Peter David's BUT I DIGRESS: Retailer Poll

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Creators/BiD.jpg" width="200" height="105" alt="BUT I DIGRESS by Peter David" align="right">Writer Peter David is at it again, using his weekly Comic Buyer’s Guide column But I Digress to challenge - or least place under the microscope – Marvel Comics’ policy and public statements. This time he’s conducting a poll, a poll of retailers to try to determine where retailer support [or lack thereof] of Marvel overprint policy lies.

David’s full column follows…

<blockquote>(In best sing-song voice) Sommmeone hit a neeerrrve…

A recent Marvel news conference took a surprising turn when Marvel reps lashed out at CBG columnist Heidi MacDonald, who stated in passing in one column that “most retailers” were not supportive of, or even pleased about, Marvel’s minimal reorder/reprint policy.

I say “minimal” to avoid anyone jumping up, waving their hand to get attention, and saying, “Ah, but what about when such-and-such was reprinted.” What I’m talking about is a routine policy of going back to press on hot titles so retailers can have them in their store. Or having enough copies available to compensate for damaged or strayed copies. Not a reprint or overprint policy so restrictive that when a title is overprinted, it becomes basis for a press release.

When Heidi said “most,” my assumption (and yes, I know the dangers of assuming, but let us go out on a limb) was that she meant most retailers to whom she had spoken, or most retailers she saw complaining loudly and repeatedly in such venues as Comicon.com. In the meantime, Marvel has stated that most retailers they have spoken to—the Fortune 300—like the policy just fine, thank you very much. Supposedly the Fortune 300 is far too busy making money to go on websites and make a fuss about how rosy everything is. And the only reason lesser mortals are complaining about it is, presumably, because they’re not too busy making money and so have lots of time to go around and vent about their ill treatment. “We’re too busy running our businesses to write letters or go on message boards,” we’re told.

Of course, if we carry this thought process through to its logical end, one would wonder why Marvel execs apparently have copious amounts of time to go and vent about their ill treatment at the hands of others. Why aren’t they too busy making money and running their business? Two conclusions come to mind. Either the Marvel braintrust isn’t making money and therefore has time on its hands to complain. Or the Marvel braintrust is making money, but making money is not mutually exclusive to bewailing one’s status.

But let’s not jump to conclusions, because That Would Be Bad.

So therefore, the assumption is that Heidi must be dead wrong because she presumably hasn’t spoken to nearly as many retailers as Marvel.

Maybe. Maybe not. How Marvel could possibly know this to be true, I haven’t a clue. Marvel, meantime, claims in a letter labeled “The Truth,” that they have been seeking out “reasonable input” from retailers. The thing is, “Truth” is more subjective than objective. Everyone has their own truth, but—as Sportin’ Life said—it ain’t necessarily so. Not when it comes to human perception. If the Truth were absolute, then DNA evidence would always back up eyewitness testimony and no one would ever be freed from jail. How can Truth be absolute when the United States views itself as a paragon of liberty while people trying to kill us see us as the great Satan. Someone must be wrong. But everybody’s convinced they’re right.

The term “reasonable input” is also telling. The inference I draw is that, if the input isn’t what Marvel wants to hear, it’s by definition unreasonable. For instance, retailers seem to feel that Marvel should bear some, if not most, of the risks inherent in a non-returnable market. Marvel feels the opposite to be true, thus rendering any contrary opinion automatically unreasonable and thus to be disregarded or even lampooned. Retailers, however, don’t cotton to being lampooned or having their intelligence questioned simply because they disagree or even feel as if they’re fighting for their livelihoods. Both sides seem to believe the Super-Chicken caution—“You knew the job was dangerous when you took it”—should be the other guy’s problem. With most truths, the reality probably lies somewhere in the middle.

But let’s not jump to conclusions, because That Would Be Bad.

So Marvel turns around and plays the “most” game as well. Marvel, distancing itself from “nice” publishers (presumably DC, keying off Leo Durocher’s belief that nice guys finish last), claims that “most” retailers don’t like the way nice publishers do business. Is it the same “most” that Heidi chatted with? Is this a different “most?” Who’s the most with the most? Who, in fact, has a clearer handle on the truth? I have some thoughts on the matter.

But let’s not jump to conclusions, because That Would Be Bad.

Instead let us ponder the various aspects of this question by—in the best Clintonian style—defining terms that would seem, on the surface, to be self-evident. Let’s define “most.” And let’s define “retailer.”

Marvel has spoken to representatives of the Fortune 300. Heidi has likely talked to retailers as well, although how many has not been established. Bottom line, everyone has spoken to people they know. But nobody has spoken to everybody. If every single one of the Fortune 300 adored the policy, and they were “most,” then that means there’s only 599 retailers total out there. I don’t know how many there are, but I sure hope there’s more than that. Let’s say, just for giggles, that there’s 600 retailers. If Marvel spoke to 300 and Heidi spoke to 300, no one has a clear idea of what “most” retailers really think.

Let us also consider the concept of “retailer.” Marvel may very well be told by the owners of the Fortune 300 that they’re lovin’ the way things are shaking out for them, Marvel-wise. That’s fine. But the ground level retailers—the store managers, the sales clerks, the ground pounders, the grunts—they might paint a very different picture. They’re the ones seeing first hand the lost sales on books that are sold out or damaged. They’re the ones dealing with the cranky customers. Do you think every time they have to handle the fallout from Marvel policies, they instantly get on the horn with their bosses and crab about it? Doubtful.

Nor does it seem fair or right somehow that the only retailers whose opinions count are those large enough to be worth Marvel’s time. I would like to think that every retailer, no matter how big or small, is worth Marvel’s time. Perhaps Marvel feels that way too, at some level…but that’s sure not coming across. Plus, one of Marvel’s angles seems to be extolling the virtues of publishing policies which position comics as collectibles…which chills to the spine everyone who lost a bundle in the collectible market.

But let’s not jump to conclusions, because That Would Be Bad.

Let us instead attempt to get some real, live, honest to gosh conclusions based on facts.

I’m going to conduct a poll. On line, or snail mail, either one, take your pick. The poll is directed to retailers. Only retailers, please. Don’t write in as a fan and say, “My retailer told me.” I’m not looking for hearsay. I want straight from the horse’s mouth, a simple answer to a simple question, using Marvel’s own phrasing: Do you favor Marvel’s “no overprint/no reprint” policy? Don’t say, “They have the right to do it.” No one’s talking about rights. No one’s disputing Marvel’s right to do business as they see fit. All I want to know is, “Do you favor Marvel’s no overprint/no reprint policy?”

Frankly, I’ve no idea what to expect. I’ve done this small-scale over on <a href="http://www.peterdavid.net," target="_blank">www.peterdavid.net,</a> and the response was about 95% negative. But that was less than four dozen responses, and some of that was indeed hearsay. I want to do something controlled. As close to “scientific” as I can make it.

If you want to do it via snail-mail, write to PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705. Mark the envelope “Att: Retailer Poll.” If you want to reply on-line, I’ve set up a special e-mail account—MARVRETAILERS@aol.com. All caps.

You don’t have to go into detail about your opinions, but I’m not stupid: I know that some retailers will be outspoken, while others might be nervous (justified or not) about recriminations. I will respect all answers given in confidence. If you don’t want to be quoted in any subsequent articles or overviews of response, simply put the initials DNQ (for Do Not Quote) on either the letter or the subject line of the e-mail.

Furthermore, in order to try and get this poll out to as many folks as possible, I am giving one-time only authorization for reprinting of this column in whatever venue that anyone chooses to do so without any further permission requests, as long as the proper copyright notice and reference to its original publication in CBG is attached.

As I write this, it is October 24. Let’s give this until December 2 for all responses to be sent in.

I have absolutely no idea what sort of responses to expect. I apparently seem to be the only person in all this who doesn’t claim to know what most retailers think. I am, however, interested in finding out. I’d venture to say that most of us want to know, so we don’t jump to conclusions. Because that would be…you know…Bad.

(Copyright © 2002 Second Age, Inc. Peter David can be written to at PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705.)</blockquote>

[gOgIver]

My
retailer ordered twice as many Batman #608's and sold out in less than a week. He had one copy this week he was selling for $10.00 Now that it is being reprinted I expect the $10.00 to be the top price he'll get for it in the next couple of weeks. where it goes from there is anybodys guess.

[csGuy]

I've been thinking that someone should conduct some kind of poll about this, and I for one am glad that its finally being done.

Way to go PAD.

BUT, whats to stop someone from 'stuffing the ballot box', because someone could always write Peter using X number of different email addresses. I can already think of a certain person in whos interest it'd be best to get a favourable outcome out of this pole, and that'd be...you know...bad. :)

[LFKittsteiner]

Just hoping that this doesn´t result in another U-Decide...

LFKO.

[THOMAS]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/Creators/BiD.jpg" width="200" height="105" alt="BUT I DIGRESS by Peter David" align="right">Writer Peter David is at it again, using his weekly Comic Buyer’s Guide column But I Digress to challenge - or least place under the microscope – Marvel Comics’ policy and public statements. This time he’s conducting a poll, a poll of retailers to try to determine where retailer support [or lack thereof] of Marvel overprint policy lies.

David’s full column follows…

.





Marvel, distancing itself from “nice” publishers (presumably DC, keying off Leo Durocher’s belief that nice guys finish last), claims that “most” retailers don’t like the way nice publishers do business. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Really?Must be getting data from that same pool as the pole where 85% of smokers supported raising cigerette taxes and banning smoking in bars and public places in NY.I mean what smoker does'nt want to pay 7.50 a pack not to be able to smoke them anywhere.The same guys who want to be bullied and spit at by people they keep in business I would bet.

[Tom Daylight]

I have great respect for Mr David and his work, but I think he's wasting his time. Marvel has made its decision and there's no real reason for them to change it - and their audience is the readers not the retailers. Note that this is a publisher not a government... a survey might seem useful but at the end of the day it's only sales that count.

On the other hand it's good press for Peter David with the opposed retailers and could incite them to increase their orders for his books. And retailers happy with the policy won't be affected either way. So fair enough.

[J.C. Bakken]

[quote]Originally posted by Fetsur:
<strong>a survey might seem useful but at the end of the day it's only sales that count.</strong><hr></blockquote>

At the end of the day? I now know where you work, dude. :D :p ;) :D

But seriously, I can understand why David is dooing this, I can also see that he ain't gonna work for Marvel beyond Captain Marvel. I know perfectly well he is doing this for the common good for everyone who loves comics, but if he was working for me I would start to see him as the problem child, which I would fire, and that as soon as possible. But, I hope he is not.

On the other hand, David is not going to get a correct respons to this. I get that, and to get something he could really use, he would have to hire Harris or some other market-research company. One who could do this either interviewing everyone in business(and that would be expencive), or a demographic survey(of some sort, I can't think of the right word, damnit it's 0130 am in my part of the world).

So to sum it up, this may create som controversy, but other than that, it's really pointless.

Now, Make My Marv! :)

[Kiruarracca]

I'm kind of curious myself to find out what the majority of retailers think, but I don't know if posting it online is the best way to go about it...there has to be some sort of record of the "Fortune 300", right? a listing of their names, and addresses? Could it be better to mail out letters to them individually, and have them submit it back? I'm just wondering about the ability to control who submits this information online, and how you can confirm they are actual retailers, or just some schmoe like me sending in saying I'm a retailer.

[TTROY]

I was curious about this my self , before newsarama crashed i peplied to that story challenging Jemas to tell us which retail,ers felt which way...who liked it and who didn't....

I for one want to know which retailers are the reader-friendly ones and which ones are the speculator happy greed mongers. The faster these guys are put out of business the better.

[Seric]

As a retailer, I'm glad for this, and will be telling PAD that I hate Marvel's policy.

[Captain Jim]

For the benefit of anyone who may not know, before he went into writing full time, Peter was Assistant Direct Sales Manager for Marvel, spending much of his time as a go-between for the publisher and the retailers. So I don't find his interest in this matter unusual at all. (And I can't wait to hear the response, though I have a pretty good idea what it will be.)

[Evil Rick Shea]

This is Rick Shea, I manage Famous Faces & Funnies in Melbourne, FL. We're a pretty good sized shop and it's possible we're in the "Fortune 300" of retailers. If not, we're definitely somewhere in the Fortune 500. Our average Diamond order is just shy of $3000 and our current invoice is almost $4300 (ouch!) for this upcoming Wednesday. Anyway, most of our business is comics (65% including graphic novels and back issues) and it's an ever-increasing percentage and total with the market having a better variety of product available for all audiences these days. We're doing better now than ever before in our nine-year history.
Anyway, I DON'T LIKE Marvel's no overprint policy. It's a joke that they expect us to have faith in their product when they don't. Here's some examples. I read and loved the Hood # 1. I ordered fairly conservatively on that comic, but put in a reorder the second I read it with no luck. I could have sold twice the number of copies of each issue of the whole mini-series if I had been able to get a few more copies of number one, but alas, there were none to be found. Granted, their excuse will be that I can order a bunch of the TPB and I will, but I would have rather had those extra number ones as it would have got more people hooked right from the get-go, and I still would have ordered a bunch of them as trades.
On the other side of the fence, Y the Last Man # 1 was a great book that I placed a few reorders on and was lucky enough to get at least a few of the reorders I placed. Then I upped my order for 2, then 3, then 4 and 5. In the last few months, because I was able to get a reprint of Y # 1& 2 (which I've offered with a ((so far ununsed)) money back guarantee) I was able to increase MONTHLY SALES on Y from less than ten subs to selling out of just under a hundred copies of # 3 and # 4. It's a big sleeper hit that is doing well for a lot of stores and because of DC's willingness to get a quality book in the hands of readers who want to READ them, I will continue to sell about a hundred copies A MONTH of this Vertigo title, whereas I couldn't get ANY extra readers into the Hood without any copies of # 1 to go around. That means that Y the Last Man is my fourth best-selling title right behind Batman, Ultimates (when it ships), and Amazing Spider-Man.
Another example is when Diamond screws up our order and we end up missing a book which they haven't even printed enough to fill damage or shortage replacements. It's possible that's on Diamond's head and they should order a few more of each. Chamber # 1 and X-Statix # 2 were two recent books that I had to hunt all around for sometimes buying them from other retailers out of town through Mail Order at cover price, reselling them at cover price, losing money on them just to keep our customers happy because Marvel doesn't think they should overprint at all. This sort of stuff happens all the time, whether it's damages, shortages or just not being able to get any reorders and we're finally through taking the chance of ordering books that we can't sell. I'd rather put that money towards DC, Crossgen, Dark Horse, and the occassional Image or indy book that jumps out at us rather than being scared into ordering too many copies of Killraven or God forbid Marville because we can't properly guess exactly what to order and know we can't get more if we do have a demand for them. So we've cut our orders to exact sales on these titles and we'll only stand behind a few Marvel books that we know will ship when they are supposed to.
It's because of Marvel's no overprint policy and their lack of respect for retailers that has more of our money going to all the other companies while our Marvel orders are slowly getting lower and lower each month. All their hype usually leads to nothing but BS. No one sans a handful of readers are coming in here looking for the Call of Duty even after all the publicity they got acting like it was going to be the next BIG thing. We trusted our gut and haven't got stuck with tons of those books like a lot of retailers did because they were scared into raising their initial reorders, knowing they would NOT get reorders if they had a demand for them.
This is definitely a reader's market right now, and a second printing of Batman # 608 won't hurt the "value" of the first print, which I currently have plenty of copies left on my shelf at cover price. Luckily, the second print will enable more people to jump on this story and read all twelve issues, which is good for readers, retailers, and DC. I don't see how anyone marking their last copy up to $10.00 is going to help anyone but that greedy retailer. Bill Jemas' BS excuses don't make any sense.
Anyway, I've rambled enough. Just thought I would let you know what we think of Marvel's no overprint policy. Every other retailer I've spoken to feels the same. I've never met any of these supposed Top 300 retailers that feels different.
- Evil Rick Shea
Famous Faces & Funnies
Melbourne, FL

[Minute Man]

Hi,
All I can say is my best friend owns one of the 5 comic book stores left in New Orleans and I'm pretty friendly with the manager of another shop; both have choice words for Marvel's reprint policy. These are stores that are clean, cater as best as possible to their customers and want to have whatever the comic book reader might want. These are also stores that pretty much exist from month to month. To ask them to read the tea leaves and over order Marvel books on the chance they might take off just seems to put a lot of pressure on the main outlet Marvel needs to sell their product. It would seem to me that such a hardline in regard to this policy limits the flexibilty of the retailer to best serve the comic book reading public. That is bad news for the frontline comic book shop owners which means its bad news for Marvel.

[Michael Eidson]

I just think that Marvel should concentrate more on helping retailers get the comics in the hands of the readers first, and, if they must, the collectors second. I mean, this whole issue about limiting print runs for collectibility's sake is a bit ridiculous. When's the last time comics have really been valuable?

[otter]

Ever since Marvel started this new reprint policy, I've been asking various retailers both in stores and at conventions what they thought of the policy. I cannot recall a single retailer that said they liked the policy.

Does anyone else think it's funny the way DC has to issue out a big press release now every time they reprint a book? And every time I read an interview with a DC exec, it seems like all they talk about is their reprint policy. The interviewer will ask something like, "Does DC plan on dropping the Comic Code?" and the DC exec will find some way to mention DC's generous reprint policy in his answer.

I'm not sure what's worse--Marvel trying to convince the public that most retailers like their reprint policy or DC trying to milk this issue for all its worth.

[TomBeland]

You'll never know how important the retailer is until you begin to publish your own comics. There's no denying this.

While readers invest their time and money in comics, retailers have also invested their livelihoods. There can never be enough respect given to the retailers, in my opinion.

Never... EVER... underestimate the middleman.

[John Gavin]

I will be writing to Peter David with my opinion, but I also wanted to post it here. I would also like to know who the top 300 are. My average monthly Diamond order is between $5000-6000 wholesale. I also by through other distributors and direct when available. I have never been contacted by Marvel and asked my opinion, so that must mean I am an insignificant account by their standards.

The best examples I can use deal with how Marvel & DC handle shortages. I sold out of Batman #608 all at cover price, but was shorted 8 copies of my original shipment. This week I am receiving 7 copies to replace those. Not 100% but close. I was shorted Punisher #14. Just 3 copies but Marvel was unable to replace them. With the lack of care at Diamonds Memphis Warehouse, shortages are an every week problem.

Now I will us the example of a new book. I ordered 45 copies of Ultimate Daredevil & Elektra, but for some reason my customers did not care for it, so I am stuck with 26 unsold copies as of today. I probably will sell at least another 10 copies but I will still be stuck with 16 unsold copies. I ordered 30 copies of Aquaman #1, based on preorders. If I sell 26 copies, which I believe I will in the first few days, I will be able to reorder the book. If I don't sell out I will not be stuck with extra copies.

Marvel might like their 300 top stores, but they should realize that there are more stores out their grossing $100,000-250,000 a year and added together we probably make up the bulk of Marvel's business.

[THOMAS]

would retailers order direct from publishers and cut out the middle man [diamond]?

[Tim]

[quote]Originally posted by THOMAS:
<strong>would retailers order direct from publishers and cut out the middle man [diamond]?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Marvel tried this in the early-mid 90s, and it backlashed badly. It's what lead to there being only one major distributor, and Marvel's bankruptcy. For one thing, it's a lot cheaper for a publisher to let another company handle the distribution, and Marvel for one cannot afford to distribute themselves. DC might be able to, they did have the option to buy Diamond, but over all that's a logistical hassle most publishers would rather not deal with.

[Hdefined]

Of course this poll will prove nothing, though it does hint at PAD's intentions, ever since U-Decide, of disagreeing with the New Marvel. I mean, he was a pretty big player in 90's Marvel, so I can see his affinity for the company. Maybe, after more incidents arrise, he'll lead a boycott :) damn that would be cool, even if most of the books I buy are marvel. I still like marvel, but I hate them more than ever before. And if Jemas thinks the negative attention will get them more sales, then no, I'm not actually buying more marvel than ever, significantly less actually, but still a bit

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by J.C. Bakken:
But seriously, I can understand why David is dooing this, I can also see that he ain't gonna work for Marvel beyond Captain Marvel. I know perfectly well he is doing this for the common good for everyone who loves comics, but if he was working for me I would start to see him as the problem child, which I would fire, and that as soon as possible. But, I hope he is not.<hr></blockquote>
wow. i really was going to leave this one alone because i sound off way too often, but.... in a nutshell: this sort of mentality is exactly what is wrong with our culture. it's what has so sorely wounded the comic's industry, it's what has lead to Americans being less free than at any point in our history since the Revolution, it's what destroys the lives of far too many people. it's stupidity in it's ugliest, most malevolent form. to point out what is wrong or to dare to question the status quo is wrong? to be a "problem child?" ouch. one should be terminated for attempting to improve things? gee, sounds like the road to fascism to me. ugly, ugly, thought.

[quote]So to sum it up, this may create som controversy, but other than that, it's really pointless.

Now, Make My Marv! :) <hr></blockquote>
pointless? gee, i guess that's right; the possibility of Marvel reconsidering their incredibly short-sighted and ill-conceived policies is probally pointless. by extension so too would be the possibility of Marvel using their considerable clout in the marketplace to expand the comics market beyond a speculative niche market into a viable mainstream entertainment medium is pointless as well. and, of course, the belief that a business should be run in a reasonably moral and fair capacity is "pointless" as well. (what? we should pay for damaged product or simply go without? riiight- i'd bet you're also the kind of person who has absolutely no problem returning the entree that you ordered in a restaurant because you "don't like it"- even though it's exactly as it should be, and expect it replaced or removed from your bill; but it's o.k. if it's a comics publisher shipping bad goods or not even providing WHAT WAS ORDERED- what a dubious mentality.) sigh, i guess it's all up to D.C..
again.

[William Coate]

Wow Danzo you hit it right on the mark!

WC

[danzo]

thanks.

[northern soul daz]

Talk of fascism being on the rise is being too dramatic. This is only comic books we are talking about !

I really can't see what the fuss is all about.
If I miss the first issue of a comic book I want, or a series becomes hot for some reason, I can still sleep at nights because I know that the trade paperback will be just around the corner.

The Jim Lee Batman run is an example. ( it works for Marvel books as well)
I didn't even contemplate buying his first issue. It would be sold out before I got to the shop.
So I've planned to buy the trade when it appears.
Who knows ? I might be doing myself a favour. It may suck big time.
In that case, I won't buy the trade....I'll buy something else instead.

The comic shop owners....
always seem to want any risk of running a business cut out completely.
That is totally unrealistic.

I agree that if an order has not been sent in full ( a few copies missing), they should be able to get the books.
If a comic has been under ordered, then it's the comic shop owners fault.

Having said all that, I feel Peter David is making a mountain out of a mole-hill.
This subject isn't really all that important.
Maybe he was bored ?

[kossori]

Daz,

Would you mind mentioning who your retailer is?
I'm sure he would like to know.

-kossori

[Academic]

I completely agree with Daz.

For those who want to question my qualifications on this: I help out at my local retailer when they're short on employees. I also help out someone who works exclusively as a supplier of back issues.

In both cases, the person doing the ordering understands full well the importance of keeping an eye on the market, demand, and what's happening in the comic industry at the moment.

Someone earlier talked about his experience with Y- THE LAST MAN #1. The retailer I work with had a completely different experience. Since Vertigo books routinely sell just one or two copies (at best), ordering five copies of Y- #1 seemed extremely dangerous. When they sold out the first day, he put a request in for ten more copies and was told it was sold out. Nobody here wants to start a series at #2, so he's stuck now with increased orders on #2 and #3.

So Marvel books aren't available for reorder -- that doesn't keep the book out of people's hands, especially with the posting of the issues on the internet, reprinting them with extra issues (Mighty Marvel Must Haves), and putting the story right into trade.

That's helped the speculator market -- and I've seen it, what with the new BATMAN barely getting cover price because there's so many copies out there. BUT, what many are forgetting, is that as a result of increased demand for Marvel books orders for Marvel books have increased and the retailers -- the smart retailers -- are putting more stock in pre-orders, which is where the safe money is. (50% of the two stores I work with get their comic sales from pre-orders.)

Now, I don't think Marvel's completely blameless. Marvel's biggest mistake -- in my opinion -- is not making sure there is a small, extra percentage of the print run made for insurance against damages and missing copies. That hurts retailers who are expecting a complete shipment to work with.

But, like someone posted earlier, what the retailers get with an open reprint policy is a safety net against risk that completely absolves them of any problems.

That results in what I see more and more and more at the comic shows I work at or attend: vendors bring the sold out Marvel books, the variant covers on Image books and Silver Age books. The rest of the books today are in the cheap bins because there's still too many out there and nobody seems to care.

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by northern soul daz:
<strong>Having said all that, I feel Peter David is making a mountain out of a mole-hill.
This subject isn't really all that important.
Maybe he was bored ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're not quite wrapping yourself around something.

"But I Digress," for the most part, is a column that reacts to things that others say and do. It doesn't initiate. It responds.

What sparked this particular one, in case you weren't paying attention, is that the head honchos of the largest publisher in the industry set both barrels and fired on, of all people, an on-line journalist because she stated in CBG that "most retailers" don't like the reorder policy.

I don't recall that her comment sparked much, if any, discussion when she first made it. But Marvel turned around and made it the focus of a press conference and publicly castigated both the reporter and the publication.

In short, the mountain was built by someone else.

I'm just skiing down it.

PAD

[Evil Rick Shea]

There wouldn't be a problem with the "Mighty Marvel Must Haves" if they would reprint every book that someone was looking for, but so far it's only been a handful of titles. There's no way they can make EVERYONE happy in this situation. For Marvel to not overprint even a few percent for such a small cost per issue to "scare" retailers into ordering more up front isn't going to work anymore either. A lot of retailers are claiming that they short-ordered Captain Marvel #2, Legend of the Spider-Clan 1 or had a problem with some oily substance through some printing error on a lot of copies of Captain America # 4 or other books that were shorted through Diamond's mistakes. Those retailers can't sell more of that or the next issue if they can't get replacements because Marvel is too short-sighted to have faith in their product.

I must say I disagree that just because a book is plentiful it's worthless. There are plenty of copies of Batman #608, but still not enough to fill demand, so DC is going ahead with a second printing. If there are 200,000 copies total of that book, hopefully, in a perfect world, it would mean 200,000 have read and hopefully enjoyed the issue rather than retailers or collectors stockpiling them for their collectibility.
Incidentally, ACADEMIC, if you still have those Y the Last Man # 2 and especially # 3, please let me know as I have plenty of customers looking for them, I'd be happy to buy them off you. Please email me at EvilRick77@aol.com.

- Evil Rick
Famous Faces & Funnies

[davi0850]

First let me say this. I love comics. Not retailers, not publishers, not distributers, but comics. I spend close to $40 every week on comics. Thats $160 a month. I know people who have lower monthly payments on their cars. I am not stating this to whine about it, quite the opposit, it is MY choice to spend this money. If I did not like it, I would not spend it. I buy Image, Dark Horse, DC, Marvel, Dreamwave, and Bongo comics. I don't buy Crossgen or the others not because of business practices, but because thier books don't "speak to me." And that is my point. I have been listening to these arguments for years and I finally have felt the need to post. As much as I may like my retailer, I do not wake up on Wednesday mornings and go "yeah! to day is the day I get to give money to my retailer! No. I wake up on Wednesday mornings and say "yeah! todays the day I get my comics! My guess is that is true for almost all of you as well. I don't collect comics to keep anyone in business, I collect comics because I love comics. We live in a capitalist society. There are good things and bad things that come from this. You can attach as many altruistic reasons to retailers, publishers, and distributers as you want but the bottom line to all of them is money and to be more specific, how to get "my" money. know there are some retailers out there who are fans, just like me, who run their businesses at a break even point (or in some cases less) but that was thier CHOICE. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to open a business that is (and always has been) a risky venture. When I turn in my previews book to my retailer every month I am guessing what I am going to like. The same should be true to a retailer who orders from a distributer who orders from a publisher who pays creators to creat characters, artwork and stories that they think the fans might like who would be willing to spend thier money on it. The power still comes from ME. I choose which books to spend my money on. Do I care whether Spider-Man or Batman has a Marvel or DC logo on it, whether my retailer gets his (or her)books from Diamond or the publisher directly, whether I spend my money at Bob's Comic Store or Barnes & Nobel Book Stores, Heck NO! All I care about is the quality of the book, the price of the book, and who the character, writer and artist is. Period, end of story. How all of you (Retailers, Publishers, and Distributers) do that, I really don't care. That is a discussion that you should have between yourselves. All of you should do whatever you have to do to get my money. For me (and I would bet 99% of the other fans and potential fans) all you have to do, is get me a high quality book at a reasonable price about a character(s) that I care about. How you meet that goal is up to you. After all this my real point is plain and simple. If you don't like a book, don't buy it! I know that this has been said many times before but I don't think it was heard. If you are a retailer, and don't like what a publisher or distributer is doing, than you have a choice. Stop using that publisher's product, grin and bear it, let them know your dissatisfaction in APPROPRIATE and OFFICAL ways and continue to use them to retain your clients who like thier products, or find yourself a business that has more stability and return to being just a fan. The FANs have the power! Buy what you like, don't buy what you don't and stop buying when you think a price has gone too high, and start buying that title when the price returns to an acceptable level. A loss of money or an increase in money is the only thing that will get retailers, publishers and distributers to make any decisions. Meanwhile can we please get back to the things that we really care about in comics and stop all the business practice discussions. This is supposed to be a fanzine is it not? All Comic Fans Have The Power, No Matter What Your Taste Is! I am now done ranting. Thank you for your time.

[J.C. Bakken]

[quote]Originally posted by danzo:
<strong>
pointless? gee, i guess that's right; the possibility of Marvel reconsidering their incredibly short-sighted and ill-conceived policies is probally pointless. by extension so too would be the possibility of Marvel using their considerable clout in the marketplace to expand the comics market beyond a speculative niche market into a viable mainstream entertainment medium is pointless as well. and, of course, the belief that a business should be run in a reasonably moral and fair capacity is "pointless" as well. (what? we should pay for damaged product or simply go without? riiight- i'd bet you're also the kind of person who has absolutely no problem returning the entree that you ordered in a restaurant because you "don't like it"- even though it's exactly as it should be, and expect it replaced or removed from your bill; but it's o.k. if it's a comics publisher shipping bad goods or not even providing WHAT WAS ORDERED- what a dubious mentality.) sigh, i guess it's all up to D.C..
again.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You missed my point didn't you?

But, to the prolem, which set your pants on fire; let's say you Bill Jemas, well at least the Jemas we as regualars om messageboard know him. Let's say you have an part-time employee, who is acting like he is really not comfortable withhow things work. And he is the only one who speaks in public. And, concider you are Jemas, as we know him to be an ass, wouldn't you fire him?

Now, this is my point:
<strong>On the other hand, David is not going to get a correct respons to this. I get that, and to get something he could really use, he would have to hire Harris or some other market-research company. One who could do this either interviewing everyone in business(and that would be expencive), or a demographic survey(of some sort, I can't think of the right word, damnit it's 0130 am in my part of the world).
</strong>

By the way danzo, I'm not american, but I guess you are just like the lazy americans you pointed out, and didn't check my "adresse". ;) :p

[TimeBandit]

"The comic shop owners....
always seem to want any risk of running a business cut out completely.
That is totally unrealistic."

Correct. Many would rather Marvel take all the risk, and is in fact what they are asking them to do.

They're asking a company who's finacial standing is still not 100% to print extra copies of book they MAY order IF they sell out. That's a big gamble, one I don't blame Marvel for not taking.

Look, complaints can be made for the Must Haves, but it's Marvel's attempt to to get readers to try something else along with the "hot" book they're buying it for. Imagine that, trying to get readers to try something new. Cross-promoting the new Captain America and Ultimates in the Truth, what a horrible concept. Sure, many will say they don't want the other books, but at least Marvel is trying something different.

In all honesty does a 2nd print completly fix the ordering situation in the first place? No. Does a collected 1 & 2? No. Lets look at Batman #608. Ok, you got some 2nd prints, and that magically ups your orders how for #609? Your collected Y The Last Man saved you how from selling out of #3? It only meets demand for a pre-existing product, but not future product. Should companies continue to overprint or reprint books so that retailers take no risk or responcibility on ordering?

I do the purchasing for one of the "Fortune 300" and often need to advance reorder future issues for "surprise hits" like Y the Last Man. That's my responcibilty to change my initial order to try to meet demand, not DC's. DC or Marvel may have confidence in a product like Y, but I don't expect them to take a risk and overprint because I have reservations on my numbers. I also don't blame them for only reprinting #1 & 2 when I've since sold out of #3 and #4 with increased orders. You know what, it happens. It happens with DC and with Marvel. Books sell out. They tend to sell out in more than one issue. I'm willing to bet Batman #609 will sell out. Should DC reprint that as well?

Why "pick on" DC? I'm not really, just illustrating a point. Many retailers are very much anti-Marvel for anti-Marvel's sake. It's my experience that a product sells only as well as the salesman behind it. If I walk into a shop where there's a constant bias against a product, guess what, I'm not going to feel comfortable buying it there. And I wont, someone else will get my money. DC and Marvel both try in their own ways to meet customer demand. DC has reprints, Marvel's trades come out waaay faster to get into readers hands and they have Must Haves. You can find things wrong in any situation, there's no pleasing everyone. It's a policy Marvel likes. I'm sure there are customers who are upset with individual store policies from retailers as well. So should you change on a daily basis based on that fact?

Billy Bardy

[northern soul daz]

Peter David,

"But I Digress," for the most part, is a column that reacts to things that others say and do. It doesn't initiate. It responds."

And very good "But I Digress" is.(when I get to read it)
I just feel this current topic is too small to focus on.

The current comics industry is getting more petty by the day.
Two major comics personalities battling it out in court over a few minor characters, being just the latest crime.

I know the comics industry and the adults that read them are seen as childish, but that is no surprise when the creators and comics companies do all they can to act like children in public.

I love reading comic books. Now if only the creators would concentrate on creating and the companies would concentrate on publishing, I'd be a lot happier and they would get more of my money than they already do. :)

[manosx]

Comics I don't buy because I couldn't get in on the ground floor and don't have the money to buy trades.
X-force/X-Statix
X-Treme X-Men
Captain America
Incredible Hulk
Elektra
I couldn't tell you how many mini's I never got because I missed #1, but at least Iceman, Nightcrawler, Muties, X-Factor, The Hood, and a bunch of others.

[alec_burkhardt]

[quote]Originally posted by TimeBandit:
<strong>"The comic shop owners....
always seem to want any risk of running a business cut out completely.
That is totally unrealistic."

Correct. Many would rather Marvel take all the risk, and is in fact what they are asking them to do.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you serious? Having an overprint/reprint policy in no way imposes all the risk on Marvel, or any other publisher. In fact the level of risk is still completely controlled by the publisher when they determine what to overprint and by how much. Currently Marvel is unwilling to take ANY risk, since they only print what has already been ordered and therefore must be paid for. Instead they require direct market retailers to assume all the risks involved in selling Marvel comics. What a wonderful business partner to have.

[quote]<strong>
They're asking a company who's finacial standing is still not 100% to print extra copies of book they MAY order IF they sell out. That's a big gamble, one I don't blame Marvel for not taking.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If it's such a big gamble, why does every other publisher do it? And I don't believe anyone has asked Marvel to haphazardly overprint every single comic they produce. To begin with they've asked that Marvel at least overprint enough to makeup for damages & lost orders - something that isn't the responsibility of retailers in any way yet retailers are the ones being forced to assume those risks. If Marvel wants to try to pass these risks on to the printers & shippers, fine; but that's not who they are imposing them on at the moment.

Secondly it's been suggested that Marvel could/should overprint, to some degree, issues that Marvel expects to perform better than initial orders indicate. Basically this is asking Marvel to have confidence in some of their products. A no overprint policy is essentially Marvel saying they have no faith in any of the comics they put out - they fully believe that once retailers & customers see the actual product no more will be desired. Isn't it nice to know Marvel thinks so little of their own material?

[quote]<strong>
In all honesty does a 2nd print completly fix the ordering situation in the first place? No. Does a collected 1 & 2? No. Lets look at Batman #608. Ok, you got some 2nd prints, and that magically ups your orders how for #609? Your collected Y The Last Man saved you how from selling out of #3? It only meets demand for a pre-existing product, but not future product. Should companies continue to overprint or reprint books so that retailers take no risk or responcibility on ordering?</strong><hr></blockquote>

As long as the direct market works on a non-returnable basis it is impossible for the retailers not to be assuming risks. So you can keep making specious statements like the above, but you're not making a valid point.

Overprinting or reprinting of course will not magically remove financial risk from retailers. But intelligent & reasonable overprinting or reprinting does provide a way for both publishers & retailers to profit. It allows both to see profits they otherwise have no means of capturing. Yes there is some risk involved in attempting to capture these profits, but once again that risk can be managed without taking things to the extreme of simply giving up on these profits. That's what Marvel has done.

[quote]<strong>
I do the purchasing for one of the "Fortune 300" and often need to advance reorder future issues for "surprise hits" like Y the Last Man. That's my responcibilty to change my initial order to try to meet demand, not DC's. DC or Marvel may have confidence in a product like Y, but I don't expect them to take a risk and overprint because I have reservations on my numbers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you placed even a single reorder (as opposed to an advance reorder, which I understand to be placed prior to the initial printing) for any issue of Y the Last Man, you are in fact expecting DC to assume some of the risk. So the question is why aren't you asking the same of Marvel?

[quote]<strong>
I also don't blame them for only reprinting #1 & 2 when I've since sold out of #3 and #4 with increased orders. You know what, it happens. It happens with DC and with Marvel. Books sell out. They tend to sell out in more than one issue. I'm willing to bet Batman #609 will sell out. Should DC reprint that as well?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Reprint? Depends entirely on how quickly it sells out and what the remaining demand is. Reprinting is actually quite different from overprinting as it occurs after the initial print run has already begun selling. Reprinting could actually be handled with a no overprint policy - the biggest issue is likely to be the availability of printing capacity. Having a second printing (clearly identified as such to protect the "collectability" Marvel is so concerned about) that comes out the same week as the following issue isn't such a bad idea. And once a series finds its "level", then overprinting for anything other than replacements due to damages/shortages of course isn't necessary. But then again I haven't seen anyone ask for it either.

BTW, you are aware that DC has likely overprinted Batman #609. Maybe not enough to meet the demand that might crop up, but I'd bet they have overprinted it. It's just what DC does with titles they believe are going to be in demand. And even they get caught by surprise - why do you think there was a need to reprint the collected Y #1 & #2? It was a book that retailers wanted more of even after whatever amount DC had initially overprinted. And given the time frame, seeing those demands would allow DC to adjust the amount the overprint on #3 & #4.

That's one of the points of an overprint policy, it helps both the retailers & publisher find the true demand for the product. Marvel's no overprint policy sets an immediate artificial cap on possible demand. Rather an odd business philosophy for a product with a fixed price - limit demand possibility.

alec

[danzo]

[quote]Originally posted by J.C. Bakken:

You missed my point didn't you?<hr></blockquote> nope, i didn't... you can try to explain it away any way you like, but your earlier post is pretty clear; it's your opinion that YOU would fire such a disagreeable employee, with the implications that it's the sensible course of action and that such behavior of an employee earns them this disagreeable status. i stand by my earlier statement- that's an ugly, ugly worldview.

[quote]
By the way danzo, I'm not american, but I guess you are just like the lazy americans you pointed out, and didn't check my "adresse". ;) :p <hr></blockquote>
um, no. first, i didn't point out anything about "lazy" Americans; i mentioned that we've become shackled sheep. second, the fact that you are NOT AN AMERICAN is exactly why i chose that as an example: the point is to look at a thing for it's reality, not as seen through pre-conceived bias'. I.E. "America, Land of the Free" is anything but that, and this sort of "destroy all dissenters" mentality is largely responsible for that.
what Mr. David is doing is an interesting and usefull thing, he deserves credit, not damnation. let alone the fact that his career opportunities at Marvel are already bleak and this action might hurt him elsewhere as well, i'd say he's pretty courageous.
oh, and lest anyone think i'm a Marvel-Hater....WRONG!! i love Marvel. I love X-Books. and Fantastic ones, and Star-Spangled ones, and so many others. i just think it's wrong that the current management doesn't love Marvel enough to seek the best possible results for fans, creators, retailers, and themselves. prefering instead to stick to an ill-conceived decision that is all about immediate dollars and cents, while no thought is given to the long-term outlook.

[Mark Thorson]

[TimeBandit]

My original post - Many would rather Marvel take all the risk, and is in fact what they are asking them to do.

"Are you serious? Having an overprint/reprint policy in no way imposes all the risk on Marvel, or any other publisher. In fact the level of risk is still completely controlled by the publisher when they determine what to overprint and by how much."

Which, as you say yourself, is still a risk. Why should Marvel be asked risk anything? They're a business that's facing financial problems, you don't overextend yourself if it's not 100% needed.

"Currently Marvel is unwilling to take ANY risk, since they only print what has already been ordered and therefore must be paid for. Instead they require direct market retailers to assume all the risks involved in selling Marvel comics. What a wonderful business partner to have."

Then I would assume you think that retailers who do not order enough product are somehow out to screw the customer as well. That's it in a nut shell. If we apply this type of logic across the board, than retailers who are not willing to take a risk by OVERORDERING for the POSSIBILITY a customer MAY buy the product is just giving that person the royal screw job, isn't that right? Look at your statment and really think about what you're saying.

My original post - They're asking a company who's finacial standing is still not 100% to print extra copies of book they MAY order IF they sell out. That's a big gamble, one I don't blame Marvel for not taking.

"If it's such a big gamble, why does every other publisher do it?"

Well, for one, they're not in Chapter 11.

"And I don't believe anyone has asked Marvel to haphazardly overprint every single comic they produce. To begin with they've asked that Marvel at least overprint enough to makeup for damages & lost orders - something that isn't the responsibility of retailers in any way yet retailers are the ones being forced to assume those risks."

Well, I take it you're not a retailer or you would be aware that they do indeed overprint for these types of things these days, and have been for awhile now. And, in many cases, there are copies left to reorder if you're willing to try.
I don't see any case for this being a risk, it's a uninformed statement.

"Secondly it's been suggested that Marvel could/should overprint, to some degree, issues that Marvel expects to perform better than initial orders indicate. Basically this is asking Marvel to have confidence in some of their products. A no overprint policy is essentially Marvel saying they have no faith in any of the comics they put out - they fully believe that once retailers & customers see the actual product no more will be desired. Isn't it nice to know Marvel thinks so little of their own material?"

Marvel has stated, and is effective with Truth #1, that it will create Marvel Must Haves to be ordered at the time of a "hot" book to insure readers can get copies. Look, I don't agree with pushing books as collectable, but the fact is 90% of people who buy comics bag them up, store them in a box and will check to see how their book's value is doing. This is a collectable market no matter how you want to paint it, people collect comics. Marvel makes their product collectable, which makes it hot, which can turn into increased sales if you know what you're doing. Complaining about it never increases your profits.

My original post - In all honesty does a 2nd print completly fix the ordering situation in the first place? No. Does a collected 1 & 2? No. Lets look at Batman #608. Ok, you got some 2nd prints, and that magically ups your orders how for #609? Your collected Y The Last Man saved you how from selling out of #3? It only meets demand for a pre-existing product, but not future product. Should companies continue to overprint or reprint books so that retailers take no risk or responcibility on ordering?

"As long as the direct market works on a non-returnable basis it is impossible for the retailers not to be assuming risks. So you can keep making specious statements like the above, but you're not making a valid point."

Actually it's very valid. Reprints solve nothing for future orders, fact.

"Overprinting or reprinting of course will not magically remove financial risk from retailers. But intelligent & reasonable overprinting or reprinting does provide a way for both publishers & retailers to profit. It allows both to see profits they otherwise have no means of capturing. Yes there is some risk involved in attempting to capture these profits, but once again that risk can be managed without taking things to the extreme of simply giving up on these profits. That's what Marvel has done."

So will intelligent and reasonable ordering. Lets look at simple economics as well, no one ever goes out of business by constantly selling out of product. You do, however, risk loosing profits on needlessly creating product with no definate demand... which is what overprinting does first and foremost.

My original post - I do the purchasing for one of the "Fortune 300" and often need to advance reorder future issues for "surprise hits" like Y the Last Man. That's my responcibilty to change my initial order to try to meet demand, not DC's. DC or Marvel may have confidence in a product like Y, but I don't expect them to take a risk and overprint because I have reservations on my numbers.

"If you placed even a single reorder (as opposed to an advance reorder, which I understand to be placed prior to the initial printing) for any issue of Y the Last Man, you are in fact expecting DC to assume some of the risk. So the question is why aren't you asking the same of Marvel?"

Obviously you missed the point. I say later that I'm using DC as an example to the fact that EVERY PUBLISHER sells out of product and I DON'T expect them to just comtinually overprint because I missed the boat. I'm also used DC as an example because it's the common one used by Marvel bashers to show Marvel "how it's done", well DC isn't perfect either folks.

"Having a second printing (clearly identified as such to protect the "collectability" Marvel is so concerned about) that comes out the same week as the following issue isn't such a bad idea."

It's called a Must Have, see above for the Truth.

"BTW, you are aware that DC has likely overprinted Batman #609. Maybe not enough to meet the demand that might crop up, but I'd bet they have overprinted it. It's just what DC does with titles they believe are going to be in demand. And even they get caught by surprise - why do you think there was a need to reprint the collected Y #1 & #2? It was a book that retailers wanted more of even after whatever amount DC had initially overprinted. And given the time frame, seeing those demands would allow DC to adjust the amount the overprint on #3 & #4."

I'm aware of no such overprint on Batman #609, and they usually announce that type of thing if it's going to be any signifigant amount. BTW, DC did not come close to overprinting enough on Y The Last Man #3 & 4, and that's if they ever did which I highy doubt. And you know what, I'm not going to complain because I know there will be a trade paperback down the line, that my orders for #5 will likly meet demand and that people truely intersted in reading the book will do so when the trade comes out. It's called putting a positive spin on things, and it works wonders when you can pass that on to customers.

We sell increasing more books that were deemed "hot" or impossible to find even without ever getting back early issues, it's all how you handle it. If your take is "Marvel is a bunch of jackasses because they don't overprint Ultimates" than obviously you just killed any potential sales instead of simply saying "you know there's a trade coming right around the corner". Fact is, if they're eager to get a reprint they'll be just as eager to get a trade. And better to get a trade then a collected #1 & 2, miss # 3 & 4 and pick back up at #5 and wind up buying a trade anyway to get the full story. But that's a whole different arguement. And I have invested too much time with this already.

[paulski]

[quote]Originally posted by TimeBandit:
<strong>Look, I don't agree with pushing books as collectable, but the fact is 90% of people who buy comics bag them up, store them in a box and will check to see how their book's value is doing. This is a collectable market no matter how you want to paint it, people collect comics.</strong><hr></blockquote>

90%? I don't think so.

I bag and box them - after reading them, of course - but I really couldn't care less what happens on the back issue market. I only want to keep them in good condition to stand the test of time, not to preserve them for reselling at a later date. I have no interest in selling any of my comics. Why would I bother buying them in the first place? I'm sure there is a percentage of people who do what you suggest, but it wouldn't be half, let alone 90%.

That sounds more like Jemas arithmetic to me... ;)

[alec_burkhardt]

I've edited anything that wasn't new. Hopefully nothing is lost, but skim back up if confused.

[quote]Originally posted by TimeBandit:
<strong>Which, as you say yourself, is still a risk. Why should Marvel be asked risk anything? They're a business that's facing financial problems, you don't overextend yourself if it's not 100% needed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you realize that what you say here is almost complete nonsense? "Why should Marvel be asked to risk anything?" Because they are a business, and all business enterprises require the assumption of some risk in order to make a profit. If Marvel isn't interested in making any money, you are 100% correct that Marvel shouldn't assume any financial risks. But if Marvel wants to grow their profits from comic publishing (and maybe they don't; perhaps comics are just there to give them a library of IP they can make money off of elsewhere) it's normal to expect them to be assuming some of the risks.

[quote]<strong>Then I would assume you think that retailers who do not order enough product are somehow out to screw the customer as well. That's it in a nut shell. If we apply this type of logic across the board, than retailers who are not willing to take a risk by OVERORDERING for the POSSIBILITY a customer MAY buy the product is just giving that person the royal screw job, isn't that right? Look at your statment and really think about what you're saying. </strong><hr></blockquote>

This does not logically follow from what I said in the least. Especially since I mentioned nothing about retailers over or under ordering. Your argument appears to be that it is solely the retailers job to care about the customers. Mine is that it is both Marvel & retailers job to care about getting sufficient product available for customers. Since you work for a retailer, I can kind of see where you might have developed this feeling; but essentially it means you've already given up hope of Marvel being a business partner rather than merely a supplier of product. All retailers I've ever dealt do essentially attempt to over-order since they order issues for their racks not just for subscribers.

[quote]<strong>Well, I take it you're not a retailer or you would be aware that they do indeed overprint for these types of things these days, and have been for awhile now. And, in many cases, there are copies left to reorder if you're willing to try.
I don't see any case for this being a risk, it's a uninformed statement.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, given the continuous and numerous complaints that come up every time the issue is mentioned, it's quite obvious that Marvel does not sufficiently overprint to meet the damage/mistakes that occur. But if you want to simply call me uninformed without any facts to support you, feel free.

[quote]<strong>
Marvel has stated, and is effective with Truth #1, that it will create Marvel Must Haves to be ordered at the time of a "hot" book to insure readers can get copies. Look, I don't agree with pushing books as collectable, but the fact is 90% of people who buy comics bag them up, store them in a box and will check to see how their book's value is doing. This is a collectable market no matter how you want to paint it, people collect comics. Marvel makes their product collectable, which makes it hot, which can turn into increased sales if you know what you're doing. Complaining about it never increases your profits.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Prove it. Now I wouldn't be surprised if this is true of the clientelle of the "Fortune 300" store you work for, but that says more about your store than the industry. But if 90% of comic buyers are really doing as you say, the industry is essentially dead already and just doesn't realize it. And if Marvel wants to be a collectable manufacturer, they really aren't going about it the right way since they are allowing all of the profits from "collectability" to escape from their hands and go to the retailers. Very stupid business model.

[quote]<strong>Actually it's very valid. Reprints solve nothing for future orders, fact.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But that wasn't the point I said was invalid. It's also not a point that has much to do with the issue really. Reprints provide another way of getting comics into the hands of people who want them and missed out because a title sold out. If there is sufficient demand (and no one is saying a comic should be reprinted in 100 retailers each say they need 2 copies) a reprint not only provides income by itself but also provides another opportunity to bring in new readers to a series that are otherwise lost.

[quote]<strong>
So will intelligent and reasonable ordering. Lets look at simple economics as well, no one ever goes out of business by constantly selling out of product. You do, however, risk loosing profits on needlessly creating product with no definate demand... which is what overprinting does first and foremost.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Once again, are you serious? Any company which has faith in it's product "risks losing profits" all the time. That's how they grow. And based on these statements, I assume the "Fortune 300" store you order for only orders comics sufficent to meet pre-orders/pull-lists/subscriptions? I mean, otherwise you guys would be risking losing profits and we know how bad that is.

[quote]<strong>
Obviously you missed the point. I say later that I'm using DC as an example to the fact that EVERY PUBLISHER sells out of product and I DON'T expect them to just comtinually overprint because I missed the boat. I'm also used DC as an example because it's the common one used by Marvel bashers to show Marvel "how it's done", well DC isn't perfect either folks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, you've missed the point of the entire issue of overprinting vs. no overprinting. No one is asking that ANY PUBLISHER continually overprint any comic. Everyone (except you apparently) realizes that a reasonable overprint policy does not mean that the overprint will be sufficient to meet every unexpected demand. Marvel's no overprint provides Marvel no opportunity to capitalize on ANY unexpected demand for a product. But you continue to throw up this straw-man argument all you want; I'm sure you think you are making some kind of point.

[quote]<strong>
It's called a Must Have, see above for the Truth.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, finally Marvel is listening to retailer complaints and making a minimal effort. It's a small bending of their no overprint policy somewhat disguised so they don't have to admit they were wrong. Of course the value of doing a reprint that is repackaged with other products that customers do not want and now must pay extra for could be debated for quite a while.

[quote]<strong>
I'm aware of no such overprint on Batman #609, and they usually announce that type of thing if it's going to be any signifigant amount. BTW, DC did not come close to overprinting enough on Y The Last Man #3 & 4, and that's if they ever did which I highy doubt. And you know what, I'm not going to complain because I know there will be a trade paperback down the line, that my orders for #5 will likly meet demand and that people truely intersted in reading the book will do so when the trade comes out. It's called putting a positive spin on things, and it works wonders when you can pass that on to customers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's normal for DC (and everyone other than Marvel) to overprint all their comics to some extent. An intelligent overprint policy of course entails that the amount of overprint not be announced ahead of time. Otherwise unethical retailers will intentionally short their initial orders. An intelligent overprint policy also means that for many books the overprint is only enough to cover damages/losses/errors. For books that the publisher believes are under-ordered, the overprint should be a percentage of what the publisher believes is the under-order; meaning that if the publisher is correct, retailers still won't be able to get enough to meet all demand, but they'll be able to get some. An intelligent publisher would look at the orders & reorders for Batman 608 when determining how much to overprint 609.

Sure, for something as large as Batman #608 they made an announcement about the overprint. But that was also largely an advertising move to generate additional hype. Of course retailers so under-ordered 608 that even after the significant reprint they did a second printing that was 30% of the original printing. Thank god retailers had such a good understanding of their customers' wants. (and that's not a slam on retailers - it's recognition of how difficult the task actually is.)

[quote]<strong>
We sell increasing more books that were deemed "hot" or impossible to find even without ever getting back early issues, it's all how you handle it. If your take is "Marvel is a bunch of jackasses because they don't overprint Ultimates" than obviously you just killed any potential sales instead of simply saying "you know there's a trade coming right around the corner". Fact is, if they're eager to get a reprint they'll be just as eager to get a trade. And better to get a trade then a collected #1 & 2, miss # 3 & 4 and pick back up at #5 and wind up buying a trade anyway to get the full story. But that's a whole different arguement. And I have invested too much time with this already.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, there are many ways to try and work around Marvel's no overprint policy. None of them do anything to prove that the no overprint policy is an intelligent business decision by Marvel however. And none of them really work with the non-regular/casual comic buyer the industry needs to attract in order to grow to healthier numbers. They also don't explain why the retailers should take ALL the risks and loss of profit (since that's what it is when a customer walks into a store, asks for a specific comic and the retailer doesn't have it - no matter who's responsible for the issue being sold out).

alec

[TylerS]

[quote]Originally posted by manosx:
<strong>Comics I don't buy because I couldn't get in on the ground floor and don't have the money to buy trades.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

How can you not have the money to buy the trades, but do have enough money to buy issues on a monthly basis? What annoys me is that the trades are CHEAPER than the monthly issues. For example, the HARDBACK Ultimate Spider-Man Vol 2 has 14 issues and will cost $18.99 at Buy.com with free shipping. Very few trades are more expensive on a per issue basis. I don't even want to think about Alias, Daredevil, and Elektra, which cost vastly more on a monthly basis. I sometimes ask myself if I can afford buying so many comics each month, not can I afford the much cheaper reprints. With two DDs selling this month (pre-order), I'm just about ready to go the reprint route on this one. Much cheaper.