RESURRECTION OF RA'S AL GHUL [Archive]

Drink

07-16-2007, 09:18 PM

Chill, Zechs. Just because Ra's is coming back means Cassie bites the big one?
Given that Cass is at least loosely responsible for the death of Ra's daughter, it's possible.

Of course, Nyssa killed Ra's first, but still, it's family.

This is of course assuming that Cass isn't still inexplicably evil and now working with Ra's.

Wright Blan

07-16-2007, 09:43 PM

Given that Cass is at least loosely responsible for the death of Ra's daughter, it's possible.

Of course, Nyssa killed Ra's first, but still, it's family.

This is of course assuming that Cass isn't still inexplicably evil and now working with Ra's.

When this whole mess started, I thought it might turn out that Cass was sent undercover to infiltrate Ra's orginazation by Batman. Mabye I'll actually turn out to be correct...for once. Well, twice. I think I called Selina's pregnancy first.

Xanrn

07-16-2007, 09:54 PM

I just want the real Cassandra Cain back.

In a lesbian relationship with Ravager, cause she is obiviously not "minority" enough just being half Asian, so got to add something else to give her protected status.

sexyjesus

07-16-2007, 10:27 PM

It was a stupid idea to kill him off in the first place.

Zechs

07-16-2007, 11:23 PM

It was a stupid idea to kill him off in the first place.

True, it really was. But how the heck are they going to bring him back? I mean wasn't Rucka's way of offing him sort of finality to it?

Chill, Zechs. Just because Ra's is coming back means Cassie bites the big one?

Well he could do the routine of having her join him.. but um.. usually when bad guys are brought back they usually destroy those who are ruining their good name like Norman Osborn with the Hobgoblin or Cobra Commander with a certain group of Cobra members who where on a freighter. Need I say more for being a little fearful for her life?

Lorendiac

07-16-2007, 11:34 PM

It was a stupid idea to kill him off in the first place.

Not necessarily. He's been killed off several times before, after all. His tendency to keep coming back is actually one of the Defining Features of the character! At this point, it would be Blatantly Out of Character for him to ever die and then fail to come back! It would also be blatantly out of character for him to ever go, say, 20 years at a stretch without dying (and coming back) a couple of times! (Same statements apply to Jean Grey, obviously).

sexyjesus

07-16-2007, 11:39 PM

Not necessarily. He's been killed off several times before, after all. His tendency to keep coming back is actually one of the Defining Features of the character! At this point, it would be Blatantly Out of Character for him to ever die and then fail to come back! It would also be blatantly out of character for him to ever go, say, 20 years at a stretch without dying (and coming back) a couple of times! (Same statements apply to Jean Grey, obviously).
Yeah, but they killed KILLED him. It was supposed to be absolutely final. I just can't wait til he returns to his own iconic status.

Wellness

07-17-2007, 12:11 AM

I would think if Ras came back, some writer who knows Cassandra's history might try to use the fact that she was partially trained to work for him and his League of Assassins to craft a story for her.

Zechs

07-17-2007, 12:15 AM

TheDarkShake

07-17-2007, 12:18 AM

May have something to do with TDK coming up next summer. ;)

Boostered

07-17-2007, 01:02 AM

Fact is, is there anymore at DC who even cares about her anymore? *sniffle* :(
I think that may be true, and it doesn't look to good for her either. She took control of the League of Assassins and killed Nyssa. I think Ra's is gonna kill her or injury her badly.

Thundasturm

07-17-2007, 01:28 AM

I think that may be true, and it doesn't look to good for her either. She took control of the League of Assassins and killed Nyssa. I think Ra's is gonna kill her or injury her badly.

Perhaps they'll paralyze her and make Barbara Gordon walk again. :eek:

Then we'll have a half-Asian handicapped girl. 3-for-1 minority package, baby! :p

/jest

Zechs

07-17-2007, 01:31 AM

I think that may be true, and it doesn't look to good for her either. She took control of the League of Assassins and killed Nyssa. I think Ra's is gonna kill her or injury her badly.

Fact is though she shouldn't even be with the League anymore given Titans East. She should have burned her bridges. But knowing Batman Editoral they'll have her still lead the LoA only of Ra's to appear and p*wn her like she did Nyssa.. and honestly that wasn't really p*wning just a cheap way to kill Nyssa if you think about it. :(

Boostered

07-17-2007, 01:54 AM

Fact is though she shouldn't even be with the League anymore given Titans East. She should have burned her bridges. But knowing Batman Editoral they'll have her still lead the LoA only of Ra's to appear and p*wn her like she did Nyssa.. and honestly that wasn't really p*wning just a cheap way to kill Nyssa if you think about it. :(
Yeah I see a Scimitar pwning Casandra when Ra's returns.

sinosleep

07-17-2007, 01:57 AM

They may as well kill her off if they're going to keep butchering her character any way, and I'm saying that as a HUGE Cass fan. They either need to retcon/fix the COMPETELY inexplicable character change or kill her off.

Hu5h

07-17-2007, 02:02 AM

did anyone really think they wouldn't bring Ra's back? they even hinted at it in, I think, Villains United, where Lex says he made plans to counter Ra's if he ever came back.

Plus, they'd have to bring him back and use him soon before they lose the copyright on him.

eddie3429

07-17-2007, 02:10 AM

he died? i remember mention of it but dosen't he die and come back....an't that his thing?

sexyjesus

07-17-2007, 03:11 AM

he died? i remember mention of it but dosen't he die and come back....an't that his thing?
He doesn't die. He just gets feeble, takes a dip in the Lazarus pit, and comes out fresh. If you die and go in a Lazarus pit, you come out bat ____ crazy.

sexyjesus

07-17-2007, 03:11 AM

double post <sfsdf>

TheDarkShake

07-17-2007, 03:42 AM

Here's hoping he comes out batshit crazy! :p

deganawida

07-17-2007, 10:04 AM

True, it really was. But how the heck are they going to bring him back? I mean wasn't Rucka's way of offing him sort of finality to it?

How are they gonna bring him back? My guess is that they already have, a year ago, and he's been in plain sight all along. Tell me, why was Batman so eager to take Damian in?

Jamo

07-17-2007, 10:56 AM

This has been in the works for a while. I remember some interview with Peter Tomasi I think done on this site sometime shortly before or after OYL where he said that all of the Bat-books were leading to something, and I figured it was this. I'm really looking forward to this storyline.

P.S. Is anyone else excited about Tony Daniel on Batman? I sure am.

adama

07-17-2007, 11:08 AM

Between this and Underground I'm going to start reading Batman.

Porcelain

07-17-2007, 11:12 AM

meh.....Damien needs to be involved majorly.

mybotisgone

07-17-2007, 01:11 PM

How are they gonna bring him back? My guess is that they already have, a year ago, and he's been in plain sight all along. Tell me, why was Batman so eager to take Damian in?
What??? Where you born in a cave or something??? The Lazarus Pits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Pit). I hear it's not just Ra's al Ghul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27s_Al_Ghul) as well. From what I hear they may bring Stephanie Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(comics)) back as well. Yea, she may come back as well. If they do this DC will be fixing two of there biggest mistakes.:)

Banana_Oil

07-17-2007, 01:18 PM

I think that may be true, and it doesn't look to good for her either. She took control of the League of Assassins and killed Nyssa.

But but but Nyssa was the sensational new character of the decade! Rucka said so!

chap22

07-17-2007, 01:23 PM

But but but Nyssa was the sensational new character of the decade! Rucka said so!
i still maintain Death & the maidens is by FAR the single worst thing Rucka has ever written. includig grade school term papers.

deganawida

07-17-2007, 01:35 PM

What??? Where you born in a cave or something??? The Lazarus Pits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Pit). I hear it's not just Ra's al Ghul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27s_Al_Ghul) as well. From what I hear they may bring Stephanie Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(comics)) back as well. Yea, she may come back as well. If they do this DC will be fixing two of there biggest mistakes.:)

I'm well aware of the Lazarus Pits, thank you very much. My contention is that Ra's was brought back "off-camera" through that pit that Nyssa managed to use over and over again (Geez, was that ever an awful story and retcon. I particulary *loathed* how Rucka had Ra's working with Hitler when it had been established for decades that Ra's had fought the Nazis in WWII. In fact, IIRC, Qayin from Son of the Demon was the child of some followers of Ra's who helped the Demon fight the Nazis.). I never bought Talia's "conversion", and I believe she brought Ra's back, but he was made youthful and amnesiatic as a result, so she's been passing him off as Bruce's kid until she can fully restore him. Damian's "conception" is one of the biggest continuity screw-ups of the last few years, and I find it hard to believe that there isn't a purpose behind it.

Banana_Oil

07-17-2007, 01:47 PM

i still maintain Death & the maidens is by FAR the single worst thing Rucka has ever written. includig grade school term papers.

Apart from Bruce's dream sequence it was a steaming pile.

When you kill off a long-standing character and replace them, it helps if you make the replacement actually interesting. DC sometimes has trouble remembering this.

mybotisgone

07-17-2007, 04:11 PM

I'm well aware of the Lazarus Pits, thank you very much. My contention is that Ra's was brought back "off-camera" through that pit that Nyssa managed to use over and over again (Geez, was that ever an awful story and retcon. I particulary *loathed* how Rucka had Ra's working with Hitler when it had been established for decades that Ra's had fought the Nazis in WWII. In fact, IIRC, Qayin from Son of the Demon was the child of some followers of Ra's who helped the Demon fight the Nazis.). I never bought Talia's "conversion", and I believe she brought Ra's back, but he was made youthful and amnesiatic as a result, so she's been passing him off as Bruce's kid until she can fully restore him. Damian's "conception" is one of the biggest continuity screw-ups of the last few years, and I find it hard to believe that there isn't a purpose behind it.
Well DC has been screwing up a lot lately. Starting with killing Ra's Al Ghul and to and to add the icing on the cake of DC screwing up the Batman franchise the death on Stephanie Brown and turning Batgirl into a villain. Both I hear that DC plans on fixing. DC already fix the Batwoman thing where everybody thought that Batwoman was going to replace Barbara Gordon by now making Batwoman's hair go from red to brown.

Zechs

07-17-2007, 05:04 PM

That be an awesome explination of who Damien is.. though what about #666? Wasn't it supposed to be a future Damien tale?

Boostered

07-17-2007, 05:08 PM

That be an awesome explination of who Damien is.. though what about #666? Wasn't it supposed to be a future Damien tale?
A possible future.

Shaka

07-17-2007, 05:10 PM

'Bout time

AeroRep

07-17-2007, 06:26 PM

I also believe Damian is a de-aged Ra's. I discussed this on the DC boards a few weeks back. Damian beheaded a villain just like Ra's beheaded the woman in his Year One story. Plus in that same story, during the process where people are not dieing and rising from the graves, part of that process would involve people getting younger, which is what could have happened to Ra's. As much as I dislike Morrison, this sounds just like something he would write. But whatever ends up happening, just get rid of Damian, period.

Lorendiac

07-18-2007, 08:53 AM

Apart from Bruce's dream sequence it was a steaming pile.

When you kill off a long-standing character and replace them, it helps if you make the replacement actually interesting. DC sometimes has trouble remembering this.

I'm fairly sure that someone at DC -- Dan DiDio, perhaps? -- would have responded this way if you voiced that criticism at the time "Death and the Maidens" ended:

"Of course Nyssa is more interesting! She's female instead of male, right? She's a lot younger-looking than her decrepit father, right? She's a lot prettier, right? She's got some Russian Jewish roots on her mother's side, right? What more proof could you possibly need to convince you that she is automatically more interesting than boring old Ra's al Ghul?"
;)

mybotisgone

07-18-2007, 11:03 AM

I'm fairly sure that someone at DC -- Dan DiDio, perhaps? -- would have responded this way if you voiced that criticism at the time "Death and the Maidens" ended:

"Of course Nyssa is more interesting! She's female instead of male, right? She's a lot younger-looking than her decrepit father, right? She's a lot prettier, right? She's got some Russian Jewish roots on her mother's side, right? What more proof could you possibly need to convince you that she is automatically more interesting than boring old Ra's al Ghul?"
;)
No, Banana_Oil is right. DC took away a more interesting character of Ra's al Ghul and put someone cared about Nyssa Raatko. DC did this over at Firestorm where they took the interesting character away and replaced him with an a$$hole. It's kind of what the guys working over at Stargate SG1 and Atlantis said if you keep the characters interesting you can keep the viewers locked in on you but you take away the interesting characters then you have nothing. And the proof is in the Batman sales. And look at Robin ever since Stephanie Brown's death sales for Robin have never picked up.

hippyhunter

07-18-2007, 11:36 AM

He doesn't die. He just gets feeble, takes a dip in the Lazarus pit, and comes out fresh. If you die and go in a Lazarus pit, you come out bat ____ crazy.

Yeah, but this time he definetely died. Nyssa killed him and then Batman cremated his body so that he would never come back. Ra's planed it to be that way.

Personally, I think the way they are going to tell how they resurect him is going to be incredibly stupid.

Zechs

07-18-2007, 12:08 PM

No, Banana_Oil is right. DC took away a more interesting character of Ra's al Ghul and put someone cared about Nyssa Raatko. DC did this over at Firestorm where they took the interesting character away and replaced him with an a$$hole. It's kind of what the guys working over at Stargate SG1 and Atlantis said if you keep the characters interesting you can keep the viewers locked in on you but you take away the interesting characters then you have nothing. And the proof is in the Batman sales. And look at Robin ever since Stephanie Brown's death sales for Robin have never picked up.

Actually they did for the first arc.. then when Batgirl was revealed evil they tanked.

mybotisgone

07-18-2007, 12:14 PM

Personally, I think the way they are going to tell how they resurect him is going to be incredibly stupid.
Ok, DC can just forget Ra's al Ghul and leave Nyssa in his place and you can just watch Batman sales fall. DC in a hole is dropping in sales and DC needs to do something before Batman franchise shrinks to almost nothing.

mybotisgone

07-18-2007, 12:16 PM

Actually they did for the first arc.. then when Batgirl was revealed evil they tanked.
True, they did.

Zechs

07-18-2007, 12:23 PM

True, they did.

What is the current sales for Robin? Below 10,000? Just curious?

mybotisgone

07-18-2007, 12:50 PM

What is the current sales for Robin? Below 10,000? Just curious?
As of right now. On a Book Sales Charts site (http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695).

Rank Title sales
87 Robin#162 26,792

Is that what you wand to know?

Zechs

07-18-2007, 12:55 PM

As of right now. On a Book Sales Charts site (http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695).

Rank Title sales
87 Robin#162 26,792

Is that what you wand to know?

Yes.... though nuts.. the book is back where it started sales wise before OYL.

Lorendiac

07-18-2007, 03:32 PM

DC took away a more interesting character of Ra's al Ghul and put someone cared about Nyssa Raatko. DC did this over at Firestorm where they took the interesting character away and replaced him with an a$$hole. It's kind of what the guys working over at Stargate SG1 and Atlantis said if you keep the characters interesting you can keep the viewers locked in on you but you take away the interesting characters then you have nothing. And the proof is in the Batman sales. And look at Robin ever since Stephanie Brown's death sales for Robin have never picked up.

You said that in response to my response to Banana_Oil, in which I suggested DC would claim that since Nyssa is a) female, b) younger-looking than Ra's, c) a lot prettier than Ra's, and d) has Russian Jewish roots on her mommy's side, she's automatically more interesting than Ra's (no matter how she's written).

Looking at your response, I get the terrible suspicion that you didn't realize I was speaking tongue-in-cheek. By phrasing things the way I did, I was trying to make fun of DC's ridiculous "a younger character from a minority group is obviously a better character than the person he (or she) replaces!" mentality. I never said I agreed with that sentiment; I only said someone at DC probably thought it justified "replacing" Ra's with his retconned-in-from-thin-air "long-lost daughter" Nyssa!

deadmerc

07-19-2007, 12:42 AM

It was a stupid idea to kill him off in the first place.

It was, and undoing something Rucka did kinda brings a smile to my face.

That, and I like Ra's.

Wellness

07-19-2007, 01:05 AM

Nyssa wasn't bad, but she certainly wasn't ready to replace Ra's. Given time, she could have made a good villian, but aside from Batgirl, I don't remember her appearing in any books.

NeoSamurai

07-19-2007, 01:28 AM

here's hoping he chooses Cassandra for successor :D

Zechs

07-19-2007, 01:27 PM

*wipes sweat from brow* Ok ok.. given BC #2, Cass has abandoned her side of the LoA. Which means.. she MIGHT be safe. Might.. plus this could mean that Talia could have killed Nyssa as well.. because it never was quite clear who killed her other than she go boom. *gulp*

GenerallZodd

08-21-2007, 09:18 PM

What??? Where you born in a cave or something??? The Lazarus Pits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Pit). I hear it's not just Ra's al Ghul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27s_Al_Ghul) as well. From what I hear they may bring Stephanie Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(comics)) back as well. Yea, she may come back as well. If they do this DC will be fixing two of there biggest mistakes.:)

Two biggest mistakes? Be for real, nobody really cared about Stephanie. Sorry to say it, but it's true. She was a niche fav and never very popular. They pretended she didn't even exist at DCU central and, outside of some Con outbursts, no one cared. They lost nothing by offing her. Killing Ra's was a mistake too apparently, but who's been clamoring for his return? It's not like he hasn't died before anyway. Doing something that a small group doesn't like equates a mistake. The only mistakes were: 1) not giving Nyssa a chance and possibly 2) bringing Stephanie faux-Robin back from the dead when she wasn't even memorable enough to get her suit in the cave.

Personally, I think Ra's is a walking Deus Ex Machina that kills the credibility of any story he's in. He's ok, but everytime he appears, death is automatically off the table. Then again, this is comics....