View Full Version : JIC: WAR COMICS, THEN AND...?
MattBrady
04-12-2003, 01:25 PM
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/master2.jpg" width="200" height="271" border="0" hspace="2" align="right">by Mike Sangiacomo
It was "The Good War."
American soldiers fighting overseas never doubted the support of the folks back home.
The Nazis, the Japanese and to a less extent, Mussolini's fascists, presented a threat to the world that was so obvious, so frightening, that there seemed no other choice than resistance.
Comic books, being a mirror for society of the times, reflected that belief.
Adolph Hitler was as much a comic book villain as any mad scientist. Nazis and Japanese soldiers were the featured villains on cover after cover of Superman, Captain America and a host of lesser lights like Thrilling Comics, Blue Bolt and Zip Comics.
Comics sold by the millions each month as people were drawn to the colorful, caustic covers that promised them a few pages of victory. In 1941, more then 10 million copies of Superman Comics were sold.
Ten. Million.
Comic publishers would never again latch onto a war like they did in World War II. Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War and its sequel, "Gulf War II: The Search for Saddam," go largely unrecorded in the comics.
Today, comic publishers are far more circumspect than they were 60 years ago. They see the news. They see the thousands of protesters in the streets that oppose the war. They fear that there is no way to represent the war without angering some group somewhere, so they just don't do it.
That means we're not likely to see the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man battling Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard. Marvel President Bill Jemas said there is no absolute rule against it,
but it would be a tough sell.
"If a writer wants to send The Avengers to Iraq, and he has a great story to tell, we would allow it," said Jemas. "If I thought we were able to go out and do a story objectively, with humanity, and one that touches on all sides, we would do it."
But it's unlikely. After the tragedy of Sept. 11, a few superheroes hunted down generic terrorists, but no links were made to actual people or countries. For better or worse, no one wanted to take the risk of pointing a finger at a specific person, country, religion, or other motivating factor for the terrorist action.
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/usa10.jpg" width="200" height="290" border="0" hspace="2" align="left">"The truth is, we are fantasy writers, not journalists," Jemas said. "We write stories, we are not qualified to write about the war, even if they are only in comic books."
"We struggle with the issue," Jemas said. "There are some of our creators who support what the Bush Administration is doing and other who oppose it.”
In 411, Marvel's series of stories about peaceful alternatives to war which goes on sale this week there were some writers who wanted to make direct attacks on George Bush, Jemas said. "Even though I may personally agree with those sentiments, I chose not to publish those stories for the same reason I would not publish pro-war books," Jemas continued. "It's not a comic book's place to run propaganda anymore."
It was a different world back in the 1940s.
Those were the days when newsstands carried hundreds of comics each week that showed German and Japanese soldiers as monsters. Hitler, Hirohito and Mussolini got their tails kicked in everything from Action to Zip comics and all titles in between. Along with the main bad guys themselves, heroes in the early ‘40s were always busting Nazi or Japanese spy rings that were sending sensitive information to America’s enemies.
Heck, even Look Magazine got in on the game, commissioning a two-page spread entitled, “How Would Superman End World War II?” wherein Superman bashed tanks, swatted Nazi planes out of the sky, plucked Hitler out of his retreat, grabbed Stalin off of a Moscow balcony, and took them to Geneva, where the League of Nations found them guilty for unprovoked aggression against defenseless countries.
Michael Silberkleit, president of Archie Comics and son of the co-founder of the company (then called MLJ Comics) said readers won't be seeing Archie and Jughead wearing battle fatigues.
"We did our share of war stories in the 1940s when my father ran the company," he said, though with superheroes, not with the Riverdale crew. "And back in the 1991 Gulf War we distributed thousands of free Archie Comics to remind the soldiers of America, home and apple pie. We're getting ready to ship out thousands more to do it again.
"But that's about the extent of it," he said. "Comics are escapist literature."
MLJ Comics gave the world its first star-spangled superhero, The Shield, in Pep Comics #1 in the spring of 1940, more than a year before Captain America hit the stands and a year and a half before the U.S. entered the war on that day of infamy, Dec. 7, 1941. Cap worked for Timely Comics, which later became Atlas Comics and finally, Marvel Comics.
"We called the Nazis, ‘The Nordics’ for a while until America got used to the war," Silberkleit said.
MLJ's Shield spawned a veritable platoon of patriotic heroes from dozens of comic book companies, with costumes that looked like Betsy Ross designed them.
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/ex37.jpg" width="250" height="361" border="0" hspace="2" align="right">The patriotic power parade continued unabated through the 1940s with heroes like: Minute Man; the Star-Spangled Kid and Stripesy; the Fighting Yank; Captain Flag; Mr. America; Miss America; Spysmasher; Yank and Doodle; Yankee Doodle Jones; Uncle Sam; Wonder Woman; Major Victory; Citizen V; Captain Courageous; Captain Freedom; The Patriot; Yankee Boy; Flag Man and The Flag, to name but a few.
Even got the relatively gentle Captain Marvel once fought a villain called "Nippo the Nipponese."
Okay, release your cringe - subtlety was not a big commodity in those days.
But after the war, audiences were tired of Germans and Japanese comics took a lighter turn with teen titles, romance stories and crime comics. Most of those patriotic heroes, like old soldiers, just faded away.
In the 1950's Timely Comics (then called Atlas) had a mini-revival of its superhero trinity; Captain America, Human Torch and Sub-Mariner. Instead of Nazis, they fought Communists. But comics had fallen on tough times in the 1950s and the revival lasted about a year.
And even in the 1960s, communism was viewed as a threat to democracy as Iron Man, Giant-Man and the Avengers fought Russian spies and Soviet superheroes.
Then there were those wonderful early 1970s issues where Captain America, so disheartened by American political corruption, gave up his identity to become "Nomad, the man without a country." Then of course, there was also a The ‘Nam a pretty bold series for Marvel which told true-to-life stories about soldiers adventures in that unpopular war.
While Marvel and MLJ did their part, DC that got the most mileage of the World War II with a half-dozen comics set in that war which were published continuously from the early 1950s until the early 1980s. Heck, even the Justice Society, which still has monthly adventures in JSA can (depending upon which continuity you choose) trace its roots back to World War II, as the team was tracking down foreign saboteurs and spies on behalf of the FBI by their second issue as an official team (All-Star Comics #4). In later stories, it was revealed that many of the team’s members met regularly with FDR for marching orders.
When the big guns of the heroes scene in the ‘40s joined the service in their civilian identities (following the models set for them by movie stars of the time), FDR charged those who remained on the home front to form the All-Star Squadron, which, as a series, lasted from 1981-1987, and was set during World War II. Technically, the Squadron pre-dated the Justice Society, but again, that’s up to your own interpretation of continuity.
In perhaps one of the bolder retroactive continuity stories dealing with DC heroes and politics, it was revealed that the JSA disbanded in 1951 after refusing to unmask during an investigation of the House Un-American Affairs Committee.
But – the days of DC characters taking any role in wars and politics may be limited. When contacted recently, officials at DC Comics, flatly declined to discuss their role in wars; past, present or future.
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/Wfinest.jpg" width="200" height="286" border="0" hspace="2" align="left">While some of their heroes can trace their origins and glory days back to WWII, it should be noted that by and large, even back in the 1940s, DC was far less adventurous in dealing the with the Axis than Timely and MLJ.
With the exception of Joe Simon and Jack Kirby's Boy Commandos, DC was content to show their heroes fighting the war on the cover, which was plastered with patriotic slogans, making the images pop-culture propaganda of a sort, but - the bravado stopped there.
The stories inside usually dealt with the typical mobsters and evil scientists.
The covers urged readers to "Buy war bonds and stamps" to support the battle against the "Japanazis," a word that conveniently gave the enemies a single face.
The dramatic covers would show a patriotic Superman ripping the periscopes off German submarines, or sitting astride the cannons of an American battleship with Batman and Robin on the cover of World's Finest Comics #7 in 1941, but the stories would have nothing to do with the covers.
Still, the covers always were the best thing about Golden Age comics.
Alvin Schwartz, who wrote the Superman daily newspaper strip and numerous comics for DC, was asked to write a Superman comic putting the Man of Steel against the Nazis and the Japanese.
"I said no," said Schwartz, now 86, from his home in Chesterville, Ontario. "I was Jewish and obviously opposed to Hitler. But what could Superman do? He could just fly in there and clean the whole war up. It didn't seem right to involve him when so many real men were fighting and dying."
In later years, DC writers would explain the lack of superhero intervention by revealing that Hitler possessed "the Spear of Destiny" a magical instrument, which would have put superheroes under his control if they got too close. Convenient.
Schwartz said he had a problem with the typical depiction of the Japanese in comics, which was meant to be comical, but in today’s view was beyond offensive. Yet, the depictions served a propaganda purpose – dehumanize the enemy. It’s a standard psychological trick in any war. These aren’t people we’re fighting after all – they’re caricatures of humans. "I could not stand seeing Japanese people shown as yellow-skinned, with huge buckteeth and thick glasses," he said.
But over at Timely (Marvel), they couldn't get enough.
Hitler was the prime villain in the first 10 issues of Captain America Comics at Timely Comics. Nazis, along with Asian (called Orientals back then) were depicted as almost sub-humans at best, and of course, out and out monsters at worst. Before the Red Skull became a James Bondian style villain in more recent decades, he was the ‘40s equivalent of a movie monster.
Of course, there was a story where Cap dressed as a woman to sneak into Berlin and Buck dressed as “her” grandson, and no one questioned that the symbol of America could pass as a woman…but…let’s not talk about that here.
<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/aw11.jpg" width="200" height="305" border="0" hspace="2" align="right">Back to wartime action, the Human Torch, The Sub-Mariner and an assortment of "B" class superheroes spent issue after issue thwarting one Nazi or Japanese scheme after another. In fact, the Human Torch is credited with killing Hitler by burning him to death. If you didn't know that it's because with his dying words Hitler told an aide to tell the world he killed himself to avoid the posthumous humiliation. Now you know.
But comics today are different, no longer throwaway fodder for 10-year-olds; adults buy most comics these days.
And even legendary artist Joe Simon, now approaching 90, said he would be reluctant to draw the kinds of covers he did in the 1940s.
"After Sept. 11 I redrew the cover of Captain America #1 but put Osama Bin Laden in place of Hitler," he said. "But I just did it for myself, not for anyone else to see. War is too sensitive a topic for comics to deal with today, things are far more complex than they war in the days when Captain America could punch Hitler in the jaw."
Joe Simon has a lot to say about the war, comics and the people who made them in The Comic Book Makers, a comics history he co-wrote with his son, Jim, that is scheduled for release next month from Vanguard Press.
But for now, in this different world with this different war, the past is the only place superheroes will deal with world politics and conflicts.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Sangacomo:
<strong>But it's unlikely. After the tragedy of Sept. 11, a few superheroes hunted down generic terrorists, but no links were made to actual people or countries. For better or worse, no one wanted to take the risk of pointing a finger at a specific person, country, religion, or other motivating factor for the terrorist action. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Which, maybe in the case of Iraq it might be understandable. After all, there's still that one-in-ten-billion chance that Saddam might be innocent of all the charges leveled against him. But Osama Bin Laden? Guilty of all crimes by his own admissions! Had I been Bill Jemas, I would have had every hero in the MU descend on Tora Bora and assist US troops in wiping out OBL and his Taliban harem in a 4-issue miniseries, with profits going towards 911 relief efforts, and bound volumes of the series sent to the troops thanking them for their efforts.
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Sangacomo:
<strong>Of course, there was a story where Cap dressed as a woman to sneak into Berlin and Buck dressed as “her” grandson, and no one questioned that the symbol of America could pass as a woman…but…let’s not talk about that here. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Heh, keep in mind that one of the dangers of steroids is a loss of sexual drive. There's no telling just what other side effects the super-soldier formula had on poor Steve. Maybe that's what made the 50's Cap go nuts - his no longer worked and/or shriveled up!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Sangacomo:
<strong>In later years, DC writers would explain the lack of superhero intervention by revealing that Hitler possessed "the Spear of Destiny" a magical instrument, which would have put superheroes under his control if they got too close. Convenient. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Don't forget, Mike - Hirohito had the Holy Grail, which when he and Hitler said the same mystical enchantment at the same time, both Germany and Japan were rendered super-proof. Which begs the question of what Mussolini was given to use to keep Italy safe. The Sacred Shroud of Turin? The Bill for the Last Supper? The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joe Simon, creator of "Brother Power, the Geek", sez:
<strong>"After Sept. 11 I redrew the cover of Captain America #1 but put Osama Bin Laden in place of Hitler," he said. "But I just did it for myself, not for anyone else to see. War is too sensitive a topic for comics to deal with today, things are far more complex than they war in the days when Captain America could punch Hitler in the jaw." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Yep. Because most of us would love to have seen him have his balls kicked up between his shoulder blades, sodomized by a wild bull and a gorilla, tarred and feathered in the original method, drawn and quartered, pendalumed with rats trained not to eat rope, forced to make love to Rosie O'Donnell and Roseanne Barr, then smeared with hamburger and tossed in a locked room full of starving wolves.
Nope, Cap's too just-minded to have performed any one of those acts of vengeance, including the podial-enforced gonad relocation. Which is why we have Eric Cartman around to pick up the slack...
Redmond
04-12-2003, 03:21 PM
That was a great article.
rtype
04-12-2003, 03:46 PM
I really enjoyed this article. One other reason, I think, why we'd have a tough time utilizing real world war enemies and criminals as comic book villains is that the way in which villains in comics are portrayed has changed over the years.
In the 1940s, many comic villains were portrayed as bumbling idiots. Even the ones who weren't had some obvious weaknesses. This is great to fuel the imagination of a ten year old. Adults, however, demand more complex villains and in fact have a dark admiration for the the best villains.
The modern day version of Lex Luthor and Doctor Doom are almost regal in their status. Surely this is not how the patrotic American would like to see Osama or Saddam portrayed. We'd not like to think of those enemies as having logical motivations, well thought out strategies or human emotion. Yet if they were portrayed as the idiot villains of yesteryear, they would be wholely unbelievable to today's older audience.
That said, I'd still like to see some heroes kicking Bill Jemas' ass and few people would complain about portraying him as an idiot. :)
mr mainstream
04-12-2003, 04:16 PM
OM,
great post mate ! I agreed with all of it.
Pesonally I'd love to see the DC and Marvel heroes kick Saddams and Bins arses, and I'm sure a lot of comics readers would agree with me !
Once again, thinking of the rights of every two bit trumped up minority, has stopped the majority of us being able to do what we want.
put me down for a four issue mini-series in which Captain America and Captain Britain team up to smash old Bin Ladens teeth right back down his throat ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Raven Project /John Benton
04-12-2003, 04:39 PM
If memory serves, Marvel did touch on Desert Storm in a series of backup features from the 1992(?) X-Men related annuals. In that run, Freedom Force (the former Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, employed by the government) was sent into a Middle Eastern nation to rescuse a scientist. They were summarily torn apart by a group of local superhumans, including the Arabian Knight. The carnage was actually pretty brutal.
-J
theodoros
04-12-2003, 05:17 PM
I liked Bill Jemas' opinion. It was a great thought about not trying to take sides in a war like this year's "war".
And a great article too.
Me like it good. yes yes...
KingStalin
04-12-2003, 05:51 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Sangacomo:
[qb]But it's unlikely. After the tragedy of Sept. 11, a few superheroes hunted down generic terrorists, but no links were made to actual people or countries. For better or worse, no one wanted to take the risk of pointing a finger at a specific person, country, religion, or other motivating factor for the terrorist action. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Which, maybe in the case of Iraq it might be understandable. After all, there's still that one-in-ten-billion chance that Saddam might be innocent of all the charges leveled against him. But Osama Bin Laden? Guilty of all crimes by his own admissions! Had I been Bill Jemas, I would have had every hero in the MU descend on Tora Bora and assist US troops in wiping out OBL and his Taliban harem in a 4-issue miniseries, with profits going towards 911 relief efforts, and bound volumes of the series sent to the troops thanking them for their efforts.
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
[QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God Blkes yuou OM, glad to see I'm not the only one tired of this hippie crap in america.
jawaplumber
04-12-2003, 06:37 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
[QB][QUOTE]
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
[QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not until after Spider-Man steals his turban and webs his eyes and mouth shut, and gets off a few good quips like only Spidey can :)
By the way, I was afraid when I was going to look at this thread it would be filled with a bunch of anti-war rubbish. Glad to have folks like OM here around to lay it out like it is :)
Brian Wink
04-12-2003, 06:42 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by KingStalin:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
[qb] </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Sangacomo:
[qb]But it's unlikely. After the tragedy of Sept. 11, a few superheroes hunted down generic terrorists, but no links were made to actual people or countries. For better or worse, no one wanted to take the risk of pointing a finger at a specific person, country, religion, or other motivating factor for the terrorist action. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Which, maybe in the case of Iraq it might be understandable. After all, there's still that one-in-ten-billion chance that Saddam might be innocent of all the charges leveled against him. But Osama Bin Laden? Guilty of all crimes by his own admissions! Had I been Bill Jemas, I would have had every hero in the MU descend on Tora Bora and assist US troops in wiping out OBL and his Taliban harem in a 4-issue miniseries, with profits going towards 911 relief efforts, and bound volumes of the series sent to the troops thanking them for their efforts.
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
<strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God Blkes yuou OM, glad to see I'm not the only one tired of this hippie crap in america.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wouldn't mind seeing the Avengers hop into a time machine and head back to the 1980s to stop the Reagan Administration from spending our money to, you know, support Bin Laden and Hussein. We wouldn't have to worry about "this hippie crap" at all, then.
Cray_ws
04-12-2003, 07:10 PM
I would be disgusted if Osama Bin Laden was to be in a comic or any other fictionary media. The mere thought of giving him & the Taliban any credit by immortalizing him. Osama was a gangster in a poor country, not a dictating leader like Saddam was. But that doesn't mean I'm advocating Saddam Hussein.
The fact that theres so many historical comics about Hitler is all the more reason what helps give kkk clans a significance. A sense of validation, and thats sad. There's those flurry of sick people who buy artifacts that were owned by Hitler himself. Its no suprise to see kkk clans collect and endorse Hilter through fiction. Even if Captian America is beating the tar out of him.
I think that the minute comics become more prevalent of the current affairs of the world you run the risk of crossing the line of fiction and reality. Besides if you look at old war comics it all looks like propaganda, but at the time of publishing it was never intended to be so outright propaganda, but merely support of the nation in a time of war.
If there's gotta be war comics, I would like to see the works that are caution enough to not cross the line of singling out the cause of the war, whether it be one person (Hitler) or agenda.
Deinonychus
04-12-2003, 08:18 PM
Marvel did print War comics as recently as April of '91. Punisher 47 and 48, with covers depicting Frank beating up on some arabs with the title "Caught in a Desert Storm" and the other title "Next Stop Baghdad". Although the second title proved a bit misleading. The story centered around The Punisher trying to sabatoge a giant artillery piece the "Brattle Gun" being used by the leader of a middle eastern country who is a dead ringer for Saddam in appearance and behavior. Also notwithstanding there WAS a supergun being built for Iraq in the early 90's.
So really, all it seems to me is that Marvel feels that now more people would be turned off by seeing a group we are at war with being attacked by its characters and less offended at seeing random thugs and gangsters being maimed and murdered every month in titles such as the current Punisher series. Hey go figure. Comics are Comics. If you get offended easy or have to read a political agenda into everything, even Comics, then I truly do feel sorry for you. It must make life so unfun.
gOgIver
04-12-2003, 09:21 PM
Is there a link for the Look Magazine two-page spread “How Would Superman End World War II?” ?
Beyerstein
04-12-2003, 09:38 PM
hey, it would be cool if Duke and Snake-Eyes went after ossama
jawaplumber
04-12-2003, 10:06 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Brian Wink:
<strong>[QUOTE]I wouldn't mind seeing the Avengers hop into a time machine and head back to the 1980s to stop the Reagan Administration from spending our money to, you know, support Bin Laden and Hussein. We wouldn't have to worry about "this hippie crap" at all, then.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope...apparently we still do.
BLACKBRIAR
04-12-2003, 11:05 PM
Sangiacomo: Your column achieved a new low a few weeks ago when you sheepishly admitted that your anxiety over the current world situation made you retreat into your childhood hobby and give all comics that week positive reviews. (YIKES, talk about a personal geek nadir.)
I am glad you turned those embarassing actions into a positive, informative and enjoyable column.
Great work.
BLACKBRIAR
04-12-2003, 11:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>...Which, maybe in the case of Iraq it might be understandable. After all, there's still that one-in-ten-billion chance that Saddam might be innocent of all the charges leveled against him. But Osama Bin Laden? Guilty of all crimes by his own admissions! Had I been Bill Jemas, I would have had every hero in the MU descend on Tora Bora and assist US troops in wiping out OBL and his Taliban harem in a 4-issue miniseries, with profits going towards 911 relief efforts, and bound volumes of the series sent to the troops thanking them for their efforts.
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A comic depicting Wolverine vs Osama WOULD be offensive OMie.
Osama killed REAL people. Wolverine at best is an adolescent power fantasty enjoyed primarily by thrity year olds who can't let go of the nostalgia from their teen years.
REAL people will die in any effort to bring Osama to justice.
We are a more sophistocated world society now OMie. And ANY death should not be trivialized by equating it with adolescant power fantasies.
BLACKBRIAR
04-12-2003, 11:12 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Beyerstein:
<strong>hey, it would be cool if Duke and Snake-Eyes went after ossama</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No no no, GI JOE has to go after Saddam--cuz we all know he is WAAAAY more EVIL. Haven't you morons been listening to your own government? Uh-oh, I will have to report you.
mike sangiacomo
04-13-2003, 12:07 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
[QB]Sangiacomo: Your column achieved a new low a few weeks ago when you sheepishly admitted that your anxiety over the current world situation made you retreat into your childhood hobby and give all comics that week positive reviews. (YIKES, talk about a personal geek nadir.)"
SANGIACOMO HERE;
You're talking to someone who was actually in Baghdad and got out a few weeks before the shelling started. I was there as a reporter. Last week just seemed like an appropriate time to look at some of the good comics out there, since everything else looked pretty crappy. I'd hardly call it a retreat into a childhood hobby. Geez.
mike sangiacomo
04-13-2003, 12:10 AM
Sangiacomo here.
Just to be clear, I was in Baghdad in December, 1990, the last war, not the current one.
jawaplumber
04-13-2003, 12:53 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
[QB]Sangiacomo: Your column achieved a new low a few weeks ago when you sheepishly admitted that your anxiety over the current world situation made you retreat into your childhood hobby and give all comics that week positive reviews. (YIKES, talk about a personal geek nadir.)"
SANGIACOMO HERE;
You're talking to someone who was actually in Baghdad and got out a few weeks before the shelling started. I was there as a reporter. Last week just seemed like an appropriate time to look at some of the good comics out there, since everything else looked pretty crappy. I'd hardly call it a retreat into a childhood hobby. Geez.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mike, brother, you owe NO ONE an explanation. You did a great job on the column, sorry I didn't say so earlier.
arthur pendragon
04-13-2003, 01:51 AM
Someone(guess who?) beat you to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=00074 6" target="_blank">http://www.newsarama.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=00074 6</a>
<a href="http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007761" target="_blank">http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007761</a>
<a href="http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/files/Forum94/HTML/000014.html" target="_blank">http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/files/Forum94/HTML/000014.html</a>
Rakshasa
04-13-2003, 02:47 AM
Hey, I´m all for a special edition of our favorite heroes hunting down Osama and giving him the more than fair punishment for his hideous crimes.
As long as, in the very next month, we get a second issue with Kissinger´s murderous @$$ getting the pounding it deserved for so long.
Beyerstein
04-13-2003, 04:16 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
A comic depicting Wolverine vs Osama WOULD be offensive OMie.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think it would be offensive. Comic books are supposed to be the shameless medium where things like that happen
BLACKBRIAR
04-13-2003, 04:33 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>SANGIACOMO HERE;
You're talking to someone who was actually in Baghdad and got out a few weeks before the shelling started. I was there as a reporter. Last week just seemed like an appropriate time to look at some of the good comics out there, since everything else looked pretty crappy. I'd hardly call it a retreat into a childhood hobby. Geez.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Buddy, you need to re-read that column. You were in full retreat.
And PS--being in Baghdad more than ten years ago means nothing in the current political situation. Mentioning it has no real meaning to the discussion.
That's like me saying, "Shut up! I walked by the towers once!"
And by the way, my previous post was actually complimenting the current column.
BLACKBRIAR
04-13-2003, 04:38 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Beyerstein:
<strong>I don't think it would be offensive. Comic books are supposed to be the shameless medium where things like that happen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You need to come out of the basement more. The air down there is getting pretty thin.
Osama killed real people dude NOT imaginary comic book people. Having a guy in skin tight clothes pummel Osama for entertainment is trivializing the fact that a real human being died.
rtype
04-13-2003, 05:37 AM
Once again I am amazed that comics are held by its audience to a higher moral standard than any other mediums. Were someone to write a novel, film, play or comic strip about the same topics, no one would expect the author to actually abide by such requests.
It is a strange juxtaposition (so to speak) that we claim comic books have grown up and yet we still ask their creators and publishers to walk on eggshells around the delicate sensibilities of its readers. Heros can't kill, sidekicks can't be gay and no one can beat up Bin Laden.
I long for a day in which comic books are seen only as a medium to tell any genre of story any way the author chooses without being required to follow a book of rules legislated by an overly enthusiastic tiny portion of the general population. I fear I will not live to see that day come to pass.
BoyWonder
04-13-2003, 10:11 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it is perfectly ok as long as we get a comic where the people who originally funded Bin Laden get "ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine". So Rumsfeld, Chenney and Bush can get beaten senseless by the Marvel superheroes. I mean who apart from a war mongering, fascistic, bigoted, hypocritical pervert would disagree?
Promethea
04-13-2003, 11:39 AM
I really loved this article. Showed the difference between then and now.
Now to the replies:
This is the sane arrogance BS that has 90% of the world angry at us. They wanted Saddam out, just not have America doing it. Because we come off as bullies who think our might makes us right and damn anyone who thinks otherwise.
And look at the dipictions you want potrayed. 'Pull down his turban', 'Yank his beard', 'Kick him in the Arabs!' Is this how you think of all Middle Eastern Men? Simply fanactics of thier religion? I could say that all Southern Men are Bapists and in the KKK. But that isn't right though many in my community believe so. I have a co-worker who is Lebanese, a Christian by birth, but he is still having problems getting his Green Card, even though he and his brother help get our Marines to hospitals when their compound was under attack in Beriut. Does he fall under your sterotype?
And as one of those 'two-bit' minorites, remember YOU WHITE PEOPLE WILL BE THE MINORITY IN AMERICA IN LESS THAN 50 YEARS! And no, we don't forget past treatment or did you think Trent Lott was the exception to the Rule?
DrDoom
04-13-2003, 12:43 PM
If Osama Bin laden would appear in a comic then they will possible have to adjust him a bit.
A patch over one eye ? One leg in a peg? One arm a hook and a Pirate head?
He I invented John Long Silver :)
little kon-el
04-13-2003, 02:28 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beyerstein:
[qb]
Osama killed real people dude NOT imaginary comic book people. Having a guy in skin tight clothes pummel Osama for entertainment is trivializing the fact that a real human being died.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hitler killed people too, so did tojo...and heck, so did a major famine in africa. but captain america, superman, and reed richards intervened on all those events.
i think the aversion to portraying superman kick osama bin lauden's ass just shows how far our medium has retreated. it goes more towards not placing our characters within a time restraint than any political or social means. the last time we put a character within a time period, nixon shot himself and captain america became nomad.
our characters can no longer comment on the real world, or have real world issues affect them due to commercial and copyright restraints. it's a shame really. superhero comics could do more than just be a male power fantasy...it can actually be a genre for talking about issues and ideas.
the whole superhero genre died when they copyrighted superman as both a logo and as a coporate entity long ago.
little kon-el
PerfectBrak
04-13-2003, 03:19 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Promethea:
<strong>And as one of those 'two-bit' minorites, remember YOU WHITE PEOPLE WILL BE THE MINORITY IN AMERICA IN LESS THAN 50 YEARS! And no, we don't forget past treatment or did you think Trent Lott was the exception to the Rule?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Racist much? Damn you're quite a hypocrite. Of course all of us crackers hate minorities :rolleyes: .
[NathaN]
04-13-2003, 03:23 PM
Personally, I think it's more a matter of believability. Those original wartime stories are oftentimes simplistic, propagandistic and racist. Yes, the Nazi-regime and Hirohito's regime were pretty much evil, but that does not mean the Germans or Japanese are evil. Consequently, ridiculing them, stereotyping them negates any attempt at trying to tell a meaningful story. A story about a German soldier in World War 2, struggling with his duty to his country and his aversion for its regime will make for a far better story, not to mention a far more powerful message than Captain America punching Hitler in the face.
I think it is this subtlety that shows not retreat for comics, but progress.
Super heroes in real life stuations tend to trivialise those situations, simply because those situations are far too easy to resolve for those heroes. Superman versus the Iraqi forces would be over in 5 minutes if he put his mind to it. Unless of course Saddam has developed kryptonite bullets. But that story would completely ignore the plight of the Iragi people whom George Bush is so nobly trying to liberate.
Straczynski's Spider-Man 9-11 story didn't deal with a terrorist plot, but with the aftermath of the attack. It went beyond the simple conflict of "us" versus "them". Those are the kinds of real life stories worth telling. Not Wolverine gutting Osama (which, quite frankly is the most immature suggestion I can think of; essentially symbolising a cry out for revenge, which always leads to vendetta and eternal conflict). And isn't Maus a far superior story than the average Cap beats on Nazi's story?
It all boils down to having a narrative medium telling the best stories it can. Not puerile revenge-driven fantasy scenario's devoid of any meaningful message. Comics, I feel, have grown beyond that...
KingStalin
04-13-2003, 03:35 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Brian Wink:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by KingStalin:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
[qb] </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Sangacomo:
[qb]But it's unlikely. After the tragedy of Sept. 11, a few superheroes hunted down generic terrorists, but no links were made to actual people or countries. For better or worse, no one wanted to take the risk of pointing a finger at a specific person, country, religion, or other motivating factor for the terrorist action. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Which, maybe in the case of Iraq it might be understandable. After all, there's still that one-in-ten-billion chance that Saddam might be innocent of all the charges leveled against him. But Osama Bin Laden? Guilty of all crimes by his own admissions! Had I been Bill Jemas, I would have had every hero in the MU descend on Tora Bora and assist US troops in wiping out OBL and his Taliban harem in a 4-issue miniseries, with profits going towards 911 relief efforts, and bound volumes of the series sent to the troops thanking them for their efforts.
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
<strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God Blkes yuou OM, glad to see I'm not the only one tired of this hippie crap in america.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wouldn't mind seeing the Avengers hop into a time machine and head back to the 1980s to stop the Reagan Administration from spending our money to, you know, support Bin Laden and Hussein. We wouldn't have to worry about "this hippie crap" at all, then.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you never know we could all be communist then seeing how these terrorist were trained to fight russia.ungratefull bastards then turn on us. hippies will unfortuanety all be here.
KingStalin
04-13-2003, 03:37 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Beyerstein:
<strong>hey, it would be cool if Duke and Snake-Eyes went after ossama</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No no no, GI JOE has to go after Saddam--cuz we all know he is WAAAAY more EVIL. Haven't you morons been listening to your own government? Uh-oh, I will have to report you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahh one of you people. cry the big tear my friend.
Mister Goodman
04-13-2003, 04:56 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MattBrady:
<strong><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/sangiacomo/master2.jpg" width="200" height="271" border="0" hspace="2" align="right">by Mike Sangiacomo
Heck, even Look Magazine got in on the game, commissioning a two-page spread entitled, “How Would Superman End World War II?” wherein Superman bashed tanks, swatted Nazi planes out of the sky, plucked Hitler out of his retreat, grabbed Stalin off of a Moscow balcony, and took them to Geneva, where the League of Nations found them guilty for unprovoked aggression against defenseless countries.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think a sequel to that would make a pretty cool Elseworlds book. :-)
gOgIver
04-13-2003, 06:31 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
Wolverine at best is an adolescent power fantasty enjoyed primarily by thrity year olds who can't let go of the nostalgia from their teen years.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Opinion or fact? :confused:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mike sangiacomo:
<strong>You're talking to someone who was actually in Baghdad and got out a few weeks before the shelling started. I was there as a reporter. Last week just seemed like an appropriate time to look at some of the good comics out there, since everything else looked pretty crappy. I'd hardly call it a retreat into a childhood hobby. Geez.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Don't sweat it, Mike. Blackie's in his Malcolm X mode today. Either that, or he just washed his Afro and can't do a thing with it. Either way, I still love the goober because he makes me laugh my ass off most of the time.
Hey Blackie, if I find a picture of George Jefferson, will you add it to your profile as your pic? I'll put one up of Archie Bunker for mine if you wish :-) :-)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mah homey, BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>Having a guy in skin tight clothes pummel Osama for entertainment is trivializing the fact that a real human being died.</strong>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Horse-hockey. There's nothing trivializing about a fictional depiction of an utter scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting torn to bits as painfully as possible for the crimes he's responsible for. Try selling your bill of goods there to the survivors and victims of 9/11, Blackie. With very few exceptions - there's at least one blind pacifist in every woodpile - they'd all tell you to get stuffed and that someone should print a comic where OBL gets what he deserves.
...And besides, if the old bastard died at Tora Bora and we never find his rotting corpse, having the Hulk rape the shit out of him before ripping him apart one limb at a time would give us some necessary spleen venting. Like it or not, the human psyche needs to be convinced that justice has, in some way, shape or form, has been done, and done painfully.
And if that weren't the case, the special issue of The Onion dealing with 9/11 wouldn't have been as well-received as it was. The page describing what happened to the confused 9/11 hijackers when they got to Hell is a must-read...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rtype:
<strong>Once again I am amazed that comics are held by its audience to a higher moral standard than any other mediums. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...You can thank Dr. Wertham for that. Ever since his Seduction of the Innocent(*) scam he pulled on a Cold War Paranoic America in the 50's, comics have been under a finer and tighter level of scrutiny and self-policing than any other form of print media. Ergo, because they've been "busted" before, comic publishers are expected to conduct themselves on a higher moral plateau than book publishers.
(*) Which I've always subtitled Seduction of the Chronic Whiners, natch.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by little kon-el:
<strong>i think the aversion to portraying superman kick osama bin lauden's ass just shows how far our medium has retreated. it goes more towards not placing our characters within a time restraint than any political or social means. the last time we put a character within a time period, nixon shot himself and captain america became nomad. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Well put, Kon, and to be honest it's probably a good excuse for the Big Two as well. On the other hand, I would have been more impressed if it had wound up being a clone of FDR who blew himself away instead of "Nixon". That would have been enough to have shaken Cap's resolve.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mister Goodman:
<strong>I think a sequel to [the S&S "Superman stops WWII" 2-pager] would make a pretty cool Elseworlds book. :-)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...Something like that's already sort of been done. Byrne's OMAC prestige-format miniseries had OMAC simply marching into Nazi Germany and twisting Adolf's head around 180 degrees, stopping WWII in its tracks. The world became a very different place - a technological paradise in which quite a bit of the human spirit had been diminished, if not extinguished. As to what would happen if Superman had done this...Hmmm, anyone got a contact method for Roy Thomas besides "duh, just write a letter to DC"? That trick never works.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Cray_ws:
<strong>I would be disgusted if Osama Bin Laden was to be in a comic or any other fictionary media. The mere thought of giving him & the Taliban any credit by immortalizing him. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...That arguement holds about as much water as a sieve, or about as much chance as Bart Sibrel had of avoiding getting punched by Buzz Aldrin. You can't just ignore the heinous and hideous actions of the worst of humanity. You have to expose it, ridcule it, and show future generations not only that this person was a very evil man, but that everyone knew he was a very evil man and hated him for it, and that above all else he was <u>wrong</u>.
...A little thought experiment, then: suppose after WWII, it was decreed that everything about Hitler, other than the fact that he led Germany to war and ruin, was expunged from historical record. All of the Third Reich distilled down to "he was a bad man who got a lot of people killed by making war on them, and we kicked his butt so bad that he killed himself. The End." Now, answer this question: if we had no record of the evils that he did, where would the lesson come from that you don't toss people in death camps just because their culture, customs and even religion are different from yours?
...Immortalizing evil? Fuck yes you immortalize it. You immortalize it in ridicule, shame, defeat, desecration, hatred, disgust and denoument, all as a lesson to future generations that the evil personified is detrimental to society as a whole, and following in the footsteps of that personification is not a smart thing to do. We owe that to our descendents, and those who can't grasp that concept are sorely misguided and need to drop their ostrich mentalities. In this day and age, ignoring the idiots and whackos is about a valid an option as standing in front of an approaching train and expecting it to not run over you if you ignore it.
Charles RB
04-13-2003, 07:15 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mr mainstream:
<strong>
Pesonally I'd love to see the DC and Marvel heroes kick Saddams and Bins arses, and I'm sure a lot of comics readers would agree with me !</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope, because at the same time we're reading that we'd see in the news all the coalition forces killed/injured in Iraq, all the civilians killed by us going after both men, the widespread looting in Iraq, the fact that Afghanistan is still a festering craphole mostly ruled by warlords with most Afghans still living under oppression and the fact that Bin Laden is still out there & we'll likely see more terror attacks in the future. So this would show up the hypothetical mini as the juvenile fantasy shite it is.
I don't want to see Wolverine kill Osama in a comic. I'd rather see a comic about a regular Iraq in Bahgdad set at various time periods. One would be shite, the other would have the potential to be dramatic, horrific and sheer brilliance. No contest.
DrDoom
04-13-2003, 07:28 PM
Nowadays it would be Nick Fury going after Osama and Saddam instead Captain America. Why? I don't know but it feels better to me.
BLACKBRIAR
04-13-2003, 09:40 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BoyWonder:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>
I mean, seriously, who besides some treehugging peacenik hippie commie pervert would find disgust at a scumbag like Osama Bin Laden getting ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it is perfectly ok as long as we get a comic where the people who originally funded Bin Laden get "ripped in two by the Hulk, or eviscerated by Wolverine". So Rumsfeld, Chenney and Bush can get beaten senseless by the Marvel superheroes. I mean who apart from a war mongering, fascistic, bigoted, hypocritical pervert would disagree?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was a really nice post. It took the comic geeks' expectations and spun it to the truth (which was handily ignored by the geeks of course).
Great work.
little kon-el
04-14-2003, 12:00 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by [NathaN]:
<strong>Personally, I think it's more a matter of believability. Those original wartime stories are oftentimes simplistic, propagandistic and racist. Yes, the Nazi-regime and Hirohito's regime were pretty much evil, but that does not mean the Germans or Japanese are evil. Consequently, ridiculing them, stereotyping them negates any attempt at trying to tell a meaningful story. A story about a German soldier in World War 2, struggling with his duty to his country and his aversion for its regime will make for a far better story, not to mention a far more powerful message than Captain America punching Hitler in the face.
I think it is this subtlety that shows not retreat for comics, but progress.
Super heroes in real life stuations tend to trivialise those situations, simply because those situations are far too easy to resolve for those heroes. Superman versus the Iraqi forces would be over in 5 minutes if he put his mind to it. Unless of course Saddam has developed kryptonite bullets. But that story would completely ignore the plight of the Iragi people whom George Bush is so nobly trying to liberate.
Straczynski's Spider-Man 9-11 story didn't deal with a terrorist plot, but with the aftermath of the attack. It went beyond the simple conflict of "us" versus "them". Those are the kinds of real life stories worth telling. Not Wolverine gutting Osama (which, quite frankly is the most immature suggestion I can think of; essentially symbolising a cry out for revenge, which always leads to vendetta and eternal conflict). And isn't Maus a far superior story than the average Cap beats on Nazi's story?
It all boils down to having a narrative medium telling the best stories it can. Not puerile revenge-driven fantasy scenario's devoid of any meaningful message. Comics, I feel, have grown beyond that...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">oh, i'm not saying that we should go back to the propaganda of WW2. what i would like for us to do is not shy away from the politics of the world around us, even if it is superhero comics.
i remember when we went to war with Iraq originally. in the x-men comics, it was mentioned that superhuman troops were held back because of the fear of metahuman biological weapons. later, you had freedom force fly into the ruins of bagdad, on a secret mission only to totally screw it up (and kill the arabian knight in the process).
i liked the fact that these comics were timely. i like when comics have resonance somewhere outside of it's own fictionalized world. it shows that superhero comics have the ability to reach outside of itself and find inspiration from something other than 30 year old kirby issues.
little kon-el
Academic
04-14-2003, 11:39 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>[QUOTE]...You can thank Dr. Wertham for that. Ever since his Seduction of the Innocent(*) scam he pulled on a Cold War Paranoic America in the 50's, comics have been under a finer and tighter level of scrutiny and self-policing than any other form of print media.
(*) Which I've always subtitled Seduction of the Chronic Whiners, natch.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Have you actually read Seduction of the Innocent?
I have.
I've also read contemporary texts on similar subjects like the portrayal of crime, anti-communist propaganda, and the like. Plus, I've done a lot of research into the Hayes Code and Hollywood's response.
Wertham was TAME compared to the great majority of similar texts. And, he was also right: the promotion of crime was becoming a problem in American entertainment (criminals being the star and not the authorities), plus portrayals of communists in the dehumanizing way of the Axis in the forties was not beneficial to kids in the time.
Personally, I think Wertham would have been considered an accurate critic of comics were it not for the fact that too many people focused on those few paragraphs regarding Batman, Robin, and the possibility of homosexuality (which, in looking at some of those comics, was an obvious reading).
Academic
04-14-2003, 12:39 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Promethea:
<strong>I really loved this article. Showed the difference between then and now.
Now to the replies:
This is the sane arrogance BS that has 90% of the world angry at us. They wanted Saddam out, just not have America doing it. Because we come off as bullies who think our might makes us right and damn anyone who thinks otherwise.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it's that stance -- the with us or against us dichotomy -- which is the real problem.
Case in point: Canada.
Anyone who has ever visited Canada will understand that this is a country that believes heavily in diplomacy, peace (a Canadian prime minister came up with the concept of the International Peace Keeping Force), human rights (except in parts of Quebec <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) and the United Nations.
But Canada's refusal to send its exhausted troops into Iraq for a war that is not sanctioned by the United Nations because of a lack of evidence is being viewed as "anti-American."
Canada's choice to hand prisoners over to the world court and not the United States has resulted in Bush cancelling his one official visit to this country -- or at least postponing it until "an America-friendly" government comes in to replace the present one.
Canada doesn't hate the US, nor is positioning itself as "an enemy of America" despite what some members of Congress may suggest.
If Marvel and DC refuse to represent this war in its comics, it's choosing to recognize this war is not the type of war that World War II was.
This "Axis of Evil" isn't as clearly evil as it was in the forties -- has Afghanistan or Iraq or any of the other countries actually declared war officially against America?
Now, if you were to reflect the thirties' and fifties' anti-spy stories as different from the anti-Taliban actions of today, that would be a different matter entirely. Personally, I could see a comic character like Nick Fury coming across a terrorist cell and working backwards to its evil genius... there were a lot of evil geniuses in the thirties, so why not some in the present decade? :D
DocSamson27572
04-14-2003, 08:33 PM
Sounds like there are two types of requests here. The Hulk or Wolvie ripping it up Osama or Saddam sounds like a parody that might work in the pages of Mad magazine. And I think it would work because it would purely be for humour and requires no depth. It sounds like a one page poster spread or something similar.
As for the comics, I don't think you could write a story, with a level of depth needed, to portray Osama or Saddam. To depict a villain as less than two-dimensional you need to get in their head and see what makes them tick. Otherwise both individuals would be a poor parody. Also the fact that no one knows what has happened to either of them, or where they are makes it difficult to create a story. Hitler was easy cause he's dead, so stories can be set in the past, before his demise. The Invaders is a great example. However the Invaders chucked in Master Man, Warrior Woman, Baron Blood, and other villains to make it comic-booky. Are we going to do the same with Osama or Saddam? Have some suped-up version of the Republic Guard, such as the Supreme Soviets?
I'd prefer to see stories based around why heroes DIDN'T join the war. Maybe Superman didn't because it's "humanity's fight" such as the anti-nuclear war stance taken in Superman 4. What stance would the Ultimates have taken? What about Captain America? What about Thor? Oddly enough 9/11 was raised in the pages of Spider-man and Captain America, but no further mention. It would be interesting to have a further look into the issue.
little kon-el
04-15-2003, 02:08 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Academic:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OM:
<strong>[QUOTE]...You can thank Dr. Wertham for that. Ever since his Seduction of the Innocent(*) scam he pulled on a Cold War Paranoic America in the 50's, comics have been under a finer and tighter level of scrutiny and self-policing than any other form of print media.
(*) Which I've always subtitled Seduction of the Chronic Whiners, natch.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Have you actually read Seduction of the Innocent?
I have.
I've also read contemporary texts on similar subjects like the portrayal of crime, anti-communist propaganda, and the like. Plus, I've done a lot of research into the Hayes Code and Hollywood's response.
Wertham was TAME compared to the great majority of similar texts. And, he was also right: the promotion of crime was becoming a problem in American entertainment (criminals being the star and not the authorities), plus portrayals of communists in the dehumanizing way of the Axis in the forties was not beneficial to kids in the time.
Personally, I think Wertham would have been considered an accurate critic of comics were it not for the fact that too many people focused on those few paragraphs regarding Batman, Robin, and the possibility of homosexuality (which, in looking at some of those comics, was an obvious reading).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">what wertham has been dragged over the coals about isn't his stance on comics, in my book, but his shoddy research. he makes some horrible leaps between anedotal information about comics being in the hands of juvenile delinquents and comics being the cause of juvenile delinquency. that's the problem i have with his research and his method.
in the end, he was a very caring man that wanted to help the kids under his charge so much so that he used shoddy research to do it. he eventually did make up for it, before his death, by getting into fandom and writing the first academic book on fandom (which, again, contained shoddy research of different comic book fanzines).
nice man, good intentions...but shoddy research.
little kon-el
hondo
04-25-2003, 04:46 PM
I am completely amazed that Marvel has NOT done some kind of a "Kick Saddam's Ass" special one-shot or series. A parody or spoof of some sort if nothing else.
Of course there are those that would be offended. There are also those that would use it as a cathartic release to strike back on the printed page at a character or person that is highly unliked or even hated by a huge number of people.
Would I be opposed to it ? No. Is everyone going to be happy ? No. But don't let those people stop the rest of us who would enjoy a book like that.
BTW, I consider myself a liberal and am a proud Democrat but I do support the War and yes I would probably buy a book to this effect. It truly baffles me that not even a small publisher has done this yet.
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