JIC: JESUS AND YOU

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Other_Publishers/CBLDF_logo.jpg" width="110" height="76" align="right">by Michael Sangiacomo

First they came for Super Taboo and I didn’t care because Japanese incest comics always creeped me out anyway.

Then they came for those porno comics from Eros and I didn’t care because I have enough of them.

Then they came for Cherry and Peepshow and I cared, but figured it’s not a huge loss since Larry Welz and Joe Matt were only putting them out once every leap year.

Then they came for Naughty Bits, The Authority, Alias and half of the Fantagraphics line and I was pissed off, but kept quiet.

And by the time they came for X-Men and the Vertigo line, there were no comic shop owners to complain to.

A man walked into a comic shop in East Dallas, Texas, back in November, 1999, and asked to see a particularly sexually explicit comic that the shop owner kept behind the counter.

It was one of those hardcore Japanese comics, Demon Beast Invasion: The
Fallen put out by CPM.

We’ve all seen enough Japanese X-rated stuff to know the drill: lots of women in short, pleated skirts and lots of sex, often by demons with tails that resemble penises. I didn’t see this comic, but let’s assume the sex was pretty raw.

Now here’s where it gets wonky.

The man who sold him the comic book at Keith’s Comics, Jesus Castillo, was arrested on a misdemeanor charge of selling obscene material.

(for a brief recap of the event and case, click <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000028" target="_blank"> here</a>.)

Let’s be clear here: He was not selling dirty pictures of minors, he was not even selling pictures, just a comic. He didn’t sell the comic to a kid, but to an adult who happened to be a cop who went there with the specific intent to bust Castillo.

At his trial the city prosecutor argued that comics, by their very nature, were meant for children. Somehow, even though this comic was never in the hands of a child, unless the police passed it around, a jury of numbskulls convicted Castillo.

The members of the jury, who probably never heard of The Authority, Preacher, Punisher or any of the other dozens of comics clearly meant for adults, bought the argument that comics were for kids and that a dirty comic was bad. Never mind that Dallas has more strip clubs per mile than any city this side of Vegas, or that anybody with five bucks or an internet hook-up can get more porn than they should shake their stick at, the citizens of Dallas desperately need to be
protected from crappy drawings of porn on paper.

When I first heard of the arrest I didn’t think much of it. Surely, he would get off. But he was convicted and I was a bit concerned. Still, I figured it was a fluke that would be corrected in the appeals process.

On Oct. 31, the appeals court in Dallas upheld the jury’s decision.

What the fuck is going on in Texas?

See? I can say “fuck” because we’re protected by the first amendment. In this case, when taken in context with the entire article, it fits because it demonstrated how fucking pissed off I am.

Apparently, Texas is the exception. So any readers in Texas might want to switch to the Archie homepage (www.archiecomic.com)

Look, if an adult wants to buy some porn, whether it be comics or DVDs and enjoy it in the privacy of his home, that’s his or her right.

THIS IS AMERICA DAMN IT!

That’s why we kicked the Brits out. Well, we didn’t exactly kick the Brits out so we could read porn, but you get the picture.

Getting back to the Castillo case, the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund will file an appeal to the United States Supreme Court, but getting a case heard by the highest court in the land isn’t as easy as finding a virgin at a comic book convention, quite the opposite in fact. It’s a million-to-one shot.

The court sentenced Castillo to 160 days in jail and suspended the sentence, meaning he won’t have to sit in jail. The more frightening result is the chilling effect this could have on comic dealers across the country.

Many shop owners are slicing the lunchmeat pretty thin as it is. Why should they risk arrest, fines and jail just to sell $50 a week worth of adult comics?

It’s much easier to sell the safe stuff, the WalMart approved comics that no one will get in trouble for. If the readers never see the comics, they won’t miss them.

“The scary part is that he was doing it the right way,” said Charles Brownstein, executive director of the CBLDF. “He had the regular comics in the front. In the back of the store, in a roped-off area, he sold the comics meant for mature readers, the Vertigo and Max lines - the mature comics published by DC and Marvel respectively. Then the sexually-oriented comics were kept behind the counter and would be brought out only when adults requested them.”

It’s clear that Castillo was making sure that kids would not see the adult comics, and that’s a good thing.

If he could be busted and convicted than we need to face the cold hard fact that almost any comic shop owner in the country could be arrested at any moment in the same manner. Let that sink in – an adult individual, working for the local police could walk into a shop, buy a comic that they deem to be not for children, and arrest the person who sold it, and put the shop itself into a world of trouble.

After all, now that Castillo has been convicted, and the conviction stood upon appeal, legal precedent has been set. If the argument that comics are a children’s medium, and therefore should not, or can not contain adult material held up in Texas, it might hold up elsewhere.

“We brought in three experts, the city only had the police officer and his opinion that the comic was obscene,” said Brownstein. “We had author Scott McCloud who testified that comics today are primarily made for, and bought by, adults. We had an expert who explained the comic in the context of Japanese culture. And we showed a stack of pornographic magazines that we bought at different shops within five blocks of the shop.

“And still we lost because the jury believed that comics are just for kids,” he said. “It’s very frustrating.”

We can all hope that the police in our town are not as peculiar as the cops in East Dallas; that the city prosecutors have better things to do and that the juries are not so ignorant.

But I can’t help feeling that something very special was trampled on the streets of East Dallas that day.

I’d sure like to hear from any comic fans in Dallas, or East Dallas.

You Dallas folks should be flooding the local newspapers and television stations with letters and phone calls protesting the incredibility stupidity of the police and elected officials. I work for a major newspaper; we’d go nuts for a story like this.

Call local radio stations and tell them about it, get those morning zoo guys and local talk radio stations excited about it. Just prepare what you want to say in advance, rehearse it, so you don’t stutter and stammer and sound like you’re speaking without conviction. That would make it worse. Try to sound cool.

Get some balls, get off your computers and organize a protest outside the police station and the prosecutor’s office, just make sure you get a permit first and follow the rules.

Start a whisper campaign, talk loudly in elevators about what idiots the prosecutors and the cops and what they did.

Try to find cops and lawyers who agree with you, though that might be tough.

And reward Keith’s Comics and any other comic shop in the area that continues to sell adult comics by buying the stuff.

So let’s end this sad story with something positive:

What can we do to make sure this doesn’t happen again?

There is space provided below for any and all suggestions. Let’s hear ‘em.

[hiphophead]

Amazing the cop had the time to bust a guy for selling an adult comic to an ADULT!!!, but he probably did not have the time to bust the girl down at the strip tease joint selling her product. What a country!!

[KACH]

Oh Lord.

This is ridiculous!

This makes me angry.

I don't live in TX, but want to do something about this. Something, anything small. Ideas?

--J.

[csGuy]

This care scares me so much.
Those jurors (amongst others) must have been some of the most close minded, ignorant people EVER.

Next up: anime is only for kids!
Proof: pokemon, digimon, sailor moon. so get rid of all that other stuff like Ghost in the Shell or Evangelion.

[DarthRandall]

For those of us (myself included) outside of Texas, try a donation to the CBLDF. I'm sure there's a link to their page here somewhere.
I've ran into these folks at two conventions this past summer, and they take any size donation - even a buck or two will help.

For those of you in Dallas, support this shop. Skip going to your regular shop for one week and give this guy your weekly new comic stipend. I'm sure the owner of your regular shop won't mind it a bit.

And here's a newsflash for some of you - it's only going to get worse. With the recent Republican coup earlier this month, things are going to get a lot more conservative.

Batten down the hatches and make sure you stick that X-rated comic you, as an adult, are allowed to buy into the middle of all the Superman and Archies you buy. Big brother will be watching - make sure you cover your own hindquarters.

[Aaron Weisbrod]

I hate to say something like this, but it ALMOST sounds as if the case was rigged... or at least held in a kangaroo court.

I mean, an adult SPECIFICALLY asked for a pornography comic, the dealer takes it out from behind the counter and gives it directly to HIM, and then the dealer gets busted for soliciting obscene materials all because it's a book filled with sexually explicit drawings rather than a book filled with sexually explicit photographs?

Uh... yeah. Sure. :rolleyes:

The sad truth of the matter is that most people's perception of comics is still based on the old Adam West "Batman" TV show, and by extension the majority of the population in the United States still thinks that comics are just farcical power-fantasy stories for kids.

Sorry, folks, but that's pretty much a fact.

If we (as comic readers) want to change this perception we need to be able to show people that not all comic books are meant for childern... whether that be through PREACHER, SANDMAN, 100 BULLETS, MURDER ME DEAD, STRANGERS IN PARADISE, RUSE, THE PATH, ROUTE 666, WAY OF THE RAT, HELLBOY, SIN CITY, LONE WOLF AND CUB, WHY I HATE SATURN, I DIE AT MIDNIGHT, BOX OFFICE POISON, MAUS, JIMMY CORRIGAN... whatever.

Now look over that list of books again. Notice that (with the marginal exception of SANDMAN) none of those books contain people wearing spandex.

Mind you, it's not that I'm against superhero comics in any way. In fact, superhero comics are arguably of a better quality now than they EVER have EVER been in the past. However, that being said, I think it's difficult to tell people uninformed about comics that this medium is not just meant for kids and then trying to prove it to them by shoving a copy of NEW X-MEN or THE ULTIMATES in their faces.

Sorry, folks, but by doing that you're doing little more than feeding into their preconceptions.

My advice is this: branch out, find good non-superhero-based books (preferably short TPBs) and leave them on your coffee table. Then, when people come over, let them see them. Heck, encourage then to take the TPB home so they can read it over the next week or two.

Yes, WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS are GREAT books, but these are not the books that will convince readers that comics are a medium directed at more than kids. Why? Because, in spite of the fact that "Spider-Man" was (and is) the highest grossing movie of all time, most people still see superheroes as child's play.

Period.

With numb fingers,
Aaron Weisbrod

[John Jones]

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I almost feel sorry for and am quite alarmed at the lack of intelligence of the police, prosecutor, and jury of this town. What is even more frightening is that the Texas Court of Appeals upheld such a ludicrous decision. It is hard to believe that a court would so fragrantly spit in the face of the Constitution. And sadly, this case has almost no chance of being heard at the Supreme Court level when only around 1% of cases brought to the SC are actually heard. I wish only the best for Jesus Castillo, and hope that somebody with the power to uverturn this decision has a little common sense.

[Nat Gertler]

[quote]Originally posted by Aaron Weisbrod:
<strong>Because, in spite of the fact that "Spider-Man" was (and is) the highest grossing movie of all time</strong><hr></blockquote>No it's not. Even calculating based on unadjusted gross, it's the fifth highest grossing film in US history (behind two Star Wars movies, ET, and at #1, Titanic). Worldwide, it comes in seventh, behind Independence Day, Lord Of The Rings, Jurassic Park, Phantom Menace, Harry Potter, and Titanic, which has grossed literally a billion dollars more than Spider-Man.

[LincolnG]

Ok, if they really think those comics are for kids, then why don't they go after the distributors or publishers? Doesn't that mean that CPM is making porn for children? Is it legal to create "pornography" with an intent to sell it to minors? Why wouldn't the government stop that from happening if anyone really thought that was the case?

Is it the defense lawyers in Texas that aren't worth a crap or the judges? I can't decide.

[gOgIver]

Before y'all take to the streets, let's put the blame where it be-long-s. On the defense attorney. Yeah, that's right. It's all his/her fault I say. Who's job is it to select the jury? Who's job is it to "work" the jury?

I recommend Lomax from the movie "The Devil's Advocate". Or Matthew Murdock. :D Or maybe Jonnie Cock-Ring. Or Barry Scheck.

Remember, you are innocent until proven BROKE!

[MichaelCoughlin]

Forget wether comics are for kids or not, that has NOTHING to do with this case. Frankly, you'll find a number of people within the industry who would like to see comics aimed at kids today, as opposed to the more risque 'adult' stuff that is popular currently.

This is simple: a man had porno (which is what the comic is. Dress it up, call it "anime" or whatever, it's just people having sex in the end), he had it seperate from EVERYTHING else in the store, and sold it to an adult who SPECIFICALLY asked for it. It's not like the guy said, "Hey, got any comics I'd enjoy" and was handed the porn.

If this owner had had the comic lumped in with the rest of the comics, I'd say throw his ass in jail. If it's with everything else, kids could get to it. But the way he was doing everything, from what we've heard reported, was done PERFECTLY!

[GPM]

I wonder if CPM, the makers of the comic have done anything to support the CBLDF? I would hope so. Actually, not only do the fans and retailers need to get behind this gentleman and give their support and donations to the CBLDF, but I think this case is so essential to establishing a precedent that Marvel, DC, Image and any other publisher who wants to continue to publish whatever they want should support the CBLDF's efforts on this. Also the Anime and Manga companies, CPM, Anime Works, Pioneer and ADV need to back them up as well. They are the companies making all the money on this stuff. If they want to continue to be able to make cash off of this stuff and retain their creative freedom, they all need to make a stand together with the fans and retailers and tell these fools that this is America and we have the right to read what we want. If Marvel, DC, Image, ADV, CPM and the others want to have someone outside of their industry tell them what they can publish, they should continue their silence on this matter. If they want to stand up for themselves, they should unite with each other and us.

[Justin M. Campbell]

I'm completely unfamiliar with the geography of any Texas town, so what I'm about to say might not apply. To play devil's advocate, the officer was within his authority to file charges against Mr. Castillo. Let me explain. To the best of my knowledge, any business trafficing in adult material must sell that material only in areas designated to be of no risk to children by the city zoning commission. If the store was outside of this zone, the officer would have been within the rights of the law to fine, or order that such material(which is typically only labeled 'Mature Readers[i.e. FantaCo's Amazon Woman]) cease to be sold w/o ID. Having said that, the course of action taken against Mr. Castillo was excessive to the point of being laughably pathetic, as well as setting a dangerous precedent for places like WaldenBooks, Bookland, and small town gas-stations that sell mags like Playboy or Penthouse. But this par for the course for Texas(Friendly Frank's springs instantaneously to mind). The state is a bit problematic in certain areas(air pollution standards[source: NBC News, Sept. 2000], Teen pregnancy in Lubbock[source:MTV News Special, Oct. 2002], etc.), and First Amendment Rights going out the window : 1) In this political climate, and 2) In Texas(not a state known for tolerance[source: Dragging Case, 1999; Documentary about football team of small Texas town{Go Tigers! I think is the name} and personally, I think that guy who had the gall and lack of decency/good taste/compassion/civility/fill-in-the-blank to protest outside the church at Matthew Shepard's funeral was from Texas) is not particularly surprising. Somewhere, Frederick Whertham is smiling. Here's hoping we can smack it off his punk-ass face.
Just Me, JMC

On a lighter note: "Oh and I'm back BACK! The fog has lifted. The earth has shifted and raised the gifted." - Kid Rock

[heeBGB]

[quote]Originally posted by DarthRandall:
<strong>For those of us (myself included) outside of Texas, try a donation to the CBLDF. I'm sure there's a link to their page here somewhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is now:

<a href="http://www.cbldf.org/" target="_blank">http://www.cbldf.org/</a>

[1.5]

when i first read about this i frigured it was no big deal, an isolated circus of stupidity. and while i still think that no other courts could be that dumb/ignorant/closeminded/republican i am losing some of the conviction fof that belief.

i have never liked texas, to me it has always been a symbol of everything i hate/am embarrassed of my country being. as much as i hate to condemn a state based soley on the acts of a few, things this conservvative and damn near inexcusably moronic keep happening. i dont mean to offend any of the foward thinking and inteeligent people who take of residence there, so i suggest u move to a different state.

while texas may be the shining beacon of idiocy in this country it is by far not the only offender (S.C. :hey lets keep a symbol of slavery and oppression on our state capitol anyone?) there is an alarming trend in this country towards the fucking dark ages. i swear to BOB that its gonna go from porverbial witch hunts to actually ones if this shit keeps happening.

the thing that pisses me off the most about this incident and all others like it is that it shows the negative potential of this country. I think it is about time to show the potential of greatness this country offers.

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by 1.5:
<strong>when i first read about this i frigured it was no big deal, an isolated circus of stupidity. and while i still think that no other courts could be that dumb/ignorant/closeminded/republican i am losing some of the conviction fof that belief.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just like local news channels leech stories off of one another - we all have seen the "Our reporter asked 17 children at a local playground to help him look for his puppy. Think you know what your child would say? Think again" stories, after all. Any local prosecutor could use both the Texas arrest and case as a template to use in their own community, tweaking it as needed to make it fit their local specifics.

At trial, the prosecutor could point to the case in Texas as a reason why their target should be convicted - after all, something the courts try to avoid is, well, at least a blatant image that the laws across the country are not enforced in a uniform manner.

Yeah - just beacuse Texas found Jesus guilty means that other places could find retailers guilty as well.

MattB

[Tom Daylight]

Considering that the jury went in there with pre-conceptions about comics, should they have legally been accepted to adjourn this trial at all?

[Dan20]

Yes, this case is ridiculously stupid, and the fact that it's continued at all is beyond me.

Oh, and did we really need to open this column with a 'spoof' of a Holocaust-related poem?

[Michael C Lorah]

This is why I think Texas should be allowed to become its own country. Because who really wants to keep it.

[quote]Originally posted by Dan20:
<strong>Oh, and did we really need to open this column with a 'spoof' of a Holocaust-related poem?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought it fit with the situation...

[Vodak]

While everyone here should be angry about this case it could be worse. the local police could pick up all the adults that go to the store and say they were trying to abduct children.

[MattFreakinLittle]

Why oh WHY is it that people cannot fathom that comics are a MEDIUM, just like film, TV, finger painting, etc? Just becuase American culture has created a stigma surrounding this medium, someone who was doing NOTHING ILLEGAL gets the shaft. Ya know, it's times like this that I realize how small-minded people are in this world. I personally don't give a shit about that Japanese filth that was bought, but you know what? I don't give a shit about the filth that John Waters produces either. The common denominator there is that I don't bother with them. This is like trying to arrest a movie theatre manager for showing '8 Mile' because Eminem has sex in the movie and uses a lot of bad language, and his main audience is kids. Whatever, I'm gonna talk to some of my media law professors about this, because I HAVE to know how this whole deal is anywhere near legit.

[MindTricked]

This just sets a nasty precedent... a case that, when a similar situation occurs (and it will), that can be quoted and brought up in court, and basically screw any retailer. Now, I'm thinking about the shop I go to, and realize that books like Alias are right there with all the other new comics of the week... and stuff like Bondage Fairies (that always makes me chuckle) is right there behind the counter, next to the Playboys and a few feet from the Yu-Gi-Oh cards. Yipe. I'm going there this evening - I think I'll shout out a warning.

Oh - steal a horse in Texas, you can still be hung. It's on the books.

[BLACKBRIAR]

Wow. You Americans should be ashamed (and hopefully incensed enough to try to force change).

Like the world needs any more proof your country is filled with a bunch of moronic trigger-happy hicks.

[bad librarian]

"That's why we kicked the Brits out".
Sweet. And there was me thinking it was because the middle classes wanted to pay less tax.

I think comic shops that sell crap comics should get busted by the pigs. "Hello, hello, hello, wots all this then? Marville issue one? You're nicked my sahn".

[Nathan Jewell]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:

So let’s end this sad story with something positive:

What can we do to make sure this doesn’t happen again?

There is space provided below for any and all suggestions. Let’s hear ‘em.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

What about a letter writing campaign to the supreme court? Is there any way to get a case heard based upon volume of noise we generate for a case?

If this case was about playboy or hustler, you can bet your ass that those companies would have stood up and threw about a billion dollars at the case, where were the comic book companies at, why are they not a part of this fight?

[Gelogurte]

Well, I'm not an american, I don't live in America... and this is probably THE MOST STUPID THING I EVER READ IN MY ENTIRE LIFE!

That cop probably has something personal against mr Castillo. Or he is probably some uptight redneck racist motherf***er that has nothing better to do with his bastard life. And the sadest part is that the US Justice Department backed him!

God damn it, people! Do something about this!

[Icewing_X]

Hey, it was Texas. Just be thankful they didn't give him the death penalty.

~Icewing, joking, very obviously

[John Osen]

Talk about intolerance for other's viewpoints and illiteracy! Was AnthonyL on the jury? :p

[MIKEON-LINE]

Regarding the First Amendment, and the responsible handling of the material in question:

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but why is it that, in parts of the States where the "Americana" ideology flourishes (i.e. just baout everywhere, but especially the South), many key values and aspects of the said national concept seem to be (at some times) shelved, cast aside based if the situation ticks someone off, or otherwise forgotten?

If you walked up to the prosecutor, or any of the members of that jury, and accused them of being, let's say, a "Traitor to American Values!", the chances are you'd get an earful of how patriotic they are (and maybe a punch in the jaw for daring to question their loyalty to the USA). But at the same time, they've shoved one of those values aside, because it's easier for them to be hypocrites than to just do as America's founders intended and mind their own business ('live with it!') about viewpoints (etc.) that they don't agree with.

Free speech? Sure - you're free to say, read, sell etc. anything you like, but only so long as it falls within line of what the masses think is true.

If I had money, I'd definitely donate to the CBLDF.

[Danilo Raul]

[quote]Originally posted by John Doe:
<strong>Talk about intolerance for other's viewpoints and illiteracy! Was AnthonyL on the jury? :p </strong><hr></blockquote>


Damn Right!!, i consider american culture one of the best, albeit a tad superficial at times, but things like this one makes me wonder how the fuck U.S.A is the prime country of the world...
:(

[doom]

[quote]Originally posted by DarthRandall:
And here's a newsflash for some of you - it's only going to get worse. With the recent Republican coup earlier this month, things are going to get a lot more conservative.<hr></blockquote>

i'd point out that tipper gore and joseph leiberman, both democrats, are two of the staunchest supporters of censorship.

[Wade @ Sighnub.com]

I am incensed about this for two reasons:

First, it's ridiculous. The whole idea that this has made it through several levels of trial and has been upheld. Ridiculous.

Second, I am ashamed because most of the posters on this board ( U.S. and international ) are guilty of the exact same small-mindedness and idiocy as these 12-24 people ( jury and judges and laywers ) in Texas. You yell at them for being close-minded and hicks and stupid for their stereotyping and conclusion-jumping; meanwhile, I am hearing comments like:

It's the stupid Texans
...moronic Americans...
We'll get even more of this with the Republicans
Conservatives are the cause of all this.

Yeesh - do you hear yourselves. Pot. Kettle. Black. Anyone?

The republicans didn't do anything here ( most republicans are also constitutionalists - meaning they support the Bill of Rights in the extreme ). The conservatives didn't do it either for the same reason. Some very smart and decent people come from Texas. And hey, America is a pretty damned great country and so are most of its people.

That being said it wasn't the liberals or the democrats or the New Englanders or the Europeans either. It was this small group of people in Texas who have made a terrible error.

And as the article suggests, let's quit the bitchin' and do something about. The people with best chance of combatting this are CBLDF - please donate to them. Your support is needed. In the meantime, talk to your retailers - make sure that they know this stuff is going on, so that they don't fall into the same problem. Not only that, next to the publishers, they are the ones most able to financially battle this thing (not to mention being the ones with the most to lose financially).

Write Marvel, DC, CPM, Viz, Image, etc. As much as I want to Save Spider-Girl, isn't this a more worthy cause to throw your weight behind. Send an e-mail, write a letter, do something.

And if you are from Texas or this area of Texas, write your local representatives, contact your local citizens groups, get the word out.

This simply can not be allowed to continue...

Thanks for listening.

[howler]

and let us all remember that our president is a texan(take that any way you want)

[Chris Galdieri]

----------

[Sammycomic]

its sad that the most obsene aspect of this story is 12 individuals couldn't find the time to get their heads up out their asses.

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]<strong>We can all hope ... that the juries are not so ignorant.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You'll be hoping in vain. Most people are that ignorant. And not just ignorant, but so stupid that they still won't understand if you spell it out in words of one syllable... with pictures.

[quote]<strong>And reward Keith’s Comics and any other comic shop in the area that continues to sell adult comics by buying the stuff.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You don't have to buy the stuff if it's not your cuppa. But shop there anyway.

Several years ago, when I got back into comics as a grown-up, I checked out all the places I could find in town where comics were sold before picking a place to go regularly. One of the factors that I used to narrow it down was which ones had a decent stock of "adult" comics... not because I needed a large supply of them, but because that's the sort of place I knew would carry good stuff regardless of its subject matter. I haven't been disappointed.

Cheers, Todd

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by Danilo Raul:
<strong>
...things like this one makes me wonder how the fuck U.S.A is the prime country of the world....
</strong><hr></blockquote>

According to whom? Just Americans, as far as I've ever heard.

[carl_henderson]

I live in Dallas, and I have for nearly ten year now. I've shopped at Keith's Comics in the past, and believe it is one of the better comic shops in the Dallas area. I also support their fight against this sort of police and prosecutorial harassment--I've even donated money (not huge amount), and original art to a benefit auction (a really cool Mike Turner sketch), to Keith's/CBLDF for fighting this case. I'd have gladly voted against the local DA (Bill Hill) if I lived in Dallas County.

Despite that I've got a serious problem with Michael Sangiacomo's article above.

Most of the actions Michael Sangiacomo proposes in his column would have almost no impact on the situation. Protesting in front of the prosecutor's office, trying to get sympathetic coverage in local media, writing letters, calling officials, etc. is all beside the point now. The trial in question happened nearly two years ago. It's what's known as "old news." I have a hard time believing Sangiacomo's "Major Newspaper" would really "go nuts" for a story two years old

It's possible Sangiacomo's suggestions might have been effective in pressuring the local prosecutor to drop the case before the trial. However Keith's Comics and the CBLDF chose to keep the case secret (never giving any specifics about what comic shop and what Texas city were involved) until after the trial was over, and a guilty verdict had been rendered. While the CBLDF and Keith's Comics no doubt had good reasons for this decision, by the time that anyone knew about the case, it was in the hands of the appellate court system--institutions notoriously unsusceptible to direct public influence.


I'd also like to address a few other comments in this thread:


"DarthRandall" suggests that comics fans in Dallas "support this shop." Certainly a good idea, but then he goes on to say, "skip going to your regular shop for one week and give this guy your weekly new comic stipend. I'm sure the owner of your regular shop won't mind it a bit." If--like most comics readers--you have a hold list at your regular shop, this would not be a harmless bit of charity. Most shop owners order comics based on their subscription lists. If you come in one week and say, "sorry, I bought my comics this week at Keith's," your local retailer is just going to be stuck with stuff he or she ordered in good faith for you. It would be much better to stop by Keith's and pick up a TPB you had been thinking of buying, or perhaps some back issues, or anime, or action figures.

"DarthRandall" also comments that "with the recent Republican coup earlier this month, things are going to get a lot more conservative." There was no "Republican coup"; the Republicans won a majority in the Senate (and maintained their majority in the House) in hundreds of elections across the country. Elections--not a coup. If you don't agree with the outcome of those elections, then remember to vote next time.

Aaron Weisbrod suggests that it "almost sounds as if the case was rigged... or at least held in a kangaroo court." There's very likely an element of truth to that--the decision to prosecute was very likely not motivated by anything approaching a desire for justice. According to the CBLDF's initial article on this case, TROUBLE IN TEXAS: "a mother became upset by the high price of the store's limited selection of Pokémon cards. "You'll regret this," she had exclaimed, storming out of the store. 'I know very important people. All I'd have to do is tell them what you're selling here.'" Several months later, Jesus Castillo was arrested.

Rumors circulating around the local comics community also pointed to the involvement of the Dallas city councilwoman (Mary Voss) for that region in pressuring the police to get involved. I can't confirm these rumors, but it would not be out of character for her. In other words, don't be too hard on the Dallas police; political pressure was very likely applied.

"gOgIver" writes, "let's put the blame where it be-long-s. On the defense attorney. Yeah, that's right. It's all his/her fault I say. Who's job is it to select the jury?" There's no nice way to say this--his comments are idiotic. The defense attorney doesn't "select the jury." Jurors are pulled from a random pool of voter, and the prosecution and defense are each allowed to strike a limited number of potential jurors.

Justin M. Campbell writes, "this par for the course for Texas (Friendly Frank's springs instantaneously to mind)." Friendly Frank's may have sprung to Justin Campbell's mind, but his geography is off by several thousand miles; Friendly Frank's (the store who's prosecution was the impetus for the formation of the CBLDF) was located in Lansing, Illinois.

That's not the only thing Justin Campbell's confused about. He asserts that the "guy who had the gall and lack of decency/good taste/compassion/civility/fill-in-the-blank to protest outside the church at Matthew Shepard's funeral was from Texas." He's wrong, here, too. Fred Phelps (the "God Hates Fags" nut) is from of Topeka, Kansas.

"1.5" comments that he "hate to condemn a state [Texas] based solely on the acts of a few," and then proceeds to do so for several paragraphs. Whatever...

"MindTricked" asserts that, "steal a horse in Texas, you can still be hung. It's on the books." He's wrong, of course. Stealing a horse hasn't been a capital crime (outside of bad westerns) for nearly a century.

"Blackbriar" more expansive with his abuse, encompassing the entire US, rather than just Texas, commenting that "your country is filled with a bunch of moronic trigger-happy hicks." I'm sure Blackbriar's country is a beacon of tolerance and free expression for the entire world--or rather I might be if he's bothered to list it in his profile (along with anything approaching his real name).

Finally, Gelogurte comments that "the saddest part [of the case] is that the US Justice Department backed him [the arresting officer]" This is incorrect. The Keith's Comic's case was a local affair; the Department of Justice was not involved. It won't even enter the US federal court system, unless the Supreme Court accepts the case.

For more information about Keith's Comics case, check out the <a href="http://www.cbldf.org/busted.shtml" target="_blank">"News" section of the CBLDF's web site</a>, and the Dallas Observer article, <a href="http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2001-01-04/news.html/1/index.html" target="_blank">"Dirty Pictures."</a>

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by Justin M. Campbell:
<strong>To play devil's advocate, the officer was within his authority to file charges against Mr. Castillo. Let me explain. To the best of my knowledge, any business trafficing in adult material must sell that material only in areas designated to be of no risk to children by the city zoning commission. ....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh, I'm sure this sting was perfectly LEGAL. That's why it's probably going to stand. And that's the problem. The point is that the laws that make this kind of nonsense happen - laws drafted by demagogues with good fund-raising and interpretted by politically appointed judges - are screwed up. These so-called zoning-based regulations are just a tool to shut down businesses that don't meet the approval of the local lawmakers.

Just here in town in the last few years, I've seen an adult bookstore desperately seeking a plot of land on which it can operate after their landlord turned their building into a parking lot, and a church threatening to shut down the bars that bring people into a nearby business district, just by moving into the neighborhood.

The bottom line is that we don't have a free market in this country, because the people who pretend to be friends of business really only want to help their friends' businesses.

Cheers, Todd

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by Nathan Jewell:
<strong>What about a letter writing campaign to the supreme court? Is there any way to get a case heard based upon volume of noise we generate for a case?</strong><hr></blockquote>

In a word: no.

And frankly, I'm glad that the Supreme Court doesn't respond (at least not directly) to letter campaigns or other demonstrations of public opinion. Because public opinion is quite often very mistaken.

Cheers, Todd

[Daddy]

I lived in East Dallas when I was in junior high, and I distinctly remember not being allowed to buy the mature readers books I was reading at one of the comic shops in the area. Don't remember if the place was called Keiths comics or not (name does sound familiar though).

This is just one example of the ridiculous crap the cops in that area of Texas Get away with. I agree the outcome of this trial is scary, but blaming it all on the conservative "hicks" in Texas is stupid. Most people see comics as childrens material, no matter what state they live in. This decision could have been made anywhere (I am not saying it 100% would have, just that a jury could have been put together from any state that would have made the same decision).

And what the Hell does the flag in S.C. have to do with this? The stars and stripes flew over slavery for something like 90 years. Why is that not an issue? The "symbol of racism" in S.C. was based on a flag that flew over an army for four years-and thats it. You people (directed solely at those that are bashing Texas/conservatives/the south) spout off about first amendment rights one minute, and then crucify people for not having the same beliefs as you the next.

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by doom:
<strong>i'd point out that tipper gore and joseph leiberman, both democrats, are two of the staunchest supporters of censorship.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And you'd be wrong.

Granted, both of them have little regard for free speech, but there are far bigger supporters of censorship to be found out there. On the whole, one of the two major parties is far more supportive of censorship than the other, and the existence of counter-examples doesn't change that.

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by Wade @ Sighnub.com:
<strong>The republicans didn't do anything here ( most republicans are also constitutionalists - meaning they support the Bill of Rights in the extreme ).</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm afraid that's a bit of wishful thinking, or perhaps just mistaking popular rhetoric for public opinion. Most Republicans (or Democrats for that matter) don't form their opinions on the basis of a political philosophy. Like most people, they form their opinions based on what they feel is right, and then find a ideological framework that seems to support it. But they don't then reshape all their opinions to conform to it; they just use the arguments of that philosophy when it suits them. You might insist that they're not "true Republicans" and you might be right. But for better or worse, we don't have ideologies in office; we have people.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by bad librarian:
<strong>"That's why we kicked the Brits out".
Sweet. And there was me thinking it was because the middle classes wanted to pay less tax.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, this is where Sangi really let me down. He started to sound just like those unsophistocated rednecks that he was supposedly railing against.

Hmmm... No ability to critically examine history... Perhaps that's why the US is in such poor shape.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by carl_henderson:
<strong>"Blackbriar" more expansive with his abuse, encompassing the entire US, rather than just Texas, commenting that "your country is filled with a bunch of moronic trigger-happy hicks." I'm sure Blackbriar's country is a beacon of tolerance and free expression for the entire world--or rather I might be if he's bothered to list it in his profile (along with anything approaching his real name).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

First of all, you really need to listen to what is important to your government.

And you still don't get why most of the world thinks the US is filled with trigger-happy moronic hicks?

Sorry if those adjectives sully your self-esteem but the rest of the world has no duty to try to make you feel good about yourself when your country consistently makes self-centred dumb choices.

And no, I am not perfect, no one is, but I don't have the gall nor arrogance to make the kind of stupid and hypocritical statements/actions that your country constantly performs.

And finally you'd think that a court case as stilted and nonsensical like this one would make you guys a little more humble. If something like this could happen in the "land of the free", then perhaps you should focus your efforts on your homeland rather than others.

But no, I bet, instead, there will be at least three stupid responses to my post here.

Jesus, I am waiting for the ubiquitous "oh yeah, well we saved your butts [the French] back in WWII so you should shut up" moronic reply.

[DocBrass]

seeing as how there is not too many replies from people in Texas...here is a reply from Houston.

1. Texas is pretty conservative. We do have a death penalty, but a majority of the offenders on death row are there for commiting a serious offense.

2. Dallas is VERY conservative. (I kind probably say that since I'm from Houston, but there are more biased people up there. Houston has become a melting pot of cultures.) There are more high rollers, oil money, sugar daddies up there.

3. I have a feeling this was a "sting" operation from some close minded sheriff and they were intentionally looking for porno comics.

4. Good lawyers cost money. Do you think a comic book shop can afford a good defense lawyer? That is CBLDF is for.

Its late and this is a quick post. Hope this gives more input to this discussion.

-Jay

[Jeremy Williams]

Da Briar is back! :cool:

What happened to this shop-owner, the only way it happened is because someone denounced him, right? Because the cops could not know what was in this particular shop-owner`s shop what he had for merchandise if they adden`t entered there. Any other ways they could have known? So basicly the law feeds on stupid, paranoiac citizens. And as long as we don`t stick together, things like that will keep happening.

[Wade @ Sighnub.com]

[quote]Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
<strong>

I'm afraid that's a bit of wishful thinking, or perhaps just mistaking popular rhetoric for public opinion. Most Republicans (or Democrats for that matter) don't form their opinions on the basis of a political philosophy. Like most people, they form their opinions based on what they feel is right, and then find a ideological framework that seems to support it. But they don't then reshape all their opinions to conform to it; they just use the arguments of that philosophy when it suits them. You might insist that they're not "true Republicans" and you might be right. But for better or worse, we don't have ideologies in office; we have people.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Good points, Todd, and well expressed.

While I'd agree with you that a lot of people do form their political bias that way ( as well as being "born" into one party or another ), I do think that on the whole the platform of the Republican Party attempts to give a literal and strict interpretation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights ( hence why they love guns - right to bear arms and all ).

So if we are going to condone or condemn people based on their party affiliation - we should do it based on the beliefs of the Party's platform regardless of how strictly they adhere to it. Otherwise, it would be best if we targeted our criticisms at specific people and their decisions than to carpet-bomb a whole group.

[mike sangiacomo]

Despite that I've got a serious problem with Michael Sangiacomo's article above.

The trial in question happened nearly two years ago. It's what's known as "old news." I have a hard time believing Sangiacomo's "Major Newspaper" would really "go nuts" for a story two years old

MIKE SANGIACOMO HERE:
True, the story is two years old, but the ruling of the appeals court gives it new life. Our "Major Newspaper" (16th or 17th largest in the US,since you seem skeptical) would have gotten excited about it at all phases if it was in our backyard.
Nice to see that at least one paper in Texas did follow the story, I recommend everyone follow that link the poster provided for some interesting background.
One last thing, since all my ideas suck and you're so quick to trash everyone else's suggestions, how about a few from you? You live in the town.

[carl_henderson]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

[...] the US is filled with trigger-happy moronic hicks?
[...] your country consistently makes self-centred dumb choices.
[...] stupid and hypocritical statements/actions that your country constantly performs.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you really expect to convince any Americans of the your views by hurling invective at them and their nation?

[Hdefined]

Shame on whoever out there voted a Texan into the president's chair

[carl_henderson]

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>True, the story is two years old, but the ruling of the appeals court gives it new life. Our "Major Newspaper" (16th or 17th largest in the US,since you seem skeptical) would have gotten excited about it at all phases if it was in our backyard.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am not at all skeptical about your newspaper. I'm confident it exists, that you work for it, and that it is a large paper. I was simply putting quotes around phrases I took directly from your article.

[quote]<strong>One last thing, since all my ideas suck </strong><hr></blockquote>

I never said your ideas suck. They are however two years too late to be of any practical value. The case is now in the hands of Supreme Court (should it choose to take it); public protest and media attention are likely to have zero effect on that body.

[quote]<strong>and you're so quick to trash everyone else's suggestions, how about a few from you? You live in the town.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The only idea I "trashed" was "DarthRandall's" suggestion that comics fans in the Dallas area should skip buying their comics from their local shop for a week, and buy them from Keith's instead. I pointed out that if they had subscriptions there, doing so could adversely affect their local shop's bottom line, and suggested buying some extra purchase at Keith's as an alternative.

The rest of my comments were aimed at correcting misinformation contained in a number of the replies--or tweaking posters that were rude or abusive.

As for postive suggestions, there's really very little that comics fans can do at this point. The only practical course of action remaining is to support the CBLDF--the organization that will defend Mr. Castillo should the Supreme Court choose to hear the case.

[Michael Eidson]

This whole thing makes me very angry. Support the CBLDF!!!!!!!!!!!

[John Carter of Mars]

Just thought I'd chime in with some thoughts from the merry old land of indiscriminate censorship, Canada. For some time now, Diamond has not shipped adult oriented sexual titles across the border as a result of numerous stoppages and seizures at Canada Customs. Customs has declared themselves the moral policeman of our nation, using some self created standards to judge if material is appropiate or not. Despite being dragged to court on several occasions, Custom continues to ignore the illegalites of their conduct. Here in BC, a gay and lesbian bookshop located in Vancouver (their name escapes me at this late hour) has made it their mission to whip Customs into shape, despite the financial challenges they face doing this. Bloody sad when you have to spend thousands of dollars defending your right to enjoy what you should be legally entitled to.
It's my understanding that there is no adult sexually oriented titles published in Canada do the prohibitive costs of producing material with a fairly small market.
The witch hunt for comic dealers with mature titles is strangely absurd; I can recall buying my first Hustler at the age of 16. And I highly doubt that the proprietor that sold me the fleshpot rag would ever be threatened with jail time if caught.
I guess that comic dealers are an easy target for conservative rage against the sexualization of our culture. Couple that with the decline in comic readership and we have a minority that few people care or even know about- who better to tie to the stake and pile the tinder around. :mad:

[gvalley]

Ok. I'm not American, but this is extremely worrying; when America has a cold, the world sneezes - and besides, I love my comics...
I had no idea the appeal was shot.
Can't say I have many ideas for action, either - but maybe some:

- Get the media involved. Someone who knows people like Zimmerman, get him to get people like Stern to talk about this. Not that Stern is a big favorite with the religious right, but he might reach a large subversive-minded audience who doesn't much care about comics and get them to try the product and/or at least give a damn if this thing grows. Media creates awareness.

- Someone - anyone who knows him enough to actually be able to reach him - inform Jello Biafra on this. Biafra is a grade-A American freedom fighter, who works his butt off talking to people by performing spoken word live on stage, and releasing spoken-word albums. He has a large audience with the ability to matter. And most importantly - he was once trialed for "distributing harmful matter to minors", (an insert in a "Dead Kennedys" album) - and WON the case. He has his own problems right now, but this will interest him. I'm sure.
Then - as now - the powers that be went after a small guy (Jello), a small label (Alternative Tentacles), trying to create the precedent to get them to censor the big names and companies. Don't fool yourselves for a second thinking this ends here, with some fucking porn Manga book. It may take a year, even two, it may take a month - but next time it's Oni. And then Vertigo or MAX.

- Get ready to fight. Assuming the publishers won't just bend over and open up, cancelling all adult material (in which case, hard as it may be, we might have to just stop supporting them altogether), boycott any shop which boycotts 'adult' material; support those who don't; We have the internet on our side, a prime organizational tool if used properly, and demonstrations on a very large scale can be organized at no publicity cost whatsoever. Interested publishers and the CBLDF might be talked into chipping in for helping with organized transportation if necessary.

- This is not the 50's: as has been pointed out, real porn is readily available to pretty much anyone with an internet connection and everyone knows this; Hollywood, music and the most mainstream literature (harry potter, anyone?) aren't as 'clean' as they were. The parents are much cooler than those of 50 years ago; they won't freak out by the word 'fuck'. TALK TO YOUR PARENTS. Show them comics, explain why this isn't just for kids. prove the artistic merit of the medium. They might know a thing or two about the system, and what might be done. They might know people who know people. Same goes for your teachers, college and university professors. They might be old and boring in cases, but mostly they'll be liberal thinkers, with a ferocious passion for freedom of thought and speech. If you can't convince people of comics' specific merit - explain that censorship is censorship, and that once this medium (which doesn't have the financial ability to really protect itself against the damn CHURCH) falls over - movies, literature and TV are gonna be censored next and on an even larger scale than now.

- Start forming a tighter community on the net. Get over petty squabbling and try creating a situation in which if shit goes down - as it will - people will trust you enough to organize something with you. We use the word community to describe a disparate bunch of consumers; about damn time we actually created a COMMUNITY. If you have a place like this here - make DAMN sure you know about these trials in advance... and report on it in full detail, giving time to people to organise a demonstration around there. The Dorans, Bradys and Kevin Smiths of the world are community leaders - because we made the such by coming to these places for information and discussion - and I hope they will use their status wisely and responsibly.

- if you're on speaking terms with certain media-savvy pros in positions of power within the industry... 'jokingly' suggest that the comic industry sue the SHIT out of the state of Texas.

I guess what I'm saying is, for now, create as much awareness as possible, from any concievable angle. If people at large think that comics are for kids, many of them wouldn't mind them being censored. This has to be about perception and free speech. I'm not American, but I know enough to know that Americans will defend their rights if they'll be reminded of them.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by carl_henderson:
<strong>Do you really expect to convince any Americans of the your views by hurling invective at them and their nation?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jesus I love a country full of wimpy babies like you.

Waaah fucking Waaa.

If any of you were half as principled as you think you are, you would have the balls to stand up and proclaim: "This is not what I believe in. I am glad as an American that we have a seasoned organization like the CBLDF to fight these wrongs and I will donate to demonstrate my outrage!" Or you could write a letter to the various levels of your government expressing your distain for these methods of enforcement.

Instead you pussy out and act like a baby. "Oh he's making fun of me. Waaaah."

You guys are so lucky that there are actually people who are willing to DO something about the injustices purpetrated on the comic book community.

Please sit on your ass and cry some more but pretend you are a patriotic American by doing nothing but whining. HOWEVER you can't realy get upset when someone points out what a pussy you are.

Heh heh but now you need someone to hold your hand to make a change in your own country? How utterly laughable. Now you need your own ego flattered to get you to get off your ass and do something to better your own country? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

[Michael Eidson]

What country are you from, BLACKBRIAR? Just curious.

It seems like you are the only one here that is starting shit. The rest of us are just concerned that an innocent man is in prison and are trying to do something about it. Why don't you take your hatred and antagonism elsewhere? It's obvious you'd much rather mock people than help the cause.

[heart]

And this happen in the "land of the free"...
I'm not trying do do any US-bashing, but in Belgium, all those comics ( adult, porn, whatever ) are displayed freely next to the Marvel or DC comics.
The only precaution they take is that the hard-porn comics are wrapped in regular comics bags.
Just to say it can be done differently

give to the CBLDF please, we need those guys...

[bravelybravesirrobin]

Actually if zimmerman did get this out on stern it might have some effect. Not on this case sure but if enough people get pissed off about this result and get their voice out there the courts will realise the wrong they've committed and wil be less likely to do it again.

Hell i'll even buy a Zimmerman comic.

What exactly was jesus charged with though? the Dallas article seems to indicate he was charged with selling obscene material. and if this is true i don't understand why selling obscene material is illegal but producign it or shipping it to the U.S. for sale is not. the more i try to understand just what this guy was convicted of the more questions i have? What the fuck is up with the laws in America.

and on a lighter note Mike, you didn't kick us ou becuase you wanted freedom, you pretty much had the same level of freedom before you kicked us out as afterwards. In fact in this day and age i would say America's laws are far stricter and more intensively imposed than in England. You kicked us out because you wanted less tax and the right to make laws that applied to your own people not living with laws that were made by someone who lived thousands of miles away adn had probably never visited America.

[Erik K]

:rolleyes:

On a board talking about the ignorance of a jury (one that decided comics were just for kids), has no one noticed the ignorance of the Texas-bashers here? Frankly, some of you are guilty of the same ignorance.

I'm not going to take issue with some of the examples of "Why Texas is bad", but just because some bad things happened in Texas doesn't make it a bad state, any more that the existence of Archie comic books make comics exclusively for kids.

Hell, I live in Austin, one of the more progressive, liberal and funky towns I've had the pleasure of knowing. Nader got a huge chunk of the 2000 vote here. Some of the best musicians and writers around live here. Many of the computer games you love were produced at least in part here (Deus Ex springs to mind, but there are many, many others).

I've lived all over, including Munich, London and the great hulking beast that is the Washington, DC sprawl. I've found the people and culture in Austin to be the most suitable to me. Oh, and you almost never see cowboy hats, cowboy boots, or longhorn steers wandering the streets. The local uniform is shorts and t-shirts, often with liberal slogans on them.

But I fear that the jury of this board would declare me to be insane (he likes living in Texas!! *gasp*) based on preconceived notions and an ignorance of the complete facts. Gee, didn't that jury in East Dallas behave that way... ?

[MADNER]

I first heard about this case a couple of months before I moved to the Dallas area. I even used it as an example during a training excercise at work. Now, exactly 3 years later I read that this is still going on? To say I am outraged is putting it mildly. East Dallas is a bit of a haul for me but from now on Keith's comics is where I will be getting my comics and trades. :mad:

[the_conqueror]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

Jesus I love a country full of wimpy babies like you.

Waaah fucking Waaa.

If any of you were half as principled as you think you are, you would have the balls to stand up and proclaim: "This is not what I believe in. I am glad as an American that we have a seasoned organization like the CBLDF to fight these wrongs and I will donate to demonstrate my outrage!" Or you could write a letter to the various levels of your government expressing your distain for these methods of enforcement.

Instead you pussy out and act like a baby. "Oh he's making fun of me. Waaaah."

</strong><hr></blockquote>

If we're a bunch of "wimpy babies" (ooh, your rhetoric is amazing), then why is it we'd level your pathetic country in less than a week?

[Heroic Images]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>
We’ve all seen enough Japanese X-rated stuff to know the drill: lots of women in short, pleated skirts and lots of sex, often by demons with tails that resemble penises.

....

But I can’t help feeling that something very special was trampled on the streets of East Dallas that day.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

By "very special", do you mean the ability to look at pictures of penis-tailed demons screwing Japanese chicks?

Hmmm. I guess I'll just have to chalk this one up to "different strokes..." Don't get me wrong -- the Comic Book Guy was set up, and as long as it's not child porn in any way, he was going about it correctly. But let's not get carried away with the "my rights have been trampled on!" garbage when you're talking about comic jack-off books. It's not exactly cause to write your Congressman.

Unless y'all are really hard-up for a hard-on.

Good grief.

Davey

[The Good Doctor]

There are three things that come readily to mind, I think a couple of them have been brought up already:

1. Contact the media

This is something we can all do. Write letters specifically to the newspaper in Jesus' area informing them of what happened, and informing them that we are part of a larger community of support that Jesus has access to.

2. Donate money to the CBLDF.

Enough said.

3. Contact Jesus' political representatives at the state, and federal level.

In this case we can't necessarily alter what happened to Jesus, but we need to send a signal to people in and out of Texas that comic book dealers are protected. So this may simply consist of sending letters to them expressing disappointment in Jesus' treatment. But it may (depending on their party id) entail actually donating money to their political opponents.

What is happening to Jesus is political, and is part of a larger wave of censorship. THIS is why responding politically is important.

It isn't about buying more comics from Jesus, though this would help his pockets. It's about changing the political system a person at a time to protect dealers from this type of harassment.

What do you think?

[Scout99]

[quote]Originally posted by MIKEON-LINE:
<strong>Regarding the First Amendment, and the responsible handling of the material in question:

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but why is it that, in parts of the States where the "Americana" ideology flourishes (i.e. just baout everywhere, but especially the South), many key values and aspects of the said national concept seem to be (at some times) shelved, cast aside based if the situation ticks someone off, or otherwise forgotten?

If you walked up to the prosecutor, or any of the members of that jury, and accused them of being, let's say, a "Traitor to American Values!", the chances are you'd get an earful of how patriotic they are (and maybe a punch in the jaw for daring to question their loyalty to the USA). But at the same time, they've shoved one of those values aside, because it's easier for them to be hypocrites than to just do as America's founders intended and mind their own business ('live with it!') about viewpoints (etc.) that they don't agree with.

Free speech? Sure - you're free to say, read, sell etc. anything you like, but only so long as it falls within line of what the masses think is true.

If I had money, I'd definitely donate to the CBLDF.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good question. My feelings is that the "patrotic" American is selective in thought towards the freedoms of this country. Our education system is such a joke that you have people thinking that the First Amendment is dangerous than the Second Amendment. Don't believe me? Look at our lovely Attorney General, John "I lost to a dead guy in an election" Ashcroft. He would allow the half-naked Dept of Justice statue be covered, yet wouldn't allow the FBI to do background checks on people who bought guns at gun conventions DURING A STATE OF WAR!

A half-naked statue is worse than an group of Al-Qaida thugs shooting up a shopping mall? Insane!And don't me started with the government still trying to install Internet filters in library computers in order to protect children from sexual contact. This country has become an insane asylum. Who the fuck needs Bin Laden and his bunch? Our government could destroy this country without a sweat!

Jeez! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>By "very special", do you mean the ability to look at pictures of penis-tailed demons screwing Japanese chicks?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm thinking by "very special" he means the right of an American to buy an adult comic book if he or she so wishes, as well as the right of the retailer to sell such material to an adult audience - and it seems that most people so far have understood that.

But think bigger picture - as Mike also pointed out, if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere, for essentially any comic that a politician gets a bee in their bonnet about.

MattB

[Cyko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erik K:
[QB] :rolleyes:

On a board talking about the ignorance of a jury (one that decided comics were just for kids), has no one noticed the ignorance of the Texas-bashers here? Frankly, some of you are guilty of the same ignorance.

:)

Thank sir, and I do believe they need another!

I too am from the Austin area, Manchaca to be exact. Just because this foul-up in the judicial system happened here in Texas, everyone and their grandmother declares open season on Texas. Bah. I'd like to see how you people would respond if this had happened in New York, or L.A., would you be calling them hicks as well? Doubtful.

As for the business at hand, hey, I'm all for a letter writing campaign, though honestly it would have to be a HUGE one, because let's face it,they rarely work. Pass the story on to friends who share your interests in comics and friends who are very much into the judicial system and would take the time to get their friends involved.

[mike sangiacomo]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

Yeah, this is where Sangi really let me down. He started to sound just like those unsophistocated rednecks that he was supposedly railing against.

Hmmm... No ability to critically examine history... Perhaps that's why the US is in such poor shape.</strong><hr></blockquote>

MIKE SANGIACOMO HERE:
The line was "that's why we kicked the Brits out."
IT WAS A JOKE FOR GOD'S SAKE.
Jesus, do we have to put flashing red lights lights on it?
M

[carl_henderson]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>
Jesus I love a country full of wimpy babies like you. [much deleted]
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think I understand now. You aren't actually reading what I write, nor are you interested in the issues under discussion. You are just looking for an excuse to be a bigot.

Have fun.

[Heroic Images]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>

I'm thinking by "very special" he means the right of an American to buy an adult comic book if he or she so wishes, as well as the right of the retailer to sell such material to an adult audience - and it seems that most people so far have understood that.

But think bigger picture - as Mike also pointed out, if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere, for essentially any comic that a politician gets a bee in their bonnet about.

MattB</strong><hr></blockquote>

Matt --

I got the jist of Mike's article. I'm not too concerned that "most people" agree with him or not. I think if some of you would stop and think about what's really on the line here, you wouldn't be so up-in-arms over Comic Book Guy's fate.

Has anyone on this thread even stopped to ask the details of the case? Did Comic Book Guy ask to see some age verification from the cop? All Mike's article says is that it was a "man". I've seen some pretty manly-looking 16 year-olds, and it would be sad if Texas didn't try to protect under-age kids from this stuff. Did Comic Book Guy have a history of selling this stuff to minors? What's the legal age in Texas to purchase porn? Were there any permits to sell this stuff that Comic Book Guy was lacking? And what exactly was the material that Comic Book Guy handed over the counter? Was it perfectly legit? Depictions of Penis-tailed demons-on-Japanese girls (to cite Mike's example again) hardly sound like consentual sex...

Again (and I get this a lot on comic book message boards), when it comes to discussions of morality, I'm hardly concerned if I'm following the common train of thought. All of those harping on "Adult" privileges need to start acting like grown-ups themselves, and answer the legitimate questions above. I'm all for the right to buy and sell this stuff, no matter how pathetic I personally find it to be. But don't just start throwing slurs at Texas, the U.S., or our justice system without knowing the whole story. I have a feeling it wouldn't matter how guilty Comic Book Guy is or isn't -- some people just think it's cool to bash the Man.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

Davey

[doom]

[quote]Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
<strong>

And you'd be wrong.

Granted, both of them have little regard for free speech, but there are far bigger supporters of censorship to be found out there. On the whole, one of the two major parties is far more supportive of censorship than the other, and the existence of counter-examples doesn't change that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

no, i don't think i am. i listed two people who have a well known track record of, in the case of the former, freedom of speech in music and, the latter, a decided bias against videogames being anything more racy than a mario game.

these two individuals have serious issues with entertainment media having any kind of adult content because it might taint a minor.

i think, ultimately, that's what we are here talking about.

i'm not railing against democrats, either. if i were, i'd be remiss if i didn't mention fritz hollingsworth (if i got his name right) (and diane feinstein) being completely against an individuals fair use rights because the recording industry association of america told him he should be. as far as that issue goes, i don't know where most representatives stand, although i know republican senator orin hatch of utah (easily one of the most religiously driven states) favors individual rights. of course, that's skewing off on a pretty big tangent.

and finally, my political ideologies are best summed up thusly: i'm a conservative, registered democrat who votes green whenever possible. not because i agree with them 100%, but because they are honest with where they stand on the issues.

[carl_henderson]

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
Has anyone on this thread even stopped to ask the details of the case? Did Comic Book Guy ask to see some age verification from the cop? All Mike's article says is that it was a "man".<hr></blockquote>

The police officer that purchased the comic was 53 years old--clearly an adult.

[quote]Did Comic Book Guy have a history of selling this stuff to minors?<hr></blockquote>

No. Keith's Comics has never had any such problems in the past. The adult material was kept in a box behind the counter.

[quote]What's the legal age in Texas to purchase porn?<hr></blockquote>

18--35 years younger than the vice cop who purchased the comic.

[quote]Were there any permits to sell this stuff that Comic Book Guy was lacking?<hr></blockquote>

Adult comics were less than a percent of the business of Keith's Comics. Thus, Keith's Comics wasn't required to get a Sexually Oriented Business permit.

[quote]And what exactly was the material that Comic Book Guy handed over the counter? Was it perfectly legit? Depictions of Penis-tailed demons-on-Japanese girls (to cite Mike's example again) hardly sound like consentual sex.<hr></blockquote>

Anime videos and DVDs containing the same sort of material can easily be bought in Dallas. I've never heard of someone being arrested for selling them.

[quote]I'm all for the right to buy and sell this stuff, no matter how pathetic I personally find it to be. But don't just start throwing slurs at Texas, the U.S., or our justice system without knowing the whole story.<hr></blockquote>

You clearly don't know the whole story. If you want to learn more about it, I suggest you follow the two links I posted upthread.

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>I think if some of you would stop and think about what's really on the line here, you wouldn't be so up-in-arms over Comic Book Guy's fate.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Honestly, I think a lot of people have thought about what's really on the line here, and that's precisely why they are up in arms.

The content of the book is virtually irrelevant in this case - as the jury proved. The comic was sold to an adult - that was never argued during the case, that the person Castillo sold the comic to was an adult. The jury convicted Castillo because they felt (as urged by the prosecution) that the material in the book was unsuitable - for anyone - not kids, not adults - everyone. As the CBLDF's write ups of the case explain, the jury was apparently swayed by the prosecution's arguements that comics are a medium designed for children, and as such, should not contain adult material, period.

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>Has anyone on this thread even stopped to ask the details of the case? Did Comic Book Guy ask to see some age verification from the cop?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have you? There's lots to read at teh Fund's website, as well as the articles we've written about it here. As has been reported, the case got rolling when a person in the community, apparently, someone who was seeking political office, felt concerned that the comic shop had this material inside it, and that it was "close" to a school, among other things....

From the CBLDF's reports....

<blockquote>A retailer in southern Texas contacted the Fund following the publication of a fire and brimstone letter in his town newspaper. Beginning "Be thee not deceived!" the letter attacks the comic shop for the "dynamics of deception" it employs to lure innocent children into the store.

According to the letter's author, Pokemon is the tool by which children are entrapped in a "den of iniquity" where they are exposed to comics with "unwholesome themes and exceptionally sensually alluring covers." After a lengthy tirade, the letter concludes: "Yes, they are comics, not magazines. What young child would pay a lick of attention to a magazine! But put your trash in the form of a comic book and, voila, you've got them!"

The retailer remembers this letter writer's visit to the store quite well, and the comics to which he objected were mainstream superhero titles from DC, Image, and other publishers. In a rage that the owner refused to immediately remove this "filth" from the premises, the customer attempted to convince all of the store's patrons to leave immediately.

The letter appeared in the paper shortly thereafter. Surprisingly, the same letter was reprinted again a few days later. When asked why he had printed such a venomous letter twice over the course of a week, the paper's editor claimed that it was an honest mistake. Then he printed it again.

The letter was later printed in a local PTA newsletter. The article mentioned that the store was "under investigation" by a city council woman in response to citizen complaints. At the time, the owners were unaware of any such investigation. The only complaint they had received in recent memory was from a mother outraged over the store's price for Pokémon cards. "You'll regret this," she had exclaimed, storming out of the store. "I know very important people, all I'd have to do is tell them what you're selling here."

In January, police entered the shop and arrested the 21-year-old store manager for selling a copy of Demon Beast Invasion: The Fallen #2 to an undercover police officer investigating the store. A short time later, he was arrested again for selling a another adult manga comic to a member of the PTA. Needless to say, both the PTA member and the police officer are adults, and the arresting officer even noted that the comics were segregated from the rest of the store in an enclosed "Adults Only" section. Nevertheless, the state contends that these comics are so utterly without merit that they are not even safe for adults to read. The store manager faces two counts of obscenity, which carry a maximum penalty of five years in jail and a $20,000 fine.
</blockquote>

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>All Mike's article says is that it was a "man". I've seen some pretty manly-looking 16 year-olds,</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again, the prosecution didn't make this a point in the case - the undercover cop and PTA member who came into the store were adults - if either had been minors, there would have been additional charges.

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>And what exactly was the material that Comic Book Guy handed over the counter?</strong><hr></blockquote>

All explained in the CBLDF's reports on this - the issues are named. I think this speaks to asking "the details of the case" that you implied people weren't understanding, or asking about.

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>Was it perfectly legit? Depictions of Penis-tailed demons-on-Japanese girls (to cite Mike's example again) hardly sound like consentual sex...</strong><hr></blockquote>

What constitues "legit" or "illegitimate" to you? So what if it wasn't consentual sex? The Bible has at least one (off of the top of my head) accounts of rape, not to mention Lot giving his daughters to the rape-gangs of Sodom so they spare his life - is that "legit?" Is that porn? If Castillo sold a copy of the Bible to the cop should he have been busted? Clasiical literature is peppered with accounts of rape, all described in varying amounts of detail - is that "legit?"

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>All of those harping on "Adult" privileges need to start acting like grown-ups themselves, and answer the legitimate questions above.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think I did. Again, I don't think anyone is up in arms because this means they may not be able to get the next issue of Legend of the Overfiend (that as the comic in question, by the way), but are concened about the larger picture - a jury decided that a comic book's content was not fit to be sold or bought by anyone. That right there, taken by itself is chilling - what will the next jury decide is not fit for anyone? As Mike asked - will it be some of the Eros line? Cherry? Some Vertigo stuff? A Preacher trade paperback when Custer squares off against God?

Now that the precedent has been set, and has stood on appeal, as I said before, there's nothing stopping other politicians looking to impress voters from doing the exact same thing in their own community, using this case as a template, and picking their own book that they feel is "indecent" and not fit for anyone to read.

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>I'm all for the right to buy and sell this stuff, no matter how pathetic I personally find it to be.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Great - so you'll be supporting the Fund on this one?

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>But don't just start throwing slurs at Texas, the U.S., or our justice system without knowing the whole story.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Glass houses, here Davey - all of what I mentioned above is at the Fund's website.

[quote]Originally posted by Heroic Images:
<strong>I have a feeling it wouldn't matter how guilty Comic Book Guy is or isn't -- some people just think it's cool to bash the Man.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, when the man is deciding for me what I can and can't read, and not trusting me to be the judge of that for myself, I'll be bashing him until I breathe my last.

MattB

[Alex Segura Jr.]

[quote]Originally posted by doom:
<strong>

i'd point out that tipper gore and joseph leiberman, both democrats, are two of the staunchest supporters of censorship.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's definitely not an issue that is solely partisan. For every 12 liberal democrats, there are a few highly conservative ones. In the end, any kind of censorship is wrong, and anyone, Republican or Democrat or whatever, who supports censoring media or any art, is in the wrong.

Alex

[Justin M. Campbell]

To carl_henderson: Sir, I apologize for offending you. This story really pissed me off, and when I get pissed off, I generalize. My comments were a bit too harsh, and I used isolated incidents to prove my, in hindsight, idiotic 'Texas is intolerant' argument. However, the statements you site were only ignorance on my part. I had always thought Friendly Frank's was in Texas, and I only paid attention to Fred Phelps long enough to know his message was hate and against the God he said he served, so I only thought he was Texan. My apologies to all Texans for insulting them so. However, I stand by my Texas's problems statement. But there isn't a state in the union you can't find problems with. That's not the point. The point is we're all here because we agree on something. That this ruling was unjustified and excessive. That it came about not because of bias or lack of intelligence on the part of the jury, but because Texas, like most Southern states, is of a conservative mind. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does lead to excessive punishment on that which startles that mind. Jesus Castillo acted with, honestly, more concern and consideration to the 'Mature Readers' label than most vendors I've dealt with, and he was treated unfairly and unjustly (As ToddVerBeek pointed out, legal and just are sometimes different concepts). If this case was publicized more widely, there would be a negative response (Does anyone actually like censorship? Probably not). This response would probably be sizable enough to cause an overturning of the anti-appelate ruling and the case would be appealed, and, in all likelyhood, dismissed(as I said, with Mr. Castillo's consideration to the 'mature readers' label, prosecution doesn't really have much of a leg to stand on, if the story hits the right place). The most would be a fine for not checking ID's of people buying mature readers titles.
To ToddVerBeek: You have a point, dude, but personally I agree with zoning ordinances. I don't want an adult bookstore across the street from a school.

I'm sorry I'm so long-winded, but it takes as long as it takes.

Just Me, JMC
Tex-ASSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

[amorphis]

I don't want to add to the Texas bashing thats been going on here. But I still need someone from the state where they celebrate Jesus Day as a state holiday to explain to me please...
What the FUCK is wrong with Texas? I'm not kidding...I really want to know.

[gOgIver]

Europe is not the future. It is a collection of once-great nations and cultures whose greatest accomplishments are behind them. This is a bitter pill to swallow, I'm sure. And we shouldn't think that Europe's perspective is totally irrelevant. But it does mean that we shouldn't allow the histrionics of "the Europeans" in our rearview mirror to overly distract us from the right route.

PS. Left-Wing is the worst insult you could ever be called. :cool:

[Heroic Images]

Matt --

Thanks for the detailed answers to my questions. The whole matter of the newspaper "editorial" is definitely suspect. Someone was obviously looking to make an example of this dude and his store.

And naw -- I won't be giving money the the CBLDF. Aside from taking care of my family, there are a lot of charities that take precedence over protecting comic book porn. Charities that feed the hungry around the world, those to protect the unborn, those...

Oh, never mind -- I'm hardly going to change any minds here. See you at the "soft news" threads.

Davey

[Dan20]

[quote]Originally posted by gOgIver:
<strong>Europe is not the future. It is a collection of once-great nations and cultures whose greatest accomplishments are behind them. This is a bitter pill to swallow, I'm sure. And we shouldn't think that Europe's perspective is totally irrelevant. But it does mean that we shouldn't allow the histrionics of "the Europeans" in our rearview mirror to overly distract us from the right route.

PS. Left-Wing is the worst insult you could ever be called. :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't know who you're responding to, so I may be missing something, but.....huh?

[gwangung]

Hrmmm. I do recall a thread bashing the CBDF for being parochial, self-interested idealogues trying build fiefdoms for themselves.

Wonder where those idiots are now...serving on Texas juries?

[carl_henderson]

[quote]Originally posted by amorphis:
<strong>I don't want to add to the Texas bashing thats been going on here. But I still need someone from the state where they celebrate Jesus Day as a state holiday to explain to me please</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have no clue what you are talking about. Chistmas is a state holiday in Texas (along with 49 other US states). Is that what you are refering to as "Jesus Day"? Or--like "Blackbriar"--are you just using the thread as an excuse for cheap shots and general bigotry?

[The Blue Spider]

<font color=blue>Okay, throughout half of these posts here I am getting confused.

When you guys say "Jesus" are you saying Jesus the profanity or Jesus the jailbird? For goodness' sakes get some consistency.

Or better yet, if you really feel the need to deliberately type out offensive language, let us all follow some journalistic standards and refer to the victim in question as "Castillo" or "Mr Castillo". It's just make your posts so much freaking easier to read.</font>

[amorphis]

I have no problem with Christmas i.e. Jesus' birthday. For those who don't know, there is a seperate holiday observed in Texas called Jesus Day--I suppose it's a day that all Texans act and dress like Jesus. This fact may confuse those who were under the impression that church and state were seperate institutions. What I'm trying to say is that Texas seems like a wacky place where the constitution doesn't mean much except for the gun owners. Jesus Day-it sounds silly and I wish I were joking. What's up Texas?

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>What can we do to make sure this doesn’t happen again?

There is space provided below for any and all suggestions. Let’s hear ‘em.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's not that much any individual can do to make sure this doesn't happen again. But collectively, there's this wonderful thing called the vote, that's our right as citizens. If the majority of votes go towards officials who turn a blind eye to (or even encourage) crackdowns like this, concerned voters need to work to change the system from within.

Much, much easier said than done, especially in places like Texas and Florida (not coincidentally, the playgrounds of the Bush boys).

- Elayne

[Nat Gertler]

For then-Governor George Bush's proclamation of Jesus Day, see <a href="http://www.snopes.com/religion/jesusday.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/religion/jesusday.htm</a>

[JK Parkin]

[quote]Originally posted by amorphis:
[QB]For those who don't know, there is a seperate holiday observed in Texas called Jesus Day--I suppose it's a day that all Texans act and dress like Jesus. [QB]<hr></blockquote>

Ha ha ha! This is great! When is Jesus Day? I want to ask my boss if I can have it off next year. Seriously, you don't really believe such a thing exists, do you? Because it doesn't. And even though I'm not religious, I'd be more than happy to take a day off, dress like Jesus and invite my friends over for barbecue and lemonade.

Getting back to the more serious nature of the column and the issue at hand, I live in Dallas (have for most of life) and shop at Keith's on occasion. It isn't close by, but it's a great store with cool employees, which is why I stop by when I'm in the neighborhood. As we move into the holiday season and I hunt down trade paperbacks, etc. for people on my shopping list, though, I'll be sure to go there first. (I'm also considering giving CBLDF memberships this year).

Dallas is conservative, for the most part; it wasn't fun being a Democrat here on Election Day a few weeks ago (it rarely is). It would be hard to throw a rock and not hit a conservative judge down at the courthouse.

But this is also the city that elected Ron Kirk, a Black Democrat, mayor (and he carried the city in his failed attempt to become the first Black senator from Texas), so I like to think there's hope. It's a very large city, with a large population that's growing more and more diverse, both ethnically and in thought/belief (but it's got a LONG way to go).

So don't judge us all by the actions of a few. That being said, I was ashamed to be an American and a Texan after reading the jury's verdict and after the appeal; this kind of stuff shouldn't happen anywhere.

And while the case and appeal may be over (unless the Supreme Court says otherwise), Michael's column did inspire me to start a little activism yesterday. What I did:

--I emailed a link to his column and the CBLDF.com story to a few of my favorite columnists at the Dallas Morning News (they had a nice list of email links under "Contact Us" on their web site, <a href="http://www.dallasnews.com)" target="_blank">www.dallasnews.com</a>) as well as several editors (A&E, Metro and News). The link I believe Carl Henderson listed in a previous post was to the Dallas Observer, our local weekly alternative; I don't think the daily Morning News has done anything on the case (though I could be wrong).

--I emailed the same information to several DJ's in the Dallas area, particularly to the rock alternative station (there's one who has a different "cause" almost each week, from battered women's shelters to the ASPCA ... she also started a book club for alternative lit, so I thought she was a good target) and talk radio stations.

--I emailed my brother, who lives in Houston. He's a full-fledged activist; in the last few months he has been arrested in DC for protesting against the IMF/World Bank, protested against police brutality in Austin, protested in Georgia against the "Fort Benning Terrorist Camp," etc. Hey, I'm new at this activism stuff, so I thought he might have suggestions, ideas and contacts in Dallas.

--Printed off Michael's column (hope that's ok!) with plans to photocopy it later today and ask other local comic shops if they will put it out where people can pick it up.

--Started talking about it, with family, friends, etc. And their reaction has been the same kind of outrage as most of the people posting here (and they all live in Dallas, to boot).

This battle may be almost over (or at least out of our hands), but let's stay vigilant and get the word out that the verdict was wrong, if for no other reason than to keep it from happening again (even though we know it probably will, which is why you should support the CBLDF!!!).

[JK Parkin]

[quote]Originally posted by Nat Gertler:
<strong>For then-Governor George Bush's proclamation of Jesus Day, see <a href="http://www.snopes.com/religion/jesusday.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/religion/jesusday.htm</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I'll be ... my apologies for saying it didn't exist, as apparently it does. I'm going to see my boss right now to ask for it off next year ...

[Saint K]

Wow

I live in Dallas. I like Dallas.

I'm not sure about the case in question, so I will withhold any knee jerk reactions.

Mr. Henderson is pure genius. If you haven't read his posts in this thread, go back and do so now.

If anything, this thread has convinced me to vote conservative every chance I get. Many of the people opposed to the verdict seem to celebrate their gift of foul language and hateful sentiments. If that is the great thing we are fighting for, I think I will cast my vote to do without.

Jesus day? Huh, never heard of it.

Did I see people attacking the president above because someone couldn't sell a comic that likely depicted a young girl being raped by some sort of penis tailed demon? Thats wierd.

Parent's now are "cooler" because they don't police the material their kids read? And here I was hoping I was cool.......

Angry, over-aggressive liberals who feel the need to angrily defend someones right to sell pornography are starting to scare this country. Many people's priorities changed after the 11th. Skip the CBDF and donate to people here and around the world who are hurting and in need.

Where is the love?

K

[Clem Snide]

It's a purely malicious prosecution and reminiscent of the 1964 Studio Z bust, when Frank Zappa was asked to make a porno tape "for the boys at the Lodge", then busted when he supplied the goods.

Can't fathom the market for porno comics though; as Chairman Mao said: "It's a foolish man who attempts to warm himself before a picture of a fire".

[TTOMLINS99]

[quote]Originally posted by Saint K:
<strong>Wow


If anything, this thread has convinced me to vote conservative every chance I get. Many of the people opposed to the verdict seem to celebrate their gift of foul language and hateful sentiments. If that is the great thing we are fighting for, I think I will cast my vote to do without.


K</strong><hr></blockquote>
Usually I agree with you Saint K because i'm a christian conservative to.But I draw the line on saying people can't buy what they want and if they keep the comics behind the counter they should be protected by the law.Granted we would both agree we would not want to see this stuff in the latest issue of x-men but if people want to buy stuff like this and it is kept out of kids hands it should be allowed.And this decision in Texas makes me just as angry as the democratic senate saying a conservative cannot be a judge because his against abortion.both sides should be entitled to their opinion without their freedom being hindered.

[Mr. Special ED]

Instead of showing off a bunch of local Porno Mags that are OBVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED as having adult material, what stopped them from pulling out something like PREACHER or any other "MATURE READERS" line that showcased that comics do have an internal rating system? Certainly there's no LAW in place right now that says that comics should be sold only to a certain set regarding their "label", but if the prevalant prejudice was that comics are meant for kids, and this material was being sold to kids or accesible for children, then showing this could have possibly helped to bring some legitimacy that there is a strong adult base in this field.

::shrugs::

[GPM]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

Jesus I love a country full of wimpy babies like you.

Instead you pussy out and act like a baby. "Oh he's making fun of me. Waaaah."

people who are willing to DO something about the injustices purpetrated on the comic book community.

Please sit on your ass and cry some more but pretend you are a patriotic American by doing nothing but whining. HOWEVER you can't realy get upset when someone points out what a pussy you are.

Heh heh but now you need someone to hold your hand to make a change in your own country? How utterly laughable. Now you need your own ego flattered to get you to get off your ass and do something to better your own country? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey buddy, I give to the CBLDF on a regular basis and I think you are a coward. You have yet to name what country you are from or who you are, yet you have the "balls" to hurl insults in anonymity. Way to show how courageous you are and how principled you are! How about giving us a list of your credentials proving what a paragon of virtue you are and how you have single-handedly changed your unknown homeland into a paradise not seen since Eden.

So coward, do you have the testicular fortitude to come forth or not?

[westheoperative]

[quote]Originally posted by amorphis:
<strong>I have no problem with Christmas i.e. Jesus' birthday. For those who don't know, there is a seperate holiday observed in Texas called Jesus Day--I suppose it's a day that all Texans act and dress like Jesus.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've spent my entire adult life (up until 6 weeks ago) living in Dallas, and I have NEVER heard of anything called "Jesus Day." That's the dumbest thing, I've ever come across...just the notion is pathetic and stupid.

I don't deny that this "holiday" might take place somewhere in Texas (we are as large as most countries afterall), but do you really believe that in a huge metropolis, like the Dallas/Fort Worth area, there's really a "holiday" like that?!?!?! Give me a fuckin break.

I know Jesus (pronounced Hey-Sus, the Comic Guy in question) and I've shopped at Keith's for a few years after getting back into comics. I've also followed this case very closely...this was an isolated incident upon the part of some vindictive local "politicians" to discredit a comic book store. Jesus cannot even talk about the case in question, but when he's asked about it he grimaces, thanks you for your interest, gives you a prepared statement explaining the case, and providing you with information on how to help the cause.

Keith's has since moved from the location near the school, to about 3 blocks away (in Texas a block is about a half mile). They moved because they building owners sold out to make way for a drug store, but I also believe they are happy to be away from the nearby school.

I've fought local government in my community for a number of years because of an out-dated "Public Dancing Statute" that exists in Dallas, and has since the 50's. I know the up-hill fight that Jesus faces and I suggest each and everyone of you donate to the CBLDF if you truely wish to help the situation.

On the other hand, a lot of you just want a platform to bitch about Americans and Texans. For those of you doing such...piss off.

Wes

[Scout99]

[quote]Originally posted by Saint K:
<strong>Wow

I live in Dallas. I like Dallas.

I'm not sure about the case in question, so I will withhold any knee jerk reactions.

Mr. Henderson is pure genius. If you haven't read his posts in this thread, go back and do so now.

If anything, this thread has convinced me to vote conservative every chance I get. Many of the people opposed to the verdict seem to celebrate their gift of foul language and hateful sentiments. If that is the great thing we are fighting for, I think I will cast my vote to do without.

Jesus day? Huh, never heard of it.

Did I see people attacking the president above because someone couldn't sell a comic that likely depicted a young girl being raped by some sort of penis tailed demon? Thats wierd.

Parent's now are "cooler" because they don't police the material their kids read? And here I was hoping I was cool.......

Angry, over-aggressive liberals who feel the need to angrily defend someones right to sell pornography are starting to scare this country. Many people's priorities changed after the 11th. Skip the CBDF and donate to people here and around the world who are hurting and in need.

Where is the love?

K</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh, what country are you living in? Fascist fantasyland? :rolleyes:

Seriously, if you want to vote for conservative politicos, fine. That's your right to. But don't come crying to me if you're arrested for speaking your opinion when no one likes it, let alone selling an adults-only product to an undercover police officer under a false pretense. That fix Jesus Castillo is in could happen to any of us, black, white, Hispanic, asian, religious, atheist, liberal or conservative. Who do you think is going to defend your rights if you're in a jam like that? The Tooth Fairy?!

[Marcus Ferrell]

[quote]But don't come crying to me if you're arrested for speaking your opinion when no one likes it<hr></blockquote>Where are you living? Socialist Fantasy Land?

I won't expound too much on what Mr. Henderson has already said, because he's said enough for me. However, instead of trying to insult Texans/Christians/Republicans, try forming a logical argument for or against the case.

[quote]But I still need someone from the state where they celebrate Jesus Day as a state holiday to explain to me please...<hr></blockquote>Check your facts. There are laws on every state's books that are illogical and stupid. The same goes for various celebration days. Nobody in Texas celebrates this day. Next time, ask before assuming.

[quote]Shame on whoever out there voted a Texan into the president's chair<hr></blockquote>Yes, shame on anyone who cared enough to vote and participate in our electoral process. Shame, shame.

I'm absolutely sick of people who worship at the alter of stereotypes, although unavoidable as it may be. Yes, they make for good jokes, but in the end it proves useless in debate. Instead of assuming that Californians are all raving, fanatical Socialists or Communists, or that all Floridian voters can't punch a hole, or that New Yorkers can't spit out a sentence without the word "fuck," try investigating the facts.

[carl_henderson]

[quote]Originally posted by amorphis:
<strong>I have no problem with Christmas i.e. Jesus' birthday. For those who don't know, there is a seperate holiday observed in Texas called Jesus Day--I suppose it's a day that all Texans act and dress like Jesus.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is no such official state holiday in Texas. I've lived here for 39 years, and I've never heard of any such thing. I've never seen anyone getting a day off for "Jesus Day," nor have I ever seen any celebrations of "Jesus Day."

Now it is possible that a governer may have signed some sort of proclamation about a "Jesus Day," but that no more makes it a state holiday than any of the other myriad of silly and legally moot proclamations signed by governers everywhere.

But--if it makes you feel better, please go on believing that comics censorship is something that only happens in Texas. Feel free to believe that it can't happen in whatever "enlightened and progressive" community you live in, and if we could just get those nutty Texans in line there would be no censorship problems at all...

[Scout99]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But don't come crying to me if you're arrested for speaking your opinion when no one likes it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where are you living? Socialist Fantasy Land?
I won't expound too much on what Mr. Henderson has already said, because he's said enough for me. However, instead of trying to insult Texans/Christians/Republicans, try forming a logical argument for or against the case.

Marcus, I wasn't "trying" to insult Texans/Christians/Republicans. I was pointing out the fact that some people have a snotty, devil-may-care attitude when some guy gets busted for a dopey charge. If saint_K wants his op, fine. So can I. So can you. Because this is supposed a democracy, not some theocratic shithill. If people wish to be decent, fine. They don't have to convert everyone else. That goes double for the "immoral" sect. Otherwise, we run the risk of becoming the bad guys. :cool:

[Marcus Ferrell]

[quote]I was pointing out the fact that some people have a snotty, devil-may-care attitude when some guy gets busted for a dopey charge.<hr></blockquote>Alright, well then instead of invoking a comparison fo fascism, just say that.

[carl_henderson]

[quote]Originally posted by Saint K:
Mr. Henderson is pure genius. If you haven't read his posts in this thread, go back and do so now.<hr></blockquote>

While I appreciate the compliment, I just want to make sure you understand I do disagree with you on the core issue, here. If an adult wants to purchase and read "tentacle porn" or any other type of adults-only material, I'm squarely in favor of their right to do so.

I believe the 1st amendment protects all speech, whether socially acceptible or not. And that includes tentacle porn, cigarette ads, hate speech, political "issue" ads, pornography on the web, etc.

[Just a guy]

Jesus recieved a shaft the size of the state he lives in. While it is possible that due to the aforementioned zoning conditions may have made this technicallya crime, the way it was handled was deplorable, and reflects the extreme biases that often prevail in this nation's court system.

However...

The outcry the comic community has sent might be handled in a different way. Do you want to know why the "outsiders" aren't going to have any mercy on comic writers, artists, sellers, and the like when we find ourselves in court? Because they see us as nothing more than loudmothed, wiseass bastards (Thank you God, for my American right to swear when needed,) who can't deal with the real world, escaping into 4-color print fantasies and gathering useless facts to prove we're better than them. I mean, what average American hasn't laughed their butt off at The Simpson's Comic Book Guy, saying "They're just like that!!!! When we get outraged at what we rightly should, but can only resort to name-calling and label-placing worthy of Clerk's Randall, we perpetuate that stereotype, inciting them to such witty lines as "Hey, move out of mom's basement, and then we'll talk." (As you can see, I've suffered these slings already.)

What this situation needs is a carefully thought-out, calm, and strong response if we ever want to get Jesus' case to the Supreme Court. The usual comic reader is a smart SOB, make no mistake. While we're offering our monetary help to the CBLDF, why don't we put some of our well-earned trivia knowledge to use in looking for precedents, decisions, and statutes that could be of use to the Defense, and try to prove that we DO know what we're talking about! I don;t know about you guys and gals, but I'm sick and tired of being stereotyped and ignored. If these people are looking for smooth, well-spoken, and knowledgeable individuals who are ready to stand for what this country graciously allows us. Represent, guys.

A Guy

[Scott Senay]

Am I the only one that finds it funny that someone bought porn of Jesus? That could be a comic in it self.

[dollman]

This case confirms to me, that a trial by jury is basically entrusting the case to a bunch of idiots. Which is great if you're convicted of a murder charge, chances are you can get off free by playing on the ignorance of the jurors. But juries tend to be ignorant when asked to decide on matters of philosophical and constitutional freedoms, as proven by this case.

Just one question? Who paid the legal fees for Mr. Castillo? Was it the CBLDF? If it was, might I suggest the CBLDF raise enough funds to hire a high profile lawyer, say a Johnny Cochran, to take on this case? Clearly Castillo's current lawyer was savvy enough to get this case thrown out of court.

[Saint K]

Once again, I don't know the facts of the case and I wasn't there but for the record my initial knee jerk response would be to go after the judge, jury etc. I believe in the importance of free speech. And if given the opportunity tomorrow, I wouldn't silence anyone.

My point wasn't to say that Mr. Jesus got what he deserved etc. My point was to say that the people screaming for justice on this board tend to be so nasty and hateful that it makes me consider who's side I'm on. My post was sarcasm at best, failed sarcasm at most. God gave free speech, freedom to make decisions, freedom period. Who am I to question it?

On a side note, sometimes the arts community seems to think that freedom of speech means "What is right for me, is right" and their seems to be an attempt to use free speech to cancel out right and wrong and create personal morality instead of a absolute morality. Am I off base? *grin*

Thanks for your time.

[Pariah]

To Saint K...

AMEN Brother!

[Just a guy]

If we aren't thiking like Saint K, and saying that "What's right for me is right", how does that make us any different than the more fundamentalist types that all of you are making fun of? Eh.

Go K

[James T]

[quote]Originally posted by Saint K:
<strong>Once again, I don't know the facts of the case and I wasn't there but for the record my initial knee jerk response would be to go after the judge, jury etc. I believe in the importance of free speech. And if given the opportunity tomorrow, I wouldn't silence anyone.

My point wasn't to say that Mr. Jesus got what he deserved etc. My point was to say that the people screaming for justice on this board tend to be so nasty and hateful that it makes me consider who's side I'm on. My post was sarcasm at best, failed sarcasm at most. God gave free speech, freedom to make decisions, freedom period. Who am I to question it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Seems to me god didn't give us anything but ourselves (if that); we have to fight tooth and nail for every inch of freedom that we have, god or no god, and it's generally the ones who claim to be his minions who are the ones who must be fought.

[quote]<strong>On a side note, sometimes the arts community seems to think that freedom of speech means "What is right for me, is right" and their seems to be an attempt to use free speech to cancel out right and wrong and create personal morality instead of a absolute morality.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I suspect it's not so much 'personal morality' as it is 'common fucking sense' (behold, the Dread Forbidden Word of Dread!!! Marvel as the usage of it completely fails to affect anything at all, except to provide some nicely vehement emphasis for some of the words surrounding it!). Personally, I don't feel I should be press-ganged by my country into fearing a possible* giant magical Santa Claus in the clouds who'll send me to hell if I wish to have sex with someone of my own gender**. Good thing I live in Australia then - in my experience, our gov't generally minds its own business in such matters.

*(ha!)

**(or if I wish to shave, or wear clothing of two or more fabrics, eat bacon, come into contact with a woman within two weeks of her having given birth... hmm, it goes on like this...)

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by GPM:
<strong>Hey buddy, I give to the CBLDF on a regular basis and I think you are a coward. You have yet to name what country you are from or who you are, yet you have the "balls" to hurl insults in anonymity. Way to show how courageous you are and how principled you are! How about giving us a list of your credentials proving what a paragon of virtue you are and how you have single-handedly changed your unknown homeland into a paradise not seen since Eden.

So coward, do you have the testicular fortitude to come forth or not?</strong><hr></blockquote>

One I am glad you at least have the balls to DO SOMETHING and actually donate to the CBLDF. None of my other troglodite detractors even had the balls to do that (i.e., put their money where there their whining is).

Second, my name is George Bartokamous. Does that change anything? Nope.

I live in heaven. Is that the only place that I can live and desparage the wondrous US of A? Completely ridiculous. You Americans know so little about the rest of the world it doesn't matter where I live I doubt you have any notion of what it would be like to live anywhere outside of propagandaland. It is completely missing the point of what I have been saying to request where I live. You are only doing that so you can try to knock where I live like a three year old child would do. You are supposed to do some introspection here. Wow: the USA bombing the shit out of the poorest country in the world makes more sense now. Are you all really this childish?

And note, in my previous post I even conceded that I was not perfect. I never will claim to be perfect. See: humility. That is one thing most Americans don't have. We hear all of the flag waving but how many of you lazy bastards simply buy into your own hype AND DO NOTHING?

You are the only Blackbriar detractor who actually donated to the CBLDF. THE ONLY ONE. Yeah "land of the free" --to be lazy and petulant.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by the_conqueror:
<strong>

If we're a bunch of "wimpy babies" (ooh, your rhetoric is amazing), then why is it we'd level your pathetic country in less than a week?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I love yahoos like this. Get back in the truck with the other hicks, Zeke.

The US is so tough, it bombs the shit out of the poorest country in the world and morons like you think you are macho. Nice...

Wow, I bet the rest of you Americans feel proud.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>

MIKE SANGIACOMO HERE:
The line was "that's why we kicked the Brits out."
IT WAS A JOKE FOR GOD'S SAKE.
Jesus, do we have to put flashing red lights lights on it?
M</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, but you need to make your attempts at "humor" match the tone of your article. You can't write an article decrying censorship and smallminded entrapment and then use that ignorant mindset to support your argument.

I am not trying to get on your case, your columns are usually quite good to read.

[James T]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

I love yahoos like this. Get back in the truck with the other hicks, Zeke.

The US is so tough, it bombs the shit out of the poorest country in the world and morons like you think you are macho. Nice...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's pretty rich coming from the one calling them 'wimpy babies' simply because a few readers rightfully criticise you for spewing your crowningly childish shit on their boards...

[NightwingDAM]

I don't think things can be changed by hurling insults and accusations at each other. It doesn't seem to me to be the way to enlightenment. Everyone is entitled to opinions, and all opinions have merit and worth. think this a great and interesting forum, and I enjoy coming to this site everyday.
David Michaels

[Erik K]

[quote] Everyone is entitled to opinions, and all opinions have merit and worth.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, I'm with Harlan Ellison on this sort of thing. He said something along the lines of "everyone is entitled to their informed and considered opinion". Too many people have opinions that they have given less thought to than what they had for breakfast this morning. And they spout them and defend them to the death.

Oh, and to Saint K. In the end, this should boil down to the constitution, and more specifically the first ammendment (read your bill of rights carefully, folks, it's ever so important). I don't see the word morality in there, and I especially don't see any mention of your own personal sense of morality.

And, thank God, the constitution never says that everyone is entitled to their opinion (Jefferson was a much deeper thinker than that). But it does defend their right to state those opinions, should they wish. And we should never take that for granted.

[Ed Cunard]

If it's activism we want...

I don't know how far people tend to read message board threads. They typically end within a few days of the original article, if I'm not mistaken... but here are some possible ideas for supporting the CBLDF.

1. Everyone donates $1. Make it an industry-wide effort. The top selling comic these days pulls in about 300,000 readers, if I'm not mistaken - and I may well be. That's $300,000 if every reader of that comic would donate (which would be a difficult achievement, but look at how Free Comic Book Day worked out).

2. Alert the watch dogs of the media. Someone mentioned this earlier. Public outcry has had affected legal discourse before. Of course, the public does still have the opinion that comics are meant for children and "misguided adults". But the ACLU is a great resource when applied correctly - they'll even defend free speech they don't agree with because of their core ideology.

I can't say that I'm too familiar with this case - I'm fairly ignorant in that regard. But it would be a shame if this kind of "censorship" should prevail (it's not technically censorship - that would bar the creation and publication of such a title, as opposed to selling it).

[Scout99]

[quote]Originally posted by Just a guy:
<strong>Jesus recieved a shaft the size of the state he lives in. While it is possible that due to the aforementioned zoning conditions may have made this technicallya crime, the way it was handled was deplorable, and reflects the extreme biases that often prevail in this nation's court system.

However...

The outcry the comic community has sent might be handled in a different way. Do you want to know why the "outsiders" aren't going to have any mercy on comic writers, artists, sellers, and the like when we find ourselves in court? Because they see us as nothing more than loudmothed, wiseass bastards (Thank you God, for my American right to swear when needed,) who can't deal with the real world, escaping into 4-color print fantasies and gathering useless facts to prove we're better than them. I mean, what average American hasn't laughed their butt off at The Simpson's Comic Book Guy, saying "They're just like that!!!! When we get outraged at what we rightly should, but can only resort to name-calling and label-placing worthy of Clerk's Randall, we perpetuate that stereotype, inciting them to such witty lines as "Hey, move out of mom's basement, and then we'll talk." (As you can see, I've suffered these slings already.)

What this situation needs is a carefully thought-out, calm, and strong response if we ever want to get Jesus' case to the Supreme Court. The usual comic reader is a smart SOB, make no mistake. While we're offering our monetary help to the CBLDF, why don't we put some of our well-earned trivia knowledge to use in looking for precedents, decisions, and statutes that could be of use to the Defense, and try to prove that we DO know what we're talking about! I don;t know about you guys and gals, but I'm sick and tired of being stereotyped and ignored. If these people are looking for smooth, well-spoken, and knowledgeable individuals who are ready to stand for what this country graciously allows us. Represent, guys.

A Guy</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good advise, JAG (bad pun, I know!).
:)

[dollman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scout99:
[QB]

"What this situation needs is a carefully thought-out, calm, and strong response if we ever want to get Jesus' case to the Supreme Court. The usual comic reader is a smart SOB, make no mistake. While we're offering our monetary help to the CBLDF, why don't we put some of our well-earned trivia knowledge to use in looking for precedents, decisions, and statutes that could be of use to the Defense, and try to prove that we DO know what we're talking about! I don;t know about you guys and gals, but I'm sick and tired of being stereotyped and ignored. If these people are looking for smooth, well-spoken, and knowledgeable individuals who are ready to stand for what this country graciously allows us. Represent, guys.

A Guy"

Bravo Guy!!! I'm not sure how the thread turned into a xenophobic shouting match between Blackbriar and others, nor do I care as it detracts from the real issue. The real issue is getting this case to the supreme court so Jesus can have his name clear, and so that we can continue to enjoy our hobby without some dumbass, ill-informed Texan infringing our rights to do so. I'm going to contribute to CBLDF, which is the very minimal I can do as I'm not an American either. However, this case should transcend all nationalities, so let's keep the patriotic rhetoric to a minimum.

By the way, is anyone else disturbed that the good ole Texans went after a responsible shopowner, yet have no qualms that their kids are sucking up a vile video game like Grand Theft Auto?

[GPM]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

One I am glad you at least have the balls to DO SOMETHING and actually donate to the CBLDF. None of my other troglodite detractors even had the balls to do that (i.e., put their money where there their whining is).

Second, my name is George Bartokamous. Does that change anything? Nope.

I live in heaven. Is that the only place that I can live and desparage the wondrous US of A? Completely ridiculous. You Americans know so little about the rest of the world it doesn't matter where I live I doubt you have any notion of what it would be like to live anywhere outside of propagandaland. It is completely missing the point of what I have been saying to request where I live. You are only doing that so you can try to knock where I live like a three year old child would do. You are supposed to do some introspection here. Wow: the USA bombing the shit out of the poorest country in the world makes more sense now. Are you all really this childish?

And note, in my previous post I even conceded that I was not perfect. I never will claim to be perfect. See: humility. That is one thing most Americans don't have. We hear all of the flag waving but how many of you lazy bastards simply buy into your own hype AND DO NOTHING?

You are the only Blackbriar detractor who actually donated to the CBLDF. THE ONLY ONE. Yeah "land of the free" --to be lazy and petulant.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I never said our country was perfect nor did I say that I am and I did not vote for the current administration of our government. I never said that I support all of our international policies. Why do you assume that if our government does something, we all agree with it? Can I assume that you agree with everything that your government does? You assume I was asking where you were from to insult you. I did not. I was curious where you were from because you seem to believe you come from a place that is better than here, that apparently is pretty close to perfection judging from your tone. I'm not sure where your venomous hatred comes from if you live in such a place. I assume that Americans did something terrible to you to cause such hatred. I'm sorry if that is the case and you didn't deserve it.

Have you lived here in the past to know what an evil and reprehensible place this is? I can't say how life is in your country unless I've lived there really, so I'm curious if you've spent time here or are you listening to your own government's propoganda?

Are you active in changing circumstances in your own homeland or do you just sit and type on the internet raging at people you don't like?

Since you you won't tell me where you live, can you tell me what type of government you have? Democracy? Republic? Monarchy?

As to your humility, it seems to be of the false kind. You claim to possess it, yet you then claim to be better than others with intense hatred to people you believe are lesser than you.

[westheoperative]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>We hear all of the flag waving but how many of you lazy bastards simply buy into your own hype AND DO NOTHING?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Aren't you making a very broad generalization about Americans? That's not very open-minded or civil of you. I guess I'm a moronic, backwards, gun-toting hicks since I'm from Texas?

You're an ass, and that opinion comes regardless of what country you might call home.

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>
You are the only Blackbriar detractor who actually donated to the CBLDF. THE ONLY ONE. Yeah "land of the free" --to be lazy and petulant.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As I said in my previous post, you knob-gobbling fool, I also contributed to the CBLDF. I'm sure more than a few other people have done so as well.

Wes

[NightwingDAM]

I have to agree with Erik K
I should have said that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't give them a right to unleash said opinion to others with the sole purpose to hurt and anger them. That isn't trying to make change for the better, just spreading hurt. From reading posts in the past from Blackbriar, it seems like he just wants to anger and ridicule people for their views. The thread started out talking about peoples thoughts on Jesus's rights, and turned into generalizing comments about the country one lives in. There is good and bad, and right and wrong everywhere. It's sad that it seems to be human nature to use boundaries to separate people and their beliefs instead of pulling together to make a better world.

[Login Name]

I'm of mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, if reading my X-Men books means that I have to defend this filth, then I'll do without them. I enjoy reading comics, but if I have to do without, oh well. I can find plenty of other things to do with my time. And I can certainly think of better causes to spend my money on than defending porn.

But on the other hand, the retailer really didn't break any laws. If I was on the jury, I would have to vote for dismissing the case. It would be siding with the law rather than my own personal convictions, but that's fine since I've found you can't legislate morality anyway. Back before I became a Christian and people would tell me that I couldn't read my Preacher comics or go to Marilyn Manson concerts or watch porn, it just made me want to do those things even more. But now that God has changed me and His Holy Spirit has done His work on me, I don't have any desire to do those things anymore. Nobody forced me to have a change of heart about them, and if they tried, they would of course have failed miserably (and actually people did). That's because rules and regulations can't change people but only the Gospel of Jesus Christ can change people, because that's based on Truth, and all of the philosophies and rules that we come up with are based on our limited understanding. I've heard it said that "God won't make you go where you don't want to, but He'll make you want to go there." That's 100% true.

[Falkner]

Personally I see this whole case as a GREAT opportunity for Marvel and DC to "get the word out" that comics ARE for everyone. LEAD THE WAY, GUYS! Don't waste this!

[GATES71]

Did somebody ask why the prosecutors did not go after the Japanese corporation instead of the guy who sold them? Because if you want to impose your will on the community and "protect" it from the boogey man that is pornographic comic books, it makes more sense to go after the little guy. It's easier and more effective. Reasons? Here they are:
1) The Japanese Comic company is a foreign company. And it might be part of a quite sizable corporation. This would make it hard to go after in a legal sense, assuming it even can be done. I doubt a podunk prosecutor in a podunk Texas town has the juristiction to file charges against a multi-national corporation. Even if he did, he would probably face a company with deep pockets and a team of corporate lawyers that would be able to tie the case up for years. This would do nothing for the prosecutor's crusade against porn.
2) Suing the person who sold it is much easier. If it wasn't for the CBLDF, I doubt they would even be able to fight these charges. I know that I would not be able to afford to. I doubt that if you work for a comic book store that you would be able to keep a lawyer on retainer. Or even be able to afford one when you needed one. And the lawyer Jesus got probably couldn't hold the briefcase of any corporate lawyer. And notice they went after the employee, not the store. Not that it would matter. Nobody sells comics to get rich. A $20,000 fine would be equally damaging to thr store as it would to the individual.
3) And by keeping it local, it suits the cause better from a publicity angle. I imagine this case made news in the local papers. How many parents stopped their kids from buying comics there because of this? I would hope that not a lot would but I imagine many did. It doesn't matter in the parent's eyes that porn was sold to an adult. And in today's economy, anything that causes the loss of business is nothing to be sneezed at. So the prosectors have succeeded in creating a climate of fear where retailers face a hostile environment in which to sell their products. Good for them. I bet retailers in Texas are thinking twice about the products they sell. And that is a Catch-22. It's playing roulette. Which comic will the censors hit upon next? You can make an argument for and against almost every comic on the market today about whether it's appropriate or not. Where will it end?

You've got to love Texas, mired in the past. Back when the Beav never talked back to Ward, when Elvis was controversial, and when Mickey Mouse and Richie Rich were all that comics were about. Too bad that that idealized world isn't the one we live in today. No matter how they try to force it down our throats they aren't going to change that fact. I hope that they realize that soon.

I've got to go. I'm all ranted out and I've got a contribution to the CBLDF to make.

Gates

[GPM]

[quote]Originally posted by GATES71:
<strong>Did somebody ask why the prosecutors did not go after the Japanese corporation instead of the guy who sold them? Because if you want to impose your will on the community and "protect" it from the boogey man that is pornographic comic books, it makes more sense to go after the little guy. It's easier and more effective. Reasons? Here they are:
1) The Japanese Comic company is a foreign company. And it might be part of a quite sizable corporation. This would make it hard to go after in a legal sense, assuming it even can be done. I doubt a podunk prosecutor in a podunk Texas town has the juristiction to file charges against a multi-national corporation. Even if he did, he would probably face a company with deep pockets and a team of corporate lawyers that would be able to tie the case up for years. This would do nothing for the prosecutor's crusade against porn.


Gates</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good points except that even though the comic is Japanese, it was translated into English and distributed by an American company, Central Park Media. They could go after them, but they apparently didn't even consider it.

[westheoperative]

[quote]Originally posted by GATES71:
<strong>You've got to love Texas, mired in the past. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course, I'm sure Ashley, PA is a bastion of forward thinking, ever-prospering, people.

Whatever. I met more backwards ass rednecks in the townships near Philly than I've ever run into in Dallas or its surrounding areas.

Oh and your comment about a "podunk Texas town" is way off base. The incident happened in Dallas...a metropolitan area of more than 4 million people, stretched over a very large area. Not some "podunk" town in the middle of nowhere.

The lot of you have must have some strange mental picture of what actually goes on in large Texas cities. We don't ride around on horses, wearing snakeskin cowboy boots, and tipping our hats to everyone we see.

The entire main point of the original post was to bring Jesus' case to light within the community. Its sad that a bunch of dorked up comic readers then get it in their head to bash the whole of the US, and more specifically Texas. Grow up.

The final point is...support the CBLDF, just because it happened in Texas doesn't mean some religious/political nut isn't going to try to do it again somewhere else!

Wes

[Skywise]

I am a Dallas resident, and moreover a longtime customer of Keith's Comics, where Jesus works. I have firsthand knowledge of what a fantastic guy Jesus Castillo is, and only add that deserves to be totally exonerated of this so-called crime. The events following Jesus' arrest have made me ashamed of my city, and of my state.

I urge everyone who reads this who lives in the Dallas area to follow Mike's advice and flood the Dallas Morning News, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, KDFW Fox 4, WFAA 8, KERA 13, and all the other news outlets with letters. The Dallas Observer had an excellent story on this before Jesus' trial, but it is not enough. We cannot rest until these subjective, unfair laws and Jesus' unjust conviction are overturned.

I also want to publicly praise Keith Colvin, owner of Keith's Comics, for standing by Jesus during this time. It would have been easy to cut Jesus loose to fend for himself, but instead Keith has courageously stood beside his employee. For that, Keith, I thank you.

I also urge everyone reading this to support their local retailers, whether in Dallas or elsewhere in America.

[ParaDoxx]

Some say it may be unfair to slam all of Texas for this, however, if you look on the CBLDF website, you will see no less than 5(count 'em. 5) censorship cases involving the state of Texas. Add to that the whole dragging death of James Byrd, and some of the other stuff that happens there, and I think it is safe to say there are indeed some pretty fucked up people in that state. I've BEEN to Texas. The only state with more idiots per capita I've seen is Alabama. Not saying all Texans are idiots. But most of them I've met are.

ThIS case started as an act of revenge by a disgruntled customer who was a councilwoman upset over the price of Poke'mon cards.
They also had a case of a letter from an obvious mental patient published THREE times in a Texas paper, and an inbred cop in Corpus Christi overstepping his authority at a comic shop there: <a href="http://www.cbldf.org/pr/000317-texas.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cbldf.org/pr/000317-texas.shtml</A>

Another CBLDF case involving 'obsenity': <a href="http://www.cbldf.org/pr/991218-elfquest.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cbldf.org/pr/991218-elfquest.shtml</a>

This is also interesting, and a good statement about the CBDLFs mission.

<a href="http://www.cbldf.org/articles/archives/000032.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cbldf.org/articles/archives/000032.shtml</A>

[Dr. Doom]

I still have to see where someone has addressed the actual legal wording of the case, which Mr. Castillo clearly violated.

<a href="http://courtstuff.com/cgi-bin/as_web.exe?c05_02.ask+D+11251151" target="_blank">http://courtstuff.com/cgi-bin/as_web.exe?c05_02.ask+D+11251151</a>

The comic sold clearly

depicts or describes:

(i) patently offensive representations or descriptions of ultimate sex acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated, including sexual intercourse, sodomy, and sexual bestiality; or


If you would like to change the law, contact your legislators.

[Dr. Doom]

"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe
and that distinction is not very difficult to make."

Let's take for a moment the Castillo case.

It is obvious the majority here disagree with the arrest of, much less the conviction of Mr. Castillo for selling an obscene comic to an adult.

But beyond the initial shock, how many here have actually studied the ruling in question?

How many actually understand that, by the way the law is written, Mr. Castillo was breaking the law? The comic sold, did in fact,

depicts or describes:

(i) patently offensive representations or descriptions of ultimate sex acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated, including sexual intercourse, sodomy, and sexual bestiality; or

What is the right way to address this? If you believe the law is wrong, then take it to the legislators.

There is a reason that our Founders designed the Judiciary to be the weakest of the branches (Federalist 78) Jefferson saw that the most danger of our system would come from a Judiciary without check or balance, creating an oligarchy without appeal. Yet today, the Courts can rule however the Judge or Justice happens to "feel" without regard to the actual law in question.

The problem with this is that giving the Judiciary unchecked power because it suits you right now means that if it can Unconstitutionally swing your way, it can also Unconstitutionally swing against your way.

But guess what? At that point, since you didn't choose the right path and get the law changed by the legislative branch; because you gave the power of the legislative branch to the judiciary, you will have no voice, no method of redress because you have helped set up a Judicial system without checks or balances.

And that is wrong.

[Dr. Doom]

The man who sold him the comic book at Keith’s Comics, Jesus Castillo, was arrested on a misdemeanor charge of selling obscene material.<hr></blockquote>

Note that the charge was not "selling obscene material to a minor", but "selling obscene material".

The law is quite explicit in that it doesn't have an age exemption.

[/b]Let’s be clear here: He was not selling dirty pictures of minors, [/quote][/b]

This is an excellent point; here, even you understand that it is illegal for an adult to have dirty pictures of minors. Good example of how obsenity laws do not have an age exemption.

[quote]he was not even selling pictures, just a comic. <hr></blockquote>

Which clearly violated the law.

[quote]He didn’t sell the comic to a kid, but to an adult who happened to be a cop who went there with the specific intent to bust Castillo.<hr></blockquote>

That is his sworn duty.

[quote]At his trial the city prosecutor argued that comics, by their very nature, were meant for children. Somehow, even though this comic was never in the hands of a child, unless the police passed it around, a jury of numbskulls convicted Castillo.<hr></blockquote>

I thought the rules of the Forum said that no one was supposed to ridicule others here?

The jury did their duty; you may disagree with it, but that doesn't make them "numbskulls".

[quote]The members of the jury, who probably never heard of The Authority, Preacher, Punisher or any of the other dozens of comics clearly meant for adults, bought the argument that comics were for kids and that a dirty comic was bad. <hr></blockquote>

Actually, they probably were told the definition of obsenity by the law was depicting sexual intercourse or sodomy and then, upon seeing sexual intercourse and sodomy in the book, ruled.

[quote]Never mind that Dallas has more strip clubs per mile than any city this side of Vegas, or that anybody with five bucks or an internet hook-up can get more porn than they should shake their stick at, the citizens of Dallas desperately need to be
protected from crappy drawings of porn on paper.<hr></blockquote>

This is good that you brought this up; do those strip clubs allow people over 18 to see sexual intercourse onstage?

[quote]When I first heard of the arrest I didn’t think much of it. Surely, he would get off. But he was convicted and I was a bit concerned. Still, I figured it was a fluke that would be corrected in the appeals process.<hr></blockquote>

But, hopefully you have read the majority opinion and have seen that Mr. Castillo did, indeed break the law.

[quote]On Oct. 31, the appeals court in Dallas upheld the jury’s decision.

What the fuck is going on in Texas?

See? I can say “fuck” because we’re protected by the first amendment. In this case, when taken in context with the entire article, it fits because it demonstrated how fucking pissed off I am.<hr></blockquote>

Then change the law.

[quote]Apparently, Texas is the exception. So any readers in Texas might want to switch to the Archie homepage (www.archiecomic.com)<hr></blockquote>

Is this type of blatant labeling allowed here? I was under the belief that it wasn't.

[quote]Look, if an adult wants to buy some porn, whether it be comics or DVDs and enjoy it in the privacy of his home, that’s his or her right.

THIS IS AMERICA DAMN IT!<hr></blockquote>

And America is a nation of laws. There is no "right to privacy" nor is there a "right to possess and consume pornography".

[quote]That’s why we kicked the Brits out. Well, we didn’t exactly kick the Brits out so we could read porn, but you get the picture.<hr></blockquote>

No, we kicked the Brits out because of taxation without representation. Had we been allowed to have full representatives to the Empire, we would still be a British Colony.

[quote]Getting back to the Castillo case, the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund will file an appeal to the United States Supreme Court, but getting a case heard by the highest court in the land isn’t as easy as finding a virgin at a comic book convention, quite the opposite in fact. It’s a million-to-one shot.<hr></blockquote>

And the odds are even higher than that the Supreme Court will rule in Mr. Castillo's favor.

[quote]The court sentenced Castillo to 160 days in jail and suspended the sentence, meaning he won’t have to sit in jail. The more frightening result is the chilling effect this could have on comic dealers across the country.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, the message "obey the law"...chilling indeed!

[quote]Many shop owners are slicing the lunchmeat pretty thin as it is. Why should they risk arrest, fines and jail just to sell $50 a week worth of adult comics? <hr></blockquote>

Good question.

[quote]It’s much easier to sell the safe stuff, the WalMart approved comics that no one will get in trouble for. If the readers never see the comics, they won’t miss them.

“The scary part is that he was doing it the right way,” said Charles Brownstein, executive director of the CBLDF. <hr></blockquote>

No, literally, he wasn't. By separating sexually explicit comics even from the adult comics, he was acknowledging the sexual content in those comics.

[quote]“He had the regular comics in the front. In the back of the store, in a roped-off area, he sold the comics meant for mature readers, the Vertigo and Max lines - the mature comics published by DC and Marvel respectively. Then the sexually-oriented comics were kept behind the counter and would be brought out only when adults requested them.”<hr></blockquote>

Again the "adults" claim, when, again, there is no age exemption in the obsenity laws.

[quote]It’s clear that Castillo was making sure that kids would not see the adult comics, and that’s a good thing.<hr></blockquote>

I agree with you there.

[quote]If he could be busted and convicted than we need to face the cold hard fact that almost any comic shop owner in the country could be arrested at any moment in the same manner.<hr></blockquote>

If they are violating the local obsenity laws, then yes, you are right.

Think about this; if someone in Texas runs a red light, they could be ticketed. And almost anyone in the country who runs a red light could be ticketed in the same manner.

[quote] Let that sink in – an adult individual, working for the local police could walk into a shop, buy a comic that they deem to be not for children, and arrest the person who sold it, and put the shop itself into a world of trouble. <hr></blockquote>

Question: (please answer it) could Mr. Castillo have sold child pornography?

Why not?

This is America, isn't it?

[quote]After all, now that Castillo has been convicted, and the conviction stood upon appeal, legal precedent has been set. If the argument that comics are a children’s medium, and therefore should not, or can not contain adult material held up in Texas, it might hold up elsewhere.<hr></blockquote>

Ahh, now you see the danger in trying to legislate from the bench; one ruling in one part of the country can set precedents for other parts of the country, bypassing your legislature.

This is my argument, btw and an excellent reason why we shouldn't allow the judiciary to legislate from the bench. If you give them that power to rule in your favor, it WILL come back on you and bite you but you will have no recourse.

[quote]“We brought in three experts, the city only had the police officer and his opinion that the comic was obscene,” said Brownstein. “We had author Scott McCloud who testified that comics today are primarily made for, and bought by, adults. We had an expert who explained the comic in the context of Japanese culture. And we showed a stack of pornographic magazines that we bought at different shops within five blocks of the shop.<hr></blockquote>

Did any of them "depict sexual intercourse or sodomy"?

That IS the question at hand...

[quote]“And still we lost because the jury believed that comics are just for kids,” he said. “It’s very frustrating.”<hr></blockquote>

If that is what Charles really really believes, yes he is probably frustrated.

The jury saw the law, saw the comic and ruled accordingly.

Serious; if someone showed you a picture of a girl being sodomized by a tree and asked you: Is this sodomy?

What would you say?

Would you LIE?

What if they showed you a depiction of sexual intercourse and asked you "Is this sexual intercourse"?

Again, would you LIE?

[quote]We can all hope that the police in our town are not as peculiar as the cops in East Dallas; that the city prosecutors have better things to do and that the juries are not so ignorant.<hr></blockquote>

Again, do you know any of those jurors? Just because they didn't rule your way doesn't mean they are ignorant. In fact, I would dare say that after sitting on the jury a few days, they probably know more about the actual law than you do.

[quote]But I can’t help feeling that something very special was trampled on the streets of East Dallas that day.

I’d sure like to hear from any comic fans in Dallas, or East Dallas.<hr></blockquote>

I'm from East Texas; or do you just want to hear from comic fans who agree with you?

I.E., just because I disagree with you, will I be labeled "numbskull", etc.?

[quote]You Dallas folks should be flooding the local newspapers and television stations with letters and phone calls protesting the incredibility stupidity of the police and elected officials. I work for a major newspaper; we’d go nuts for a story like this. <hr></blockquote>

I hope you would first do some research to see if Mr. Castillo actually broke the law first before going nuts.

[quote]Call local radio stations and tell them about it, get those morning zoo guys and local talk radio stations excited about it. Just prepare what you want to say in advance, rehearse it, so you don’t stutter and stammer and sound like you’re speaking without conviction. That would make it worse. Try to sound cool.

Get some balls, get off your computers and organize a protest outside the police station and the prosecutor’s office, just make sure you get a permit first and follow the rules.<hr></blockquote>

The police and prosecutor don't pass laws; the legislators do. The proper thing to do is write your local or state Legislators.

If you protest in front of the police station or the prosecutor's office, you're basically wasting your time, unless your purpose is to get ten seconds of air time one night on the local news.

[quote]Start a whisper campaign, talk loudly in elevators about what idiots the prosecutors and the cops and what they did.

Try to find cops and lawyers who agree with you, though that might be tough.<hr></blockquote>

Because they have no power to change the law.

[quote]And reward Keith’s Comics and any other comic shop in the area that continues to sell adult comics by buying the stuff.<hr></blockquote>

But think about this; if you buy the same type of comics in this same area, you are willfully violating the law.

[quote]So let’s end this sad story with something positive:

What can we do to make sure this doesn’t happen again?

There is space provided below for any and all suggestions. Let’s hear ‘em.
<hr></blockquote>

Suggestion: Take this to the legislators. Don't waste your time ticking off cops and the D.A.'s office by protesting in front of their offices; that does no good.

Protest to your legislators.