AVENGERS 80-81

[YDLM]

LIONHEART OF AVALON PART 4 & 5

Writer: Chuck Austen
Penciler: Oliver Copiel
Inker:Andy Lanning


These two issues basically the Origin of the New Captain Britain. If you havent been buying Avengers in a while dont worry too much, there are somethings that have a changed like Wasp suddenly has the ability to be grow like 50 or 60ft. There may have been an explanation for that bit it wasnt in the issues that I ve got. I really love the way Copiel draws these characters, when he has the time, he reminds you of Jim Lee circa Alpha Flight.For most of his run his art has been inconsistent from panel to panel.They go from breathtaking to sloppy with almost no rhyme or reason. Copiel should a be a big time player in the comic world hopefully, his artistic consistency will improve to the point where his talent matches his skill.

The story is okay nothing spectacular just okay.My major gripe with it is how the new Captain Britan came to be. She is given a choice that reeks of a deal with the devil than that of a good guy like Brian Braddock.You really feel like the new Cap is being tricked and not given any choice at all. It doesnt really make sense. The Avengers through out the series come off as rookies and not the seasoned professional that they are.The dialogue is okay, but nothing that is really inspired. It was hard to get into the story because everything felt so rushed, which since this was a 5 parter, that shouldnt have been a problem.I really like the look of the New Cap, and hopefully she wont get lost in the shuffle when the Bendis run begins.Last thing the cover for issue 81 was just plain ugly, I dont get why Kolins is still getting Avenger work.

My grade is C- for issue 80 and C for 81.

[YDLM]

BUMP.

[Moonbeam]

I got the first three issues in this storyline, but only looked through the last couple issues in the story at the shop -- didn't buy them.

I can say that I was also bothered by the choice Cap Britain had to make in this book. But I think that was the whole point. It's like Spawn was at first, you know? I mean ... geez ... now that I typed that, it's exactly like freaking Spawn, isn't it? No wonder you referred to a "deal with the devil." Anyway -- the writer is obviously developing this character as a tortured soul -- not tortured by the usual superhero "should-I-be-a-vigilante" crap, but by a REAL heartbreaker -- she can't be alive and fighting crime at all if she reveals herself to her children. This storyline even takes it one step further -- she has to watch her children grieve.

OK -- like I said -- I only leafed through this one in the store. Do the Avengers not recognize this Cap Britain chick? I mean ... c'mon -- didn't her body disappear out of the jet? Doesn't it surprise them that she's a chick? Don't they notice the hair? They can't put 2 and 2 together here?

I actually had a strong feeling that the older son would figure it out. I thought Austen was foreshadowing this when he had that line in the earlier issue about the kid recognizing whom Hawkeye was and having recognized him when he donned the different costume. If the kid is that keen, it's hard to imagine he wouldn't recognize his own mum.

[YDLM]

Actually, I think that Wanda and Cap know but everyone else is in the dark. Spawn origin is cool because it was the devil that he made it with. CB'S origin is flawed because she made a deal with two very good people, who would never screw over an innocent like that.Thanks for resonding M.

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by YDLM
Actually, I think that Wanda and Cap know but everyone else is in the dark. Spawn origin is cool because it was the devil that he made it with. CB'S origin is flawed because she made a deal with two very good people, who would never screw over an innocent like that.Thanks for resonding M.

As I leafed through this last issue, I saw the image of her crying after seeing her child, and I thought to myself, "I'm glad I'm not reading this." The first three issues bothered me so bad because I felt like they were mishandling the issue of domestic violence. And here in my hands was a comic that was playing with the emotions of a mother.

This writer's just getting a little too close to some issues that are important to me as a woman and as a mother. I really am glad I don't have to feel for a chick who's forced to choose between life and her children. You are right -- it's an ugly, awful choice. And it doesn't seem like something that good people would force her to do.

[Galleech]

I though that even though Brian Braddock is ruiling the Otherworld Roma and Merlin were still pulling the strings to a certain extent behind the scenes and they did seem like the type that would force her to make this choice. I don't think we will ever get to see any reasoning behind the choice she had to make since Chuck Austen's run is ending in three issues and Bendis is probably too busy will Avengers Disassemble.

[Split Persona]

The final issue of this arc was by far the best, I think after all the crap before Austen fianlly got a hold on these characters. I think I liked this issue so much because I really got a sense of feeling the emotions that the mother was feeling while reading this. I think that Wanda is the only one that knows Kelsey is the new Capt Britain, and I think the others don't recognize her because I think she is supposed to look totally different under the mask? But thats just my guess.

[Somniator]

A small point about Austen writing Captain Britain, that at least Paul O'Brien at www.thexaxis.com managed to pick up on (perhaps because he's Scottish).

Captain Britain's name is Captain BRITAIN. Not Captain England. There's a lot more to Britain than just England, thank you very much.

[FreeBird]

I liked the last issue to a point. The whole thing about the way CB came to be was just a little odd to me.

I am sure Wanda knows who CB is and i got the feeling that Captain America knows who CB is.

And i think that Austen would have done more with this in his run but there will not be time with the Avengers Disassemble story line coming up so soon.

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by FreeBird
And I think that Austen would have done more with this
I think Austen SHOULD have done more with this! This whole storyarc has been a huge disapointment to me, especially as it promised the return of Captain Britain. :(
The new character is so lame and the set-up so preposterous that I hope Bendis consigns the character to comic book limbo as soon as possible.

[punkmonkey]

AVENGERS #81
Title: “Lionheart of Avalon” Pt. 5 (of 5)
Publisher: Marvel Comics -- $2.25 / 22 pgs.
Writer: Chuck Austen
Artists: Olivier Coipel/ Andy Lanning
Colorist: Chris Sotomayor
Cover Artist: Scott Kolins

Reviewed By: Jared Moraitis
Grade: Story -- D

Chuck Austen, I dub thee Sir Ball-Dropper!! Another letdown by Austen, not only as an individual issue, but a letdown as a finale to the drawn out 5-parter “Lionheart of Avalon” that took too long to get to the point with several fumbles along the way. Austen’s desire to focus on soap-opera elements isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s just not carried out very well, and is overshadowed by the glaring errors of logic and missed opportunities that seem to be a staple of Austen’s superhero tales.

The villains of this tale, revealed to be Morgan Le Fey and the Black Knight, seem insignificant as their threat was limited to this final issue and their intentions and overall identity remained vague and seemingly unimportant. The main focus of the entire arc was mother Kelsey Leigh, who “died” defending Captain America and was transformed into the new Captain Britain with the ridiculously contrived condition that she never reveal herself to her children, who, ironically, take up residence in the Avengers mansion this issue. You would think there would be some sort of legal issue preventing the Avengers from harboring children within the mansion, but such is not the case in Austen’s world. We need some enduring form of psychological torture for this new Captain Britain, so I guess she’ll have to either stay locked in her room, or constantly wear her mask around the mansion to prevent her children from finding out her identity. Of course, the children would never be able to recognize their mother’s familiar voice, would they -- unless Kelsey’s voice was magically altered as well. Makes perfect sense!

Austen also seems to be setting up a bit of a romance between Captain America and the new Captain Britain, which, thematically, is an intriguing development, and there is an interesting reversal of roles this issue as Cap is able to defend Kelsey much as she did for him early in this storyline. There is an unsettling overemphasis on Kelsey’s scar by Captain America and Kelsey’s mother, as if she were beautiful before the scar, but not after! It’s just a line scar, it’s not like half her face is burned off! Austen also waited far too long to explore the story behind her disfigurement -- it obviously was an important plot element from the get-go, but it had always seemed like some arbitrary cross-to-bear until now. Austen seems to be playing catch-up towards the final half of this issue as too many plot threads are hurriedly wrapped up in the dialogue between Scarlet Witch and Kelsey, as if he’d forgotten about these threads and was reminded by the editor that he needs to follow-up with some of the other supporting characters.

The only bright spot of this story arc has been the fantastic art of Olivier Coipel. He has brought an intensity to this story that was failed by the script. His command of anatomy and composition is topnotch and his etched stylings he brings to the rendering causes him to stand out in the crowd.

[punkmonkey]

Originally posted by YDLM
Actually, I think that Wanda and Cap know but everyone else is in the dark. Spawn origin is cool because it was the devil that he made it with. CB'S origin is flawed because she made a deal with two very good people, who would never screw over an innocent like that.Thanks for resonding M.

Having read the advance copy of issue 82 yesterday, I can go ahead and tell you that apparently Captain America and the other guys on the team don't realize Kelsey and Cap. Brit are one and the same. Cap comes off as thick as a brick in the exchange and actually says something like, "Hmmm. Her body did disappear off the jet at the same time this Captain Britain shows up -- maybe there's something to that."
Maybe?
Geez! I quit!

And the rest of the Avengers went along with taking these two kids and their grandmother into the mansion (surely there's a law against harboring kids in such a target location) because it was Wanda's idea, so apparently Wanda knows what's going on. Why was there not some sort of wrongful death lawsuit filed against the Avengers. The paramedics with their ambulances were on the scene with Kelsey, yet Wasp scoops up her body and transports it all the way back to the Avengers mansion in England (?), whereupon she dies en route! She would have received emergency medical attention while en route to the hospital if transported by ambulance, fer cryin' out loud! And if she was dead before she got there, why bother hooking her up to an IV? Preposterous! Couldn't Tony Stark set up some sort of fund to take care of Kelsey's children instead of bringing them into a potentially dangerous place filled with super-powered individuals?
Austen, think before you write!

[Bricktop]

What can I say about Chuck Austen that hasn't already be said.

This story was over all poorly executed. Once again a good idea is ruined buy a lame wrap-up. Austen should really concider finding a writing partner who could take his ideas (which aren't bad) and mold them into a more readable form. This arc would have normally been enough to stop me from buying the Avengers in the future, but I will continue for two reasons... 1. I like the Invaders and will hope blindly that that arch won't suck. 2. After that Austen will be replaced by Bendis.

I just hope that after Bendis leaves, this book doesn't go back into Austen's hands.

I give this story arc a <b>D</b>.

[SuperStories]

This is a nice story, but just seems to drop the ball at times. The idea for the new Captain Britin, having it tie into the past, standard "thugs" in the Wrecking crew, exploring personalities, it seemed as if it would be good, but pacing problems and a few other things just did not seem that good at the end. This seems like it came close at times for some points, but missed by a mile overall. I would give it a grade of C-

[jedifish]

In order to further complicate the Brian Braddock saga, Sage calls him in Uncanny X-Men #444 at Braddock Mansion and he answers the phone.

Explanations?

[Edward J Cunningham]

Originally posted by jedifish
In order to further complicate the Brian Braddock saga, Sage calls him in Uncanny X-Men #444 at Braddock Mansion and he answers the phone.

Explanations?

Simple. There is no cross-continuity in Marvel books anymore. For example, it seems clear that Chuck Austen is ignoring the events in She-Hulk. Also, the Statue of Liberty was destroyed in one of the X-books but remains intact in Fantastic Four. Unless books specificially reference one another, it's safe to assume that they exist in a self-contained universe and not a single unified "Marvel Universe".

Eddie

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[DrTzinTzin]

Good god, I never missed Roger Stern more than when I read this issue.

[SuperginraiX]

Quite honestly, I DON'T know the origin of the Brian Braddock Captain Britain very well, but if the history portrayed in the Earth X was accurate, he had to make a similar decision when HE became Captain Britain. He chose the Pendant (Peace)and was able to keep certain certain aspects of himself the same. The New Captain Britain chose the Sword (Violence) and presumably got a brand new body out of the deal (the hair is different, the scar is gone). I'm betting her voice is also different. She'd mostly be worried about her mannerisms giving her away, hence the standoffishness.

I'm thinking that this is just the way anyone gets to BE Captain Britain. You get to make that choice by yourself with no outside influence. Brian, being who he is, realized what the Pendant and Sword represented (basically seeing through the whole scenario) and chose what to him was the right choice. The New Cap shows a whole lot more of a violent tendancy, so the sword made more sense to her. I like the tragic aspects of the story, and Wanda summed it up the best by saying that she didn't believe in absolutes. Some day she will be able to tell her children who she is, or they will find out, and everything will work out. But that's hope.

As far as Brian showing up in Uncanny 444, he didn't. He wasn't on panel in any scene. The speaker saying he is Brian Braddock is always off panel. I don't think Sage has ever met him either so she wouldn't have noticed his voice being different. The scene looked like a villain living in Braddock's house. We'll see.

Otherwise, I guess I agree with you all on Austen's story. It needed some more planning. Using another writer to bounce these ideas off of, or even having a strong editor to moderate his work would probably make him into a stronger storyteller.

[strathcona]

Originally posted by Edward J Cunningham
Simple. There is no cross-continuity in Marvel books anymore. For example, it seems clear that Chuck Austen is ignoring the events in She-Hulk. Also, the Statue of Liberty was destroyed in one of the X-books but remains intact in Fantastic Four. Unless books specificially reference one another, it's safe to assume that they exist in a self-contained universe and not a single unified "Marvel Universe".

Nah, Austen's use of She-Hulk takes place before the current series. And actually her new series helps make her actions in Uncanny make more sense. As I've interpretted things, after the events of the 'Search for She-Hulk' story in Avengers, she can now change back and forth between She-Hulk and Jen Walters.... sometimes inadvertantly (as shown in She-Hulk #1). She doesn't like being Jen Walters, so she has been acting even more outlandish and She-Hulky (for lack of a better word) than usual... which gets her fired from her law firm, kicked out of Avengers Mansion, and causes her to even actually sleep with a convicted murder and old enemy, Juggernaut. She was acting out and they were cries for help, because she was having trouble adjusting to her unwanted changes. I'd love to see an issue of her title dedicated to a visit to Doc Sampson's office.

As for the Statue of Liberty thing, it's easy. In X-Treme X-Men's last issue, all the heroes and Damage Control were seen rebuilding Manhatten.... and I would assume that The Statue of Liberty would be high on their list, so the latest issue of FF takes place after it's been rebuilt.

[drdash]

i enjoyed these issues and this arc overall. i like austen's writings while not the best avengers writer he is not the worst, i still think that title belongs to jim shooter. i only had a few small complaints.
1) the ne black knight, where was dane? although, i found out later in avengers/t-bolts 3 he's still in slorenia dealing with the black wraith.
2. the final battle was rather anti climactic. this story could have been one more issue.
3) the characterization of morgan lefey, was not as good as previous ones such as stern's and busiek's. she was too one dimensional.

all in all a good story.
B+

ciao
drdash

[skywatcher]

Originally posted by strathcona
Damage Control were seen rebuilding Manhatten.... and I would assume that The Statue of Liberty would be high on their list, so the latest issue of FF takes place after it's been rebuilt.
Well they've had to re-build Manhatten before!
But no other NY based superheroes have been shown in a ruined Big Apple which means that Ed Cunningham's original point stands. There is no cross series continuity anymore. As Joe Queseda said, if it stands in the way of a good story they can fix the continuity glitches later. :(

[Edward J Cunningham]

Originally posted by strathcona
Nah, Austen's use of She-Hulk takes place before the current series. And actually her new series helps make her actions in Uncanny make more sense. As I've interpretted things, after the events of the 'Search for She-Hulk' story in Avengers, she can now change back and forth between She-Hulk and Jen Walters.... sometimes inadvertantly (as shown in She-Hulk #1). She doesn't like being Jen Walters, so she has been acting even more outlandish and She-Hulky (for lack of a better word) than usual... which gets her fired from her law firm, kicked out of Avengers Mansion, and causes her to even actually sleep with a convicted murder and old enemy, Juggernaut. She was acting out and they were cries for help, because she was having trouble adjusting to her unwanted changes. I'd love to see an issue of her title dedicated to a visit to Doc Sampson's office.

Dan Slott wrote She-Hulk #1 before "The Trials of the Juggernaut" story in Uncanny X-Men came out, and Chuck Austen neither knew nor cared what Dan Slott was writing. Austen sees nothing wrong with She-Hulk hitting the posturepedic with Juggy because he is a reformed villain, and that makes it OK. It only becomes problematical when you consider that the Juggernaut has tried to killed Jen's cousin on numerous occasions. If you remember the end of "Search For She-Hulk", Jennifer "playfully" throws Hawkeye for shooting Bruce with an arrow. Presumedly, she would feel more upset about someone deliberately trying to murder him. That's the reason why many She-Hulk fans have objected to that particular storyline.

And I should point out that you never learn exactly when Jennifer regained the ability to change back to Jen Walters. It's quite possible that her "genetic lock" healed years ago and that Jennifer is just using Reed's initial diagnosis that she can never change back as an excuse not to. That's my theory. But at the beginning of "Lionheart of Avalon", all the Avengers are seen traveling incognito through England except Jennifer who sticks out like a sore thumb. Obviously, Chuck Austen is ignoring the events of She-Hulk and is assuming that Jennifer cannot change back to human form. Also, there is no evidence of her reckless behavior or of her eviction from Avengers mansion. I can only assume that Austen is ignoring the events of her own book.

As for the Statue of Liberty thing, it's easy. In X-Treme X-Men's last issue, all the heroes and Damage Control were seen rebuilding Manhatten.... and I would assume that The Statue of Liberty would be high on their list, so the latest issue of FF takes place after it's been rebuilt.

It would take a couple of years to repair the Statue if it was destroyed as badly as it was in X-Men. Are we supposed to believe years have passed before or after the events of Fantastic Four? I think it's more likely that what I said earlier holds true---cross-continuity does not exist unless specifically shown otherwise, which usually happens in a crossover like "Avengers Disassemble."

Eddie

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[strathcona]

Originally posted by Edward J Cunningham
Dan Slott wrote She-Hulk #1 before "The Trials of the Juggernaut" story in Uncanny X-Men came out, and Chuck Austen neither knew nor cared what Dan Slott was writing. Austen sees nothing wrong with She-Hulk hitting the posturepedic with Juggy because he is a reformed villain, and that makes it OK. It only becomes problematical when you consider that the Juggernaut has tried to killed Jen's cousin on numerous occasions. If you remember the end of "Search For She-Hulk", Jennifer "playfully" throws Hawkeye for shooting Bruce with an arrow. Presumedly, she would feel more upset about someone deliberately trying to murder him. That's the reason why many She-Hulk fans have objected to that particular storyline.

And I should point out that you never learn exactly when Jennifer regained the ability to change back to Jen Walters. It's quite possible that her "genetic lock" healed years ago and that Jennifer is just using Reed's initial diagnosis that she can never change back as an excuse not to. That's my theory. But at the beginning of "Lionheart of Avalon", all the Avengers are seen traveling incognito through England except Jennifer who sticks out like a sore thumb. Obviously, Chuck Austen is ignoring the events of She-Hulk and is assuming that Jennifer cannot change back to human form. Also, there is no evidence of her reckless behavior or of her eviction from Avengers mansion. I can only assume that Austen is ignoring the events of her own book.

I agree with you that Austen is ignoring events in other books and ignoring She-Hulk's past characterization. I'm not happy with the fact that she knocked boots with Juggy either. I'm just looking at these situations as ways out of what Austen has done. Retconning without originally meaning to retcon, so to speak. My other option would be, that wasn't She_hulk that Juggy slept with. If you remember, She-Hulk appeared in the normal MU during the whole Heroes Reborn thing... though she was shown coming back from the Franklinverse in Heroes Return. Therefore there are two She-Hulk's running around, so it was the Franklinverse She-Hulk that slept with Juggy.

Originally posted by Edward J Cunningham
It would take a couple of years to repair the Statue if it was destroyed as badly as it was in X-Men. Are we supposed to believe years have passed before or after the events of Fantastic Four? I think it's more likely that what I said earlier holds true---cross-continuity does not exist unless specifically shown otherwise, which usually happens in a crossover like "Avengers Disassemble." [/B]

Ah, come on. Manhatten gets destroyed all the time in the MU and other books rarely show it. Hell, how long has Asgard been floating over the city and how many times has it been mentioned in other books. And with the amount of damage done to cities in the MU, they must have rebuilding down to an artform. I have no problem buying that they can rebuild the Statue of Liberty quick in a few weeks, if not even days.

[YDLM]

Originally posted by Edward J Cunningham




It would take a couple of years to repair the Statue if it was destroyed as badly as it was in X-Men. Are we supposed to believe years have passed before or after the events of Fantastic Four? I think it's more likely that what I said earlier holds true---cross-continuity does not exist unless specifically shown otherwise, which usually happens in a crossover like "Avengers Disassemble."

Eddie

<center><img src="http://www.she-hulk.us/Banners/She-Hulk.gif"> (http://www.she-hulk.us)</center>

I agreed with everything you said except that. Its the MU, there is more than enough power and tecnology there to fix the statue in a day. You get Polaris,a couple of telekinetics, a blueprint, and Superman types like Rogue ,Sunspot, and maybe Warbird.

[paulski]

Originally posted by drdash
the characterization of morgan lefey, was not as good as previous ones such as stern's and busiek's. she was too one dimensional.

Actually, I'd go so far as to call her characterisation 'zero dimensional'. Very poor use of the character that it took 4 issues (Avengers vol.3 #1-4, IIRC) to defeat last time compared with about half an issue (and 3 Avengers) this time around. Lame.

And it's a sad state of events when the baddie's identity is first revealed to the readers... IN THE RECAP PAGE IN THE LAST ISSUE OF THE STORYLINE!! Sure, I'd pegged it as her halfway through the penultimate issue, but I've been reading her for about 25 years. This was mind-numbingly dumb.