Angel # 1: After the Fall (Spoilers)

[Xeero]

Wow, just.... WOW!!! This was a fun and amazing read!

First off, I'm a big Angel fan. I claim the series is my favorite live-action TV show next to Xena and Hercules. Hell, to me, Angel beats Buffy out of the water. Out of the damn ocean! So imagine my excite when news broke that the continuation of Angel was going to be continued in comics, and it was going to be canon with Joss Whedon himself co-plotting. Hyped doesn't even define how I felt.

So I waited impatiently for this darn issue and I say damn it was glorious! Lynch does a great job writing this. And I'm impressed as I've never read any of his other comics, but I do hear great things. And the art, I must admit, when I opened the book I didn't like the art. But as I got more into the story, the art really grew on me and I'm sure I'll love it more as the series progresses.

Now, I'm not one to write spoilers in anything as I want people to read the book and be surprised on their own. But I placed a spoiler warning for the people who come later on to discuss it, so don't tear my head off. But I will say this... NINA!!!!!!!! :D

But yes, buy this darn comic if you're a Whedon fan, if you're an Angel fan, if you're bored of Buffy and lost faith in the Buffy-verse, if you hate Whedon, if anything!! Buy it and love it or else!!! :mad:

[edhopper]

I was going to buy this. Then I looked through it at my comic shop and just put it back. The art was that bad. It was so far below the level of a professional that I've seen guys at comic cons giving away their self-published books with better art. I mean they could have just gone to any portfolio review at a convention and picked up an artist who could do a better job.
With all the underemployed comic artist out there, why would they let a high profile property like this have art that's simply atrocious. Maybe they spent too much on the licensing to pay for a decent artist.
For $4 I expect some degree of professional art. It may be written well, but I had to pass.

[Kerny]

I DEMAND SPOILERS.............................NOW GIMME GIMME GIMMIE

[Thalya]

My heart broke reading this... Angel was easily my favorite show of all time and the things this issue does... Ever since Buffy made the move to UPN and then continued into its comic, it's felt flippant and unsubstantial in comparison to Angel, and it's continued that path now that both are in comics. Angel Season 6 just blows it out of the water.

I do think the complaints about the art are valid, but for all the important moments it's clear enough and it packs a punch.

And Xeero, skip Nina. GWEN!!!!! And think if she meets .... later.

[Xeero]

And Xeero, skip Nina. GWEN!!!!! And think if she meets .... later.

Holy crap!! That didn't even come to mind! :eek:

[CarbonCopy11]

I liked it enough, although I'd rather have Gunn completely dead or Wes completely dead than vamped or bound to Wolfram & Heart.

Annoyed that Nina is still around...maybe she will die soon, or sleep with Connor like most of Angel's lovers. LOVED seeing Gwen though!!

Anyone else hoping IDW and Dark Horse team up for the long-awaited Buffy/Angel crossover/reunion?! :)

[Xeero]

Anyone else hoping IDW and Dark Horse team up for the long-awaited Buffy/Angel crossover/reunion?! :)

Honestly, not really, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't check it out.

[Liliaeth]

Wow, just.... WOW!!! This was a fun and amazing read!

First off, I'm a big Angel fan. I claim the series is my favorite live-action TV show next to Xena and Hercules. Hell, to me, Angel beats Buffy out of the water. Out of the damn ocean! So imagine my excite when news broke that the continuation of Angel was going to be continued in comics, and it was going to be canon with Joss Whedon himself co-plotting. Hyped doesn't even define how I felt.

So I waited impatiently for this darn issue and I say damn it was glorious! Lynch does a great job writing this. And I'm impressed as I've never read any of his other comics, but I do hear great things. And the art, I must admit, when I opened the book I didn't like the art. But as I got more into the story, the art really grew on me and I'm sure I'll love it more as the series progresses.

Now, I'm not one to write spoilers in anything as I want people to read the book and be surprised on their own. But I placed a spoiler warning for the people who come later on to discuss it, so don't tear my head off. But I will say this... NINA!!!!!!!! :D

But yes, buy this darn comic if you're a Whedon fan, if you're an Angel fan, if you're bored of Buffy and lost faith in the Buffy-verse, if you hate Whedon, if anything!! Buy it and love it or else!!! :mad:


This was much better than Buffy s8, at least it had the spirit of the show it's based on.

[Liliaeth]

Honestly, not really, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't check it out.


Personally I have no interest in a Buffy/Angel reunion, except maybe for Buffy to realize that Angel never loved her half as much as she did him, and that she was just a Darla substitute for him. Love Buffy, but I'd love for her to finally realize this.

I'd be much more interested in seeing a Buffy/Spike reunion, even if only to know if Buffy knew that Spike was alive again or not.

[eddie3429]

I picked it. i've been saying for months Gunn would be all vampy vamp. I gotta say i didn't think art was bad but you could realy pick the actors out of them Weasly i wasn't confident it was him till a word ballon confirmed it. and that the characters not based on actors look a little different. Story was great though. Los Angeles is Hell....and now theres demons there too.

except maybe for Buffy to realize that Angel never loved her half as much as she did him, and that she was just a Darla substitute for him. Love Buffy, but I'd love for her to finally realize this.

really? i always saw it the complete oppisite. Angel loved buffy but Buffy was in her Oh my first love stage. Thats why angel left couse he wasn't getting the same back. he also had a lot hard time moving on. Funny how people can look at the same thing and see two completly different things

[Xanrn]

Yeah Angel never loved Darla, Angelus loved Darla.

Also please, can just as easily say Spike doesn't love Buffy just sees her as something Angel had and he wants or a Drusilla replacement..

Gunn as a Vamp well sheesh.

But Wesley as a Ghost bound to WRH, I mean my god come up with something original the first Fan Fics that were post Season 5 had that idea.

Yeah could have used a better Artist, because thats what you get for selling licenses to the lesser companies.

I mean my god could their be a better artist for Angel than Yennil Yu.

[CarbonCopy11]

really? i always saw it the complete oppisite. Angel loved buffy but Buffy was in her Oh my first love stage. Thats why angel left couse he wasn't getting the same back. he also had a lot hard time moving on. Funny how people can look at the same thing and see two completly different things

Buffy and Angel have a pure, true love and are soulmates. They do not belong with anyone else but each other. Their love is epic, dynamic, and romantic. Eventually, years from now, Buffy and Angel will be able to be together, when he fulls the prophecy and becomes human again. Until then, they must be kept apart.

[Thalya]

Buffy and Angel have a pure, true love and are soulmates. They do not belong with anyone else but each other. Their love is epic, dynamic, and romantic. Eventually, years from now, Buffy and Angel will be able to be together, when he fulls the prophecy and becomes human again. Until then, they must be kept apart.

Oh dear lord... And this is why I hope Spike fulfills the prophecy.

[BillReed]

Might wait for the trade on this... I dunno if I can support another four-bucks-an-issue series.

[CarbonCopy11]

Oh dear lord... And this is why I hope Spike fulfills the prophecy.

Spike needs to be staked ASAP. I hate him.

[The Skoot]

Buffy and Angel have a pure, true love and are soulmates. They do not belong with anyone else but each other. Their love is epic, dynamic, and romantic. Eventually, years from now, Buffy and Angel will be able to be together, when he fulls the prophecy and becomes human again. Until then, they must be kept apart.

Angel can't fulfill the prophecy anymore. He signed away his chance to it in the final episode.

[nietoperz]

Spike needs to be staked ASAP. I hate him.

That's just crazy talk! :eek:

[Xeero]

Hmm, 16 replies and no Derf.

[BillReed]

Angel can't fulfill the prophecy anymore. He signed away his chance to it in the final episode.

It's up to fan interpretation, really. He signed "Angel." We all know his name is really "Liam." And anyway, a contract from hell wouldn't stop the Powers That Be anyway.

But the point of the show was that the shanshu prophecy meant nothing; it's the journey that's everything.

[Derf]

I've been waiting for this for a long time and it surpassed my already high expectations based on Whedon's involvement and Lynch's previous work on Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets.

Here are a few of my thoughts;

Personally I liked the art and thought Urru captured the characters well and the demons looked pretty cool as well.

Lynch really captured Angel well epecially his dry wit through dialogue and his inner monologue.

I like the idea of the dragon working with Angel cant wait for the First Night issue to see how that came about.

They way that Wesley was brought back was something I thought might happen based on what happened to Holland Manners in Season 2 and Lilah at the end of Season 4.

Those of us who still obssessively read all Angel news already knew that Gunn was intended to be a Vampire if Season 6 had happened on TV and it's great to see they kept that as I think it has a lot of possibilities.

Not sure about the return of Nina but it was great to see Gwen and Connor are still around as they are to of my favourite characters though for very different reasons.

[Derf]

Hmm, 16 replies and no Derf.

It seems I have a reputation. :D

[WineLoverBub]

For $4 I expect some degree of professional art. It may be written well, but I had to pass.

Same here. I'll just continue buying Buffy and skip Angel. I wasn't that big of an Angel fan (TV show) anyways.

[CarbonCopy11]

That's just crazy talk! :eek:

No it's not. Spike is one of Joss Whedon's worst creations. I hate how he tries to steal everything that belongs to Angel (Buffy, the prophecy, and so on). Spike's annoying and barbaric and should've stayed dead after "Chosen". At least he's stuck in the Angel series and not polluting the Buffy one with his presence.

I don't know how anyone can like Spike when HE TRIED TO RAPE BUFFY!

[eddie3429]

I don't know how anyone can like Spike when HE TRIED TO RAPE BUFFY!
lupin in harry potter raped a girl and people liked him. you can have characters do bad things and still like them.

[CarbonCopy11]

lupin in harry potter raped a girl and people liked him. you can have characters do bad things and still like them.

Not when it comes to rape.

[Xeero]

Not sure about the return of Nina but it was great to see Gwen and Harmony are still around as they are to of my favourite characters though for very different reasons.

....Where did you see Harmony? :confused:

[Nick Graham]

....Where did you see Harmony? :confused:

Yeah, I didn't see Harmony either, but that could be the art. Overall I loved this issue. I had not read much about it leading up to the release, so I went into it totally pure and was really surprised with how it went. I was expecting a direct continuation of the series finale, and instead they've really flipped things on their head. This is something they never could have pulled off on a network TV budget (well, pulled of WELL), and I'm happy they took advantage of the medium and went in the gonzo new direction. My only hesitation is the letter from the editor that mentions it as a "maxi-series, possibly more". I really feel it needs to be a finite story, just like a season of the show, and now something they string out for years after Whedon is no longer plotting the story.

[CarbonCopy11]

Yeah, I didn't see Harmony either, but that could be the art. Overall I loved this issue. I had not read much about it leading up to the release, so I went into it totally pure and was really surprised with how it went. I was expecting a direct continuation of the series finale, and instead they've really flipped things on their head. This is something they never could have pulled off on a network TV budget (well, pulled of WELL), and I'm happy they took advantage of the medium and went in the gonzo new direction. My only hesitation is the letter from the editor that mentions it as a "maxi-series, possibly more". I really feel it needs to be a finite story, just like a season of the show, and now something they string out for years after Whedon is no longer plotting the story.

"Possibly more" could be referring to Season Seven...

[FrenchDoctor]

It's up to fan interpretation, really. He signed "Angel." We all know his name is really "Liam." And anyway, a contract from hell wouldn't stop the Powers That Be anyway.

But the point of the show was that the shanshu prophecy meant nothing; it's the journey that's everything.

My personal theory on signing away the Shansu? We see Angel's signature in that ep, and it's a mess, not even readable. Yet in that same episode, when Angel meets up with Connor in the coffee shop, he says that he has beautiful penmanship. Coincidence? I say thee nay.

[God-Man]

I liked this issue, but I felt the story was rushed a bit. Lynch tried to pack in a lot in this one issue. It was great to see mainstays like Gunn and Wesley, and newer characters like Gwen and Nina. There's a lot of ground to cover, and I'm looking foward to seeing all the piece put together.

[eddie3429]

Not when it comes to rape.
Hey i am in no way advocating rape. But in a FICTIONAL story you can have a character comit horrible acts and still come off likable.

[Nobody]

I really wasn't big on the art. I don't demand photo realism, especially when it comes to likenesses, but a little clarity wouldn't be too bad. The Wesley thing... I didn't have a clue who that was when he first showed up until the demon called him by name, panels later. For a minute I thought it was the Adam Baldwin character from the end of S5. But I did enjoy the story and the developments. And the "voices" of all the characters were spot on. I'm usually not a big fan of tv or movie adaptations, but this was good stuff. Though I may need to stop buying it and wait for the trade on price alone.

[theNameless]

My personal theory on signing away the Shansu? We see Angel's signature in that ep, and it's a mess, not even readable. Yet in that same episode, when Angel meets up with Connor in the coffee shop, he says that he has beautiful penmanship. Coincidence? I say thee nay.

There are no semantics with the senior partners. His blood, paper (likely made out of baby flesh) and the shanshu is signed away. Though since he's stuck in hell now I doubt it truly makes a difference. The point of it was indeed the Journey. Him doing the right thing not because of the possible reward but because he's a force of good now.

[GotReekstah?]

Story was good, but the art was painful to get through. :(

[Dalarsco2]

Not when it comes to rape.
He didn't have a soul then. Now he does.

[CarbonCopy11]

He didn't have a soul then. Now he does.

That's no excuse. And that just further proves Spike's just a lame Angel ripoff anyway.

[Ret]

Might wait for the trade on this... I dunno if I can support another four-bucks-an-issue series.

Agreed. I'd like to know Whedon's endorsed Post S5 stuff but not at this price.

[eddie3429]

Agreed. I'd like to know Whedon's endorsed Post S5 stuff but not at this price.
i payed $8 for it and i an't complaining. do you really need to know whedons imput. if its good its good no matter who did it. he didn't write every episode of the tv series. as long as he's overseeing i feel confident

[GotReekstah?]

That's no excuse. And that just further proves Spike's just a lame Angel ripoff anyway.
I'm sure Angel has raped plenty of women in his time as Angelus, pre-soul. So.. there's really no argument with the rape thing.

And while Spike may come off as a ripoff, in that he's a vampire with a soul, and he had a thing with Buffy.. the two characters couldn't be more different.

[nietoperz]

No it's not. Spike is one of Joss Whedon's worst creations. I hate how he tries to steal everything that belongs to Angel (Buffy, the prophecy, and so on). Spike's annoying and barbaric and should've stayed dead after "Chosen". At least he's stuck in the Angel series and not polluting the Buffy one with his presence.

I don't know how anyone can like Spike when HE TRIED TO RAPE BUFFY!

I've had this precise same conversation with you before, ColourMan.

[R.McKegan]

Big Angel fan, but really didn't like this issue. The art wasn't great, but the writing was worse. The story felt really cluttered and unfocused and the laughs were very flat.

I've enjoyed the prior Angel/Spike miniseries from the same company. I'll give the next issue a shot but so far, this isn't anything special.

[GotReekstah?]

Big Angel fan, but really didn't like this issue. The art wasn't great, but the writing was worse. The story felt really cluttered and unfocused and the laughs were very flat.

I've enjoyed the prior Angel/Spike miniseries from the same company. I'll give the next issue a shot but so far, this isn't anything special.
I think the art is really taking away from the writing.

The story is good, but the cluttered mess on every page just ruins it completely.

[RoiVampire]

the art isn't the problem here, it's the coloring that makes it all weird

still loved the book though

[Derf]

....Where did you see Harmony? :confused:

I actually have no idea why i posted Harmony when I meant Connor. :o

[Switch625]

I'm very excited about this book. I thought the twist with the dragon was cute. Gunn as a vampire? Predictable. I was really hoping they'd come up with something a little more unique for Charles. Aren't there other demons out there besides vampires and werewolves that can turn a human into a demon/human hybrid? And Wesley? I'm rather disappointed that he's still bound to Wolfram & Hart. I rather liked the idea of him and Fred happy and together in the afterlife. Sure, Joss likes his characters to suffer, but this time, I felt those two really deserved it. In the preview art a month or so ago, I thought the blonde with Connor and Gwen was Harmony, but I'm very relieved that it's Nina.

[GotReekstah?]

I actually have no idea why i posted Harmony when I meant Connor. :o
It's an easy mistake. They both have vaginas.

[GotReekstah?]

I'm very excited about this book. I thought the twist with the dragon was cute. Gunn as a vampire? Predictable. I was really hoping they'd come up with something a little more unique for Charles.
I would hope it's predictable, since it was pretty common knowledge that had there been a Season 6, that was what Joss had planned for him! :p

And, well.. with Joss onboard this book, that's exactly what we get!

Also.. what makes it special for Gunn is his history with vampires.

It's tragic. He grew up fighting them, and even had to kill his own sister when she turned.. now he is one himself.

[RoiVampire]

It's tragic. He grew up fighting them, and even had to kill his own sister when she turned.. now he is one himself.

I'm wondering if he is actually a vampire or if he's in some private hell or something, i mean all bets are off now that LA has been sucked into hell

[KyleV]

I would hope it's predictable, since it was pretty common knowledge that had there been a Season 6, that was what Joss had planned for him!

Two people have stated this. I doubt it. In fact, I believe it was originally introduced by Lynch somewhere online.

Please provide proof of this being Whedon's intent...ever.

For that matter, Whedon's original intent for season six would have had a Wesley that didn't die. He said in an interview he only killed Wesley because he knew it was over.

In other words, this ISN'T the season six we would have seen. There's a great interview with David Fury on what that would have been. It's still floating around online, if anyone wants to look for it.

I'm glad people are enjoying it and more power to them. But for me, this feels like fanwank -- just like Buffy season eight.

I'm content with my DVDs.

[GotReekstah?]

Two people have stated this. I doubt it. In fact, I believe it was originally introduced by Lynch somewhere online.

Please provide proof of this being Whedon's intent...ever.

For that matter, Whedon's original intent for season six would have had a Wesley that didn't die. He said in an interview he only killed Wesley because he knew it was over.

In other words, this ISN'T the season six we would have seen. There's a great interview with David Fury on what that would have been. It's still floating around online, if anyone wants to look for it.

I'm glad people are enjoying it and more power to them. But for me, this feels like fanwank -- just like Buffy season eight.

I'm content with my DVDs.
It's not what season 6 would originally have been like, no, but with Joss on board, some of those ideas are finding their way to this.


In an article posted on IGN.com, Amy Acker, who played Fred and Illyria, states that, had the rumored TV films about the Buffy/Angelverse been made, Gunn would have become a vampire and would have become a central villain [1].

[1] http://tv.ign.com/articles/712/712641p1.html

Believe what you will, and enjoy what you will. But with Whedon backing this book, it's canon.

[CYOTI]

And I believe the actor for Gunn also said that he wanted that direction for his character.

[KyleV]

Believe what you will, and enjoy what you will. But with Whedon backing this book, it's canon.


No, it really isn't.

I appreciate that Joss is involved. I do. But let's look at it like this:

1) Had there been a season six planned, Wesley never would have died. Sure, he's been brought back, but this was never the storyline intended for him. It changed because the show was cancelled.

2) Angel was a TV show. Different medium's imply different storytelling.

3) Brian Lynch never wrote for the show and, had it continued those years ago, never would have gotten the chance.

4) Angel had one of the greatest finale's in TV.

5) There will be no re-issue of the "Angel: The Complete Series" box set with the comic book in it, because the comic book is something completely different.

Had the show continued, we surely would have gotten something different. THAT would be canon. This is a comic book spin-off of a TV show.

[GotReekstah?]

No, it really isn't.

I appreciate that Joss is involved. I do. But let's look at it like this:

1) Had there been a season six planned, Wesley never would have died. Sure, he's been brought back, but this was never the storyline intended for him. It changed because the show was cancelled.

2) Angel was a TV show. Different medium's imply different storytelling.

3) Brian Lynch never wrote for the show and, had it continued those years ago, never would have gotten the chance.

4) Angel had one of the greatest finale's in TV.

5) There will be no re-issue of the "Angel: The Complete Series" box set with the comic book in it, because the comic book is something completely different.

Had the show continued, we surely would have gotten something different. THAT would be canon. This is a comic book spin-off of a TV show.
Good lord, you're thick headed about this.

Like I said, believe what you want to believe, but that doesn't make you right.

NRAMA: With the involvement of Joss Whedon, this is the canoncial follow-up to the five seasons of the television series, right?

BL: Yes, it certainly is. Everything that happens in these pages officially happens to these characters. It's pretty exciting and kind of daunting. But the script for issue 1 is ready and the first five or six issues or so are very tightly planned out and I must say, it's a fine continuation. I think people will be pleased. And shocked. And hurt. And then pleased again. But a little hurt. But mostly excited. And a little sleepy. Because man, they stayed up too late last night.

And I don't see a re-issue of Buffy: The Complete Series with the comic in it, either. Must not be canon. :rolleyes:

You can certainly have your opinions on the show, and you can even disregard it's relevance to the Angel mythos. But the fact remains - it is in canon.

[Clem]

The thing we have to remember about Gunn is - he's dead. His soul went poof, off into the floaty afterlife. Now theres some scuzzy demon wearing his body like a suit. The Whedonverse lets us be absolutely decisive on the matter - that ain't him anymore.

Now it's just a question of who did the deed. Did Angel do it? Did Spike? Some random vamp in the attack ala Harmony? Was he already turning after his attack on the Senator's office?

I'll miss ya Charley Boy.

[God-Man]

The thing we have to remember about Gunn is - he's dead. His soul went poof, off into the floaty afterlife. Now theres some scuzzy demon wearing his body like a suit. The Whedonverse lets us be absolutely decisive on the matter - that ain't him anymore.

Now it's just a question of who did the deed. Did Angel do it? Did Spike? Some random vamp in the attack ala Harmony? Was he already turning after his attack on the Senator's office?

I'll miss ya Charley Boy.

My first thought was that Angel turned him to keep him alive.

[Derf]

For that matter, Whedon's original intent for season six would have had a Wesley that didn't die. He said in an interview he only killed Wesley because he knew it was over.

In other words, this ISN'T the season six we would have seen. There's a great interview with David Fury on what that would have been. It's still floating around online, if anyone wants to look for it.

And Whedon's original intent was to have Oz stay as a main character, to have Tara return in Season 7 of Buffy, to have Cordelia be the big bad in Season 4 of Angel. None of these happened due to outside factors so does that mean what followed isn't canon either.

[Clem]

My first thought was that Angel turned him to keep him alive.

It's possible. But i'd like to think Angel didn't do it, having learned from his recent experience with the British sailor he turned. Sure he's keeping them "alive" in the short term, but you're really f*cking them over in every other regard. Especially with a guy like Gunn who spent his entire life fighting vamps and even had to dust his sister.

I think Spike did it. Thats why he's not around at the moment. Angel got pissed off that another of his friends died and kicked him to the curb.

By the by, how would this be for a sig...

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/clements_01/teamgunn.jpg

[God-Man]

It's possible. But i'd like to think Angel didn't do it, having learned from his recent experience with the British sailor he turned. Sure he's keeping them "alive" in the short term, but you're really f*cking them over in every other regard. Especially with a guy like Gunn who spent his entire life fighting vamps and even had to dust his sister.

I think Spike did it. Thats why he's not around at the moment. Angel got pissed off that another of his friends died and kicked him to the curb.

By the by, how would this be for a sig...

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/clements_01/TGUNN.jpg

LMAO, I love it!

And you're right about the sailor. I had forgotten about that. But why would Spike do it? To save him, or to ____ with Angel? Maybe Spike was willing to keep him alive at the expense of his soul unlike Angel.

[Clem]

LMAO, I love it!

And you're right about the sailor. I had forgotten about that. But why would Spike do it? To save him, or to ____ with Angel? Maybe Spike was willing to keep him alive at the expense of his soul unlike Angel.

I don't think he'd have done it to f*ck with Angel. Spike was close friends with dearly departed Charles, so in some twisted way he probably thought he was saving him.

The thought process was probably something like "Vamp now, ensoul later". Only LA got sucked into Hell and they're completely cut off from any mystic that could help him.

[nolanjwerner]

J August Richards said that Gunn was going to become a vampire if the show continued.

[weaselwelch]

I loved this issue. I also had no problem with the art. I knew that it Wesley the moment I saw him.

And I do agree with everyone that says this is canon. It really doesn't matter what Whedon did plan or didn't plan if this series and Buffy had continued. It's what he is writing, plotting and approving what other writers do now that counts.

I look forward to issue 2.

[eddie3429]

I loved this issue. I also had no problem with the art. I knew that it Wesley the moment I saw him.

And I do agree with everyone that says this is canon. It really doesn't matter what Whedon did plan or didn't plan if this series and Buffy had continued. It's what he is writing, plotting and approving what other writers do now that counts.

I look forward to issue 2.
yeah you got it right. besides if the show went on they wouldn't have ended the latter episodes like they did, so the story would be different anyway. what is...is

[E-MAC]

Sounds interesting but is Spike gonna show up soon?, he's by far the best character in the whole Buffy verse IMO and I would probably pick this up if he plays a big roll in it.

[eddie3429]

Sounds interesting but is Spike gonna show up soon?, he's by far the best character in the whole Buffy verse IMO and I would probably pick this up if he plays a big roll in it.
he comes in next issue. i'm guessing he'll be big part

[Doombug]

he comes in next issue. i'm guessing he'll be big part
I think it can pretty much be confirmed.

It will be interesting to see if we hear from Lorne at all. I'm sure Illyria is currently searching hell for spike.

[Clem]

Small hypothetical - when they kill all these demons, considering they're already in Hell, where do they go?

[P.D.H]

lupin in harry potter raped a girl and people liked him. you can have characters do bad things and still like them.
He did? I don't remember that.

I get your point, though. The thing to keep in mind is that Spike was a soulless vampire when the attempted rape happened and can't be held accountable for it any more than Angel can be held accountable for the things he did as Angelus. Even if Angelus didn't rape anyone (which I find hard to believe) we know for a fact that he did equal and worse. What he did to Dru - torturing her into madness and then turning her - was worse than rape, for instance.

[RandomMcName]

Even if Angelus didn't rape anyone (which I find hard to believe) we know for a fact that he did equal and worse.


Plus, when they had him locked up in the basement in Season 4, he directly mentioned being willing to rape Fred.


http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/angel_tran_78.shtml


ANGELUS
(on cam)
You know, I had a bit of an Irish brogue back in the day. If
you like, I can use it on you when I rape you to death.
Or—

[nolanjwerner]

Plus, when they had him locked up in the basement in Season 4, he directly mentioned being willing to rape Fred.


http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/angel_tran_78.shtml


ANGELUS
(on cam)
You know, I had a bit of an Irish brogue back in the day. If
you like, I can use it on you when I rape you to death.
Or—

That was Angelus not Angel.

Two different people.

[eddie3429]

He did? I don't remember that.


its a british film called "Naked" if your over 18 i suggest you watch it. it starts with him (the actor who playd lupin Thelewis or whatever) rapeing a girl and then follows this guy as he walks the streets that night. he is a horrible person but you can't help but like him by the end of the film

[ZeoVGM]

No, it really isn't.

Sorry dude, but you're wrong. This is canon. Fact. Not arguable.

Joss says it's canon, which makes it canon. You not WANTING it to be doesn't change that.

[GotReekstah?]

That was Angelus not Angel.

Two different people.
I don't see how it's different from Spike. Both did bad things pre-soul. Both reformed when they got their souls. Difference is, Spike fought for his soul, and did it out of love. Angel's soul was a curse.

[GotReekstah?]

Sorry dude, but you're wrong. This is canon. Fact. Not arguable.

Joss says it's canon, which makes it canon. You not WANTING it to be doesn't change that.
Notice how he hasn't shown up in the thread since he was proven flat-out wrong? :p

[nolanjwerner]

I don't see how it's different from Spike. Both did bad things pre-soul. Both reformed when they got their souls. Difference is, Spike fought for his soul, and did it out of love. Angel's soul was a curse.

I suppose the difference is that Spike acted the exact same way pre and post soul. he never really felt the tiniest bit of guilt over what he did (and the things he did were every bit as bad as the things Angelus did).

But he doesn't have to worry every day that he will end up losing his soul.

So...question...in the two times Angelus lost his soul and got resouled, why didn't anyone bother to lift the curse?

[Derf]

I suppose the difference is that Spike acted the exact same way pre and post soul. he never really felt the tiniest bit of guilt over what he did (and the things he did were every bit as bad as the things Angelus did).

Of course he felt guilty he just didn't let his guilt overtake his life like Angel did.

[nolanjwerner]

Of course he felt guilty he just didn't let his guilt overtake his life like Angel did.

He went crazy for the first few episodes of S7 but is there anywhere where he actually expressed guilt over what he did?

[GotReekstah?]

He went crazy for the first few episodes of S7 but is there anywhere where he actually expressed guilt over what he did?
Does he have to express it outwardly in order to feel it? Their characters are completely different. Spike's not one to do that.

[God-Man]

Does he have to express it outwardly in order to feel it? Their characters are completely different. Spike's not one to do that.

True, but I do think that Spike felt guilt early on in Season 7. It wasn't until "Lies My Parents Told Me" that Spike got over it and became himself again. He basically said "____ it, I did what I did and I won't apologize for it."

[nietoperz]

I don't think that either Angel or Spike will have vamped Gunn. Also, Lorne will be appearing after the first story arc.

[Crump's Brother]

But it was fun to see the gang back together.

Nina licking some girl's face? Look, I know she blames it on the moon or whatever, but that didn't feel right to me. Connor? Snooze. Thought we were done with that whole thing. And why am I blanking on who the hell Gwen is? Can someone fill me in, please?

Otherwise, fun stuff. Loved the dragon, loved all things Angel. Loved that Gunn is a vampire. Thought the art was fun until about halfway through when I couldn't tell any characters apart in the Connor camp. Gewn looks like Cordelia, Nina could be Harmony. Who were those people that were saved? They just got lost to me in the art. In fact, I had no idea that was supposed to be Gunn (where was his scar?) in that last panel until I read it a second time. Kinda muddy.

But yeah, four freakin' bucks? No way I will continue with this in single issue form. Where are Illyria and Harmony?

[nietoperz]

Gwen Raiden is the electricity-powered cat burglar from season four.

[Crump's Brother]

Gwen Raiden is the electricity-powered cat burglar from season four.

I'm still blanking but thanks. She can teleport?

[nietoperz]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e5/Gwen_Raiden2.jpg

[Crump's Brother]

Ohhhh yeah. Thanks, nieto.

[Tigerhawk]

I want to see Ilyria kicking ass!:D :p

[Xeero]

First read, I also didn't see that the vamp at the end was Gunn as I didn't see the scar on his eye. I was looking at the last page thinking, "Okay... why is this the cliffhanger and a splash page? Is that suppose to be Gunn or another uber-vamp or someone who looks like Master?" Then I looked at his jacket and went back to see Gunn was wearing the same exact jacket.

But yeah, if he had the scar on his face, it would have been easier to see that he was Gunn.

[CarbonCopy11]

What's interesting about Angel in hell is that it prevents any pesky Buffy/Angel (Dark Horse/IDW) crossovers from occurring, allowing both comics to run simultaneously without necessarily stepping on each others' toes.

[Doombug]

I suppose the difference is that Spike acted the exact same way pre and post soul. he never really felt the tiniest bit of guilt over what he did (and the things he did were every bit as bad as the things Angelus did).

But he doesn't have to worry every day that he will end up losing his soul.

So...question...in the two times Angelus lost his soul and got resouled, why didn't anyone bother to lift the curse?
Did we watch the same first half of Buffy Season 7? Spike was overrun by the guilt of his whole life.

[HNutz]

First read, I also didn't see that the vamp at the end was Gunn as I didn't see the scar on his eye. I was looking at the last page thinking, "Okay... why is this the cliffhanger and a splash page? Is that suppose to be Gunn or another uber-vamp or someone who looks like Master?" Then I looked at his jacket and went back to see Gunn was wearing the same exact jacket.

But yeah, if he had the scar on his face, it would have been easier to see that he was Gunn.

Yeah, I had trouble too. I had to depend on the wardrobe to figure out who it was.

Wonder who did it? I really doubt it was Angel... don't think it was Spike... maybe the vamps he attacked beforehand?

I was thinking that Connor was just protecting the humans... but what was that with the folks seeing demons?

And how are folks expecting to see Wes tied to Wolfram & Hart? Something I missed along the way?

Overall, glad I found it... but I wish the artwork was clearer. Looking forward to the rest!

[God-Man]

And how are folks expecting to see Wes tied to Wolfram & Hart? Something I missed along the way?

When Lila died back in Season 4, she came back as a ghost, still working for Wolfram and Hart. Her contract with the lawfirm extended into the afterlife. The same goes for Wes since he was an employee of W&H.

[jediracer]

I loved it. Thought it was handled well. Can't wait to read more. Very exciting.

[Xeero]

I was thinking that Connor was just protecting the humans... but what was that with the folks seeing demons?


Well, in both Buffy and Angel, not all demons were evil. Some were cool friendly characters.

[avengingtitan]

Yeah Angel never loved Darla, Angelus loved Darla.

Also please, can just as easily say Spike doesn't love Buffy just sees her as something Angel had and he wants or a Drusilla replacement..

Gunn as a Vamp well sheesh.

But Wesley as a Ghost bound to WRH, I mean my god come up with something original the first Fan Fics that were post Season 5 had that idea.

Yeah could have used a better Artist, because thats what you get for selling licenses to the lesser companies.

I mean my god could their be a better artist for Angel than Yennil Yu.
To be fair when they were gonna do the tv movies Gunn was supposed to become a vamp and then be one of the big bads. I'm still shocked though.

I like that Wes is now bound to WF&H but who's saying its really Wes. It could just be a construct of Wes like that creepy little girl or the Panther.


And I guess I was right about why there is no Buffy presence. LA literally got sucked into hell.

[Clem]

I was kinda hoping they might take another path with Gunn.

Because he was an employee of W&H his soul could be bound to them like the others, continuing to function as their conduit to the Senior Partners. All while his physical body is possessed by whichever demon that constitutes a vampire. Then we have another one of those trippy multiple Gunn fights where body fights soul.

But they seem to have given that role away to Wes, so whatchagonnado...

[Tremnar]

Awesome first issue. Glad to see that the theme of the last page inducing fanboy orgasms has continued with Vampire Gunn at the end of Angel.

Who made him into a Vamp...maybe Spike Maybe Angel..maybe a random vamp that bit and 'Killed' Gunn in the battle in the ally. Who knows. Angel In Hell is very interesting, he gets to take his martyr complex to a whole nother level with him fighting all of hell and secluding himself even further. It appears that Angel is all on his own. Gunn is a vamp fighting demons for 'food', Spike looks like he has his own harem,Conner the Were Chick and Gwen running thier own 'Human' safe house is very interesting although I am left wondering... wheres Aylissa (if I spelled that right). And with Angels Monologue in the beginging I would bet that Fred will be makeing a return (I know her sould was supposeidly destroyed, but isnt that just what a God would say if she didnt want her new body taken from her)...possibly coexisting within the body of a God would be interesting.

Either way Im at the edge of my seat waiting for more. Just like I am for buffy.

-T-

[P.D.H]

its a british film called "Naked" if your over 18 i suggest you watch it. it starts with him (the actor who playd lupin Thelewis or whatever) rapeing a girl and then follows this guy as he walks the streets that night. he is a horrible person but you can't help but like him by the end of the film
Oh right! I thought you meant in Harry Potter itself!

That would have been weird...

[eddie3429]

Oh right! I thought you meant in Harry Potter itself!

That would have been weird...
yeah nothing like that. but you know jk said recently dumbledore is gay. that shocked alot of fans

[Clem]

Does anyone think Joss has been a little too harsh on Angel's crew?

It's not like i want them skipping off into the sunset with smiles on their faces, but would it be so bad if they had a tiny bit of happiness?

Doyle died, Cordy died, Fred's soul was consumed in the fires of resurrection, Wes' soul is eternally bound to Wolfram & Hart and Gunn's a soulless vamp. I mean wheres the up side?

You look over at Buffy and she's happy as can be, leading a Slayer army, Willow's some uber-witch, Xander's Nick Fury and the biggest problem they have is a pissy ex-rat and her flesh-impared boyfriend...

Can we have a little mercy for the Angel posse?

[Tigerhawk]

I would like to see Cordelia apear again. Truth be told I always liked the Angel/Cordy romance alot more that the Buffy/Angel. The first seemed more realistic or something..I was really pissed of when Cordy died...

[Clem]

I would like to see Cordelia apear again. Truth be told I always liked the Angel/Cordy romance alot more that the Buffy/Angel. The first seemed more realistic or something..I was really pissed of when Cordy died...

I loved the character of Cordy, but Charisma Carpenter was really beginning to piss me off in season 4.

She got up the duff, so they had to rearrange the entire season around her, create a romance with Conner out of thin air and force some really cr*ppy traits on her character. All to explain an inopportune bump.

I think everyone would have been happier had she stayed an ascended being, instead of the creepy "i've boned two generations of the same family, even with the other guy watching" schtick.

[RoiVampire]

Does anyone think Joss has been a little too harsh on Angel's crew?

It's not like i want them skipping off into the sunset with smiles on their faces, but would it be so bad if they had a tiny bit of happiness?

Doyle died, Cordy died, Fred's soul was consumed in the fires of resurrection, Wes' soul is eternally bound to Wolfram & Hart and Gunn's a soulless vamp. I mean wheres the up side?

You look over at Buffy and she's happy as can be, leading a Slayer army, Willow's some uber-witch, Xander's Nick Fury and the biggest problem they have is a pissy ex-rat and her flesh-impared boyfriend...

Can we have a little mercy for the Angel posse?

Joss does not like his characters to be happy, he never has

you just wait, the scooby gang is about to get the rug pulled out from them, i can feel it.

plus faith doesn't seem that happy in the last issue

[Clem]

Joss does not like his characters to be happy, he never has

you just wait, the scooby gang is about to get the rug pulled out from them, i can feel it.

plus faith doesn't seem that happy in the last issue

Is Faith ever happy? Besides, the thought of her naked in the tub with another girl makes ME happy...

I just feel bad for the Angel crew. They don't even get to have a happy afterlife, their souls get destroyed or bought or co-opted by demons. I love these guys even more than the Scoobies, but all they ever get is pain and suffering.

[Sunless]

I already like this more then Buffy season 8.

[Sunless]

I just want to say that getting the issue a week late is no big deal, but Clem did spoil the ending with his sig :(

[jackhawk66]

The thing we have to remember about Gunn is - he's dead. His soul went poof, off into the floaty afterlife. Now theres some scuzzy demon wearing his body like a suit. The Whedonverse lets us be absolutely decisive on the matter - that ain't him anymore.

Now it's just a question of who did the deed. Did Angel do it? Did Spike? Some random vamp in the attack ala Harmony? Was he already turning after his attack on the Senator's office?

I'll miss ya Charley Boy.
How did Angel and Spike "reclaim" their souls? As you state in the Whedonverse the demon takes over the body when vamped. Where did Angel's and Spike's soul come from?

[Xeero]

How did Angel and Spike "reclaim" their souls? As you state in the Whedonverse the demon takes over the body when vamped. Where did Angel's and Spike's soul come from?

Huh? :confused:

Angel was cursed with a soul from gypsies. Spike went through trials that eventually got him a soul that way he could finally get with Buffy.

[RoiVampire]

How did Angel and Spike "reclaim" their souls? As you state in the Whedonverse the demon takes over the body when vamped. Where did Angel's and Spike's soul come from?


When the demon takes over your body your soul kind of goes into limbo sort of, it's still out there somewhere and it can be rejoined with you through magical means

[Xanrn]

Yeah Angel was re-souled the 1st and 2nd time, by summoning his soul from wether it was into a vessel then transfering it from the vessel into Angel.

The 3rd time it was already in a Vessel

[FrenchDoctor]

I think being disappointed that Angel and Co have a harder time of it than Buffy and the Scoobs is kinda missing the point of both shows/concepts. Buffy was always about the process of growing up. Each character had to grow and mature. With Angel, it was always about the sacrifices one has to make to accomplish their goals. It's basically built into the show's DNA that people will be in pain, be harmed, and sometimes die, and as long as they accomplish their mission, it was worth it.

[Clem]

When the demon takes over your body your soul kind of goes into limbo sort of, it's still out there somewhere and it can be rejoined with you through magical means

I'd like to think their souls go on to the afterlife as they should.

I think if a soul went into limbo indefinitely, by the time they got re-ensouled, they'd be f*cking nuts.

[Tremnar]

Is Faith ever happy? Besides, the thought of her naked in the tub with another girl makes ME happy...

I just feel bad for the Angel crew. They don't even get to have a happy afterlife, their souls get destroyed or bought or co-opted by demons. I love these guys even more than the Scoobies, but all they ever get is pain and suffering.

Their pain is so interesting though.


I'm loving th direction of the series though....hopefully when Angel gets LA back onto our plane of existence, another series will start up.

I'm already hoping Angel and Spike ensoul Gunn. I also want Fred to come back....it's possible right? The interactions with Conner Were Chick and Gwen will be interesting too, as will Angel and Wesleys dealings...and spike with a Harem of women? I'm already hooked.

-T-

[Sunless]

Their pain is so interesting though.


I'm loving th direction of the series though....hopefully when Angel gets LA back onto our plane of existence, another series will start up.

I'm already hoping Angel and Spike ensoul Gunn. I also want Fred to come back....it's possible right? The interactions with Conner Were Chick and Gwen will be interesting too, as will Angel and Wesleys dealings...and spike with a Harem of women? I'm already hooked.

-T-

No Fred's soul was totally and utterly erased.

[nolanjwerner]

Yeah, her soul was gone completely.

Theres no way she can come back.

[RoiVampire]

I'd like to think their souls go on to the afterlife as they should.

I think if a soul went into limbo indefinitely, by the time they got re-ensouled, they'd be f*cking nuts.


well spike was pretty nuts when he got re-ensouled, and angel seemed to be in a lot of pain

[Tremnar]

No Fred's soul was totally and utterly erased.

OR IS IT?!?! It probably is but Im having trouble remembering who told them that Fred's soul was destroyed. Was it the God herself or was it her follower? If they are the only ones to say this it seems probable that they were lying to protect the new body of the deity.

She is most likely gone, but I think it could be an interesting twist to see her return.

-T-

[JediMaster]

OR IS IT?!?! It probably is but Im having trouble remembering who told them that Fred's soul was destroyed. Was it the God herself or was it her follower? If they are the only ones to say this it seems probable that they were lying to protect the new body of the deity.

She is most likely gone, but I think it could be an interesting twist to see her return.

-T-

I remember reading that Joss intended to have a plot thread in his original plan for Season 6 that involved Willow finding a way to restore Fred. Of course, the catch would be that Wes had begun to have feelings for Illyria, and would have to choose between them for who would live and who would cease to exist.

[JediMaster]

It's an easy mistake. They both have vaginas.

No, Conner doesn't have one. He IS a vagina. I can see how that would be confusing.

;)

[nolanjwerner]

No, Conner doesn't have one. He IS a vagina. I can see how that would be confusing.

;)

So um...is connor less of a whiny little bitch now?

or is he as bad as he was in Season 4?

[jediracer]

No Fred's soul was totally and utterly erased.

yea, and warren mears was dead.

nothing is for certain.

[Tremnar]

So um...is connor less of a whiny little bitch now?

or is he as bad as he was in Season 4?

At the end of Season 5 He was really cool again. If you didn't watch the end of Season 4 of Angel you wont understand how that is possible but it is. And I kinda like the character now.

As far as the whole Fred thing goes I just found it weird that no one on the show questioned that her Soul was gone. They took the followers text and word for it, naturally they would say something like that to stop their god from being turned back into a human.

-T-

[nolanjwerner]

At the end of Season 5 He was really cool again. If you didn't watch the end of Season 4 of Angel you wont understand how that is possible but it is. And I kinda like the character now.

As far as the whole Fred thing goes I just found it weird that no one on the show questioned that her Soul was gone. They took the followers text and word for it, naturally they would say something like that to stop their god from being turned back into a human.

-T-

I've seen all of Angel.

I know what Angel did.

But connor still came off as a jackass in this and he was only in like 3 panels.

[amlah6]

Finally got to read this last night.

It was really hard for me to get past the art, it's pretty dissapointing that we finally get a continuation to Angel cannon and this is the format it's presented in. I couln't tell who anyone was... I wasn't even sure that was Gunn at the end until I read this thread. Maybe IDW should spend a little less on high grade paper and card stock covers and a little more on artists.

The story seems like it has potential, but I didn't like the scripting much. When I read the Buffy comic I hear the character's voices, but I didn't get that with this at all.

[trence5]

Yeah, her soul was gone completely.

Theres no way she can come back.Yeap, Fredd's soul is off in the REAL hereafter (probably same place Buffy went when she died back on the show). I doubt she's comin' back.

[trence5]

As far as the whole Fred thing goes I just found it weird that no one on the show questioned that her Soul was gone. They took the followers text and word for it, naturally they would say something like that to stop their god from being turned back into a human.

-T-I agree. The soul, conscienousness, is energy as such cannot be totally destroyed - she's just where Buff was when she was dead. So I doubt she want to come back even if she could.

[nolanjwerner]

Yeap, Fredd's soul is off in the REAL hereafter (probably same place Buffy went when she died back on the show). I doubt she's comin' back.

I always thought the series implied more that it was totally destroyed.

But the heaven explanation probably seems more comforting.

[Xeero]

I always thought the series implied more that it was totally destroyed.



Yeah, same here.

[nolanjwerner]

Yeah, same here.

But it did come from what the cultists said.

So they could be lying.

But there was never anything else in the series that indicated that this was not the case.

And Wesley would have found it if it were there.

[Odie91]

I remember reading somewhere like a month ago, maybe on IGN, that Whedon had intended for them to find a possible way to bring Fred back shortly after Wesley started to develop feelings for Illyria.

In regards to Gunn, I think it would be pretty sweet if he ended up being the souled vampire that fulfilled the prophecy. :D Misdirection is something Whedon has always been good with.

[nolanjwerner]

I remember reading somewhere like a month ago, maybe on IGN, that Whedon had intended for them to find a possible way to bring Fred back shortly after Wesley started to develop feelings for Illyria.

In regards to Gunn, I think it would be pretty sweet if he ended up being the souled vampire that fulfilled the prophecy. :D Misdirection is something Whedon has always been good with.

Three souled vampires is at least one too many.

I'm going to say at least one gets a stake.

[Willowhugger]

I always thought the series implied more that it was totally destroyed.

But the heaven explanation probably seems more comforting.

I like the idea that Illyria is whatever Fred used to be.