How financially feasible are Indy Comics?

[JimShelley]

I've seen it written several places that the break even point for a Marvel/DC book is around 12,000 issues.

However, it seems to me that based on the monthly sales chart, many Indy comics with big names that I really like (GodLand, Fear Agent, BSG Zarek) don't even come close to selling that amount. (They seem to sell more like 4,000 copies)

Is the break even point for Indy comics different?

[NoPrize]

I've seen it written several places that the break even point for a Marvel/DC book is around 12,000 issues.

However, it seems to me that based on the monthly sales chart, many Indy comics with big names that I really like (GodLand, Fear Agent, BSG Zarek) don't even come close to selling that amount. (They seem to sell more like 4,000 copies)

Is the break even point for Indy comics different?

For Indy books its a different situation. Most of the talent write, draw and edit their own books. But for those with independent publishers, they print to order--saving cost over run.

[Jack_Bauer]

If Marvel had a comic only selling 12,000 copies, I'm pretty sure it'd be canned ASAP.

[adamcasey]

With indy comics, it's a "for love of the game" kind of situation. Also, a lot of sales for independent publishers are at conventions, where they get the full amount, as opposed to 40% of the cover price through Diamond.

[jza1218]

For Indy books its a different situation. Most of the talent write, draw and edit their own books. But for those with independent publishers, they print to order--saving cost over run.

Not to mention that advertising for independent comics aren't as ambitious as the larger companies.

And even some indie creators expect a loss. They just want to get their books out there and build up a following and a résumé

[JimShelley]

They just want to get their books out there and build up a following

Hm...I'm not seeing any advantages to what I'm doing from what you say:

I've already got a huge following with my Flashback Universe. My e-mail newsletter list takes me about 20 minutes each day just to update with the new subscribers. My downloads are in the 5 digit realm now.

As for expecting a loss - ugh - I definitely don't want to do that. Currently, I'm breaking even with my downloads and donations.

And I'm not sold that the Indy guys do that great at conventions - seems to me I see plenty of tables at conventions with lonely guys sitting beside stacks of their comics and no one visiting them all convention long.

I'm going to have a booth at HeroesCon this year, and the last thing I'm going to do is be one of those guys. I'm planning on having fun at that convention and making it fun for the attendees and not worry about "How am I going to sell my stacks of self published comic."

Shameless HeroesCon Plug
If any of you guys are at the convention come look for my booth. Chris Sims from the The Invincible Super Blog (http://the-isb.blogspot.com/) and Chad Bowers from Danger Ace (http://www.silverbulletcomics.com/news/story.php?a=4309) are going to be at the booth with me, so we should be having a lot of fun lively discussions going on! :)

[jza1218]

Hm...I'm not seeing any advantages to what I'm doing from what you say:

I've already got a huge following with my Flashback Universe. My e-mail newsletter list takes me about 20 minutes each day just to update with the new subscribers. My downloads are in the 5 digit realm now.

As for expecting a loss - ugh - I definitely don't want to do that. Currently, I'm breaking even with my downloads and donations.

And I'm not sold that the Indy guys do that great at conventions - seems to me I see plenty of tables at conventions with lonely guys sitting beside stacks of their comics and no one visiting them all convention long.

I'm going to have a booth at HeroesCon this year, and the last thing I'm going to do is be one of those guys. I'm planning on having fun at that convention and making it fun for the attendees and not worry about "How am I going to sell my stacks of self published comic."

Shameless HeroesCon Plug
If any of you guys are at the convention come look for my booth. Chris Sims from the The Invincible Super Blog (http://the-isb.blogspot.com/) and Chad Bowers from Danger Ace (http://www.silverbulletcomics.com/news/story.php?a=4309) are going to be at the booth with me, so we should be having a lot of fun lively discussions going on! :)

Honestly, some people don't like the online format and prefer to read an actual physical copy.

Giving out a physical book seems safer to some people as well, because it's more straight forward and simple rather than giving someone a business card and forcing them to do the work of heading to your website and downloading it to their computer. Its the whole KISS method.

[JimShelley]

someone a business card and forcing them to do the work of heading to your website and downloading it to their computer. Its the whole KISS method

I TOTALLY agree with this - those business cards always get lost in the durn bag from the convention anyway. Heck, sometimes the free comics take months before I get to them.

Part of me REALLY wants to avoid that whole, "Here's my business card thing..."
What I might do is a nice one page parody to hand out for people to read right then and there with my web address at the bottom of the page...

[jza1218]

I TOTALLY agree with this - those business cards always get lost in the durn bag from the convention anyway. Heck, sometimes the free comics take months before I get to them.

Part of me REALLY wants to avoid that whole, "Here's my business card thing..."
What I might do is a nice one page parody to hand out for people to read right then and there with my web address at the bottom of the page...

And that's kinda why they eat printing costs sometimes.

If you're able to get a physical copy of your book in the hands of someone like Tom Brevoort. You're probably one step ahead of someone who gave him their business card.

It shows that you're able to create a full product and they can check to see if you script well

[JimShelley]

If you're able to get a physical copy of your book in the hands of someone like Tom Brevoort.

What does that do for me?

[jza1218]

What does that do for me?

I mean for prospective creators who want to eventually work for the major companies. Not you specifically.

[JimShelley]

Ah...Thank you for clearing that up - I can be sort of dense sometimes. :)

[render man]

Well at Image a book needs to sell at least 3000 issues for the creator to see any profit. Probably the same at most Image level indy companies.
Now self publishing, unless you have a big hit like Bone, I can't see making a nice living off of self-publishing. Modern comics industry makes it real real hard on the small self publisher.

[JMarsh642]

it really depends

some indy titles have the same person who draws, writes, letters, inks, edits and publishes :eek:

also, black and white comics are a lot more prevalent among indy comics, which also saves on production costs

a comic like Strangers in Paradise might not be a big success if Marvel had done it, but between Terry Moore and his wife, they do everything. Not to mention all of the different reprintings the story has gone through.

Original, reprinted singles, colored singles, tpbs, hcs, pocket books....

Now think about owning your own characters. So you get a bigger slice of merchandising (admittedly, a t-shirt of Phone Bone while cute will not sell as well as a t-shirt with Spiderman or Superman) but you should take into account royalties on successful franchises.

There are possibilities of video games, movies, cartoons, action figures, busts, HeroClix...

[NoPrize]

3,000 number print run at 2.99 per issue equals roughly $9,000 a month dollar revenue or $108,000 annually

with a 40% cut to produce more than likely 60% for total costs if you are under an Indy publisher.
Meaning you make $43,000 per book yearly----not figuring convention appearances or merchandising

[Mario Gully]

3,000 number print run at 2.99 per issue equals roughly $9,000 a month dollar revenue or $108,000 annually

with a 40% cut to produce more than likely 60% for total costs if you are under an Indy publisher.
Meaning you make $43,000 per book yearly----not figuring convention appearances or merchandising

Man, you are way off.....

[adamcasey]

And I'm not sold that the Indy guys do that great at conventions - seems to me I see plenty of tables at conventions with lonely guys sitting beside stacks of their comics and no one visiting them all convention long.

It depends. If your character is Wolverine just in a blue outfit, no, no one is really going to latch on to you.

From what I've seen, Top Shelf does great at conventions, especially with Owly books (because Andy Runton is always there, and he's the nicest guy in comics.) They were selling out of Lost Girls at shows as it first came off the boat. The Supernatural Law group does well.

I've seen Rob Ullman do well. You may not know him, he did a comic called Grand Gestures released through Alternative Comics back around 2000 and he does illustrations for the Savage Love column. Anyways, he has this cheesecake/Bruce Timm style and sells quite a bit of stuff at shows.

Basically if you're pitch is "I'm just like Marvel and DC... but not!", then it's a dud. Something new and original, usually with a creative voice so that readers can see the identities peek through the comic, those do well at shows.

[Ferburton]

There is a lot of, doing it for the love of it, in hopes of getting somewhere hopefully, when you're publishing an indy comic, more then likely they aren't very self-sufficient and you have to put everything you have into them usually. It helps if it's really good and you gain yourself a cult following of fans, then you're guaranteed sales atleast, but the reason I'd think you see alot of indy comic creators sitting alone is because they're relatively new or they're in a place where they aren't known and they're trying to get more readers.

[NoPrize]

Man, you are way off.....

Enlighten me

[Mario Gully]

Enlighten me

That's difficult because there are so many variables. Printing and production is the major factor and that varies from project to project.

This is my take on it..Indy or not people ( comic fans) simply want to be entertained. If you produce a good comic people will want it. Why? because it's good. Pretty simple in my opinion. I read all the time how this guy say "this works" and another guy says "this won't work". but truth is that nobody knows. NOBODY. Sure you can take an educated guess but fans buy books. Ultimately, they determine what is successful. I've also seen seasoned pros that draws a major book at Marvel or D.C be alone at a convention artist alley table. I've been a lone a couple of times and at times I've had huge crowds. Doe's that mean anything? Probably not.

I'm asked this question all the time. "Can you do an Indy book pay the bills"? The truth is that it can depend on what kind of bills you have. I have 4 kids and a stay at home wife and Ant has paid plenty of bills. Once I got a bigger house and a bigger car then I had to think about some things. If I was single and living in a one bedroom house then the money I make from Image and Marvel would make me rich. But I don't live that way.

So it all depends guys. Let's be realistic. I know guys that make 300,000 a year and they are still broke because they have a house full of stuff and that stuff only creates more bills.

The truth is that MOST indy books have low sales. Even the top selling indy book sales are low compared to the Main stream stuff. Do some some guys make a profit. Sure. I did but I penciled/ wrote/ and inked my book. Can you do more then break even? sure, if you're lucky or talented enough to make a book that has a following.

I don't know nothing about Marvel's beak even point. I think that a company like Marvel and D.C don't even design their business that way. Or do you think they get paid nothing for those fat car ads and Playstation ads in their books?

[NoPrize]

That's difficult because there are so many variables. Printing and production is the major factor and that varies from project to project.

This is my take on it..Indy or not people ( comic fans) simply want to be entertained. If you produce a good comic people will want it. Why? because it's good. Pretty simple in my opinion. I read all the time how this guy say "this works" and another guy says "this won't work". but truth is that nobody knows. NOBODY. Sure you can take an educated guess but fans buy books. Ultimately, they determine what is successful. I've also seen seasoned pros that draws a major book at Marvel or D.C be alone at a convention artist alley table. I've been a lone a couple of times and at times I've had huge crowds. Doe's that mean anything? Probably not.

I'm asked this question all the time. "Can you do an Indy book pay the bills"? The truth is that it can depending on what kind of bills you have. I have 4 kids and a stay at home wife and Ant has paid plenty of bills. Once I got a bigger house and a bigger car then I had to think about some things. If I was single and living in a one bedroom house then the money I make from Image and Marvel would make me rich. But I don't live that way.

So it all depends guys. Let's be realistic. I know guys that make 300,000 a year and they are still broke because they have a house full of stuff and that stuff only creates more bills.

The truth is that MOST indy books have low sales. Even the top selling indy book sales are low compared to the Main stream stuff. Do some some guys make a profit. Sure. I did but I penciled/ wrote/ and inked my book. Can you do more then break even. sure if you that has a book that has a following.

I don't know nothing about Marvel's beak even point. I think that a company like Marvel and D.C don't even design their business that way. Or do you think they get paid nothing for those fat car ads and Playstation ads in their books?

Thank you for the insight. I had no idea what exactly went into being in this field. I was just trying to encourage the thread creator with some numbers I dug up from Diamond. My eyes have been opened.

[Mario Gully]

Thank you for the insight. I had no idea what exactly went into being in this field. I was just trying to encourage the thread creator with some numbers I dug up from Diamond. My eyes have been opened.

Hey, no prob.

I just want to say that...everyone is different. Every ideal is different. I NEVER listened to the people that told me that I couldn't make it or that the indy market didn't need another super hero comic book. And believe me I had many that thought that it wasn't worth my time. It all boils down to believing in yourself. What book concept or how you do what don't matter in my opinion. I 'm a guy that always thought that I could do anything if I put my mind to it. That's what my mom told me. Sure, I've had times that I cried at night because of a publisher crushing my dreams or an editor hurting my feelings.. but you can use that pain and gain strength from it.

Just do the damn book and see what happens...Speculators will always be there and they will also BUY YOUR BOOK and speculate about it. :)

[Ferburton]

I agree. You'll never know what you're capable of if you don't even try. If you can't just jump in to the big leagues then prove them wrong your own way. It's a learning processes as how I see it. No matter what you'll learn something from it and it shouldn't discourage you if your first book isn't a glorified success. I'm new to the game myself. I'm working on a book right now that I'm going to self publish for a con in June. I'm hoping it'll be a sucess at this con, but even if it isn't I'm not going to suddenly stop making comics and give up. I'm only 19, I can't expect to sweep people off their feet and make huge sales straight from the get-go. Sure it'd be great, but one shouldn't give their hopes up. If you're going to be an indy artist go in to it knowing that what you're doing is outside the mainstream and that everything is on you and showing what you're worth. Don't expect high sales is what I gotta say unless you've been in the game for a while and you've got a name in the indy crowd.

[adamcasey]

If you produce a good comic people will want it. Why? because it's good. Pretty simple in my opinion.

The thing is, if people only wanted good comics, then a lot of the struggling middle to lower tier titles would be top sellers and the phoned in comics wouldn't be published at all.

People's opinion of what is 'good' is subjective.

[JimShelley]

Mario - thank you for the information! Very cool to get a pro's perspective!

What you say echoes what Mike Baron said about 20 years ago, btw. So I guess the industry hasn't changed that much. :)

[Mario Gully]

The thing is, if people only wanted good comics, then a lot of the struggling middle to lower tier titles would be top sellers and the phoned in comics wouldn't be published at all.

People's opinion of what is 'good' is subjective.

I met me majority man. Subjective or not. Just like the Majority of the comic fans like Civil War. It's determined by copies sold and pretty much nothing else.

[Metall-x]

I have several scripts I would love to self publish, but lack of an ability to pencil or ink leaves the idea high and dry..if one would like to self publish..you need to be an artist.

[Mario Gully]

I have several scripts I would love to self publish, but lack of an ability to pencil or ink leaves the idea high and dry..if one would like to self publish..you need to be an artist.


Or a sweet talker and talk an artist into drawing the book for him.:p

[Ferburton]

Well you can always find an artist in a friend or on the net and if they like your writing and would like to draw with you then that can always happen. There are teams that self-publish too. I saw a few in Wizard this month when I was looking through the indy section they had set aside. But I think the majority is self-created work because it makes things easier and then you don't have to look for an artist or a writer. But there are people who can't draw and those who can that are trying to break in to the industry as well. I see ad's for that stuff sometimes when I'm looking around.

[Metall-x]

Or a sweet talker and talk an artist into drawing the book for him.:p


hmm..being a great artist and probably an excellant father, perhaps you would be interested in penciling/inking a comic for a relatively new(sold one script) writer/creator....:D

[Ferburton]

hmm..being a great artist and probably an excellant father, perhaps you would be interested in penciling/inking a comic for a relatively new(sold one script) writer/creator....:D

Selling a script is better then what most people have gotten done. I'm sure if you look hard, go to conventions, ask on forums, you'll find a good artist to start you on a successful career. :)

[Metall-x]

Selling a script is better then what most people have gotten done. I'm sure if you look hard, go to conventions, ask on forums, you'll find a good artist to start you on a successful career. :)


Yeah..i have tried..paid an artist do some pages(12+cover), but was too up and down in quality to be publishable

but if any artist out there wants to help..i'd be glad to share a script or two lol.

[Mario Gully]

hmm..being a great artist and probably an excellant father, perhaps you would be interested in penciling/inking a comic for a relatively new(sold one script) writer/creator....:D

Sorry man, I'm way too busy.If I attempted to draw or ink another project , I will probably end up in divorce court. Wouldn't be a good father no more...:(

Ferburton is right though... Selling a script is better then most...just keep hunting. You are bound to find a guy that is qualified enough to do your project.

I'm sure.

[Ferburton]

The fact people show interest in fleshing out your work at all should tell you that you've atleast got talent. Keep going and I'm sure you'll be in the indy market with some good stuff and some fans. Maybe start sending in your stories to some places like Avatar. I know they have an application page you can submit stuff too. :)

[render man]

3,000 number print run at 2.99 per issue equals roughly $9,000 a month dollar revenue or $108,000 annually

with a 40% cut to produce more than likely 60% for total costs if you are under an Indy publisher.
Meaning you make $43,000 per book yearly----not figuring convention appearances or merchandising
Actually you are forgetting a distributor and the chunk they take. Diamond for example takes 60%, others might only take 40 or 50%. So really if your cover price is 3 bucks, you are only getting. 1.80 per book if you sell through Diamond. So at 3000 copies sold per month...you after all only get $5400. Subtract printing costs of about $1000-1500 for 3000 copies mattering on kind of paper and the printer. You have approximately $3200. Then subtract any marketing costs, which is all up to you, whether you travel to conventions, give away free copies, print up brochures, etc. So really an indy comic publisher is barely gonna break even, if they do that.

For one a new indy publisher is not gonna sell through on their print run initially. Maybe after some hardcore marketing, and due diligence you may sell through that initial print run, but are you willing to do it month in and month out. And do you have the financial resources to do so?

[Carlos Javier]

It's possible to find an artist if you're a beginning scriptwriter, but incredibly difficult. I think the more fleshed out your concept is combined with your willingness to collobarate the actual execution (that includes story input) will help you alot. Personally, I decided to go ahead and just learn how to draw myself. Hopefully in another year, I'll have all the basic artistic tools needed to maybe do a startup webcomic. Maybe if a good artist likes the story enough he or she will offer their services for a print version.

[Verne Andru]

It depends. If your character is Wolverine just in a blue outfit, no, no one is really going to latch on to you.

From what I've seen, Top Shelf does great at conventions, especially with Owly books (because Andy Runton is always there, and he's the nicest guy in comics.) They were selling out of Lost Girls at shows as it first came off the boat. The Supernatural Law group does well.

I've seen Rob Ullman do well. You may not know him, he did a comic called Grand Gestures released through Alternative Comics back around 2000 and he does illustrations for the Savage Love column. Anyways, he has this cheesecake/Bruce Timm style and sells quite a bit of stuff at shows.

Basically if you're pitch is "I'm just like Marvel and DC... but not!", then it's a dud. Something new and original, usually with a creative voice so that readers can see the identities peek through the comic, those do well at shows.

Curious. The first "indy" books were the Freak Bros., Cheech Wizard and the other "undergrounds" that sold through headshops and music stores. There were no comic shops at the time and their appeal was broader, IMO, than a Superman or Batman. They were totally different from the mainstream, which is why they gathered a following. Then some of the disgruntled mainstream boys, Mike Fredrich, etc., decided to jump on the bandwagon and indy comics started looking more and more like what the big boys were doing, a trend that has persisted to this day.

I was just at ECCC and there are tons of unoriginal books that appear to be selling exclusively to the fan market, but don't have much appeal outside it. By way of contrast, I did my 420 project to try and recapture the spirit of the original indies. I had a great show at the ECCC, but there were a lot of people who just didn't get it - they want more of the same-old, same-old. Perhaps 1 in 5 stopped to chat and buy. Those that got it, really got it. Those that didn't, may never. But that's just a day in the life of marketing anything. The more eyeballs/prospects you can talk to, the higher the likelihood of you finding someone willing to exchange their money for your product.

I think indy comics can be profitable if its approached as a franchise and not exclusively a comic-centric one. I created 420 to be a feature-film first, then chose to issue it as a series of comics that can be sold through a number of different channels along with the rest of the franchise merchandise. Comic shops/cons are an obvious channel, but I also sell through head-shops, tatoo shops, music stores, etc. If I had just done another "Spiderman" I'd be stuck as a comic-book wannabe. But doing a franchise based around "Captain Cannabis" opens a bunch of alternate selling channels that gives me much broader appeal and reach than just being comic-centric.

Most comic book people think only in terms of comics. You have to think "franchise" and multiple sales/distribution channels - as any other manufacture has to do - in order to create a business model that makes, rather than costs, money.

[adamcasey]

Most comic book people think only in terms of comics. You have to think "franchise" and multiple sales/distribution channels - as any other manufacture has to do - in order to create a business model that makes, rather than costs, money.

Yeah, if you come by the Small Press Expo, you'll see comics, along side dolls, pins, stickers, t-shirts and other things, all with a handmade/lo-fi touch to them.

[Verne Andru]

During the 70's I made a trip to NY to visit with Marvel & DC. I met with Marie Severin, then editor-in-chief at Marvel. She was very gracious and granted me the following words of wisdom -> I'd never go anywhere in the business until I understand that the story/art is simply filler between the ads. I struggled with that for quite some time.

About a decade later I was an marketing executive buying ad space in places like Time Magazine. Just for interest sake I took a look through the SRDS [that's the Standard Rates and Data for advertising costs, demographics, etc.] and was floored at the page rates Marvel and DC were/are getting. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars to run a single page ad in some of their titles. For them the cover price is merely to cover printing costs, yet indies try to eek out a living by cover price almost exclusively.

The business models between Marvel/DC and the indies are completely different. Marvel could, if they chose to, give away their comics for free, get a higher circulation base allowing them to raise their ad rates and actually make more money by not charging for their books. Indies can't do that.

Most public libraries keep copies of SRDS in their reference shelves. Anyone interested in a bit of a shock should take a look at what Marvel/DC charge for advertising. It'll change the way you look at the comics business and underscore those few words of wisdom Ms. Severin shared with me 3 decades ago.

[render man]

During the 70's I made a trip to NY to visit with Marvel & DC. I met with Marie Severin, then editor-in-chief at Marvel. She was very gracious and granted me the following words of wisdom -> I'd never go anywhere in the business until I understand that the story/art is simply filler between the ads. I struggled with that for quite some time.

About a decade later I was an marketing executive buying ad space in places like Time Magazine. Just for interest sake I took a look through the SRDS [that's the Standard Rates and Data for advertising costs, demographics, etc.] and was floored at the page rates Marvel and DC were/are getting. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars to run a single page ad in some of their titles. For them the cover price is merely to cover printing costs, yet indies try to eek out a living by cover price almost exclusively.

The business models between Marvel/DC and the indies are completely different. Marvel could, if they chose to, give away their comics for free, get a higher circulation base allowing them to raise their ad rates and actually make more money by not charging for their books. Indies can't do that.

Most public libraries keep copies of SRDS in their reference shelves. Anyone interested in a bit of a shock should take a look at what Marvel/DC charge for advertising. It'll change the way you look at the comics business and underscore those few words of wisdom Ms. Severin shared with me 3 decades ago.
And that's why Marie Severin is...Marie Severin. That's why they are Marvel or DC. Those words of advice are good for a business exec sure, but if thats all an artist thought when he/she created their comics, do you think anybody would buy it? I personally dont make my comics as filler. I doubt any successful comics artist does. Small press, indy whatever can't worry about getting great ad rates when they have to do their best comics just to get people to look at their books. The great advertising can come later.

[Not From Around]

Actually you are forgetting a distributor and the chunk they take. Diamond for example takes 60%, others might only take 40 or 50%. So really if your cover price is 3 bucks, you are only getting. 1.80 per book if you sell through Diamond. So at 3000 copies sold per month...you after all only get $5400. Subtract printing costs of about $1000-1500 for 3000 copies mattering on kind of paper and the printer. You have approximately $3200. Then subtract any marketing costs, which is all up to you, whether you travel to conventions, give away free copies, print up brochures, etc. So really an indy comic publisher is barely gonna break even, if they do that.

For one a new indy publisher is not gonna sell through on their print run initially. Maybe after some hardcore marketing, and due diligence you may sell through that initial print run, but are you willing to do it month in and month out. And do you have the financial resources to do so?

That sounds more like the sorts of figures I've heard.

Making a living at self-published comics is not altogether impossible. Dave Sim and Gerhard seem to have done well enough for themselves publishing twelve issues a year of "Cerebus" with a circulation of about five thousand copies, plus whatever they made from selling their "phonebook" reprints. Jeff Smith had an international hit with "Bone."

There aren't many other success stories like this, though. For the most part, a self-publisher is fortunate to make comics a sideline that pays for itself while the main job (whatever it may be) pays most of the bills. Most self-publishers lose most of their initial investment.

[Stressfactor]

There are also a lot of online and physical groups out there to help small press comic book creators. A lot of time Artists find writers and writers find artists through these groups.

The electronic age makes it a lot easier for writers and artists to collaborate across vast distances and just as there are writers out there who just want to get their writing in some form of print to get it out in the open there are artists who want to get their work out there to get some notice.

Good luck to all who venture into the market!

[Verne Andru]

And that's why Marie Severin is...Marie Severin. That's why they are Marvel or DC. Those words of advice are good for a business exec sure, but if thats all an artist thought when he/she created their comics, do you think anybody would buy it? I personally dont make my comics as filler. I doubt any successful comics artist does. Small press, indy whatever can't worry about getting great ad rates when they have to do their best comics just to get people to look at their books. The great advertising can come later.

Thing is, I was there looking for a gig as an artist, not an exec. I became an exec long after the fact, but still always an artist at heart.

I hear you as far as the quality of the art goes, and in a way that's why the indies will never be overly successful. Comics started as merchandising gimmicks - they were give-aways in boxes of cereal and such. When they started out they never had to worry about making a profit since they were, by design, a marketing expense. It was only after they created a huge distribution base that the advertising got worked into the mix and they became stand-alone - funded by ad sales, not the cover price.

I suspect, but can't prove, the cover price for Marvel and DC are set in such a way as to pay Diamond for distributing [so they don't have to] plus a bit to cover printing costs. Since Diamond's main business is Marvel and DC, and those companies don't need to charge anything for their product to turn huge profits, I'm sure the terms set by Diamond are onerous only to the indie publishers. It's actually a boon for Marvel and DC because it creates such an unlevel playing field that it's almost impossible for an indie to grow to the point where they can come even close to challenging their hold on the market. Whether this is by design or happy circumstance isn't really the point. The point is, if you try to play the game by their rules [which all the indies I've seen are doing], you will always lose because that's the way things have been setup.

But indie publishing concerns are created by artists, writers and fans with little to no business experience. It's the passion for the art and story, in the ultimate, that is is the indies greatest impediment.

[NoPrize]

Love the avatar, i wonder what stock of paper that book is printed on heh heh :D


Thing is, I was there looking for a gig as an artist, not an exec. I became an exec long after the fact, but still always an artist at heart.

I hear you as far as the quality of the art goes, and in a way that's why the indies will never be overly successful. Comics started as merchandising gimmicks - they were give-aways in boxes of cereal and such. When they started out they never had to worry about making a profit since they were, by design, a marketing expense. It was only after they created a huge distribution base that the advertising got worked into the mix and they became stand-alone - funded by ad sales, not the cover price.

I suspect, but can't prove, the cover price for Marvel and DC are set in such a way as to pay Diamond for distributing [so they don't have to] plus a bit to cover printing costs. Since Diamond's main business is Marvel and DC, and those companies don't need to charge anything for their product to turn huge profits, I'm sure the terms set by Diamond are onerous only to the indie publishers. It's actually a boon for Marvel and DC because it creates such an unlevel playing field that it's almost impossible for an indie to grow to the point where they can come even close to challenging their hold on the market. Whether this is by design or happy circumstance isn't really the point. The point is, if you try to play the game by their rules [which all the indies I've seen are doing], you will always lose because that's the way things have been setup.

But indie publishing concerns are created by artists, writers and fans with little to no business experience. It's the passion for the art and story, in the ultimate, that is is the indies greatest impediment.

[Verne Andru]

Love the avatar, i wonder what stock of paper that book is printed on heh heh :D

Believe me, I tried. I ran the book on a web press and that stock doesn't come in web rolls - yet. It's the first in a series of 13, so there's still time. :cool:

BTW [shameless plug here] April 20th this year marks the 30th anniversary of my Captain Cannabis character. To celebrate I'm having a draw for a retail book copy, a signed and numbered artist proof and a DVD. All you have to do to qualify is register for the newsletter [with a valid email address]. Details are at www.okee.com and www.captaincannabis.com.

[render man]

But indie publishing concerns are created by artists, writers and fans with little to no business experience. It's the passion for the art and story, in the ultimate, that is is the indies greatest impediment.
And I am going to have to disagree here too. The passion for the art and story is not an impediment, if anything its the exact opposite. Look at Bone, probably the most successful indy comic story ever. Did he slack on the art and story side just to get an issue out to appeal to some kind of future investment or advertiser? Definitely not.

Look at Marvel and DC who do art and story that is a lot of times of low quality and is just filler between advertisements...will we remember those books years from now as something extraordinary? Will those books have the chance of becoming, cartoons, video games, movies, little kids toys? Probably not. So saying our(including you) commitment to excellent art and story is an impediment, I think is wrong. It will be what makes our comic more memorable to a reader rather than the next issue of the astounding x-men featuring 50 different ads, y'know? But really its all we got is our commitment to do our best, because even Image can't get regular advertisements? Even with a lot of advertisements would the comic make money if noone is picking it up to read?

[Verne Andru]

IMO the question posed by this thread bears more on the business/financial aspects of the independent comic publishers than the creative. I have no argument with you that it's the passion for great art, stories and collectibles that spurns the fans to part with their hard-earned dollars, but that's just a part of the sales pie. I have not looked at the numbers in quite a few years, but I do recall that the "fan" component of Marvel and DC's business wasn't all that significant. This changed somewhat as the dedicated comic shops came into being, but I'd still bet the lion's share of their sales come from newsstands where the motivation to purchase is driven differently than in a dedicated comic shop.

Here's a case in point - I have a 16 year old son. His early comic consumption was Archies and Sonic the Hedgehog. In the case of the former, the stories have been recycled and repackaged from the 50's and 60's - I'm not sure they've done new material in years. Both the Archie and Sonics are - IMO - substandard in terms of art and story, but they sell like hotcakes - he loved them. Now that he's in his teens, and should have graduated to collecting Marvels and DC's, he's off in the world of interactive computer games. He has no time, or interest in comic books at all. And he isn't the exception - all his friends have followed the same pattern. They've jumped from the "kiddie" stuff right over the teen books and into an entirely different medium altogether. This same phenomenon is plaguing the broadcast industry as well, as I witnessed at a NATPE conference a number of years ago. The ground is shifting as we type - it's almost like quicksand these days.

So, what do the indies have to do to answer the thread question in the affirmative? My position is they have to "think different." As long as they create art and stories that could easily appear in a Marvel or DC, they're just doing more of the same-old, same-old. If they insist on trying to conduct their business the same way Marvel and DC do, that is sell through Diamond at 60-70% discounts and try to compete for advertising dollars without the circulation numbers, the chances for success are slim to none. The table is stacked against them.

But this brings up the bigger discussion over what one considers "success." If we lived in a perfect world, people would be able to indulge in their art and not have to worry about paying the bills. Unfortunately our world is far from perfect, and sales become a driving barometer to success - particularly within American culture.

Do indies have a future and an opportunity to succeed? I believe so, but not by following traditional business models. What is the magic formula to success? If I had the answer to that I wouldn't be spending my time posting to forums like this. :D

[render man]

Yeah I totally see what you are saying when you talk Sonic and Archie comics, even though they arent seeing mad sales like they used to either, advertisers know that if they reach those readers they have a chance at making money on em elsewhere. Whereas "straight" indy comics are more a niche audience. I just think if you want to "hit it big" with an indy comic you have to have an outstanding concept, ala Bone, Cerebus, and a few others. So yeah I could argue and argue and the answer would still be the same as you are concluding that indy comics are not financially feasible in a majority sense. But if you do have that great concept and a little initiative you could really really hit it big, but odds are like what 1 and 500 million maybe? But ask any artist if they have the passion and the drive no limitation be it money or lack of success will stop them from doing what they feel they need to do. So I say f*cking do it, and see what happens, you can always make more money.

[Metall-x]

The key is simple..if you are a penciller who can also write..you have a shot. If you are friends with a penciller, you have a shot. If you are a lone writer...your screwed.

[JimShelley]

Here's a case in point - I have a 16 year old son. His early comic consumption was Archies and Sonic the Hedgehog. In the case of the former, the stories have been recycled and repackaged from the 50's and 60's - I'm not sure they've done new material in years.

Both the Archie and Sonics are - IMO - substandard in terms of art and story, but they sell like hotcakes - he loved them. Now that he's in his teens, and should have graduated to collecting Marvels and DC's, he's off in the world of interactive computer games. He has no time, or interest in comic books at all. And he isn't the exception - all his friends have followed the same pattern.

They've jumped from the "kiddie" stuff right over the teen books and into an entirely different medium altogether. This same phenomenon is plaguing the broadcast industry as well, as I witnessed at a NATPE conference a number of years ago. The ground is shifting as we type - it's almost like quicksand these days.

A lot of good points here that I've seen separately in other threads, but not combined like this...I wonder if this hasn't always been the case with comics, and the problem in sales started when the industry shifted away from stories for kids and started aiming at the teenager market that Stan Lee had discovered.

Last year I had the good fortune to talk to Don Rosa, of Donald Duck fame, and he said the direct market was a blessing and a curse. It saved comics when the newstands were shutting them out, but it's also ghettoized them as a commodity in that the only people who know to purchase them are the dedicated fanboys. WHEN was the last time you saw a 10 year old at a comic shop? (Who wasn't being dragged along by his dad, who was the real customer.)

So, if what we are saying is that the BEST potential market for comics is an age group that the marketplace doesn't serve, well...that's pretty sad news. :(

[Verne Andru]

Let me share a story. A few years back I attended the NATPE [National Association of Television Production Executives] in New Orleans [before the flood]. A keynote speaker was the head of one of the big 3 broadcasters. He shared his story, starting it off by saying that his job used to be pretty simple. He'd come in at 7 am to find a fax on his desk with the previous days ratings. All the networks shows were listed along with the percentage of viewers per show. If one of his shows lost 30%, all he'd have to do is look across to see what networks/show picked them up and he'd plan his day [schedule shuffle] accordingly.

Then, much to his surprise, he started noticing numbers falling off the page. Now he was losing 30% but they were not going to the other shows - they disappeared. So he hired a research company to track down where they were going and was shocked at the results. People were turning off their TV's. They were watching videos, playing computer games, surfing the internet and, heaven help us, even going for walks and talking to each other. This was in 1999 and I'm sure the trend has continued unabated. Exactly the same dynamics are playing out in other areas, including publishing comic books.

When I was doing marketing consultation one of the first things I'd have my clients do was fill out a marketing profile. The bottom line was to determine what business they were in, who their market and competition was, and what was their sustainable competitive advantage.

Marvel and DC are in the advertising premium business - they always have. Indies are in the publishing business. Completely different businesses. You're both playing on a checkered board, but they are playing chess while you're playing checkers - and Diamond is playing both sides to their advantage.

One of the reasons Disney was so successful in the early years was that he used stories from the public domain. He didn't have to worry about paying intellectual property rights to some creator, he just grabbed what was free and gave it his own spin. Every production house I've ever worked for has the exact same mentality. Why pickup a property that already has strings attached [which cost money and anguish] when they can simply develop it themselves, in-house? If you're lucky enough to develop a Harry Potter, the rules get bent a bit, but those are one in billions.

Creating a comic book in the hopes it'll hit big and get made into a film, game, whatever, is a losing strategy, IMO. If you are developing a property that you want to be made into a movie, game, book, etc., design it for those media from the outset and develop your own product/brand to that end.

It comes down to your mission statement. Mine is that I'm making an adult-orient movie with books and a games component. To this end, my unique and sustainable selling proposition is my character - Captain Cannabis - designed in such a way that none of the majors would ever think of stealing the idea [and yes, that goes on all the time]. When I do the artwork for my comics, I'm creating the feature film layouts that are of a high enough resolution I can also use them in the game. Sure, it's taking longer than doing a bunch of panels on a page, but the payoff comes once the books are done - I'll have all the artwork necessary to roll out the other stuff.

Will my approach work? I believe so, but it's never been done this way before. Is it risky? Sure, but no more than if I was self-publishing the traditional way. Is it the only way to do it differently? Absolutely not. You have to strive to "think different" because that's what's going to set you apart from the rest. Define your unique sustainable selling proposition and find a way to make it happen. Creating the story and art is the easy part.

[perk9600]

Diamond really is having their cake and eating it.

Of course the Marvel/DC cake is about 95% of the total cake and while they are playing both sides clearly they have a stake in the big 2's continued vaibility.

An interesting point raised by you is that the big 2 basically use the revenue they recieve from Diamond to cover costs. I would imagine that they do suceed in doing that. I know that Newspapers don't even come close to covering printing costs, but that is another issue entirely. My point is maybe fans should direct a little more venom at Diamond the next time thier favorite book goes up in price by a quarter. I mean they (diamond) only have a 60% gross margin! God forbid that went down a little. ;) That is one heck of a buisiness they have there. (Marvel's gross margin was 70%, an astronomical figure for a non software company)

[Verne Andru]

Diamond is no saint, to be sure, but the real culprits are Marvel and DC. You see, they are the ones who have created this illusion that they are in the publishing business - all Diamond is doing is maintaining the lie.

If you truly want to help the indies, that must be done at the expense of the majors. Every time you purchase a title from Marvel/DC, the money you are paying goes into Diamonds pocket - and to a lesser degree Quebecor [the printers]. More insidious, every time you buy one of their books another number gets added to the circulation base for that magazine. Advertising rates are charged on the basis of circulation, so when you bump up the circ, the companies follow suit and bump up rates they charge advertisers - and that money goes straight into their pocket.

Ever wonder why Marvel and DC don't take returns from Diamond? If they did they would have to reduce their circulation numbers accordingly. They make more money by having Diamond toss unsold books in the trash through the higher circulation/printing numbers, than accepting them back and reducing their ad rates - i.e. reimburse advertisers. Of course, returns or lack thereof, are the death knell to the indies - but then again, they are in a completely different business.

Stop buying Marvel, DC and stop buying through stores that stock through Diamond. Order online from the indies directly or through places like Amazon.com. This is ultimately where the business is going. I saw the same things happening in the software biz in the early 90's. Egghead Software was as bad, if not worse, than Diamond. They were arrogant and insisted people would always buy through bricks and mortar stores who would always stock through them. Then mass retailers got into the business of selling software and more and more of it went online - and Egghead went out of business. I see the same playing out over the coming years with Diamond and their cohorts.

[Juisarian]

Stop buying Marvel, DC

But what if I enjoy reading their product? I'm not buying their stuff in order to spite indy comics or anything. It's not like making a donation to stamp out landmines, it's for my own entertainment.

and stop buying through stores that stock through Diamond.

Comic shops?

Order online from the indies directly or through places like Amazon.com.

Well Amazon doesn't stock single issues although their GN discounts are tempting - but shipping to my undetermined, presumably extradimensional location kills that. Besides, I love my local comic shop, it's a great place to meet people and discover interesting new comics I wouldn't know about otherwise. The Internet is not substitute for real world interaction, and randomly checking every comic publishers website for new titles I might want to buy sight unseen is not as effecient as going to one location and browsing the real product on the shelves. Not that I'd know which websites to go to for my indy comics anyway - looking at the APE line-up there are about 50 indy publishers attending I've never heard of, and that doesn't even include self publishers. I'm sure publishers like the 70% gross margin increase or whatever they make on direct sales (as opposed to "direct market" sales) but there's a reason they use retail channels - to get the books out there where people will find them.

Egghead Software This is ultimately where the business is going. I saw the same things happening in the software biz in the early 90's. Egghead Software was as bad, if not worse, than Diamond. They were arrogant and insisted people would always buy through bricks and mortar stores who would always stock through them. Then mass retailers got into the business of selling software and more and more of it went online - and Egghead went out of business.

You're comparing a retailer with a wholesaler here. DM retailers are not, by and large, chain stores, and many of them do trade exclusively online. What chains do exist are laughably small by retail standards - 5-10 locations vs 500-50000 for a "real" chain store. Comic shops are small biz boutiques dedicated to supporting their customers - us. The mass market retailers that do carry comics simply don't provide the level of service I expect, especially not when it comes to indy comics. At best you can get a good selection of manga and GNs there, but in my experience 99.9% of those GNs are Marvel or DC anyway. Also in my experience, most people still buy their software from EB shops and the like, right?

I see the same playing out over the coming years with Diamond and their cohorts.

You do mean comic shops right? Because Borders etc are so much better for the industry, the economy, my soul?

Or are you talking about Marvel and DC who's poor business decisions over the decades catapulted Diamond to their current position? (Which was then cemented by the poor decisions of Dark Horse, IDW etc who jumped on the "exclusive distributor" band wagon) Coz those guys have a lot to be afraid of, but Amazon.com and indy comic publisher direct sales are not among them. Their problems are the same as the indy publishers' and creators' problems - this whole industry is in the doldrums and new customers are simply not coming into the market but spending their entertainment money elsewhere.

Anyway, back on topic: How many issues of a (for example) Image comic have to sell before the creator(s) starts to see any money? And what royalty rates do they pay?

[Verne Andru]

You raise some good points. All I know for sure is things have changed significantly from when I started in the 70's and that change is only accelerating with time.

There is a large part of the market that is very tactile. Fans like to thumb through boxes of comics looking for that diamond in the rough, or whatever strikes their fancy. But I think it's important to keep in perspective that the "fan" side isn't the whole market - maybe, what, 25%? As pointed out earlier, they tend to be older and the only reason young people go into comic shops is because their parent drags them in. Kids would rather be glued to the internet looking at bad web-comics [sorry, but there is a ton of crap on the net] or playing a video game than read a book.

I have nothing against comic shops at all, and wish them all the success in the world. But the days of the independent comic shop and the mass distribution paradigm setup by Diamond are closing fast.

I spoke with Dave Simm over the past few weeks. He and I started out at the same time and were published in some of the same books before he started Cerebus. He pointed out that when he started self-publishing there were very few independent comic shops. Those that did exist had trouble getting comics because distribution was controlled by a group of NY [mobsters some have claimed] that had almost all retail magazine racks under their control. Cerebus grew with the growth of the independent shops and stopped around the time they peaked. I'm not saying he did this by design, just that he came into the market at a time when there was growth and went along for the ride.

We're now in a period of decline of the distribution/retail model. When I look around for the next growth opportunity I don't see it in Diamond, Marvel, DC or even the retail comic shops. I don't think they'll go away entirely, just that they will be eclipsed by a new set of players that cater better to the new market. Marvel and DC have not been able to transition their properties into the new media and Diamond isn't taking the steps it should to foster good business relations with the new players. For business to thrive it has to be a win-win-win [manufacturer-channel-customer]. But the way Diamond does it's business, it's a win-win-win when Marvel or DC are the manufacturer, but a lose-win-lose when you put the indies in the manufactures slot. They will either be forced to change, or perish. I suspect the latter.

One thing that Amazon does really well is treat all players equally. It doesn't matter how big or small you are, you get the same deal. Better yet, Amazon doesn't censure what they offer. They are very good at letting the market determine what moves or doesn't. Diamond, OTOH, decides what product they'll offer to their customers and base their decisions on what they think is right or wrong.

The past 6-ish years have been a bit of a distortion in the general ebb and flow of things. I suspect once is a level of discipline comes to play in international politics, people, ideas and commerce with start flowing smoothly again. It'll be a bumpy ride for the next year or two, but I think the worst is behind us [hope, hope] and sanity will prevail once again.

[Juisarian]

I guess when you look at it from that point of view, the future is all manga. And beyond that, digital distribution maybe.

[Verne Andru]

Manga is interesting from a number of perspectives. From a strictly business POV, there is a ton of Manga out right now because there was a huge backlog of existing inventories in Asia that publishers were able to get the rights for super-cheap. What we've been seeing is a deluge of old inventories that, to some extent, are being augmented by new materials. It will peak sometime soon I suspect.

From a creative POV, Manga breaks new ground the American publishers have been lax to pick up on. The whole "superhero" model was created as war propaganda designed to maintain the masses support in the war effort. By its nature, adhering to a "superhero" means ascribing yourself to a subordinate and passive role. Humans, by their nature, are independent and strong willed creatures that is at odds with this mindset. It works when people are placed in a perpetual state of fear, but doesn't hold up well during periods of peace. Living vicariously through others experiences has been an anomaly of Western societies during the 20th century and one whose day is setting.

Much of the Manga I've seen takes a more spiritual POV [the westernized manga stuff excepted]. It's more based on the principal of the emancipation of the individual spirit, or it has a heavy spiritual component to it usually rooted in mythology. That's the hardcore Manga that I've seen. Suffice it to say, the stories and approaches to storytelling are quite different.

What I've tried to do with my story is create a hybrid. There's a heavy esoteric component to what I'm doing and my message is that everybody is and should be their own hero.

In terms of purely digital content, I think a middle ground will develop. As I noted above, I created my project as a franchise that's being developed simultaneously for web, print, games and screen. Having worked in all areas I'm intimate with their strengths and weeknesses and designed that into the project at the outset. Web is best at immediacy so I post black and white webisodes as they are created. Print has a tactile and studious nature to it, so my books are full of colour, detail and extras that lend themselves to that environment. Film has the benefit of sound and movement that sets it apart.

Most creators will develop for one and try to shoe-horn it into the others. This is why, IMO, much of the existing comic properties translate poorly to other media like games and film. I believe the future lies in creating multi-media experiences that add value particular to the media being employed. This is where I see the future and digital distribution plays heavily into it - especially considering the cost of energy/transport are going nowhere but up making on-demand content delivery direct to your set top box more and more appealing.

The problem is that the current culture is weaned on getting everything for free online leaving the only viable digital business models based on selling circulation to advertisers or expense reduction. A large impediment to this has been the lack of a micro-transaction monetary component. This has been stifled by the governments [taxation issues], banks and credit cards stranglehold on monetary policy. At the moment it doesn't make sense to charge 25 cents for access to a web feature when the consumer is hit with a 1 to 2 dollar transaction fee. When someone is finally able to change this dynamic, the floodgates will open on a whole new era of global commerce that we can all benefit from. Except the Diamonds, Marvels and DC's that are too entrenched in their existing business models to change quickly enough.

[comicpod]

I guess when you look at it from that point of view, the future is all manga. And beyond that, digital distribution maybe.

Oh lord, so a dystopian hell? Don't get me wrong, there's some great manga out there but it's just like any other genre and medium; there's a lot of mediocrity and you have to dig for the good stuff and the really good stuff.

I don't deny the change that's occurring and the need to adapt to it but I still don't buy the doomsayers because they still can't point to any evidence besides the actual technologies used to distribute art becoming obsolete and being wiped out. E-books were supposed to replace books and the Internet is supposed to replace everything. Heard it many times and it still hasn't panned out.

And superheroes and supervillains have been around for thousands of years. It's usually referred to as Greek, Roman, Norse, or other mythology.

Also, how do explain imprints like Vertigo? That kind of screws up "the Big Two are completely evil" argument a bit doesn't it (at least on DC's end)?

[perk9600]

Also, how do explain imprints like Vertigo? That kind of screws up "the Big Two are completely evil" argument a bit doesn't it (at least on DC's end)?

Vertigo is actually relatively easy to explain and does not screw up the argument at all.

They are a DC imprint and thus can rely on DC's distribution and sales network as well as gain from the economies of scale that DC enjoys that other "indy" comic publishers don't.

I guess a decent (although not perfect) analogy is Corona beer. It is no coincidence that it is a top selling import. Why? Because they have a deal with BUD to use Bud's existing infrastructure and distribution channels making it much easier for shops to stock Corona. Other Mexican beers may be much better than Corona. But you don't know about them and/or can't get them but you can get Corona. Veritigo is a not so much the "You can't get the other comics" because you can through Diamond and more on the "you don't know about the other comics" type of situation.

[perk9600]

Vertigo is actually relatively easy to explain and does not screw up the argument at all.

They are a DC imprint and thus can rely on DC's distribution and sales network as well as gain from the economies of scale that DC enjoys that other "indy" comic publishers don't.

I guess a decent (although not perfect) analogy is Corona beer. It is no coincidence that it is a top selling import. Why? Because they have a deal with BUD to use Bud's existing infrastructure and distribution channels making it much easier for shops to stock Corona. Other Mexican beers may be much better than Corona. But you don't know about them and/or can't get them but you can get Corona. Veritigo is a not so much the "You can't get the other comics" because you can through Diamond and more on the "you don't know about the other comics" type of situation.

For the record I don't think Marvel or DC are evil.

[Verne Andru]

Oh lord, so a dystopian hell? Don't get me wrong, there's some great manga out there but it's just like any other genre and medium; there's a lot of mediocrity and you have to dig for the good stuff and the really good stuff.

I don't deny the change that's occurring and the need to adapt to it but I still don't buy the doomsayers because they still can't point to any evidence besides the actual technologies used to distribute art becoming obsolete and being wiped out. E-books were supposed to replace books and the Internet is supposed to replace everything. Heard it many times and it still hasn't panned out.

And superheroes and supervillains have been around for thousands of years. It's usually referred to as Greek, Roman, Norse, or other mythology.

Also, how do explain imprints like Vertigo? That kind of screws up "the Big Two are completely evil" argument a bit doesn't it (at least on DC's end)?

Yeah, I'm not sure anyone said the big two [three including Diamond] are even slightly "evil," just that they are a bit disingenuous about what they are really about. And I would argue that "fandom" at large must assume some responsibility for things getting to where they are. I always hear the argument "I can't stop buying Marvel/DC cause I like their product" on the one hand, then the "why can't indies get a fair shake" on the other. If you're in the business of publishing small press [indies] Marvel, DC and Diamond are your competition. In no other industry sector have I seen manufacturers [indies] so willing to support their competition by continuing to purchase their product. But then, in no other industry sector have I seen a distributor rise to the position of holding a monopoly without the government getting involved to either regulate their business practices or bust them up as we've seen happen with AT&T and Microsoft. The comics business is just plain weird and that will be its ultimate undoing.

As far as superheros having a basis in "mythology." I believe the two situations are distinguishable. With respect to Greek, Sumerian, Roman "myths" it was widely understood by those peoples that those stories were, in fact, their actual histories. They were stories passed down through the ages that depicted "real" people and events - no doubt succumbing to the vicissitudes of storytelling along the way. Superman, Captain America, Batman, et. all, are complete works of fiction. They are fabrications that are hold no historical significance. They are an avenue of fictional escapism pure and simple

As far as technologies like ebooks replacing traditional printed books, I submit your position is somewhat myopic. If you redefine the problem to a higher level of abstraction, you'll come to see the situation somewhat differently. Your argument is based on replacing like for like - one type of "book" with another. I tend look at the need[s] the "thing" is fulfilling in the market and try to see where those needs are or may be met based on market demographics/dynamics. If we, for sake of argument, define the "need" as an avenue of fictional escapism [met by past technologies including printed books, broadcast films, etc.], then I would argue that need is being met by the new consumer but by a completely different set of enabling devices/technologies. As I've already noted, kids today are immersed in interactive computer games that fulfill their need for fiction, escape and storytelling, but does it in an immersing environment rich in a multimedia experience. They have no time or interest in reading comic books and think characters like Spiderman, Superman, etc. are lame. Change has occurred, and continues. I would argue the evidence is staring you square in the face - you're just wearing blinders that stop you from seeing outside the box that defines your current frame of reference.