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View Full Version : MY EPIC JOURNEY 3: FROM ONE ISSUE TO FOUR


MattBrady
05-19-2003, 09:40 AM
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Epic2.jpg" width="200" height="304" border="0" hspace="2" align="right">by Mike San Giacomo

Like that?

I split my last name into two words, San Giacomo, Italian for St. James, for my first venture into the world of comic publishing. Since most people pronounce my last name as Sanggomockomo, or stammer and stutter helplessly until I pronounce it for them, I figured I’d make it easy and spell it the way my actress cousin Laura San Giacomo does. Okay, I don’t know for sure if Laura is really my cousin, but I tell people that anyway. Go on, prove me wrong.

In last week’s column, I had come up with a script for a one-issue special starring the real-world adventures of an Everyman newspaper reporter named Jack Baxter (after two of my dogs.) His “superhero” name, slapped on him by the media which he would never call himself, would be Jack Phantom.

The original script had the character called Nowhere Man, but I changed it to Jack Phantom at the last minute. I sent the script to Marvel Assistant Editor Stephanie Moore via Federal Express on a Sunday and waited for my rejection letter.

I mean, c’mon.

Bottom line is the comic is about a dude that can become invisible. Claude Rains, Kevin Bacon and Chevy Chase have already done it. Alan Moore really pulled out the stops with the Invisible Man in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Here I was given a rare opportunity and I squandered it on a “now you see him, now you don’t” character. And making him a reporter? How self-indulgent is that?

Does anyone really care about reporters? Maybe he should have been a cop. Yeah, an invisible cop. That would be cool.

I probably should have given Marvel what it really wanted. I got the hint that they are really horny for a new version of The New Warriors, God knows why. There were dozens of obscure characters wasting away in comic limbo that I could have picked.

Ah, why worry about that. I’m sure it will get tossed on the pile.

But the ones I liked, Man-Thing, Omega the Unknown, the original Human Torch, were already done so well that my version would just plain suck by comparison.

No, no. I’m going to rise or fall on Jack Phantom.

Probably fall.

If it gets printed, imagine what a field day folks would have nit-picking plot points. A chance to criticize the critic who’s been dishing it out for 10 years! Uh, Claremont, Byrne, DeFalco, Priest, you guys know I was just joshing in those nasty reviews, right? Right?

But just a couple days later I got an e-mail from Stephanie that she really liked the concept and wanted to talk.

Get out. Really?

We chatted about the character, but first thing she said was that the name would not work. There was a character by that name in Alan Moore’s Top Ten. Geez, of course there was. How could I have forgotten that? It’s only one of my favorite books of all time. Well, there were 987 characters in Moore’s book, so I guess I could be forgiven. Did I have an alternate name?

Sure did, the first one, Nowhere Man.

She liked it.

She would check with the boys in legal.

Now, back to basics.

She, and whoever else was reading over her shoulder at Marvel, liked the character and the storyline, but said it felt cramped.

“Would you want to expand the story into four issues,” she asked nonchalantly?

Hmmmm, let me think: Would I want to take a one-issue story and expand it into four comics, thus quadrupling my pay and my chances at fame and glory?

I think I said “Yes” before the question was out of her mouth.

“Give me the weekend,” I said.

The fun thing about the conversation was that she asked if I could change certain characters and situations one way or another. I’ve been writing news for daily newspapers for...a very long time. At the newspaper, when an editor says something like that it usually means that I have to go out and track down people and reinterview them, review more documents, do a lot more spade work. The actual writing is the easiest part.

It occurred to me that for “Nowhere Man” I just have to make it up, just like the guy at the New York Times.

What a concept.

Others have said Marvel made a big deal about secrecy in the Epic project. I don’t recall being told to keep my mouth shut, but I did anyway.

But when Stephanie told me she liked the work, I told two people at the office that I actually had a chance, a tiny one, to write a comic. And a couple friends outside newspaper. And the guys at my local comic shop. And my wife,of course, who was very excited about the idea. And my sister, who said that it was nice and could I make her son a character in the cartoon. And the guy who works on my car, who gave me a funny look and responded, “Yeah, now about this alternator.”

But those were the ONLY people I told.

And a couple of guys in the business, but that was it. Really.

As soon as I got home, I booted up my old, no-name computer, called up the script and did a “save-replace” again, which automatically converted each reference from “Jack Phantom” to “Nowhere Man.”

I didn’t get up for three hours.

It came easy to separate the story into four parts because there were four natural breaks in the story.

First, we introduce the main character, Clarion reporter Jack Baxter. He’s a damn good journalist who seems to be able to get stories others can’t. He gets into places, sees things and knows facts that no one else can. He’s bright, cocky and a little creepy. Most of his fellow journalists like him, but some are suspicious and resentful of his work.

Once Jack is established, we introduce the concept that there is an invisible hero rescuing people in Central Park from nasty muggers. The paper calls him “The Nowhere Man.”

I guess I’m not going to shock anyone by revealing that Jack is the Nowhere Man.

He gets a call from his brother, who is with the Army Reserves in Kuwait and he’s worried about his life. Remember, this was being written in December-January when the war was still a scary proposition. A few other things happen leading to the end of the first issue and a decision by Jack to help his brother.

I scripted the first issue, read it over, changed it, read it, changed it...until I felt it worked.

I roughed out story synopses of the last three issues, which would change like Skrulls over coming weeks.

Basically, issue two would end with Jackie boy slipping into Baghdad and running into some nasty characters and ugly situations that tested his bravery. He didn’t do very well. Issue three is one of discovery, self-awareness and the realization that real rescues- unlike the kind seen in the movies - take a lot of planning. He would learn that he is not alone, he has allies.

His origin would be revealed in issues two or three, as would a life-defining moment from his past that influences everything that followed. Issue four is the rescue, the resolution, some pontificating in the finest Peter David style about journalism and a set-up for another mini-series. I can dream, can’t I?

It was hard to believe that I crammed all that into one issue before.

I packaged everything up and sent “Nowhere Man version 2.0 off to Marvel.

And waited.

to be continued…

<center><a href="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Nowhere_Man.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Nowhere_Man_t.jpg" width="350" height="108" border="0" alt="tentative logo design for Nowhere Man"></a></center>

(logo design by Mitchell Breitweiser)

Mike Sangiacomo, a freelance writer for Newsarama and other sources, was invited to share his experiences with pitching to Epic by Newsarama's editor, Matt Brady, in the interest of keeping readers well informed. Brady advises Newsarama readers that he is aware of the inherent conflict of interest presented by journalists working for a publisher they cover. Sangiacomo’s regular column Journey Into Comics has and will continue to be found in the Opinion/Editorial section of Newsarama. Brady has not, nor does he plan to pitch to Epic himself.

Chris Hunter
05-19-2003, 10:07 AM
I'm going to get this series, but who is the artist?

MattBrady
05-19-2003, 10:08 AM
not to put words in Mike's mouth, but keep reading...

MattB

mitchell breitweiser
05-19-2003, 11:34 AM
"It occurred to me that for “Nowhere Man” I just have to make it up, just like the guy at the New York Times."

-LOL! you crack me up, Mike.

Best,

Tom Daylight
05-19-2003, 01:24 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Chris Hunter:
<strong>I'm going to get this series, but who is the artist?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As of the original Epic announcement, MS hadn't found an artist. But I guess he might have, since that was about a month ago...

aphterburn
05-19-2003, 01:25 PM
I hate to say this, I really really do. I hate to say it because this book sounds interesting and I enjoy this column.

Marvel is being so damn cooperative because of the press this book is going to recieve/ is recieving on this site. How "open" do you think they are to other up and coming comic book writers? The WANT this book, good or bad, because the buzz it creates here will sell it. Hell, I'll buy it.

But that's not fair to everyone else trying to break in. Sorry, I had to say it.

Jun Kim
05-19-2003, 02:27 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by aphterburn:
<strong>I hate to say this, I really really do. I hate to say it because this book sounds interesting and I enjoy this column.

Marvel is being so damn cooperative because of the press this book is going to recieve/ is recieving on this site. How "open" do you think they are to other up and coming comic book writers? The WANT this book, good or bad, because the buzz it creates here will sell it. Hell, I'll buy it.

But that's not fair to everyone else trying to break in. Sorry, I had to say it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For Mike's defense in being involved in this project, I would say that your statement is very unfounded. Since I, along with Mitchell, had the priviledge to be involved in this process (though in a small way) know first hand that there is NO special favor given to Mike for him being a journalist.

In fact, although we have no idea of the process involved in the other EPIC project, it seem to have moved along a lot faster than this project.

I think it's fair to ASK if you're unsure of something... but to assume.... Reminds of me an old saying, "Don't assume... when you assume, you make an @$$ out of U and ME."

Todd VerBeek
05-19-2003, 03:05 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by aphterburn:
<strong>Marvel is being so damn cooperative because of the press this book is going to recieve/ is recieving on this site. How "open" do you think they are to other up and coming comic book writers? The WANT this book, good or bad, because the buzz it creates here will sell it. Hell, I'll buy it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree that Marvel has a tendency to take any kind of publicity they can get, and sucking up to journalists by asking them to write for Epic is a great way to get more - and better - press. And anybody with any intelligence should recognise that Mike's not writing an expose'; it's a highly subjective feature article, and it's fine for being that.

But I think Marvel are savvy enough to know that the first several Epic titles have to be fairly good, because if they smell like month-old duck eggs, people will write off Epic as crap and never give anything else under that banner a chance. First impressions tend to last.

If you want "outsiders" with some assurance of competence, comics journalists are your best option. They're people who've shown a grasp of the difference between good comics and bad comics, and have the verbal skills to produce a readable script.* Such will not be true of most of the fanfic pitches Marvel will get when the cattle call opens. If I were in their shoes, I'd apply a similar spin when the first open-submission books do come out: hand-pick them for their first-impression value, and delay the more marginal books for later... even if those get done sooner.

* I'm assuming they didn't invite me because I've been keeping such a low profile the last few years. Their mistake. {smile}

poppa_kapz
05-19-2003, 03:06 PM
Alright now no offense, but that is a small bit of bullshit you are slinging. In an "open" call to all "creators" Marvel "approached" writers in the comic news medium. That doesn't even make sense!

Are you kidding me? I mean even if you are claiming no favoritism or nepotism or just plain trying to "buy off" the media you have to admit that there is enough here for aphterburn or any other Newsarama reader to raise an eyebrow in speculation.

I mean if mike we're asked to give his "journey into marvel" story on any other site, fine. but he's part of Newsarama (am I wrong?) so of course people are going to question whether or not this is a form of self promotion and whether Marvel's "open" policy is just a means to sweeten the reporting pros on their company.

now that is all conspiracy rhetoric, same as anyone could say, that marvel is using all this "new talent" to save a buck in publishing and hopefully turn out a profitable movie license (that said creator won't get much dough from) from their stable of 4,700 characters (4,650 of which are useless). and i don't claim to believe it, but c'mon, are Newsarama readers supposed to be stupid?

are we supposed to just read this, along with our hot cup of "shut up fanboy, marvel's epic is the greatest," or does newsarama NOT have the option for readers to comment on their articles?

this is a nowhere/epic advertisment in some miniscule sense, and that's cool. epic is a tempting treat and mike's story sounds pretty interesting (i.e. we wanna hear about it), but you can't seriously expect us readers to bow to "expert insider" knowledge and not question the questionable.

marvel's intentions and execution of epic is questionable.

this article as it is a Newsarama writer on Newsarama is questionable.

so even if done in the PC tone of </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For Mike's defense in being involved in this project, I would say that your statement is very unfounded. Since I, along with Mitchell, had the priviledge to be involved in this process (though in a small way) know first hand that there is NO special favor given to Mike for him being a journalist.

In fact, although we have no idea of the process involved in the other EPIC project, it seem to have moved along a lot faster than this project.

I think it's fair to ASK if you're unsure of something... but to assume.... Reminds of me an old saying, "Don't assume... when you assume, you make an @$$ out of U and ME."[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i don't think it is fair to make our claims at favoritism seem invalid because some of the facts point right there. rationalize them, debunk them, believe them-- who cares, but i don't think any of us deveoted newsarama readers should be shot down, like we don't know any better.

yeah, we're not at Epic, Marvel, or Newsarama getting firsthand knowledge, but a lot of us weren't in Florida in 2000 counting votes either, but that doesn't mean we should believe everything we are told, just cuz it's on Fox News!

Steve Austin
05-19-2003, 04:17 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If you want "outsiders" with some assurance of competence, comics journalists are your best option. They're people who've shown a grasp of the difference between good comics and bad comics, and have the verbal skills to produce a readable script.* Such will not be true of most of the fanfic pitches Marvel will get when the cattle call opens. If I were in their shoes, I'd apply a similar spin when the first open-submission books do come out: hand-pick them for their first-impression value, and delay the more marginal books for later... even if those get done sooner.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's funny. Its funny the list of people picked to do the initial round of Epic titles, its a who's who list of people Marvel favors or Marvel owes favors.

1. Mark Millar (obvious)
2. Mike San Giacomo (well michael Doran does work for marvel now)
3. Chris Eliopoulos (Chris does lettering for Marvel, even helped them set up their now-defunct in-house lettering dept)

Honestly I really don't care... the Epic idea is a fine idea for those who have no other recourse, just make sure you read the fine print.

Jun Kim
05-19-2003, 04:20 PM
Hmmm... I think there's a definite misunderstang of what I had said... or definitely intended to say. In fact, I just want to make sure everyone knows that NONE of what I have said reflects on what and how Mike feels... I AM NOT SPEAKING for Mike at all.

As one a the "guys" trying to break into this industry myself... I felt kinda lucky to had been given a chance to try in this process at all. In midst of that process, I observed things that led me to believe that there's very little that MARVEL is actually doing right now that seem to "favor" Mike. But then again, just my opinion, right?

Now does that mean that I think EPIC is everything that Joe and Bill built it up to be? No. Did they announce that EVERYONE will get their chances? YES. Did they do it yet? NO. Do they continue to push the deadline for releasing the chance to the public? YES. Do I think that Marvel will get WHATEVER PR they can get? ABSOLUTELY. Would saying these thing blow my chance at illustrating this book? Probably. :(

I was not trying to "put down" anyone in the board, and I still don't think it reads that way. However, if it appeared that way, in fact, I take back everything I said. If nothing else, it's probably my "little" frustration at this whole process anyway...

All this...Coming from just one fanboy/wanna-be-creator to hopefully not-so-ticked off Newsarama.

theodoros
05-19-2003, 04:34 PM
LOL

This is like a reality soap opera!!

Next week. Same time, same web page.

This is fun!!

I think I like the idea, the writer the everything!!
Iam gonna buy it!!

Simon Bowland
05-19-2003, 04:45 PM
Whoa there! Back-track...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Austin:
[QB][QUOTE] 3. Chris Eliopoulos (Chris does lettering for Marvel, even helped them set up their now-defunct in-house lettering dept)
QUOTE]

Sorry to interrupt, but what do you mean? Are Marvel now no longer doing their own lettering... just months after dumping Comicraft?

Simon Bowland
05-19-2003, 04:46 PM
Urk! Sorry, my quoting didn't work there :rolleyes:

Steve Austin
05-19-2003, 06:12 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry to interrupt, but what do you mean? Are Marvel now no longer doing their own lettering... just months after dumping Comicraft? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah they fired the in house staff, who were then quickly hired by Chris.

Todd VerBeek
05-19-2003, 07:44 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Steve Austin:
<strong>That's funny. Its funny the list of people picked to do the initial round of Epic titles, its a who's who list of people Marvel favors or Marvel owes favors.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course there's some connection to each of them. The comics industry is too incestuously inbred to find much of anybody without some kind of connection to Marvel. It's kind of like pointing out that their names all have at least 3 letters from M-A-R-V-E-L as evidence of something.

And with a sample this small and incomplete it's difficult to make a credible case for a pattern. For one thing, you left out John Jackson Miller (whose Epic series was announced the same time as Sangiacomo's) and his suspicious connection to Marvel. Second, you're assuming that these are the only people invited, which a quick show of hands among other online writers refutes; these are just the first four announced. Furthermore, Millar was an obvious special case, hand-picked for the kick-off. And Eliopoulos came in through the side door, added to Epic because his book would fit well there, not because he was asked to pitch for it like Sangiacomo, J.J.Miller, and the as-yet-unannounced others. So the real sample size here is TWO, only ONE of which you've explained a connection for. (And jeez, who here - except perhaps a "newcomer" like yourself - doesn't know Mike Doran on some level?)

Sorry to make such a big deal out of this "Steve", but this is lousy science (a long-standing hobby of mine) and sloppy journalism (which I played at in college and a few years afterward) on your part, and that irks me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Honestly I really don't care... the Epic idea is a fine idea for those who have no other recourse, just make sure you read the fine print.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, definitely.

And speaking of which... the fine print - on all but the "creator-owned" contract - is now on the <a href="http://marvel.com/epic" target="_blank">Epic site</a> for your perusal. (The creator-owned contract is only offered to those who send in a non-Marvel-U pitch they like.)

NOTE: They're still not accepting submissions yet... just giving you a chance to read the contracts.

Benjamin Ong
05-19-2003, 10:09 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MattBrady:
<strong>not to put words in Mike's mouth, but keep reading...

MattB</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeing that Mitchell Breitweiser showed up (I know, he designed the logo), could he be the artist?!

comicguy66666
05-19-2003, 10:42 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by poppa_kapz:
[QB]Alright now no offense, but that is a small bit of bullshit you are slinging. In an "open" call to all "creators" Marvel "approached" writers in the comic news medium. That doesn't even make sense!

Are you kidding me? I mean even if you are claiming no favoritism or nepotism or just plain trying to "buy off" the media you have to admit that there is enough here for aphterburn or any other Newsarama reader to raise an eyebrow in speculation.

I mean if mike we're asked to give his "journey into marvel" story on any other site, fine. but he's part of Newsarama (am I wrong?) so of course people are going to question whether or not this is a form of self promotion and whether Marvel's "open" policy is just a means to sweeten the reporting pros on their company."

Maybe you missed the press conference or the earlier stories. Allow me to enlighten you.
Marvel sent out the invites to more than 50 critics and people loosely associated with the industry.
They received back more than 150 proposals.
think about that 150.
How many did they pick to actually produce?
Two, Sangiacomo's, excuse me San Giacomo's, and Miller's.
That does not sound like a comic company out to suck up to the critics. It sounds like a company with the balls to piss off the critics, since 48 of them were rejected. If anything, those other critics are going to be nastier than ever with Marvel. I notice that Sangiacomo is going out of his way to barely talk about Marvel these days, so if they thought he would be kissing their butts left and right, they were mistaken.

Maybe I'm naive here, but it seems to me that Marvel is doing just what it said it was going to do: It opened the process to a bunch of people, critics first. If they find a few good writers, great. Judging from what I've heard about the editing process, this whole writing thing ain't easy.

For anyone else wetting your pants waiting for Marvel to give the go-ahead to send in your scripts and art, relax, it's coming soon.
CG

nero
05-19-2003, 10:44 PM
It's a very simple analysis.

EPIC is publicized by Marvel (to great effect) as an open-submission line of comics offering the general public equal opportunity to break into the comics industry.

So far, all announced books are by people Marvel has 'approached'. Read: hired.

Marvel is not publishing the best books first in an effort to take advantage of a line-wide positive first impression. Were that the case, they could have easily opened the public submission lines while simultaneously reviewing the pieces pitched by privately approached creators. It is implausible to assume that no publicly received scripts would be superior, or equal, to those received via standard work-for-hire (though at the newer, lower EPIC standard wage) means.

The only thing seperating EPIC from KNIGHTS or ULTIMATE right now is a set of guidelines on a website, and a PR push.

Take them as you will, those are the facts.

TemporalFlux
05-20-2003, 12:24 AM
Ya know, I've sat back watching this for awhile before I said something. I've had my share of disagreements with Marvel policy in the past, but the ingrates bashing Epic already frankly amaze me. Do you realize Marvel truly owes you jack squat? Do you realize that you're losing *nothing* by waiting to see...that you're losing *nothing* to submit (and if you think you are, then DON'T submit). The continued bitching and moaning is making me physically ill. You people are honestly spoiled brats.

My only hope is that Marvel will have enough patience to ignore this crap. I realize and appreciate Marvel is attempting to re-open some avenues. It may not be exactly how every person would like to see it or by the time table some people would like to envision, but Marvel is making an effort. It's a hell of alot more than has been done the past decade. I'm keeping my fingers crossed these spoiled brats will NOT be selected, though...they are the ones who are going to try to ruin it for everybody if they get in there.

Todd VerBeek
05-20-2003, 12:29 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by nero:
<strong>Marvel is not publishing the best books first </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who said they were? I merely said that they wanted something "fairly good" to start with. If you have to misquote someone's statements to argue against them, you're already on shaky ground.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>in an effort to take advantage of a line-wide positive first impression. Were that the case, they could have easily opened the public submission lines while simultaneously reviewing the pieces pitched by privately approached creators.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unless they jumped the gun with the publicity. It seemed pretty clear from Jemas' attempts to answer questions at the time that they were simply not prepared for that. The contracts weren't even done. There's no need to read anything malicious into this; it's just poor management.

The one thing they did right was having something nearly ready to go when they announced Epic, and having some other projects already in the pipeline. They need something to show and get the "Epic" brand out there. If they had waited until the announcement of the line to start reviewing any pitches (invited or not), there would be too long of a delay before anything finally reached the shelves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>It is implausible to assume that no publicly received scripts would be superior, or equal, to those received via standard work-for-hire (though at the newer, lower EPIC standard wage) means.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which is why no one has said anything of the sort. At least not here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>The only thing seperating EPIC from KNIGHTS or ULTIMATE right now is a set of guidelines on a website, and a PR push.
Take them as you will, those are the facts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You started with facts. You then rushed into misrepresentation, then wandered through conjecture and speculation, and ended in the realm of thoroughly subjective opinion.

I'm not some Marvel-worshipping zombie. Give me half an hour and I'll tell you 30 different things they're doing that I don't like or that I think are mistakes. Frankly, I won't be surprised if Epic crashes and burns under the weight of unmet expectations and sour grapes. But that doesn't mean everything about it is some kind of conspiracy of lies and empty PR.

BlakSun
05-20-2003, 01:52 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You started with facts. You then rushed into misrepresentation, then wandered through conjecture and speculation, and ended in the realm of thoroughly subjective opinion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">:D LOL!

mc (_(\/)_)achete
05-20-2003, 03:11 AM
NO MSG!

ugh. :D sorry, too easy.

good luck, dude. sounds promising, so i'll be picking it up.

thebeast
05-20-2003, 06:05 AM
Sounds pretty good, I'll buy it...(so long as the artist isn't Liefield!!!)

Just like to wish Mike luck in this venture and thank him for writing these columns which give us a small insight into how the Epic line will work. (Even if this has kicked-off super-sized fights on the boards!)

Also I have to say I'm not sure why everybody is so upset by the early lineup being "marvelized" it make perfect marketing sense to have Millar and Eliopoulos and San Giacomo on the start-up books to give the whole line a boost, it will be better for the "new" guys that come later if the line is established and has some notoriety.

Jun Kim
05-20-2003, 08:28 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by thebeast:
<strong>Sounds pretty good, I'll buy it...(so long as the artist isn't Liefield!!!)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, Mike, I'm NOT Liefield! I don't draw anything like him!!! :D

danzo
05-20-2003, 08:35 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TemporalFlux:
<strong>Ya know, I've sat back watching this for awhile before I said something. I've had my share of disagreements with Marvel policy in the past, but the ingrates bashing Epic already frankly amaze me. Do you realize Marvel truly owes you jack squat? Do you realize that you're losing *nothing* by waiting to see...that you're losing *nothing* to submit (and if you think you are, then DON'T submit). The continued bitching and moaning is making me physically ill. You people are honestly spoiled brats.

My only hope is that Marvel will have enough patience to ignore this crap. I realize and appreciate Marvel is attempting to re-open some avenues. It may not be exactly how every person would like to see it or by the time table some people would like to envision, but Marvel is making an effort. It's a hell of alot more than has been done the past decade. I'm keeping my fingers crossed these spoiled brats will NOT be selected, though...they are the ones who are going to try to ruin it for everybody if they get in there.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yeah. what he said.
sheesh, some of you really need a clue... hint: there is more to the world than your view....

David H.
05-20-2003, 08:45 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by nero:
<strong>It's a very simple analysis.

EPIC is publicized by Marvel (to great effect) as an open-submission line of comics offering the general public equal opportunity to break into the comics industry.

So far, all announced books are by people Marvel has 'approached'. Read: hired.

Marvel is not publishing the best books first in an effort to take advantage of a line-wide positive first impression. Were that the case, they could have easily opened the public submission lines while simultaneously reviewing the pieces pitched by privately approached creators. It is implausible to assume that no publicly received scripts would be superior, or equal, to those received via standard work-for-hire (though at the newer, lower EPIC standard wage) means.

The only thing seperating EPIC from KNIGHTS or ULTIMATE right now is a set of guidelines on a website, and a PR push.

Take them as you will, those are the facts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know, so often it amazes me the level that fans actually care about the tiny minutiae of this hobby.

These are COMICS. Why, exactly, do so many of us think that it's actually our business what goes on in the halls of Marvel, DC, etc? Why do we spend so much time questioning their motives?

Why do people really get so personally invested in the personalities and companies in this hobby?

This is supposed to be a hobby. It's supposed to be FUN.

If some good COMICS come out of the Epic program, then that's good enough for me.

I could honestly care less WHY they put them out, what their ulterior motives were, who kissed whose butt to get what from whom, etc. It's truly amazing the conspiracy theories that people come up with on these boards.

mitchell breitweiser
05-20-2003, 09:18 AM
"If some good COMICS come out of the Epic program, then that's good enough for me."
--------------

ahhh, finally a voice of common sense.
It is nice to see capitalism at work, though.

Jeremy Williams
05-20-2003, 10:24 AM
Is the story still about an invisible dude that`s going to assassinate Sadam? Because it`s pretty mooth, now wouldn`t you say? I think they should turn this around, make it about George W, so just like that Marvel could appear on CNN once again. :D

aphterburn
05-20-2003, 11:27 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by David H.:
You know, so often it amazes me the level that fans actually care about the tiny minutiae of this hobby.

These are COMICS. Why, exactly, do so many of us think that it's actually our business what goes on in the halls of Marvel, DC, etc? Why do we spend so much time questioning their motives?

Why do people really get so personally invested in the personalities and companies in this hobby?

This is supposed to be a hobby. It's supposed to be FUN.

If some good COMICS come out of the Epic program, then that's good enough for me.

I could honestly care less WHY they put them out, what their ulterior motives were, who kissed whose butt to get what from whom, etc. It's truly amazing the conspiracy theories that people come up with on these boards.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't really care that much who kissed what ass either. I don't take it terribly seriously either. What I find to be a minor annoyance is being lied to or jerked around. Don't tell me you're taking each "submission" on a case-by-base basis, everyone being equal.....then contradict yourself by reaching out to a reporter to write your comics. That's not only betraying your original statements, it's downright shady since the guy IS a reporter.
I like Mike, and will probably buy his book, but I don't have to like Marvel's bullshit spin.

Todd VerBeek
05-20-2003, 12:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Steve Austin:
<strong>the Epic idea is a fine idea for those who have no other recourse, just make sure you read the fine print.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For the benefit of those who don't speak legalese, I've put up a somewhat opinionated - but fair, I think - <a href="http://toddverbeek.com/MarvelWFHContract.html" target="_blank">paragraph-by-paragraph interpretation</a> of the "Work Made For Hire" contract Marvel will be offering to Epic writers. Feel free to give this URL to anyone who might be interested.

-Todd

Jun Kim
05-20-2003, 02:16 PM
Thanks Todd.... for the commentary. It was very, very helpful. :-)

nova64
05-20-2003, 02:19 PM
Thank you for the legal breakdown! That really helped. I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but legalese makes my head hurt. Much easier to understand now.

Also, imo, we really should give Epic a chance. I see it as Marvel giving fans a chance to do something they may have always wanted to do but didn't have the opportunity. It benefits them by deepening the talent pool and, perhaps, gaining them some company loyalty from the new talent.

And, yes, the publicity doesn't hurt them, either. Marvel is a business, after all.

I say, let's enjoy the ride and see what comes out of it.

Doug

poppa_kapz
05-20-2003, 02:27 PM
comicguy66666,

dood, like i said i not saying i believe either or just saying that the nature of this column and Epic breed skepticism.

and i know all about the press conference, so what if they only picked a few, it doesn't change the fact that an "open to all" invitation was only made to a select few.

one could argue that there would have been no difference had they had an actual "open" submissions and only picked a few out of a bunch of no-bodies. therefore this Epic manuever generates the skepticism.

write what you like but it is a fact proven by the replies to this very column.

as for that cat who wrote "marvel owes you nothing." are you serious? if i pay $3 bucks for a comic what am i supposed to get?

but i don't think that was your point. as far as dues go, i don't think marvel will ever be but so considerate of it's readers intelligence, because tha sales numbers tell them a different story BUT, that doesn't change any sharp-minded Newsarama readers right to call "foul" when they are being hoodwinked.

fact: 1+1=2
fact: open to all submissions = open to ALL submissions

like i said not a matter, of debts owed, or marvel bashing, it's a matter of facts, and calling things as they are.

to sum up, your point of 150 proposals doesn't change the half-truth of an "open-submission." so while some of us readers/and or creators do not feel that marvel "owes" us, we stand by the logic of this parallel.

if person A tells person B that they will do C, but the person A does D, then in effect C is false. and until C is achieved it remains false.

poppa_kapz
05-20-2003, 02:39 PM
TemporalFlux

you have the right to "sit back" as much as we have the right to "bitch." but we'll all respect each others right to express ourselves.

as for marvel's "tolerance..." what are we supposed to do? expect a spanking? oh no, we made marvel mad now they are only puttin out 10 X-titles instead of 15. why were we so ungrateful.

and sarcasm aside, my points aren't marvel bashing they're observations. marvel much like microsoft has become a neccessity and that alone is appreciated. they help keep the industry going, BUT they are a corporation bent on profit and there is nothing wrong with questioning the morality of that.

this is a forum, we debate, we make points, we debunk, we exchange, most importantly we think! and "sitting back" is not part of that, so if that is what you choose to do then please, stick to it.

if not then bring it on, this site is ripe with debaters!

HEALTH ADVISORY WARNING
please take Pepto Bismol(tm) while reading future installments of Newsarama as "phsycial illness" may occur.

Todd VerBeek
05-20-2003, 02:41 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by poppa_kapz:
<strong>and i know all about the press conference, so what if they only picked a few, it doesn't change the fact that an "open to all" invitation was only made to a select few.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you familiar with the phrase "so far"?

Marvel will be opening the door to "all"; they just haven't done it so far. When that happens (and it appears they're nearly ready), will you drop this quasi-rational rant about the "fact" that they "lied"?

poppa_kapz
05-20-2003, 02:42 PM
David H.

if you don't care don't post.

we care, we post.

poppa_kapz
05-20-2003, 02:51 PM
Todd VerBeek

you make a good point todd. but i don't have to drop a goddam thing. i'm just arguing on aphterburn's team.

something smells fishy, we are acknoledging the smell. besides regardless of whether we are getting ahead of ourselves doesn't change the peculiar nature of this manuever.

the same thing could have come from opening the doors to all creators. instead they "approached" a select number. yeah they are "gonna" open the doors to everybody soon, but they didn't initially which makes people suspicious.

aren't you kind of supspicious of that Todd (you broke down the contract into english)? doesn't that seem kinda weird? can't we talk about that? is this a forum?

Todd VerBeek
05-20-2003, 04:25 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by poppa_kapz:
<strong>you make a good point todd. but i don't have to drop a goddam thing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, you don't have to drop it. You can discuss whatever loopy conspiracy theories you want. But I can ask you to give them a rest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>aren't you kind of supspicious of that Todd (you broke down the contract into english)? doesn't that seem kinda weird?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No. There are other things that I am suspicious of (mostly the things left out of the WFH contract), but the fact that - in addition to accepting submissions from anyone - they invited certain people to submit early... that isn't suspicious or weird at all.

If you're old enough to have been to college yet, maybe this example will be familiar: My housemates used to post flyers on campus advertising open parties at our house. But they'd invite our other friends to come over beforehand. No one who showed up when the party "started" thought it was weird that there were already drunk people there and the keg had been tapped. They just paid their two bucks, took a Solo cup, and filled it.

The situation with Epic is much like JCPenney having a big sale, but sending an invitation in the mail to people with Penney charge cards to come in an hour before they open to the general public. That doesn't make their ad in yesterday's paper, listing their regular hours and the details about what's on sale, deceptive.

And Marvel's motive for doing it is obvious (and not particularly shady): it gives them time to figure out how to handle all this, and more control over the quality of the initial Epic releases.

ramberk
05-20-2003, 04:27 PM
Suspicoius of what? What point are you trying to make?

So what if Marvel asked people in the industry first. What's so suspicous about that? If Marvel never actually looks at submissions from non-professionals and people outside of the industry then yes, I would accuse Marvel of lying and being underhanded. But Epic is barely starting-- the first Epic book hasn't even reached the racks. It's still too early to start accusing Marvel of lying and being evil-- wait six months and then start hosing Marvel.

This ranting about Marvel being underhanded or suspicous is irrational-- you guys are jumping the gun a little to quickly.

karmapunk
05-20-2003, 07:55 PM
Let me say to the general furor that the person of people responsible for approaching writers and critics with invitations to submit, before opening the door to all us fanboys, should be given a promotion. It was brilliant, and respectful to us, the buyer.
Here's why:
Lets say that Marvel decides to launch Epic with no test group. Just opens the door to all us fans and hopefuls. And say the submissions suck. I know you are saying to yourself "but my idea is awesome!" it might be, and if so I'll buy your book I promise, but just what if? Being a Fan does not mean you necessarily have the skills to be a creator. They might open up the doors and get a load of enthusiastic crap. Lets face it, most of it is going to suck, writing is hard kiddos, illustration is hard. These are crafts that take years of work and no small amount of talent. And if they had promised a new line of comics with only crap to choose from we, the buyer would have been stuck with a new line of crap. Oh joy.
Instead they used their contacts to create a focus group, a testing pool. And out of this pool they evidently were encouraged with the results so they went forward and opened the doors the rest of the way (still a ballsy move if you ask me).
Thank god they did. It shows they are being careful and respecting the most important people in this whole equation - us.
So work hard on your submissions and polish your talent and lets give a little hats off to the guinea pigs who come before us.

Go get 'em Mike

mike sangiacomo
05-20-2003, 11:19 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by karmapunk:
<strong>Let me say to the general furor that the person of people responsible for approaching writers and critics with invitations to submit, before opening the door to all us fanboys, should be given a promotion. It was brilliant, and respectful to us, the buyer.
Here's why:
Lets say that Marvel decides to launch Epic with no test group. Just opens the door to all us fans and hopefuls. And say the submissions suck. I know you are saying to yourself "but my idea is awesome!" it might be, and if so I'll buy your book I promise, but just what if? Being a Fan does not mean you necessarily have the skills to be a creator. They might open up the doors and get a load of enthusiastic crap. Lets face it, most of it is going to suck, writing is hard kiddos, illustration is hard. These are crafts that take years of work and no small amount of talent. And if they had promised a new line of comics with only crap to choose from we, the buyer would have been stuck with a new line of crap. Oh joy.
Instead they used their contacts to create a focus group, a testing pool. And out of this pool they evidently were encouraged with the results so they went forward and opened the doors the rest of the way (still a ballsy move if you ask me).
Thank god they did. It shows they are being careful and respecting the most important people in this whole equation - us.
So work hard on your submissions and polish your talent and lets give a little hats off to the guinea pigs who come before us.

Go get 'em Mike</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">SAN GIACOMO HERE
Exactly, karmapunk.
No offense to some of you other posters out there, but Good God, what is your problem?
Is it so difficult to understand that Marvel opened the door to critics first with every intention of letting all comers in later?
This is what Jemas, Quesada, Doran and everyone else has said all along. Every time. What part don't you understand?
Start off with a few, then more.
It ain't rocket science. If you can't figure that out, good luck trying to follow the rules and writing a script.
Let me tell you, as you'll see in further "Epic Journey" columns, this stuff is not as easy as it looks. The fact that so few were chosen from the ranks or professional (or semi-professional) writers should indicate that Marvel is not just accepting anything turned in.
And that's the way it should be. Otherwise, EPIC will turn into the crap patch it became in the 1990s.
This could be the start of something truly innovative, appreciate it. Don't assume the worst.