LOOKING BACK: DAREDEVIL: LAST RITES [Archive]

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MattBrady

12-04-2002, 03:12 PM

<img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/dd297.jpg" width="175" height="270" border="0" align="right" alt="Daredevil #270">by Alex Segura Jr.

No one said Daredevil ever had it easy.

By the early nineties, ol' hornhead had been stripped of his law license, sanity and girlfriend in Frank Miller's classic Born Again arc, lost his love Elektra and possibly found her a few years previous and had literally been to hell and back under writer Ann Nocenti.

So when writer D.G. Chichester took the reins of the title along with penciller Lee Weeks and inker Al Williamson, you couldn't blame fans if they were thinking it'd all been done before when it came to Daredevil. Lucky for them, it hadn't.

The game plan for Chichester and Weeks was clear from the beginning: Bring Daredevil back to basics. No more wandering through the heartland, no more amnesia, no more eco-villains. Daredevil in New York, practicing law and fighting injustice.

The culmination of their run was the four part Last Rites story arc, which ran from Daredevil #297-300 and answered a question fans had been asking since Daredevil and the Kingpin first crossed paths: Why doesn't Daredevil take down the fat man?

Dealing with the Daredevil-Kingpin relationship was a major part of not only bringing Daredevil "back" but also part of having the character move forward, Chichester said.

"My whole 'pitch' to get the book was based on two things," Chichester said. "1) Let Daredevil finally take down the Kingpin. The 'You cross this line one more time and I'm gonna...' routine had gotten old and stale and needed a payoff. 2) Using NYC as a 'character' in the story, and giving the neighborhoods and locales and such real 'identity,' as opposed to just generic cityscapes. They always tell you 'write what you know,' and as I was living in NY at that time, what better chance to play off that? And it invariably worked out well. For example, the end game between Daredevil and Kingpin at the Port Authority Bus Terminal was choreographed by me walking through the real bus station and photo referencing stuff for Lee for every shot of the battle. After that, Lee naturally super-enhanced the whole thing with his visual style."

<img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/dd298.jpg" width="175" height="270" border="0" align="left" alt="Daredevil #298">Last Rites and the bus terminal scene stand out in Weeks' mind as high points for the penciller.

"The Fall of the Kingpin storyline will always hold an important place for me in my career," Weeks said. "I am proud of the work Dan and I did there. There were some special 'moments' in that story. I think one of the most exciting moments was when Daredevil was chasing down Kingpin through Port Authority. The page just prior to the big splash/crash was a great use of time compression. Dan's scripting was reaching new heights in that, in my opinion. I remember the phone call where I was so giddy telling him how great a job I thought he did on that page.... 'A man filled with panic....and a man without fear.' It's still great."

Last Rites built on various plot threads the creators had been subtly weaving since first signing onto the book. Getting Matt Murdock back on his feet, while still providing interesting challenges and storylines in the wake of Born Again was the theme of not only Last Rites, but the majority of the Chichester/Weeks run.

"Here was a relationship that had grown cold and old," Chichester said. "The Kingpin kept messing with Daredevil, Daredevil kept storming into his office and essentially saying, 'I've had it with you fat man! You get in the way of justice one more time...no, I mean it, really, this time I'm serious...okay, so you crossed the line again but you do it just once more and...It made Daredevil look prissy and ineffectual, and also took a lot of the charge out of the Kingpin. There was no surprise in his next craftiness because you knew it was just going to keep going and going and…"

"So I thought it was time to turn it on its head. Let the hero do what he says he's going to do for a change, and with a raw character like Daredevil, that was a lot more natural than having a Captain America do it, for example."

"I also thought it opened a lot of more dramatic doors for the Kingpin, as well. His back history says he worked his way up from the docks, a real street level thug who ascended to his throne. That's something that had never really been seen. So in taking him down, we had an opportunity to build him up again in similar ways and see a new face/cunning to the character. We got to see a little of the background in the scene in the fabric warehouse fire. My mistake in all this was not beginning that rebuilding process sooner. Part of that was conscious -- I didn't want to jump right back in right away, thinking that it would keep readers more off guard if he just vanished. Not the typical thing, where normally the villain is back the next issue already on the rise again. However, in retrospect, I gave it too much time before I started to reintroduce his rise -- the price of hubris, thinking I actually had time on my side to continue to shepherd these characters!"

<img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/dd299.jpg" width="175" height="270" border="0" align="right" alt="Daredevil #299">Though clearly similar to Born Again as far as the themes and characters used, Chichester is clear: He didn't set out to make Last Rites a response to the now classic Miller piece.

"I wouldn't call it a response," Chichester notes. "It was a way of bringing Daredevil back to being Daredevil -- or at least a particular grounded version of him. All together, my take was to drive home Daredevil as that city protector/avenger I suggested above. I always thought Ann's stories were beautiful, evocative stories, but not necessarily always 'Daredevil' stories. So - in my mind, and again what I based my pitch to get the book -- it was time to reel him back in from this Easy Rider, exploratory/introspective role, and give him more grit and gristle. A partnership with Lee also made that a natural, as his style just suggested such potential in exploring those kind of stories and themes."

Getting Murdock his law degree back was also critical for Chichester, who saw the "blind justice" aspect of the character as too important to let sit on the sideline.

"I wanted the law back into it because the dichotomy of the lawyer and the vigilante always struck me as a great contradiction, and great fodder for internal and external drama," Chichester said.

<img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/dd300.jpg" width="175" height="270" border="0" align="left" alt="Daredevil #300">Also important was the character of Karen Page. Originally the secretary for the law office of Nelson and Murdock, Page had fallen into drugs and porn and was the cause of many of Daredevil's troubles with the Kingpin. It was in fact Page who sold Daredevil's secret identity to score drugs. Information which found its way to the Kingpin.

"Karen was an interesting character to explore, because I thought she had interesting things to say about pornography and its effect on her and society
-- a nice way to inject another layer into the stories as they moved forward," Chichester said.

"I wasn't so jazzed to simply get Matt back with Karen 'for the sake of' as I was in playing with the role reversal -- at one point Karen had eyes for Matt and he was playing it cool. Now - okay, then! - was a good time to let it run in the other direction and see where it took him."

While Chichester isn't sure where the story stands in comparison to other great Daredevil tales, he knows he and Weeks succeeded with their goals for the series and hopes it shows in the work.

"Where does it stand?" Chichester said. "I know it's better than a lot of Daredevil stories -- including some of my own. I don't know -- I would never presume to say it's 'as good as' or 'better than' the Elektra Saga or Born Again. I don't know the Smith/Quesada or Bendis/Maleev runs so I can't even try and compare there. I can only say that folks who read it really seemed to enjoy it, and for that I'm glad -- and that seems to speak volumes about how well it stands up."

mauer

12-04-2002, 03:44 PM

I didn't really get into Daredevil until Kevin Smith's run. I think I'm going to have to check this out. The relationship between the Kingpin and the Daredevil has always beenr eally cool and was sort of emphasized in Bendis' Silke storyline. Is this is a TPB?

m.

Oh...and first post. :-) lol Sorry, had to do that, it's my first time.

MattFreakinLittle

12-04-2002, 03:47 PM

I remember this arc getting me interested in Daredevil. It was really good. Unfortunately, the whole back to basics approach was abandoned about 2 years later when Matt Murdock 'died.' I did like the suit that McDaniel designed for hornhead though. Go ahead, tell me I'm a moron for that statement.

Chad Anderson

12-04-2002, 04:16 PM

Whatever happened to Chichester? What's he up to these days?

JimHughs4

12-04-2002, 04:16 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MattFreakinLittle:
I remember this arc getting me interested in Daredevil. It was really good. Unfortunately, the whole back to basics approach was abandoned about 2 years later when Matt Murdock 'died.' I did like the suit that McDaniel designed for hornhead though. Go ahead, tell me I'm a moron for that statement.<hr></blockquote>

Well, your moronitude may be up in the air, but I liked that suit too. :D I prefer the killer tomato suit, but when McDaniel was drawing it it looked exceptional. Out of his run, I most remember the fight on the tickets booth in Times Square. Kicked ass!

Out of "Last Rites" the part I remember was DD seducing Typhoid Mary, then she wakes up, he's gone, and the men in white coats are taking her away. Seemed like a very Daredevil thing to do.

MattBrady

12-04-2002, 04:38 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MattFreakinLittle:
Go ahead, tell me I'm a moron for that statement.<hr></blockquote>

Hey, no one should ever make fun of an outfit that can slice, dice, and chop any vegetable that is thrown at it...

MattB

pmpknface

12-04-2002, 04:43 PM

This was a good arc, and no I do NOT think there is a tpb ot there of this yet. It's not a big deal though. Many issues of this DD era are easy (and cheap) to come by. Don't sweat it! :D

If you dig the character of Typhoid Mary, then look to her early appearrances around issue #254 and up, her own 4-issue mini entitled "Typhoid," and early issues of Deadpool Between 3-8 and the DD/Deadpool annual (1997 I think). That last one is KEY! Art by Bernard Chang too...

SPEEDBOY

12-04-2002, 04:46 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mauer:
 Is this is a TPB?

m.<hr></blockquote>

This is one of my least favorite questions and one the most frequent on the boards these days. I'm not stupid, I realize that there is a certain amount of convenience that comes with TPB's, but to me TPB's are NOT comics books. Go to a shop that has a decent back issue supply (I know they're becoming increasingly difficult ot buy, probably because of the flood of TPBs out there!!) These comics shouldn't set you back too much. Read each section of the story a bit at a time like the creators intended. Feel the newsprint---that's right I believe these comics are old enough to be printed on actual newsprint, and some of the colors might actually run as they didn't even have computer separations yet much less computer coloring. That's a comic!!!! I'm tired of these over produced books with inflated prices, and to me hunting down back issues is on of the joys of collecting.

By the way have you been to the TPB at like Barnes and Noble lately. Every story no matter how trivial is reprinted now!!!! It's ridicuolous.

I think TPB provide a lot of good. Like if you can't find the issues in question, or they're too expensive, or you're not a hardcore comic fan, or don't live in the US, but people that that refuse to go to the comic shop and wait on the TPB for fairly new stories (unlike the above comics in question which might be difficult to find although I doubt it) just bite my ass!

SPEEDBOY!!!!!!!!!!

PS: I'm not picking on you mauer, it's just on of those things.

Brian Langlois

12-04-2002, 05:04 PM

Frank Castle

12-04-2002, 05:09 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MattFreakinLittle:
 I did like the suit that McDaniel designed for hornhead though. Go ahead, tell me I'm a moron for that statement.<hr></blockquote>

I didn't think that costume was all that bad, but I wasn't crazy about it either. What I DID like, though, was the redesigned billy clubs he had during that time. Remember? He kept them strapped to his forearms, he could join them together to make numchuks (did I spell that right?), a bo stick, etc, etc... I wish they'd kept that when they reverted to the red costume.

BTW, this story sounds interesting.. I have the "Born Again" TPB, and I always wondered how DD got back on his feet again.

Hunter

12-04-2002, 05:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SPEEDBOY:


This is one of my least favorite questions and one the most frequent on the boards these days. I'm not stupid, I realize that there is a certain amount of convenience that comes with TPB's, but to me TPB's are NOT comics books. Go to a shop that has a decent back issue supply (I know they're becoming increasingly difficult ot buy, probably because of the flood of TPBs out there!!) These comics shouldn't set you back too much. Read each section of the story a bit at a time like the creators intended. Feel the newsprint---that's right I believe these comics are old enough to be printed on actual newsprint, and some of the colors might actually run as they didn't even have computer separations yet much less computer coloring. That's a comic!!!! I'm tired of these over produced books with inflated prices, and to me hunting down back issues is on of the joys of collecting.

By the way have you been to the TPB at like Barnes and Noble lately. Every story no matter how trivial is reprinted now!!!! It's ridicuolous.

I think TPB provide a lot of good. Like if you can't find the issues in question, or they're too expensive, or you're not a hardcore comic fan, or don't live in the US, but people that that refuse to go to the comic shop and wait on the TPB for fairly new stories (unlike the above comics in question which might be difficult to find although I doubt it) just bite my ass!
<hr></blockquote>

Have to disagree in sort of a general way. While I respect those people who buy the individual issues, I much prefer the trades, for several reasons. (And yes, I know you covered some of these, but I think they merit commenting on again)

I don't have a decent comic book store close to me (and up until recently, I worked at a Barnes and Noble) so it was easier for me to get the trades than the issues.
I feel that it's easier to read trades -- sure, you miss out on the letters page, but you also miss out on the advertisements (something which Marvel is starting in their trades, natch). Trades are more durable, as well. They also display better, as I can store them as I would any other book and identify them by the spine.
In many cases (especially with older reprints) the paper quality of the tpb is better than the original comics. You may like the old newsprint, but I hated it, especially when the nicer paper came along. I'm all for better quality, be it color separation or otherwise.
Trades often reprint material that wouldn't be readily available otherwise. The wonderful Akira reprints by Dark Horse are a great example. I wish that all of the companies would publish more of their old, hard-to-find stuff this way.
Most (not all) trades aren't collectible, meaning you can often find trades of stuff cheap when the individual issues are going for a lot. More power to those of us who're readers and not collectors.
As you have pointed out, just about everything is being reprinted these days -- much of it not long after it comes out. Not to give the Marvel regime and their no-overprint policy credit, but if I know a mini-series (Origin, for exmaple) is going to be collected immediately, I'm not going to go out of my head finding the issues if I don't get to the store on the day they come out. (Most stuff doesn't sell out the day it comes out, granted.)
Perhaps most importantly, trades make comics accessible for new readers, without having Key issues (a concept I also am a fan of, incidentally), summaries at the beginning of each issue, cheesy recap/expositional dialogue by the characters, etc.

Funny, I just got into this discussion on the<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hughes-fans/" target="_blank">Hughes-Fan mailing list</a> (*plug plug*).

NotAnIssue

12-04-2002, 05:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


That hurts the sales of the actual comic. No wonder the industry is hurting now.

<hr></blockquote>

Oh come on...to each his own as far as the issues/tpb question goes, but to say that trades are hurting series? or better yet, the industry?

Trades had a huge surge in popularity this year and are helping to DRIVE the industry.

...and if a series is axed because people are demanding a trade rather than issues, then that's the publisher's fault for being shortsighted or misguided. But I'd guess that 10 out of 10 times, if a series is cancelled, it's not from holdouts waiting for trades.

Alex Segura Jr.

12-04-2002, 06:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Chad Anderson:
Whatever happened to Chichester? What's he up to these days?<hr></blockquote>

Stay tuned.

Alex

Bill_Nolan

12-04-2002, 06:03 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mauer:
Is this is a TPB?

m.
<hr></blockquote>

I registered so that someone would actually answer your question...

Yes, this was put out as a tpb, but it was years ago, so it's a bit hard to find. It's called "Fall of the Kingpin," and here's a link to an ebay auction with a picture (not mine, just for a picture):

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=741922028" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=741922028</a>

- Bill

Craig K

12-04-2002, 06:03 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:

That hurts the sales of the actual comic. No wonder the industry is hurting now.
<hr></blockquote>

You do realize that, from a purely economical standpoint, trade paperbacks are far more profitable than single issues--to both companies and creators, and that the main reason there has been such a proliferation of trades is
because of this fact.

Granted the whole "waiting for the trade hurts/does not hurt the series" argument is a lot more subjective--and not something I wish to get into--but when it comes to how much money companies make, trades don't hurt companies, they're helping them stay in business.

American Caesar

12-04-2002, 06:23 PM

He's right.

Brian Langlois

12-04-2002, 06:49 PM

[quote]Originally posted by NotAnIssue:


Oh come on...to each his own as far as the issues/tpb question goes, but to say that trades are hurting series? or better yet, the industry?

Trades had a huge surge in popularity this year and are helping to DRIVE the industry.

...and if a series is axed because people are demanding a trade rather than issues, then that's the publisher's fault for being shortsighted or misguided. But I'd guess that 10 out of 10 times, if a series is cancelled, it's not from holdouts waiting for trades.<hr></blockquote>

It does hurt a series if the TPB never comes. There are a lot of series that never get trades, and if people wait for them instead of buying the book....

And I'm not blaming anyone for this - I don't want to get into a big debate. People should buy what they want, but as a collector, I, like Speedboy, prefer Original Issues. That's ALL I WANTED TO SAY.

BLACKBRIAR

12-04-2002, 06:59 PM

I just wanted to say that I enjoy these occassional "looking back" segments.

I never read Daredevil except for the McDaniel new costume/bald electra issues, but I think the comraderie demonstrated in the posts under this story is great.

I hope newsarama keeps them coming (especially segments that look back at underappreicated runs [like the Suicide Squad one you did].

Hdefined

12-04-2002, 07:01 PM

As this discussion seems to have segued into the theme of trades . . .

I like trades themselves, but I hate New Marvel trade-mindedness. For example, I missed Superman: For All Seasons, and didn't want to buy the hardcover (damn, I also hate hardcovers). While the individual issues (4) went for $5 each, the trade came out recently for $15. You save $5 right there, and the story's all there, in one nice package. On top of that, certain self-contained mini/maxi series seem to work better in trade form than in individual issues (Batman: Long Halloween).

HOWEVER

When it comes to ongoing series, a comic series is a comic series. An issue a month, another chapter in a continuous story of, in the case of most characters trades are collected about, characters that have existed for over 20 years. If you're going to write a monthly, make the story monthly, use cliffhangers and create subplots that bring the readers back each month.

But New Marvel, what they're doing kills me. Take Ultimate X-Men. The first two trades have virtually NO subplot whatsoever. yes, you can read either one and get the whole gist, no problem, but it feels segmented and like "this is one particular time period in the life of the X-Men". There's no ongoing feel. It's written to begin at issue #1, then almost completely conclude at issue #6, and then start again with #7. Or Bendis' Daredevil, which seems to think the issues can end anywhere it wants, be it at a cliffhanger, in the middle of a fight, in the middle of dialogue, hell maybe while a character goes to the bathroom, and the next issue picks right up from there. There's no closure of individual issues. What I'm griping about is, the individuality of each issue lessons as the scope becomes what will eventually be collected as a trade.

I mean, since I started comic collecting in the 90's, one series I grew up on was X-Men 2099. each issue had a different focus, or something significant happened each issue. Each cover was unique and promised something equally unique. However, look at Daredevil today. can you really say what happens in each particular issue? "well, in this issue, Matt talks to Foggy, and leaves his house. In the next issue, he goes to work, and Black Widow comes by. Then . . . "

Seriously, if they're going to make each issue so valueless, why not just eliminate the middleman and just produce quarterly trades? not that I'd prefer that at all, because I wouldn't, but comics aren't what they used to be

dollman

12-04-2002, 07:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


It does hurt a series if the TPB never comes. There are a lot of series that never get trades, and if people wait for them instead of buying the book....

And I'm not blaming anyone for this - I don't want to get into a big debate. People should buy what they want, but as a collector, I, like Speedboy, prefer Original Issues. That's ALL I WANTED TO SAY.<hr></blockquote>

I guess I'm one of the few who has no preference and can see the pros and cons of both. Typically I will buy a trade because I don't own the originals. Or if I do own the originals, and I want to re-read the whole story in one sitting, without having to re-open bagged comics.

Arnout

12-04-2002, 07:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Alex Segura Jr.:


Stay tuned.

Alex<hr></blockquote>

Can you give some more info on how long we have to stay tuned? I mean, I'll be here pretty much daily anyway, but D.G. is one of my favorites (quite because of his DD run) and I've been silently praying for his triumphant return. How about a teaser?
Please?
Hey, who remembers the great Batman^DD by Chichester & McDaniel. To me, probably one of the best 'intercompanies xovers'. Tho' Batman^Deathblow was pretty amazing too (but that's not really intercompany, is it?

KACH

12-04-2002, 07:41 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Arnout:
[QB]
Hey, who remembers the great Batman^DD by Chichester & McDaniel. To me, probably one of the best 'intercompanies xovers'. QB]<hr></blockquote>

I do. I still have it. My favorite Marvel/DC crossover. Murdock went to school with Harvey Dent. Nice touch.

As for the article, that was the first DD story ard I EVER read & I enjoyed it. But my dog urinated on my copy of issue 300. So, I want to pick up that trade if I can find it.

About TPBs: Yeah, to each their own. Some stuff I'll get in TPB, some stuff I'm too much of a fanboy to wait for. I mainly get TPBs well after the arc has ended for series that I never heard about when they first started (I'll be getting Fables in TPB form since I had no idea what the book was until it became "hot"). And no, they aren't hurting the industry. They are allowing the industry to spread through on-line bookstores & regular retail book stores. If someone buys DD Visionaries: Kevin Smith from Amazon.com, then walks into a comic store to get the rest of the series b/c he/she liked it, that's a HUGE plus in my book. And especially with Marvel shipping every other issue of a mini series 3 months late, I'd rather wait for the trades most of the time anyway.

Just my thoughts,

--J.

Alex Segura Jr.

12-04-2002, 08:01 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Arnout:


Can you give some more info on how long we have to stay tuned? I mean, I'll be here pretty much daily anyway, but D.G. is one of my favorites (quite because of his DD run) and I've been silently praying for his triumphant return. How about a teaser?
Please?
Hey, who remembers the great Batman^DD by Chichester & McDaniel. To me, probably one of the best 'intercompanies xovers'. Tho' Batman^Deathblow was pretty amazing too (but that's not really intercompany, is it?<hr></blockquote>

That's all I'm gonna say, but the wait won't be too long for the update. Gotta feel bad for anyone that has their comics peed on. The worst comic-pet thing I had to deal with was when my mom's cat decided it would be cool to shred my Amazing Spider-Man issues. Ergh.

Alex

Alex Segura Jr.

12-04-2002, 08:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by dollman:


I guess I'm one of the few who has no preference and can see the pros and cons of both. Typically I will buy a trade because I don't own the originals. Or if I do own the originals, and I want to re-read the whole story in one sitting, without having to re-open bagged comics.<hr></blockquote>

I've always found tpbs were handy when trying to build up back issues. I'm working on completing my Claremont stuff, so I find it's easier to just get them in tpb. But as for new stuff, I like getting the monthly installments.

Alex

SPEEDBOY

12-04-2002, 08:24 PM

I collect comics, but I collect them to read them. I've been out of comics for quite some time, and there are certain TPBs I would buy. The Ultimate Spidey hardcover is beuatiful (I'll get to hardcovers in minute) and I saw the Chuck Austen War Machine TPB at B&N the other day, and I never knew the series exsisted. Things like that I would buy, but like I said I like thie indvidual issues. I own a few TPBs, I think I have this old as hell Longshot one that was pretty good, but was printed on REALLY shitty paper---worse than newsprint.

As far as HCs I think it's elitism. The companiesa are saying, we're going to get this really good creative team together, with a really coll character and charge you $30. Too bad if you can't affors it. Even with comic prices now I can get 4 or 5 books for #30 bucks. This is one point that DC is much more guilty of than Marvel. That Greg Rucka and the guy who drew Marvel Knights Blak Widow (can't reemmber he's name, but he's good) doing Wonder Woman. It wasn't even oversized. What's the point of this? Why not a mini? Why no a TPB? Or God forbid you actually do a stroy in the monthly series. I certainly respect Jim Lee for going that route in Batman. Tehre are certain pros to HC too. If it's a monumental story I wouldn't mind picking up the HC.

I like glossy paper and all, but it doesn't feel like a comi to me. It's like a lesbian scene in a porno. At first it's really exciting, but after a while you're like, "That's just not right." :D Hell, newsprint would lower the price of comics too. I'm only 25, but maybe I'm getting old "Things were better in my day." I just don't like all the hi-tech stuff in comics. Give me my crappy newsprint, and colors that run!

SPEEDBOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RichCsigs

12-04-2002, 08:36 PM

Another plus for the tpb is that they take up less space than individual comics. I have 2 bookshelves filled with tpbs (I used to own a store) and I'm sure they take up a lot less room than all those individual issues in long boxes (along with all the other books I have that are not in tpb).

gOgIver

12-04-2002, 09:06 PM

Ann Nocenti is the only female comic book writer I have ever respected. :cool:

DarthRandall

12-04-2002, 09:35 PM

I've always wanted to see the flip side of Born Again - probably the best Daredevil story ever (I've become a huge Daredevil fan in the last 3 years or so). I knew it was out there, but due to lack of focus, didn't bother to check out where it was (OK, OK I was just lazy - sue me). Thanks, Newsarama.

As far as trades, who give a flying **** - as long as people are reading the stories. That's what comics are meant for - READING. Just today, I've finished my Mage and Stray Bullets collections, which I have in both trades and single issues. The Authority, Planetary, 100 Bullets, Transmetropolitan - I've got both single issues and trades of all of these. As long as I get to read every part of a good story, I don't give a poop what format it's in.

I've harped on this all over the web for years - COLLECTORS, NOT READERS, KILLED THIS MEDIUM. Whether you buy trades, single issues, borrow (or steal) your comics, read them first before you stick them in a bag or throw them on a bookshelf.

Alex Segura Jr.

12-04-2002, 09:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by DarthRandall:
[QB]I've always wanted to see the flip side of Born Again - probably the best Daredevil story ever (I've become a huge Daredevil fan in the last 3 years or so). I knew it was out there, but due to lack of focus, didn't bother to check out where it was (OK, OK I was just lazy - sue me). Thanks, Newsarama.
QB]<hr></blockquote>

I don't know if it can be classified as the "flip side" to Born Again, but glad the article turned you on to the arc. Weeks is probably one of the better pencillers out there today, IMHO.

Alex

J.C. Bakken

12-04-2002, 10:16 PM

Darth ain't the only one, Alex. I've seen the Fall of the Kingpin book on milehigh, but since I didn't know who wrote it, or what issues, if it in fact was from the series, so I havn't bought it.
And just this year, I've bought many of the DareDevil book:
Born again Lover's lost Lane Gangwar Marked for Murder Miller's Vis. vol 2. And more shal be added, and among them; this arc. and maybe even the issues before.

Gotta love those companywide sales at milehigh, and when the movie comes, DareDevil WILL beyond any doubt in my mind be on sale.
My timing for re-kindeling my flame for DareDevil is just perfect. :) :cool:

By the by, while I'm editing, great story Alex.

mauer

12-04-2002, 10:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Bill_Nolan:


I registered so that someone would actually answer your question...

- Bill<hr></blockquote>

Thanks Bill.

And as far as the whole TPB issue. I love comics, I've collected since I was 11 years old. That's 12 years now. And I love having the actual issues, but right now TPB's are so much more practical for me. I still buy current issues, but if I'm checking out a comic from the past I prefer TPB. I live in an apt and have minimal storage space. It's easier to get a TPB that I can put on my bookshelf.

m.

Taylor Porter

12-04-2002, 10:50 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
Seriously, if they're going to make each issue so valueless, why not just eliminate the middleman and just produce quarterly trades? not that I'd prefer that at all.... <hr></blockquote>

I would VERY MUCH prefer this.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the way it works already. Every few months, a new, big Daredevil book will come out, or a new Powers books, or the new X-Force. I don't have a clue what's going on in their monthlies, and don't really care. From my perspective, they ARE quarterly trades that publish new material.

I've just gotten into trades recently, but already the only comics I own are either in trade form or originals that are unlikely to be reprinted. I used to consider trades (and any reprint) to be "not really the comic." But what I like about comics are the stories, and as long as I get that, I'm fine. And if I get it on good paper, without ads, and at a better price, then I'm very happy.

Alex Segura Jr.

12-04-2002, 11:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by J.C. Bakken:
Darth ain't the only one, Alex. I've seen the Fall of the Kingpin book on milehigh, but since I didn't know who wrote it, or what issues, if it in fact was from the series, so I havn't bought it.
And just this year, I've bought many of the DareDevil book:
Born again Lover's lost Lane Gangwar Marked for Murder Miller's Vis. vol 2. And more shal be added, and among them; this arc. and maybe even the issues before.

Gotta love those companywide sales at milehigh, and when the movie comes, DareDevil WILL beyond any doubt in my mind be on sale.
My timing for re-kindeling my flame for DareDevil is just perfect. :) :cool:

By the by, while I'm editing, great story Alex.<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the kind words, J.C. It was a fun story to write. The Chichester/Weeks team was my first exposure to Daredevil, so getting to dig through my collection and re-read them (which I probably would have done anyway, story or not) was a real treat.

Alex

Nic

12-05-2002, 12:24 AM

'you know what i hate?

- When youre a dedicated collector of a single issue series and a trade paperback comes out with deleted ' not seen before' panels and other good stuff for $10 less than the comics collected did..

- When you buy a tpb volume 1 and the next tpb thats issued is collected volumes 1 & 2 and there is no stand alone volume 2 tpb issued..

Clem Snide

12-05-2002, 08:43 AM

The trouble with this 'Last Rites' or 'Fall of Kingpin' storyline is that it isn't credible. Daredevil CAN'T just "take the Kingpin down". The Kingpin can only be taken down in a manner such as we saw in the recent 'Underboss' arc, by an insurrection from his own side.Or possibly by a media scandal, as in Ultimate Spider-Man.

The reason 'Born Again' was such a groundbreaking storyline was that it established that large sections of the supposedly legitimate authorities were rotten to the core (a theme which recurred in works such as Miller's DKI, O'Neil's The Question and latterly in The Authority, amongst numerous others).

Kingpin, who enjoys -shall we say- fraternal relations with this network, could manipulate it to destroy DD, and it would also act to protect his interests in time of crisis. In 'Born Again', Kingpin's advance is only stopped when he uses contacts in the military to launch a helicoper assault in NYC, and a consequent media scandal forces him to pull in his horns.

So 'nuff respect to Dan Chichester, but in my schema of DD continuity 'Last Rites' is apocryphal, almost a 'What If...'.

Kingpin's status as being above the law for most purposes inevitably poses problems for writers. In the aforementioned 'Underboss', the events of 'Born Again' are glossed over as "having blown over in a few months", which is probably the least contradictory way to deal with that segment of DD history.

Tue Sorensen

12-05-2002, 10:17 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Chad Anderson:
Whatever happened to Chichester? What's he up to these days?<hr></blockquote>

He posts on the newsgroups once in a while, so I guess he's still around. Dunno if he's writing comics, though.

A point of confusion about the article: Are "Last Rites" and "Fall of the Kingpin" the same story? If not, if #297-300 is "Last Rites", then what is "Fall of the Kingpin"? I certainly think of #297-300 as Fall of the Kingpin, but my memory could be playing tricks.

I'm pretty sure there is a Fall of the Kingpin TPB, seeing as it sits on my shelf.

Also, as an "older-style" (but not oldest-style!) fan, I have to say that I think DD #300 marked the last really good issue of that title (except for diverse fill-ins, and arguably vol. 2). If you want the good stories, read up until vol. 1 #300. After that the title never recovers. Just my opinion.

JimHughs4

12-05-2002, 10:37 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Clem Snide:
The trouble with this 'Last Rites' or 'Fall of Kingpin' storyline is that it isn't credible. Daredevil CAN'T just "take the Kingpin down". The Kingpin can only be taken down in a manner such as we saw in the recent 'Underboss' arc, by an insurrection from his own side.Or possibly by a media scandal, as in Ultimate Spider-Man.

The reason 'Born Again' was such a groundbreaking storyline was that it established that large sections of the supposedly legitimate authorities were rotten to the core (a theme which recurred in works such as Miller's DKI, O'Neil's The Question and latterly in The Authority, amongst numerous others).

Kingpin, who enjoys -shall we say- fraternal relations with this network, could manipulate it to destroy DD, and it would also act to protect his interests in time of crisis. In 'Born Again', Kingpin's advance is only stopped when he uses contacts in the military to launch a helicoper assault in NYC, and a consequent media scandal forces him to pull in his horns.

So 'nuff respect to Dan Chichester, but in my schema of DD continuity 'Last Rites' is apocryphal, almost a 'What If...'.

Kingpin's status as being above the law for most purposes inevitably poses problems for writers. In the aforementioned 'Underboss', the events of 'Born Again' are glossed over as "having blown over in a few months", which is probably the least contradictory way to deal with that segment of DD history.<hr></blockquote>

If I remember right, Clem, DD approached honest individuals in this story, circumventing Kingpin's control of the New York police and media. It just extended the concept of man fighting an unwinnable battle to several people working together to make that battle winnable. Not a bad theme, I think.

SPEEDBOY

12-05-2002, 11:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by DarthRandall:

As far as trades, who give a flying **** - as long as people are reading the stories. That's what comics are meant for - READING<hr></blockquote>

I stand by everything I said, as far as my personal opinion, but good point brah. I guess that pretty much sums up the whole argument.

Speaking of TPB's and Frank Miller the Ronin TPB is awesome. I have a fairly old edition, and it's great.

SPEEDBOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alex Segura Jr.

12-05-2002, 12:06 PM

Alex Segura Jr.

12-05-2002, 12:10 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Clem Snide:
The trouble with this 'Last Rites' or 'Fall of Kingpin' storyline is that it isn't credible. Daredevil CAN'T just "take the Kingpin down". The Kingpin can only be taken down in a manner such as we saw in the recent 'Underboss' arc, by an insurrection from his own side.Or possibly by a media scandal, as in Ultimate Spider-Man.

The reason 'Born Again' was such a groundbreaking storyline was that it established that large sections of the supposedly legitimate authorities were rotten to the core (a theme which recurred in works such as Miller's DKI, O'Neil's The Question and latterly in The Authority, amongst numerous others).

Kingpin, who enjoys -shall we say- fraternal relations with this network, could manipulate it to destroy DD, and it would also act to protect his interests in time of crisis. In 'Born Again', Kingpin's advance is only stopped when he uses contacts in the military to launch a helicoper assault in NYC, and a consequent media scandal forces him to pull in his horns.

So 'nuff respect to Dan Chichester, but in my schema of DD continuity 'Last Rites' is apocryphal, almost a 'What If...'.

Kingpin's status as being above the law for most purposes inevitably poses problems for writers. In the aforementioned 'Underboss', the events of 'Born Again' are glossed over as "having blown over in a few months", which is probably the least contradictory way to deal with that segment of DD history.<hr></blockquote>

I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't classify Last Rites as a "What If?" story, by any means. In the end, you know the Kingpin is going to come back, in some way. Just like you know he's going to come back after Underboss.

What makes the story interesting are the Hows: How is Daredevil going to bring him down? How will the Kingpin come back? At least, that's what made it interesting for me.

Alex

Alex Segura Jr.

12-05-2002, 12:12 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Tue Sorensen:


He posts on the newsgroups once in a while, so I guess he's still around. Dunno if he's writing comics, though.

A point of confusion about the article: Are "Last Rites" and "Fall of the Kingpin" the same story? If not, if #297-300 is "Last Rites", then what is "Fall of the Kingpin"? I certainly think of #297-300 as Fall of the Kingpin, but my memory could be playing tricks.

I'm pretty sure there is a Fall of the Kingpin TPB, seeing as it sits on my shelf.

Also, as an "older-style" (but not oldest-style!) fan, I have to say that I think DD #300 marked the last really good issue of that title (except for diverse fill-ins, and arguably vol. 2). If you want the good stories, read up until vol. 1 #300. After that the title never recovers. Just my opinion.<hr></blockquote>

Yep. Same story.

Alex

KACH

12-05-2002, 12:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Tue Sorensen:

If you want the good stories, read up until vol. 1 #300. After that the title never recovers. Just my opinion.<hr></blockquote>

I'm confused. Are you saying that NONE of the stories in DD Vol. 2 (Marvel Knights) come close to DD #300 & prior?? To me, DD has NEVER been as good as it is now.

--J.

TylerS

12-05-2002, 12:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hunter:
[QB]
Trades are more durable, as well.
<hr></blockquote>

Comics are more durable. TPBs can fall apart easily and are impossible to put back together. I recently bought a TPB that became unglued the moment I opened it.

I've had comics last 30 years with no problems. Take a look at 30 year old paperbacks and see how easily the pages come out. If something goes wrong with a comic, it's easy to put back together. Put a new staple in, maybe a little tape. When the pages come out of tpbs, it's hopeless.

There are a lot of advantages to tpbs, but people that only buy comics that way are missing a great deal.

I also believe that the over production of tpbs could kill the industry. While our numbers are dwindling, there are still enough month to month comic buyers out there. We are the ones supporting the comic stores and will buy regularly.

TylerS

12-05-2002, 12:51 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SPEEDBOY:


I like glossy paper and all, but it doesn't feel like a comi to me. It's like a lesbian scene in a porno. At first it's really exciting, but after a while you're like, "That's just not right." :D Hell, newsprint would lower the price of comics too. I'm only 25, but maybe I'm getting old "Things were better in my day." I just don't like all the hi-tech stuff in comics. Give me my crappy newsprint, and colors that run!

SPEEDBOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!<hr></blockquote>

Maybe my problem is I like lesbian porno scens, but honestly the one thing I'm NOT nostalgic for is cheap paper are shoddy printing.

I just picked up Power Company #10, which is a GREAT comic. It also has some pretty cheap paper; maybe you would that :)

goob

12-05-2002, 02:53 PM

Me I am neutral on this whole tpb debate. For me there are some books I run to get every month then there are some that I bought the first few issues of (like Morrison's New X-men) and wasn't that captivated. Then a friend will tell me how great an issue is (New X-men "Imperial") and I'll just buy the trade to catch up then buy the issues between then and now. And frankly when I am bored on sundays I'll just buy a trade that sounds cool. Plus I want to have shelves full of trades!

goob

12-05-2002, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by SPEEDBOY

At first it's really exciting, but after a while you're like, "That's just not right."

????What isn't right about lesbian porno. Watching a dude bang a chick is disturbing with all the scrote action - NASTY - I'll take watching 2 chicks anyday! Maybe 3!

Raphe Cheli

12-05-2002, 03:53 PM

I first met Lee when he moved into the area where I had grown up, just around the time he started drawing Daredevil. When I came home from college one summer and returned to my job at the local comic shop, we met, and have been pretty good friends ever since.

Looking back, I remember how excited he was sending out those pencilled pages to be inked and seeing the issues come out, and I was pretty excited that I could go over to his studio ever few days to shoot the shit and watch him pencil. At the time, it seemed to him, that he had finally made it as a comic artist (after years of New Wave, the Destroyer, Dr. Strange back-ups, and Justice), and, I think, he's been one of the top story-tellers since that time.

Of course, don't tell him I said any of these nice things, or I'd never hear the end of it.

Kintoun

12-05-2002, 05:21 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nic:
[QB]'you know what i hate?

- When youre a dedicated collector of a single issue series and a trade paperback comes out with deleted ' not seen before' panels and other good stuff for $10 less than the comics collected did..

Yeah, that's extremely frustrating. I bought G.I. Joe Battle Files #1-3 for $5.95 each and I'm quite annoyed that January's Battle Files: Ultimate Sourcebook Trade Paperback will include brand new character entries that weren't in previous issues. The individual volumes contained 48 pages each and the TPB is advertised as having 160 pages so that means Devil's Due might have created 16 extra Joe/Cobra bios. That would be just enough material to convince me to grudgingly buy it for $14.95.

Kintoun

Arnout

12-05-2002, 06:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by KACH:


I do. I still have it. My favorite Marvel/DC crossover. Murdock went to school with Harvey Dent. Nice touch.

As for the article, that was the first DD story ard I EVER read & I enjoyed it. But my dog urinated on my copy of issue 300. So, I want to pick up that trade if I can find it.

About TPBs: Yeah, to each their own. Some stuff I'll get in TPB, some stuff I'm too much of a fanboy to wait for. I mainly get TPBs well after the arc has ended for series that I never heard about when they first started (I'll be getting Fables in TPB form since I had no idea what the book was until it became "hot"). And no, they aren't hurting the industry. They are allowing the industry to spread through on-line bookstores & regular retail book stores. If someone buys DD Visionaries: Kevin Smith from Amazon.com, then walks into a comic store to get the rest of the series b/c he/she liked it, that's a HUGE plus in my book. And especially with Marvel shipping every other issue of a mini series 3 months late, I'd rather wait for the trades most of the time anyway.

Just my thoughts,

--J.<hr></blockquote>

SPEEDBOY

12-05-2002, 09:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by goob:


????What isn't right about lesbian porno. Watching a dude bang a chick is disturbing with all the scrote action - NASTY - I'll take watching 2 chicks anyday! Maybe 3!<hr></blockquote>

Hey, two light sockets look great on the wall, but you need a plug to make the light go on. :D

SPEEDBOY!!!!!!!!!!

Hdefined

12-06-2002, 02:59 AM

[quote]Originally posted by SPEEDBOY:


Hey, two light sockets look great on the wall, but you need a plug to make the light go on. :D

SPEEDBOY!!!!!!!!!!<hr></blockquote>

uh . . . ?

wow, you need to find a girlfriend. or something. rather than whatever it is you currently do. like making the weirdest metaphors possible.

Academic

12-06-2002, 11:11 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:

I do think it’s sad to see so many collectors saying “I’m only buying trades now.” That hurts the sales of the actual comic. No wonder the industry is hurting now.
<hr></blockquote>

Trades don't hurt the industry; they save it.

Publishers have already paid for this material when they printed the single issue. Putting in a trade paperback brings in extra revenue from that expense.

Vertigo lives by this. Order numbers for most Vertigo books don't suggest a high profit level, but books like Preacher and Sandman have returned their investment multiple times by now.

Academic

12-06-2002, 11:49 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
If you're going to write a monthly, make the story monthly, use cliffhangers and create subplots that bring the readers back each month.

But New Marvel, what they're doing kills me. Take Ultimate X-Men. The first two trades have virtually NO subplot whatsoever.

There's no ongoing feel. It's written to begin at issue #1, then almost completely conclude at issue #6, and then start again with #7.

Seriously, if they're going to make each issue so valueless, why not just eliminate the middleman and just produce quarterly trades? not that I'd prefer that at all, because I wouldn't, but comics aren't what they used to be<hr></blockquote>

I've trimmed this valid criticism of trades down to its most relevant point.

Trades are enclosed narratives. You have a start, you have a finish, and you have a pretty good chance that the reader is reading this title for the first time.

Three years ago, the only ongoing monthly in serial trades was coming out of DC: JLA.

JLA didn't have to worry about subplots, since all but one of its characters had their own ongoing series when it started. (DC even tried to reconsile that by introducing a Martian Manhunter monthly.) JLA, therefore, was a group of heroes called together to fight this threat before going back to their ordinary lives.

A lot's changed since then. Trades have moved out of the comic shops and onto bookstore shelves. The result? Trade sales now account for a bigger percentage than they have, and continue to grow.

It makes sense for Marvel and Crossgen to put their monthly series out in trades. Both publishers pay their creators to produce a monthly comic that gains them a profit; then they take that already commissioned work, collect in a trade paperback, and continue to profit from it over a much longer lifespan.

Readers who love a particular trade may not want to wait for the next trade and go to the monthlies; readers who just get into a monthly and want to catch up on recent events can now have easy access to them because trades -- unlike back issues -- are alway available and always the same, affordable price.

The best place to start a serial trade is the first issue. That way, and subplots which build (such as the slow revelation about Simon Archard's previous partner in Mark Waid's Ruse at Crossgen) can be caught completely by the reader who's kept up with the series in trade or individual issue.

Marvel doesn't have that luxury completely because books like New X-Men, Daredevil and Amazing Spider-Man have come into trades quite late. Movies help teach the new readers who these characters are, but there's still a gap of knowledge.

It takes a good writer to write individual issues towards a trade. It takes a talented writer to be able to weave plots together. Some writers are better able to do it than others: Mark Millar doesn't seem able to keep anything at bay, whereas Bendis' Alias or Rucka's Queen & Country are much better at letting tensions build from closed story to closed story.

By moving into trades late, "new" Marvel is forced to find talented and capable writers who can balance between individual issues and trades (like Kevin Smith's Daredevil run or Jenkins' Inhumans narrative).

We -- as readers of the monthlies -- may find the present growing pains to be just that: painful. Bendis' Daredevil is compelling reading and certainly chock full of character, but there's no strong momentum like the story this thread looked at.

But, that said, it will improve. It has to.

My biggest disappointment with "new" Marvel isn't the fact that they're aiming for trades. I now have a bookshelf of very nice hardcovers from them.

My biggest problem is the numbering of hardcovers and trades on ongoing series. Daredevil's new hardcover (issues 26-37) is numbered "2," reminding us of Kevin Smith's Daredevil being "1" -- but escaping the possibility that the David Mack Echo story (soon be returned to) will be collected. Moreover, "Daredevil Legends" and "Daredevil Visionaries" leaves little spot for the possiblity that this story -- "Last Rites" -- and its sequel -- "Kingpin's Return" -- will see a trade that fits in nicely in the numbering soon.

D.G. Chichester

12-06-2002, 12:25 PM

Last Rites was the title we used to umbrella the arc in the actual DD issues.

Fall of the Kingpin was the 2x4 title editorial slapped on the trade. More descriptive, less evocative.

Same story both ways.

best,

DGC

<<A point of confusion about the article: Are "Last Rites" and "Fall of the Kingpin" the same story? If not, if #297-300 is "Last Rites", then what is "Fall of the Kingpin"? I certainly think of #297-300 as Fall of the Kingpin, but my memory could be playing tricks.>>

D.G. Chichester

12-06-2002, 12:29 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Clem Snide:
The trouble with this 'Last Rites' or 'Fall of Kingpin' storyline is that it isn't credible. Daredevil CAN'T just "take the Kingpin down".<hr></blockquote>

I think your analysis of a situation like this is interesting.

But I'd still contend it's every bit as credible for a DD to take down a Kingpin as it is for a hypersensitive blind guy to go skyscraper swinging on a billy club in the first place.

;)

best,

DGC

Taylor Porter

12-06-2002, 01:24 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Academic:

Daredevil's new hardcover (issues 26-37) is numbered "2," reminding us of Kevin Smith's Daredevil being "1" -- but escaping the possibility that the David Mack Echo story (soon be returned to) will be collected. <hr></blockquote>

That story already has been collected. It's called Parts of A Hole, and I think it came out last February. I have it, and it's swell.

The Blue Spider

12-06-2002, 01:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Academic:


I've trimmed this valid criticism of trades down to its most relevant point.

Trades are enclosed narratives. You have a start, you have a finish, and you have a pretty good chance that the reader is reading this title for the first time.

Three years ago, the only ongoing monthly in serial trades was coming out of DC: JLA.

JLA didn't have to worry about subplots, since all but one of its characters had their own ongoing series when it started. (DC even tried to reconsile that by introducing a Martian Manhunter monthly.) JLA, therefore, was a group of heroes called together to fight this threat before going back to their ordinary lives.

A lot's changed since then. Trades have moved out of the comic shops and onto bookstore shelves. The result? Trade sales now account for a bigger percentage than they have, and continue to grow.

It makes sense for Marvel and Crossgen to put their monthly series out in trades. Both publishers pay their creators to produce a monthly comic that gains them a profit; then they take that already commissioned work, collect in a trade paperback, and continue to profit from it over a much longer lifespan.

Readers who love a particular trade may not want to wait for the next trade and go to the monthlies; readers who just get into a monthly and want to catch up on recent events can now have easy access to them because trades -- unlike back issues -- are alway available and always the same, affordable price.

The best place to start a serial trade is the first issue. That way, and subplots which build (such as the slow revelation about Simon Archard's previous partner in Mark Waid's Ruse at Crossgen) can be caught completely by the reader who's kept up with the series in trade or individual issue.

Marvel doesn't have that luxury completely because books like New X-Men, Daredevil and Amazing Spider-Man have come into trades quite late. Movies help teach the new readers who these characters are, but there's still a gap of knowledge.

It takes a good writer to write individual issues towards a trade. It takes a talented writer to be able to weave plots together. Some writers are better able to do it than others: Mark Millar doesn't seem able to keep anything at bay, whereas Bendis' Alias or Rucka's Queen & Country are much better at letting tensions build from closed story to closed story.

By moving into trades late, "new" Marvel is forced to find talented and capable writers who can balance between individual issues and trades (like Kevin Smith's Daredevil run or Jenkins' Inhumans narrative).

We -- as readers of the monthlies -- may find the present growing pains to be just that: painful. Bendis' Daredevil is compelling reading and certainly chock full of character, but there's no strong momentum like the story this thread looked at.

But, that said, it will improve. It has to.

My biggest disappointment with "new" Marvel isn't the fact that they're aiming for trades. I now have a bookshelf of very nice hardcovers from them.

My biggest problem is the numbering of hardcovers and trades on ongoing series. Daredevil's new hardcover (issues 26-37) is numbered "2," reminding us of Kevin Smith's Daredevil being "1" -- but escaping the possibility that the David Mack Echo story (soon be returned to) will be collected. Moreover, "Daredevil Legends" and "Daredevil Visionaries" leaves little spot for the possiblity that this story -- "Last Rites" -- and its sequel -- "Kingpin's Return" -- will see a trade that fits in nicely in the numbering soon.<hr></blockquote>

David Mack's story was collected a long time ago under the title "Parts of a Hole"

classicist

12-06-2002, 02:09 PM

So far, it seems that everyone has been neglecting the "bookcase factor" in tpbs and hardcovers. People that wouldn't buy comics- because they wouldn't want to have them floating around- may buy the hardcovers or tpbs. In that, at least, it's a way for comics to get into new markets- and for the publishers to get money they otherwise wouldn't.
And for anyone who likes the feel of the old newsprint- myself included- the Marvel Essential editions are about the best value on the market. Fifteen bucks for the entire Dark Phoenix saga- doesn't get any better than that.

Hdefined

12-06-2002, 02:10 PM

AND so was the 4-issue Bendis arc "Waking Up" (although the Gale arc is noticibly absent). Still, his point was that the "trade numbering" is abysmal

Raphe Cheli

12-06-2002, 02:47 PM

My problem with the trade mentality that's running through comics is that stories are getting longer (in pages) without becoming longer (in story). Bruce Jones' Hulk is a good example. Things are spread out over 4 or 5 issues, not because that's the length that's merited, but because it's easier to fit it into a trade paperback. And that's not what I think -- that came from the horse's (editor) mouth.

Look at Captain America. Does anyone think that this storyline should've taken 5 issues already -- and still not be finished (and that it won't be plopped into a trade before too long)? Daredevil's the same -- page after page of plodding story, so it can coveniently be packaged up into a $17.95 book.

As far as trades saving the industry -- I don't know about that. Sales on non-manga comics are still pretty low, and I still wonder if the industry has been saved or merely put on life-support until the plug's pulled.

Tue Sorensen

12-07-2002, 12:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by KACH:
I'm confused. Are you saying that NONE of the stories in DD Vol. 2 (Marvel Knights) come close to DD #300 & prior?? To me, DD has NEVER been as good as it is now.<hr></blockquote>If you read the post, you'll notice that I said except arguably for vol. 2. Personally, I haven't enjoyed vol. 2 very much at all. I hated the death of Karen Page, who was one of the most interesting supporting characters in all the Marvel Universe. The Echo storyline was the highpoint. I haven't been buying the title for the last several months, but I'm thinking of picking it up again soon. Regardless, in the old days you could always expect a decent story month in and month out. Back then, who ever imagined that the book would get so unstable that one would hardly even care to give it a look? No, I definitely prefer the pre-300 days. Back then they knew what they were doing. Now they're experimenting wildly, being neither here nor there.

- Tue

Hdefined

12-07-2002, 02:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Raphe Cheli:
My problem with the trade mentality that's running through comics is that stories are getting longer (in pages) without becoming longer (in story). Bruce Jones' Hulk is a good example. Things are spread out over 4 or 5 issues, not because that's the length that's merited, but because it's easier to fit it into a trade paperback. And that's not what I think -- that came from the horse's (editor) mouth.

Look at Captain America. Does anyone think that this storyline should've taken 5 issues already -- and still not be finished (and that it won't be plopped into a trade before too long)? Daredevil's the same -- page after page of plodding story, so it can coveniently be packaged up into a $17.95 book.

As far as trades saving the industry -- I don't know about that. Sales on non-manga comics are still pretty low, and I still wonder if the industry has been saved or merely put on life-support until the plug's pulled.<hr></blockquote>

You summed up exactly how I feel. It seems writers are considered "better" when they know how to "pace things out." Ugh. For example, Mark Millar was gonna stuff all of the first 5 issues of Ultimates into 2 issues. That would have been perfectly fine with me. Hell, they could have taken any given issue, and crammed all the dialogue into half the space. We're definitely losing story because instead we're getting "pacing", "character growth", and letting the artist "flaunt his stuff."

Ok, take the past year of the Black Panther (before issue #50). Enemy of the State II was 5 issues long, but CRAMMED full of plot. Yet, there was still room for the obligatory splash page or two. However, Priest knows how to pace a story well, letting each issue have it's own theme, it's own significance, it's turning points and plot twists that, without any given issue, you lack the story. Can the same really be said of "trade Marvel" these days?

Perfect Strangler

12-07-2002, 08:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SPEEDBOY:
As far as HCs I think it's elitism. The companiesa are saying, we're going to get this really good creative team together, with a really coll character and charge you $30. Too bad if you can't affors it. Even with comic prices now I can get 4 or 5 books for #30 bucks. This is one point that DC is much more guilty of than Marvel. That Greg Rucka and the guy who drew Marvel Knights Blak Widow (can't reemmber he's name, but he's good) doing Wonder Woman. It wasn't even oversized. What's the point of this? Why not a mini? Why no a TPB? Or God forbid you actually do a stroy in the monthly series. I certainly respect Jim Lee for going that route in Batman. Tehre are certain pros to HC too. If it's a monumental story I wouldn't mind picking up the HC.
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Some HCs are actually cheaper than TPBs. Take New X-Men HC for example: it costs $30 and it collects the same material as E is for Extinction and Imperial TPBs, which cost $13 and $20, respectively. (Though I realize you are talking mainly about original HCs, not the collections of previously published material - I just wanted to make a point that hardcover collections can be cheaper than trades.)

Academic

12-09-2002, 02:36 PM