A LEAGUE OF CHANGES: JOE KELLY ON THE JLA's NEW LINEUP

[MattBrady]

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/JLACVR78.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/JLACVR78-thumb.jpg" width="175" height="260" border="0" align="right"></a>With the Obsidian Age wrapped up and Aquaman back in the present safe and sound, the JLA isn’t looking to rest on its laurels. As the cover to February’s issue #78 showed, a lineup change is in the offing, and from appearances, it looks as if the Big 7 won’t be the only heroes on the team.

From the cover, it can be gleaned that Faith (who first appeared in JLA #69), as well as Manitou Raven (the Apache shaman from the Obsidian Age storyline, who’s a nod to Apache Chief from Super Friends), and Major Disaster will be joining, while Kyle Rayner’s Green Lantern will be replaced by John Stewart. Something old, something new, something borrowed…all the League is missing someone blue.

Newsarama: First off, the cover to issue #78 looks a little slim - is the lineup as shown the full team?

Joe Kelly: No – there are more guys than shown on the team - more than eight. I’m loosening the reins a little as far as who’s on the team for a little while, and expanding past the Big 7 to try and get a little fresh blood in, and try some new things, but also obviously, keep those guys around. Although some of the characters who are conspicuously absent on the cover are going to be absent for a while.

NRAMA: Such as the Martian Manhunter?

JK: Could be.

NRAMA: Well – the other character that seems almost a little odd to be missing, especially in light of the recent storyline is Aquaman. After all, the League just went through all this trouble to rescue him, and he shows his appreciation by not rejoining?

JK: Right – don’t worry – all of the big questions get addressed in #76 as to who’s on the team. As we’re all hamstrung constantly because of solicits, if people aren’t visible in that lineup, you find out why in #76. On top of that, as I said, there are one or two guys who are just missing from the cover shot on #78, who are sticking around.

As far as the Aquaman stuff, I would just point people to his ongoing series. It’s one of the tough balancing acts with the JLA – they’re not fully my toys, so when something comes along, and they tell me they’re going to do a big relaunch for Aquaman, and they want it to come out of a story I’m telling, it’s like, “Great – when do I get to use him?” Well, he has to go through X, Y, and Z for a little while. Sometimes it takes a little while for that kind of stuff to kick back, but there usually is a master plan for most of it.

NRAMA: In that sense, is John Stewart “yours” to use in JLA now, or is Ben [Raab] going to be using him in Green Lantern?

JK: I think he’s going to be mine for a while. We haven’t explicitly discussed how tightly we’re going to link those guys. There will be a little bit of a hiatus for Kyle in Green Lantern, and John will be in both books for a while, but I’m not exactly sure for how long. I think by the time I bring John in, in #76, Kyle will be heading off into space.

NRAMA: Looking at the overall lineup again, this is pretty much the first time since Grant Morrison’s restart of the series that the team isn’t based on the core of the Big 7. Traditionally with the book, it’s a tightrope time – while there have been runs with second tier characters as members that have been very successful, there are also runs where characters like Vibe and Gypsy showed up, which seemed to start the death knell for the team – and the series. Was it your plan when you came on to go for at least x amount of time with the big guns before adding some new faces?

JK: Yeah – definitely. You don’t want to come in and wreck what people have set up before you, and what the fans like. You have to build up that respect base first. But that being said, I don’t think anybody sits down and says, “I want to take something that works and throw it in the trash, just to try my own thing.”

For me, the types of stories that I want to tell require a little bit of an emotional shakeup within the group, and it’s kind of hard to do some of those things with characters that I have to share. So, when you’re allowed to mess round a little bit. Manhunter’s a great example – you’ll see in December why he’s taking off for a while, and I know some people will go ballistic over it, because he’s never been out of the League since it was restarted. But, two issues later, you’ll see what he’s doing, even though he’s not in the League.

So, in the same way that Batman was out of the League for a while during Mark’s run, that’s how these guys are “out” of the League. In terms of the new characters, it’s really just an opportunity to try some new things and see what sticks, and set up some new concepts and spin off the stories. The Big 7 will always be around, though – when we need Aquaman, he’ll come back. But yeah – overall, it’s a tightrope to walk. I hope people will take the chance with it. I’ve seen the boards and know there’s some questioning going on out there for example, as to why someone like Faith would stick around.

NRAMA: Now that you mention her – given the track record of recently created characters designed to fit in with the Justice League, Faith and Manitou Raven almost have a targets on their backs, don’t they?

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/Manitou.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/Manitou_t.jpg" width="175" height="220" align="left" border="0" alt="Manitou Raven summons the League from the dead during the Obsidian Age"></a>JK: Well, not really. Speaking of Manitou Raven a little, as people have figured out by now – he’s Apache Chief. As far as I’m concerned, he’s a Justice League character who has never been in the book, so here was an opportunity to introduce him in a different way, and suddenly reveal to people that he’s Apache Chief, and he’s a different kind of magic user instead of Zatanna.

NRAMA: Okay, but putting Apache Chief in the team, albeit in a different form – while it’s cool for people around your age who remember the character from the Super Friends cartoon - some younger readers who see the character could quite easily come away with the impression of “So what?”

JK: Well, they get to learn a little history from us old fogeys…

NRAMA: Well, yeah, but isn’t there a touch of vanity almost, in doing that, adding something to the team that meant a lot to you, personally?

JK: I guess you could say that, but for me, vanity would be disbanding the League and doing whatever I wanted, or playing these characters completely differently than they should be played, for example, making Superman a dick, just because it would be funnier. I’ve definitely seen that done on books before, and I don’t like it. To me, the introduction of Manitou, with the nod to Apache Chief was a chance for an expansion. Zatanna’s the only magic user that anyone ever uses with them. I love her as a character, but at the time we were looking to change the makeup of the team, the Vertigo project with her was in full swing, as well as some other stuff that’s not yet known about.

So, adding Manitou was just a chance to do something new and show people something different, really. To me, it’s the same level of vanity of thinking you’re able to tell a JLA story in the first place. I think new characters have to show up, and not just new villains, to mess with the status quo a little bit, to allow for opportunities for things like romance which you’re not supposed to have between characters who already know each other and are married. Conflicts, which you certainly get in the JLA already, can now be spun out in new ways. And really, they’re just some new toys to play with – if some of them don’t work, they’ll go away, and if they do work, they’ll stick around. Luckily, we’re in a medium that’s flexible enough that you can experiment.

NRAMA: And in this case, change is good?

JK: “Good” will be decided by the fans, but change isn’t to be feared. While it may be seen by some as the height of vanity for me to bring in a character that I knew growing up, I’m actually afraid of the opposite condition - I’m more concerned about complacency – not taking any chances, or not taking any risks. The whole concept of “if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it” is one that I have no interest in. Why bother, if that’s the case? Everything can be tweaked, and everything can be messed with, and for ongoing drama, you have to mess with the audience and string people along – give them some of what they want, but try something new. I love those elements, and that’s what I like to infuse into the series when I can.

NRAMA: Speaking of other changes you’re making on the team, was the inclusion of John Stewart in any way suggested from above, since the JLA cartoon has him as a member? Peter David has pretty much said that a big reason for the revamp of the Teen Titans was to have a comic that was closer to the cartoon version that’s coming up. Were you under the same pressure?

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/faith.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/faith_t.jpg" width="175" height="229" align="right" border="0" alt="Faith and Major Disaster at their first JLA meeting"></a>JKJ: Yeah, but not in such as conspiratorial way as it might sound. To the degree that DC is a business, and Warner Brothers is a business, and they’re in the business of creating recognizable franchises, making the comic look a little bit like the cartoon is not such a bad thing. That said, I definitely have the latitude that if I don’t like a suggestion, I can definitely say no thanks. When the John Stewart conversion came up, Hawkgirl was mentioned as well, and I wouldn’t mind having her around, because I think I could do some cool stuff with her, and it would be nice to balance her out against Wonder Woman, because they’re really not the same character. If I can keep John Stewart for a little while, and not have to call in every time I want to use him in a different way, then I’d love to have him. Any character whose destiny I can define on my own is a big plus for me.

So, sure, there were discussions about adding both John Stewart and Hawkgirl, but it really wasn’t in that moustache-twirling way like it might look. It is funny though – people think that I’m being screwed with, and can’t do what I want, but any time you work with somebody else’s characters, you have to take a certain responsibility to what they want. Anybody who says different is either just lucky that no one is paying attention, or lying. It’s not your stuff. You try and put your stink on it for sure, and you hope that you do something that people like so you get to do a little bit more, but at the end of the day, if they call up and tell you that Superman has to eat Rice Chex all month, because they just signed a deal with them, then he’s got to eat Rice Chex. Luckily, that’s never happened.

NRAMA: Keep your fingers crossed. Speaking to your last addition to the team - Major Disaster, are you looking to give a little bit of an Avengers vibe to the team, opening its arms to a reformed villain?

JK: Well, he has been on the team before. When I was looking on the giant lists of who has ever been on the team, I saw that he had been on there, so there’s precedent for him being there, and I had done that story previously in Action after Our Worlds at War, where Superman offered him the chance to reform, so it was great serendipity to get to play with that.

Again, part of his membership is due to the conflict angle that we couldn’t have really had on the team before his arrival. There hasn’t been too much of that yet, just because the Obsidian Age story was so big and plot heavy. There were 21 characters at one point, and was kind of hard to explore the characters in depth. But the JLA doesn’t have a Wolverine –type character, and not that he’s Wolverine, but he is someone with a bit of darkness in their background, and that’s nice to have to play with in someone other than Batman. And it certainly is a little bit of cross-pollination between my two books to have that Superman story pay off in JLA.

When we come down off the Obsidian Age stuff, it’s still kind of chaos, so #76 is a very quiet issue, with everybody getting ready to go their own ways, and we don’t necessarily have a lot of scenes in the first arc after that, where they’re just sitting around and chatting, but there will be a moment or two between Superman and Major Disaster.

NRAMA: Is the new lineup going to be it for a while, or is it still flexible in regards to more members joining? Black Vulcan and El Dorado are probably free…along with the Wonder Twins.

JK: Eh – I was always partial to Wendy and Marvin. Seriously, though, the lineup will stay fairly steady after this – for a while.

NRAMA: Looking to wind things up, with everything you’ve done to the team and members in the Obsidian Age, are you looking at trying to top yourself, or shift focus to tell slightly different stories?

JK: Maybe it’s post 9-11, but I became a lot more interested in watching people deal with one another, who are all heroes in their own right, but all have their own perspective, than dealing with untouchable gods and goddesses. That’s partly why when you see these team shifts and how the members develop over the course of time, 90% of them have a real humanistic base to them. So yeah, I’m looking to tell slightly different stories than the Obsidian Age.

NRAMA: So what’s on tap?

JK: The first post-Obsidian Age arc will show the JLA getting proactive – they find out about a threat that’s light-years away from earth, sort of by accident, and they decide to go out and face it before it’s ever going to bother them, and there are repercussions for making that decision. Everyone’s always wanting to see a more proactive League, and this will be their chance.

NRAMA: Will that allow you an exploration of sorts of the League in the same way as Action #775 was for Superman, giving you the chance to answer the question why the League is a reactionary force, for the most part?

JK: Not quite in that story arc, but the whole year will reflect that feel a little. When you do introduce new characters, there are very legitimate questions – why would this person be in the League? Why does, Faith, for example, deserve membership when other people weren’t even asked? Over the next year, I’m really going to have a throughline of looking at why the League does exist and what each member is about. It probably won’t be too apparent at the beginning of the year, but by the end of the year, that will be a clear focus.

As far as specific upcoming plans, we’re doing another big story next summer that will have biweekly shipping, and as of right now, Doug [Mahnke] is going to draw the entire thing. There will be an arc before it that someone else will draw, that will hopefully give him the lead time he needs to hit all six issues. The story is as important as The Obsidian Age story, but the scope is a little more refined – it’s not going to be crazy time jumping again.

NRAMA: So you’re not killing Aquaman again, and bringing him back as an annual event?

JK: No – that’s not the plan [laughs]. The story is going to be really cool, and I’m really excited about it. It’s something that I’ve been building towards in my run, and its taken almost two years to get to it. A lot of the questions that are set up in the post Obsidian Age stuff will be dealt with in that story.

We’re also going to be using Faith as a character, showing why she’s got the juice to be on the team, both from a power level, and from a background level. We’re going to learn more about where she comes from, and why the people who she left behind want her back. That’s going to introduce some new villains, and guys who will definitely screw with the League over the course of the next year – very, very nasty people. Rumor has it that they might even people the people who gathered the Elite. They’re going to be a lot of fun.

Again, this gathering of heroes, who are at the same time both gods and men, is really interesting to me. To analyze that in a different way, and to look at what League membership means in a slightly different way, a little bit more organic version is what I really am after. It’s all part of the big experiment and all happens for a reason, and gives me the opportunity to do some really cool stories.

Hopefully people will dig it and give it a shot.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>With the Obsidian Age wrapped up and Aquaman back in the present safe and sound...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey, a little spoiler warning next time for those of us hopelessly behind in our reading! :)

- Elayne (as if one couldn't guess the outcome)

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>(as if one couldn't guess the outcome)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, they were really keeping you guessing with the subtitle, "The Hunt for Aquaman" as well as a new Aquaman series announced before the event even began, huh? :)

MattB

[Kevin T. Brown]

I'm definitely looking forward to the new direction for JLA, but there was one thing left unanswered in the interview:

What about Plastic Man????

[MattBrady]

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin T. Brown:
<strong>What about Plastic Man????</strong><hr></blockquote>

He does whatever plastic can.

MattB

[PopCultureKid]

[quote] Originally posted by Matt Brady:
JK: Well, he has been on the team before. When I was looking on the giant lists of who has ever been on the team, I saw that he had been on there, so there’s precedent for him being there<hr></blockquote>

I hope Joe realizes that Major Disaster was part of the League before.. Justice League ANTARCTICA. That was played, successfully, for laughs as part of the Giffen Justice League series.

[BarryWeen]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>

He does whatever plastic can.

MattB</strong><hr></blockquote>

Plastic Man, Plastic Man
He does whatever plastic can.
Makes a bottle, and other household items.
Decomposes for a long while.
Look out! Here comes the Plastic Man.
Look out! Here comes the Plastic Man!...

(sung to the tune of the old Spider-Man cartoon)

:)

[American Caesar]

The biggest reason this concept was so successful in the Morrison/Porter relaunch was the fact that the team was front-loaded with icons. "JLA" does'na work with third-tier capes on staff.

"Alak-chuk," anybody?

[MikeD]

I really liked Joe Kelly's take on Jason Blood and was hoping he'd stick around as a JLA member.
IMHO, he's got a long history in the DCU that that would justify his inclusion in DC's flagship team book, and would fill the roles of both the "mystic member" and the "dark past" member that Joe is using Manitou and Major Disaster for.

I hope Atom and Firestorm are the members not pictured on the cover who are "sticking around."

[Act of God]

:( Joe,why not add Hawkwoman(Shayera) in the mix too?

[Roast Beef]

[quote]Originally posted by American Caesar:
<strong>"Alak-chuk," anybody?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I remember it more as "enuk-chuk," but it's been a while.

<a href="http://www.seanbaby.com/superfriends/apache.htm" target="_blank">This helps. Although I'm sure everyone's already seen it.</a>

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>NRAMA: Is the new lineup going to be it for a while, or is it still flexible in regards to more members joining? Black Vulcan and El Dorado are probably free…along with the Wonder Twins.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Aren't El Dorado and Martian Manhunter the same guy? Their powers are identical.

And Black Vulcan is Black Lighting...

[Grendel Prime]

Opinion: The JLA as a concept has always been and should always be the DC universe's "best of the best".

Fact: Whenever it has strayed from the "big guns" (the original 7 plus some reserve members for variety), the fans lose interest and the series gets cancelled.

Question: When is DC going to learn?

Answer: That question is rhetorical. Unless you'd like to interpret it slightly as "How many issues from now until either the original line-up is restored or the title is canned?"

[Aaron]

[quote]Originally posted by American Caesar:
<strong>The biggest reason this concept was so successful in the Morrison/Porter relaunch was the fact that the team was front-loaded with icons. "JLA" does'na work with third-tier capes on staff.

"Alak-chuk," anybody?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, history tells us that JLA can be VERY successful WITHOUT the Big 7, as long as there's a good creative team behind it. After all, it wasn't the original JLA series that launched an entire franchise of titles... it was Giffen/Maguire's JLI.

It wasn't until the concept was traded off two or three times and was under the helm of Gerard Jones and Dan Vado (who?) that someone finally said "hey, wait..."

I find it very, very limiting when people claim that the JLA is, will be and should be the Big 7 when that totally discounts several great periods in JLA history.

Aaron

[drgoodhead]

from the way joe kelly is describing his plans for the jla, and serendipity being a major influence(major disaster as wolverine, the folks who gathered the elite??) seems like he's building the same sort of momentum that chris claremont did way back when with x-men.

could be the start of another historic 15 year run.

i for one am definitely excited.

go joe!!!!!

[Kevin T. Brown]

But what about Plastic Man?????

:confused: <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Robert Donovan]

[quote]Originally posted by BarryWeen:
<strong>

Plastic Man, Plastic Man
He does whatever plastic can.
Makes a bottle, and other household items.
Decomposes for a long while.
Look out! Here comes the Plastic Man.
Look out! Here comes the Plastic Man!...

(sung to the tune of the old Spider-Man cartoon)

:) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Also,
He's got plastic heart, plastic teeth and toes,
(Yeah, he's plastic man)
He's got plastic knees and a perfect plastic nose.
(Yeah, he's plastic man)
He's got plastic lips that hide his plastic teeth and gums,
And plastic legs that reach up to his plastic bum.
(Plastic bum)

Robert Donovan

[TemporalFlux]

Well, I'm dropping the book. I stuck with it through Obsidian Age, and quite frankly Kelly's run has been extremely amateurish.

For one thing, Kelly doesn't have a grasp of the characters he is working with. It's like watching a little kid write a fan fiction. Batman and Wonder Woman playing tongue hockey? Batman exclaiming how much he loves magic? Hell...even at the beginning of the Obsidian Age arc, I had become so densitized by Kelly's drunken characterization that I found nothing odd about Kyle's first dream. I thought Kelly just decided on whatever whim that it would be fun to have Superman with his feet propped up smoking a cigar while playing poker.

Then there are the characters he has shaped to his own. Major Disaster...completely destroyed Waid's superb revamp of Disaster's powers during Underworld Unleashed. Of that whole thing, Disaster's enhanced ability to "see" probability was by far the coolest and most full of potential. Then drunken Kelly mopes along..."Me like stupid Disaster who make volcano blow up." It's pathetic. And don't get me started on Cardboard Girl or whatever her name is - the heroine whose power is apparently to be as uninteresting as possible.

Even the story arcs themselves don't make sense (even on some "deeper" level). So Aquaman sinks Atlantis in the past after it has been transported there and raised. So if it was already sunk when it arrived and the Atlanteans were still slaves "unda da sea" anyway...how in the hell was it Aquaman's original sin as the blonde man who sunk Atlantis? Even witchie-poo is referring to how she had been cast out due to the old blonde hair bit...but that was *before* Aquaman sank Atlantis in this story. If he's the original sin, how could she be blamed *before*? I could rant for days about the idiotic crap in Obsidian Age...and don't even get me started on that "death of truth" fiasco. WTF?

Even without the double K.O. of Morrison and Waid to come in after, Kelly's run ranks down there with the Nuklon tenure in the League. I don't know what makes me sicker, though...the fact DC is allowing this creative destruction all over again or the fact there are actually people applauding this tripe. Well, this sheep is done. Bye bye JLA. Until Kelly deservingly gets kicked out on his ass, make mine JSA (written by people who give a damn).

[John Osen]

I agree with Temporal Flux. Speaking of JLA stories, see my sig to find out what one poser, er poster thinks of Crisis. :rolleyes: I won the office football pool and my Christmas present to myself is a copy of Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman: The Hiketia! :D

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by Aaron:
<strong>

Actually, history tells us that JLA can be VERY successful WITHOUT the Big 7, as long as there's a good creative team behind it. After all, it wasn't the original JLA series that launched an entire franchise of titles... it was Giffen/Maguire's JLI.

It wasn't until the concept was traded off two or three times and was under the helm of Gerard Jones and Dan Vado (who?) that someone finally said "hey, wait..."

I find it very, very limiting when people claim that the JLA is, will be and should be the Big 7 when that totally discounts several great periods in JLA history.

Aaron</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, everyone always (and quite justly) slams the Vibe/Gypsy/Steel/Vixen era--although I always liked Vixen--but the JLA can work without the so-called big seven.

(Why Martian Manhunter is considered part of the big seven has always eluded me. He should be dumped in favour of the Ray or Firestorm. To me, the big seven should be the characters who can support their own series, Martian Manhunter will NEVER support his own series.)

I don't like Kelly's choices so far, but at least he has a plan. And that story justifying Faith's membership had better be good!--Hehe heh heh.

[MikeD]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

(Why Martian Manhunter is considered part of the big seven has always eluded me. He should be dumped in favour of the Ray or Firestorm. To me, the big seven should be the characters who can support their own series, Martian Manhunter will NEVER support his own series.)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The "Big 7" are the the Original Seven Members of the Silver Age League, whether or not they have their own books is beside the point. Anyhow, if having a successful on-going title is part of your criteria for membership - how are Ray or Firestorm any more worthy than J'onn? All three have had their solo series cancelled.

[manosx]

[quote] <hr></blockquote>Grendel Prime Opinion: The JLA as a concept has always been and should always be the DC universe's "best of the best".

Actually in the Post Crisis DCU the idea of the "Big 7" is really very new. And the fanbase certainly doesn't drop as soon as you start adding new members, as Morrison did as early as ish#7 I believe. This cast may work, and Kelly states REPEATEDLY that the "Big 7" are still there, just not always visible.

[Starsky_Hutch76]

I agree with Temporal Flux, too. I also dropped JLA. I just couldn't take it any more. This is the third book Kelly's made me dropped. He helped get me to drop the Superman books. Then his indecipherable dialogue made me drop Superboy. And now JLA.

Hey, DC, since you're cancelling Young Justice because of the Teen Titans cartoon, why not put Peter David on JLA and make it readable again?

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
<strong>And Black Vulcan is Black Lighting...</strong><hr></blockquote>

...And here I've been calling him Tuvok for about 9 years now :-P

[woodstock]

[quote]I hope Atom and Firestorm are the members not pictured on the cover who are "sticking around."<hr></blockquote>

Well maybe Atom is, but Firestorm definately isn't. He just joined the Power Company.

[dollman]

[quote]Originally posted by Grendel Prime:
<strong>Opinion: The JLA as a concept has always been and should always be the DC universe's "best of the best".

Fact: Whenever it has strayed from the "big guns" (the original 7 plus some reserve members for variety), the fans lose interest and the series gets cancelled.

Question: When is DC going to learn?

Answer: That question is rhetorical. Unless you'd like to interpret it slightly as "How many issues from now until either the original line-up is restored or the title is canned?"</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fact: Giffen/Demattis/Maguire's JUSTICE LEAGUE/INTL/EUROPE were quite successful in the late '80s and early '90s.

That said, I'm dropping the title because I REALLY don't like Kelley's writing. His dialogue is confusing as are his story arcs. Even with Obsidian Age coming out on a bi-weekly basis, I had to keep digging up the previous issue to understand what was happening. Kelley's style could really have benefitted from the 1st recap used by Marvel these days.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>

The "Big 7" are the the Original Seven Members of the Silver Age League, whether or not they have their own books is beside the point. Anyhow, if having a successful on-going title is part of your criteria for membership - how are Ray or Firestorm any more worthy than J'onn? All three have had their solo series cancelled.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Martain Manhunter was quickly ushered out of the silver age team since everyone finally realised what a loser character he was.

Firestorm will be getting another series soon.

I suggested Ray since the JLA has no energy manipulator.

[John Osen]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>

The "Big 7" are the the Original Seven Members of the Silver Age League, whether or not they have their own books is beside the point. Anyhow, if having a successful on-going title is part of your criteria for membership - how are Ray or Firestorm any more worthy than J'onn? All three have had their solo series cancelled.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed. Also J'onn J'onzz' many unduplicated powers like shape changing (without Plastic Man), invisibility, de-solidification, and psychic powers make him possibly the most powerful and definitely the most useful member. :)

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>

...And here I've been calling him Tuvok for about 9 years now :-P</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lmao...

[Simon DelMonte]

I'm a fan of Joe Kelly's work, but his JLA stuff has come up short. Adding two of his own characters just makes me even less interested.

I'm fine with the JLA not being the Big Guns. I like it better when the writer has a mix to play with, since there's only so much he could do with any character with his/her own series. (Which means that Kelly has an advantage as regards Supes.) But I have never liked it when writers get to create and then add their own characters ot the JLA, with the exception of when Gerry Conway did it waaaay back when with Firestorm.

It didn't work with the Detroit JLA. It didn't work too well with Bloodwynd, or Aztek. And I doubt it will work with Faith or Apache Chief. Why should these characters get in when so many more established ones are sitting unused?

sigh

[Alex Segura Jr.]

[quote]Originally posted by Aaron:
<strong>

Actually, history tells us that JLA can be VERY successful WITHOUT the Big 7, as long as there's a good creative team behind it. After all, it wasn't the original JLA series that launched an entire franchise of titles... it was Giffen/Maguire's JLI.

It wasn't until the concept was traded off two or three times and was under the helm of Gerard Jones and Dan Vado (who?) that someone finally said "hey, wait..."

I find it very, very limiting when people claim that the JLA is, will be and should be the Big 7 when that totally discounts several great periods in JLA history.

Aaron</strong><hr></blockquote>


Let's not forget J.M. DeMatteis, who scripted most of the JLA issues over Giffen's plots, and Adam Hughes, among other artists...

[Boink182]

The comparison to JLA Detroit is a bit unfair. We're still getting Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, a Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. After Aquaman is further established in his own book, we may see him as well. Apparently Zatanna might not have been an option with other plans for her in the works. Firestorm might end up being a member of another DC super team. Atom is most likely going to be on the team as well. So, we have 6 of the Big 7 (which was the case before Kelly took over), the Atom (may, and that's what some fans have been asking for), several new members to make things more interesting (because before Kelly things were getting a bit stale), and maybe Plasticman (who has be great under the current creative team).

I also don't see why there should be objection of Major Diaster joining the Laegue, and then saying JSA, which includes Black Adam, as doing it right.

The plot being complext and asking for readers to reread old issues isn't such a bad thing. That just means the book is a bit deeper than most other comics. Part of the fun is going back, because things that might have been confusing makes a lot more sense with the later issues.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by John:
<strong>

Agreed. Also J'onn J'onzz' many unduplicated powers like shape changing (without Plastic Man), invisibility, de-solidification, and psychic powers make him possibly the most powerful and definitely the most useful member. :) </strong><hr></blockquote>

See, its stuff like this that I hate. Martian Manhunter didn't originally have ALL these powers. Over the years he has been given different arrays of powers by writers as a way of making a bland character more interesting. Guess what? It didn't work. The character is still boring and now has a huge array of powers.

I think he should get the boot so that the JLA can make room for a more interesting character.

[dollman]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

See, its stuff like this that I hate. Martian Manhunter didn't originally have ALL these powers. Over the years he has been given different arrays of powers by writers as a way of making a bland character more interesting. Guess what? It didn't work. The character is still boring and now has a huge array of powers.

I think he should get the boot so that the JLA can make room for a more interesting character.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Boring??? Did you ever read Ostrander's recent series? I thought it was great, and demonstrated again that any character can work if you have a good writer.

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by BLACKBRIAR:
<strong>

See, its stuff like this that I hate. Martian Manhunter didn't originally have ALL these powers. Over the years he has been given different arrays of powers by writers as a way of making a bland character more interesting. Guess what? It didn't work. The character is still boring and now has a huge array of powers.

I think he should get the boot so that the JLA can make room for a more interesting character.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>In his first appearance J'onn J'onz possessed telepathy, invisibility, shape-changing, intangibility, and a vulnerability to fire. I own his first appearance.

Later I know he had flight, Martian Breath, Martian Vision, super-strength, and invulnerability. In addition he also knew the Martian transmutation technique which he demonstrated during Kanjar Ro's first appearance which was written by Gardner Fox. And Gardner Fox omitted most of his powers. So what are you writing about?

And J'onn was absent for over ten years worth of Justice League comics so he is not part of my Justice League.</font>

[tralfaz]

It's been said once, and must be said again...

MArtian Manhunter is the heart and soul of the JLA.
He reminds Superman that he too is an alien on earth and they bith protect thier adopted home till theyre dead.
He reminds Batman that being sneaky and devious is sometimes needed to get things done. And he's also a detective in his own right.
He reminds Wonder Woman that it's not all strength and power that gets the job done.
He reminds Green Lantern that just because he's young, doesn't mean he doesn't have what it takes to be a hero. It's all in his head.
He reminds Flash that he's a hero and he doesn't need to prove it to anyone anymore, he has lived up to his potential.

and Plastic Man is there to dangle oreos in front of him.

I'll keep reading JLA because it's fun to read. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it doesn't. I dont know who Faith is, and I want to know what her deal is. And Major Disaster is cool... what's with that oufit, is it an oversized straightjacket?

[ojcart]

Kelly's JLA has been very poor and his bad stories have ruined the book for me. I have stuck around through this Obsidian age crap, and i will definately flip through the new line-up issue to try and hang on...but I dont see it happening.

[GMSLegion]

I've been very unhappy with Kelly's scripting and the long-winded plotting (Obsidian Age was, what, 7 issues, plus a prologue, plus at least two issues of the team fighting the raven guy?) and the brutality of this storyline and I really don't like lineup changes. I never did, unless they were done gradually (as Gerry Conway did, phasing Green Arrow out after adding Firestorm).

But what has annoyed me about JLA since Morrison took over is that the writer is forced to adhere to whatever fool continuity goes on in the characters' solo books, despite JLA consistently outselling all of them except, lately, Batman. I'd say JLA should be DC's flagship book and the other titles should react to it.

JLA trade paperbacks are on the market now featuring such elements as Wonder Woman being dead (in Rock of Ages) and someone else posing as Flash (in a White Martian one-shot) without any explanation of what the devil they mean "Wonder Woman's dead" and not addressing who that other Flash was (I have no idea).

That and I'm going to be even more annoyed if Kelly's dropped Plastic Man. I have 70 year-old uncles who like Plastic Man. He occasionally shows up in cartoons in the New Yorker or Playboy. This will never be the case with the Martian Manhunter.

--Grant

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by dollman:
<strong>

Boring??? Did you ever read Ostrander's recent series? I thought it was great, and demonstrated again that any character can work if you have a good writer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I read the zero issue and dropped it right after Ostrander had to go and make another surviving Martian to fight the Martian Manhunter. Talk about LAME.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by Simon DelMonte:
<strong>I'm a fan of Joe Kelly's work, but his JLA stuff has come up short. Adding two of his own characters just makes me even less interested.

I'm fine with the JLA not being the Big Guns. I like it better when the writer has a mix to play with, since there's only so much he could do with any character with his/her own series. (Which means that Kelly has an advantage as regards Supes.) But I have never liked it when writers get to create and then add their own characters ot the JLA, with the exception of when Gerry Conway did it waaaay back when with Firestorm.

It didn't work with the Detroit JLA. It didn't work too well with Bloodwynd, or Aztek. And I doubt it will work with Faith or Apache Chief. Why should these characters get in when so many more established ones are sitting unused?

sigh</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. When I want NEW characters, I buy independent or Wildstorm titles. In the JLA I want Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman (maybe GL and/or the FLash) and a combination of other DC heroes. And in DC's case, the list is long and has some possibility Metamorpho, Firestorm, Captain Atom, Firehawk, etc.

It is always a stupid move to create a brand new character who is suddenly good enough to stand alongsde DC's pantheon. It always seems contrived.

[BLACKBRIAR]

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
<strong>

<font color=blue>
Later I know he had flight, Martian Breath, Martian Vision, super-strength, and invulnerability. In addition he also knew the Martian transmutation technique which he demonstrated during Kanjar Ro's first appearance which was written by Gardner Fox. And Gardner Fox omitted most of his powers. So what are you writing about?
</font></strong><hr></blockquote>

The Martian Manhunter's powers have never been used consistently. Sometimes he has the powers you list, at other times he is a green Superman. In the JLI he never used his powers at all! The character has always been there to do whatever was left over after everyone else had played their part. I would rather let the writer's take another DC character and flesh them out instead of wasting screen time on such an ill defined character.

Other than dubious powers, the Martian Manhunter has one other attribute: every five or ten years he always pretends to betray the JLA to invading Martians and then plays doubleagent to help the JLA save the day. Seriously, that is all he ever does.

[fournwah]

Here's another voice to go along with those dissatisfied with Kelly's run on the book. The only thing I've ever really enjoyed of his is Deadpool. Maybe some writers are just not cut out to handle the big guns.

And am I the only one who enjoyed the Vibe, Steel, Vixen version of the JLA? I always thought there was potential with a couple of those characters. Particularly Vibe and Steel. I liked Steel's storyline of being pissed off at his dad for the torture he was put through in order to become Steel. I think Vibe had a lot untapped possibilities, too. Too bad they were killed off just to clean up the book before restarting it after Legends.

[GreenLanternRing]

<
The "Big 7" are the the Original Seven Members of the Silver Age League, whether or not they have their own books is beside the point.


Actually, Black Canary, Aquaman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern are the 5 original members. Any one seen BC around? By Big 7, they mean 4 originals + 3 biggest cash cows they could squeeze in. The JLA COULD HAVE worked with third tier players, but not as well as GM's JLA did. I mean, this is supposed to be the cream of the crop, the best warriors the world has to offer. The JLA has now been set up as the elite defenders of the Earth. People with such power and experience that they are the authority on how to save the world. The best of the best, only without Eric Roberts and James Earl Jones.
Major Disaster is not one of them. Blood is a great addition, if he sticks around, but I get the feeling he was just brought in because Etrigan was a great way to bust up Gamemnae. Hawkgirl is fine over in JSA, leave her there. Firestorm would be great, seeing as how he's immensely powerful, but if he's committed elsewhere, oh well. GA has the experience, but Ollie'd never stick around. He's too much of a rebel for the rules of the JLA. Apache Chief? C'mon, a joke's a joke, but enough. Who's next, the Samurai who turns invisible? "Koziono Ni Hiyaku!" Atom has been there for a good long time, so let him stick around. He is a hero and a Scientist, the type of specialist that Steel should be being used as (hint hint) so he fits the bill in my book. Nightwing will just be redundant, so I'm sure he's already back in Bludhaven.
The biggest problem I have is this Faith. I dislike BRAND NEW CHARACTERS who are known and trusted without reason. I feel cheated, that there is this secret history that exists that was made up retroactively. Even Etrigan knows and fears her! Makes me feel like I am some sort of dummy. Bah!


And I have no problem with Jon Stewart, so long as he can still host the Daily Show... what? JOHN Stewart? Oh.... well, just the same, I love the idea of multiple GL's, and John deserves some ring time. He's always been a great man.

What I'd like to see, is Wally, J'onn, Diana and Eel stick around. Throw in Firestorm for the raw power, Apache Chief ::shudder:: because he can be the magic that the JLA has been lacking, and this Faith so we can finally learn why she is so well known, and then wax her!
Plus, John Stewart because the JLA needs a GL, and Steel for the science. Or better yet, from the events of Foreign Bodies *anyone? anyone?* give John Henry Irons the ring! He'd be an incredible GL! Oh, well. A guy can dream, can't he?

Anyhow, if having a successful on-going title is part of your criteria for membership - how are Ray or Firestorm any more worthy than J'onn? All three have had their solo series cancelled.

Excellent point. J'onn is the heart of the league because he's the only one who has been a member of every incarnation. Not having a successful series doesn't mean he shouldn't be on the team. In fact, if anything, it means he SHOULD be on the team, because how else would we see him?

The JLA is about power and experience, not who rakes in the most money. Well, it SHOULD be.

my 22¢

[The Blue Spider]

<font color=blue>The founding members of the JLA are Superman, Batman, the Flash, Green Lantern, the Manhunter From Mars, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman.

The Big Characters are roughly those who made it to the Super Friends cartoons, Green Arrow, Atom, and the Elongated Man.

The JLA is a wierd combination. It is a superhero team that is the forefront team, it has the biggest characters commerically, it actually sells big.

Marvel's X-Men sell best but in the canon they're misfits. Their forefront team has some pretty weak heroes and their most powerful super team, the Defenders, is filled with people who only do team stuff with a short list of superpowered pals.

The JLA's biggest characters are Superman (the godpowered icon and the heart of the team), Batman (human man), Wonder Woman (super woman), the Flash (speedster), Elongated Man (stretchy dude), Hawkman (big guy with wings), Green Arrow (the archer), the Atom (shrinks), Zatanna (easy to look at, does magic), Red Tornado (writer's choice character, android hero who wants to be a man), Aquaman (swimming guy who breathes water), Green Lantern (tosses energy, makes wishes come true, long-standing icon for the company and the universe) and the Black Canary (human woman, Green Arrow's love interest). For the most part every hero there at the time filled an archetypal role of some sort.

J'onn J'onnz was not there at the time. He was the time's exile. He was the historical character that heroes missed and wondered wistfully about. The Avengers had the Swordsman and Mantis for that.

As a founding member J'onn is a member of the founding 7 members. That's good. He's been a member of every incarnation of the Justice League, along with Batman.

And what does all this mean?

It means that Black Canary did not found the Justice League.

And J'onn has his uses if the right writer uses him.

Oh, and Blackbriar, Grant Morrison did not invent any powers that weren't there before.</font>

[beta-ray]

*shrug* Well I guess I am in the total minority. I like Kelley's run so far much better than the later issues of Morrison. I find them quite refreshing, even though sometimes the interest only starts in the middle of the stories.

I am also of the opinion that they don't have to be the best to be in the JLA, but if they aren't good, they should be weeded out. I was getting sick of the "big 7" towards the end of morrison's run and how batman ALWAYS saved the day or knew such critical pieces of info (yeah I know he is the world's greatest detective).

I also really like Martian Manhunter. I didn't buy his solo series, but I really like how he functions in the JLA.

Guess I'm one of the few who is not dropping the title just yet.

[RDFozz]

[quote]Originally posted by GreenLanternRing:
<strong>Actually, Black Canary, Aquaman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern are the 5 original members. Any one seen BC around? By Big 7, they mean 4 originals + 3 biggest cash cows they could squeeze in.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not exactly.

The true original members of the Justice League of America were indeed the Big 7.

However, in current DC history (post-Crisis, post-Zero Hour, post-anything-else?) Wonder Woman did not exist when the League was founded. When the time came to decide who founded the League post-Crisis, Superman and Batman's histories were a little sketchy yet. So, the powers that be wrote Superman and Batman out, and wrote Black Canary in instead of Wonder Woman (as the only other major female character that wasn't a spin-off of a male character).

Side note: For the first year or two, Superman and Batman weren't active in the League, so their exclusion as founders almost makes sense.

Oh, and as long as I'm posting, I agree with those that say Ostrander's MARTIAN MANHUNTER series was superb. However, the market doesn't seem to have agreed with us, does it?

[Skyman]

Hey, Matt: How is it that you didn't ask Joe Kelly about Batman and Wonder Woman's relationship? It's the plot that shocked me the most, and I mean that in a very good way...

[Taylor Porter]

I agree with those that are disappointed with Kelly's run. I find his scripts to be muddled and confusing. A lot of the times I have no idea what the hell is going on in his stories. The dialogue is off, too. He seems to be focusing so much on having his characters say clever things that the dialogue no longer serves to advance the story. I'm often left wondering things like: "Why would Kyle say something like that" and "So what does that mean?". Also, the art is not bad, but less than what I would expect from Mahnke, who's done great stuff in the past.

It's a shame, too, because I REALLY like the JLA. It's one of my all-time favourite super-hero books. I loved the Giffer-era, was quite entertained by the Morrison stuff, and was thrilled with what Waid did in his all-too brief run. I thought Kelly and Mahnke could really do great stuff, but neither of them seem to be doing their best work here.

[tralfaz]

[quote]Originally posted by RDFozz:
<strong>

Not exactly.

The true original members of the Justice League of America were indeed the Big 7.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Then what the hell was JLA year 1 all about?

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by tralfaz:
<strong>

Then what the hell was JLA year 1 all about?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>I am not going to define retroactive continuity for you.

So the answer is "It's a 12-part story that if taken as canon contradicts issues of the original series."

[tralfaz]

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
<strong>

<font color=blue>I am not going to define retroactive continuity for you.

So the answer is "It's a 12-part story that if taken as canon contradicts issues of the original series."</strong><hr></blockquote>


how so, cuz im confused as hell now.

[Rubber Sled]

[quote]Originally posted by Roast Beef:
<strong>

I remember it more as "enuk-chuk," but it's been a while.

<a href="http://www.seanbaby.com/superfriends/apache.htm" target="_blank">This helps. Although I'm sure everyone's already seen it.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

"You got 425 horsepower under that foot of yours! SO STAND ON IT, AGNES!"

[wraith]

Here are my thoughts on the new JLA.

1. I agree with every single thing that kelly said in this interview, about why he's changing/adding to the JLA line up.

2. I have alwys hated the idea of the "big 7" ,having to be the ONLY characters worthy to be featured in the JLA. In my opinion, I find nothing more boring and stale, then having a team comic comprised of the same 6 or 7 characters (all or most of whom, have their own titles) in every issue for most or all of the entire series.

3. My favorite JLA line ups were the detroit team,the giffen and demateus team,and the extreme justice team.

4. The changes that kelly is making, has caused me to start picking up this book again.

[Taylor Porter]

In the original comics pusblished in the 60s, the team was Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman, plus Batman and Superman, who weren't really around much. After the Crisis in the 80s, the continuity was retro-actively established as being Flash, Aquaman, GL, MM and Black Canary. These five members were the ones shown as the founding members in the post-Crisis JLA: Year One story in 1998. All clear?

[brand]

i miss booster gold and blue beetle

[COREMARK]

I loved the Obsidian Age and I'm also looking forward to the new lineup changes. I've always thought the League should be much more than the big 7, to be honest I think if a book doesn't change somewhat over time it gets incredibly stale. However I would like to see a few more established heroes join the team like, Black Lightning, Metamorpho, or Blue Beetle.

[paulski]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>I really liked Joe Kelly's take on Jason Blood and was hoping he'd stick around as a JLA member. IMHO, he's got a long history in the DCU that that would justify his inclusion in DC's flagship team book, and would fill the roles of both the "mystic member" and the "dark past" member that Joe is using Manitou and Major Disaster for.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You read my mind. And he shits all over Major Disaster (rather apt name considering the circumstances) in the interest stakes. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen. :(

[quote]<strong>I hope Atom and Firestorm are the members not pictured on the cover who are "sticking around."</strong><hr></blockquote>

As someone else has said, Firestorm won't be on the team for certain reasons. Atom would be nice, though. He really hasn't had much of a run during this series and could do with the exposure.

And just to quickly summarise what I posted on another thread about the team:

Major Disaster - Ugh. Lose him (or the 'costume').

Faith - .... Words fail me. But as I'll be sticking with the series - only because it is the JLA we're talking about - Kelly's got a chance to turn her into a remotely interesting character. But again, new costume, please.

Raven Manitou - Cool choice. I like the guy so far. BUT WHY IN THE BLUE HELL CHANGE HIS NAME??!! How goddamn stupid is that? Apache Chief?!!? You cannot be serious?! Hell, it's not as though he has to hide his identity to protect his loved ones (who have been dead for about 2000 years...).

John Stewart - I like it. Change is good when warranted and this gives Kyle a chance to take a bit of a break before he gets stale. And familiarise those DC readers who have only been around for the last 10 years with one of the previous GL's.

I suppose I should be grateful there's still so many of the big guns on the damn team. It could have been Detroit all over again.

[Michael Heide]

1.: I quit JLA when Mark Waid left, even though I liked Kelly's work in the past. At that time, I stopped reading DC books at all. Green Lantern written totally out of character in his own book, the lame resurrection of the supposed-to-be-dead Kents, money problems and other reasons were responsible for that. But now it's starting to get interesting again. The new Titans and Outsiders books, the end of Bruce Wayne: Murder/Fugitive and the new JLA lineup are making me come back. And Green Lantern gets a new writer, which can't be bad. I already bought all of the JLA back issues since Kelly took over, with the exception of Obsidian Age (because my comic store didn't have the complete story).

2.: The post-crisis "founding members" of the JLA are a lame joke. The only good story with that team was JLA: Year One, ten years after the continuity was changed. And Mark Waid showed that he can write even better stories if he can play with the big guns (Kingdom Come, Terror Inkognita...). Imagine Millar used different characters for his Ultimate X-Men: Angel, Thunderbird, Gambit, Marrow (or rather the lame Alan Davis revamp of her), Maggot and Jubilee. Those would be the new founding members, the rest won't appear for a few years. If Marvel now introduced Wolverine, Cyclops, Phoenix, Nightcrawler, Storm and Xavier to that team, would you really complain?

3.: The Martian Manhunter is one of my favourite characters. He has a lot of potential very few writers realize. Ostrander wasn't one of them.

[Fazhoul]

Can someone please frickin' tell me when Major Disaster became a good guy? I read somewhere that Superman inspired him to change his ways. When exactly did that happen?

Fazhoul

[TemporalFlux]

[quote]Originally posted by Fazhoul:
<strong>Can someone please frickin' tell me when Major Disaster became a good guy? I read somewhere that Superman inspired him to change his ways. When exactly did that happen?

Fazhoul</strong><hr></blockquote>

Action Comics #783 - "The Choice". Another muddled Kelly story split between 4 villian battles Superman had taken on - Ocean Master, Major Disaster, Blaze (another refugee from Emperor Joker) and Stone Emperor (as far as I know some Japanese fantasy Kelly had in dream after watching old Godzilla movies).

Basically it culminates as Superman has all four beat, but instead of just carting them off to jail...Supes harkens back to his father's advice of giving people second chances. Supes offers each a second chance...to right then and there take up Superman's hand and help instead make the world a better place. They all reject except for Major Disaster. The issue ends with Disaster crumpled in Superman's arms like a child (probably more depressed over his missing probability powers than anything else).

[MikeD]

[quote]Originally posted by tralfaz:
<strong>


how so, cuz im confused as hell now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

JLA Year One is a great mini-series, well-written with terrific art. However, it changed the history of the team to fit in with the Post-Crisis DCU. (No one ever said DC's continuity was easy to keep straight!)

During the actual Silver Age, when the JLA debuted in the Brave & the Bold and later got their own title, the original members were the Big 7: Supes, Bats, WW, Flash, GL, J'onn and Aquaman. And the 1st new members to join were Green Arrow, Atom and Hawkman.

These 10 are what I always considered to be the "classic" JLA line-up, because they were the team members during Gardner Fox's initial 65-issue run.

[RWNeal]

[quote]Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>Hey, DC, since you're cancelling Young Justice because of the Teen Titans cartoon, why not put Peter David on JLA and make it readable again?</strong><hr></blockquote>

God in Heaven, no! Don't let that hack anywhere near a book I buy! Joe is injecting some life into JLA that has been missing since Morrison lost interest in creating exciting stories (about a year before he left). I think he's still finding his voice, but he's most definitely on the right track. I hadn't read much of Kelly's work before JLA, but I like what I've seen.

And on Major D's costume, you'd rather he went back to this? http://ksacomics.com/greenl/43.gif

That's the worst Gil Kane costume design ever!* I'll take the Fonzie look any day.

*All apologies to the memory of the much-missed master if he didn't design that turkey.

[JimHughs4]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>

During the actual Silver Age, when the JLA debuted in the Brave & the Bold and later got their own title, the original members were the Big 7: Supes, Bats, WW, Flash, GL, J'onn and Aquaman. And the 1st new members to join were Green Arrow, Atom and Hawkman.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Absolutely true. However, the role of Batman and Superman in the League was to show up at the end of the adventure and make sure everyone was okay. The other members were the stars, keeping the two big guns out of the spotlight. This is why the post-Crisis League started with the five members.

[Starsky_Hutch76]

[quote]Originally posted by RWNeal:
<strong>

God in Heaven, no! Don't let that hack anywhere near a book I buy! Joe is injecting some life into JLA that has been missing since Morrison lost interest in creating exciting stories (about a year before he left). I think he's still finding his voice, but he's most definitely on the right track. I hadn't read much of Kelly's work before JLA, but I like what I've seen.

And on Major D's costume, you'd rather he went back to this? http://ksacomics.com/greenl/43.gif

That's the worst Gil Kane costume design ever!* I'll take the Fonzie look any day.

*All apologies to the memory of the much-missed master if he didn't design that turkey.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Looks like the vote is in from the Bizarro world.

Joe Kelly isn't fit to share the same air as Peter David. PAD saved the Hulk, straightened out the mess post-crisis revamping had made of Supergirl, and made lame characters like Impulse and SUperboy interesting in Young Justice. He is one hundred times the writer Kelly is. Kelly's muddled style continues to drive me away from titles. (But hey, he's saving me money so he's not all bad.)

As for Major Disaster, I don't care what costume he wears, as long as he wears it somewhere other than in JLA

[MikeD]

[quote]Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>As for Major Disaster, I don't care what costume he wears, as long as he wears it somewhere other than in JLA</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here, here!

[MikeD]

[quote]Originally posted by JimHughs4:
<strong>

Absolutely true. However, the role of Batman and Superman in the League was to show up at the end of the adventure and make sure everyone was okay. The other members were the stars, keeping the two big guns out of the spotlight. This is why the post-Crisis League started with the five members.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's true in the first dozen or so issues, but the Big 2's presence increased to full participation by the mid-60s (esp. during the Batman tv craze). That seems to be the progression when you flip through the JLA's DC Archives volumes. (I'm not quite old enough to have been around when the actual issues were printed.)

[Jeremy Williams]

I actualy like this line-up of JLA. It`s pretty much how i would do it, you have the essentials Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman, Flash, a genuine Green Lantern(lol), and from there, you fill the rest of the line-up with anybody from new members, new characters, reformed villains, whatever you like. It makes sens, and i like the fact that it`s a small line-up; the perfect super-hero team line-up example for me will always be the New X-Men in the Byrne/Claremont days consisting of six members(Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm, Collosus, Nightcrawler, and a rotating chair). As a team dynamic it`s much better since you get to know them and it`s easier to do in action(team-work etc...). And for JLA it makes Superman, Batman looks and the rest of these guys more incredible by defeating a threat: they win because of their ablities not by number(although Grant Morrison made them look great even with a big line-up).

[Fazhoul]

[quote]Originally posted by TemporalFlux:
<strong>


The issue ends with Disaster crumpled in Superman's arms like a child (probably more depressed over his missing probability powers than anything else).</strong><hr></blockquote>

So MD doesn't have the powers that Neron gave him back in the Underworld crossover? Was it ever explained how he lost those? Or, did the writers just choose to ignore them?

Fazhoul

[RWNeal]

[quote]Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>

Looks like the vote is in from the Bizarro world.

Joe Kelly isn't fit to share the same air as Peter David. PAD saved the Hulk, straightened out the mess post-crisis revamping had made of Supergirl, and made lame characters like Impulse and SUperboy interesting in Young Justice. He is one hundred times the writer Kelly is. Kelly's muddled style continues to drive me away from titles. (But hey, he's saving me money so he's not all bad.)

As for Major Disaster, I don't care what costume he wears, as long as he wears it somewhere other than in JLA</strong><hr></blockquote>

Me am so sad you figured out my home!

I started to write a long explaination of my dislike of PAD's work of the past few years, but it got too nasty-sounding for someone I don't actually know. I'm sure PAD is a fine, upstanding fellow and I don't mean to insult him on a personal level. Let's just say that I think he did a good job on the Hulk and Spider-Man but I don't like anything he's written in the past decade or so and I can't for the life of me figure out why people still love his work. Especially Young Justice - the most annoying collection of characters I've ever seen. I'd much rather have someone like Joe Kelly, who hasn't fallen into what I see as a creative rut on my JLA. Sorry if we disagree.

So let's get back to the JLA. As long as the storyline doesn't end up being a mirror of Hawkeye's early Avenging days, I don't have much of a problem with MD in the League as long as they do something interesting with him.

The only problem I have with Kelly's writing is the occasional muddle-i-ness you referred to. A good editor should be able to pick up on that and polish things, though. I could live without the Apache Chief homage, but hey- Super Friends are about to come out on DVD. Ya gotta have some sort of tie-in. ;)

[TemporalFlux]

[quote]Originally posted by Fazhoul:
<strong>So MD doesn't have the powers that Neron gave him back in the Underworld crossover? Was it ever explained how he lost those? Or, did the writers just choose to ignore them?

Fazhoul</strong><hr></blockquote>

Kelly has so far just ignored it, but the Major Disaster problem didn't start with Kelly (though if he were half awake he could fix it). DC screwed things up before that by letting Giffen run rampant on the recent Suicide Squad. In that short lived resurrection, Giffen decided to just act like nothing happened from the time he last used the characters. As a result, DC and he started this Major Disaster de-evolution notion. However, even there nothing was explained.

The root of the whole problem here is DC. I don't know what happened, but they just quit giving a damn by and large. Our Worlds at War was a mess...the subsequent Joker crap crossover was worse in a continuity sense. Their offices seem to have largely stopped talking to each other thus creating a Marvel situation. The only things working right now at DC are the small pockets where the writers care without being told to care (such as Geoff Johns on JSA and Phil Jimenez on Wonder Woman to note two).

It's a damn shame too...for that last half of the 90's, DC ran the tightest ship in the business. Now it's degraded into largely a group of drunken slobs like Kelly.

[Fin Fang Foom]

[quote]Originally posted by woodstock:
<strong>

Well maybe Atom is, but Firestorm definately isn't. He just joined the Power Company.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Geez, that's got to be the next worst thing to having your own book cancelled...

[Dave Phelps]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>

That's true in the first dozen or so issues, but the Big 2's presence increased to full participation by the mid-60s (esp. during the Batman tv craze). That seems to be the progression when you flip through the JLA's DC Archives volumes. (I'm not quite old enough to have been around when the actual issues were printed.)</strong><hr></blockquote>

You can tell which issues were published during the Batman TV show just because Batman started appearing rather prominantly on the covers, not always in ways that made sense. If he wasn't then the Golden Age Robin (dressed in one of the most hideous costumes ever created) and Batgirl were there in his place!

Here's an attempt to link to the covers I'm referring to:

JLA cover gallery (http://www.comics.org/covers.lasso?-database=covers&-layout=GCDGallery&-response=%2fcovers.lasso&-op=bw&hasimage=yes&-op=bw&SeriesID=1449&-skipRecords=42&-maxRecords=24&-sortF ield=covercode&-sortOrder=ascend&-token.Line=Y&-search)

[Starsky_Hutch76]

[quote]Originally posted by RWNeal:
<strong>

I'm sure PAD is a fine, upstanding fellow and I don't mean to insult him on a personal level. Let's just say that I think he did a good job on the Hulk and Spider-Man but I don't like anything he's written in the past decade or so and I can't for the life of me figure out why people still love his work. Especially Young Justice - the most annoying collection of characters I've ever seen. I'd much rather have someone like Joe Kelly, who hasn't fallen into what I see as a creative rut on my JLA. Sorry if we disagree.

So let's get back to the JLA. As long as the storyline doesn't end up being a mirror of Hawkeye's early Avenging days, I don't have much of a problem with MD in the League as long as they do something interesting with him.

The only problem I have with Kelly's writing is the occasional muddle-i-ness you referred to. A good editor should be able to pick up on that and polish things, though. I could live without the Apache Chief homage, but hey- Super Friends are about to come out on DVD. Ya gotta have some sort of tie-in. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

To me, this is actually a good argument for putting PAD on JLA. His best has been when he's worked on characters people really care about, like Hulk, Aquaman, or Spiderman. THe knocks he seems to be getting are from working on characters who barely qualify as second stringers for the sake of the artistic freedom derived from their not being used in other books.

THe best thing, IMHO, would be for PAD to work on a JLA with both the big guns and some fan-fave second stringers with big gun potential.
I know, Joe Kelly is supposedly doing this, but the man can't write worth a damn. No editor can make up for a writer's lack of talent. He managed to land this gig because Superman somehow made him a "name" writer, but hasn't Superman always been a haven for hacks?

[MikeD]

[quote]Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>...but hasn't Superman always been a haven for hacks?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Err, I guess if you consider Siegel & Shuster, Curt Swan, John Byrne and Jerry Ordway (off the top of my head) to be hacks.

[Boink182]

Some of Kelly's stories do seem to be muddled (or a confusing mess :D ), but I don't see how his JLA has become that. The Obsidian Age seemed very well plan with all the plot elements clicking together near the end of the story. I was worried that the style we would receive would resemble some of his more confusing Action Comics work, but that hasn't been the case.

As for PAD, I don't see why he should be considered any better or worse than Kelly. With YJ, PAD looked as if he tried to use new-obscure (WG, Secret, & Arrowette) or totally-new (Empress) or reimagined (Slobo) characters so that he could make YJ more interesting (which may not have happened if it remaind a book about DC's three most established teens). PAD also made his characters say and do funny things, which they may not exactly say and do in their own books.

[Combat Chuck]

Ack...I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think that Kelly's stint on JLA has taken Morrison's and Waid's runs and kicked them to the wayside.

Kelly had been a hit-and-miss writer for me before JLA. Some of his Action Comics work was brilliant, then some of it would be sub-par. None of it ever stunk to me.

I think that maybe I enjoy his writing because it makes the reader think about things alot more than usual comic books do. I usually have to read JLA and Action Comics issues two or three times to catch every little thing that he places into the stories. And I love it.

His JLA stories have been really hitting their strides with me. Golden Perfect was a mess....until the last part. Then I sat down, and re-read all three issues, back to back, and the puzzle fit together....and boy what a payoff. These are the comic stories that I crave.

I have no qualms with the current line-up, except maybe the addition of MD, just because he has never interested me. However, some of the parts of the Obsidian Age featuring him (which were few and far between) displayed that Kelly may have some cards up his sleeve. I also don't think that MD is the only one that Kelly really has some devious little plans for.

I haven't been this excited about JLA since ever. The Obsidian Age knocked my socks off, and I simply cannot wait for the next big event this summer, and all the issues between now and then.

I think all of you who think that Kelly's stories are too muddled, and that he's just a worthless drunk need to rethink your comments. This man has injected at least something into this team that has everyone talking, and while he has his haters, he's got his supporters. I know that you have your selective opinions, but also realize that it could be sooooo much worse.

[dollman]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>

Err, I guess if you consider Siegel & Shuster, Curt Swan, John Byrne and Jerry Ordway (off the top of my head) to be hacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know this will sound blasphemous, but yes, Curt Swan was a hack! The problem was, as Swan got older, so did the characters he drew. During his last couple of years before Byrne took over, Superman kept looking like Super-Grand Dad!

His attempts at young people were even worse. Basically he kept drawing kids and young adults with mop top beatle hair styles well into the mid 1980s. Remember He-Man?

[Zach Adams]

[quote]Originally posted by TemporalFlux:
<strong>Well, I'm dropping the book. I stuck with it through Obsidian Age, and quite frankly Kelly's run has been extremely amateurish.
(snip)

Then there are the characters he has shaped to his own. Major Disaster...completely destroyed Waid's superb revamp of Disaster's powers during Underworld Unleashed. Of that whole thing, Disaster's enhanced ability to "see" probability was by far the coolest and most full of potential. Then drunken Kelly mopes along..."Me like stupid Disaster who make volcano blow up." It's pathetic.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I must confess, I'm not crazy about this either, but the question is, was it Kelly's choice? Major Disaster was in nearly every issue of Suicide Squad, and had his nature powers rather than the Rube Goldberg of Death vision(which was, IMO, just about the coolest idea for a supervillain I've heard in ages). In fact, they even kind of drew attention to the fact that MD's behavior in the Squad was completely incongruous with what he'd been like before (which made me hope they'd *address* it, had they not been cancelled already), though the difference in powers wasn't referenced. I keep hoping that someday we'll get an explaination of exactly what happened to the Major after "Hell to Pay" (maybe he got his soul back with the Rogues, and his old powers iwth it? Would explain why he was squeamish about killing children in SS #1). One other thing...wasn't it actually Peter David who did the revamp in Aquaman, with the Flash story fleshing him out? Just my thoughts.

Peace,
Zach

[tralfaz]

ill wait for kelly to flesh out faith and MD before i make a decision about likeing them or not

[noitall]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>

The "Big 7" are the the Original Seven Members of the Silver Age League, whether or not they have their own books is beside the point. Anyhow, if having a successful on-going title is part of your criteria for membership - how are Ray or Firestorm any more worthy than J'onn? All three have had their solo series cancelled.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Come on now. Over a 100 Firestrom can hold his head up. or he could burn something.

[John Jones]

Kelly's JLA run, so far, has been hit and miss for me. I dropped after his first issue. Then I bought #65, with BM and PM, and decided to start picking it up again because that issue was great. I liked the next 2 or 3 issues after that too, then it goes downhill again. I'm just hoping #76 doesnt disapoint.

[Adam G]

I think that this is not the best time for the JLA, since the relaunch. Stories are ok but the art I think is terrible. I can't believe that nobody has said anything about that yet.
Also, how does a book like Power Company get Firestrom when everybody wants him in the league? You would think that DC would cater to their biggest book not counting Batman.

Adam <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Starsky_Hutch76]

[quote]Originally posted by MikeD:
<strong>

Err, I guess if you consider Siegel & Shuster, Curt Swan, John Byrne and Jerry Ordway (off the top of my head) to be hacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh come on. Give me a break. I wasn't referring to them and you know it. This is a great example of how some posters will say things just for the sake of having a counter point.

I was referring to the fact that DC feels it's okay to put mediocre writers on the Superman titles (and until recently, the Bat books) because they think the name alone will sell them. I guess they're starting to feel the same way about JLA.

[Academic]

[quote]Originally posted by Boink182:
<strong>As for PAD, I don't see why he should be considered any better or worse than Kelly. With YJ, PAD looked as if he tried to use new-obscure (WG, Secret, & Arrowette) or totally-new (Empress) or reimagined (Slobo) characters so that he could make YJ more interesting (which may not have happened if it remaind a book about DC's three most established teens). PAD also made his characters say and do funny things, which they may not exactly say and do in their own books.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think you're missing a major point about Young Justice: it was supposed to be about teenagers, not saving the world. For that, there's JLA.

As for the introduction of the girls: DC knew right away that they needed to expand the line-up of the series, and this being an era of equally good female characters it made sense to introduce an equal number of girls for romantic comedy a la Archie & the Gang (with Robin as Archie, Superboy as Reggie, Impulse as Jughead, Cissie as Veronica and Cassie as Betty).

They may have been second stringers, but he did interesting things with them: the whole Arrowette going over the edge story was quite well handled.

And his characters were fairly consistent with the solo books right up until the end of Superboy (when Superboy didn't act like Superboy) and recent issues of Wonder Woman (where Cassie's secret identity isn't secret).

I think a lot has to be said for Peter David coming up with loads of strong characterization (you don't feel you're missing something reading Young Justice alone) and decent flow of narrative even with solo books. Plus, he's got a good handle on the DCU -- read his Aquaman stories, or just his new Supergirl issues.

[MikeD]

[quote]Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>

Oh come on. Give me a break. I wasn't referring to them and you know it. This is a great example of how some posters will say things just for the sake of having a counter point.

I was referring to the fact that DC feels it's okay to put mediocre writers on the Superman titles (and until recently, the Bat books) because they think the name alone will sell them. I guess they're starting to feel the same way about JLA.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, it's an example of a response to the type of posters who over-generalize their statements. Case in point, Greg Rucka and Ed Brubaker have been writing Bat books post-No Man's Land for the last 2 years. I don't consider either of them to be "mediocre writers."

[Starsky_Hutch76]

The Batman writers lost me years ago. And with comics costing what they do these days, they aren't likely to lure me back. Especially when they're still doing hundred part crossovers every few months. Regardless, since my original comment was about Superman, that doesn't have much bearing here.

And going way back to your oringal statement, I think Byrne threw the baby out with the bathwater on his Superman revamp. Superman is my all time favorite character, but I've come to hate his books.

[MikeD]

[quote]Originally posted by Starsky_Hutch76:
<strong>The Batman writers lost me years ago. And with comics costing what they do these days, they aren't likely to lure me back. Especially when they're still doing hundred part crossovers every few months. Regardless, since my original comment was about Superman, that doesn't have much bearing here.

And going way back to your oringal statement, I think Byrne threw the baby out with the bathwater on his Superman revamp. Superman is my all time favorite character, but I've come to hate his books.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree that Byrne excised too much from the Superman mythos, but I still don't consider him to be a hack. My Batman comments referred to you mentioning in your 1st reply that the Bat books "until recently" had mediocre writers.

[Boink182]

[quote] Originally posted by Academic:
I think you're missing a major point about Young Justice: it was supposed to be about teenagers, not saving the world. For that, there's JLA.<hr></blockquote>

I'm just looking at the overall picture of what makes a good book. YJ and JLA began with a similar focus for the roster. While YJ mixed things up very early on, JLA has been a fixed roster for over 5 years (with very few add-ons that didn't stick around). With the 4 years PAD had with those newbie characters, added to the established ones he had to work with, he was able to bring in story elementss that only with those newbies he was able to do. This is exactly what Kelly is doing, but even before he begins, he's condemned and compared to a writer who did have 4 years to work with non-established characters and make them likeable.

And if we don't care so much about the story elements as much the purpose of the League, the characters being added are big guns. We've got a guy that can throw meteor showers at the enemy, a shaman that can make time portals and preserve dead spirits, and a major TK that can control the Demon. Thinking in practical terms, why wouldn't the League want them?

[quote]As for the introduction of the girls: DC knew right away that they needed to expand the line-up of the series, and this being an era of equally good female characters it made sense to introduce an equal number of girls for romantic comedy a la Archie & the Gang (with Robin as Archie, Superboy as Reggie, Impulse as Jughead, Cissie as Veronica and Cassie as Betty).<hr></blockquote>

Again, this is what Kelly is doing with the JLA. The established Big 7 have their own love lives in their own books, and only had one female if we count MM has a male. Even by adding more established characters, any attempts at romance may be awkward. For example, remember BC and Doc Midnite in JSA?

[quote]They may have been second stringers, but he did interesting things with them: the whole Arrowette going over the edge story was quite well handled.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, and thank goodness he was given that chance with those characters, something apparently not offered to Kelly by many fans. Faith can play roles and introduce story elements that Secret, Arrowette, and Empress added to YJ. Secret was a pretty cool mystery that every so often surprised her teamates. Both Secret and Empress involved the team with secret agencies. All three had interesting pasts, newly created by PAD, that YJ could explore. Exactly what Kelly will be doing with Faith.

[quote]And his characters were fairly consistent with the solo books right up until the end of Superboy (when Superboy didn't act like Superboy) and recent issues of Wonder Woman (where Cassie's secret identity isn't secret).<hr></blockquote>

Well, while it helped that Superboy, Robin, and Impulse were already light-hearted, PAD took it up another notch. Kelly, on the other hand, is mostly condmened for his characterization of Batman? Why? Because he sometimes used sarcasm and is funny? Batman is freakin hilarious in many of his portrayals. He was pretty funny in PAD's YJ. Ditto for Giffen's JLI. Even in his animated sereis the guy showed a pretty fun wit. Even examine the Rucka Detective stories. They were hilarious. Even Morrison gave the character some moments, right?

[quote]I think a lot has to be said for Peter David coming up with loads of strong characterization (you don't feel you're missing something reading Young Justice alone) and decent flow of narrative even with solo books. Plus, he's got a good handle on the DCU -- read his Aquaman stories, or just his new Supergirl issues. <hr></blockquote>

No argument there.

[Aaron]

Kelly's writing, IMHO, suffers from the same affliction that many other "hot" writers suffer from: a lack of subtlety.

His Batman isn't written as funny; he's written as "Look, I'm Batman, bet you didn't think I was funny." Same as his Wonder Woman. She's written as "Look, I'm Wonder Woman, bet you didn't know I could be saucy and biting."

He writes in such ham-fisted style so as to drive home the point that these characters AREN'T as stuck-up and snotty as you might think. Personally, I think he tries a bit too hard, making the dialogue ring false.

Now, this could have changed recently, as I haven't read JLA since before Obsidian Age, but that was my general feeling at that point.

Couple that with an artist who seems unable to draw more than two facial expressions and you've got a pretty cold, emotionless book.

Aaron

[Haukmoor]

I'm gonna miss Kyle as much as Plas!

[frank david]

Time to be Frank:

Let's be honest, this book has been unreadable since the very first Grant Morrison arc ended.
The writers seem to get so jazzed up for the JLA assignment that they completely overwrite everyting to the point where you don' t know what the hell is going on. While some may say that's just the "modern style," I say it's a load of crap.
While Morrison started out with great promise, he was just torture at the end; Waid seemed lost; Kelly is simply the worst. The Obsidian Age was a convoluted mess which made my head spin. It's a frigging' comic for God's sake, why is it so hard to tell a simple, compelling story?
I say give people who know how to write a crack at the book..and that's a pretty short list: Dennis O'Neill or Kevin Smith.
And bring in Green Arrow permanently, to keep those Fat Cat editors honest.

[Starsky_Hutch76]

Mark Waid's run was acually my favorite. Morrison's became almost as unreadable as Kelly's towards the end, so any good feelings about his time in the book were ruined. Towards the end, I almost felt like I was reading the cliffnotes of a better story that I wasn't getting to see.