MY EPIC JOURNEY 2: CHARACTER THOUGHTS [Archive]

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MattBrady

05-12-2003, 04:56 PM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Epic2.jpg" width="200" height="304" border="0" hspace="2" align="right">by Mike Sangiacomo

So Marvel was on the lookout for new talent and decided to let the nation’s league of loud-mouthed critics have a crack. It was to be one issue and could be darn near anything we wanted.

After some soul-searching and deliberation, I decided that sure, why not?

I mean, when is any comic company ever going to make such an offer again? Chances are they would read my idea, post it on the office bulletin board so everyone can have a few laughs, and then politely tell me it “wasn’t exactly what they were looking for at this time.” I thought if nothing else it would be good for my critical creative process to walk a while in the writer’s shoes.

The idea that came to me was a new character set in the real world called “The Nowhere Man.”

He would be.... A NEWSPAPER REPORTER! Now that’s a stretch.

But he would be a reporter with a huge advantage, he had the power to become invisible. And he was a bit of a sleaze, meaning he would do the things most guys would do if they could turn invisible, things our wives and girlfriends would slap us for thinking about. Despite it all, he was a good guy and got things done.

Yeah, that’s the ticket.

For about 18 seconds I even thought of patterning the character after Saturday Night Live’s Jon Lovitz, for the pervert factor, but decided against it. On my 45-minute drive home from the office I mulled the concept over. It was December, war with Iraq was just a few weeks away. In a curious case of optimism I figured that this book could be on the stands by April and surely the war would still be going on.

This was a chance to actually do what a hundred writers have said they would do (and none accomplished) to write a story ripped from today’s headlines. So, the invisible reporter goes to Iraq and does something cool. Oh Hell, I figured I’d go all the way. The Nowhere Man would go to Iraq and kill Saddam Hussein.

Now I knew there was no way in Hell that Marvel would let me write a story in which a world leader, even a scumbag world leader like Hussein, was killed. But I also knew it would catch their attention. I could always change the ending. I got home and was greeted by my dogs, Jack, Baxter, Kelsey and Nerissa and the two cats in the house that like me, Madison Blue and Rigby.

Such loyalty will be rewarded, my furry friends.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Jack.jpg" width="200" height="321" border="0" hspace="2" align="left" alt="Jack">The lead character would be named Jack Baxter. One of the sultry women in the book would be named Madison Blue, since that fits my cat’s character. Wise, old Rigby would become an editor. Kelsey and Nerissa would have to wait for fame.

Hey - I’m terrible at making up names, so my characters tend to be named after pets and friends.

After talking about the project with my wife, Barbara, whose eyes tend to glaze over whenever I talk about comics, I decided to bang out an outline. The problem with writing an outline is that it implies you have an actual story plotted out. I didn’t, just some vague notions.

So I started writing the story in regular script format, letting the characters lead me to the story. It worked out pretty well. By the end of the night, I had a very packed 22-page story that introduced the character, gave him an origin, a background story that included Baghdad (based on my personal experiences there in the last war), conflict, friends, foes, a needy brother, a mission and a story that ended with the murder of a world leader.

But when I wrote the story I felt convinced that Nowhere Man would not work as a title because I had this nagging notion that it had been used before in a comic. I didn’t think Sir Paul McCartney would object to my borrowing the name, since he and I are personal friends. All right, so maybe we’re not personal friends, but I didn’t think he would object anyway since he is a comics fan. Remember he did sing about “Magneto and Titanium Man, with Crimson Dynamo along for the ride.”

My second idea for a name was simpler, Jack Phantom, which was inspired by the MLJ Golden Age character named Bob Phantom. Dunno why, but I love that stupid name. I hit a replace key and turned all the Nowhere Man references to Jack Phantom, even though I also had a feeling that Jack Phantom was already in use somewhere.

The next day I called Stephanie Moore at Marvel and told her I had a proposal for her. As much as I didn’t want to be the first to arrive at the dance, I printed out the script and sent it over.

She said the idea was simple, that I should sign and return the 4 or 5 legal documents she e-mailed me. If Marvel liked the idea, it would be greenlit. I would get the okay to line up a crew: artist, inker, letterer and colorist, put the comic together and Marvel would print it under the Epic sigil.

The money wasn’t great; it would be based on the number of books sold. The creative team would split the profits on a percentage basis, the more copies the title sold, the more money for us.

I’m a guy who can’t balance a checkbook and would not even consider doing my own taxes, so the money part was no big deal. It would be nice, but I was not going to put a down payment on a new car just yet. After all, they will be considering dozens of projects, what are the odds of mine making it with a character that would be one of the weakest in the Marvel universe?

I went back to work at the newspaper figuring this was the beginning of the end of my comic career, even though a small part of me was thinking, “Yeah, but wouldn’t it be cool?”

to be continued...

<center><a href="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Nowhere_Man.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Nowhere_Man_t.jpg" width="350" height="108" border="0" alt="tentative logo design for Nowhere Man"></a></center>

(logo design by Mitchell Breitweiser)

Mike Sangiacomo, a freelance writer for Newsarama and other sources, was invited to share his experiences with pitching to Epic by Newsarama's editor, Matt Brady, in the interest of keeping readers well informed. Brady advises Newsarama readers that he is aware of the inherent conflict of interest presented by journalists working for a publisher they cover. Sangiacomo’s regular column Journey Into Comics has and will continue to be found in the Opinion/Editorial section of Newsarama. Brady has not, nor does he plan to pitch to Epic himself.

Jun Kim

05-12-2003, 07:25 PM

That's how the names came about... heh, here I thought you went to see some seer or had some mindnight-dancing-by-the-lake ritual to come up with them... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I'm really enjoying this column, Mike.

D.J. Coffman is your daddy

05-12-2003, 08:08 PM

Heeeeey wasnt this a Tv show in the 80's---- HAH!_ Just kidding man! hehehe--

Im liking this series Mike-- Best of luck with the Epic thing! I hope it pays off for you dude!

05-12-2003, 08:13 PM

Reading Rich Johnston's Lying In The Gutters column today he said that Marvel's already received thousands of submissions from the public, despite their request that hopefuls wait until they're ready to actually look at them.

How many Newsarama regulars are thinking of or working on submissions?

TemporalFlux

05-12-2003, 08:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by db:
Reading Rich Johnston's Lying In The Gutters column today he said that Marvel's already received thousands of submissions from the public, despite their requests that hopefuls wait until they're ready to actually look at them.<hr /></blockquote>If true, that's pretty dumb on the part of those who sent in. Without the proper legal forms, all of those will be flat rejected...and the complete run of needed legal forms are not up yet.

Rich Johnston

05-12-2003, 08:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by db:
Reading Rich Johnston's Lying In The Gutters column today he said that Marvel's already received thousands of submissions from the public, despite their requests that hopefuls wait until they're ready to actually look at them.

How many Newsarama regulars are thinking of or working on sumbissions?<hr /></blockquote>Lying In The Gutters also has a piece on how conflict of interests has already cost one publication dear...

05-12-2003, 08:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by db:
How many Newsarama regulars are thinking of or working on sumbissions?<hr /></blockquote>Not me.

IanZL

05-12-2003, 11:24 PM

wasn't there an invisible reporter from one of the recent Batman cartoons?

basement dweller

05-13-2003, 12:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> How many Newsarama regulars are thinking of or working on sumbissions? <hr /></blockquote>Well you can count me for one, I've been throwing some stuff down seeing what acctuly seems good. I had a ultimate spider-man/Dr strange issue but there was too much I didn't like about it. So I'll just keep on plugging away and hope something hits me.

Karl V

05-13-2003, 12:56 AM

If Jemas actually gets back to me on the NeoKnights quandry, there's definately one coming from me:)

Harry Tzvi Keusch

05-13-2003, 01:32 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Remember he did sing about “Magneto and Titanium Man, with Crimson Dynamo along for the ride.” <hr /></blockquote>What Paul McCartney song has that line in it?

05-13-2003, 01:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Karl V:
If Jemas actually gets back to me on the NeoKnights quandry, there's definately one coming from me:)<hr /></blockquote>Cool!

woodstock

05-13-2003, 01:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by IanZL:
wasn't there an invisible reporter from one of the recent Batman cartoons?<hr /></blockquote>\

Yeah, he was a gossip TV reporter on an episode of Batman Beyond.

Michael K. Willis

05-13-2003, 03:26 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Harry Tzvi Keusch:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Remember he did sing about “Magneto and Titanium Man, with Crimson Dynamo along for the ride.” <hr /></blockquote>What Paul McCartney song has that line in it?<hr /></blockquote>It's actually called "Magneto and Titanium Man"...it's from Wings' 1975 disc "Venus and Mars".

Michael

05-13-2003, 08:06 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by db:
How many Newsarama regulars are thinking of or working on sumbissions?<hr /></blockquote>Not me.<hr /></blockquote>Is that because of the terms MOTA?
(Sorry, I think I vaguely recall you saying something to that effect before)

Jason A. Quest

05-13-2003, 09:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by db:
How many Newsarama regulars are thinking of or working on sumbissions?<hr /></blockquote>Anyone still "thinking about it" prolly wont.

My series outline and character designs have been done for ages. Got names for them and everything. :) My scripts're done for the first 2 of 12 ish. I'm just waiting for Marvel to get their act together and put up the forms to send it in. Ive done thumnails of #1&2 too whcih I still need to finish penciling fullsize so I can also get myself approved as a penciler so Marvel will let me hire myself to be part of my team. I can ink it if I have to but itd be better with someone who knows what he's doing. :)

And if they dont approve it or if they still havent put up the forms before I'm ready to move with it I'll find some other way to publish it. I'm doing this book. Its just a question of if Epic will get a shot at publishing it or not. It's an "Ultimate" version of a big-name public-domain character, so if Marvel doesnt bite I can drop the "Ultimate" name and still do it myself. (I feel sorry for dudes writing scripts taylor-made for their fave third-teir Marvel character, cuz if Marvel says "no", that's it.)

-JAQ

Banana_Oil

05-13-2003, 11:23 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Michael K. Willis:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Harry Tzvi Keusch:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Remember he did sing about “Magneto and Titanium Man, with Crimson Dynamo along for the ride.” <hr /></blockquote>What Paul McCartney song has that line in it?<hr /></blockquote>It's actually called "Magneto and Titanium Man"...it's from Wings' 1975 disc "Venus and Mars".

Michael<hr /></blockquote>In McCartney's concert film "Rockshow," you can see him performing it with Marvel artwork behind him.

Karl V

05-13-2003, 11:23 AM

(I feel sorry for dudes writing scripts taylor-made for their fave third-teir Marvel character, cuz if Marvel says "no", that's it.)

Heh, mine's more like fifth teir if that...

Julio Diaz

05-13-2003, 11:24 AM

I'm not putting together a submission.

I don't have any Marvel Universe stories I'm burning to tell, and I wouldn't want to give up any of the rights to the comic I do want to do.

I did think long and hard about submitting, but ultimately decided against it.

Now, if they ever come out with a straight creator-owned deal, I will definitely submit.

Johnny Smith

05-13-2003, 11:40 AM

(I feel sorry for dudes writing scripts taylor-made for their fave third-teir Marvel character, cuz if Marvel says "no", that's it.)

Won't bother me - I'll just slap a sigil on the chest of my character and submit the story to CrossGen!

Looney As A Toon

05-13-2003, 12:00 PM

I have a great idea and it's ready to go!

It'll be called "Despot"... a sorrid tale of a Hollywood hack hellbent on ruining the comic book industry so he gets this cushy job as President of Marvel Comics and then... ahhh, but that would be giving it away {S rimshot! } <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :rolleyes: :cool: :p

Seriously, ladies and germs, I do have a proposal for the righteous and, admittedly, stunningly handsome Mssrs. Jemas and Quesada to consider... a tale too torrid and controversial to ever be published.... right-wing fundamentalist Christian groups as well as members of the Major League Baseball Umpires Union will be looking to loot and burn the Marvel corporate offices if my little tale gets published... {typical Sunday-after-services behavior for the both groups so what the hell :rolleyes: )

So, kids, check the stands for the latest issue of the comic your parents will want to line the birdcage with: Undercover Messiah or How I Stopped Thinking And Learned to Love Jerry Falwell

:cool:

Jason A. Quest

05-13-2003, 01:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Johnny Smith:
Won't bother me - I'll just slap a sigil on the chest of my character and submit the story to CrossGen!<hr /></blockquote>You left out the part about moving to Florida. CGE wants everybody working in the Sigilverse to come into the office every day. Plus that nasty business of shaving and putting on a clean shirt first. :)

Jason A. Quest

05-13-2003, 01:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Julio Diaz:
Now, if they ever come out with a straight creator-owned deal, I will definitely submit.<hr /></blockquote>They said theyre going to and theyve just announced one creator-owned book (Desparate Times) that came in thru other chanels. Thats why I'm still thinking I might submit mine to Epic. But like you, no effing way I'm selling the whole thing to Marvel.

-JAQ

Julio Diaz

05-13-2003, 02:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jason A. Quest:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Johnny Smith:
Won't bother me - I'll just slap a sigil on the chest of my character and submit the story to CrossGen!<hr /></blockquote>You left out the part about moving to Florida. CGE wants everybody working in the Sigilverse to come into the office every day. Plus that nasty business of shaving and putting on a clean shirt first. :) <hr /></blockquote>Right. Because Scott Beatty's not writing RUSE freelance or anything, and they don't use freelancers like Paul Ryan for art fill-ins.

So where's the obligatory Kool-Aid joke, while you're at it?

Julio Diaz

05-13-2003, 02:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jason A. Quest:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Julio Diaz:
Now, if they ever come out with a straight creator-owned deal, I will definitely submit.<hr /></blockquote>They said theyre going to and theyve just announced one creator-owned book (Desparate Times) that came in thru other chanels. Thats why I'm still thinking I might submit mine to Epic. But like you, no effing way I'm selling the whole thing to Marvel.

-JAQ<hr /></blockquote>True. I think they will eventually have something in place. But I'm waiting until they do -- no sense in giving things a chance of going wrong.

05-13-2003, 02:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by db:
Is that because of the terms MOTA?
(Sorry, I think I vaguely recall you saying something to that effect before)<hr /></blockquote>It's not that.

I just don't want to work for Marvel, they rewrite your work no matter who you are, old or new (unless you're a 'hot' writer).

Quesada rewrote Englehart's Big Town because he thought readers wouldn't get it, and had Eden's Trail changed.

He thinks that it's ok to rewrite new writers work, as he pointed out in that Waiting for Tommy interview.

Plus my previous complaints still stand. Marvel characters run around in circles and that's something that I don't want to happen to my work. Whatever I may submit will depend on a lot of things that Marvel doesn't allow, like growth and change.

roman

05-13-2003, 02:51 PM

Why would Marvel make the creators from their Epic line pay them money? If I heard correctly it was somewhere around $8,000! That just tells me that Marvel has no faith in the books that they are picking up. Some of the stuff I have seen so far looks good. I could see you taking a precentage every month or something like that. But $8,000 and they will still probably take a percentage anyways. If someone could clear that up for me I would appreciate it. Because this does not seem like a chance to break in for me, it looks more like they are waiting for the books to fail, but they will still have their money. And the creators will be paying the debt off for a few years!

"Roman lettuce taste so good"

05-13-2003, 02:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by roman:
Why would Marvel make the creators from their Epic line pay them money? If I heard correctly it was somewhere around $8,000! That just tells me that Marvel has no faith in the books that they are picking up. Some of the stuff I have seen so far looks good. I could see you taking a precentage every month or something like that. But $8,000 and they will still probably take a percentage anyways. If someone could clear that up for me I would appreciate it. Because this does not seem like a chance to break in for me, it looks more like they are waiting for the books to fail, but they will still have their money. And the creators will be paying the debt off for a few years!

"Roman lettuce taste so good"<hr /></blockquote>Actually I think that it's Marvel that gives the writer $8'000 dollars to pay the penciler, inker, colorist and letterer (or maybe just the penciler and inker?)

Plus the writer gets like a $500 dollar advance just for him (I think).

roman

05-13-2003, 03:00 PM

If what you said is true, then that would be the best possible publishing move. But I thought I heard that Marvel is going to give $500 to the writer and then he or she has to pay back like $7,000 something. I will go look again to make sure.

"Roman lettuce taste so good"

Jason A. Quest

05-13-2003, 03:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Julio Diaz:
So where's the obligatory Kool-Aid joke, while you're at it?<hr /></blockquote>I guess its off with your sense of humor.

Geez... what is it about CrossGen that people turn nasty the second someone dares to say anything slightly funny about them? You trying to prove the "cult" jokes right? If not, lighten up.

And I wasn't even poking fun of CG, dude. I was making a light-hearted joke about the people who think CG is awful because they expect proper hygeine there. How is that making fun of CG?

And getting back to the original point, the fact that CrossGen has made a couple exceptions doesnt change the fact I was stating, that CrossGen doesn't take freelance series pitches for the Sigilverse, especially not from nobodies like him or me.

roman

05-13-2003, 03:05 PM

Here it is-

First off, Jemas clarified previous reports of how Epic creators are paid. Once a script is accepted by Marvel for Epic, the writer is paid a $500 advance, and then the base fee is $8,000 thereafter. After that, according to Jemas, there is a reasonable bonus structure.

That is kind of steep dont you think? The people doing the epic line are not buying rights from Marvel....So why is the fee so high? With the amount of money Marvel makes they should at least try not taking more money from people who want to get published. Like I said before, a percentage would do. Or like Image Comics take a certain amount each month.

"Roman lettuce taste so good"

05-13-2003, 03:07 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by roman:
If what you said is true, then that would be the best possible publishing move.<hr /></blockquote>From a financial stand point, sure, it's better than Image.

But from a creative stand point? This is still Marvel...

Jason A. Quest

05-13-2003, 03:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by roman:
If what you said is true, then that would be the best possible publishing move. But I thought I heard that Marvel is going to give $500 to the writer and then he or she has to pay back like $7,000 something. I will go look again to make sure.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe you should do that before you post in the 1st place, rather than reporting what "you thought you heard" when that doesn't even make sense. Epic is going to pay creators, not the other way around.

-JAQ

05-13-2003, 03:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by roman:
That is kind of steep don't you think? The people doing the epic line are not buying rights from Marvel....<hr /></blockquote>I think that the fee is what Marvel pays the creators, not what they charge them to use their characters.

Imagine if it were!?!? No one would want to submit to Marvel if they had to pay to use their characters.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by roman:
So why is the fee so high? With the amount of money Marvel makes they should at least try not taking more money from people who want to get published. Like I said before, a percentage would do. Or like Image Comics take a certain amount each month.<hr /></blockquote>In this case the higher the fee the better for you :)

I'm pretty sure that the fee is what Marvel is going to pay you and the others on the creative team.

I'm pretty sure because of the line that followed:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />After that, according to Jemas, there is a reasonable bonus structure.<hr /></blockquote>Bonus as the higher the sales on the book are the more money Marvel will give you.

Of course, I could be wrong :) lol

Jason A. Quest

05-13-2003, 03:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I just don't want to work for Marvel, they rewrite your work no matter who you are, old or new (unless you're a 'hot' writer).<hr /></blockquote>I doubt they'll even bother rewriting Epic stuff. The whole reason Epic can work financially is that theres no real work involved for Marvel. As I understand Jemas's explanations, for the stuff they don't specially recruit, they just say GO or NO on the script you submit and the artists, and from then on youre on your own until you mail them a CD-R with your pages all pasted up in Quark and ready for them to send to teh printer. Paying an editor to rewrite your dialog would cost them too much.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Plus my previous complaints still stand. Marvel characters run around in circles and that's something that I don't want to happen to my work. Whatever I may submit will depend on a lot of things that Marvel doesn't allow, like growth and change.<hr /></blockquote>Dude, if you care about what happens with your characters after you're done with them, you shouldnt even be THINKING about selling them to ANY publisher. Complaining about Marvel's editorila policy with their characters is kinda missing the whole point.

05-13-2003, 03:42 PM

You gotta love the contradictions.

Check this out, from their Submissions rules for Writers:

'If the script you are submitting is NOT set in the Marvel Universe and does NOT use any Marvel characters, you must also download the Creator-Owned agreement. PLEASE READ THESE DOCUMENTS CAREFULLY. These documents set forth the rights Marvel Enterprises Inc. ("Marvel") will have in your work. By signing these documents, you will be agreeing that Marvel owns all rights to the work being submitted by you and that you are perfoming the work on a work made for hire basis.'

Ok, how can something be creator owned AND work for hire at the same time? That's a contradiction, an oxymoron.

Travis W. Howard

05-13-2003, 03:51 PM

Good luck on retooling your character. Especially if you've publically stated it.

Once it's in with Marvel, you can pretty much say goodbye to publishing it elsewhere. You still can, but if it catches on, or anything of that sort, you've found yourself a nice legal battle to fight.

Which would kill said comic, as legal battles aren't something you can juggle comic creation with generally.

-T

Julio Diaz

05-13-2003, 04:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jason A. Quest:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Julio Diaz:
So where's the obligatory Kool-Aid joke, while you're at it?<hr /></blockquote>I guess its off with your sense of humor.

Geez... what is it about CrossGen that people turn nasty the second someone dares to say anything slightly funny about them? You trying to prove the "cult" jokes right? If not, lighten up.

And I wasn't even poking fun of CG, dude. I was making a light-hearted joke about the people who think CG is awful because they expect proper hygeine there. How is that making fun of CG?

And getting back to the original point, the fact that CrossGen has made a couple exceptions doesnt change the fact I was stating, that CrossGen doesn't take freelance series pitches for the Sigilverse, especially not from nobodies like him or me.<hr /></blockquote>Fair 'nuff. I jumped to conclusions because too many people bash CrossGen unfairly. You say that wasn't your intent, I've no reason to disbelieve you. Please accept my apology.

I don't know that CrossGen wouldn't consider a great pitch for a "Sigilverse" title, though they might ask that person to move to Tampa. I've never heard definitively one way or the other. Certainly, it would seem easier to break in there through Code 6, though.

Todd VerBeek

05-13-2003, 04:21 PM

Here's the way it works (as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong):

If Epic agrees to publish your series, they'll pay you $500 up-front to close the deal and legally obligate you to deliver. Under the Work-For-Hire contract, they then own the story and characters. After that, they'll pay $8K/issue, out of which the writer is expected to pay the artists, because the contract is only between Epic and the writer. Marvel also promises to pay as-yet-unspecified bonuses if it sells really well or gets licenced to other media.

I suspect that the monetary terms will be different in the promised Creator-Owned contract, because Marvel wouldn't own the characters or story afterward, and probably wouldn't be willing to pay as much in that case. (ManOfTheAtom: As has been discussed here before, the Epic web site is simply incorrect; series proposals can be either Work-For-Hire or Creator-Owned. One hopes they'll fix this when the actual documents show up.)

What Roman might have been confused by is the fact that Image handles non-studio books very differently. Image operates more like a co-op, charging creators a fee ($1K, I've heard) for the use of their publishing and distribution infrastructure. The benefit to the creator is that whatever money the book makes is all theirs (not Image's), and if someone wants to licence the material, the creator still owns the work and gets 100% of that. And at any time the creator can pick up their toys and go play somewhere else if they want.

In summary:
= Work-For-Hire Marvel/Epic should pay fairly well up-front, but can't be counted on to pay much more if it sells well, and you give up ownership.
= Creator-Owned Marvel/Epic remains to be seen.
= Image doesn't pay at all up-front, but offers the greatest potential income if it sells well, and you keep ownership.

roman

05-13-2003, 04:27 PM

Thank you very much for clearing that up for me. I just read it the wrong way. That is a very good deal.

"Roman lettuce taste so good"

05-13-2003, 04:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
I suspect that the monetary terms will be different in the promised Creator-Owned contract, because Marvel wouldn't own the characters or story afterward, and probably wouldn't be willing to pay as much in that case. <hr /></blockquote>Then it's important to wait till those guidelines come out before anyone submits anything original...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
(ManOfTheAtom: As has been discussed here before, the Epic web site is simply incorrect; series proposals can be either Work-For-Hire or Creator-Owned. One hopes they'll fix this when the actual documents show up.)<hr /></blockquote>Ok, tell me this: in a creator owned project, who has the final word on what happens in the story, editorial control, Marvel or the writer?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
Image operates more like a co-op, charging creators a fee ($1K, I've heard) for the use of their publishing and distribution infrastructure.<hr /></blockquote>Wow, it used to be $5k. Do they ask for that in advance or after the book is sold? With Image what does the writer have to pay besides production (penciler, inker, colorist, letterer, supplies)?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
 The benefit to the creator is that whatever money the book makes is all theirs (not Image's), and if someone wants to licence the material, the creator still owns the work and gets 100% of that. And at any time the creator can pick up their toys and go play somewhere else if they want.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, that's what I like about Image.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd VerBeek:
= Creator-Owned Marvel/Epic remains to be seen.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah. Once they come out I might be willing to reconsider submitting or not, it depends on a few things like editorial control and ownership.

Jason A. Quest

05-13-2003, 04:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Julio Diaz:
[I don't know that CrossGen wouldn't consider a great pitch for a "Sigilverse" title, though they might ask that person to move to Tampa.<hr /></blockquote>I wish I'd said that.

Oh wait. I did. :)

Todd VerBeek

05-13-2003, 05:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Then it's important to wait till those guidelines come out before anyone submits anything original...<hr /></blockquote>You can't submit anything (creator-owned or work-for-hire) without one of those contracts, so that shouldn't be a problem. {smile}

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ok, tell me this: in a creator owned project, who has the final word on what happens in the story, editorial control, Marvel or the writer?<hr /></blockquote>I can't speak for the terms of this as-yet-unseen contract with Epic, but typically the creator would have complete control over the content. The publisher would have the final word whether or not to publish it, however; that's standard. In practise, if the publisher had a problem with the content, they'd probably ask the creator to change it. In the worst case scenario, they'd end up playing "chicken", with the publisher threatening to dump the book, and the creator threatening to take it elsewhere.

It's conceivable that Marvel's legal dept might draft a contract that leaves ownership in the hands of the creator but gives Marvel a licence to modify it before publishing. Something to watch for, I suppose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Wow, it used to be $5k. Do they ask for that in advance or after the book is sold? With Image what does the writer have to pay besides production (penciler, inker, colorist, letterer, supplies)?<hr /></blockquote>I could easily be wrong about the figure I gave, which is why I stated it the way I did. (Never assume that hearsay is correct, especially if your other sources contradict it.)

I can only guess about the specific payment terms, but I suspect they'd want at least some of it in advance, and the rest either upon publication or within a set period of time (such as 30 days) afterward.

I can't even guess about the other terms. I'd have to be actually negotiating with Image before I started worrying about that level of detail.

J. Allen Harris

05-13-2003, 10:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D.J. Coffman is your daddy:
Heeeeey wasnt this a Tv show in the 80's---- HAH!_ Just kidding man! hehehe--<hr /></blockquote>You might've been joking, but Nowhere Man WAS a name of a series that aired in the second year of UPN after Star Trek Voyager on Mondays in fall '95. It was kind of like a sci-fi-like Fugitive.

Just coincidental.

Philip_Starsmore

05-14-2003, 09:28 AM

I just hope this EPIC thing doesn't turn marvels success in recent years into a huge falure.

This <a href="http://www.phoenix-gate.com" target="_blank">Web Site</a> is cool. Check it out!

Alex Segura Jr.

05-14-2003, 12:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Harry Tzvi Keusch:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Remember he did sing about “Magneto and Titanium Man, with Crimson Dynamo along for the ride.” <hr /></blockquote>What Paul McCartney song has that line in it?<hr /></blockquote>"Magneto And Titanium Man" from the album Venus and Mars.

Yeah, so what? I listen to Wings. So sue me.

Alex

Julio Diaz

05-14-2003, 12:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jason A. Quest:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Julio Diaz:
[I don't know that CrossGen wouldn't consider a great pitch for a "Sigilverse" title, though they might ask that person to move to Tampa.<hr /></blockquote>I wish I'd said that.

Oh wait. I did. :) <hr /></blockquote>While I may have overreacted in my protest, you originally implied they would require anyone working on "Sigilverse" titles to move to Tampa and work out of the offices. And I specifically pointed out examples where that is not the case. And I can't believe I forgot the best example of all:

George Perez, while a full employee of CrossGen, and while working on a "Sigilverse" title (SOLUS), does not work out of the offices, and doesn't even live in Tampa.

I respect that you didn't intend to bash, but your statement wasn't wholly correct, either.