the intellectually curious, people who want to find out whether the "facts" presented in comics and TV are true or not.

Rand

03-09-2003, 01:04 PM

Huh. Just realised that I forgot to pick up my copy of Batgirl: Year One #3. Hm. Thanks for the reminder!

Back on topic. I wonder how often this site will be updated? Right now, it seems to focus on the main icons of the industry (Batman, Superman, X-Men). Will there be a way in which we can submit issues... salient points... even research?

I like the concept. It's like those books that... I forget what their names are... put out. Where they discuss the science behind the Superheroes and Supervillains? This would be a similar thing, more regularly updated, and best of all... free. What's there to complain about? If you don't like it, you won't check the site. For those who do like it... they'll just want to know (like me) how often it'll be updated, so they know to put it on their bookmarks to check every day, week, month, whatever.

I'm hoping to see a CrossGen title there sometime. Starting with Ruse!

jawaplumber

03-09-2003, 02:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
I could care less about whether or not Barbara Gordon could really be kept out of the FBI because of her height.<hr /></blockquote>Then you're not the kind of person this site was created for. It's for the intellectually curious, people who want to find out whether the "facts" presented in comics and TV are true or not.<hr /></blockquote>No kidding, pal. I wasn't directly criticizing the site or the person creating it. I was just offering up my opinion, in reply to another's opinion posted before mine, and stating my concerns regarding the potential effect something like Footnote could have on comic books and their creators. If you would have read the rest of my post, you'd have seen that I did have positive things to say about it.

Hdefined

03-09-2003, 02:05 PM

Does this guy get paid for all this research? If not, he should!

I strongly support a site like this. It's the worst feeling to tell someone something you think is true, then you learn it isn't, and you say "er, um, the comic book said it's how things are."

This site will keep everyone a little less ignorant. Thanks Stephen Lee!

mike sangiacomo

03-09-2003, 02:30 PM

"I strongly support a site like this. It's the worst feeling to tell someone something you think is true, then you learn it isn't, and you say "er, um, the comic book said it's how things are."

This site will keep everyone a little less ignorant. Thanks Stephen Lee![/QB][/QUOTE]"
MIKE SANGIACOMO HERE
I think the point has already been well-argued that comics should be realistic within certain parameters, the tonsilitis example being perfect.
Many of you are missing the second important fuction that the footnotes site serves: TO EDUCATE.
If you read TRUTH and want to know more about the role of black men in WWII, Stephen Lee explain it.
If you're fascinated by Daredevil's legal
battles and want to know more about libel law, he can tell you.
The site goes way beyond simple naysaying and nitpicking, but into the realm of education. So the next time we blurt out a factoid we got from a comic, we may be able to check Lee's site and use his references to back it up.
Before anyone cuts on the site, I do have a thought: check it out for yourself first. You might enjoy it, or even learn something.
AS FAR AS how often it will be updated, Lee said it would be updated as often as possible, which means weekly or better.

jawaplumber

03-09-2003, 03:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
 I think the point has already been well-argued that comics should be realistic within certain parameters, the tonsilitis example being perfect.
Many of you are missing the second important fuction that the footnotes site serves: TO EDUCATE.
The site goes way beyond simple naysaying and nitpicking, but into the realm of education.<hr /></blockquote>No confusion here as to it's purpose. Again, my criticism wasn't directed at the site itself, just it's misuse and misinterpretation of it's purpose by others, including creators AND readers. I wish Mr. Lee the best of luck with this endeavor :)

Shackmania

03-09-2003, 03:43 PM

Frankly, I think the debate over truth or fiction in a comic is silly. When I know "facts" are wrong it sticks out like a sore thumb, but it doesn't ruin my appreciation of a story. (Poor writting and poor art do that - an inacurate fact is not in itself poor writting. It's poor technique, but not poor writting)The real question should be "is the site any good?" I went to it. It is. It's fun, imaginative, intersting and educational. It goes places you might not expect. As an example, it made a comparison in the "Our World at War" DCU story line between what Luthor knew before the attack and the historical debate over whether FDR knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor before that attack. Even though I knew of the debate, I didn't make the connection when I read the story. I found the connection and the information on the web site informative. It certainly was not "correcting" the OWAW writers and I can't see any reason why such a site would inhibit writers. Go to the site. Enjoy it for what it is (or don't enjoy it if that's your bent)but for heaven's sake let's not discuss it's merits without first perusing the site and seeing what it's really about.

Shackmania

aphterburn

03-09-2003, 05:09 PM

I can understand their being a problem with pointing out certain rules that are false, like the FBI height requirement, but historical facts mean nothing in a world that isn't real. Most of the time, even facts can easily be explained away...such as the man at the FBI simply trying to discourage Barbara from joining. Simple.

AllAboutMe

03-09-2003, 05:45 PM

No, comics do not necessarily take place in the "real world" (neither does that crappy MTV show by the same misnomer). First, there is no Metropolis, no Gotham City and there never was a planet Krypton. Some stories take place in the "real world" such as NY but it is not the "real" NY, otherwise NY would be a constant battlezone with millions dying from falling rubble and enery blasts.
I am not badmouthing this site. I actually find the concept interesting. I am saying, that if you go out of your way too much to question everything that happens in a comic book, maybe you're looking at the wrong genre.
So, Dude, it IS just a comic book and if you sit around complaining that the "real life" situations aren't realistic enough while an army of talking gorillas attack Keystone City because they are under the influence of another-dimensional imp whose is so ridiculous he is constantly tricked into saying his own name backwards to send him back to said dimension, then it's time to set the book down and take a deep breath.
In.
Out.
I love comics because they AREN"T the real world. We live in the real world (most of us). Comics should be an escape.
What was the topic again?

Stephen Lee

03-09-2003, 06:11 PM

Hi everyone, and thanks first of all to Mike for the great article and then to everyone else for their feedback. This may be somewhat redundant by now, but my goal with the site is simply to report on the real-life issues that obviously inspire a lot of comic-book storylines today. Writers are doing a lot of research in order to write comics like Daredevil and Truth and Y : The Last Man, so why not make it easier for all of us to see what they were thinking about? Why not talk about those topics? I'm doing this because I love what they're doing, not because I want to take anyone down, and knowing this stuff usually makes me enjoy these comics even more. Footnote Comics isn't for everyone, but it's the kind of site I wanted to visit, and I thought others might too.

As for how often I'm going to update the site, that will depend somewhat on how often comics actually deal with real-life issues. I update the <a href="http://www.newsaic.com/ftvindex.html" target="_blank">FootnoteTV</a> part of the site very frequently, but that's because The West Wing and Saturday Night Live use real-life issues every episode; most comics don't (and yes, I do like it that way). I will update Footnote Comics weekly for the next month or so with some pieces I've already started developing, and then I'll just update the site as things get published (so please e-mail me with suggestions, since I can't keep up with everything out there).

Cray_ws

03-09-2003, 06:12 PM

First thing I wanna say is I'm getting real tired of impulsive criticism and the lack of respect poster's show.

This site is something different and doesn't have any other motivation other than to be EDUCATIONAL not critical.

When I was in my comic shop and browsed Batgirl: Year One, I actually put the book down simply because I knew FBI height requirement was bogus and thought it was a sign of a poorly written comic. It was not even remotely plausable. I'm sure The rest of the story was great but that little panel ruined it for me and I just decided not to pick up the series.

I'm not critical about realism I just like it to be remotely plausable. I think the "Tonsilitis" explaination is perfect. I also agree with Todd VerBeek that fiction is all about lying effectively.

One last thing, thanks Mike for bringing this site to my attention.

Todd VerBeek

03-09-2003, 08:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aphterburn:
I can understand their being a problem with pointing out certain rules that are false, like the FBI height requirement, but historical facts mean nothing in a world that isn't real.<hr /></blockquote>That's certainly true of worlds like Naboo, Middle Earth, and Demetria, but it's not so cut and dried with a world like the Marvel or DC Universes, which are generally presented as if they were just like the real world, but with super-heroes. That's one of the keys to their widespread appeal, and one of the things that makes them different from more fantastic stories (like Star Wars' or Tolkein's or CrossGen's). The histories that DC & Marvel superhero stories refer to certainly don't have to be true (Truth is - ironically - not a true story), but to be effective and keep their fans, they should try to avoid being outright false.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Most of the time, even facts can easily be explained away...such as the man at the FBI simply trying to discourage Barbara from joining. Simple.<hr /></blockquote>Sure, there's a whole realm of fan entertainment (and probably a name for the practise) in explaining away logical, factual, consistency, and other "problems" in popular fiction, especially continuity-heavy and science-fiction-type stories (two factors superhero comics have in spades). I've whiled away many an enjoyable hour figuring out how to rationalise Star Trek's warp drive according to actual known physics, or whether the Flash can run fast enough to slingshot into orbit. It can be fun. (FootnoteComics.com looks like a good resource for that sort of exercise, as related to legal and historical matters.) And heaven knows that you can't expect fiction to be 100% realistic.

But the opposite extreme is absurd as well: the writer can't just pull "facts" out of thin air and assume the audience will buy it because "it's a comicbook, dude". Maybe some of them will accept it and that's fine, but that doesn't mean those who don't are taking it too seriously or too picky.

What's plausible and what completely wrecks a story will vary from one reader to the next. My father (a lawyer) can't sit through a TV courtroom drama without groaning at how impossible they all are; I enjoy some of them, blissfully ignorant of most courtroom procedure. Any movie in which someone sits down at a computer and "hacks" into a system by typing a lot of stuff really fast makes me want my money back because it's so obviously impossible, but Dad wonders what my problem is.

Bob_W

03-09-2003, 08:39 PM

The book mentioned dealing with the science and lack of science in comics is THE SCIENCE OF SUPERHEROES, written by me (Robert Weinberg) and Lois H. Gresh. We are hard at work on our second book in the same vein, THE SCIENCE OF SUPERVILLAINS. The point we try to make is that comics do not have to be believable, but that they should at least be internally consistant, and that just because you ask a reader to suspend belief on one or two facts (to make your superhero plausible), that writers shouldn't feel free to just ignore all science that exists.

For example, believing Superman can fly wouldn't be so bad if every time he lifted up a building, all the bricks didn't hold together (instead of the building falling apart into separate bricks and girders). If a building can hold together for Superman lifting it, why does it crash to pieces when a villain uses dynamite to blow it up. Same situation, same science, but the writer choses only to use real science when it fits his purpose.

I think a few comic book writers realize the problem and try to do something about it. Most comic writers seem to know nearly nothing about science and could care less. Which is why most comics are considered stuff for kids.

bob w.

Todd VerBeek

03-09-2003, 09:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shackmania:
When I know "facts" are wrong it sticks out like a sore thumb, but it doesn't ruin my appreciation of a story. (Poor writting and poor art do that - an inacurate fact is not in itself poor writting. It's poor technique, but not poor writting)<hr /></blockquote>This will probably degenerate into a debate over semantics (and probably already has :) ) but I think good technique - in this case getting things adequately accurate - is an element of good writing.

I'm working on a story about the Greek Olympians and their supporting cast, and to write it well I'm going to need to make sure that I know who's who, who's whose lover, who begat whom by whom, etc. I might have a very dramatic and compelling story to tell (I think so), and I might plot and dialog and illustrate it well (I hope so), but if I'm lose a signficant segment of my audience with "factual" mistakes such as calling Zeus' daughter "Minerva" or having her call Zeus's wife "mother", that's a shortcoming of my writing, not just a technical glitch.

In the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" the narrator offers the notion that Quality is what happens when someone cares about what they're doing. By that definition, quality writing requires that the author cares enough about the story to get the "facts" as correct (or plausible) as possible. As long as he doesn't let that interfere with the other important elements of they story (in which case he isn't caring enough about the plot or the exposition or whatever), it can only make for a better story.

Granted, maybe the story doesn't need to be that correct, but the same can be said of improving other aspects of the writing: spending too much time rewriting the dialog, or tweaking the plot, etc.

Rand

03-09-2003, 11:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stephen Lee:
Hi everyone, and thanks first of all to Mike for the great article and then to everyone else for their feedback. <hr /></blockquote>Howdy!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stephen Lee:
This may be somewhat redundant by now, but my goal with the site is simply to report on the real-life issues that obviously inspire a lot of comic-book storylines today. Writers are doing a lot of research in order to write comics like Daredevil and Truth and Y : The Last Man, so why not make it easier for all of us to see what they were thinking about? Why not talk about those topics? I'm doing this because I love what they're doing, not because I want to take anyone down, and knowing this stuff usually makes me enjoy these comics even more. Footnote Comics isn't for everyone, but it's the kind of site I wanted to visit, and I thought others might too.<hr /></blockquote>You said 'real-life' issues here. Modern-day, or will you cover history as well? The reason I ask is because I'm a (big) fan of Ruse, and there was an interesting debate about Mark Waid's use of maggots to push a storyline. Why... we argued for weeks on that topic alone, and scoured the 'Net for any and all information on maggots.

Will you be doing comics that aren't set in the modern day? In other words... will you cover fantasy, science-fiction, etc? I hope so!

One of the things I was thinking about while reading through your site, and through the responses here, was that... when Arthur Conan Doyle wrote Sherlock Holmes, he didn't do it from a policeman/detective prospective. He just wrote. In fact, he -founded- modern sleuthing (if I remember it right). A site like this would identify such a pioneer (hopefully)!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stephen Lee:
As for how often I'm going to update the site, that will depend somewhat on how often comics actually deal with real-life issues. I update the <a href="http://www.newsaic.com/ftvindex.html" target="_blank">FootnoteTV</a> part of the site very frequently, but that's because The West Wing and Saturday Night Live use real-life issues every episode; most comics don't (and yes, I do like it that way). I will update Footnote Comics weekly for the next month or so with some pieces I've already started developing, and then I'll just update the site as things get published (so please e-mail me with suggestions, since I can't keep up with everything out there).<hr /></blockquote>Are you starting from -now-? i.e. a cut-off date from 2002 or 2003? Will you cover issues that occurred before?

Thanks, and look forward to seeing all the articles on your site!

AllAboutMe

03-09-2003, 11:34 PM

If that ONE panel from Batgirl made you not buy the book, then you aren't reading for the right reasons.
You are going to not buy a book based on one panel? That is ludicrous. Especially for a panel such as that. Sure, it was a goofball mistake, but c'mon. Besides, what are ya doin' reading the book in the store, it ain't no lie-berry!

Shackmania

03-09-2003, 11:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shackmania:
When I know "facts" are wrong it sticks out like a sore thumb, but it doesn't ruin my appreciation of a story. (Poor writting and poor art do that - an inacurate fact is not in itself poor writting. It's poor technique, but not poor writting)<hr /></blockquote>This will probably degenerate into a debate over semantics (and probably already has :) ) but I think good technique - in this case getting things adequately accurate - is an element of good writing.

I'm working on a story about the Greek Olympians and their supporting cast, and to write it well I'm going to need to make sure that I know who's who, who's whose lover, who begat whom by whom, etc. I might have a very dramatic and compelling story to tell (I think so), and I might plot and dialog and illustrate it well (I hope so), but if I'm lose a signficant segment of my audience with "factual" mistakes such as calling Zeus' daughter "Minerva" or having her call Zeus's wife "mother", that's a shortcoming of my writing, not just a technical glitch.

In the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" the narrator offers the notion that Quality is what happens when someone cares about what they're doing. By that definition, quality writing requires that the author cares enough about the story to get the "facts" as correct (or plausible) as possible. As long as he doesn't let that interfere with the other important elements of they story (in which case he isn't caring enough about the plot or the exposition or whatever), it can only make for a better story.

Granted, maybe the story doesn't need to be that correct, but the same can be said of improving other aspects of the writing: spending too much time rewriting the dialog, or tweaking the plot, etc.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, we are playing with semantics and as long as that is recognized - ok. My point was not whether accuracy was good or bad, my point was and still is that most of the debate is going on about a site that most of the deabters have not bothered to vist and evaluate BEFORE offering their valued opinion. And Todd, by continuing the discussion on the accuracy of facts and not the site, you too are ignoring my point. As I'm not a professional writer like you it's entirely possible that I did not make my point well, so here it is as simply as I can put it.
STOP THE IDIOTIC DEBATING - GO TO THE SITE AND EVALUATE IT ON IT'S OWN MERITS!!!
:rolleyes: Sometimes it's so hard to be a grumpy old man! :rolleyes:
Shackmania

Cloak & Dagger

03-10-2003, 12:04 AM

Reading what was on the site about the Murdock vs. The Daily Globe, it brings out plot ideas that I hadn't considered before. Yeah, Murdock is trying to cover up the truth for good reasons (mainly, he's a hero and fights to save lives), but it's almost like a murderer lying by saying her or she never murdered anyone. How far does the lie take this person?

Pretty good website, if you ask me. Makes you think.

gwangung

03-10-2003, 12:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If that ONE panel from Batgirl made you not buy the book, then you aren't reading for the right reasons.
You are going to not buy a book based on one panel? That is ludicrous. Especially for a panel such as that. <hr /></blockquote>Especially for a panel for something that's EASILY researched. I mean, how hard could it be to look that stuff up?

If that doesn't bother you, then perhaps what you're reading shouldn't be the things that I'm reading. I don't hold truck with lazy writers, paarticularly not if it has to do with the core motivations of your protagonists. I consider comics an art form, not disposable pap; that means the writer has to put a little more work into it.

Hdefined

03-10-2003, 01:41 AM

Thanks Stephen and Robert W for posting.

I just want to add, Marvel has prided themselves on adhering to real life settings, real life personalities, and real life issues as best as possible. They are clearly STATING that the world their characters live in is the same one we do. I think, more than any other line of comics, the facts need to stand up in Marvel books. The heroes don't live in their own world of laws and science, they live in ours. So it's best, if we're to accept what they're showing us, that all the facts line up.

Hdefined

03-10-2003, 01:42 AM

Just want to add, based on what I said about Marvel using real life personalities, that the only big problem I had with Priest's Black Panther was how intelligent he portrayed Bush in Enemy of the State II. Come on Priest, Bush doesn't even KNOW half those words! :D

03-10-2003, 05:12 AM

...You know, I don't know why all the bitching's going on about this site. Bob Ingersol's been doing this sort of logic flaw dissection from a legal standpoint for years over in CBG, and nobody's denounced him for it.

...Most of those bitching are just bitching to be bitching, and that's the bitching truth about it. Bob W, more power to your site, pal, and if these pedantic misanthropes give you any more shit, just run a page on them explaining how they can suspend their own disbelief and easily stick their heads back up their asses!

William Coate

03-10-2003, 06:25 AM

Thanks OM. I think you summed it up very nicely.
Fiction still has a certain sense to it even when it is fiction. Comics like any fiction needs to adhere to some understanding of this otherwise there would be no point in reading it.

William Coate

aphterburn

03-10-2003, 09:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gwangung:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> If that ONE panel from Batgirl made you not buy the book, then you aren't reading for the right reasons.
You are going to not buy a book based on one panel? That is ludicrous. Especially for a panel such as that. <hr /></blockquote>Especially for a panel for something that's EASILY researched. I mean, how hard could it be to look that stuff up?

If that doesn't bother you, then perhaps what you're reading shouldn't be the things that I'm reading. I don't hold truck with lazy writers, paarticularly not if it has to do with the core motivations of your protagonists. I consider comics an art form, not disposable pap; that means the writer has to put a little more work into it.<hr /></blockquote>That's total BS. I don't give any criticism credibility if you didn't know the fact YOURSELF first. If you read a book like Batgirl for instance, enjoy it, then later on find out that a particular fact is incorrect and immediately start a sorry ass tirade on the writer then you don't hold any water with me. Don't try to paint yourself out to be a sophisticate that you are not.

William Coate

03-10-2003, 02:07 PM

I think the point is aphterburn is the fact in question is a bit obviously incorrect so you know it right away making it a disappointing aspect of the overall story which ultimately is no longer entertaining if the story is that ludicrous in the first place.

Let’s be realistic and understand that for me like others a story that doesn’t make certain sense is that it is no longer something we will enjoy which is the overall point that we are trying to make.

It is not about being sophisticated just simply that we are taken out of a story that has no consistency which I think is very important to a story.
Without it what would make sense???

William Coate

Jim

03-10-2003, 03:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AllAboutMe:
[...]and there never was a planet Krypton.<hr /></blockquote>There wasn't? Can you prove that?

I've been doing much this same sort of footnoting for several years on the current Legion continuity, at the link below. Looking at what makes sense, what doesn't, and how what doesn't might make sense anyway.

(And that Batgirl thing: my immediate take, just from the two panels, would be that he's making something up to get rid of her. That his claim on the height issue is later proven to be false would merely confirm my initial thought; it would add a layer of subtle depth to the work rather than making me scream that the writer is an idiot. But maybe that's just me and too many years of being willing to explain away such things.)

KidQuantum

03-10-2003, 04:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Erik K:
...For instance, imagine that in Spider-Man, a character dies of tonsilitis. A doctor shakes her head and proclaims "Tonsilitis is almost always fatal." Jarring, because we know it isn't true. The change in reality doesn't have anything to do with the changes we've accepted (man has powers of a spider, sort of). It kills our suspension of disbelief...<hr /></blockquote>*sob* My whole family was wiped out in the Great Tonsilitis Epidemic of 1982...

Johnny Bacardi

03-10-2003, 04:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
[QUOTE] I could care less about whether or not Barbara Gordon could really be kept out of the FBI because of her height<hr /></blockquote>No, you couldn't care less. This is a common mistake a lot of people make. By saying that you could care less, you're implying that there's still room for you to care less about the subject matter at hand, and that renders your whole statement pointless or at least blunts the message.

Sorry, just trying to stay in the spirit of the topic. :D

aphterburn

03-10-2003, 04:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by William Coate:
I think the point is aphterburn is the fact in question is a bit obviously incorrect so you know it right away making it a disappointing aspect of the overall story which ultimately is no longer entertaining if the story is that ludicrous in the first place.

Let’s be realistic and understand that for me like others a story that doesn’t make certain sense is that it is no longer something we will enjoy which is the overall point that we are trying to make.

It is not about being sophisticated just simply that we are taken out of a story that has no consistency which I think is very important to a story.
Without it what would make sense???

William Coate<hr /></blockquote>If the mistake was so obviously incorrect, then who is the boob....the writer or the reader who enjoyed the story before he knew the mistake? This is all I'm asking.

William Coate

03-10-2003, 05:35 PM

That is an interesting question that I don't know if it could be answered. I'll agree you have a certain point in the question. Hopefully writers will take it to heart in at least trying to have a consistent story that way the readers won't feel like boobs as you say. But hey if you enjoy what you read all the power to you. I suppose I expect more from what I read which makes me feel disappointed in a lot of books I used to read.

Let the debate continue!

WC

rdcoyner

03-10-2003, 06:13 PM

Obviously it comes down to your ability to sustain disbelief, but yeah, I really enjoy knowing the details like this. Maybe more so when you talk about a crime comic than say Superman or The X-Men, but half of what makes Batman or Daredevil fun is that they are these eccentrics working in a gritty and realistic world. Half of what they do hinges on law, and it makes it that much more fulfilling when they are constrained by the law. Think about how much smarter and creative a character, and the character's writer, has to be when he or she has to deal with technicalities. Obviously it doesn't always work that way - it would get real boring if Gotham Central was run ultrarealistically like HBO's The Wire (which I really like in it's medium, but couldn't get into as a comic), but, for me, realism can add another layer of enjoyment.

rdcoyner

03-10-2003, 06:27 PM

I meant sustain belief / suspension of disbelief btw (whoops)

jawaplumber

03-10-2003, 06:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Johnny Bacardi:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
[QUOTE] I could care less about whether or not Barbara Gordon could really be kept out of the FBI because of her height<hr /></blockquote>No, you couldn't care less. This is a common mistake a lot of people make. By saying that you could care less, you're implying that there's still room for you to care less about the subject matter at hand, and that renders your whole statement pointless or at least blunts the message.

Sorry, just trying to stay in the spirit of the topic. :D <hr /></blockquote>Man, I really needed a good laugh today, thanks! :)

Todd VerBeek

03-10-2003, 07:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aphterburn:
If the mistake was so obviously incorrect, then who is the boob....the writer or the reader who enjoyed the story before he knew the mistake? This is all I'm asking.<hr /></blockquote>How about the boob who keeps misreading what the guy said? He noticed the mistake when he was reading the book, not afterward. Though I suppose if one's reading comprehension is poor enough, it really doesn't matter whether the facts stated in dialog balloons are correct or not, eh?

Todd VerBeek

03-10-2003, 07:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shackmania:
...As I'm not a professional writer like you...<hr /></blockquote>Just for the record, I'm not a professional writer. I've made a few bucks here and there from writing of various kinds, but I'm a (currently unemployed) web developer and computer analyst by trade. Like a lot of people in "the comics industry", the creative stuff I do is an avocation, not a vocation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sometimes it's so hard to be a grumpy old man!<hr /></blockquote>I find it comes rather easily. :)

danzo

03-10-2003, 10:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Johnny Bacardi:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
[QUOTE] I could care less about whether or not Barbara Gordon could really be kept out of the FBI because of her height<hr /></blockquote>No, you couldn't care less. This is a common mistake a lot of people make. By saying that you could care less, you're implying that there's still room for you to care less about the subject matter at hand, and that renders your whole statement pointless or at least blunts the message.

Sorry, just trying to stay in the spirit of the topic. :D <hr /></blockquote>thank-you, thank-you, thank-you! this little nit always drives me nuts, i see it often in posts, and it's especially glaring here where it's showing up in the middle of missives that are essentially about semantics and the mechanics of writing. first rule of writing, folks: pay attention!

aphterburn

03-11-2003, 09:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aphterburn:
If the mistake was so obviously incorrect, then who is the boob....the writer or the reader who enjoyed the story before he knew the mistake? This is all I'm asking.<hr /></blockquote>How about the boob who keeps misreading what the guy said? He noticed the mistake when he was reading the book, not afterward. Though I suppose if one's reading comprehension is poor enough, it really doesn't matter whether the facts stated in dialog balloons are correct or not, eh?<hr /></blockquote>Ooh, subtle flaming. Yep, my reading comprehension is low. I replied to a couple of different people so you're gonna have to clear up who you're referring to. Better yet, don't.

Johnny Bacardi

03-11-2003, 10:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Johnny Bacardi:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jawaplumber:
[QUOTE] I could care less about whether or not Barbara Gordon could really be kept out of the FBI because of her height<hr /></blockquote>No, you couldn't care less. This is a common mistake a lot of people make. By saying that you could care less, you're implying that there's still room for you to care less about the subject matter at hand, and that renders your whole statement pointless or at least blunts the message.

Sorry, just trying to stay in the spirit of the topic. :D <hr /></blockquote>Man, I really needed a good laugh today, thanks! :) <hr /></blockquote>No, thank
you for not taking offense, because I didn't mean any.

little kon-el

03-12-2003, 01:40 AM

superhero comics are created out of a real, cultural world.

the titles that have stayed the longest (like DC and Marvel's) have remained because they are a type of social fiction where our society is seen through the lens of the fantastic...moreso than science fiction because it is happening at this moment in a world that we know.

sure, there might be differences. but comics that have last for a long time have done so because they can adapt to situations and events that happen in the real world and comment on them using fantastic characters with super powers and abilities. when oliver north was caught selling arms to the contras, in the dc universe hank hall was doing the same thing and an adventure (doom patrol/suicide squad) came out of it. when we went into iraq the first time, trish tilby made comments in the x-men about having to go to iraq and why superheroes were banned from armed conflict overseas. when the world trade center fell, spiderman helped with the relief effort.

superheroes only work within the convention of "real-world" situations. the degree to which a character may take control of their world situation may be different (like in rising stars or in watchmen). but dc and marvel pride themselves on creating urban heroic epics about heroes who don on tights and fight urban crime. sure there are variants on the theme (like the original superboy or the authority), but these variants don't last as long as the comics that stick near or around the current events and real life situations.

i applaud sites like these because it does show that comic books exist in a realm of social fiction and are relevant to this time and place. watchmen wouldn't have been so powerful if it had come out in the 1970s or the 2000s because it is very time specific and place specific. the themes and places in that comic book reflect the urban fears and nightmares of the 1980s so well that the time period could only be from the 80s.

websites like the one above remind us that our comics do take place within the hear and now and are judged by how well they reflect the world around us. by reaching into pure fantasy and creating it's own society, superhero comics lose the reflection of the common man and become just fantasy.

little kon-el