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MattBrady
04-22-2003, 09:39 AM
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<center>A THOUSAND FLOWERS</center><center>Comics, Pop Culture, and the World Outside</center><center>Installment 16</center><center>by Stuart Moore</center>

Forty Years

1. Able to Leap

The beginning: 1938. Action Comics #1. “I know I haven’t had any experience, sir, but still I think I’d make a good reporter.” A crusader: fights for the little guy in costume and out. “What manner of being are you?” “Save the questions.” Straight outta Cleveland: two young kids and a dream. Born of the Depression, fired by the anger of the little guy in a rapidly-industrializing world. Protecting miners from the rich bosses who endanger their lives. Destroying slums so the city will have to rebuild them. An inspiration.

Public consciousness: radio shows & animation in the ‘40s. The glorious Fleischer cartoons, masterpieces of design and movement, made at great cost. Movie serials 1948, 1950. Atom Man. George Reeves. The TV show: crucial. 1953-1958. Everyone knows him now. More cartoons keep him out there, throughout the ‘60s and ‘70s. Filmation. Super Friends.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/supesspideypanel.jpg" width="207" height="176" align="left">He’s the establishment now, the postwar defender of the American way. His priorities have shifted; he plays by the rules, obeys the law. And America likes him that way.

The big movie: 1978. Forty years from his creation. General Zod. Margot Kidder. Make time run backwards. Can you read my mind?

2. One More Guy for the Dance

The beginning: 1962. Amazing Fantasy #15. “Mommy! Look at the man walking up the side of a building!” A normal high-school kid -- but he calls himself a man. “That masked character may be just what I’ve been looking for.” The Vulture. J. Jonah Jameson. Doctor Octopus. Driven by guilt, he becomes a quipster. The modern teen, adrift in a postwar world. Don’t want to be like your parents, like all those villains. (Ever notice how all his early villains are older than him?) But it’s tough.

Public consciousness: cartoons in the late ‘60s. Repetitive animation -- the same shots, swinging on the webbing, over and over and over again. Great theme song, though. Ghastly live-action show in the ‘70s, but somehow everybody remembers it. Blue-and-red flashing spider-sense, Jameson on a go-cart. More cartoons in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Firestar, Iceman. Iceman?

Parker’s not in high school anymore -- he’s grown up. But he’s still got problems. No money, the identity thing. And the guilt, always the guilt. We can still relate.

The big movie: 2002. Forty years exactly. Tobey and Kirsten. Just like the man from Krypton, everybody knows him now. And it took this long, this many cartoons and TV shows and hundreds and hundreds of comics.

Is it the same for all of them?

3. Winged Figure of Vengeance

The beginning: 1939. Detective Comics #27. “A very lovely fairy-tale, Commissioner, indeed.” Rich man not satisfied with his wealth: driven, spurred on by the deaths of his parents, to rid the world of evil. “Leaves Joker in Front of Police Station, Drives Away.” Bob Kane like the Bruce Wayne of the comics world: my boy, my boy, just trust me…Bill Finger like Alfred behind the scenes. All the dark pulp heroes distilled into one, obsessed night-prowler…wanted by the police, ruthless and uncompromising. What we’d all want to be if we were filthy rich and a little touched.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/batmanserial.jpg" width="295" height="289" align="right">Public consciousness: Robin softens the character’s edge…serials in the ’40s. No action to speak of in the ’50s, but the comic chugged on. Arguably the comic’s weakest period…did that inhibit outside licensing? Probably not. Clark Kent’s ’50s comics stories weren’t too exciting, either. More likely the serials weren’t regarded well…

Then BAM! POW! the late ’60s TV show and he’s a phenomenon. Short-lived, but that’s television (and high camp) for you. Cartoons in the ‘60s and ’70s…they even dredge up Bat-Mite for the requisite “cute” quotient of ‘70s Saturday AM fare.

The late ’80s…Dark Knight Returns, that rare animal: a comic book that breaks out completely into the mass media. Now he’s more extreme than ever, an icon for the hip-hop scene. Kids shave the backs of their heads into bat-symbols. It’s bubbling up. It’s all out there.

The big movie: 1989. Michael Keaton -- odd casting, but he’s fun, and Jack Nicholson is perfect. More important, the film synthesizes the different forms of the character -- it’s played straight, but there’s a sly humor, a direct link to Adam West and the bat-poles. It took fifty years, this time. Why? Look back to the fifties. Somehow he lost a decade there, playing around with giant pennies in his cave. But once the TV show hit, the cycle picked right up again.

4. For a Hamburger Today

The beginning: Back, before any of the others: 1928. Thimble Theatre and Castor Oyl. “Hey there! Are you a sailor?” “’Ja think I’m a cowboy?” Tough as nails, a proletarian hero made for the lawless world of the Depression to come. The Whiffle Hen. Wimpy. “Avast there, ya swab! I’M takin’ Olive Oyl!”

Public consciousness: Cartoons, cartoons, cartoons -- a constant string, from 1933 through the ‘60s, and more variations in the ‘70s. A tough guy (literally) to handle in live-action, especially pre-CGI. But he was always out there.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/flowers/popeyefilm.jpg" width="350" height="240" align="left">The big movie: 1980. Fifty-two years this time, and it wasn’t a big success -- in fact, it might have killed the property. By the time I published a book of daily strips by underground comics auteur Bobby London in 1988, the strip appeared in fewer than a dozen U.S. papers. (It ran in New York, but only in Spanish.) Why?

Somewhere, the old sailor lost his appeal -- he became a dated icon, like his contemporary Betty Boop, rather than a perennial. Maybe a dirty, uncouth, rough man of the sea just doesn’t speak to the 21st century. And, after all, he only yam what he yam.

5. The Human Race Is Not Yet Ready

The beginning: 1963, two years into Marvel’s revitalization. Can’t call it The Mutants -- people won’t understand that word. “The moment is at hand.” Cyclops, Angel, Beast, Iceman, Marvel Girl. The first of many. Unlike the other comics, this isn’t about one man. It’s a meditation on an idea -- the oppressed, the victims of prejudice, the secretly superior. “Remember, we are homo superior! We are born to rule the earth!”

Public consciousness: Very little for more than ten years, while the book limps along, bi-monthly. At first it seems like the one-too-many for Stan & Jack to fit into their schedule. Then musical creative teams. It always has its fans, like that weird alt-rock band that’s never going to crack the charts. Reduced to reprints 1970; various interesting guest appearances, a Beast spinoff, and repeated rumors of resurrection.

Then 1975: Revival, with an international cast. Len Wein (briefly), Chris Claremont, Dave Cockrum, and (later) John Byrne make it the hottest title in comics. The core concept hasn’t changed, but this time it clicks -- partly because of the creative team and partly because of the zeitgeist. Comics tend to be a little behind the mainstream in reflecting social issues; by the mid-’70s, this issue had filtered down enough to strike a chord in the audience. (But don’t discount the creative team. They were young, talented, and enthusiastic, and they pulled out all the stops.)

Through the ‘80s, comics became a pop culture phenomenon -- and Professor X led the pack. High-rated cartoon show in the ‘90s, which reflected the complexity of the comic’s plot threads. An entire generation learned about the Phoenix Force, the Imperial Guard, and Apocalypse without ever having to read a comic book.

The big movie: 2000. Thirty-seven years -- but a different pattern. A very slow start, but once the book hit, it picked up speed fast. As with the caped crusader, a growing public awareness of comics and closer ties with Hollywood pushed the mutants along, faster and faster, inexorably to stardom.

6. Forty years?

It’s an average, a round number that happens to apply, exactly, to the flagship characters of both major comics companies. They’re created, they bubble up, and eventually they get to a point where the average pop-culture-oriented person knows them. If they survive that long, they’re ready for the big screen. If the movie’s any good, they’ll live on. (How many versions of the Batman animated series have we seen since 1989?)

If not, well…comics are cheap to produce. The characters can bide their time there, month after month, till their big shot comes. A comfort to the Fantastic Four…

**

Because I haven’t run a bio for a while: Stuart Moore has been a writer, a comics editor for Vertigo and Marvel Knights, a kitchen worker, a book editor, and the nighttime manager of the Lawrenceville, NJ Woolworth's curtain department. He has won the Will Eisner award for Best Editor 1996 and the Don Thompson Award for Favorite Editor 1999. Sadly, there’s no going back to Woolworth’s…but that hasn’t been a problem yet, because of…

My current comics work: May 3rd is Free Comic Book Day, and the fine people at Dark Horse are giving away a great-looking book called ROCKET COMICS: IGNITE, which features a special 10-page stand-alone preview story of LONE, my entry into the new Rocket Comics line, along with two other great stories. More information at <a href="http://www.rocketcomics.net" target="_blank">http://www.rocketcomics.net</a> and <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000094" target="_blank">http://www.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000094</a> . Also: The beautiful trade paperback collection of ZENDRA: HEART OF FIRE, my epic science fiction series from Penny-Farthing Press, is out now; ask for it by name! And coming soon: announcements about projects from three other companies -- keep an eye on my message board at <a href="http://www.joequesada.com." target="_blank">http://www.joequesada.com.</a> See you in 14 days…or forty years…

Michael
04-22-2003, 10:52 AM
So, Stuart,

That's an interesting gathering of information, but what conclusions do you draw from it? Why so long? Is it generational cycles? Does it take that long for the people who read the books as kids to grow up and want (or the movie people to grow up to direct/write/produce) a movie?? Or is it simply a fact of how media in the US works? Or is it a case of technology being able to replicate the comic characters?

Of course, as you mention, Supes and Bats showed up in the movies much earlier as serials, so does that undermine the 40 year "theory"? But I guess you're more precisely talking about break-through moments for these characters (although certainly not for Popeye - of course the movie stank).

basement dweller
04-22-2003, 12:37 PM
So Stuart how long till we see "when curtain managers attack on Fox"?

Taylor Porter
04-22-2003, 01:17 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Michael:
<strong>That's an interesting gathering of information, but what conclusions do you draw from it? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I find myself asking this same question every other Tuesday.

Larry Young
04-22-2003, 01:25 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I find myself asking this same question every other Tuesday.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's OK to draw your own conclusions from an article, instead of waiting to be led around by the nose.

L.

NerveTonic
04-22-2003, 01:29 PM
Less than 40 years, yet pretty successful:
Swamp Thing
The Crow
Ghost World
Inter Man (tba)
From Hell
Men in Black
Mystery Men
Road to Perdition

Far more than 40 years and well-known, yet conspicuously never successful as films:
The Shadow (sorta comics)
The Phantom
Captain America
Wonder Woman
Captain Marvel
Hooty

I think Stuart's 40-year dialectic is more Nostradamus than Hegel. I don't find this observation useful or consistent.

I can't even find a way to connect this topic back to the War in Iraq.

Taylor Porter
04-22-2003, 01:38 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Larry Young:
<strong>It's OK to draw your own conclusions from an article, instead of waiting to be led around by the nose.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It certainly is, but I don't find that Mr. Moore gives me enough information to draw any conclusions. I'm not suggesting he have a paragraph headed with bold letters declaring "This Is The Point Of The Article!", but I do think he could be a little clearer on why he is presenting this particular information. I'm not saying his articles are bad, just that I'm often left wondering why he bothered to bring up these subjects.

Raphe Cheli
04-22-2003, 02:24 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NerveTonic:
<strong>I can't even find a way to connect this topic back to the War in Iraq.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

HA! That's great! I nearly spat out my soda onto the monitor!

OM
04-22-2003, 02:50 PM
...An preface to Stuart: Ignore your detractors, because from what I've seen so far they're just waving their banners of discontent in a rather banal attempt to improve their own self-esteem. You've got my respect for your writings, as they echo some of my own postings over the years. If these twits can't comprehend your message unless you spoon-feed it to them, fuck'em and let them starve to death as Darwin would have it.

...Speaking of someone perched rectally on the flagpole flying his own banner of discontent:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Taylor Porter:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Larry Young:
<strong>It's OK to draw your own conclusions from an article, instead of waiting to be led around by the nose.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It certainly is, but I don't find that Mr. Moore gives me enough information to draw any conclusions. I'm not suggesting he have a paragraph headed with bold letters declaring "This Is The Point Of The Article!", but I do think he could be a little clearer on why he is presenting this particular information. I'm not saying his articles are bad, just that I'm often left wondering why he bothered to bring up these subjects.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Once again, Taylor bitches just to bitch. Free association - AKA "brainstorming" - is a classic method of idea exchange, and helps those involved actually conceive new and different concepts while attempting to link together the ideas that are tossed about. This is <u>exactly</u> what Stuart did, and I found it very refreshing when compared to the usual "lead the Joe Punchclocks and Ethyl Soapsjunkies and Little Timmy Marvelzombies by the rings we placed thru their noses" hype.

Perhaps you should have spent more time paying attention to the old bat in front of the chalkboard when she explained this than reading some lame-assed Spider-Wimp book like a Marvel Zombie, Taylor. Otherwise, you wouldn't have missed this one. It's really a no-brainer...

Taylor Porter
04-22-2003, 03:04 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>Perhaps you should have spent more time paying attention to the old bat in front of the chalkboard when she explained this than reading some lame-assed Spider-Wimp book like a Marvel Zombie, Taylor. Otherwise, you wouldn't have missed this one. It's really a no-brainer...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know, I'd be a lot more likely to take you seriously if you didn't insult everyone who disagreed with you. I see your point, but calling me a Marvel Zombie is a little uncalled for (especially considering that I don't buy any Marvel comics, and haven't for almost a year).

You are right, though that "Free association - AKA "brainstorming" - is a classic method of idea exchange" and if Mr. Moore's brainstorming works for you, great. It just doesn't work that well for me. As I've said, my intent was not to bitch or to condemn this article, just to make the point that it doesn't work for me. I fail to see why that makes me a twit.

And look, you made me forget my promise to ignore you....

L'Zoril
04-22-2003, 08:12 PM
Good article Stuart. And the x-men cartoon stuff is so true. I know hundreds of people who know everything about logan, the phoenix force and apocalypse and never even knew that x-men was a comic book.

HulkSmashNow
04-22-2003, 10:08 PM
Comics characters like Superman and Batman, and to a lesser extent, Spider-Man, that remain in the public eye for a majority of their existence and enter into popular culture are more likely to have more successful, mainstream films.

Dick Tracy, The Shadow, and The Phantom failed because their target audiences, young people, had little to know knowledge of the characters. Daredevil's fairly good box office also shows that it is harder for more obscure characters to reach a wide, non-comics reading public. However, X-Men sort of stood that theorem on its head. X-Men was never that popular among the mainstream, but somehow, more than likely, due to the high quality of the material and the finished film, pushed it forward into popularity.

Now, all of this begs the question, will The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, The Punisher, The Fantastic Four, and other comics-based films be successful with their not-as-widely-known characters? It's hard to say. The Punisher will probably do Daredevil or Blade I & II-type business. The Fantastic Four will make X-Men (the first one) money. LOTG, on the other hand, has the most to lose. Most American movie-goers don't know who Allan Quartermain, Dorian Grey, or even, Mina Murray are. They are vaguely familiar with Capt. Nemo (but don't know that he is an Indian Sikh). Tom Sawyer is well-known, but not as an adult. Probably, the most famous are Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde and the Invisible Man, and who knows just how few have actually read the original H.G. Wells novels?

Yet, I may have put too little faith in the American people and hopefully, they will prove me wrong.

MindTricked
04-22-2003, 10:32 PM
Fascinating read. Hmmm... the X-Men toon from the 90s helped get me back into comics after a 9-year absence... hell, that toon's "Phoenix Saga" made me by the TPB from Waldenbooks not long after I saw it. Of course, I'd known about the X-Men, Wolverine, and Phoenix, but I didn't collect the stuff until '96 (not counting the TPBs of Phoenix and X-tinction Agenda). X-Men hit a lot faster than pretty much everything aside from Superman, if you discount the original run and start fresh from '75 - which explains why every other Marvel book has an 'X' in the title <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

You know, if the original Fantastic Four movie had been released *seriously considering downloading it off of KaZaa*, I wonder what kind of damage would have been done to the franchise. Punisher is getting a second chance at the mainstream, but I doubt FF would have gotten one had Corman's "vision" been let free upon a free-thinking world.

40 years... Battle Chasers # 9 should be out around that time :D .

Oh - and I liked the Popeye movie damnit! (Of course, I was six or seven when I first saw it....)

samnoir
04-23-2003, 12:53 AM
Wow! You were responsible for the Popeye collection? I picked it up as a youngster in the eighties remaindered for a dollar at a bookstore.

Never read Popeye before that and I was suprised how contemporary it felt in it's satire. Found all the old Seger and Sagindorf (sp?) strips after that.

Is Popeye still being published in comic strip form? I recall running across an odd comic with "realistic" art a few years back. I think Peter David wrote it.

flutegirlfanrocks
04-23-2003, 06:27 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Less than 40 years, yet pretty successful:
Swamp Thing
The Crow
Ghost World
Inter Man (tba)
From Hell
Men in Black
Mystery Men
Road to Perdition

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lets not forget The Teenage Mutant Ninja Tutles :D

Stuart Moore
04-23-2003, 10:13 AM
The Popeye book I published (at St. Martin's Press) was MONDO POPEYE, by underground cartoonist Bobby London, creator of DIRTY DUCK. Bobby did some amazing stuff on POPEYE. He was eventually fired for doing a series that hinged on a misunderstanding that Olive Oyl had had an abortion. (No kidding.)

And to clarify one thing: I wasn't talking about how long it took for any comic to become a film -- just characters that could be considered iconic. Ghost World doesn't fall into that category, for instance; it's "just" a good work of fiction adapted into a good movie. Wonder Woman and Captain America might qualify...but I think they're both a little tricky to adapt straight. We may see, one of these days, though.

Best,
Stuart

Jeffbot
04-23-2003, 11:06 AM
Aw, Popeye's just biding his time. Great creations like him don't stay down for long.

Jim Kosmicki
04-23-2003, 07:06 PM
The Popeye movie suffered from people's pre-conceived notions, and still does.

I went and saw it when it first came out, but I also knew Segar's work a bit (I'd found some old reprints here and there at the time). The audience only knew Popeye from the cartoons (and mostly from the really bad cartoons that came after Fleischer). Ham Gravy? who's he? I still argue that if you know the original source material, the movie works for the most part (until the ending which is clearly a forced attempt to salvage the movie into the blockbuster that it was never going to be).

The music also created a problem. Personally, I like it. I don't love it, but I like it (I have the soundtrack on vinyl -- or I did the last time I checked on my vinyl). It fits with Robert Altman's vision of film -- it's not meant to be showstopper Liza Minelli type typical show tunes. Joss Whedon has his mainly non-singing actors sing and he's declared a genius -- Altman was just there 30 years early.

the other main perception problem was at the studio -- this was a co-production of Disney and Paramount (and probably led to a lot of the later bleed from Paramount to Disney that led to the Eisner era). So it had TWO studios banking on it to be a mega-blockbuster. Altman had ONE mega-blockbuster, and it was a fluke (M*A*S*H). Many of his other movies are considered important but even Nashville was not much at the box office IIRC. They had a hot TV star (the guy who played Mork from Ork), but then dared to have him try to act (and he does a pretty good job too). Remember that Robin Williams didn't have anything close to a hit movie until Good Morning Vietnam quite a few years later (for Disney and Eisner, not so coincidentally).

Now the perception is somehow that this movie was horrible, one of the biggest bombs ever. According to IMDB, it cost $20 million and grossed $50 million in the US alone. it made back its money -- it just didn't become the huge blockbuster that it was supposed to become. But it now has this reputation as this huge bomb, and people who watch it tend to watch it having already decided that it's bad, so any little problem that they have with it gets magnified and "proves" the point of its horribleness.

Sorry for the length -- off the soapbox now, but this is a good movie if you know the source material OR go into it FORGETTING everything you know about Popeye from the mass media.

Shackmania
04-23-2003, 11:08 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Taylor Porter:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>Perhaps you should have spent more time paying attention to the old bat in front of the chalkboard when she explained this than reading some lame-assed Spider-Wimp book like a Marvel Zombie, Taylor. Otherwise, you wouldn't have missed this one. It's really a no-brainer...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know, I'd be a lot more likely to take you seriously if you didn't insult everyone who disagreed with you. I see your point, but calling me a Marvel Zombie is a little uncalled for (especially considering that I don't buy any Marvel comics, and haven't for almost a year).

You are right, though that "Free association - AKA "brainstorming" - is a classic method of idea exchange" and if Mr. Moore's brainstorming works for you, great. It just doesn't work that well for me. As I've said, my intent was not to bitch or to condemn this article, just to make the point that it doesn't work for me. I fail to see why that makes me a twit.

And look, you made me forget my promise to ignore you....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Taylor, it's just OM's way. He can't write without insulting someone. Such a shame too, because I think that deep down he is really a ni...oh wait, I got confused. I was thinking of Sahdham... Never mind.

OM
04-24-2003, 03:44 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jim Kosmicki:
<strong>The Popeye movie suffered from people's pre-conceived notions, and still does.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...What the movie suffered from more than anything else was that it was a musical with a soundtrack whose music overpowered the vocals. It's really not a bad soundtrack, and actually one of Harry Nilsen's better works(*) in his latter years, before his desire to drink for himself and his deceased former boozing buddy John Lennon sent him to a far too early grave.

Seriously, outside of He's...Large. or the Popeye theme, can anyone understand more than a couple of words of most of the songs?

(*) I still think he should have schmaltzed a bit and adapted Without You to the film. The concept of Robin Williams doing a cover of that classic in Popeyespeak would have been hysterical!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jim Kosmicki:
<strong>Altman had ONE mega-blockbuster, and it was a fluke (M*A*S*H). Many of his other movies are considered important but even Nashville was not much at the box office IIRC. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Then again, when you look at the box office take for Nashville and compare it to Countdown, adjusting for the dollar values almost 10 years apart or so, the latter film took in almost double the gross. If Altman's going to be remembered for something besides M*A*S*H, it'll be Countdown. He managed to capture a great deal of the actual "look'n'feel" of what the Astronaut Corps was all about circa 1967, long before Tom Wolfe even had a clue that the Stuff existed, Right, Left or Wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>Taylor, it's just OM's way. He can't write without insulting someone.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Hey, I just prefer to call a spade for what it is. If the truth hurts Taylor - or anyone else, for that matter - tough shit.

Shackmania
04-25-2003, 06:19 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
[
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>Taylor, it's just OM's way. He can't write without insulting someone.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Hey, I just prefer to call a spade for what it is. If the truth hurts Taylor - or anyone else, for that matter - tough shit.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would send this to you privately but alas no address. I’m not interested in an online debate about propriety; however, you can’t seem to tell the difference between honest and insulting. It’s not necessary to be nasty when you are being truthful but nasty is almost always the choice you make. Maybe you think it’s funny, maybe, despite your opinions and obvious total knowledge of everything your just not as sophisticated as you think you are and you don’t realize how insulting and nasty you are. BTW just ‘cause someone doesn’t like your insults it DOES NOT mean that they are weak or a wuss or otherwise can’t take it. It may just mean that they are a better person than you.
Shackmania

mc (_(\/)_)achete
04-26-2003, 12:49 AM
have you guys seen the new movie, ANGER MANAGEMENT?

just heard it was funny.

:cool:

OM
04-26-2003, 07:40 AM
...Take notes, kids: The inspiration for Ned Flanders is amongst us.

[dripping_sarcasm(bleeding(on))]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>I would send this to you privately but alas no address. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...My philosophy is that if you can't say something to me in public, don't bother. Unless it's matters of National Security, or you're sending me information that the CAIB hasn't released to the public with regards to the loss of Columbia.

But I digress...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>I’m not interested in an online debate about propriety; </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Then why post this lame attempt at soapbox preaching? Did you really think that by popping off and denouncing me that I'd run off with my tail between my legs, or suddenly change my style of posting and become the national poster child for Politeness of Biblical Proportions?

Just what were you hoping to accomplish with your Miss Manners impersonation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>however, you can’t seem to tell the difference between honest and insulting. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...I can tell just fine. thank you. After all, if I were being "insulting", I'd have already noted you were a pedantic misanthrope with delusions of moral superiority founded upon hypocrisy and premature senile dementia.

But since I'm not being "insulting", I'll just turn up the hysterical laughter a notch...

[hysterical_laughter_volume(11)]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>It’s not necessary to be nasty when you are being truthful but nasty is almost always the choice you make. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...I'm not one to play the "false niceties" game, where you smile and nod your head in mock approval, and keep your opinions to yourself. To me, that is pure hypocrisy, and if my style isn't to your liking, that's your problem, not mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>Maybe you think it’s funny, maybe, despite your opinions and obvious total knowledge of everything your just not as sophisticated as you think you are and you don’t realize how insulting and nasty you are. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[hysterical_laughter_volume(12)]

...Oh. I. Am. So. Hurt. What. Ever. Will. I. Do. To. Adjust. To. The. Shame?

[hysterical_laughter_volume(15)]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>BTW just ‘cause someone doesn’t like your insults it DOES NOT mean that they are weak or a wuss or otherwise can’t take it. It may just mean that they are a better person than you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...No, it means they either:

1) Have a thin skin.
2) Can't accept the truth.
3) Fail to get the joke.
4) Are a complete and total idiot.
5) None of the above, and are simply in "holier than thou" mode as a form of ego masturbation.
6) All of the above, and are simply in "holier than thou" mode as a form of ego masturbation.

...In any case, thanks for playing "Spot the Hypocrite". Don Pardo, tell this kuvekhestat tera'ngan ghuy'cha what he won!

That's right, OM! As today's winner, you get a new soapbox signed by Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, and a copy of your new book I'm Ok, You're Totally FUBAR'd, Pal! You also get a case of Turtle-Wax, and a supply of Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco-styled Rice Meal that used to be called a Treat until Political Correctness forced the company to change their marketing strategies. Now, stay tuned for "Jemas & Pals" on Newsarama Cable Access, right after this threateningly evil moderator bitch slap from Matt Brady!

Shackmania
04-26-2003, 12:36 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>...Take notes, kids: The inspiration for Ned Flanders is amongst us.

[dripping_sarcasm(bleeding(on))]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>I would send this to you privately but alas no address. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...My philosophy is that if you can't say something to me in public, don't bother. Unless it's matters of National Security, or you're sending me information that the CAIB hasn't released to the public with regards to the loss of Columbia.

But I digress...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>I’m not interested in an online debate about propriety; </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Then why post this lame attempt at soapbox preaching? Did you really think that by popping off and denouncing me that I'd run off with my tail between my legs, or suddenly change my style of posting and become the national poster child for Politeness of Biblical Proportions?

Just what were you hoping to accomplish with your Miss Manners impersonation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>however, you can’t seem to tell the difference between honest and insulting. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...I can tell just fine. thank you. After all, if I were being "insulting", I'd have already noted you were a pedantic misanthrope with delusions of moral superiority founded upon hypocrisy and premature senile dementia.

But since I'm not being "insulting", I'll just turn up the hysterical laughter a notch...

[hysterical_laughter_volume(11)]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>It’s not necessary to be nasty when you are being truthful but nasty is almost always the choice you make. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...I'm not one to play the "false niceties" game, where you smile and nod your head in mock approval, and keep your opinions to yourself. To me, that is pure hypocrisy, and if my style isn't to your liking, that's your problem, not mine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>Maybe you think it’s funny, maybe, despite your opinions and obvious total knowledge of everything your just not as sophisticated as you think you are and you don’t realize how insulting and nasty you are. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[hysterical_laughter_volume(12)]

...Oh. I. Am. So. Hurt. What. Ever. Will. I. Do. To. Adjust. To. The. Shame?

[hysterical_laughter_volume(15)]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>BTW just ‘cause someone doesn’t like your insults it DOES NOT mean that they are weak or a wuss or otherwise can’t take it. It may just mean that they are a better person than you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...No, it means they either:

1) Have a thin skin.
2) Can't accept the truth.
3) Fail to get the joke.
4) Are a complete and total idiot.
5) None of the above, and are simply in "holier than thou" mode as a form of ego masturbation.
6) All of the above, and are simply in "holier than thou" mode as a form of ego masturbation.

...In any case, thanks for playing "Spot the Hypocrite". Don Pardo, tell this kuvekhestat tera'ngan ghuy'cha what he won!

That's right, OM! As today's winner, you get a new soapbox signed by Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, and a copy of your new book I'm Ok, You're Totally FUBAR'd, Pal! You also get a case of Turtle-Wax, and a supply of Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco-styled Rice Meal that used to be called a Treat until Political Correctness forced the company to change their marketing strategies. Now, stay tuned for "Jemas & Pals" on Newsarama Cable Access, right after this threateningly evil moderator bitch slap from Matt Brady!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only reason to want to address you privatley is to not put the thread off subject.
Very Funny response. But it also shows your unwillingnes to look at yourself in the same critical light you look at others with. You threw lots of "insults" without onuce examining your own motives for your behavior. I do think that as long as you behave the way you do, your suggesting that people who don't behave like you makes them "holier than thou" is a compliment not an insult. Thank you.
Shackmania

OM
04-26-2003, 05:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>[Excessive quoted material snipped]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Was it necessary to quote the entire response in your reply? Did anyone ever explain that you should trim quotes appropriately?

The answer, obviously, is no.

...In any case, you need to come to terms with two things here:

1) You'll never change the way I post, Period.
2) You're wasting everybody's time by trying, especially since all you're doing is proving yourself a hypocrit.

...Oh, and one other thing: until you learn how to quote properly, don't bother posting. Unless you want to look like a clueless newbie.

See? Not one insult. Unless, of course, you take criticism the same as an insult. And if that's the case, that's your problem again, not mine...

Shackmania
04-27-2003, 08:39 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>[Excessive quoted material snipped]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Was it necessary to quote the entire response in your reply? Did anyone ever explain that you should trim quotes appropriately?

The answer, obviously, is no.

...In any case, you need to come to terms with two things here:

1) You'll never change the way I post, Period.
2) You're wasting everybody's time by trying, especially since all you're doing is proving yourself a hypocrit.

...Oh, and one other thing: until you learn how to quote properly, don't bother posting. Unless you want to look like a clueless newbie.

See? Not one insult. Unless, of course, you take criticism the same as an insult. And if that's the case, that's your problem again, not mine...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I don't consider criticicism an insult but you obviously do or you wouldn't keep responding the way you do; not just to me in this instance, but to most everyone most of the time. It seems that you resent any opinion that differs from your's. The problem is clearly with you.
Shackmania

OM
04-29-2003, 09:58 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>No, I don't consider criticicism an insult but you obviously do or you wouldn't keep responding the way you do; not just to me in this instance, but to most everyone most of the time. It seems that you resent any opinion that differs from your's. The problem is clearly with you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...In order:

1) I seriously doubt this, as what I clearly have presented as criticisms you have erroneously interpreted as insults.

2) I do not automatically "resent" any opinion that differs from mine. I simply refuse to tolerate the blatherings of the ignorant. There's quite a few people whose opinions differ from mine, and can present them in a logical, rational manner. I can accept their differences. But to ramble off like a demented dickwad with delusions of critical experience when one truly has not an angstrom's width of a clue to their name and expect me to accept their blatherings without question, that, son, is an insult to me that I refuse to allow to pass without redress.

3) No, the problem lies with you, not me. However, I'll give you a shot at presenting your arguements against me, provided you can provide credentials that show you do have some level of formal training in psychology outside of sleeping in your high school PSY101 class. Otherwise, your attempts to psychoanalyze me - who happens to have a degree in sociology with a minor in psychology and behavioral studies - have about as much validity as a blind man reporting what color the sky is.

Bottom line: You're dead wrong, and your banal attempts at playing "Arguement Clinic" aren't going to help your cause one iota. Deal with it and move on, because you're boring the hell out of myself, and probably everyone else as well.

Shackmania
04-29-2003, 11:12 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...In order:

1) I seriously doubt this, as what I clearly have presented as criticisms you have erroneously interpreted as insults.

...the blatherings of the ignorant. There's ...But to ramble off like a demented dickwad with delusions of critical experience when one truly has not an angstrom's width of a clue ...
credentials that show you do have some level of formal training in psychology outside of sleeping in your high school PSY101 class. Otherwise, your attempts to psychoanalyze me - who happens to have a degree in sociology with a minor in psychology and behavioral studies - have about as much validity as a blind man reporting what color the sky is.

Bottom line: You're dead wrong, and your banal attempts at playing "Arguement Clinic" aren't going to help your cause one iota. Deal with it and move on, because you're boring the hell out of myself, and probably everyone else as well.[/QUOTE]

That you can write the above and not see them as insulting words suggests that you are either delusional or lying. I suspect that you know how insulting words like that are, therfore I find it very sad that you chose to them. I don't have to have a degree in psychology to recognize insulting language. I don't have to give you my education to justify my opinion. Your haveing a psychology background does not justify using insulting language.

If I were truly boring you, you wouldn't keep returning to respond. On the assumption that you won't respond to this last missive, let me just say that I hope your life gets better.
Shackmania

OM
04-30-2003, 09:20 AM
...Before you post again, learn how to quote properly. The way you formatted your last reply confused who said what.

Of course, you'll claim that was an insult, but facts are facts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>I don't have to have a degree in psychology to recognize insulting language. I don't have to give you my education to justify my opinion. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Yes, you do. Especially in a forum where we're not face-to-face. Otherwise, without any sort of credentials to back up your claims, all of your so-called "analyses" of my nature are nothing more than ramblings, blatherings, and rantings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>Your haveing a psychology background does not justify using insulting language.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...At least I've had a background where I've learned to spell correctly. Using words like "haveing" doesn't help your attempts to prove you're a better person than I am, which apparently is your chief goal in life these days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shackmania:
<strong>If I were truly boring you, you wouldn't keep returning to respond. On the assumption that you won't respond to this last missive, let me just say that I hope your life gets better.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Again, in order:

1) Ah, but by simply ignoring you - Lord, if these forums only had killfiles - you'd declare that I capitulated and you had "won". Can't let you do that, now can I?

2) My life is absolutely fine. Not that the status of my life has really anything to do with our little arguement. Yours, on the other hand, has to be really bland, boring and banal if you think you've got to change my mannerisms. Clue: clean your own house before telling me how to clean mine, kid.

...In any case, you're still being a childish hypocrite, lamely attempting to disguise your own "holier-than-thou" stance behind a series of really weak naive facade, shrouded in droll false-niceties and other associated examples of pedantisms. It's not working other than to probably allow yourself the opportunity to masturbate your ego.

Hmmm, now that I think about it, your entire approach is nothing more than bullshit in sheep's clothing...

Shackmania
04-30-2003, 10:46 AM
Wow!
Such anger.
Any outside observer would assume you to be a deeply disturbed person.
I apologize. I clearly have hurt you and I never meant to do that, so please accept my apology.
Shackmania