JiC: LOOKING OVER THE JANUARY RACK

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/gothamcentral1.jpg" width="175" height="270" align="right" border="0">by Michael Sangiacomo

Television calls it counter-programming when you deliberately air a show completely different than the other stations are showing. Since everyone has heard about all the new titles and such coming from Marvel thanks to their back-to-back press conferences, few are talking about other books. So I’ll dip into the old review pile and piss everyone off.

Gotham Central #1, #2

It’s been said before, but you should be reading this book – if not for anything else, to see two writers and an artist finally ditching some of the silliness that has remained in the world of Gotham since the Adam West series.

Case in point - one thing that has always annoyed me about villains with freezing powers is the complete ignorance of science and common sense. Look, if Captain Cold freezes someone in a giant tidal wave of ice, THE GUY WILL DIE. Lack of oxygen, hypothermia equals death. He doesn’t revive when the ice melts.

The opening arc of Gotham Central looks at the police department’s ordinary boys and girls in blue dealing with an extraordinary villain, Freeze. In this taut adventure written by Ed Brubaker and Greg Rucka, Freeze is a stone cold killer. His victims don’t warm up and feel better with blankets and hot soup. The scene in the morgue on page four where police realize the full implications of Freeze’s power is very powerful. And sad.

Artist Michael Lark’s frequent reliance on eight panels per page means a lot of information in a single issue without sacrificing style or clarity. He’s a solid penciller on what is meant to be a writer’s book.

Dicks 2 #3

So what’s a “Spide” anyway? Must be an Irish or British thing since Garth Ennis’ character keeps calling his buddy is one and it cheeses him off.

This is a mature reader’s book for sure, lots of bad words and fart jokes and a couple of good lines. John McCrea’s unrestrained artwork is reminiscent of the Furry Freak Brothers, and I mean that in a good way. The whole book is pretty silly but with an actual plot about Penis Men taking over the world. Wait a minute. This can’t be a Garth Ennis comic. There’s not a single anal rape reference in the whole book!

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/killraven_4.jpg" width="175" height="261" align="left" border="0">Killraven #4

Hey, I want Marvel to use my quotes in their advertising blurbs, too! Following are a few that are tailor-made to slide just under the title:

Killraven hasn’t been this good in more than 20 years!
Malodorous Martians. Misguided mutants. Bad girls in skimpy leather. This book has it all!
Killraven is non-stop thrills and action from cover to cover!

Actually, Alan Davis and Mark Farmer are doing a fine job of refining and updating the classic series. Though quite a few folks had their hand in the original run back in Amazing Adventures, it was the words and pictures team of Don McGregor and P. Craig Russell that made my tentacles twitch. This retelling and revamping of a classic is solid sci-fi adventure, and a fun read that’s getting overlooked by a lot of Marvel fans because there’s not a Spider or an X on it.

The Best of the Bunch

Supergirl #78 and Amazing Spider-Man #49

Both books ask the same question: Will she stay or will she go?

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/DC/pic_lrgsg80cvr.jpg" width="175" height="261" align="right" border="0">Peter David said he had some cool plans for the final chapter of Supergirl, but I never expected anything like this. If he does what I think he may do (none of which I can talk about without screwing up the final few pages of #78) David will have my undying, everlasting, awe, admiration and gratitude.

After years of tediously complex plots about Earth Angels and double Supergirls, confusing plots and downright annoying secondary characters, David has redeemed himself. The last page of this issue, and the earlier revelations about the identity of the new/old Supergirl, made it all worthwhile. It’s going to be a long wait for the penultimate issue #79.
He can’t really do it, can he?

Writer J. Michael Straczynski said issue #50 of Amazing Spider-Man will resolve the question of Peter Parker and Mary Jane’s relationship. Issue #49 is a poignant, witty and satisfying story in a very Hollywood movie sort of way. I could hear the music swelling up in the
background. Now don’t take that to mean that something is resolved in this issue, no way.

The best testament to JMS’ writing is that I have no clue which way the marriage will go next month. And that is really cool. I can’t wait to be surprised.

Ironically, no matter what Straczynski does, at least half of the readers will hate it.

There’s a moral there somewhere.

Michael Sangiacomo is a statewide news reporter for the Plain Dealer newspaper in Cleveland, Ohio. His syndicated "Journey Into Comics" weekly column on the state of the comic book business, can be found in newspapers and at the Newsarama website. His monthly comic book column appears the first Saturday of each month in the Plain Dealer Arts page and is syndicated through Newhouse Newspapers. He also writes a twice-monthly audiobooks review column covering crime thrillers and mysteries that can be seen at <a href="http://www.audiobookstoday.com" target="_blank">www.audiobookstoday.com</a>

[Graeme McMillan]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>So what’s a “Spide” anyway? Must be an Irish or British thing since Garth Ennis’ character keeps calling his buddy is one and it cheeses him off.</strong><hr></blockquote>

A spide is what you call someone who has such a crap moustache that it looks like a spider has crawled onto their top lip and died.

So now you know.

[Jonas.Vesterlund]

Talking about KILLRAVEN and advertising. Has this book got ANY ad support from Marvel? It is probably the best book they have and instead they spend 1 or half a page every month in and out promoting the ULTIMATE line?

Why constantly push this line? It can't be all that sucessful if they constantly have to push it.
This is not yeat another anti-Ultimate books post. I really enjoy THE ULTIMATES but Marvels marketing strategies makes no sence.

KILLRAVEN really rocks!!! With movies like LORD OF THE RINGS and STAR WARS tearing up the box office....this would make a good movie!

[Jonathan]

[quote]Originally posted by Jonas.Vesterlund:
<strong>Talking about KILLRAVEN and advertising. Has this book got ANY ad support from Marvel? It is probably the best book they have and instead they spend 1 or half a page every month in and out promoting the ULTIMATE line?

Why constantly push this line? It can't be all that sucessful if they constantly have to push it.
This is not yeat another anti-Ultimate books post. I really enjoy THE ULTIMATES but Marvels marketing strategies makes no sence.

KILLRAVEN really rocks!!! With movies like LORD OF THE RINGS and STAR WARS tearing up the box office....this would make a good movie!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't say I really agree with you or Mike about Killraven, its pretty much standard fare. Alan isn't a bad writer or anything but his work can sometimes be a bit formulaic. When it comes to alien invasions I think League of Extraordinary Gentlemen does it better.

However, I love Alan Davis's artwork and he is still the only case where I would buy a book just on art alone.

His 2nd run on Excalibur was far better and I'm suprised that it hasn't been reprinted yet.
:p

[Hap Collins]

There's a moral there somewhere????

What the hell does that mean? Does it mean that half the audience could care less about the all new, all daring spider-totemed Spider-man? That, maybe, what JMS is doing on the book isn't all that great? That some people have tastes contrary to Mike's? That maybe issue #50 will be another c-tease and resolve nothing like Peter and MJ's meeting previously in JMS's run. I've tried to enjoy this book, but other than Aunt May finding out (which any other writer could've written, but wasn't allowed to) I find it to be hackneyed and dull and overly sentimental. Not to mention, that for a writer who supposedly has such a great take on the character, can any of you explain to me why in his first run JMS has Peter let a murderer go free? Hmmmm... anyone?!? Cause we all know how well that worked out the last time Peter let a criminal go free. Not letting bad guys go is like... Spider-man 101. It just isn't done. JMS is such a naked emperor. I've tried to enjoy his work (Midnight Nation, Rising Stars, Amazing, etc.) and I just don't see what the big deal is at all.

And as for Peter David's Supergirl story in #78, with regards to the ending... (without giving it away and while trying to not sound like the uber-dork that I am) at what point does that solution not cause reality to totally unravel?

[Hdefined]

In regards tgo JMS Spider-Man, I've picked up 4 of his issues: 30, 36, 38, 40. At no point was I hooked or given reason to stay. Now, I haven't read enough to go right ahead and bash his work, but it just didn't feel like Spider-Man. It felt MORE like Spider-Man than a lot of the 90's shlock (coughcoughMackiecough), but it didn't do anything for me. I'm not sure if I want to buy #50, as it seems pretty obvious they're getting back together. If the reviews of this book come out and go like "Whoa! This was totally a shock ending!" then I'll be interested, otherwise . . .. eh. It feels like they're still cleaning up Spider continuity. Let's bring out some real stories.

I don't have anything against the "spider-totem" either, it just doesn't sound that interesting.

Ok, wait. It seems a lot of people on newsarama don't like it when people make judgments OF previews based ON the previews and then say they won't buy the book. Well, tell me if you've heard this before . . .

Me: Hm, I saw that Terminator 3 preview. It didn't look interesting, it didn't show me anything I haven't seen anywhere else or might get excited about, I have a bad feeling it might not be good. I don't think I'm going to see it.

Newsarama folk: What? You can't judge the movie based on the preview. It hasn't even come out yet!

Me: I'm not judging the movie, I'm judging the preview, and it doesn't make me want to see the movie, so I don't think I'll see the movie.

Newsarama folk: But you have to see the movie to know whether it's good or not!

Me: But the preview is supposed to get you to want to see the movie, and it just didn't work for me. I don't HAVE to see the movie.

Newsarama folk: then you shouldn't be so negative about it since it hasn't come out yet.

Me: I can make any conclusion I want based on the preview, because it's trying to hook me and I'm HONESTLY NOT HOOKED.

Have you guys seen/heard this before? Sound familiar? Yeah, I thought so. Think about it.

[1.5]

i think what mike is saying is that everyone has their own (and sometimes VERY narrow minded) visions of what "their" super heroes should be like, and that when any writer makes a big decision that drastically changes a characters current status quo that at least half are gonan hate it because it doesnt vibe with what they think "their" super hero would do/should be. but im sure you all knew that

2nd asst to the lt. govenor of guam,
1.5

[Minute Man]

Hi,
I loved issue one of Gotham Central and the tone it took but was totally let down by issue two. Wasn't the whole point that the police force didn't want the Batman involved? I mean that is what they kept saying over & over again in issue one and then for the second issue to end the way it did. It undermined everything the book said it wanted to do. I went ahead and dropped the book.

[1.5]

Hdefined,
that was a very good and articulate arguement. and while i do think that movie trailers and comic previews are analogous, they are not exactly the same thing. I would make the argurment that trailers have a much easier job of bringing people in for the simple fact that more can be shown about the style/look/dynamic of the movie can be shown in trailers, also most movies have 2-4 different trailers where comics usually only have 1 preview.
Im not saying your wrong for telling people to get off others backs about making decisions to buy/jugde a book based on the preview. Just that i think your arguement might be slightly invalid because of the analogy

[jawaplumber]

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
<strong> Well, tell me if you've heard this before . . .

Me: Hm, I saw that Terminator 3 preview. It didn't look interesting, it didn't show me anything I haven't seen anywhere else or might get excited about, I have a bad feeling it might not be good. I don't think I'm going to see it.

Have you guys seen/heard this before? Sound familiar? Yeah, I thought so. Think about it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, I'm sure I'm opening a LARGE can of worms here, but here goes..let me just say, to begin, that you make a good point about needing to be hooked by a preview in order to shell out your money and that others shouldn't bust your chops for simply saying you aren't hooked by something. However, in my personal experience with giving crap to others when they prejudge something based on a preview or a teaser, it's when their statement isn't as fair or intelligently presented as "...it didn't show me anything I haven't seen anywhere else or might get excited about, I have a bad feeling it might not be good..." When I myself have questioned someone for prejudging something based on a preview, it's when they say, for example, "this (preview) sucked, nothing new here, it's gonna suck, I could care less" It's when they say "it's gonna suck" that burns my biscuits, and more often than not, those who prejudge something phrase their posts in such a manner (and often do so with a ton of spelling mistakes, but that's just me being nitpicky, heh). They rarely ever use the words "might" or "maybe" or the like, and these are the reasons why these folks come off like they think they are omniscient and holier-than-thou, only making themselves look ignorant and stupid. So, my brother, I ask YOU to think about it :) Peace...

[Jeffbot]

[quote]Originally posted by Hap Collins:
<strong>There's a moral there somewhere????

What the hell does that mean?</strong><hr></blockquote>

He's referring to the "catch 22" situation that's going to result from the ending of the storyline. Regardless of how the story concludes, a lot of people will like it, a lot of people will hate it.

Kind of "you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't."

[Kabukiman]

[quote]Originally posted by Minute Man:
<strong>Hi,
I loved issue one of Gotham Central and the tone it took but was totally let down by issue two. Wasn't the whole point that the police force didn't want the Batman involved? I mean that is what they kept saying over & over again in issue one and then for the second issue to end the way it did. It undermined everything the book said it wanted to do. I went ahead and dropped the book.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As much as I hate to overuse the cliche, I just think you missed the point entirely. The book is not about cops, it's about cops in Gotham City. They want to be like regular cops, they want to think that they CAN solve all the Gotham City crime and see that the offender is brought to justice. But, there comes a point when they know, they just know that they can't! As much as they hate him for taking away their successes, they know that they need Batman. They hate him because they know that he does much of what they are supposed to do, while at the same time they know that he has to help.

[theodoros]

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
[QB](coughcoughMackiecough)
QB]<hr></blockquote>

If Howard Mackie was free from the editors to do the stories he wanted he would be the writer of ASpiderman today. He is far better than JMStrawsomething. But the editors were too controling. I love JMSomething. He is great writer. I looooooooooove his TV shows. I watched Bab5 from the day it aired on TV. I just wanted Howard Mackie had the same freedom from Marvel to write the stories he wanted, just like JMSomething. JMS said that if they try to change something without his oppinion he would leave Marvel. Mackie... was not so big name, to let him do whatever he pleases.
:( :( :( :(

[AForceOfOne]

I agree with the statement that half the readers will hate what JMS is doing in Spider-Man. If only because it's not constant fighting in spandex with no plot whatsoever. What JMS is doing is something that takes time to evolve and you can see that in all of his books. It's a book written for trade format so you get more out of it reading the storyarc in it's entireity. This is probably the reason why it's on mostly a bi-weekly schedule...people can't wait. It unfolds like a movie. Ever read Ultimate Spider-man and notice you don't even see the costume for a good 3 issues? That's the kind of storytelling I personally like...but not everyone does.

I tell you one thing though...the totem thing at least has some footing in history and makes you think. It's not just making a clone or because a writer can't ever write a good relationship Peter and MJ are forced into a divorce, then supposed death, then return to only again...leave because giving a happy sort of ending would not be good. Crap happens to Peter...alot of crap. But MJ and his love for her, and vice versa is the anchor into sanity. Wether the two will get back together is still up in the air but either way...MJ is back to stay. JMS understands this need and why it's just as essential to the book as the death of Uncle Ben.

I would rather read a bi-weekly from a man who knows this then what we had as a bi-weekly in the 90s...undeciperhal art and even worse storytelling. Just my opinion. I have friends who don't like the book at all...and that's fine. We have the same kind of discussions offline. This is probably why each Spider book now has a different taste. So there's something for everyone. I just personally like JMS as one of the top two next to Ult. Spidey.

[AForceOfOne]

[quote]Originally posted by theodoros:
<strong>

If Howard Mackie was free from the editors to do the stories he wanted he would be the writer of ASpiderman today. He is far better than JMStrawsomething. But the editors were too controling. I love JMSomething. He is great writer. I looooooooooove his TV shows. I watched Bab5 from the day it aired on TV. I just wanted Howard Mackie had the same freedom from Marvel to write the stories he wanted, just like JMSomething. JMS said that if they try to change something without his oppinion he would leave Marvel. Mackie... was not so big name, to let him do whatever he pleases.
:( :( :( :( </strong><hr></blockquote>

Wether he's better in your viewpoint or not, it's already been proven he got tired of writing the book and that he was slipping ALOT. Remember back when Jenkins took over Peter Parker and had the conversation with him? He admitted all this. Now I've read some of Mackie's work honestly and I know it wasn't his best. But from what I have read, and that being the ending part of his run among other things, he just doesn't have that cinematic style to his writing. He doesn't have that drama. Now that's not a bad thing. It's just a different way of writing. With the spider movie out and Amazing being pretty much the main spider book I'm sure they wanted that feel.

As far as being able to do what he wanted. The man's been in the business for years. Sometimes things happen in the middle of a run with editors or vice versa. It was most likelt a contractual obligation so that he could finish out his story at least. Anybody would have done the same if they were in the position to do so. However Marvel editorial now is alot different then it was back then when JMS signed on. But we don't know. That is just my speculation. Doesn't matter either way to enjoy the book or not.

[AForceOfOne]

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
<strong>I don't have anything against the "spider-totem" either, it just doesn't sound that interesting.

Ok, wait. It seems a lot of people on newsarama don't like it when people make judgments OF previews based ON the previews and then say they won't buy the book. Well, tell me if you've heard this before . . .

Have you guys seen/heard this before? Sound familiar? Yeah, I thought so. Think about it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah but there's one slight difference. Comics cost $2.25 and with a discount I can get it for alot less. Movies cost $9.00 at full price and most theatres don't give out discounts. Even then you can only get it as a student or a senior. So the majority of the people aren't going to spend that full price on a mediocre sequel. Comics however are another thing entirely. You can also flip through the book in most places you get them from wether it's a newstand or a store. Some stores have them in the plastic sleeves but a person can ask to take them out and look at it on the counter near the clerk. It's not a problem. If it is then you shouldn't be shopping at that store. I'm not going to lie and say I haven't said the same thing. It's hard even to factor in another book and I know about that all to well. I see your comparison but it's a big stretch in my eyes. Doesn't mean I think you're wrong but I just see it as more overwhelming factors not to see a movie then to buy a comic.

[Tom Daylight]

[quote]Originally posted by Hap Collins:
<strong>There's a moral there somewhere???? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, two actually:

You can never please everyone
You can't please some people

[quote]<strong>What the hell does that mean? Does it mean that half the audience could care less about the all new, all daring spider-totemed Spider-man?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess you haven't been reading it properly then... even though the first three pages of the latest issue spell it out for you

[quote]<strong> That, maybe, what JMS is doing on the book isn't all that great? That some people have tastes contrary to Mike's? That maybe issue #50 will be another c-tease and resolve nothing like Peter and MJ's meeting previously in JMS's run.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It won't be. Back then JMS was told not to alter the situation between them because Marvel wanted Kevin Smith to do it, expecting bigger sales and a more memorable issue. But Smith fell behind and this coupled with the fact that issues of Spider-Man/Black Cat were outsold by Amazing Spider-Man meant that JMS is being given the opportunity himself. JMS had planned to do it sooner but until now has only been able to "touch around the edges".

[MichaelCoughlin]

I've loved JMS's work on Spidey. Great stories that are plain fun to read. They move at a good clip, and he seems to be going somewhere with everything.

As far as the comment earlier, what Mike S. was talking about is there are two opinions right now on Peter/MJ. 1) get back together 2) stay apart. One side will be happy with the next issue. One side won't. He wasn't referring to the entire run.

[Tom Daylight]

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
<strong>Have you guys seen/heard this before? Sound familiar? Yeah, I thought so. Think about it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, there's the old saying "don't judge a book by its cover", so I suppose there's also a saying "don't judge a film by its preview". The people who put together the preview are completely different from the people who put together the film. Think about it. ;)

[Tom Daylight]

[quote]Originally posted by theodoros:
<strong>

If Howard Mackie was free from the editors to do the stories he wanted he would be the writer of ASpiderman today. He is far better than JMStrawsomething. But the editors were too controling. I love JMSomething. He is great writer. I looooooooooove his TV shows. I watched Bab5 from the day it aired on TV. I just wanted Howard Mackie had the same freedom from Marvel to write the stories he wanted, just like JMSomething. JMS said that if they try to change something without his oppinion he would leave Marvel. Mackie... was not so big name, to let him do whatever he pleases.
:( :( :( :( </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't suppose you know how Howard Mackie broke into Marvel?

It certainly wasn't anything like the way JMS did. And would explain why he isn't working there any more.

[qnetter]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
[QB]by Michael Sangiacomo
Killraven #4

Killraven is non-stop thrills and action from cover to cover!

<hr></blockquote>

...which is what's wrong with it.

Don McGregor's KILLRAVEN was a book deep and thick with narrative and philosophy. His characters weren't the SF archetypes Davis' are, and the action was almost incidental.

Telling a straight-out SF invasion opera using the Killraven cast is a lot like an animation-style WITCHFIRE ADVENTURES would be: throwing out the style and keeping the schema is pointless when the style *is* the substance.

And that's why I think KILLRAVEN is a book that didn't need to be published...

[Minute Man]

[quote]Originally posted by Kabukiman:
<strong>

As much as I hate to overuse the cliche, I just think you missed the point entirely. The book is not about cops, it's about cops in Gotham City. They want to be like regular cops, they want to think that they CAN solve all the Gotham City crime and see that the offender is brought to justice. But, there comes a point when they know, they just know that they can't! As much as they hate him for taking away their successes, they know that they need Batman. They hate him because they know that he does much of what they are supposed to do, while at the same time they know that he has to help.</strong><hr></blockquote>
well, if that is the point and I missed it, then its not the comic I'm interested in. I wanted to see "real" people finding ways to beat the super powered criminals w/o having to rely on the Batman. If that is the point of the book, then what separates it from other Bat titles, outside of having a different character focus? It just means that its going to end the same way. Either way I was let down.

[Morlun]

[quote]Originally posted by theodoros:
<strong>If Howard Mackie was free from the editors to do the stories he wanted he would be the writer of ASpiderman today. He is far better than JMStrawsomething. But the editors were too controling. I love JMSomething. He is great writer. I looooooooooove his TV shows. I watched Bab5 from the day it aired on TV. I just wanted Howard Mackie had the same freedom from Marvel to write the stories he wanted, just like JMSomething. JMS said that if they try to change something without his oppinion he would leave Marvel. Mackie... was not so big name, to let him do whatever he pleases.
:( :( :( :( </strong><hr></blockquote>

Wha'?

Go back in time. Read "<a href="http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/name_of_the_rose.html" target="_blank">The Name of the Rose</a>" (Web of Spider-Man #84-89), 1992. He had all the freedom there. It was one of the worst pieces of crap ever produced. Heck, it rivals "Get Kraven".

As for Mackie doing what Harras and Byrne wanted after the reboot, that's true to some extent. He deliberately went against every clue he planted with the Stalker. He gave us Shadrac. He made the mistery Green Goblin a clone. He gave us Hunger. He gave us Venom defeated by a lighter (!!!). He gave us Venom killing Carnage off-panel. He gave us a lot of stuff off-panel, actually. He gave us Kasady finding a copy of the symbiote in the Negative Zone (tired of looking for that shirt you lost? Your wallet? Your killer symbiote? Come to the Negative Zone! We have a backup for you!).

Mackie's skills were never above par. When he tried to do a birdie he usually screwed up really bad. Like that time when he tried to take over all of Spidey's titles... ;)

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by 1.5:
<strong>i think what mike is saying is that everyone has their own (and sometimes VERY narrow minded) visions of what "their" super heroes should be like, and that when any writer makes a big decision that drastically changes a characters current status quo that at least half are gonan hate it because it doesnt vibe with what they think "their" super hero would do/should be. but im sure you all knew that

2nd asst to the lt. govenor of guam,
1.5</strong><hr></blockquote>

your a hundred present right. we all have our own ersions of heroes we grew up with. we see them in the same light as we did as a kid and when something challenges that we get pissed because OUR hero isn't the way we believe he should be.

[mauer]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Morlun:
[QB
As for Mackie doing what Harras and Byrne wanted after the reboot, that's true to some extent. He deliberately went against every clue he planted with the Stalker. He gave us Shadrac. He made the mistery Green Goblin a clone. He gave us Hunger. He gave us Venom defeated by a lighter (!!!). He gave us Venom killing Carnage off-panel. He gave us a lot of stuff off-panel, actually. He gave us Kasady finding a copy of the symbiote in the Negative Zone (tired of looking for that shirt you lost? Your wallet? Your killer symbiote? Come to the Negative Zone! We have a backup for you!).
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok So some questions, totally unrelated, but oh well. First, is Carnage dead? Or just the symbiote? Who did Mackie set up the Stalker to be? I totally missed out on that. I know who it ended up being, but who were the hints pointing at? And when is the last time they touched on the baby May issue?

m.

[jawaplumber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Minute Man:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kabukiman:
<strong>

As much as I hate to overuse the cliche, I just think you missed the point entirely. The book is not about cops, it's about cops in Gotham City. They want to be like regular cops, they want to think that they CAN solve all the Gotham City crime and see that the offender is brought to justice. But, there comes a point when they know, they just know that they can't! As much as they hate him for taking away their successes, they know that they need Batman. They hate him because they know that he does much of what they are supposed to do, while at the same time they know that he has to help.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well, if that is the point and I missed it, then its not the comic I'm interested in. I wanted to see "real" people finding ways to beat the super powered criminals w/o having to rely on the Batman. If that is the point of the book, then what separates it from other Bat titles, outside of having a different character focus? It just means that its going to end the same way. Either way I was let down.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not to be rude here, honestly, but I think the both of you are missing the point of GOTHAM CENTRAL (or at least, Kabukiman, you didn't explain it well enough for Minute Man here, so I'll try to help out). I think it's simply about what it's like to be a cop in Gotham, living in the shadow of the Batman, dealing with super-villains, etc.. I think the use of Batman conquering Mr. Freeze in place of the cops in the first story arc wasn't meant to set the "formula" of the rest of the series, as it seems you're mistaking it for. It was just meant to be a story of how sometimes in Gotham, the cops bust their butts to bring a supervillain down, but then Batman will step in and just make it look quick and easy. It was meant to show the "tragedy", if you will, that sometimes comes with being a Gotham cop. I'm sure there will be stories that don't deal with supervillains that require Batman's help (I've heard such an arc will be coming soon, in fact), and I'm sure there will be stories that don't deal with Batman OR supervillains at all. I say, give it a few more issues before you completely dump. At least keep aware of what's going on the series, skim through it on the shelves at the comic book store, because I have a feeling it will be worth your while :)

[MichaelCoughlin]

Ya know, in Mackie's defense, I always thought his work on Mutant X was pretty good. What the hell is he up to these days anyways?

[Cyberleader]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Go back in time. Read "The Name of the Rose" (Web of Spider-Man #84-89), 1992. He had all the freedom there. It was one of the
worst pieces of crap ever produced. Heck, it rivals "Get Kraven".

As for Mackie doing what Harras and Byrne wanted after the reboot, that's true to some extent. He deliberately went against every clue he planted with the Stalker. He gave us Shadrac. He made the mistery Green Goblin a clone. He gave us Hunger. He gave us Venom defeated by a lighter (!!!). He gave us Venom killing Carnage off-panel. He gave us a lot of stuff off-panel, actually. He gave us Kasady finding a copy of the symbiote in the Negative Zone (tired of looking for that shirt you lost? Your wallet? Your killer symbiote? Come to the Negative Zone! We have a backup for you!).
Mackie's skills were never above par. When he tried to do a birdie he usually screwed up really bad. Like that time when he tried to take over all of Spidey's titles... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those are some of the most hysterically bad cover blurbs I've ever read.

So, wait, who was the last Rose that showed up and what happened to him? For that matter where did the Black Taratula go? And all those other crime boss/super villain characters from the late nineties Spider-books?

[MindTricked]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:
<strong>Ya know, in Mackie's defense, I always thought his work on Mutant X was pretty good. What the hell is he up to these days anyways?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, and I don't know. (very helpful - that's what I do)

As for all those characters from the nineties? Swept under the rug/blown away in a tornado. Y'see, all that stuff never happened. Retconning is fun and easy. I honestly doubt we'll see any of those characters (like the female Dr Octopus) ever again. Sure, some of 'em were cheesier than a 4x4 wild style from In-n-Out Burger (holla if ya hear me!), but a few of them had potential. Current editorial & the writers have no interest in them... if they've ever heard of them.

[dogisred]

First of all...I love Gotham Central for what it is and what it is supposed to be. It is a well written comic about being a cop in Gotham, always taking a back seat to Batman. It is supposed to be, from what I discern from Mr. Rucka and Mr. Brubaker, a chance to show what the GPD can do against the super villains without the help of the Dark Knight. Sure, there are going to be times when the big bat swoops in and "saves the day" but Gotham is a huge city and Batman is one man.

Killraven is a fun read. It doesn't compare to the McGregor/Russell issues, but Davis is a great storyteller (notice I didn't say writer). I still look forward to reading each and every issue.

Supergirl has stayed on my list for one very good reason...Peter David rarely disappoints in the long run. My friends often asked me why I stuck with it, and I told them that I lost my trust in PAD once, when he was doing the Hulk. I dropped it when Jeff Purvis came aboard as the artist and PAD took the gamma guy to Las Vegas to be the muscle for a pseudo-mobster (Mr. Fixit). Eventually I had to go back and get every one of those issues because the Hulk got better. Sure, Gary Frank drawing the book didn't hurt. There was this girl, Marlo, that appeared in the book and I had to find out where she came from. Sure enough, Las Vegas. The Mr. Fixit issues didn't turn out to be so bad...three issues after I dropped it.

Spider-Man, in an Amazing way, got back on my charts for a ridiculous way. I like the J. Scott Campbell cover and had extra money that day when I picked up my books. I read it. I liked it. It was different. It portrayed the super arachnid in a way I hadn't seen in a very long time. Human. Not in a ultra-surreal way, but in a true to human behavior way. It wasn't all out action, it played on the emotion of the reader; subtle action to pull at the emotion of he reader and not spelling everything out to the reader because JMS believed that the readers of ASM could understand what his character was going through. The mark of an excellent writer. He has portrayed the problems of Peter and MJ very well. Very believeable. Not in a comic book way, but in a true representation of the difficulties in a relationship.

All that said...Howard Mackie. Good writer, bad writer. It depended on what he wrote. Hated the Spider-Man stuff, loved the Mutant X stuff. Hmmm.

As to the writers being forced to do certain things with the book, Bob Harras was notorious for that. Fabian Nicieza said in a interview once that he was only scripting the plots Harras had given him for X-Force and X-Men. Scott Lobdell said the same thing. PAD left X-Factor because of this very thing (I believe he said that if all Harras wanted was someone to put words in the thought bubbles, then he didn't need a real writer...something to that effect). There was a list of writers that claimed the same thing was true under the Harras regime, so there's no telling if they were speaking the truth or just using it as an excuse for mediocre writing. The true test is if the writer was able to write well for another company, or a creator owned property.

[howler]

well if the response here are any indication it is clear why Peter David's Supergirl is comming to an end. i didn't mind the earth angel storyline in fact i found it Peter DAvid at his best, keeping the reader constantly guessing at where he is going. that was his hallmark on the Hulk. People if you have not picked up PAD'S final Supergirl issues,especially old silver age bastards like myself, you are missing something special! :D

[KET]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hap Collins:
<strong>And as for Peter David's Supergirl story in #78, with regards to the ending... (without giving it away and while trying to not sound like the uber-dork that I am) at what point does that solution not cause reality to totally unravel?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, the realities probably WILL, to some degree. Just like Marty McFly did in "Back to the Future", I fully expect that Linda Danvers is gonna rearrange a few things more to her liking.... :)

[TylerS]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jawaplumber: At least keep aware of what's going on the series, skim through it on the shelves at the comic book store, because I have a feeling it will be worth your while :) [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No need to since we have you to give away the endings.

[jawaplumber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TylerS:
No need to since we have you to give away the endings.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, that would be funny if the folks who posted before me hadn't done the same. Plus, how long has that second issue of Gotham Central been out? Sorry that I didn't read the handbook on spoilers and the grace periods involved. Try again, slappy... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Hdefined]

For the Mackie discussion, I recently picked up two separate stories in which the Mackster writers the Hobgoblin, at the time Jason Macendale. It was just . . . awful. I don't always mind him as a writer, sometimes he has good plot-driven stories (or at least bearable), but christ, his Spider-Man, for the most part, was awful.

For the movie analogy, I'm just trying to make SOME kind of analogy. Obviously, there's not much you can compare to comics, so cut me a little slack. My point is, since Marvel has slashed their previews descriptions, these newsarama previews and interviews are the best we get until the product is released. This is the point when I make the decision "Am I going to buy it or not?", the only thing that might overturn that decision being a wide range of reviews.

Keep in mind too that we've seen plenty of series come and go that we can, and are allowed, to make educated guesses on the lifespan of said books from the previews. Seriously. And, if someone does want to say "Namor is going to fail because Jemas is writing it", they have every right to because of the sales of Marville. Or if someone wants to say "Namor will suceed because Jemas also scripted Ultimate Spider-Man", they can as well.

Face it, the one thing comics are guaranteed to do in this industry is die, so predicting these eventual deaths is far from outrageous.

[COREMARK]

Gotham Central is one of the best new comics out there, it deserves way more attention than it gets, hopefully good word of mouth will see more people checking out this book.

[Kabukiman]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jawaplumber:
Not to be rude here, honestly, but I think the both of you are missing the point of GOTHAM CENTRAL (or at least, Kabukiman, you didn't explain it well enough for Minute Man here, so I'll try to help out).[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah yes, thanks. I read Minute Man's response and realized that I didn't do a very good job explaining what I was thinking. You, on the other hand, have written almost exactly what I was trying to get across

This is why I don't post too often... :)

[Kabukiman]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:
<strong>Ya know, in Mackie's defense, I always thought his work on Mutant X was pretty good. What the hell is he up to these days anyways?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I liked the first twelve issues. Thought they were fantastic. After that, though, he seemed to not have any real direction for the book (which makes sense, I guess, since it was originally supposed to be a 12-issue maxi-series and was turned into an ongoing).

[dogisred]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kabukiman:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:
<strong>Ya know, in Mackie's defense, I always thought his work on Mutant X was pretty good. What the hell is he up to these days anyways?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I liked the first twelve issues. Thought they were fantastic. After that, though, he seemed to not have any real direction for the book (which makes sense, I guess, since it was originally supposed to be a 12-issue maxi-series and was turned into an ongoing).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I loved the series at first...especially since Tom Raney was supposed [/i] to be the artist. The first "real" story arc was great, but it seemed to lose it's direction. I've always thought that doing "alternate world" series lose their attraction after a while (at least Exiles travels to different realities for a reason (kind of like a Quantum Leap of comic books)). Mutant X did.

What I really liked about Mutant X as Havok. I've always liked Havok. My favorite X-Men were always Colossus and Havok...so you know the X-Men writers have pissed me off for the past several years. I got over it. They're just comic book characters...right?

[theodoros]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fetsur:

I don't suppose you know how Howard Mackie broke into Marvel?

It certainly wasn't anything like the way JMS did. And would explain why he isn't working there any more.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well? How Howard Machie broke into Marvel? Can I have an answer? Just asking.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Morlun]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mauer:
<strong>Ok So some questions, totally unrelated, but oh well. First, is Carnage dead? Or just the symbiote? Who did Mackie set up the Stalker to be? I totally missed out on that. I know who it ended up being, but who were the hints pointing at? And when is the last time they touched on the baby May issue?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, Venom ate Carnage's symbiote off-panel. Then Mackie sent Casady on a trip to the Negative Zone where he found a copy of his symbiote. Dumb, huh? :D

The Stalker. Well, instead of writing it all down here, I'll point you to an article by someone who's already done it. :)

<a href="http://www.spiderfan.org/ppp/v7/issue04/rave.html" target="_blank">Check the 4th topic, Stalker Screw-Ups</a>

As for Baby May - Pre-Reboot. Tom D, JM DeMatteis and Todd Dezago mostly. Mackie rarely. After Final Chapter it was like Baby May never existed...

... except, of course, for the excellent Spider-Girl, one of the most underrated comics out there, and that's about to break She-Hulk's record as the longest running title with a female lead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Cyberleader:
<strong>Those are some of the most hysterically bad cover blurbs I've ever read.

So, wait, who was the last Rose that showed up and what happened to him? For that matter where did the Black Taratula go? And all those other crime boss/super villain characters from the late nineties Spider-books?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The last <a href="http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/villains/rose3.html" target="_blank">Rose</a> that showed up (the third, if you don't count "Blood Rose" - nobody does anyway) was Jake Conover, Bugle journalist. He's in jail now. Mackie's Rose isn't that one though.

These are the ones we can blame on Mackie, <a href="http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/villains/rose2.html" target="_blank">Rose II</a> and <a href="http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/villains/blood_rose.html" target="_blank">Blood Rose (UGH!)</a>.

The Black Tarantula returned to South America and was never seen since. Those crime bosses of the time were either killed in an hostile takeover by the returning Wilson Fisk (Fortunato), are jailed (Conover), are in the limbo after being used and ditched by Mackie (Jimmy 6), or are in the limbo after their writer gave them a propper resolution (Black Tarantula, by Tom DeFalco).

The super-villains - if you see one of them it's a bonus. Really. Kevin Smith used Scorpia in his (still unfinished) Spidey/Black Cat mini, Jenkins used the Robot Master in the late 20's of Peter Parker: Spider-Man (27 and 28, IIRC), and Tom D. churned out a mini series in 99 that revealed Mad Jack and sent her to jail, because J.M. DeMatteis was driven out of the Spidey books before he could finish his own story, and it was left in the open for an year and a half.

[Tom Daylight]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hdefined:
<strong>For the movie analogy, I'm just trying to make SOME kind of analogy. Obviously, there's not much you can compare to comics, so cut me a little slack. My point is, since Marvel has slashed their previews descriptions, these newsarama previews and interviews are the best we get until the product is released. This is the point when I make the decision "Am I going to buy it or not?", the only thing that might overturn that decision being a wide range of reviews.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have numerous ways of sampling a book. Previous issues you may have read, sample pages Marvel sticks in the back of its books every month and on its web site, heck even picking up a copy and reading the first few pages before buying it (though you could perhaps make it a personal policy to buy a book once you've read more than say ten pages).

I don't think the lack of previews information is the problem with sampling books here. I think the stupidly high price point is the problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Keep in mind too that we've seen plenty of series come and go that we can, and are allowed, to make educated guesses on the lifespan of said books from the previews. Seriously. And, if someone does want to say "Namor is going to fail because Jemas is writing it", they have every right to because of the sales of Marville. Or if someone wants to say "Namor will suceed because Jemas also scripted Ultimate Spider-Man", they can as well.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">According to the diverging sequence in Jemas-written books so far, Namor is going to outsell Origin:

Ultimate Spider-Man (co-written) - very successful
Brotherhood (co-written) - not very successful
Origin (co-written) - incredibly successful
Marville (solely written) - not at all successful

[Tom Daylight]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by theodoros:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fetsur:

I don't suppose you know how Howard Mackie broke into Marvel?

It certainly wasn't anything like the way JMS did. And would explain why he isn't working there any more.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well? How Howard Machie broke into Marvel? Can I have an answer? Just asking.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh sorry. He transferred from editorial.

[Tom Daylight]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dogisred:
<strong>What I really liked about Mutant X as Havok. I've always liked Havok. My favorite X-Men were always Colossus and Havok...so you know the X-Men writers have pissed me off for the past several years. I got over it. They're just comic book characters...right?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Some of <a href="http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1825" target="_blank">this</a> will probably cheer you up... but I should warn you that it does contain some minor spoilers...

[Anders Wolleck]

You picked some pretty odd books to present as counter programming.

writers like Garth Ennis, JMS, Peter David & Alan Davis are all pretty well known. When I think of counter programming when it comes to comics I think of Harvey Pekar, JOHNNY RYAN's ANGRY YOUTH COMIX and Chester Brown. You're still asking people to pick up superheroes and half naked men with swords as "counter programming".

A pretty weak OP-ED

[jawaplumber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kabukiman:
<strong>Ah yes, thanks. I read Minute Man's response and realized that I didn't do a very good job explaining what I was thinking. You, on the other hand, have written almost exactly what I was trying to get across

This is why I don't post too often... :) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, don't sweat it, I'm just glad I didn't come off as being arrogant and you didn't tell me to mind my own business LOL But I could tell that Minute Man wasn't getting your point, based on his response, so I thought I would step in and try to work some magic of my own. Ironically enough, it was someone else entirely who blasted me for my post, criticizing me for giving away the ending of that story, when you guys already did it for me LOL That's what I get for trying to be your friendly, neighborhood jawaplumber...

[jawaplumber]

Just to chime in on the Howard Mackie stuff, I think his best work was the first two years of GHOST RIDER. Of course, that could just be sentimentality on my part, since I was merely a teenager at the time those comics came out and loved them so much only because I didn't know any better. However, I truly feel like those Ghost Rider stories were his best, before all the Midnight Sons stuff came along. From what I understand, it was also Mackie's favorite work of his career, because it was fun, lacking in too much editorial control (in the first year or so, at least), and he used a lot of familiar locale that he knew. It's a shame Ghost Rider got bogged down by Marvel's attempt to cash in on it's success with the expansion of the Midnight Sons line, and then the overuse of the Vengeance character (who basically was Ghost Rider's version of Spider-Man's Venom, a former big bad villain who by circumstances out of his control was forced to fight on the side of the angels...yeah, it sucked).

[theodoros]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jawaplumber:
<strong>Just to chime in on the Howard Mackie stuff, I think his best work was the first two years of GHOST RIDER. Of course, that could just be sentimentality on my part, since I was merely a teenager at the time those comics came out and loved them so much only because I didn't know any better. However, I truly feel like those Ghost Rider stories were his best, before all the Midnight Sons stuff came along. From what I understand, it was also Mackie's favorite work of his career, because it was fun, lacking in too much editorial control (in the first year or so, at least), and he used a lot of familiar locale that he knew. It's a shame Ghost Rider got bogged down by Marvel's attempt to cash in on it's success with the expansion of the Midnight Sons line, and then the overuse of the Vengeance character (who basically was Ghost Rider's version of Spider-Man's Venom, a former big bad villain who by circumstances out of his control was forced to fight on the side of the angels...yeah, it sucked).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't say it better. I agree with you 100%. About GRider, about overdoing it, about Vengeance, about the stories when you are 18...

:) :D :) :D

[Hdefined]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fetsur:
<strong>According to the diverging sequence in Jemas-written books so far, Namor is going to outsell Origin:

Ultimate Spider-Man (co-written) - very successful
Brotherhood (co-written) - not very successful
Origin (co-written) - incredibly successful
Marville (solely written) - not at all successful</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lol, thanks for that. What a crazy industry

[dogisred]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by theodoros:
I couldn't say it better. I agree with you 100%. About GRider, about overdoing it, about Vengeance, about the stories when you are 18...

:) :D :) :D [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I loved the Ghost Rider stories. All this reminded me of the Ghost Rider movie that was supposed to be made. David Goyer (of Blade movie fame and JSA comic fame) had written a script for it, but Marvel wanted a "PG-13" script and Goyer's was "R". They asked Goyer to reduce the violence...reduce the violence for a character that is based on vengeance. Hmmm. Goyer said no and now there is no real Ghost Rider movie in progress (to my limited knowledge of the inner works of Marvel's movie progress). I think it's funny that Marvel wants to get into the preteen to teen market when Blade II made plenty of money for the company as an "R" rated movie. I'd love to see the Ghost Rider movie, especially Goyer's version.

[RotSman]

I'm on the fence as regards JMS. I like his characterization, but there needs to be just a touch more action (hey, this style worked wonders in B5, but Spidey's a superhero!).

And yet...I can't really blame JMS for the action-less expanses of AMS. It's indicative of the entire Marvel philosophy these days. Less action, more characterization. That's good for a breather between arcs, but if I really wanted a Pete/MJ "will they or won't they" type of drama, I could drop comics and get more bang for my buck with romance novels. I buy comics for both characterization AND superhero hoo-hah! ("Hoo-hah" with much respect to Tom DeFalco.)

I'm certain there are a bunch of nouveau elitist comic-book readers out there who are appalled and personally offended by my viewpoint...but these types can get bent. It's because of that attitude that the industry is almost totally marketed towards everyone but children. Without a new reader base, what will be left in ten years (when comics will probably cost $10US a pop for 32 pages)?

Back on topic, JMS is a great writer, and he writes Spidey-action well. I just wish he'd do more of it! There are a number of "classic Spidey villains" that I'm still waiting for him to put his stank on! =)

Matt
<a href="http://www.infiniteplayground.com" target="_blank">http://www.infiniteplayground.com</a>

[jawaplumber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by theodoros:
<strong>I couldn't say it better. I agree with you 100%. About GRider, about overdoing it, about Vengeance, about the stories when you are 18...

:) :D :) :D </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know this isn't a revelation by any means, but it IS quite interesting to look back at the stuff you dug when you were a teen. Whether the material itself is as good as you remember it, the fact remains that the themes involved spoke to you then and most likely still do now. With Ghost Rider, it was a lot of things. Rebellion yet having a certain sense of morality and values, plus just wanting to be and look as cool as hell (literally, in Ghost Rider's case).

[jawaplumber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dogisred:
<strong>I loved the Ghost Rider stories. All this reminded me of the Ghost Rider movie that was supposed to be made. David Goyer (of Blade movie fame and JSA comic fame) had written a script for it, but Marvel wanted a "PG-13" script and Goyer's was "R". They asked Goyer to reduce the violence...reduce the violence for a character that is based on vengeance. Hmmm. Goyer said no and now there is no real Ghost Rider movie in progress (to my limited knowledge of the inner works of Marvel's movie progress). I think it's funny that Marvel wants to get into the preteen to teen market when Blade II made plenty of money for the company as an "R" rated movie. I'd love to see the Ghost Rider movie, especially Goyer's version.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm with you, man, I'd love to see Ghost Rider done in the same fashion as Blade II (which was about as good of a Blade movie as you could possibly ever make, it was just so damn cool). But keep in mind, it's not just Marvel making these decisions about which movies get made with what approach behind them. A lot of it is pressure from the studios, too. I think with the success of Blade II, we'd be more likely to see an R rated Ghost Rider than ever before. And if I'm remembering this right, Ghost Rider and Iron Man and Prime were all neck and neck with Namor recently before Universal decided to go with Namor first.

[jawaplumber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RotSman:
<strong>I'm on the fence as regards JMS. I like his characterization, but there needs to be just a touch more action (hey, this style worked wonders in B5, but Spidey's a superhero!).

And yet...I can't really blame JMS for the action-less expanses of AMS. It's indicative of the entire Marvel philosophy these days. Less action, more characterization. That's good for a breather between arcs, but if I really wanted a Pete/MJ "will they or won't they" type of drama, I could drop comics and get more bang for my buck with romance novels. I buy comics for both characterization AND superhero hoo-hah! ("Hoo-hah" with much respect to Tom DeFalco.)

I'm certain there are a bunch of nouveau elitist comic-book readers out there who are appalled and personally offended by my viewpoint...but these types can get bent. It's because of that attitude that the industry is almost totally marketed towards everyone but children. Without a new reader base, what will be left in ten years (when comics will probably cost $10US a pop for 32 pages)?

Back on topic, JMS is a great writer, and he writes Spidey-action well. I just wish he'd do more of it! There are a number of "classic Spidey villains" that I'm still waiting for him to put his stank on! =)

Matt
<a href="http://www.infiniteplayground.com" target="_blank">http://www.infiniteplayground.com</a></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just let me say thank you for being so fair and intelligent in your comments and critique of JMS' AMAZING SPIDER-MAN :) There are a lot of people on here who get all defensive about those of us who stand up against the JMS critics, but what they fail to realize is that (for me, at least) it has nothing to do with anyone else liking the same things I do or kissing JMS' butt or anything like that. It's just about being truthful and honest with oneself and admitting there's value in JMS' AMAZING SPIDEY or anything of the like, whether you favor the overall approach of the product or not. There's a couple of things in your post that I disagree with, but you know what? I'm not even going to bother, in honor of such harmony in positive, intelligent debate and discussion :)

[mike sangiacomo]

and now there is no real Ghost Rider movie in progress (to my limited knowledge of the inner works of Marvel's movie progress).
Hey, Sangiacomo here:
I interviewed Avi Arad about a week ago and he said that the Ghost Rider movie was a definite go.
He seemed very excited about"Prime" and "Power Pack"
Here's a piece of the piece:
After “Daredevil” what Marvel comic characters are making the leap to the big screen?
In quick succession, “X-Men 2” will be released May 2 and “The Hulk” comes smashing through theater screens on June 20.
Down the line, Marvel’s Avi Arad said there are more than a dozen other movies based on comics in various stages of production.
“We hope to start production in May on “The Punisher,” and will soon follow on the “Fantastic Four” movie (featuring the villainous Dr. Doom).”
Other comic movie “in the pipeline” include:
Fantastic Four: A scientist ropes his girlfriend, her brother, and an old friend to fly into space. They become super-heroes when exposed to mysterious cosmic rays.
Prime: a young boy turns into a handsome, huge, super-hero.
Werewolf By Night: Jack Russell turns into a Werewolf. At night.
Ghost Rider: motorcycle stunt rider shares his body with a demon from Hell.
The Man-Thing: a scientist is turned in a shambling, swamp monster.
Namor: the Sub-Mariner, the son of a seaman and a water-breather from sunken Atlantis.
Luke Cage, Hero for Hire: Super-tough black hero who sells his skills for money.
Cloak and Danger: a teenage boy and girl that wield powers over light and darkness.¶
Nick Fury: head of the spy organization S.H.I.E.L.D. ¶
Shang-Chi: the son of Fu Manchu who turns against his father and becomes a kung fu hero.  Power Pack: a family of four super-powered children.

[jawaplumber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong> Fantastic Four: A scientist ropes his girlfriend, her brother, and an old friend to fly into space. They become super-heroes when exposed to mysterious cosmic rays.
Prime: a young boy turns into a handsome, huge, super-hero.
Werewolf By Night: Jack Russell turns into a Werewolf. At night.
Ghost Rider: motorcycle stunt rider shares his body with a demon from Hell.
The Man-Thing: a scientist is turned in a shambling, swamp monster.
Namor: the Sub-Mariner, the son of a seaman and a water-breather from sunken Atlantis.
Luke Cage, Hero for Hire: Super-tough black hero who sells his skills for money.
Cloak and Danger: a teenage boy and girl that wield powers over light and darkness.¶
Nick Fury: head of the spy organization S.H.I.E.L.D.
Shang-Chi: the son of Fu Manchu who turns against his father and becomes a kung fu hero.  Power Pack: a family of four super-powered children.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Out of the bunch, I personally would like to see Ghost Rider, Fantastic Four, and Cloak And Dagger made into movies above the rest. I just think they are the most viable for feature film treatment and would serve Marvel and the comics industry best. As cool as, say, Werewolf By Night (PLEASE, Marvel, gives us a new series!), Man-Thing, Prime, etc. are, I think GR, FF, and C & D would appeal more to the general public and best epitomize what make Marvel characters so great. For example, as much as I loved Blade II (didn't see the first movie, can't comment on it), I don't think it helped Marvel or comics overall. How many people recognized Blade as a Marvel character (even with it noted in the credits), and even if they did, how many really came to the comic book stores in search of him? I'm not saying they shouldn't have made the movies; like I said, I loved Blade II and have watched it many times over. I just think Marvel should now try to push for it's more recognizable and profitable properties to be made into movies. I realize my choice of Cloak And Dagger is questionable as being "recognizable", but they "feel" more like Marvel characters than, say, Blade or Man-Thing or Werewolf By Night.

[MichaelCoughlin]

In defense of JMS, I think his arc with Morlun had TONS of action. Too much in a way, as it seemed like there were three issues alone where all he did was fight Morlun. Plus the Doc Oc one was pretty action packed.

Now, to translate this into fanboy words: "YOU'RE STUPID AND DON'T KNOW COMICS! YOU SUCK!"

[dogisred]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>and now there is no real Ghost Rider movie in progress (to my limited knowledge of the inner works of Marvel's movie progress).
Hey, Sangiacomo here:
I interviewed Avi Arad about a week ago and he said that the Ghost Rider movie was a definite go.
He seemed very excited about"Prime" and "Power Pack"
Here's a piece of the piece:
After “Daredevil” what Marvel comic characters are making the leap to the big screen?
In quick succession, “X-Men 2” will be released May 2 and “The Hulk” comes smashing through theater screens on June 20.
Down the line, Marvel’s Avi Arad said there are more than a dozen other movies based on comics in various stages of production.
“We hope to start production in May on “The Punisher,” and will soon follow on the “Fantastic Four” movie (featuring the villainous Dr. Doom).”
Other comic movie “in the pipeline” include:
Fantastic Four: A scientist ropes his girlfriend, her brother, and an old friend to fly into space. They become super-heroes when exposed to mysterious cosmic rays.
Prime: a young boy turns into a handsome, huge, super-hero.
Werewolf By Night: Jack Russell turns into a Werewolf. At night.
Ghost Rider: motorcycle stunt rider shares his body with a demon from Hell.
The Man-Thing: a scientist is turned in a shambling, swamp monster.
Namor: the Sub-Mariner, the son of a seaman and a water-breather from sunken Atlantis.
Luke Cage, Hero for Hire: Super-tough black hero who sells his skills for money.
Cloak and Danger: a teenage boy and girl that wield powers over light and darkness.¶
Nick Fury: head of the spy organization S.H.I.E.L.D. ¶
Shang-Chi: the son of Fu Manchu who turns against his father and becomes a kung fu hero.  Power Pack: a family of four super-powered children.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just because there is a movie "in development" doesn't mean that it will ever see production...or any time soon. How long was Spider-Man in production? ten, twelve years before it was made. Remember, James Cameron was supposed to make it right after Terminator 2...never happened. A "PG-13" Ghost Rider would leave a lot to be desired in the vengeance area.

Blade was a small character in Marvel comics...it made a great transfer to film probably because not many people knew the history of the character, didn't need to know it, and vampires were really popular when it first came out (like they aren't now). Basically I mentioned it because Goyer was supposed to be writing the Rider movie, and based on his past success with the Blade movies, Ghost Rider by him would probably be great as well.

Of the movies mentioned by Mike...Namor and Prime are the only ones that really interest me (if Ghost Rider is to be PG-13 and all...)

[dogisred]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:
<strong>In defense of JMS, I think his arc with Morlun had TONS of action. Too much in a way, as it seemed like there were three issues alone where all he did was fight Morlun. Plus the Doc Oc one was pretty action packed.

Now, to translate this into fanboy words: "YOU'RE STUPID AND DON'T KNOW COMICS! YOU SUCK!"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know...that's funny because it is so true. People get their feelings hurt so easily and feel the need to strike back in anger.

I thought the fight with Morlun could have been shorter, but then Peter would not have had the time to think about his life. Probably would not have been so determined to mend his relationship with MJ. It's not a matter of action or no action, it's a relationship between characterization and action. JMS does this well. Not just action, but action with repercussions and meaning. My opinion...take it for what it's worth...or flame me.

[Zig Zag Wanderer]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jonas.Vesterlund:
<strong>Talking about KILLRAVEN and advertising. Has this book got ANY ad support from Marvel? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Outside of the regular Previews-type stuff, I haven't seen anything. To my embarassment, I'll admit that I didn't even know it was out.

[GrezBall]

The way I look at JMS' Spider-Man is its diferent strokes for different folks.

As it is, this time next year, they'll be a different taste for everyone with Spidey, having 5 titles and all.

[Hdefined]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>
Werewolf By Night: Jack Russell turns into a Werewolf. At night.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can tell this one'll be a sizzler

[RotSman]

Thanks for the reply, jawa! I think that the term "critic" is misused a lot in popular entertainment, but horribly so when it comes to comics. People think that negative criticism is the only way to gain the title "critic," whilst positive reviews label one an unrepentant butt-kisser.

Want proof? Go to alt.fan.peter-david and start badmouthing PAD. Zealots will come out of the woodwork! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

NOTE: I'm a big fan of Mr. David...but one teeny-tiny little problem I had with one of his books amidst five or six points of glowing praise got me flamed by well-meaning but over-anxious NG regulars!

I like JMS's stuff, but like you say, there are aspects I don't like. I look at it this way: if a perfect comic book existed, how many people would read it? After all, you can't pick apart perfection. :D

And as to you, Mike...fanboys are one thing, but I follow Gene Simmons and refer to myself as a Fan-Man. So there. :p

Matt
<a href="http://www.infiniteplayground.com" target="_blank">http://www.infiniteplayground.com</a>

[aphterburn]

If you can't find something to like about Gotham Central and JMS's Spidey, I don't know what to say to you. It's the cream of the crop. You can't please everyone.

[Grendel Prime]

The only real problem I have with Amazing Spider-Man is that JMS went to all the trouble of getting Petey a regular job, and since then we haven't seen him actually go do his job at all. What kind of school lets a teacher duck out for at least a week when he mysteriously disappears to Africa?!?

Every new issue, I am reminded of the episode of the Simpsons where Bart asks Homer, "Do you even HAVE a job anymore?"

On another topic related to this installment of JiC: It seems likely (to me) that Supergirl's series may have gotten the axe due to the recent "shocker" ending of the Superman 10 cent adventure. I mean, how many of those can you have running around at any one time? Talk about reality unravelling...

(intentionally vague to prevent spoilage)

[GrezBall]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
<strong>The only real problem I have with Amazing Spider-Man is that JMS went to all the trouble of getting Petey a regular job, and since then we haven't seen him actually go do his job at all. What kind of school lets a teacher duck out for at least a week when he mysteriously disappears to Africa?!?

Every new issue, I am reminded of the episode of the Simpsons where Bart asks Homer, "Do you even HAVE a job anymore?"

)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dont know about you, but I've seen Peter in school plenty of times since he got the job. And lets not forget that Norman Osborn had his classroom and a good half of the school demolished in Jenkin's and Ramos' arch.

[Dood Lee]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Morlun:
<strong>... except, of course, for the excellent Spider-Girl, one of the most underrated comics out there, and that's about to break She-Hulk's record as the longest running title with a female lead.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you talking specifically just Marvel? Cuz Wonder Woman for DC has been going for like 150 or so issues now. And that's after the reboot.