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MattBrady
12-17-2002, 07:08 AM
<center><a href="http://www.newsarama.com/Thousand_Flowers_index.htm"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/flowers_banner.jpg" width="475" height="75" border="0"></a></center>

<center>A THOUSAND FLOWERS</center>
<center>Comics, Pop Culture, and the World Outside</center>
<center>Installment 7</center>
<center>by Stuart Moore</center>

7. Comics’ Drunken Uncle: Science Fiction
Part Four: Missions from God

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/Analog_1971_04.jpg" width="175" height="250" align="right">Any child of the ‘70s or ‘80s can hear Dan Ackroyd’s voice from the Blues Brothers movie: “We’re on a mission from God.” Whenever his and John Belushi’s sincerity or resolve is questioned, Ackroyd’s character, Elwood Blues, repeats this litany.

Science fiction and comics people -- both professionals and fans -- have their holy missions, too. And sometimes they get a little touchy about them.

Science fiction people -- those involved in the community, as fans and/or pros -- have always prided themselves on their superiority to the public at large. Early sf fans immediately identified with the persecuted, mentally advanced mutants of A. E. Van Vogt’s first novel, Slan, as described by James Gunn in Alternate Worlds: “fans in Battle Creek, Michigan, conceived a cooperative housing development for fans to be called Slan Center, and a group of them actually moved into an eight-room house called the Slan Shack.”

These and other sf groups, like the Futurians, viewed science fiction as more than light entertainment -- certainly as more than the pulp-derived juvenalia the literary world labelled it. To them, it was a calling. If they didn’t look to the future -- if they weren’t going to improve the world -- who was?

Barry N. Malzberg, in The Engines Of The Night, describes an awkward meeting with legendary sf editor John W. Campbell (see <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000011" target="_blank"> Installment 5 </a>), late in Campbell’s life. Awed by Campbell’s achievements yet frustrated by the insular publication that Analog had become, Malzberg tried to argue for the importance of outside influences and modern literary techniques in sf. The editor’s reply: “‘Mainstream literature is about failure,’ Campbell said, ‘a literature of defeat. Science fiction is challenge and discovery. We’re going to land on the moon in a month and it was science fiction which made all of that possible.’”

The reality, of course, sometimes differed. British literary novelist Kingsley Amis wrote a pivotal critical analysis of sf, New Maps of Hell in 1960. In it, he quotes (anonymously) several “leading writers” on their opinions of their readership:

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/amisnmohpb.jpg" width="175" height="288" align="left">“Science-fiction readers are ‘the curious who are looking for stimulation or sensation’; ‘people with technical training who want fictionalised shop-talk and teenagers who find glamour and excitement in science’; ‘ten per cent mental juveniles who still like fairy stories, ninety per cent chronic nosey-parkers who like having their imaginations stimulated’; ‘misfits in society, often subversive misfits’; ‘idealistic, forward-looking, well-read, interested in the arts.’”

In these various pictures of sf fans, we begin to see their dark secret: Yes, on the whole they’re forward-thinking, often quite intelligent, concerned about the future. But they’re often also social outcasts, for whom it’s very important to believe that they’re more intelligent than everyone else around them.

A lot of them also just plain like rocketships, ray-guns, and time travel. There’s nothing wrong with that -- but there’s no necessary correlation to a person’s intelligence, either. Plenty of smart people would rather read Thomas Pynchon or David Foster Wallace instead.

In his excellent recent book The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of: How Science Fiction Conquered The World, Thomas M. Disch explores this disconnect in more detail. He describes a 1964 stayover with a minor sf husband-and-wife writing team of the time, Walt and Leigh Richmond:

“Their method of collaboration was uniquely science fictional. Walt, a laconic, Burl-Ivesish fellow, would sit with a quiet smile on his lips and telepathically project his inputs to Leigh, who would translate them into their prose at the typewriter.”

Disch neatly encapsulates the sf-centric view of the world as he continues:

“The first tenet of fandom is that sf is the true and only literature…The second tenet of fannish faith is that fans are a breed apart, elevated above the uncircumcised by a mysterious, inherent difference…Yet there will be those, like (I imagine) Walt Richmond, whose capabilities don’t gibe with their aspirations, whose chess game isn’t top-notch and whose grades, even with effort, are C’s and B’s. How is one to reconcile, in such cases, the discrepancy between a grandiose self-image and the steady encroachments of mundane reality?”

Disch suggests that, for extreme cases -- and the Richmonds certainly qualify -- the answer is crackpot religion. (Exhibit A: L. Ron Hubbard and Dianetics/Scientology.) But there’s a less severe, more common reaction: You can dig in and declare yourself superior to other geeks.

We discussed one such schism within sf in <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000011" target="_blank"> Installment 5</a> -- the need for “serious” sf fans to disavow works that they saw as shamefully trashy or lowbrow. There have been other ideological feuds in sf as well. The ‘70s saw a debate about whether fantasy, which came into its own as a book publishing category around 1978, was “polluting the bodily fluids” of science fiction with its childish subject matter and lack of logical rigor. This came up against the rocket-ship problem: a lot of sf fans just like dragons and elves, even if there’s no logical basis for their existence. (The dragons’ and elves’ existence, that is. Not the fans’.)

And, of course, there’s always comics.

This is one of those statements that screams out for qualifiers, but here goes: Up until the advent of the direct market, around 1980, comic books were designed and produced mostly for children. Yes, there were exceptions: The Spirit in the ‘40s (packaged for newspaper insertion), EC in the ‘50s, the undergrounds of the ‘60s, and scattered critically-acclaimed-but-low-selling anomalies in the ‘70s. But throughout that time, comic book writers, artists, and editors generally knew who their audience was: teenagers and younger children.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/acmenovli15.jpg" width="300" height="284" align="right">Now consider Disch’s description of sf fans’ self-image as a “breed apart.” They already felt defensive about their field, which they felt was itself unfairly cast as children’s literature; the last thing they’d want to be associated with was (Golden and Silver Age) comics. The science was preposterous, and the pictures clearly branded comics as kids’ stuff. Hell, by the ‘60s, sf fans had spent decades trying to disown E. E. “Doc” Smith -- his lurid prose, his flat characters, his ridiculous science -- and here was a medium that shamelessly raided him for one of its “modern” icons! (See <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000014" target="_blank"> Installment 6</a>.)

If sf fans are passionate advocates of their chosen literature, comic fans are at least as fervent. But the religious reasoning -- the “mission from God” -- is a little tougher to explain in this case. Yes, comics fans are an elite, but…why? It’s not intelligence, per se, and no one really thinks that comics are going to save the world.

The usually-cited rationale is that comics are an artistic medium as valid as any other, but not recognized as such. Okay, but…so what? Let’s assume it’s true; let’s say that, if they were freed from the limitations of being considered children’s literature, comics could be 30% good and 70% crap, like books (just to pick a, hopefully reasonable, percentage); or 20% good and 80% crap, like movies; or 5% good and 95% crap, like TV. Is that something to be proud of? Is that, in itself, something to champion?

Maybe it is. Maybe the 30% or 20% or 5% of good material is worth the fight. But I don’t think it’s the reason most fans are fighting it.

No, most comics fans have hidden, shameful reasons for their defense of the field. In this respect, as in many others, they’re a lot like their Uncle Hugo who scorns them. Like sf fans, many comics devotees feel like outcasts to begin with, and are looking for something to attach it to. And since comics have traditionally appealed primarily to young readers, adult comics fans have strong attachments to the material they read when they were young -- often when they were quite young.

SF fans enjoy their nostalgia, but comics fans love it -- which makes it difficult to “grow the medium up,” to repurpose it for older readers. A common subject of internet debate -- What was the best period of recent comics history? -- usually devolves into groups of fans all arguing for whatever was being published when they were twelve. And since superhero comics have dominated the landscape for the past thirty years, that’s usually what those fans defend the hardest.

This leads directly to an overreaction: many other fans, especially those of college age, rebel loudly against the stodgy defenders of the past. These fans can’t understand why the comics market doesn’t shift to a graphic novel-only format overnight (answer: it’s an economic disaster, and not everybody wants the damn things) or why the top-selling books continue to be thirty- or sixty-year-old concepts (see nostalgia, above). Either because they don’t understand superhero comics or (more frequently) because they’re ashamed of their own past affection for them, these fans want to throw out all the old -- tear down the direct market, bring down the big companies, destroy the monopolistic distribution system -- then plant a new flag of independence, artistic freedom, and variety in the ashes.

It doesn’t work that way, of course. First of all, the major companies aren’t going anywhere just because a few arthouse mavens say so. Second, this revolutionary attitude risks alienating too many readers, and losing a lot of what makes (American) comics work. Without the direct market, where are you going to sell Love & Rockets and Bone? Bookstores, yes. But to far fewer people, in far smaller numbers.

That’s not to say that revolutionary fervor is a bad thing, especially for comics writers and artists. You’re not going to create great works without great intentions, and this field could certainly use more great works. But I’ll say it again: Superheroes aren’t killing comics any more than space opera, or fantasy, killed science fiction.

So, to sum up:

SF fans think they’re the only forward-looking people in the world.

Comics fans think they’re the sole defenders of a valid art form.

Both may be partly right -- but both have other reasons for their holy missions. And those hidden reasons can lead them to attack each other, unreasonably.

Which leads us right back to the sf/comics schism we’ve been dancing around for four columns now. Is it as bad as ever? Is there hope for the future? What about the children -- oh, Lord, the little children?

Yes, this was supposed to be the final installment of Comics’ Drunken Uncle: Science Fiction. But it’s a big topic, and -- oh, we’ll just let Uncle Hugo, our anthropomorphic representation of the sf field, have the last word for today:

“I guess I did rattle on there a little, huh, kid? But I think I made a point or two. Maybe. You can prob’ly get a nugget or two of wisdom out of ol’ Uncle Hugo’s words. Huh? *belch*

“We’ll definitely wrap this up next time, though, and we’ll kiss 2002 good-bye at the same time. It’ll be New Year’s Eve -- so you know I’ll be sober.”

**

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Creators/stuartwizphoto_f.jpg" width="110" height="113" align="right" alt="Stuart Moore">Stuart Moore has been a writer, a comics editor for Vertigo and Marvel Knights, a kitchen worker, a book editor, and the nighttime manager of the Lawrenceville, NJ Woolworth's curtain department. He has won the Will Eisner award for Best Editor 1996 and the Don Thompson Award for Favorite Editor 1999.

Currently Stuart freelances as a writer of comic books and nonfiction; he’d like you all to go out and buy Zendra, his epic science fiction series from Penny-Farthing Press. Issue #5 of the second series, Zendra: Heart of Fire, is on sale now, and the trade paperback Zendra 1.0: Collocation collects the first series. Then you can go to Stuart’s message board at <a href="http://www.joequesada.com" target="_blank">http://www.joequesada.com</a> and discuss Zendra, this column, or anything else you like. Happy holidays -- see you back here in two weeks for a real Uncle Hugo-style toast!

BoyWonder
12-17-2002, 07:41 AM
[quote] SF fans think they’re the only forward-looking people in the world.

Comics fans think they’re the sole defenders of a valid art form.

<hr></blockquote>
It's strange, but I hardly read science fiction books anymore. I always felt that comics were a better place for sci-fi. The probelm with sci-fi books is that they are so very serious about the science that the characters are just really poorly written (I'm now sure people will post with examples to contradict me). Last things I read were Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson and Feersum Indjinn by Iain M. Banks. Criticism of characters is something that is taken much more seriously in the comics commmunity. I want good motivations for character actions and on that front Sci-fi books are way inferior to comics.

On a side note, it's a real shame that Marvel are not going to explore Sci-fi/fantasy genres because of the failure of Eden's Trail. They should look at Y:The Last Man to appreciate that you just need a great sci-fi concept and success will follow. Marvel shouldn't give up so easily.

Francis Barel
12-17-2002, 10:14 AM
Well, I've always felt that comics are a genre completely on its own, because of the way it works: imagine it: it's MONTHLY!!! Are there any other consumer goods that is out in a new format/packaging/enhanced formula/changed flavor every month? No. And SF books are out mostly once a year. Now, SF magazines? I don't know... The only comparison possible to comics are plain people's magazine, like Premiere or People or ELLE or whatever: it's the only consumer goods that gets a reaction of its consumer IMMEDIATELY.

Tank Abbot
12-17-2002, 10:21 AM
Well done Stuart! Extremely well thought out and communicated. You somehow put into words things that run through my head everytime I go to the comic shop. You mentioned the social outcasts of the sf/comic community, which got me thinking: There are some intelligent people in the comic shop whom I've talked to and respect. But as long as they're dressing like the trench coat mafia, and the majority of them do at my store, the people on the outside of the store will continue to see comics as a weirdo medium, and it will never gain the respect fans so desperately want it to have. Those outside comics, "judging the book by it's cover" if you will, and we fans represent the cover.

gmull528
12-17-2002, 11:09 AM
[quote]Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong>
Criticism of characters is something that is taken much more seriously in the comics commmunity. I want good motivations for character actions and on that front Sci-fi books are way inferior to comics.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, and even though I know that you think you're being sincere, I always have to laugh when people talk about characterization and "character motivation" in standard superhero comics. I know there's Alan Moore and Gilbert Hernandez and maybe a few other decent writers who dabble in mainstream comics, but by and large, if I want to read about people who behave like real human beings, I'm not going to pick up a comic book. I love comics, and I've been reading them off and on for the last 40 years. But believe me, it isn't for the paper-thin characterizations which pervade most comics. Comics can and sometimes do live up to their potential as a beautiful, unique artform. But most of the time, the "characterization" is plain pathetic.

BoyWonder
12-17-2002, 02:05 PM
[quote]Originally posted by gmull528:
<strong>

Comics can and sometimes do live up to their potential as a beautiful, unique artform. But most of the time, the "characterization" is plain pathetic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are quite right. If you want great characterisation, then superhero comics aren't the best place to be. However Sci-fi books are even worse. Dont tell me Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke wrote great characters, because they didn't. But as you say, a few comic writers can do characterisation well, Neil Gaiman being a particular example.

Vacuumboy9
12-17-2002, 02:30 PM
I look forward to a time when these columns are reprinted in a book, and they can sit on my shelf side by side with Warren Ellis's Come In Alone. Many of the ideas Stuart proposes here are in direct conflict with Warren's... and I'm glad for that. I think that there ARE two sides to these issues and that BOTH sides need to be explored and given their moment in the sun.

gmull528
12-17-2002, 05:51 PM
[quote]Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong>
However Sci-fi books are even worse.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I don't think science fiction could be worse than most comics. I don't really read SF anymore, except for writers like Philip Dick or Samuel Delaney or Brian Aldiss. What I find funny is the idea that we have comic book readers who talk about how important characterization is but who would never read Tolstoy or someone like that who was a master at writing characters. Anna Karenina is more real than any number of comic book characters one could name.

Jeffrey D. Smith
12-17-2002, 06:46 PM
Another good job, Stuart. As someone who's been reading comics for 40+ years, and been in sf fandom for 30+, I'm pretty happy to still be reading both.

I do read comics for their nostalgia value. I'm not that interested in the actual comics from the 60s anymore, but I still want the same thing: superheroes. I read other comics, but I mostly read the DC Universe books, just like I started reading at the dawn of the Silver Age. That's what comics are to me: Flash and Green Lantern and Hawkman and the Justice League of America! If I ever stop enjoying superheroes, I'll just drift away from comics.

I don't want science fiction comics (Helix or no Helix), because for the most part science fiction books are way superior to science fiction comics. I'm really glad to see a good book like Y out there, and I enjoy it a lot, but there are better novels than Y published all the time.

Sandman was great (one of the greatest achievements in fantasy since Tolkien, in my opinion), and Queen and Country is tremendous, and Bone is wonderful -- there's a lot of excellent comics out there. But I want my JLA, just like I want my Kim Stanley Robinson and Nancy Kress and Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction. I want them for different reasons; they don't have to do the same things. (I don't need prose super-heroes, either.)

Jeffrey D. Smith

Promethea
12-17-2002, 08:03 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
...these fans want to throw out all the old -- tear down the direct market, bring down the big companies, destroy the monopolistic distribution system -- then plant a new flag of independence, artistic freedom, and variety in the ashes.
<hr></blockquote>

Well except for destroying the monopolistic distribution system, I never wanted to rebuild Comics; just grow up a bit.

Another great installment, Stuart!

little kon-el
12-17-2002, 08:41 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Vacuumboy9:
<strong>I look forward to a time when these columns are reprinted in a book, and they can sit on my shelf side by side with Warren Ellis's Come In Alone. Many of the ideas Stuart proposes here are in direct conflict with Warren's... and I'm glad for that. I think that there ARE two sides to these issues and that BOTH sides need to be explored and given their moment in the sun.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i'm just wondering where you see warren ellis and stuart's ideas conflicting. i don't see much of a conflict. stuart is looking at the past and warren ellis is looking more at changing the format and growing up the sci-fi of superheroes and comics.

little kon-el

little kon-el
12-17-2002, 08:59 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Jeffrey D. Smith:
<strong>Another
I don't want science fiction comics (Helix or no Helix), because for the most part science fiction books are way superior to science fiction comics. I'm really glad to see a good book like Y out there, and I enjoy it a lot, but there are better novels than Y published all the time.\</strong><hr></blockquote>

i don't agree that comics can't do well written characterization or well written sci-fi stories. i think it's a different kind of characterization and different kind of stories. it's a different medium. most people consider sci-fi to be impossible and improbably to do in a movie format until 2001...and most didn't see it as a marketable property until star wars.

i think sci fi has a history in books that comics just don't have. the lineage of sci-fi in the medium of fiction can go back to jules verne or frankenstein. the lineage of sci fi in comic books really just goes back to superman.

but you bring up a good point that some things might be untranslateable (or hard to translate) in comic books. I'm wondering if there is a limitation to the medium. comics can't do "real time." comics can't do sound or moving pictures. it relies on the viewer to fill in the gaps between panels and some of those gaps could be considered nostalgia. it relies on literacy of the reader, and the ability of the reader to pace their words at a certain tempo to create a verbal passage of time.

movies can't do theatrical plays or musicals well. theatre can't have large vistas and complicated changes in scenery. prose has problems dispalying music as part of the narrative. comics are just another medium that has it's share of weaknesses and strengths.

what do the people here think are comic book's technical weaknesses and technical strengths?

little kon-el

Fast_edddie
12-18-2002, 12:02 AM
My bitch about science fiction is that it has become bastardised. The golden age of science fiction was when the prefered form was the short story. All the notably science fiction was produced in this formatt. Even books were first serialised ie Dune.

Today the focus is on books. Unfortunatly there is usually not enough science fiction content to stretch and most writers rely on characterisation to plaster over the gaps.Writers like David Weber and Louis Mcmaster Bujold take note. That's why most science fiction reads like weak space opera.

The proof of this is the rise of pastiches like stars wars and star trek which are churned out with litte in the way of science fiction concept but are consumed because of familiarity with the characters.

Science fiction now suffers from the maldy that has long plagued comics. People reading their favorite characters out of familiarity with no regard for the quality of the story.

Jeffrey D. Smith
12-18-2002, 01:55 AM
When you look at the science fiction section of your local bookstore, you are overwhelmed by the vast numbers of Star Trek and Star Wars novels and other long series of dubious quality. (Individually, some of these books can be entertaining, but they're not what serious sf readers are looking for.)



However, there are still many good sf books published every year. They may be surrounded by crap, but, really, that's always been the case. The type of crap may change, but the good books are still there. I buy more than I read, so I haven't read all these yet, but here are just a few of the sf books of the past few months that struck me as being the real thing: Kim Stanley Robinson, The Years of Rice and Salt; Ted Chiang, Stories of Your Life and Others; China Mieville, The Scar; Carol Emshwiller, The Mount and Report to the Men's Club; Kelley Eskridge, Solitaire; Nancy Kress, Probability Space. And there are more that just aren't coming to mind at the moment. The work is there if you search it out. (And, for those who find the stuff I like a little too soft or "literary," there are good books by Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds and others.)



Yes, sf is dominated by books instead of magazines these days (and I grew up when the sf magazine was king, so I know what's missing now), but since a "golden age" of any field is what was being published when the speaker first encountered and was enthralled by it...well, it really isn't worse now, it's just different.



(I'll tell you what I liked about my own golden age, which was the early-to-mid-1960s: Not only did I love the stuff that was being published then, but almost every good (or not-so-good-but-famous) sf story or novel came back into print in those days. I got a thorough grounding in the field because I could read almost all the sf there ever was that was worth reading--for 40 or 50 cents a book. Yeah, that was my golden age.)

Jeffrey D. Smith

Fast_edddie
12-18-2002, 07:24 AM
My main complaint is the volume of crap.
It no longer seems possible to get a broad over view of either the comics or science fiction fields.

My budget doesnt allow me to get nearly as many comics or books as i'd like. My yearning for Science fiction magazines is that it did offer a chance to glimpse a thousand flowers as stuart titled his column.

Crossgen is doing this with their compendia. I wish the other companies would also. I'd like to get say the avengers and all the individual characters titles like black panther, ironman and Captain America or all the Bat or superman titles.

Craig K
12-18-2002, 01:30 PM
[quote]Originally posted by little kon-el:
<strong>
i'm just wondering where you see warren ellis and stuart's ideas conflicting. i don't see much of a conflict. stuart is looking at the past and warren ellis is looking more at changing the format and growing up the sci-fi of superheroes and comics.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, yes and no. Warren was/is very much against superheroes as the dominating--if not single--genre of comics, and never tolerated any fan who solely read them, and certainly didn't like the fans who take them to the extremes they have.

Both Warren and Stuart know that diversity is the key to keeping comicbooks alive as a medium, but Stuart is, obviously, arguing that super-heroes as they are today have their place. My impression of Warren was that he would be more than happy to see super-heroes gone from the shelves.
(Or, at least the Superman/Spiderman variety--he openly admitted that PLANETARY was a superhero book, but that's a whole different can of worms)

And beyond that, in terms of creator rights and distribution, Warren has been very vocal in the radical change needed in both areas. He never liked the Previews format, and has criticized it often, not to mention was a big supporter of pre-ordering. And he's worked his ass off to position himself where everything he writes is either wholly creator-owned or creator-participation. While Stuart seems to be in favor of this (based on what he's written here), it also appears that he sees no reason there still can't be work-for-hire, and that is something Warren does not support.

And certainly some members of the WEF were more extreme than that. I remember in one thread toward the end of the Forum there were one or two people essentially saying that anyone who buys a super-hero comic is killing the medium. That may or may not be Warren's view per se, but it's certainly in line with it, and those views are cetainly against what Stuart's talking about here.

Bob_W
12-18-2002, 07:03 PM
Excellent column, Stuart. Though I'm surprised you didn't mention the one book that made most SF fans who grew up in the 1950's and 1960's feel superior to everyone else - CHILDREN OF THE ATOM by Wilmar Shiras. Based on the novelet "In Hiding," published in 1949, and written by a schoolteacher, it tells of mutant children hiding their superhuman intelligence while attending normal schools as they are afraid of being treated differently by everyone else.

sounds like the idea would make a good comic book series ---

bob w.

Elayne Riggs
12-23-2002, 12:38 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>So, to sum up:

SF fans think they’re the only forward-looking people in the world.

Comics fans think they’re the sole defenders of a valid art form.

Both may be partly right -- but both have other reasons for their holy missions. And those hidden reasons can lead them to attack each other, unreasonably.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps many of the attacks come from a position of having to be so defensive all the time. If you go around ascribing undue importance and priority to what is, after all, only a form of entertainment, you're understandably going to be looked down on by the population at large, and that has a tendency to make you defensive.

- Elayne