FLASHING BACK & FORWARD: WAID ON LEAVING FLASH, THE B&B TO COME, AND BOOM! [Archive]

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MattBrady

01-04-2008, 08:37 AM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Waid/Flash236.jpg" align="right">by Vaneta Rogers

For Mark Waid, it's as much a story of new beginnings as it is a tale of an ending.

While Newsarama contacted Waid about the news that issue #236 will be his last as writer of The Flash, Waid also talked to us about the opportunities he's finding as the new editor-in-chief for Boom! Studios, a position announced last year (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=123512) in San Diego. With the success of his three-issue Potter's Field mini-series from Boom!, Waid told us he's hoping to do more of that series, as well as pursuing other opportunities, including the company's latest movie property, The Godfather.

Waid was part of a surprise Flash relaunch in July with artist Daniel Acuna, after the 14-issue run of Flash: The Fastest Man Alive ended abruptly in June upon the death of then-Flash Bart Allen and the return of former-Flash Wally West to the DCU. The change was something DC had apparently been planning secretly for awhile, even faking solicitations and covers to hide the title change. Since the relaunch, the series has focused on Wally and his family, including two super-powered and quickly aging twin children named Jai and Iris.

After this month's issue #236 by Waid, the Flash series will have a fill-in issue written by Keith Champagne (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141617) in February, then will be taken over with Issue #238 in March by writer Tom Peyer (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141769), whom DC has named regular series writer, along with current artist Freddie Williams II.

But fans of Waid's superhero work shouldn't be too discouraged by his departure from Flash and his foray into creator-owned titles. Waid said he is still working on The Brave and the Bold, the ongoing DC Comics series he's been writing for the last year with George Perez on art. Just how long? And why choose to stay on that series, but leave The Flash? We found out...

Newsarama: So it's time to leave The Flash behind?

Mark Waid: Yeah. Between trying to keep Brave and the Bold moving and all the new duties at Boom!, something had to give.

I'm going to miss working with Freddie, whose enthusiasm was never diminished no matter how many panels I crammed onto a page. Writer-wise, the book's in terrific hands with Tom Peyer, about whom Grant Morrison has said to me more than once, "It's a tragedy he's not writing more DC comics." Tom's probably the best writer out there that no one knows about and hopefully this'll make him the household name he ought to be.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Waid/Flash235.jpg" align="left">NRAMA: We talked to him yesterday, and he seemed pretty enthusiastic about the title. But just to clarify, you made the decision to leave because of time constraints?

MW: Yeah. Of course, it would have been a harder decision to make had the general reaction to my return to Flash been a little more positive. [laughs]

NRAMA: That made it easier to choose what had to give, huh?

MW: I don't know. You know, I just think, in retrospect, the stars were not in alignment in a lot of ways. I kind of knew we were in trouble right off the bat when I so loved Daniel Acuna's artwork. I [i]so[/i] loved it. And I was [i]so[/i] unprepared for the insane volume of hatred from the online community about how much they just despised his work on the title. I knew at that point, I thought, "Oh god, we're in trouble. Once more, the online community has me questioning what I [i]thought[/i] was good." Which I shouldn't let happen, but it's hard not to do when the volume is that loud.

And at this moment in time, I just ... in terms of superhero work, I feel frozen. I kind of... I feel like I'm momentarily out of step with what fandom wants because I don't get it. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change [i]good[/i]... or growth and change [i]bad[/i]?

NRAMA: When you went into this, did you feel like growth and change were good for this title? Because I remember hearing you in a panel at a convention defending the idea of comics characters [i]not[/i] aging.

MW: I [i]still[/i] defend that. I still defend that no one wants to see an 18-year-old Bart Simpson. But at the same time, I also believe very strongly in playing the cards that you're dealt. And Wally had two infant children and a wife.

And you know, I thought Wally was an exception to this because Wally was the one character in all of comics that we've been able to watch grow up with some consistency, without any sort of weird continuity blips or reboots of any sizeable nature. And the whole Flash line has been about legacy, about passing the identity along from Jay Garrick to Barry to Wally. So to me, the book is about legacy and is about heritage and family. I felt like that's what the comic has always been about.

So given that when I was approached, I had a wife and two infant children to deal with, it only made sense to me to [i]not[/i] drop a safe on them immediately, so that's why I kind of took the gig. I was terrified that if I didn't step in to protect Wally and his family, the next edict would be to [laughs], you know, have Dr. Light rape the children and beat Linda to death or something, and it would be the next Dark Flash. And no one wants that.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Flash233.jpg" align="right">NRAMA: But isn't there a lot of good in what you accomplished on the title, establishing this new status for Jai and Iris and the Flash?

MW: I would think so. I would hope so. And I think I'll feel that way once I get some distance from it. And once people stop hurling tomatoes at me when I walk down the street. [laughs]

No, I'm not upset or bickering. I really don't want to come across as bitter. I hope people know, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm just genuinely confused. I'm not trying to say that sardonically or snipe-ishly. I really am confused by this.

NRAMA: I remember, when we first talked about you taking this title, I asked more than once about you "going back" to the Flash, and you really avoided talking about that. You kept emphasizing that you were trying to do something new and different and [i]not[/i] "go back."

MW: Right. I honestly wanted it to be something new. I can't really imagine why people would want me to do the same thing I did years ago when there are already 100 issues of that printed for them to choose from. And again, I'm trying to say this honestly, without being bitter or sarcastic about this or anything. In the market, at this moment, judging by what's successful at both Marvel and DC, it just seems like the market is for stuff that is familiar. That hasn't always been the case, and that probably won't always be the case, but at this moment, it feels very strongly that what everyone wants is a sense of familiarity. Does that make any sense?

NRAMA: It does. But the response to that would be, OK, something new and different might not sell well this time. But so what? Some of what you try does sell well. You just came off 52!

MW: [laughs] I know. I know. And it's not so much that I care about how well the book sells. It's really more important that I feel good about having my name on it.

NRAMA: Exactly. So...

MW: Well, at the same time it's a little dispiriting, because we're not writing in a complete vacuum.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Flash231.jpg" align="left">NRAMA: That's understandable.

MW: And don't get me wrong -- there are hundreds of really good, vibrant, exciting and innovative comics being done right now. I'm just not sure they're being done in the superhero field as much. There are still innovative superhero comics out there. But that which seems to be the most widely received in superhero comics right now is not necessarily the most innovative stuff. And that's one of the reasons why Boom! Studios was very attractive to me, because that's a safer harbor for me right now. It feels like there's a lot more latitude to be able to do things. And if I don't feel like I'm clicking with the superhero market right this second, I can either whine and bitch about it or I can go create comics in some other genre for a little while. I'd rather do that.

NRAMA: OK, we'll get to your work at Boom! in a minute. But just to confirm while we're on the subject of superhero comics, you're leaving The Flash, but you're staying with Brave and the Bold, correct? Or are you only on it for 12 issues?

MW: Actually, I'm going to stick around awhile longer than that. I'll do it as long as it's fun.

NRAMA: As long as it's fun?

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Waid/B_B09.jpg" align="right">MW: As long as it's fun. The moment it needs to be in service to nine other crossovers or we're not telling complete stories; I'm going to be banging my head against the pavement. But for the time being, they seem to be content with just letting us go off in our own direction.

NRAMA: Your artist on the March and April issues of Brave and the Bold is going to be Jerry Ordway?

MW: Yes. Apparently George had to move on to another project that he's doing at DC, which broke his and my heart, because we were both looking forward to having a 12-issue run. But Jerry was the first guy I asked for to fill those shoes. Jerry is a phenomenal talent and that he's not doing a monthly book at DC is a crime. And George and I both agree that we couldn't have found a better guy to do the last two chapters.

NRAMA: And this is a two-issue story, right?

MW: Yeah, it's a two-issue stint. Issue #7-#12 all ties together. So while they've been pretty much stand-alone stories, they're also sort of contributing toward a larger arc.

NRAMA: Similar to the first six.

MW: Yeah. But you could say that the story in issues #11 and #12 is our first real two-parter with a genuine unresolved cliffhanger in #11 that pays off in #12.

NRAMA: Anything you want to tell people about the issues coming up in Brave and the Bold?

MW: Issue #11 is Superman and Ultraman and the Crime Syndicate, but it's also Challengers of the Unknown and Metamorpho, and it's also like six other guys, including the Earth-3 Mr. Mxyzptlk, who is becoming my new favorite character.

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Waid/B_B11.jpg" align="left">And Issue #12 is like "Brave and the Bold Presents the DC Universe." It's a big slam-bang finale that guest stars over a dozen of the characters that we've either seen before in the run or some of them that we've not seen yet.

NRAMA: So there's hope for those of us that haven't seen our favorite obscure character show up yet.

MW: Maybe. It's a tough balancing act, that book, because you want to make sure that there are marquee characters. Because, again, as I keep insisting, as much as I would love to buy an issue of Brave and the Bold with Adam Strange and the Metal Men, no one else wants to. So you have to have your marquee characters up there, but at the same time, the fun of it is trying to find ways to co-star or guest star the odder characters that can't necessarily carry their own stories but should be in the book anyway.

NRAMA: OK, let's talk about Boom! now. For Joe Newsarama-reader, explain exactly what it is you do as E-I-C for Boom!

MW: Wow...

NRAMA: I know. I'm sure there's a lot in there...

MW: There is a lot in there.

NRAMA: Just an overview?

MW: Boom is essentially, at this point, as a far as the publishing end of it -- and the publishing end is just part of the bigger picture as is the film producers and media developers or whatever -- but the publishing end of it is a mixture of creator-owned and creator-shared material and anthology stuff like the Zombie Tales book or the Cthulhu Tales book. So half the time I'm spending just working with freelancers generating material for the anthology books and half the time I'm spending with some of the best writers and artists I know, trying to come up with new properties we can launch in 2008.

NRAMA: So do you have a lot of properties launching in 2008?

MW: We do. At this moment, I don't think we can announce anything. But I've been talking to everyone I know who's not under exclusive contract. I've been calling in favors right and left. This sounds like puffery, but it's true: We really do have a lot of cool stuff that we're going to be announcing when we get to the spring.

NRAMA: Then we'll have to talk again in the spring.

MW: We will!

NRAMA: Do you have more of your own projects coming up for the publisher?

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Waid/Potter01.jpg" align="right">MW: I will be taking the first pass at The Godfather. And that, I'm stoked about. That material is iconic. That material is part of the American pop cultural landscape, and that's a lot of fun to delve into. It's fun to write crime, and it's fun to write villains, and it's fun to write morally ambiguous characters. So that's the plan for the near future: Doing that, doing more Potter's Field, then my pick of other creator-owned and creator-shared stuff I've got that I haven't yet done.

It's still kind of sinking in to me that I'm at a place in my career that if I decide tomorrow that I really, really want to do a story about cowboy mimes, or whatever, or pirates in space, I can just do it. And no one can stop me.

NRAMA: That's exciting, isn't it?

MW: It's very exciting! I've been a little slow out of the gate on that because a big part of taking on the Boom! editor-in-chief job was to get the trains there running on time and move everything along there. But now that we seem to have a much tighter grip on scheduling and the future of the company there, then it's time to start exploring what I can be doing on the creator level.

NRAMA: And you said we're getting more Potter's Field?

MW: When Paul Azaceta's schedule opens up a little bit, we're going to do two more. At least two more, that way we can have a nice trade paperback out there for people. Beyond that, the property's got legs. I'm hoping to do as much as Paul has time to do.

NRAMA: And then the next thing we'll see from you will be the pirate mimes, right?

MW: [laughs] Yeah! Pirate Mimes in Space! That's my next thing. And playing baseball. That's my next gig.

melperfect

01-04-2008, 10:08 AM

While I can certainly understand how it could happen as a creator, it's too bad that the usual online fan-weirdo venom/hatred got to Mark Waid. I'm sure it gets to lots of other creators as well, it would bother me if I were in his shoes.

Good luck with Boom Studios Mark, and I'll continue to support the Brave and the Bold.

Ken B.

01-04-2008, 10:11 AM

I've enjoyed Flash since Waid took over and had no opinion on Acuna's art. I don't know where all the criticisms of him came from. I saw some here but nothing more than the usual differing opinion. Maybe the DC boards?

Also, I've thought those backup strips are some of the best, quickest storytelling I've read in a long time. Especially the first one with Jay Garrick teaching rugged individualism to the anteaters.

And I like the kids. They aren't annoying. They're like Animal Man's kids; nice additions to the story. And of all heroes, the Flash is about moving forward and establishing lineage.

Brave and the Bold....eh...I quit reading after issue #3. Nothing really struck me as it being a premier team up book.

Merai

01-04-2008, 10:11 AM

Awesome to see Pérez will be doing something else at DC.

I'm glad Mark is staying on as Brave and the Bold writer even if his Flash run was cut short. I just hope he does some stuff for Marvel now that his exclusive is up.

larkinja

01-04-2008, 10:13 AM

Great news about more Potter's Field. I enjoyed it. And I cast my vote for Jerry Ordway to stay on Brave and Bold forever.

Another great interview from Vaneta. Matt, I hope you've signed her to a long-term exclusive contract, because she provides some of the best, if not the best interviews for this site.

Kevenn

01-04-2008, 10:15 AM

I loved Acuna's art on Flash. It was the only reason I was picking the title up. When Acuna left, so did I.

Ovid

01-04-2008, 10:20 AM

It's a shame the Internet madness got to him. The closeness of the comics community is double-edged. Unfortunately he's right about the 'familiarity' fad that's happened in superheroes right now. Still, I'll continue to get B&B and I'll be keeping a close eye on anything coming out of BOOM!

Korvac

01-04-2008, 10:23 AM

I also liked Acuna's art - I felt the STORY was lacking. I like Waid too, though.

I hope Peyer's writing matches his wonderful work on Hourman. I miss that book so much.

melperfect

01-04-2008, 10:24 AM

Sluggo

01-04-2008, 10:29 AM

I am very glad to hear that Waid is staying on Brave and the Bold and I really hope they leave him alone and let him do his thing on that book. There are plenty of other books that tie into crossover after crossover. Let this book remain a safe harbor from all that nonsense.

Sad to hear that George Perez is leaving, but I have no problem with Jerry Ordway staying as long as he wants. He is a fantastic artist and I agree with Waid that he needs more regular work.

I would like to see Brave and the Bold be a true GREAT talent showcase title, with Waid the constant and various artists jumping on to tell stories. By that I do not mean 'superstar" artists. I mean industry greats. Perez and Ordway are a great start, get Joe Kubert to draw an issue, get Neal Adams to draw an issue, get John Byrne to draw an issue or an arc. This should be the varsity book, not a try out book for new "hot" talent.

And in case you think I just mean "old guys" I'd also like to see Ivan Reis, Mike McKone, Jim Lee, Ed McGuinness (though that would obviously be a while) Terry Dodson, etc. Established artists who knock it out of the park just about every time.

cynic79

01-04-2008, 10:33 AM

I've enjoyed Waid's recent run on the Flash and am sad to see him go, although the title appears to be in good hands.

I also liked Acuna's art, although I can see why it turned some people off. Freddie Williams has been wonderful on that title as well, and I'm glad to hear he's sticking around.

phunengames

01-04-2008, 10:38 AM

Thank you for the great interview. Lot of information and it gave me things to look foward too.

I loved this quote...

MW: Yeah. Of course, it would have been a harder decision to make had the general reaction to my return to Flash been a little more positive. [laughs]

NRAMA: That made it easier to choose what had to give, huh?

MW: I don't know. You know, I just think, in retrospect, the stars were not in alignment in a lot of ways. I kind of knew we were in trouble right off the bat when I so loved Daniel Acuna's artwork. I so loved it. And I was so unprepared for the insane volume of hatred from the online community about how much they just despised his work on the title. I knew at that point, I thought, "Oh god, we're in trouble. Once more, the online community has me questioning what I thought was good." Which I shouldn't let happen, but it's hard not to do when the volume is that loud.

And at this moment in time, I just ... in terms of superhero work, I feel frozen. I kind of... I feel like I'm momentarily out of step with what fandom wants because I don't get it. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?and the Flash?

And this quote too

NRAMA: So there's hope for those of us that haven't seen our favorite obscure character show up yet.

MW: Maybe. It's a tough balancing act, that book, because you want to make sure that there are marquee characters. Because, again, as I keep insisting, as much as I would love to buy an issue of Brave and the Bold with Adam Strange and the Metal Men, no one else wants to. So you have to have your marquee characters up there, but at the same time, the fun of it is trying to find ways to co-star or guest star the odder characters that can't necessarily carry their own stories but should be in the book anyway.

They were very honest and to the point.

Rubber Sled

01-04-2008, 10:39 AM

Well, I'll admit that Mr. Waid's return to the Flash didn't quite do it for me...It wasn't that I thought the story was bad or anything...It's just that when it was announced that one of my favorite writers of all time was relaunching a book starring my favorite character of all time (who had been MIA for over a year), I expected something...bigger. Instead, we got several months of octopus face aliens. I needed more about what happened to Wally and his family, more about him reconnecting with his friends, and more about him dealing with putting his life back together. I thought that the back-up stories with the horse/dog aliens were going to at least fill in Wally's missing year, but the first three parts out of the four haven't had anything to do with that...If the current storyarc had been the second or third arc of Waid's new run, I would have been fine with it. As the first arc of his big return? Not so much, I'm sorry to say...

Anyway, I'm still a huge fan of Mr. Waid. I loved Potter's Field and will continue to enjoy Brave and the Bold.

Mr. Waid, if you're reading this, thanks for taking a moment to give me a hard time over the phone when you were in Omaha last year! :)

EMeadow

01-04-2008, 10:41 AM

Reactions to Waid's interview:

First, I'd love for him to have addressed BOOM's late problems. I love the books, but he came there to a company that can't solicit/release properly and its something that needs to be fixed soon. Or else just admit timeliness means nothing (though that's somethnig the whole industry will eventually need to cough up and say.)

Glad to see he's staying on Brave and Bold, sorry that George had to be taken off the book. But to answer what he said about fan's reactions to Flash:

I certainly don't recall that there was a lot of vitrol to Acuna's artwork. Yes the internet collectively went "Not what we're looking for" but I don't think it was heated. LOL we just said "Put him back on Uncle Sam". And he decided Marvel had better oppurtunities for him.

Also don't know how bad the "hate the wife and kids" argument is here. I like the idea of Wally's progression, and agree that like Peter Parker, he's a character who has shown such significant growth over the years he's someone who should continue to do so while not aging of course. Him being a father is a good thing.

But growth and change is good. Regression is bad. No matter how Quesada spins it, OMD/BND is regression. Backward steps, not forward steps. Good storytelling will only band-aid it for so long.

tgail

01-04-2008, 10:43 AM

The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?

20 years of Growth and change for Wally West good.

Retconning away 25 years of growth and change for Peter Parker bad.

nightwingoracle

01-04-2008, 10:47 AM

I was excited to see Waid return to FLASH....until I read it. I gave it two issues and then let it go. It just wasn't what I wanted to read. I love Wally and I love Linda....the kids however dominated the book and that wasn't what I was interested in. It has nothing to do with not liking young superheroes...it just I wanted to read a Flash adventure, not a Jai and Iris adventure.

Comparing that to the current abysmal Spider-Man situation is not quite fair. Fans have overwhelmingly supported the Wally and Linda marriage, which has been around for quite some time now. I think people just weren't crazy about the kids dominating the book at Wally's expense.

It scares me that he calls Tom Peyer such a good writer...because outside of HOURMAN, most everything he's written that I've read has been average at best, and down right terrible quite often (DC 2000 and his run on TITANS were just plain awful).

But I will agree with him that Jerry Ordway should be drawing a monthly book. The man's art (especially with the right inker) is fantastic.

I hate to see Perez pulled off BRAVE AND BOLD. That was the major calling card on that book. I like what Waid has done on the book storywise, so I'll still stay around for it. And I do like the unusual pairings. The current issue with the oddball pairings has been a lot of fun. I'd love to see a Supergirl/Tommy Tomorrow pairing (both as an homage to their past meeting pre-COIE and as a way of spotlighting Tommy); a Wonder Woman/Catwoman pairing; a Nightwing/Red Arrow pairing; and a Creeper/Demon pairing.

geoffdude

01-04-2008, 10:48 AM

Waid : "MW: I don't know. You know, I just think, in retrospect, the stars were not in alignment in a lot of ways. I kind of knew we were in trouble right off the bat when I so loved Daniel Acuna's artwork. I so loved it. And I was so unprepared for the insane volume of hatred from the online community about how much they just despised his work on the title. I knew at that point, I thought, "Oh god, we're in trouble. Once more, the online community has me questioning what I thought was good." Which I shouldn't let happen, but it's hard not to do when the volume is that loud."

I'm one of those who did not like Acuna's art style. But, could of tolerated it if the new Wally stories had been more dynamic. I like Waid's previous work, but there was no deep history of Wally as the Flash with kids in tow. The kids were born, then there were a few really bad stories with them in it, then BAM!, Wally and family were gone for over a year. Enter Bart, exit bart. The basic idea here is fans want good, new, FLASH stories... not new mandates that must be spoon fed us. Flash fans are waiting for some really good FLASH only Super Hero stories not FLASH & FAMILY fire-side chats.

Waid : " The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?"

C'mon... is this really that hard to figure out. If so, then maybe it's time for a new gig (with all due respect). Spider-man while married, didn't have too many OPRAH story lines running through the titles. Sure, MJ, May and etc., would pop in from time to time, but for the most part Spidey was always involved with some ACTION, or what-not, and the family baggage was left by the side of the road. FLASH, while only recently married (compared to Spidey) never really got the chance to grow that status quo before the babies came, and then FLASH-FAMILY vanished, and then Bart, and then no Bart, and then FLASH-family found, then jumped-aged kids, and then FLASH-family stories... and on and on. :rolleyes:

The two characters stories are not comparable. And in the end, Spidey's doesn't matter to the FLASH, or the writers personal home life (married and with kids :confused: ). What matters is telling stories about a guy who can run FAST, I mean really SONIC FAST, and kicks some butt while doing it. That's what seems to have been lost over the last few years. It's high time for DC to finally remember this, and get back to the fundamentals of what makes this book unique. :)

geoffdude

Spade

01-04-2008, 10:50 AM

I think his run would have been better if he had a better threat for Flash.

IvCNuB4

01-04-2008, 10:50 AM

including the Earth-3 Mr. Mxyzptlk

Wait .. why would there be an Earth-3 Mxyzptlk ? The Fifth Dimension is outside of the multiverse .....

Kiryu

01-04-2008, 10:50 AM

I've loved Jai and Iris and I'll be done with anything on DC that isn't essential if they mess with those kids. I'll miss Mark on Flash quite a bit. Glad to see Brave and the Bold will continue, sad to see George go, but Ordway should do nicely.

tgail

01-04-2008, 10:52 AM

I certainly don't recall that there was a lot of vitrol to Acuna's artwork. Yes the internet collectively went "Not what we're looking for" but I don't think it was heated. LOL we just said "Put him back on Uncle Sam". And he decided Marvel had better oppurtunities for him.

I recall more than a little Acuna hate, and I have to admit that although I was not one of the outspoken haters, I certainly didn't enjoy his take on The Flash. I didn't think he was a good fit at all. Everybody looked too beefy. It was weird. Of course, I haven't really been fond of any art on Flash since 225, so...

pfunk70

01-04-2008, 10:53 AM

I agree with the above posters. I've enjoyed both of Waid's runs on the Flash and have enjoyed the art of Acuna and WIlliams. The story, while a bit slow to get its legs is still a 100 times better than the restart with Bart (minus Guggenheim's short stint). Hopefully, Waid will make a long stay on B&B as it is currently among my top 3 books each month.

ElijahSnowFan

01-04-2008, 10:54 AM

that was an interesting interview, because of Waid's candor in answering the questions.

speaking for myself about his current Flash run, i found the Acuna art to be...acceptable. i simply don't recall liking it or disliking it enough to comment on it.

the problem i had with the storyline that Waid crafted was, again, with PACE.

i swear, we get these status quo changes, and Waid is correct: fans ask for certain things, and we do want them.

but i'll say it: his storyline was SLOW. it was decompressed, it was...boring. i felt no real urgency in the storyline, nothing to grab me and make me care.

it was the same thing that plagued Bart Allen's relaunch -- for some reason, companies and creators think writing for a trade before you even grab the readership with the change itself is effective, and i truly don't think it is.

again, i respect Mark Waid's technical ability as a writer as much as anyone in the industry. but i found his Flash return to be so slow, i just didn't enjoy reading it nearly as much as i thought i would.

please, if any creator even cares what one reader thinks: STOP THE DECOMPRESSION. you are killing us, AND yourselves.

Scarlet Mage

01-04-2008, 10:56 AM

Since the fans, especially on the Internet, turn on Mister Waid pretty much every other project maybe he should plan accordingly. Before teh the next DC project he pours his heart and soul into maybe he should do a Prez or Brother Power The Geek one shot first just to give them their target and get the hate out of the way.

Kamandi2

01-04-2008, 10:56 AM

Since George is off Brave and the Bold, is it going to be monthly instead of 9 times a year?

Heck, if Ordway can handle it, make it semi-monthly :)

Clem

01-04-2008, 10:58 AM

I'm sorry to hear the fans are confusing him.

As far as i'm concerned, i like his status quo on Flash, i just think it could have been established in a better story than sea monsters and aliens. Really get inside the heads of these characters and define them for us. Sea monsters just wasn't the way to go. No biggie.

I've got to admit i wasn't the biggest fan of Acuna's art. Not to say that i hated it, it just wasn't my thing. When i think of Flash i usually think of Kolins work on the title, which Acuna sadly wasn't.

It's a shame you couldn't have stuck around longer.

holtom2000

01-04-2008, 11:04 AM

maybe waid was responding to sales? I know I didn't care for his second time around and said that, but hey, I was just expressing an opinion, not insulting the man. If some people enjoyed his second effort, good for them.

DarkJared

01-04-2008, 11:06 AM

I think the problem with the kids was that we wanted more Flash instead. Look at TV - shows with kids have a tough balancing act. Two and Half Men does a great job balancing the kid. He's only thrown in a scene for a joke or two and the majority of the show is Charlie and Alan in adult situations. I was so afraid he be big and annoying and everywhere trying to cute up a scene. I think the book should go back to being 95% Flash only and thrown in the supporting cast (kids included in that) for a few panels here and there to throw the Flash's adventures into perspective for the reader in terms of him being a family man.

ClayinCA

01-04-2008, 11:07 AM

Perez is off Brave and the Bold?? Aw, crap...

See, this just pisses me off. A perfect creative team, and then the artist, who's doing some of his best work in years on this book, is taken off for "another project." Honestly, it was such fun seeing Perez do something that wasn't Crisis on Infinite Countdowns to 52 Identities, but was a regular monthly release not "in service to nine other crossovers"...and now I have the feeling he's gone off to do exactly that. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know if I'll continue with Brave and the Bold. I like Jerry Ordway's artwork, but I don't know if it's enough to get me to buy this book. I like the idea floated above that other major creators, like Kubert or Byrne or Adams (!) could come in and do story arcs...but on the whole, I think it helps the book to have a regular creative team. I dunno...I'm on the fence.

As for The Flash, I was evidently also in the minority in that I liked both Acuna's artwork and what Waid was doing with the story. So I guess I'm out of step with the "online community" as well. (Oh wait. I hated One More Day. I guess I'm right in step, then...never mind.)

johnchrist

01-04-2008, 11:08 AM

And at this moment in time, I just ... in terms of superhero work, I feel frozen. I kind of... I feel like I'm momentarily out of step with what fandom wants because I don't get it. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?

AHAHAHAHA!! Exactly! Waid just hit the nail on the head man. Jeeze, I heard more bile spewed by a community of people over this issue than when we invaded freakin' Iraq!

Ever since I got back into reading comics with the advent of Civil War I have heard nothing but bitching and moaning by the online fandom about any single piece of change... it's like everyone wants fun and exciting stories minus any of the catalysts which actually CAUSE them to BE fun and exciting!

Frankly, I loved CW, I like OMD (I just would rather they had put off the BND pages at the end so I could've had my cliffhanger) and I am curious if I am the only fan out there willing to admit that!

BAMJoe

01-04-2008, 11:16 AM

I still think that we missed out on what could have been a great run. I enjoyed the Waid issues. They weren't his best ever, but he had to set up the family dynamic. Reader's now are very impatient and want immediate gratification. I for one will be missing you Mr. Waid. You can feel free to write any book and I will be there to read it. I am really looking forward to the Godfather series.

Guicho

01-04-2008, 11:16 AM

While I can certainly understand how it could happen as a creator, it's too bad that the usual online fan-weirdo venom/hatred got to Mark Waid.
I think a dozen or so really loud complainers realized how much power they actually had when they got DC editorial to completely cave on their Bart is the new Flash direction and quickly revert to the Wally status quo. Sales weren't even that bad and in an interview here I think Didio was like; there are you happy now, as if it was done just to shut them up.

MW: ...And the whole Flash line has been about legacy, about passing the identity along from Jay Garrick to Barry to Wally. So to me, the book is about legacy and is about heritage and family. I felt like that's what the comic has always been about.
It is when you're talking about justifying why Wally has the mantle, but use the same logic to say why now Bart has the mantle and you get the sh!t storm you saw on these boards. The group that currently has Flash editorials ear want to preserve their status quo, and that is Wally as they know him, that means not moving anything "forward" from what they have, so it doesn't include Bart or Kids encroaching on their status quo.

.

bhudson1972

01-04-2008, 11:17 AM

And at this moment in time, I just ... in terms of superhero work, I feel frozen. I kind of... I feel like I'm momentarily out of step with what fandom wants because I don't get it. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?

I'm not sure what people don't understand. It's really simple. Linda and the kids are great. Super powered, rapidly aging kids are bad. Let the kids be normal and keep them out of the spotlight for now. I love Linda. She's always been great.

Also, since you brought it up, I am fine with Peter and MJ getting divorced. However, there is no way Peter and MJ should have made a deal with the devil. Continuity never needed to be messed with. That is what people are mad about. Not so much that they broke up but that they never WAS and they made a deal with the DEVIL!

BAMJoe

01-04-2008, 11:19 AM

Innercaine

01-04-2008, 11:24 AM

I guess I was in the minority. I liked Acuna.. always have. Sometimes it's hard to post on Newsarama, like swimming against a tidal wave.

And I hope Tom Peyer keeps Linda, Jai and Iris part of the book. I confess it took me a couple issues to warm to them, but I have grown to like them. The less they become just comic relief, the better they are as characters (though acting kids should be expected, but that's my point, kids aren't necessarily comic relief)

I hate knee jerk reactions.

As for B&B, yeah.. I'm cool with Jerry. Sad to see Perez go, but they found a good replacement.

vfxdammerung

01-04-2008, 11:29 AM

Gonna miss Waid on Flash....I liked the current dynamic of the family and the issues have been terrific.

ElijahSnowFan

01-04-2008, 11:33 AM

Reader's now are very impatient and want immediate gratification.

i think this criticism is unfair to readers. i really do.

in a world where, for instance, Jonah Hex and Detective Comics (under Paul Dini) can be done-in-one -- which means that stories can have good pace and move a plot along briskly -- why is it a fault of readers who are paying $3 an issue to want more pace in the books they're buying?

i don't think anybody demands immediate gratification every time out. but in this storyline, random aliens + the kids + where the West family has been...i mean, come on. can't we just get to the point EVER in a book?

where is it written that the storyline had to take however many issues it did? did anybody ask the question before publication, "how quickly can we resolve these situations so readers can get comfortable with the status quo?"

if that question was asked and then the storyline reflected that, i honestly believe, i really do, that with Waid's skill, readers would have accepted the kids very quickly. but it was so drawn out, with nothing happening and nothing being resolved...again, i was just bored, waiting for something to happen.

oh, and for the record: i LIKE the kids. i think they're interesting, and i like Linda, as always. i like families and comics that aren't always dark and twisted.

it was just...slow.

newfoundma

01-04-2008, 11:40 AM

I didn't know that there was a lot of hatred out there for Waid's Flash. I mean, I knew people complained about Acuna's art, but a lot of top artists have polarizing effects. My biggest problem with Waid's Flash was that he was moving too fast (heh). Why rush past Iris and Jai's infanthood? Why show Linda as this super scientist sorta out of nowhere? And the weird planet with the giant rats was just weird. But I guess he was doing the ebst with what he was handed. I did drop the book, but at least he wasn't destroying the character, like Marvel with Spider-Man or DC with Bart Allen.

defchild

01-04-2008, 11:44 AM

Just as Waid was returning, I had undertaken reading his entire run on the title, along with Geoff Johns' as well. I had high hopes for Waid's return, but I agree with others that the new issues have been missing something, especially compared to the general excellence of the book before.

I like Waid, and I feel bad that the negative reaction basically drove him off. In my case, the problem wasn't the kids (well, maybe their costumes should go). The bigger issue for me has been the lack of an interesting threat and the fact that Wally seems very distant as a character in these issues.

I like Tom Peyer's work and I hope he gets a good run going!

Robb Welch

01-04-2008, 11:54 AM

Will you look at that...
Mark mentions the venom of internet comics forums...
and thus far .... take a look around....
No one has said anything like "Waid should be fired for not hating OMD!!!".
....
....
....
Knock on wood.

And for all the bile thats on these forums? That I'm always complaining about? You just cost me my favorite book of 07.

EDIT: Spoke too soon.

jmcl89

01-04-2008, 11:55 AM

I think it was perhaps an ill-conceived idea to make the Flash Rogues unavailable just as the title was being rebooted. I'm fine with the kids, but I thought the aliens weren't really the best idea.

Cicero

01-04-2008, 11:57 AM

I really didn't know what to expect from The Flash. Of the character/series I'd read only Zero Hour, All Flash (amazingly good) and a few silver age issues starring Barry Allen (interesting, but dated), and of Waid's, I'd read only his brief X-Men tenure, which was a highlight for me in middle school, and the first few issues of The Brave and the Bold (I loved Supergirl's issues). As a result, I had no expectations, only interest.

But I didn't like what I read. Some of the criticisms here seem accurate - the kids occupied the spotlight at Wally's expense, the story moved too slowly, and the art, while interesting, wasn't well-suited to the story. In all, The Flash ... just wasn't very interesting. And that was a disappointment.

I'm sorry to see Mr. Waid go; maybe his new work will strike a chord.

SpyGuy

01-04-2008, 12:03 PM

As others have mentioned, I think the core problem with Mark Waid's "The Wild Wests" was that it focused too much on the twins and not enough on Wally. He had been gone for over a year and abruptly replaced by DC's ridiculous "Age Bart and see if it works" experiment, so Wally fans such as myself wanted to see him back in action.

What we got, however, was the first adventure of the twins, with Wally reduced to a supporting character in his own book. If Waid wanted to write about the twins, fine, but he shouldn't be surprised that people were disappointed by those first few issues before the focus started shifting back to Wally.

von Doom, M.D.

01-04-2008, 12:05 PM

Acuna's art wasn't my favourite, and it felt like the wrong style for the book, but it didn't bother me enough to drop it. The boring story did. For the relaunch of Wally-as-Flash, with a readership stung from all the crap that had come through that franchise over the past 2 years (basically since Geoff Johns left the book), the story certainly didn't have the punch to it that I felt was needed.

As for the family angle, I like families in comics. It's the reason the FF are my favourite characters. And so far, Waid has shown that the West family is nothing but a good thing.

Nobody

01-04-2008, 12:08 PM

I'm not sure what people don't understand. It's really simple. Linda and the kids are great. Super powered, rapidly aging kids are bad. Let the kids be normal and keep them out of the spotlight for now. I love Linda. She's always been great.

That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Wally with a family is a good thing. He's always had one, albeit an extended one, with Jay, Joan, Bart, etc. The problem with the kids is that they weren't kids, let alone characters. They were superpowered macguffins.

thorionthei

01-04-2008, 12:08 PM

Waid's a great writer. GREAT! But I do think he's out of touch about what fans want.

I loved his recent Flash and I love the kids. I'm pretty involved in online fandom and didn't see much detractors for the kids or Acuna or any of it.

Waid's Legion on the other hand? Yeah that was a disaster. That really showed me he has no idea what fans want of out the Legion. Eat It Grandpa? He killed that book and it's a shame cause he's a great writer but just made a very bad choice in direction.

luckybucky

01-04-2008, 12:17 PM

I feel like I'm momentarily out of step with what fandom wants because I don't get it. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?

I feel just the same way, and I'm sorry that it's come back to bite even an excellent creator like Mark Waid.

I'm laughing at all the Joe vs. JMS vitriol in the Marvel posts over One More Day, and have been tempted more than once to point out that if it's terrific teen-super-soap-opera action you crave, pick up Blue Beetle. If it's superhero husband/Dad stories you want, pick up the Flash. Either way, DC's got it while Marvel is still figuring out how to please Heroclix players.

[And I say that lovingly, since I'm gobbling up Messiah Complex just like everyone else.]

I think the set up for the Flash is spot-on perfect, and if Peyer messes with it I'll be pissed.

thorionthei

01-04-2008, 12:18 PM

Also I love Waid's B&B. And while I'm sad to see Perez go I'm a big Ordway fan as well. After seeing Ordway do a few issues of JSA I wanted him back on that title asap! This is just as nice.

Rockin' Rich

01-04-2008, 12:21 PM

It's insane that da Ordster is not drawing a monthly book, preferably one with Superman in it. But Brave & Bold would be just fine, thank you very much.

The Mirrorball Man

01-04-2008, 12:31 PM

<img
MW: And don't get me wrong -- there are hundreds of really good, vibrant, exciting and innovative comics being done right now. I'm just not sure they're being done in the superhero field as much. There are still innovative superhero comics out there. But that which seems to be the most widely received in superhero comics right now is not necessarily the most innovative stuff.
Right now, superhero comics are like those old, decrepit rock bands that peaked decades ago, and yet decide to reform and tour again, playing the same old recycled karaoke songs over and over again to nostalgia-crazed thirtysomething trying to find some comfort in an ever-changing world. Anything resembling change, vitality, freshness is met with instant scepticism if not downright outrage. Which, really, is not very important at all, considering how many amazing comics are published outside the superhero niche. Let the capes burn, I say.

Rockin' Rich

01-04-2008, 12:37 PM

I'm all for a diverse mix of genres, but to me, the superhero genre is like the blues; sure, it's only three chords, but what can you do with 'em?

ManBearPig

01-04-2008, 12:51 PM

Guggenheim set the bar pretty high after his stint on Flash, and Waid just couldn't deliver that kind of quality.

KraziJoe

01-04-2008, 12:55 PM

Wait .. why would there be an Earth-3 Mxyzptlk ? The Fifth Dimension is outside of the multiverse .....

Yeah, that caught my eye too...Makes no sense to me, maybe someone can shed some light on it?

as for the Art. I could care less. I want a good story and the current flash stories have been lacking and I am on the brink of canceling it. Some of the problem is in the fact that the Rogue Gallery is caught up in Countdown so they cannot really be in the book. I really didnt understand the whole monsters storyline and I am not sure if I like the kids and their abilities.
Maybe it is best for another writer to take over the book and see what they can do with it.

Michael D.

01-04-2008, 01:02 PM

"MW: ...as much as I would love to buy an issue of Brave and the Bold with Adam Strange and the Metal Men, no one else wants to. "

Oh like hell. Mark, I stand with you shoulder-to-shoulder when it comes to B-listers teaming up! In fact, I think you should go even further: Haunted Tank & The Inferior Five! Plastic Man & Solivar! Polar Boy & the animated corpse of Abin Sur!

Do it, Waid! I can guarantee you sales in the, er, double digits (?)

Doc Nero

01-04-2008, 01:07 PM

Wait .. why would there be an Earth-3 Mxyzptlk ? The Fifth Dimension is outside of the multiverse .....

There was a Mxyzptlk for Earth 1 & 2 pre COIE.

deadkid

01-04-2008, 01:08 PM

btjs

01-04-2008, 01:09 PM

This is truly sad. I can't believe people have Waid doubting Jai and Iris's existence.

His first arc was just not that bad. It was not a blockbuster but it was fine! I see no reason to remove the West children and if they do I'll be furious. And this is coming from someone who wanted to drop Flash when Bart was killed. I don't have a problem with their having powers or being a major part of the story. That hook was what made me stay with the book! It's easy to have them in the background doing nothing while you go back to the same old Wally stories of the past, what, 200 issues - but what would be new about that?

And for the record, I thought and still feel that Dan Acuna's art is beautiful.

phunengames

01-04-2008, 01:14 PM

Right now, superhero comics are like those old, decrepit rock bands that peaked decades ago, and yet decide to reform and tour again, playing the same old recycled karaoke songs over and over again to nostalgia-crazed thirtysomething trying to find some comfort in an ever-changing world. Anything resembling change, vitality, freshness is met with instant scepticism if not downright outrage. Which, really, is not very important at all, considering how many amazing comics are published outside the superhero niche. Let the capes burn, I say.

Well this is the other extreme. The “I am too cool for school approach to comic reading”, that feels if is has a “cape” or a lot of reader it must suck. Before knocking the old and decrepit step back and think if the new stuff to day will last as long as has the old stuff has.

The problem is that it is hard to get fans of cape stuff to buy non cape material and fans of non cape material to buy cape. Greeting people to look at material even a little out of the comfort zone is very difficult. To me it may be easier to innovate in a non cape book because fan biases developed over the years in cape books limit what you can do with them. If a writer strays outside of the line in a Marvel or DC book fans fury will be quick and deadly. 60 plus years of orthodoxy for Superman does not have a lot of wiggle room. Hair length and cape length can be just as important as story length to some readers.

I love change I embrace it. People who have a death grip on the status quo annoy me, but what annoy me even more or those that shun classics because it classic. Bias is bias and stunts all innovation.

TheNoirPI

01-04-2008, 01:26 PM

Wait .. why would there be an Earth-3 Mxyzptlk ? The Fifth Dimension is outside of the multiverse .....
It's magic. We don't have to explain it!

Oh wait. Wrong company.

protege

01-04-2008, 01:30 PM

Okay- is B&B going to end when Waid and perez leave, or is it going to continue with a new creative team?

worldsfinest

01-04-2008, 01:30 PM

The metal men adn Adam Strange? O hell yes i want to see it. I have been enjoying the hell out of B&B, sorry to see Perez going, but glad to hear Waid plans on staying on it for as long as he enjoys it.

Darn, I was hoping Waid would be off the B & B title with issue 12. At anyrate, B&B is exactly where you should see B, C, and D list characters.

The Mirrorball Man

01-04-2008, 01:30 PM

Well this is the other extreme. The “I am too cool for school approach to comic reading”, that feels if is has a “cape” or a lot of reader it must suck.
Oh, that's not me at all. I love superhero comics. I just think they've become so stagnant and lifeless and weighted down by byzantine continuity and bizarre fan expectations that I'd rather read something else.

khuxford

01-04-2008, 01:37 PM

MW: I don't know. You know, I just think, in retrospect, the stars were not in alignment in a lot of ways. I kind of knew we were in trouble right off the bat when I so loved Daniel Acuna's artwork. I so loved it. And I was so unprepared for the insane volume of hatred from the online community about how much they just despised his work on the title. I knew at that point, I thought, "Oh god, we're in trouble. Once more, the online community has me questioning what I thought was good." Which I shouldn't let happen, but it's hard not to do when the volume is that loud.

And at this moment in time, I just ... in terms of superhero work, I feel frozen. I kind of... I feel like I'm momentarily out of step with what fandom wants because I don't get it. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?

NRAMA: When you went into this, did you feel like growth and change were good for this title? Because I remember hearing you in a panel at a convention defending the idea of comics characters not aging.

MW: I still defend that. I still defend that no one wants to see an 18-year-old Bart Simpson. But at the same time, I also believe very strongly in playing the cards that you're dealt. And Wally had two infant children and a wife.

See...the thing both have in common? The really artifical, nonsensical parts of the telling. Mephisto and "it's magic, we don't have to explain it" matches up with infants becoming grown kids overnight (in the eyes of the readers) with "it's weird science that we'll never fully explain".

The hand you were dealt was infants, sir...and kudos to you for trying something different and all...but how you didn't exactly stick with the hand you were dealt and, while technically still "growth and change", prematurely aging the babies isn't just something to ignore in the equation.

luckybucky

01-04-2008, 01:40 PM

I don't have a problem with their having powers or being a major part of the story. That hook was what made me stay with the book! ...

And for the record, I thought and still feel that Dan Acuna's art is beautiful.

Yes on both counts.

Kiryu

01-04-2008, 01:53 PM

A quick thing about Bart.

While I will free admit I am a hardcore fan of Wally as the Flash and I did not think Bart was ready for the mantle(Hell, he wasn't ready for Kid Flash). I think Bart as Flash would have been more accepted by the fans if..well..

The entire Fastest Man Alive series hadn't been a piece of dog crap.

Bart was turned from an interesting, unique, and energetic comedic character to a crap stereotypical "reluctant teenage hero who just wants a normal life" character. Had a horribly forced relationship that swept everything about him established in Impulse and Waid's time on Flash under the rug. Oh, and made a god awful uninteresting villain.

And that was before Guggenhiem showed up and turned the Rogues into coke sniffing, child murdering, scum. Wrote Iris, Zoom, and Inertia completely out of character along with ALL the Rogues.

It was bad writing that put Bart in his grave.

Kamandi2

01-04-2008, 01:58 PM

Kamandi2

01-04-2008, 02:02 PM

Yeah, that caught my eye too...Makes no sense to me, maybe someone can shed some light on it?

An Earth-3 Mr. Mxyzptlk makes sense to me. I prefer that each character could potentially exist in each universe. They said the New Gods only exist on New Earth but then the Captain Carrot series had the New Dogs appear as New Gods counterparts from the Justa Lotta Animals Earth so obviously there are counterparts in other universes.

Kamandi2

01-04-2008, 02:03 PM

Okay- is B&B going to end when Waid and perez leave, or is it going to continue with a new creative team?

Didn't you read the article? Perez is already gone but Waid is staying with a new artist coming on board.

01-04-2008, 02:07 PM

MW: I would think so. I would hope so. And I think I'll feel that way once I get some distance from it. And once people stop hurling tomatoes at me when I walk down the street...No, you've misinterpreted this particular derisional act towards you, Mark. It's not for your current Flash run - that's been excellent regardless of what the other 11 Internet Trolls have to babble - it's for the debacle you called The Legion that *STILL* isn't fixed even with Jim Shooter taking it over. That's why you get the eggs thrown at you.

Dennis K

01-04-2008, 02:12 PM

MW: I don't know. You know, I just think, in retrospect, the stars were not in alignment in a lot of ways. I kind of knew we were in trouble right off the bat when I so loved Daniel Acuna's artwork. I so loved it. And I was so unprepared for the insane volume of hatred from the online community about how much they just despised his work on the title. I knew at that point, I thought, "Oh god, we're in trouble. Once more, the online community has me questioning what I thought was good." Which I shouldn't let happen, but it's hard not to do when the volume is that loud.

I wasn't a fan of Acuna's artwork, but not so much that I had to go online and scream about it. And Mark, in light of recent events, I've got to say I'm glad to hear you DO listen to the online community (or the community in general) as some people just ignore fan response completely these days.

And at this moment in time, I just ... in terms of superhero work, I feel frozen. I kind of... I feel like I'm momentarily out of step with what fandom wants because I don't get it. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?

I'm sorry you feel out of step with us, Mark. Personally, my problem with OMD is that it undoes 20+ years of stories and a marriage that the majority of fandom has consistently proven they want.

MW: I still defend that. I still defend that no one wants to see an 18-year-old Bart Simpson. But at the same time, I also believe very strongly in playing the cards that you're dealt. And Wally had two infant children and a wife.

And you know, I thought Wally was an exception to this because Wally was the one character in all of comics that we've been able to watch grow up with some consistency, without any sort of weird continuity blips or reboots of any sizeable nature. And the whole Flash line has been about legacy, about passing the identity along from Jay Garrick to Barry to Wally. So to me, the book is about legacy and is about heritage and family. I felt like that's what the comic has always been about.

So given that when I was approached, I had a wife and two infant children to deal with, it only made sense to me to not drop a safe on them immediately, so that's why I kind of took the gig. I was terrified that if I didn't step in to protect Wally and his family, the next edict would be to [laughs], you know, have Dr. Light rape the children and beat Linda to death or something, and it would be the next Dark Flash. And no one wants that.

I personally had started reading The Flash during Geoff's run, but when Wally vanished to be replaced by a magically aged Bart who was a completely different character, I stopped caring. Having Bart grow as a character isn't a bad thing, but such a sudden massive change with a poor explanation is. Then Wally came back, and once again I tried to get into the book. I would have no problem with Wally being married with a wife and kids. I'm a huge fan of Buddy Baker. But the second I saw Linda in their underground SUPER LAB with their MAGICALLY AGED children with wacky super-powers and the whole "other dimension full of beings that love Flashes" I was turned off.

MW: Right. I honestly wanted it to be something new. I can't really imagine why people would want me to do the same thing I did years ago when there are already 100 issues of that printed for them to choose from. And again, I'm trying to say this honestly, without being bitter or sarcastic about this or anything. In the market, at this moment, judging by what's successful at both Marvel and DC, it just seems like the market is for stuff that is familiar. That hasn't always been the case, and that probably won't always be the case, but at this moment, it feels very strongly that what everyone wants is a sense of familiarity. Does that make any sense?

I can't speak for the market. But I absolutely love Blue Beetle. I think it's new and innovative and the best monthly book coming out right now.

NRAMA: And you said we're getting more Potter's Field?

MW: When Paul Azaceta's schedule opens up a little bit, we're going to do two more. At least two more, that way we can have a nice trade paperback out there for people. Beyond that, the property's got legs. I'm hoping to do as much as Paul has time to do.

Potters Field was awesome. I'm glad you're doing more.

ed2ward

01-04-2008, 02:23 PM

I really liked Acuna's art on 'The Flash' and I also liked the book as a whole when Mr. Waid took over. However, the things that I liked about the story are probably the things that were really off-putting to a lot of readers. I liked the sense of growth and family. I thought that it felt like a genuinely 'all ages' book that had a potentially strong ensemble cast emphasis with different identification points for different readers. I liked having a DC book that fit this mold to add to Marvel's FF and Power Pack. The thing is - that family adventure title that I really liked - that's not The Flash. It's not what most people see The Flash as anyways. Combine that with the fact that, from the outside, it appeared that DC was just flailing around for any sort of direction on properties like the Flash and Wonder Woman and it became difficult to accept any significant changes on titles as anything more than the result of blind panic. I completely get why people wouldn't like it. I did like it, but, again, the things that I liked about it were not things that made it a good 'Flash' comic.
As far as change - I like change in the characters. I think that the 18-year-old Bart Simpson is sort of an Apples-to-Oranges argument with regards to storytelling expectations. With very, very, very limited exceptions viewers of the Simpsons know and expect that each episode of the series will be self-contained and will end with the status quo the same way that it was at the beginning. It is further understood that if this is not the case that somehow a 'reset' button will be pushed off camera between that episode and the next one. With serialized stories that focus on soap-opera elements growth is simply an expectation. We expect that not only will change occur in events but that new events will build off of previous events.
There haven't been any significant stand-alone stories in the Marvel or DC Universe's in quite some time. Everything is building from one issue to the next to the next to the next. By setting the expectation in readers that each issue leads into another into another and into another we are given the expectation that these are all building blocks to something larger. Even if there is no 'grand plan' or 'big finish', just seeing the growth of the characters and the size of their history is it's own kind of reward. I suspect that there aren't many people who actually hate Wally having a family. My guess would be that they just felt screwed by the way things played out with Bart and then frustrated that they got 'Flash Family' instead of 'THE Flash' when they picked up the subsequent issues. I would have been very curious to see if people came around to the new Flash dynamic after it had been running (no pun intended) a little while. I suspect that once there had been a couple of trades out there that word of mouth would have started to spread and it would have found a readership. (Whatever creators may want, I know that I never see ongoings recommended in singles anymore except for mini-series and brand new titles. Anything else I recommend or see other people recommending comes once there's at least one trade (generally two). I don't think that any title can accurately gauge it's audience anymore until Trade sales are factored in.). Guess we won't know now though will we....
I am, and have been, a fan of the Peter and MJ marriage. I think that it enriches Peter Parker's character and provides a ton of opportunities that have yet to be explored by creators. The one and only reason that I've been reading the JMS run has been the way that he handles Peter's relationships with MJ and May. (I really, really dislike every other element of his run, but those dynamics have been a strong enough saving grace to keep me reading). In spite of this, I would have (very reluctantly) accepted an ending to the marriage if the ending had been a story that actually, you know, made sense within the fictional world I was emotionally invested in. Instead we got an event that fandom had very, very vocally and consistently indicated it did not want brought about in a manner so clumsy and ill-concieved that it really felt like big giant 'F-you' to loyal readers.

Aaron

01-04-2008, 02:25 PM

Yeah, it's prolly time for Waid to move on. He's definitely taking on certain Byrne-esque qualities in recent interviews. His "tone" on LSH was the first giveaway that he had somehow morphed into Grouchy Old Man mode. Now, he sticks his head in the sand and pretends not to understand the complaints people had with his Flash return.

It's really quite simple: people didn't respond to Jai and Iris taking over the book at the expense of Wally. It smacked of editorial mandate, and it robbed the book of all the elements that fans were most looking forward to when his return was announced.

And, yeah, Acuna was a mismatch on the art.

But, come on, let's compare this to the near absolute praise he's getting on Brave and Bold. Doesn't this prove that when a story is done well, with an appealling combination of artist and writer, that fans WILL respond positively?

He doesn't understand why people don't like OMD? For the same reason so many things fall flat these days: fans DON'T WANT EDITORIALLY WRITTEN COMICS. It doesn't work.

It's the books that seem to escape the editorial fiat that get the most praise. There's something to be learned there.

So, yeah, take some time off, Mark. Enjoy your new responsibilities at Boom. Hopefully you'll shake off the dust and come back someday and be that great writer you once were.

Aaron

The Mirrorball Man

01-04-2008, 02:31 PM

Doesn't this prove that when a story is done well, with an appealling combination of artist and writer, that fans WILL respond positively?
Does it really? Or does it prove than fans respond positively to old-fashioned art and storytelling?

Jason Seaver

01-04-2008, 02:44 PM

It's really quite simple: people didn't respond to Jai and Iris taking over the book at the expense of Wally. It smacked of editorial mandate, and it robbed the book of all the elements that fans were most looking forward to when his return was announced.
Well, that may be the fans' issue, though, shared with DC's putting out fake solicitations so that the fans really couldn't know what Waid was planning. I'd actually be kind of surprised if DiDio had mandated that The Flash be written as about a superhero family; from the interview, that certainly sounds like it was Mark Waid's idea (especially considering that he's said many a time that he has always put a lot of himself into Wally).

breakfast

01-04-2008, 03:10 PM

I like The Flash's family dynamic. I'll admit, I'd rather have the kids not be super-powered, but I'm fine with the fact that they are.

I hope people aren't too against the idea of the family in the books and are maybe just against how they've been introduced, or something. But I suppose you can't win. He tried to introduce them but then people complain that there's not enough attention on Flash. But when I think about it, if it immediately started off as a total Wally-focused story, I would get a bit irritated and I'd like to know what's going on with the family. I'm sure if he would've stayed on for a bit longer he would've started writing more stories about Wally once the family was all sorted out.

Ah, well.

Innercaine

01-04-2008, 03:31 PM

HitOrMiss

01-04-2008, 03:38 PM

See...the thing both have in common? The really artifical, nonsensical parts of the telling. Mephisto and "it's magic, we don't have to explain it" matches up with infants becoming grown kids overnight (in the eyes of the readers) with "it's weird science that we'll never fully explain".

The hand you were dealt was infants, sir...and kudos to you for trying something different and all...but how you didn't exactly stick with the hand you were dealt and, while technically still "growth and change", prematurely aging the babies isn't just something to ignore in the equation.

Not to be anymore nitpicky than some, but at the very least, the aging of the twins has basis in Flash lore from the past, namely Bart Allen. When he was born, his again was VERY accelerated, to the point of I believe him being physically around 13 when Iris brought him from the future to the present, but really being only around 3, due to the fact he has the blood of a speedster running through his veins, just as the twins do. So, with Flash, the twins are not the first instance of this happening, but it is the first time I think the audience sees it first hand, since Bart came in at the tail end of his age dilemma, with powers similar to Wally's which somehow aided in decreasing his aging to normal.

Vic Vega

01-04-2008, 04:00 PM

Not to be anymore nitpicky than some, but at the very least, the aging of the twins has basis in Flash lore from the past, namely Bart Allen. When he was born, his again was VERY accelerated, to the point of I believe him being physically around 13 when Iris brought him from the future to the present, but really being only around 3, due to the fact he has the blood of a speedster running through his veins, just as the twins do. So, with Flash, the twins are not the first instance of this happening, but it is the first time I think the audience sees it first hand, since Bart came in at the tail end of his age dilemma, with powers similar to Wally's which somehow aided in decreasing his aging to normal.

I know this, you know this and even the Flash fans know this that have been paying attention. That it makes sense within the rules that the book sets up is irrelevant. ITS NOT WHAT THE FAN WANTED RIGHTNOWTHISVERYSECOND.

The book didn't give them Wally fighting the Rogues RIGHTNOWTHISVERYSECOND and they wailed like banshees. The problem with internet critcism is that its impulse. A guy reads a comic thinks "I kinda don't like this" and he's off to post an angry rant filled with vitriol 15 seconds later.

The "Wild Wests" storyline a six parter that only four issues of have have been published. One of which had to explain the new premise.

The story wasn't given a chance by the fans at all.

phunengames

01-04-2008, 04:03 PM

khuxford

01-04-2008, 04:08 PM

Very very true.

It should also be pointed out that the twins' brith was far from normal. To me Mr. Waid's point and story were on solid ground.

I'm not criticizing him for deciding to age them...but to just call it people indicating they don't want growth and change is ignoring the artificial-aging elephant in the room.

I'm sure the failure to deal with the rogues is more of an editorial-driven thing...since Didio had them getting sent off planet.

DBHughes

01-04-2008, 04:13 PM

I think the difference between the family reactions on Flash and Spider-man come down to the situations the central characters were in. With Flash, we had lost Wally for over a year; we weren't seeing him at all. Most everyone wanted Wally back and wanted some time with the guy, but we instead got new characters as the focus while Wally was relegated to a guest star in his own book. It was just too soon to do that; the fans wanted Wally, and we didn't *really* get that.

With Spidey, we've had Peter for years uninterrupted. As such, there's room for growth; there's no "getting to know you again" period. If Peter had been completely missing for over a year, and Peter's return had less focus on Peter with more of a focus on Mary Jane and 6 year old Spider-Girl...fans wouldn't be happy. I would bet the farm on it.

It all just had to do with timing, and I think Waid is right in that he didn't have a read on fandom or the market. DC's One Year Later initiative should have shown Waid that jumping into the middle of a new status quo doesn't work well; things need to build. After all, Wally didn't marry Linda in the issue where they met.

Aaron

01-04-2008, 04:13 PM

The "Wild Wests" storyline a six parter that only four issues of have have been published. One of which had to explain the new premise.

The story wasn't given a chance by the fans at all.

I don't necessarily agree with your logic, as it's pretty simple and broadbrush, but let's just say it is true...

If the fans are so ADD about stories, why do comic stories become more and more decompressed? Isn't that counterproductive? Especially when launching a new take on a concept... if the fans unilaterally thumb their noses during part 1, why would the writer/publisher think things would improve by part 6? Why would they even think fans would stick around that long?

Nah, this pretty much reinforces the overall stupidity of decompressed storytelling from a business perspective.

Vic Vega

01-04-2008, 04:35 PM

I don't necessarily agree with your logic, as it's pretty simple and broadbrush, but let's just say it is true...

If the fans are so ADD about stories, why do comic stories become more and more decompressed? Isn't that counterproductive? Especially when launching a new take on a concept... if the fans unilaterally thumb their noses during part 1, why would the writer/publisher think things would improve by part 6? Why would they even think fans would stick around that long?

Nah, this pretty much reinforces the overall stupidity of decompressed storytelling from a business perspective.

From what I've seen of the internet I'm being kind.

Besides, The Wild Wests isn't decompressed at all. Action type stuff happens in each issue. There's a rescue in the first couple of pages and an alien invasion rears its head before the book's half over.

It just wasn't what fans wanted to see RIGHTNOWTHISVERYSECOND. I could name you several Marvel books and a coulpe of D.C ones that are far slower in pace. The howl of outrage was due to nothing more or less that the concept of Wally having to share screen time with his kids.

If i were a publisher I'd probably pay no attention to the internet either (exept to do the OPPOSITE of whatever the prevailing wisdom of the day was) Countdown got bashed here mircilessly but it sold. I could name other example of net-hate not equalling loss of sales. New Avengers pops immdiately to mind.

spiderman196

01-04-2008, 04:38 PM

A Godfather comic book? Man I'm bored just typing that...:o

Pupasweet

01-04-2008, 04:44 PM

I think that many of us cannot help but compare MW's original stellar run on the Flash with his current run and IMO over these first few issues there is not much comparison. Progression/regression; call it what you will but the supporting cast should be just that. I think that the concern about Jai and Iris is that they are currently the stars of the book not Wally.

In a way its funny because referring to this whole "OMD/BND" controversy I do feel somewhat unable to relate to Wally now as a character when he refers to Jai as "son". He sounds to be about 50. I am a 39 year old with two kids. I wonder what the thirteen year old who reads this book thinks? The Flash right now kind of reads like a Johnny DC title and I know that MW has said that the DCU would get lighter and happier in the future and I wonder if the Jai/Iris dynamic is what he was referring to.

Samy Merchi

01-04-2008, 04:46 PM

I feel sorry for Waid. By all accounts, he's a wonderful person, and he's feeling all this crush just because he chose to work on the wrong projects.

He could probably use a little bit of Joe Quesada in him, "hahahaha the fans can say whatever they like I am doing what *I* like!" Quesada has the thick skin routine down. Waid could stand to develop a little more rhino skin, and I hope he does, because he doesn't deserve to feel as bad as I get the impression he does.

It's like Waid is the anti-Quesada. He listens and takes in everything he hears, and feels it deeply, whereas Joe lets it all skid off his back.

I am sad that Perez is leaving B&B but I always suspected he'd only be on board for the 12 first issues anyway, and I got the majority of that, so I'm not too disappointed. I wish we could've gotten those two issues more, but I'll live. And Ordway is a fine replacement, though I wouldn't mind seeing other artists take a turn either. This is a book that could well stand a rotating art team, IMO.

I hope Waid understands that nobody is 100% in touch with the fanbase. Of his recent projects, LOSH and Flash took a lot of flak for the reboot and for Acuna, but B&B has hardly taken any flak at all. So it's not like he's totally out of touch. Judging by those three, he's got a 33% success ratio, and I'm sure there are people who are more out of touch with mainstream tastes than that. So buck up there, Mark! Just because you can't accurately gauge every hit doesn't mean you should be sad! Nobody can have a 100% accuracy!

01-04-2008, 04:52 PM

A Godfather comic book? Man I'm bored just typing that...:o...Just wait until Waid has to reboot the series after he's plotted himself into a corner :p

NickEden

01-04-2008, 05:00 PM

Well I'll get the Waid trade when it comes out, but Tom Peyer? Was that the best they could do?

Thunarr

01-04-2008, 05:04 PM

For the most part, the ones who scream about hating something in a comic are a bunch of f**kwits who hide behind their anonymity, and really aren't worth listening to. Daniel Acuna's artwork was gorgeous. He was one of the reasons I was reading Flash, after having seen his stuff on Green Lantern.

T

phunengames

01-04-2008, 05:07 PM

I'm not criticizing him for deciding to age them...but to just call it people indicating they don't want growth and change is ignoring the artificial-aging elephant in the room.

I'm sure the failure to deal with the rogues is more of an editorial-driven thing...since Didio had them getting sent off planet.

And others seem to be saying there is no elephant. There is no issue with the mechanics of the twins’ aging. It made since and flowed with Flash Dogma. Reader got an idea of how the twins age from subsequent Flash stories. It seems like a non issue to me.

On a side note I move the ban the term or like terms “editorial – mandated”. It seem to only make since now when actual editors us it. Short of a creator owned self published book comics seem to have editorial input. Some have more than others. (Please note being a creator owned project will not stop some fans from telling a writer that they do not know the charter that they created) “Editorial – mandated” seem to be a catch all for why something is not like now. It meaning is lost now. Guess what Crisis on Infinite Earths to me is editorially mandated. 52 came out of an editorial need. Doctors do not use the words idiot, moron and imbecile anymore because they lost their medical “meaning” over time.

Consistent continuity comes from editorial mandates. Kryptonite has influence over Superman as long as writers and editors keep it that way. To me Editorial Mandate/Driven should not have the evil connotation that it has.

luckybucky

01-04-2008, 05:10 PM

Nah, this pretty much reinforces the overall stupidity of decompressed storytelling from a business perspective.

Yeah I thought much the same. I wonder how Flash might have run [ahem] had he structured it more like Blue Beetle or B&B (linked single issues), or at least JSA (shorter 2-4 issue arcs).

I LOVE continuing stories. I think it's great when the episodes pull you one month to the next. I like knowing how long they are in advance.

But they don't ALL have to be 6- to 12-part epics. How about 4 stories a year, three issues each (plus an annual, that has nothing to do with finishing a delayed chapter)?

But you've gotta feel for Waid: Birthright, Legion, Flash. All three stories I loved, and have been ripped by fans online. That's gotta hurt, because I know he put alot of thought into them!

Viva El Oso

01-04-2008, 05:21 PM

What about Bart that was a piece of junk story we need to get a new writer for The Flash I fear the worst it has been written in the book of Oa.

BillReed

01-04-2008, 05:30 PM

I completely agree with Mark Waid, and I'm very happy to see him telling it like it is.

Groovemaster

01-04-2008, 05:51 PM

It pains me to read Mark Waid's honest confusion about the internet community and how it got to him.

I can understand why this happens. The internet is not the place where opinions are voiced mildly or, even, appropriately. Don't get me wrong. I want people to keep giving their opinions and the internet is the perfect manner it can be done. But I would love to see the internet community not only give their opinion, but to do it in appropriate ways and to have a sort of basis for opinions. "This issue sucks" is inappropriate, "I do not like this issue" is appropriate but still does not tell us anything except the opinion, "this issue I did not enjoy because of the scene where the creative team made this character do that/they revealed this about her past and I don't agree that is true to the character/etc" is appropriate and does people that read it some good.

I have never read Flash, but I don't enjoy reading creators experiencing the darkest aspect of the internet message boards.

btjs

01-04-2008, 06:13 PM

Jai and Iris were the furthest thing from OMFG EDITORIAL MANDATE!!!111 Waid insisted on using them constructively and had to fight Didio, who Waid claimed wanted him to "drop a safe on them." Kill Wally's kids? I don't ____ing think so.

I thought it was a new take on what had become, frankly, a fine but tired book with Wally in the role. Nor do I think the kids overshadowed Wally. They were simply being intro'ed.

Kelson

01-04-2008, 07:12 PM

Definitely looking forward to more Potter's Field.

JLAJRC

01-04-2008, 08:14 PM

I like that Linda and Wally's kids are an active part of his Superhero life. Linda does way more then give Wally kind words and backrubs after fighting Captain Cold, which is what MJ was basically reduced to in Spidey. I also like that his kids are an active part, instead of just an excuse to either be put in danger or tossed to a babysitter (I'm looking at YOU, Fantastic 4).

DrNobody

01-04-2008, 08:29 PM

I actually like both Waid & Acuna's work, and have seen numerous posts on the DC messageboard that were negative causing me to not want to go there... I think Waid's work on the New Flash was actually a lot of fun.. Kind of like the Incredibles in comic form... And I see tons of negative feedback about Acuna's work, and I think it's a fresh way to see superheroes... I've loved his work on both the Uncle Sam & Green Lantern as well as the Flash... I dunno.. Maybe I'm just weird in my comic interests...

legionbear

01-04-2008, 08:47 PM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/Waid/Flash236.jpg" align="right">by Vaneta Rogers
. The same voices that are screaming that we gave Flash a wife and kids and family, because they say that's not what Flash is, are the same people who are screaming that they've broken up Mary Jane and Peter Parker. "How dare you take his family away!" I'm like, wait! Wait! What? Which way is it? So... growth and change good... or growth and change bad?

I don't think it was so much that folks want the children gone or for Wally not to grow as a man and a father, but that we don't give a rat's ass to have 80% of the issue devoted to the children when we've not seen much of the main character for over 13 months. I like that he has kids, but I don't want to see them MORE than I see Wally. Supporting cast should be used as support not the main focus of the first story we get after over a year away from the main character. I've been a die-hard Flash fan for over 25 years now, but I think this was the most disappointing story arc I've ever read. If you want to know exactly why: every issue I read now I have to think "Bart died so we could have this?" and not one issue has made me think it was worth the loss of Bart so far.

I almost always love Waid's work, but this direction for Flash was a huge mis-fire as was his Legion after the first year. As far as Acuna art is concerned, I enjoyed that aspect of the book. I don't know a single fan who was nearly as disappointed with the art as they were with the storyline.

All that said, my adoration for Waid's work has not diminished and I remain a loyal fan. Whatever direction he travels I'll follow his work and give each book it's shot to entertain me.

adohall

01-04-2008, 09:21 PM

Are we really in the minority? - we readers who liked Daniel Acuna's art and Mark Waid's Wild West arc? I loved it in fact. It brought me back to Flash for the first time since Geoff's run ended. I liked Jai and Iris and their level of involvement. I even liked the sea monsters - or at least seeing them repelled. I didn't think it seemed "decompressed" (slow?). I didn't have any issues at all. And I wasn't aware there was enough criticism or complaints to make Mark think twice about continuing.

If you're reading this Mark, I suggest - just go with your gut... or your heart. Did you enjoy the story? Were you happy with the characters and the pacing? I f your answer was anything like mine, you'd still be at the helm. And perhaps the silent majority feels likewise.

Somebody

01-04-2008, 09:42 PM

Wasn't Waid one of the four writers who wanted to take over Superman and mindwipe away his marraige to Lois? (I don't *think* it involved Neron, but who knows any more...)

dmudd123

01-04-2008, 10:34 PM

So......this is a great development/reveal to kick off '08!

Seems like fans are actually GETTING what they want...but yet STILL complain about everything when it's not what they want?!?!

Geez...I guess creators can't even tell a story now! Should creators start posting for scripts and story ideas online? Maybe that's the only way to satisfy us?

Waid returning to Flash was fine, because I will buy a Flash book unless I think it's god awful. Since I actually started buying Flash around 200 of Johns' run, and haven't missed an issue yet...well, I've been satisfied with the overall story...even if I didn't care for some of the writing.

Never had a problem with Bart being Flash, but for the overall story...it worked well. Now that it's done, and he's dead...people STILL gripe out it.

You got Wally back....you got rid of Bart....you got Waid back on the book.....

Yet now this is just a critical analysis of someone's writing being made to be more important that the overall story.

It's getting tiresome for me, because I buy over 200 bucks of comics a month (mostly DC)...yet it seems the entire online community can somehow speak for me on what I WANT!

DBHughes

01-05-2008, 12:30 AM

It's getting tiresome for me, because I buy over 200 bucks of comics a month (mostly DC)...yet it seems the entire online community can somehow speak for me on what I WANT!

But the online community is not really what spoke here; sales spoke. Sales of Waid's run dropped like a stone. In just four issues, Waid dropped to the low sales level that DC brought Waid in to fix; that's actually a faster sales drop than the Bart relaunch had. From DC's perspective, Waid's relaunch had to be viewed as a financial failure; and there's no real sign of the Waid sales free fall stopping yet. Waid's current run could end up selling *worse* than the troubled run before him.

Courtesy of The Beat (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/12/31/dc-month-to-month-sales-november-2007/):

44 - FLASH
11/2001: Flash #180 — 26,708*
11/2002: Flash #192 — 28,805*
11/2003: Flash #204 — 35,423
11/2004: Flash #216 — 43,618 [49,350]
11/2005: Flash #228 — 45,861
———————————-
11/2006: Flash: FMA #6 — 56,789 (- 7.8%)
12/2006: Flash: FMA #7 — 53,600 (- 5.6%)
01/2007: Flash: FMA #8 — 50,967 (- 4.9%)
02/2007: Flash: FMA #9 — 47,214 (- 7.4%)
03/2007: Flash: FMA #10 — 46,133 (- 2.3%)
04/2007: Flash: FMA #11 — 46,963 (+ 1.8%)
05/2007: Flash: FMA #12 — 47,809 (+ 1.8%)
06/2007: Flash: FMA #13 — 76,860 (+ 60.8%) [82,767]
07/2007: All Flash #1 — 78,955 (+ 2.7%)
08/2007: Flash #231 — 72,898 (- 7.7%)
09/2007: Flash #232 — 56,969 (- 21.9%)
10/2007: Flash #233 — 51,152 (- 10.2%)
11/2007: Flash #234 — 46,435 (- 9.2%)
—————-
6 months: - 2.9%
1 year : -18.2%
2 years : + 1.3%

Well, this isn’t working at all, is it?

There really shouldn’t be that much of a drop at this stage. Four issues into the relaunch, sales are already back where they were six months ago. This is the second Flash revamp in as many years that’s shaping up to be a massive failure.

On top of everything, writer Mark Waid, who served as a figurehead for the relaunch, is apparently leaving the book for good after issue #236. Expect the numbers to get ugly soon.

superheroNYC

01-05-2008, 12:41 AM

I'll miss George on Brave And The Bold. He and Mark are a great team and a great selling point to those intrested in something other then the Crisis mess DC is doing in it's books right now.

SuperheroNYC

Alan Coil

01-05-2008, 12:52 AM

It absolutely SUCKS that Perez will not finish his promised 12 issues. We were promised.

Brave and Bold is one of the more fun comics on the stands.

I liked the story of Flash's children, but the art not so much.

moshdaddy

01-05-2008, 02:38 AM

Reactions to Waid's interview:

First, I'd love for him to have addressed BOOM's late problems. I love the books, but he came there to a company that can't solicit/release properly and its something that needs to be fixed soon.

Hey E Meadow,

Basically what Mark and Publishing VP Tom Fassbender have done is cancel a whole slew of books and re-solicit them. This has let us stockpile the issues and make sure any outstanding lateness would not cascade the whole line. Books like 2 Guns, Hunter's Moon, and Dominion are all back on track.

There are still some outstanding issues, but the one of the reasons Mark and Tom were brought on were to address this exact issue.

As with any publishing concern, things will always crop up that are beyond our control, but you will see a marked improvement in scheduling in 2008.

Thanks,

Chip Mosher
Marketing and Sales Director
BOOM! Studios

Amoebas

01-05-2008, 09:25 AM

Filter03

01-05-2008, 02:31 PM

Wow, I was really disappointed to read this. I have really been enjoying The Flash. To me Wally is the Flash that I know, and seeing him grow in teh manner that he has is very fullfilling. I know characters like Superman and Batman can never really age, so it's nice to see guys like Wally and Nightwing who you can grow with.

Also reading the Flash made me go and pick up Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters. Hot damn if Acuna's art doesn't blow me away. His energy level that he brings out is palpable, while at the same time he draws fantastic facial expressions.

newfoundma

01-05-2008, 02:33 PM

Imo, it wasn't the artist - it was Waid. It's not that Wally has a family, it's that Waid made the book ABOUT the family. A shame he still doesn't get that simple point.
Also I don't know that violently killing Bart to go back to Wally can be called progress.

Ken B.

01-05-2008, 03:58 PM

Also I don't know that violently killing Bart to go back to Wally can be called progress.

Especially with little to no retribution to Bart's murderers and the whole thing seemingly dropping off the face of the earth.. "Oh look, they're on a planet for a few months only to have the JLA free them despite them killing a kid in cold blood"

And Inertia sits there in the Flash museum until plot device A happens to be free again.

Seriously, just kill one of them, at least. Please?

david r

01-05-2008, 10:00 PM

What saddens me is Mark Waid once said that DC Comics would have to "pry FLASH from his cold, dead fingers." Waid loved Wally West and was committed to this character longterm. And now, Mr. Waid cannot be bothered to stay on for a whole year of stories. I do not understand this change.

I was so excited about Mark Waid's return. I began buying Flash monthly for the 1st time, specifically because he was returning. And his love for Wally West and the Flash legacy I read in interviews, as well as the tpbs I have of his classic 90s run, made me so happy he returned. I feel almost a slap-in-the-face that Mark doesn't care enough to stay and build something. I know he doesn't owe me anything, but Wally West isn't just "some character" to Mark Waid's history. You could argue it was Wally West that began Waid's career. I am disappointed Mr. Waid's return is over so quickly. :(

Maurice M

01-06-2008, 06:22 AM

Fan reaction was bad on this Flash run? I loved it awwww. That makes me sad. I really loved this book with Waid/Acuna. People want Wally to be single? I don't get that. It's like Waid said, Flash is a book about legacy and family ties. I don't get why they'd want Wally so seperate from that. Isn't that what we got from the abysmal Bart book?

superboy072

01-06-2008, 04:53 PM

Mark, I like the family. People just like to complain more than compliment. Wally has grown steadily as a character and this is a step in the right direction.

Acuna's work is pretty, but everything reminds me of dream-sequences. His storytelling abilities clearly just need to be used differently when its decided what books he's on.

Don't regret this run, and keep an open mind to be back someday. People like to complain, but they can look back fondly once they see the grand scheme of things and forget what else was bugging them at the time.

Rubber Sled

01-06-2008, 08:41 PM

Well I'll get the Waid trade when it comes out, but Tom Peyer? Was that the best they could do?

No matter how many less-than-great comics Tom Peyer has written, he will ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt from me because of 25 perfect issues of Hourman, one of the best titles I've ever read.

Paul Rogan

01-06-2008, 09:23 PM

Waid staying + George leaving = me dropping Brave & Bold. Seriously, Perez's artwork was the only thing keeping me buying the book through this godawful Book of Destiny tripe.

Ah well, at least George has something else in the pipeline so it's not all bad.

AllenScribe

01-07-2008, 02:12 AM

If Mark's heart ain't in it, he should go. As far as the comparison to One More Day, there really is none. Peter hadn't been replaced as the main character in his own book and brought back from some unknown place with a family. Expectations for Wally's return were as high as they could possibly be.

With all his main villains MIA for the foreseeable future, it was almost a no-win scenario for Wally and Mark. This is all compounded by the fact that Flash was the most consistently well-written book on the shelves for years. That only makes the current problems look even worse by comparison.

ClayinCA

01-07-2008, 10:21 AM

It absolutely SUCKS that Perez will not finish his promised 12 issues. We were promised.

Yeah, but comics companies break promises all the time. I seem to remember being "promised" that Perez would go back to the Titans after he finished CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, that Perez would finish the Titans graphic novel with Marv Wolfman, and heaven knows what else...

No matter how many less-than-great comics Tom Peyer has written, he will ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt from me because of 25 perfect issues of Hourman, one of the best titles I've ever read.

Absolutely true.

Thephanboy

01-08-2008, 02:27 AM

i like waids stuff...but for some reason i havent been to hot about this run on flash. im excited about getting a new writer in to spicen it up a bit. i had no problem with flash: fastest man alive and liked bart as the flash and hope they can find a way to bring him back.

Lwnasidh

01-08-2008, 10:47 AM

And you know, I thought Wally was an exception to this because Wally was the one character in all of comics that we've been able to watch grow up with some consistency, without any sort of weird continuity blips or reboots of any sizeable nature...

And therein lies the problem I have with the book... The character has grown and evolved naturally, and all of the sudden the decision is made to age the kids unnaturally. I wanted to see Linda and Wally as parents grow smoothly as well... this weird stuff with the kids is just... annoying.