TONY BEDARD ON SUPERGIRL AND THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES

[MattBrady]

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Legion/SGLSH_Cv31_solicit.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Legion/SGLSH_Cv31_solicit_t.jpg" border="0" align="right"></a><i>by Vaneta Rogers</i>

Among the announcements coming out off WWLA this weekend was the news that Mark Waid is leaving the <b>Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes</b> title along with artist Barry Kitson. Newly signed DC exclusive writer Tony Bedard, who was also recently named as one of the writers behind the upcoming weekly series Countdown, will take over as the writer of <b>Legion</b> for six issues beginning with June's issue #31.

After writing <b>Exiles</b> for the last few years for Marvel, Tony Bedard is no stranger to writing time-hopping teams who want to save the universe. Bedard also has experience with this team in particular, having co-written several issues of Legion last year with Waid as the series further defined Supergirl's presence in the future.

As DC's upcoming event <b>World War III</b> promises to further explain Supergirl's role in the team -- and other <b>Legion</b>-related hints and characters keep popping up in various DC titles and teasers -- the series is the center of a lot of buzz.

We talked to Bedard about all the attention on the <b>Legion</b>, what he's hoping to bring to the title, and why he won't share spoilers about <b>52</b> and <b>Countdown</b> -- despite our best efforts to squeeze them out of him.

<b>Newsarama</b>: How did you end up working on <b>Legion of Super-Heroes</b>?

<b>Tony Bedard</b>: I was going about my business, baling hay at my Uncle Jonathan's farm, when a bubble-shaped craft sort of shimmered out of thin air, and these youngsters came out and told me I'd inspired them to form a super-hero club 1,000 years from now. Then my Aunt Martha walked up and opened her mouth, but the sound of a telephone ringing came out...and that's when I woke up and answered my phone. Editor Mike Marts was on the end, chastising me for dreaming about comic books instead of Scarlett Johansson. I tried to explain I prefer Naomi Watts but he cut me off and ordered me to write six issues of <b>Legion of Super-Heroes</b>. When they come out, he plans to pop some corn and laugh like a modern-day Nero as the internet tears me to pieces.

<B>NRAMA</B>: You've probably already started an internet argument over Naomi vs. Scarlett, you know. Seriously though, did this offer spin out of your recent co-writing stint with Mark Waid?

<B>TB</B>: Yeah, this was probably Mark Waid's long-term plan when he volunteered me to help on those fill-in issues. Like Idi Amin grooming a body-double to bear the brunt of an assassination attempt, Mark sensed that ol' internet turning on him and he casually said to me, "Tony, bubby," (he talks like that since he moved to Hollywood) "come here and write this comic book for a minute while I go fix myself a caviar-and-truffle sandwich." I never saw Mark again, but these people with torches and pitchforks are closing in...

<B>NRAMA</B>: Curses, Mark Waid! So how long are you on the series?

<B>TB</B>: I'm on for six issues, and I am absolutely stoked!

<B>NRAMA</B>: Sounds like you're a Legion fan.

<B>TB</B>: Legion was always one of my dream assignments (along with Aquaman, Green Lantern, Iron Man and Captain America). I've always loved the high concept of the Legion -- the round table of the 31st Century -- the idea that heroism is timeless, and the sheer multitude of great characters. Mon-El was always one of my all-time faves (loved his hair, those weird gold disc things holding on his cape, and the puffy sleeves). Also loved Timber Wolf, Brainiac 5, Bouncing Boy, Ultra Boy.

<B>NRAMA</B>: What was your first exposure to the Legion?

<B>TB</B>: My first Legion issue was a Paul Levitz tale in which a futuristic soldier from the mid-2000s was reanimated and went around shooting invisible weapons. He'd just hold his hands like there was a laser rifle in them, and the laser beams would come out! It just sort of freaked me out and captured my imagination for years. Later, I picked up <b>The Great Darkness</b> saga, got sucked in, and kept reading through the Giffen run. I've loved the Legion ever since.

<B>NRAMA</B>: You said the high concept of the Legion is that "heroism is timeless." Is that the core of the Legion as you see it -- that youthful desire to save the world -- or is it about being a teenager and defying authority?

<B>TB</B>: One thing that always struck a chord with me is the idea that the super-heroic ideal as it is practiced today will reverberate a thousand years from now. That young people ten centuries hence would be inspired by the heroes of today is truly cool. That was the original idea when the Legionnaires first informed Superboy that they'd founded the Legion based on his example. I think it's a great twist that Waid threw in reimagining this Legion movement as a response to the complacency and malaise that has seized humanity in the far-flung future. It's a cool thought that teenaged rebellion might one day be the force that saves humankind. I think both concepts work well together: young people disgusted by their elders (and what teenagers aren't?) with a quixotic penchant for dressing up like costumed heroes of a bygone age and reintroducing heroism to an Earth that desperately needs some heroes.

<B>NRAMA</B>: Who are your favorite characters in the Waid run so far?

<B>TB</B>: Probably Brainiac 5. I love his impatient, imperious attitude coupled with a genuine interest in the greater good ... no matter who he has to use or step on to achieve that good. I also think Mark has succeeded in making Cosmic Boy more interesting and bad-ass than he's ever been in Legion history.

<B>NRAMA</B>: So does that mean we'll see more of Brainiac 5 in your issues?

<B>TB</B>: I have some plans for Brainy in my storyline, but I'm actually more interested in focusing on a few relatively neglected Legionnaires. With a cast this big, you have to keep the spotlight moving around, y'know.

<B>NRAMA</B>: As you take over the series, is it in the process of changing? With Supergirl having shown up in Legion after <b>Infinite Crisis</b>, the reveal on why she's there taking place in Week 50 of <b>52</b>, Issue #30 teasing a "turning point" for the Legion, and a possible Star Boy of Legion fame showing up in Justice Society, there seems to be some exciting Legion buzz happening here ...

<B>TB</B>: I'm not giving the series a make-over. It doesn't need one. I'm just doing some character-focused tales in the wake of some very big, earth-shaking conflicts. And if you see a resurgence of the Legion in other books, I attribute that to the great job Mark and Barry (and Wacker and Marts) have done on the <b>Legion</b> relaunch. It's a mainstay of the DCU once again.

<B>NRAMA</B>: So the book itself isn't changing focus when you take over?

<B>TB</B>: The only change is to shift from the global saga of the Dominator War to a few stories focusing on small groups of Legionnaires on specific missions.

<B>NRAMA</B>: Such as?

<B>TB</B>: Shrinking Violet, Star Boy, Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad and Sun Boy will be among those who get some serious stage time. We'll also see a few familiar faces that haven't shown up in a while.

<B>NRAMA</B>: So will the ending of <b>52</b> even affect the Legion?

<B>TB</B>: Nice try! I'm not giving away anything about 52 before it happens! If I told you how Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew go insane and exterminate every human in the 31st Century, then cannibalize the corpses, Marts and Didio would...wait a minute, there's a sound at the door.
Someone's coming in! What? No, I didn't tell her anything. I swear! Dan, no, please, I would never --

ARRRGHHH!!!

<B>NRAMA</B>: OK, OK. Point taken. Let's just talk about your story. What can Legion fans expect with issue #31 and beyond?

<B>TB</B>: Following the grand finale of the Dominator War (you won't believe how that one turns out), we will deal with the aftermath of the election of a new Legion Leader and the fact that we have competing super-groups with the Legion and the Wanderers (led by Lightning Lad's brother, Mekt Ranzz). Finally, there's the whole matter of Supergirl's place in the 31st Century and how can she be in the present and the future at the same time? But all of it will revolve around a major change in the Legion brought about by the explosive finale of the current Dominator storyline.

<B>NRAMA</B>: Ah ha! "Major change!" Now we're getting somewhere. OK, then, how about one more loaded question. As one of the writers on the new weekly series Countdown, can you tell us if <b>Legion</b> will tie in to <b>Countdown</b> at all?

<B>TB</B>: <b>Countdown</b> does have a Legion connection to it, but my <b>Legion</b> storyline won't tie into <b>Countdown</b>. How's that for cryptic?

<B>NRAMA</B>: [laughs] OK, Tony, your excitement is contagious. Is that what you're hoping to bring to the Legion? A little fun and excitement?

<B>TB</B>: If I bring a tenth of the wonder and excitement that Legion brought to me when I was nine years old, that'll be enough. Beyond that. I just want to give some attention to a few underexposed characters, and celebrate why we love the Legion. It's such a vast, fun universe, and a great, inexhaustible cast of characters.

<B>NRAMA</B>: Any final words to tell Legion fans about what you're going to be doing with the series?

<B>TB</B>: Timber Wolf, Shrinking Violet and Shadow Lass, three of the Legion's fiercest fighters, run into one badass killing machine that will shock and delight you. Seriously, it's the return of an old favorite that you're going to love...and it is brutal! Plus, you'll see a fate for the Wanderers' ruthless leader, Mekt Ranzz, that no one sees coming! But mostly you'll get a lot of small, personal, funny, scary, sexy, memorable moments between Legionnaires to remind you why Legion of Super-Heroes is such an enduring fan favorite.

[neodragzero]

Well, this pretty much guarantees that I will give up on Legion after Waid is gone...

[Titan Slade]

Awesome! Thank God that DC replaced boring Mark Waid, with exciting Tony Bedard. I can finally start buying the LOS again.:) :cool:

[Jason Seaver]

Sounds pretty good, and I'm glad that DC and Marvel have both had the sense to put Bedard on books where he can do gigantic, world-shattering stories with impunity after seeing how much Negation rocked. Here's hoping he gets more than six issues to do so.

I'm also glad that it doesn't sound like there's going to be a rollback here. I have to admit, I've been mroe than a little worried about that.

[Kevin T. Brown]

NRAMA: What was your first exposure to the Legion?

TB: My first Legion issue was a Paul Levitz tale in which a futuristic soldier from the mid-2000s was reanimated and went around shooting invisible weapons. He'd just hold his hands like there was a laser rifle in them, and the laser beams would come out! It just sort of freaked me out and captured my imagination for years. Later, I picked up The Great Darkness saga, got sucked in, and kept reading through the Giffen run. I've loved the Legion ever since.


Great issue. :) One of my faves too.....

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/83644612238.210.GIF

[garion]

bah. it's for only 6 issues.

if he writes like JLA's writer, nothing will be done in 6 issues.

[hondo]

Well, this pretty much guarantees I'll be staying right here with Tony and the Legion ! I'm excited. I've liked the current run but am glad to see a new creative team because of all the negatives the boards have thrown at Waid. This book should be selling more copies and hopefully be strong enough to warrant the return of either Legionnaires or L.E.G.I.O.N,, two of my previous fav titles.

Go Tony !

BTW, who's doing the art ?

[BKole]

Well, this pretty much guarantees that I will give up on Legion after Waid is gone...

Well, this pretty much guarantees that i will pick up Legion after Waid is gone...And thus the balance is resorted.

A mate of mine and I were discussing that Legions got the short end of the stick over the last few years, particularly considering the relaunches and revamps which he considers needless. I don't know, i don't read Legion, but the few issues i picked up of this i wasn't exactly hooked.

I like Sci-Fi dramas but...I'm wondering if this has the pull to keep me. I hope so. I liked Bedard

[Crusader K]

Anyone have any idea who the artist is going to be? Did I miss this? Whoever it is can the costumes PLEASE be re-done? They're boring, generic and unimaginitive. Sorry Barry. Usually I like your work, but the Legion outfits were . . .ughh....

I mean . . .why a cape on Element Lad or Saturn Girl? Why clouds on Dream Girl?? Why does Colossal Boy . .sorry, Micro Lad always constipated?? Arrows on Light Lass?? Geometic shapes instead of symbols??

Help! Surely, there's got to be a 31st century fashion police??

[Clem]

He's gonna do the soldier with the invisible guns again isn't he...

[JoeK32880]

Oh man, I hope he stays on for years. He's just about the perfect man to write this book.

[Aaron]

This is really frustrating.

I loved Bedard's work on Negation, and he'd be an EXCELLENT replacement for Waid...

However...

By stating it's "just for six months" that pretty much telegraphs that it's six months of spinning the wheels. I understand that Bedard isn't going to trash Waid, but by saying there's nothing wrong with the book that needs fixing doesn't endear him to me. This book has TONS that needs to be fixed. The only thing it's had going for it has been Kitson.

And, isn't it sad that the excitement that's being generated about the LSH is all about the appearances the characters are making OUTSIDE of their OWN BOOK? The glimpses we've seen of LSH characters in JSA weren't even from this version of the title, and the animated version is more old-school in concept. What message does this send? The "Eat It Grandpa" LSH is a failure. It's time to refocus and get these characters back to a place where they can be compelling, interesting characters again.

Does that mean another reboot? Or, as many have suggested, a "deboot" back to the Levitz and/or Giffen LSH? Not necessarily.

But giving a writer a six month assignment these days translates into "extended fill-in designed to fit a TPB."

Basically, this tells me that nothing at all of significance is going to happen in the LSH's own book and that I should continue to read JSA to find out more about the intriguing presence of Starman and Dawnstar.

Aaron

[KoozyK]

bedard was awesome in exiles. great, non-stop action with interesting character development. this should be a nice change of pace for a book that i was frankly growing tired of.

[Gladiator X]

Tried this "new" Legion like I have all the other reboots and finally gave up after about 20 issues.

Same problem I have with pretty much every DC book.

I liked the pre-Crisis DCU and those are the characters and Universe that I want to read about.


Maybe next time..............

[Hellblazer]

Sounds interesting !

Think Bedard will be good for the title; plus he prefers Naomi Watts ! ;)
I'll be onboard for this. :D

[astronato]

I'll be checking it out. Good luck.

I hope I like Tony Bedards Supergirl the way I liked Waids. I like the Legionaires but Supergirl really adds to the book and I don't care for her portrayal in her own title.

I'd love to see Superboy join the book too. DC settle that suit please! ;)

Just please keep the letters and roll call pages as they are pretty nifty and add lots of flavor to the book.

[Zeitgeist]

Why is Supergirl even in this comic she is a 3rd tier character, and the only point of having her take over the legion book seems to be to show everybody how cool and hip she is, there are more than enough characters for a writer to juggle without adding another one who is going to take up most of the pages

[garion]

This is really frustrating.

I loved Bedard's work on Negation, and he'd be an EXCELLENT replacement for Waid...

However...

By stating it's "just for six months" that pretty much telegraphs that it's six months of spinning the wheels. I understand that Bedard isn't going to trash Waid, but by saying there's nothing wrong with the book that needs fixing doesn't endear him to me. This book has TONS that needs to be fixed. The only thing it's had going for it has been Kitson.

And, isn't it sad that the excitement that's being generated about the LSH is all about the appearances the characters are making OUTSIDE of their OWN BOOK? The glimpses we've seen of LSH characters in JSA weren't even from this version of the title, and the animated version is more old-school in concept. What message does this send? The "Eat It Grandpa" LSH is a failure. It's time to refocus and get these characters back to a place where they can be compelling, interesting characters again.

Does that mean another reboot? Or, as many have suggested, a "deboot" back to the Levitz and/or Giffen LSH? Not necessarily.

But giving a writer a six month assignment these days translates into "extended fill-in designed to fit a TPB."

Basically, this tells me that nothing at all of significance is going to happen in the LSH's own book and that I should continue to read JSA to find out more about the intriguing presence of Starman and Dawnstar.

Aaron
QTF.

Thanks for saving me the typing. :)

[SpyGuy]

Bedard's a great writer and I certainly have hopes for him, but I can't see a six-issue stint fixing this snoozer of a series. Mark Waid made a serious mistake by having characters who are rebelling against a boring, lifeless status quo be equally boring and lifeless themselves.

[SHIM'TAR]

This version of The Legion is so boring. I'm only collecting because of the Supergirl '52' conection. I'll be dropping it as soon as it's resolved

[Dragavon]

Well, this pretty much guarantees that I will give up on Legion after Waid is gone...

Yeah, I'm dropping the book with Waid's last issue. I enjoyed the reboot (the first time I ever picked up Legion) but there are too many good writers out there for me to spend money on a (IMHO) mediocre one.

[Kolimar]

Interesting choice of creator.

[0ntir]

I think I'm going to give it a shot, to see what he does with it, but I'm still hoping that his issues are marking time, until the next writer takes over, and completely revamps this series, because it sorely needs it!

[Matthew E]

I'm encouraged. I don't want to look past Mark Waid's last few issues, which I'm looking forward to, but I'm very optimistic about what Bedard can do with the Legion.

[0ntir]

Bedard's a great writer and I certainly have hopes for him, but I can't see a six-issue stint fixing this snoozer of a series. Mark Waid made a serious mistake by having characters who are rebelling against a boring, lifeless status quo be equally boring and lifeless themselves.

True, this Legion is only interesting, when seen by the unspeakabe dullards in their dreadfully boring worlds!

It's too bad that the core value of heroism, which Bedard talked about, is so blatantly missing in the W/K Legion.

Of course, the other factor is the art. Who IS the artist?

I can't abide an ugly book!

[Nightfly]

Oh man, I hope he stays on for years. He's just about the perfect man to write this book.
Agreed.

Just read Retro-Rocket this morning :) Loved It!! http://www.t2owls.net/yes.gif

[Speedball93]

Depending on the artist, I may give this a chance again. I tried the first 8 issues and couldn't get into it.

[EmeraldGuy32]

Well, this pretty much guarantees that I will give up on Legion after Waid is gone...
it's only for six issues man.

[Binker]

Okay, I have not gotten LoSH, nor Supergirl/LoSH, at all. I tried, I wanted to, when OYL started. Yet, no-go.

So if I wanted to, and its starting to hit my brain again on the thought to "get it", is #31 what to start with and not worry about the previous issues?

[Mycroft]

I quite loved Waid's run. His ideas about Projectra, Shrinking Violet, Mekt Ranzz, ... were good. The 2nd year was less entertaining, but worked nonetheless.

I'm looking forward Bedard six issues, because I enjoyed his work on Negation. I don't care about major changes, I'm just looking for good stories.

[Mr. Kayak]

I'm not giving the series a make-over. It doesn't need one.
i don't think so, tony...

please, DC, undo all waid's crappy legion... :(

[deadjacket]

This is really frustrating.

I loved Bedard's work on Negation, and he'd be an EXCELLENT replacement for Waid...

However...

By stating it's "just for six months" that pretty much telegraphs that it's six months of spinning the wheels.....

I seem to remember Geoff Johns flash run was originally going to be "just 6 issues" (the wonderland story)

how did that end up? :)

[Killer Frost]

I'm jazzed by Tony's enthusiasm and his ideas for the book. Tony, don't let the sour pusses get you down. There are thousands more Legion fans who are rooting for you. Best of luck!

Only another hour till the solicitations and we'll know who the artist is too.

[Titan Slade]

please, DC, undo all waid's crappy legion... :(


Quoted for the truth.:cool:

[Matthew E]

i don't think so, tony...

please, DC, undo all waid's crappy legion... :(

I liked it. Even if I didn't, I'm sick of DC 'undoing' things. I don't mind if Bedard, or somebody else, changes Waid's Legion, as long as it's done well, but no more 'undoing'.

[TonyBedard]

Folks, I've got my storyline mapped out, and it's not a fill-in. Consequential things happen, we get some quality time with a few of these characters, and I honestly feel that the story is repectful not just to the current continuity, but to previous Legion incarnations as well.

That said, some of you will probably hate it because LEGION is that kind of book. It's had several great incarnations that are so out of synch with each other that LEGION fans are bound to have their own favorite version...and another they just can't stand.

In any case, I'm gonna have fun, and I hope you do, too. If DC likes what I do and they ever want me to do more, I'll be only too happy to say yes. If not, rest assured the next guy to come along will be bigger and better.

Either way, thanks for your responses -- even the negative ones!

Tony B

[Brenticles]

I have really liked Waid's run on Legion it has been a lot of fun and some great new twists have been put in place. It sounds to me like Bedard has a lot of enthusiasm for the series so I think it will stay fun.

[Ace]

Given that Tony says this is a dream project, I figure that DC either has a really big name coming on OR Tony's going to be a damn good choice to continue on.

And he's a damn good choice to begin with. Though I'd rather see him on L.E.G.I.O.N.

Now bring back Blok.

[Meteoro7]

This is real bad news. While Bedard was great in Negation, his Exiles stuff was horrible.

I don't thnk he will be able to keep up with Mark Waid and that's such a shame :(

[Killer Frost]

Just one request, Tony. Please give Phantom Girl more screen time. It's almost like she's been hiding inside a wall for three years. :)

[vbartilucci]

I agree with everyone else so far - six months is not enough time to do anything but a TPB-sized fill-in story.

I sense we may be seeing a Legion reboot after that, which might explain the quasi-answer to the Countdown connection question.

Now what I hope is that Bedard will be the one doing said reboot, and this story is a tryout for him.

At the very least, I hope he actually HAS a long-term plan for the legion, and he has it ready to go should he get the green light, or at least have something to pass on to the next writer.

I hopped back on board Legion with OYL, and went back and caught up with this latest incarnation. While the whole "teenage rebel superheroes" concept doesn't excite me, the issues post OYL haven't been too bad. If you pretend that it's the old-school legion that everyone likes, they're quite fine stories.

(Of course, "quite fine" and "not too bad" are not descriptions I expect to use for Mark Waid Legion stories. That alone is a big statement)

The thing more than anything else that drives me mad is the sheer number of times the Legion has been rebooted. Ever since Byrne retconned Superboy out of existence, DC has been scrambling to "explain" the Legion's history, and each time it's gotten more and more confusing, and each incarnation has gotten further and further from the core of the characters.

Every time they reboot, they are running the risk of turning off the current audience in the hope of attracting anew (larger) audience. As far as I know, that hasn't been doing too well so far.

I can understand having to give the odd catch-up for a book with the history of the Legion, or you'll never give the new readers a chance to jump on. But a jumping-on point doesn't HAVE to be a reboot. What if you made the Annual the catch-up/jump-on point? A big long story with lots of history in it, give everyone a showcase to interest people, and start a new story the following month?

That'd be a good idea across the line really. Much like the Action annual this year was a sort of preview of coming attractions.

TB: Timber Wolf, Shrinking Violet and Shadow Lass, three of the Legion's fiercest fighters, run into one badass killing machine that will shock and delight you. Seriously, it's the return of an old favorite that you're going to love...and it is brutal!

My first knee-jerk thought was, "Oh good lord, he's making them fight Lobo..."

Me, I want Grimbor the Chainsman and Charma back.

[garion]

Folks, I've got my storyline mapped out, and it's not a fill-in. Consequential things happen, we get some quality time with a few of these characters, and I honestly feel that the story is repectful not just to the current continuity, but to previous Legion incarnations as well.

That said, some of you will probably hate it because LEGION is that kind of book. It's had several great incarnations that are so out of synch with each other that LEGION fans are bound to have their own favorite version...and another they just can't stand.

In any case, I'm gonna have fun, and I hope you do, too. If DC likes what I do and they ever want me to do more, I'll be only too happy to say yes. If not, rest assured the next guy to come along will be bigger and better.

Either way, thanks for your responses -- even the negative ones!

Tony B
Six issues doesn't seem like a lot to get all sorts of plots and subplots in but I guess it depends on the writer. I just wished they offered you a year at least.

Hopefully, you'll make Mysa have white hair again and be dream girl's sister. And bring back Blok. And Invisible Kid2. And make Chameleon Boy a boy again. And wait... 6 months only. Drat.

[lesterj]

Tony, as a LSH fan of 30+ years, I'm with you, and so is my money.

I'm also down with Naomi Watts.

[Aaron]

I seem to remember Geoff Johns flash run was originally going to be "just 6 issues" (the wonderland story)

how did that end up? :)

Well, honestly, it ended up as a 6 month, dull-as-dishwater fill-in story followed by a very good run. My point remains, that first 6 month arc was spinning the wheels. Even if Bedard's run is extended, we're still likely dealing with 6 months of lethargy until the "good stuff" gets started.

Again, this is just my guess based on the way these things tend to go. I could be completely wrong (and hope that I am.) But this interview doesn't lead me to believe so.

Aaron

[Titan Slade]

I don't thnk he will be able to keep up with Mark Waid and that's such a shame :(

You do know you are wrong about this, right? Even Chuck Austen and Rob Liefeld can write circles around Waid. Waid is the most boring writer in comics today.

[Ace]

Just one request, Tony. Please give Phantom Girl more screen time. It's almost like she's been hiding inside a wall for three years. :)

I think Star Boy's been hiding in that wall with her.

I guess his personality's a bit too much like Waid's Invisible Kid that having the two together might make them overlap.

[astronato]

If we are taking votes...more Timber Wolf please!

[gwangung]

Six issues doesn't seem like a lot to get all sorts of plots and subplots in but I guess it depends on the writer. I just wished they offered you a year at least.

Heh.

Now decompression has set into fans....

[usasix]

if you're planning on giving up this book cuz bedard is on, do yourself a favor and pick up an issue of negation at your comic book store. you can probably find them in the discount box. even better pick the tpb...if you don't think his writing is for a future team book i'd be 100% shocked.

i've been reading comics for 15 years and negation is EASILY my favorite series of all time. never a dull moment, never a filler issue, just a non-stop space opera. give Tony B. a chance, he has been underrated and underappreciated for years. hopefully that'll end soon w/his new DC exclusive.

good luck tony.

[theodoros2]

I AM VERY HAPPY WITH TONY BEDARD ON "SUPERGIRL AND THE LEGION OS SUPER-HEROES"!!!

But only 6 issues!!????! I hope he can stay more.

THE Tony from Negation?? The ULTIMATE Tony!!??!?!!!???!

Tony, send me the end of Negation War. I won't tell it to anyone!!!

[PHEEL]

QUOTE=vbartilucci]

"The thing more than anything else that drives me mad is the sheer number of times the Legion has been rebooted. Ever since Byrne retconned Superboy out of existence, DC has been scrambling to "explain" the Legion's history, and each time it's gotten more and more confusing, and each incarnation has gotten further and further from the core of the characters."

Well said Vbartilucci... I cannot agree with you more.

[Mark Cardwell]

Shrinking Violet? Doesn't he mean Atom Girl?

[IvCNuB4]

Arrows on Light Lass?? Geometic shapes instead of symbols??


The arrows on Light Lass' outfit point up, symbolizing weightlessness. The geometric shapes on MicroLad and Chameleon represent size-changing and shape-shifting, respectively.

At first I thought Bedard didn't understand that Supergirl isn't really in two places at once. It's time-travel, right ? Unless one of the Supergirl's isn't the real deal. Hmmmm.

That cover for #31 doesn't show Mon-El or Dream Boy (boo), but does show SunBoy (yay).

[Aaron]

Tony, send me the end of Negation War. I won't tell it to anyone!!!

Heck yeah. My heart yearns for closure. :(

[velocity119]

Heh.

Now decompression has set into fans....

you took the words out of my mouth. Six issues is HALF A YEAR. That is PLENTY of time to tell a lot of good stories. One of the biggest criticisms of Waid is that his first story took such a long time to play out - why are posters here complaining about 6 issues?! I would love to see more done-in-ones or two-parters, rather than padded 6 part or 12 part stories. I have faith that Bedard can do well with smaller stories focused on a handful of characters - like Levitz/Giffen used to do back in the day! Not EVERY story needs to feature the entire team. The Waid/Stern/McCraw teams rarely understood that as well.

bottom line for me - 6 issues is a lot to work with, and plenty of time to see some good stories. if it's really good, i hope we see Bedard on for an open-ended run. if not, i hope we get a great new writer. i just don't want to see the title cancelled.

[Aaron]

you took the words out of my mouth. Six issues is HALF A YEAR. That is PLENTY of time to tell a lot of good stories. One of the biggest criticisms of Waid is that his first story took such a long time to play out - why are posters here complaining about 6 issues?! I would love to see more done-in-ones or two-parters, rather than padded 6 part or 12 part stories. I have faith that Bedard can do well with smaller stories focused on a handful of characters - like Levitz/Giffen used to do back in the day! Not EVERY story needs to feature the entire team. The Waid/Stern/McCraw teams rarely understood that as well.

bottom line for me - 6 issues is a lot to work with, and plenty of time to see some good stories. if it's really good, i hope we see Bedard on for an open-ended run. if not, i hope we get a great new writer. i just don't want to see the title cancelled.

Yes, six issues IS a long time and SHOULD be plenty of time for layered stories.

The reality of the situation is, though, that this is rarely done anymore. It's not a reflection of the writers, usually. It's a direction that comes from up top.

So, to answer your question, why are people complaining about six issues... we are concerned because six issues in 2007 is about equal to 1.5 issues in 1982. :-) I agree it SHOULDN'T be that way, and wish it wasn't, but... well... tell it to DC.

Aaron

[Aaron]

Duplicate post

[Aaron]

Duplicate post

[Johnny Smith]

;) Originally Posted by Aaron
This is really frustrating.

I loved Bedard's work on Negation, and he'd be an EXCELLENT replacement for Waid...

However...

By stating it's "just for six months" that pretty much telegraphs that it's six months of spinning the wheels.....
I seem to remember Geoff Johns flash run was originally going to be "just 6 issues" (the wonderland story)

how did that end up? :)

And more recently, Marv Wolfman was only going to do four issues of Nightwing ;)

[Johnny Smith]

Kevin Sharpe on art, according to the June Solicits :D

[SmileOnADog]

I have followed the Legion more than I have any other comics property besides Spider-Man. Through four incarnations and various creators, some good and some bad. The current version is not my favorite, especially since I had just gotten used to "M'Onel" and not my all-time favorite Mon-El. With only six issues to write I doubt anything major will occur. Besides maybe tradepaperback fodder. I am hopefull though.

[Redmond]

<B>TB</B>: Timber Wolf, Shrinking Violet and Shadow Lass, three of the Legion's fiercest fighters, run into one badass killing machine that will shock and delight you.

Great, the only book that stood apart. Glad to know they'll "fix" it with more Wolverine. This is why the industry's falling. All books are the same crap. You guys can't even see it.

[Martin Gray]

This is really frustrating.

I loved Bedard's work on Negation, and he'd be an EXCELLENT replacement for Waid...

However...

By stating it's "just for six months" that pretty much telegraphs that it's six months of spinning the wheels. I understand that Bedard isn't going to trash Waid, but by saying there's nothing wrong with the book that needs fixing doesn't endear him to me. This book has TONS that needs to be fixed.

Aaron

That could be diplomacy - even if he doesn't like every aspect of Mark Waid's LSH, what's the point of slagging it of in public? He can tweak as he goes.

I like Tony Bedard as a writer, and he seems a good chap, so give him a chance. Who knows what he might accomplish in six issues, at least we know he's not going to give us a long-drawn out saga. Shorter tales focusing on fewer characters have given us some great tales in the past, who says they can't again.

And if the heavily rumoured replacement writer doesn't show up, well, Tony's in a good position to stay on and unleash his wildest Legion plans on us.

[hondo]

Kevin Sharpe. I don't recognize the name, but doing a quick search shows he's done Army of Darkness, G.I. Joe, Xtreme X-Men, Mystic from CrossGen, Season of the Witch, and some other titles I've never read, but he looks promising.

Yes, I was going to point out that just because Tony's starting with 6 issues, that doesn't necessarily mean he won't stay on longer.

I think the return of the multiverse will show how the different incarnations of the Legion exist in different planes, therefore, everyone can unclench and enjoy their fav version. I haven't hated this current one, but I liked what DnA were doing and didn't think it needed a reboot.

Levitz & Giffen were great but v4 with Giffen and the Bierbaums was the best. I doubt if we'll ever see it again, though.

[Brenticles]

Legion was selling low 20Ks (23,000 or so) when it was re-booted and now Supergirl & LoSH is selling in the low 30Ks (32,000 or so) Sounds to me like the re-boot is more of a success than some people would like to admit.

Edit: I just looked up the numbers. So far the lowest sales on the current run have been 31,649 on issue #15. The highest sales of the previous series, Legion were 27,945 on issue #25. My data only goes back to January of 2003.

[motteditor]

NRAMA: You've probably already started an internet argument over Naomi vs. Scarlett, you know. Seriously though, did this offer spin out of your recent co-writing stint with Mark Waid?

Because of the formating of this ... I read it as an argument over Waid vs. Scarlett. And I was like not really much of an argument there, is there? No offense, Mark.

TB: Probably Brainiac 5. I love his impatient, imperious attitude coupled with a genuine interest in the greater good ... no matter who he has to use or step on to achieve that good. I also think Mark has succeeded in making Cosmic Boy more interesting and bad-ass than he's ever been in Legion history.

Hopefully this means we'll get lots of Brainy. He's probably my favorite Legionnaire too, so that'll make me happy.

TB: I have some plans for Brainy in my storyline, but I'm actually more interested in focusing on a few relatively neglected Legionnaires. With a cast this big, you have to keep the spotlight moving around, y'know.

Oh. Well, this'll teach me to read more at a time before posting. I guess neglected Legionnaires can be good too. More Waid-style Dream Girl, please.

TB: Shrinking Violet, Star Boy, Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad and Sun Boy will be among those who get some serious stage time. We'll also see a few familiar faces that haven't shown up in a while.

Well, I like Vi and I'm curious to see more about the new Star Boy. Depending on the familiar faces, that could be good (XS, Kinetix, Gates, please). Glad to see Shady also will get some time. I like this version of Shady, I think.

[SmileOnADog]

Great, the only book that stood apart. Glad to know they'll "fix" it with more Wolverine. This is why the industry's falling. All books are the same crap. You guys can't even see it.

Whuzzle?:confused:

[BillReed]

How could they cannibalize human corpses if they're the Zoo Crew? :)

[FIG]

Its not the penciling that bugs me, they are by Barry Kitson. The colors are way off need to be redone. Talk about washed out, they have so much white it blinds the eyes.

[Mr. Kayak]

That said, some of you will probably hate it because LEGION is that kind of book. It's had several great incarnations that are so out of synch with each other that LEGION fans are bound to have their own favorite version...and another they just can't stand.

i don't think that's the point.
when you cook something it's not like the recipe is carved into stone. you can add a spice, for example; sometimes you can serve the dish cold; etc... but, in the end, the recipe is still the same.
i feel that, with its legion, waid cooked a different recipe. it's a different dish. if i want an apple pie i want it to taste like apple.

[IAmLegion]

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd rather see the series canceled and the Legion layed to rest permanently than for the current crud they are trying to pass off as the Legion to continue. The characters are travesties and the writing up to this point has stunk. I can not think of a single way that the current book could be made readable, let alone actually enjoyable. If you are going to continue with the pathetic thugs that comprise the current team then you can keep it. I don't want it and I won't waste money on this sort of trash.

[Mycroft]

You do know you are wrong about this, right? Even Chuck Austen and Rob Liefeld can write circles around Waid. Waid is the most boring writer in comics today.

By boring, you mean without evisceration, decapitation, heroes turned villains, don't you ?

[AdamYJ]

I hope we see Bouncing Boy show up sometime in the Legion's future. He's my favorite in the cartoon.

[Quislet]

Why is Supergirl even in this comic she is a 3rd tier character, and the only point of having her take over the legion book seems to be to show everybody how cool and hip she is, there are more than enough characters for a writer to juggle without adding another one who is going to take up most of the pages
Supergirl a "3rd tier character"? She -- along with Wonder Woman, Lois Lane, and Batgirl -- is one of the four most recognizable female comic book characters on the planet. You can debate in what order these four would rank, but it's clear that all of them eclipse the entire pantheon of Marvel women.

And, no, she wasn't added to LSH to "show everybody how cool and hip she is". Waid explicitly added her to give the current team a tie to the mainstream DC universe, which has been an essential element of the Legion since the founders met Superboy in 1958.

[Amoebas]

Seriously, it's the return of an old favorite that you're going to love...and it is brutal!

"old fan favorite"? The book barely more than two years old. What "old fan favorite" is he talking about?

Oh wait - he's talkin about a character from a previous continuity isn't he?

Kinda makes the whole 'reboot' thing worthless don't it?

As far as the new writer - it's the Legion so I owe THEM a try. Six issues is enough to make or break imo, so having not read anything by Bedard before - my fingers are crossed.

As you can see by my avatar - Brainy is my fave comic character and will be glad to see him get any spotlight. And as far as the lesser knowns (if Tony's listening) I have to recommend Blockade Boy. Think of the thousands of adventures there could be about the boy who can turn himself into a wall!

[Quislet]

I agree with everyone else so far - six months is not enough time to do anything but a TPB-sized fill-in story.

We need a term to describe this comic book version of "the bends", also known as decompression sickness. We as a comic-buying public have gotten so used to the obscene levels of decompression in modern comics that preposterous statements like the one above are said in all seriousness.

*OF COURSE* six issues is enough time to tell a "real" story that's not a fill-in.

In the first six issues of New Teen Titans, Wolfman and Perez managed to introduce (1) three entirely new team members -- Starfire, Cyborg, and Raven; (2) Deathstroke and his soon-to-be deceased son (the first Ravager); (3) the Fearsome Five, of which only Dr. Light was a pre-existing character, and (4) Trigon. Along the way the Titans formed a team, got a headquarters, fought the Justice League, learned Raven's entire origin story, and saved the universe from total domination by a 30-feet-tall extradimensional demon.

So it's not that modern writers can't tell compelling stories in less than six issues; they simply choose not to.

[rugbyburn]

I don't know Tony's writing, but it's nice that he popped up in here to say something. I was afraid, like a previous poster, he was referring to Lobo, the most ill-conceived character ever, so I am praying that's not he badass villain coming up.

Duplicate Boy, maybe??? I don't recall if he's been in Waid's run ...

and ... someone enjoyed the Giffen/Bierbaum Legion? I thought that had been outlawed in 47 states ...

[OSLegionFan]

... someone enjoyed the Giffen/Bierbaum Legion? I thought that had been outlawed in 47 states ...

Having read it when it was originally on the stands, I have to agree that it was MUCH more enjoyable than the current dren that calls itself the LSH. I have not purchased an issue since the Titans/Legion special when they announced it was being rebooted (again).

I've looked at the recent stuff, and have been completely underwhelmed by it... it's just... boring. It's NOT the LSH... even the cartoon is closer to canon LSH than the book - how sad is that?

At least we'll have the 'toon LSH book...

[Scavenger]

The thing more than anything else that drives me mad is the sheer number of times the Legion has been rebooted. Ever since Byrne retconned Superboy out of existence, DC has been scrambling to "explain" the Legion's history, and each time it's gotten more and more confusing, and each incarnation has gotten further and further from the core of the characters.


The number of times...twice. Zero Hour and Waid Hour. That's it.

And Zero Hour gave them a new inspiration...the heroic age of the 20th Century rather than just a single character. Pretty simple there.

It was when they fired everyone and gave it to A&L to turn into Legion of Angst that things started going down hill.

I don't care for the Waid "Eat It Grandpa" version...it lacks the heroic impulse of the earlier versions. Unfortunatly, they really can't just reboot it, as it would just make the joke above true.

(I think the cartoon really nails it...modern feel, with silver age tribute).

[theodoros2]

*OF COURSE* six issues is enough time to tell a "real" story that's not a fill-in.

No. Six issues in in this era is 2-3 issues 5-25 years ago.

Nowadays you read a comicbook in 5 minutes. Five years ago you needed more than 15 minutes.

That's why his 6 issues are few.

[ender2814]

Well, this pretty much guarantees that I will give up on Legion after Waid is gone...


Well, this pretty much guarantees that i will pick up Legion after Waid is gone...And thus the balance is resorted.


Girls, girls can we please keep this discussion somewhat civil?

[God-Man]

It would be funny if in 52 Supergirl dissapeared and came back in a second, but in actuality spent months with the Legion.

[Samy Merchi]

I'll be getting my Legion fix in Action Comics (Mon-El) and JSA (Star Boy and Dawnstar).

When the actual Legion series deboots back to the REAL Legion, let me know and I'll be back with bells on.

[agostinialex]

Quote:
NRAMA: What was your first exposure to the Legion?

TB: My first Legion issue was a Paul Levitz tale in which a futuristic soldier from the mid-2000s was reanimated and went around shooting invisible weapons. He'd just hold his hands like there was a laser rifle in them, and the laser beams would come out! It just sort of freaked me out and captured my imagination for years. Later, I picked up The Great Darkness saga, got sucked in, and kept reading through the Giffen run. I've loved the Legion ever since.


Issue 210 of Superboy Starring the Legion of Super-Heroes was written by Jim Shooter. Paul Levitz started writing the Legion title closer to the end of the 200s.

[Matthew E]

... someone enjoyed the Giffen/Bierbaum Legion? I thought that had been outlawed in 47 states ...

That was my favourite era of the Legion. I like the current Legion, and I've liked others too, but the Giffen/Bierbaums era was the best.

[CMAAB]

Before I get to anything else I think I need to address this first:
Originally posted by Titan Slade

You do know you are wrong about this, right? Even Chuck Austen and Rob Liefeld can write circles around Waid. Waid is the most boring writer in comics today.


Are you high? To borrow from Dennis Miller I don't want to get off on a rant but I'd rather read from the phone book than read anything by Chuck Austen. This is the guy who in his first issue of Action Comics (consequently also the only issue of his run that I picked up) limited Superman's vocabulary to the likes of "DUDE" and "Whatever". Suddenly the man of steel is has the vocabulary of a stoner. You're right that's way better than anything Waid has ever done. Waid only wrote Fanatastic Four, Captain America and the Flash when all of those books were good but you must be right. Comparing Mark Waid's work to Chuck Austen and Rob Liefeld is like comparing ice cream to horse manure. But I digress.

It seems like a lot of people hate Mark Waid's run on Legion of Superheroes. I've actually enjoyed the book. I was ready to drop this book with Waid's last issue but with Bedard on board (loved his work on Exiles) I'm going to stick it out and see where it goes.

[Quislet]

No. Six issues in in this era is 2-3 issues 5-25 years ago.

Nowadays you read a comicbook in 5 minutes. Five years ago you needed more than 15 minutes.

That's why his 6 issues are few.
Um, do you realize we're in complete agreement? You're making the exact same point I was. Comics are currently being written with a massively *artifically* decompressed construction, also known as "writing for the trades".

There's no reason that massive story arcs shouldn't last six issues. However, the major element that many many writers routinely forget is that each individual issue must also tell a story in itself which is worthwhile. Every issue is somebody's first issue.

[AdamYJ]

Geez. Old time Legion fans are a devoted lot. Personally, the Waid run was the first time I was able to get into the Legion and I hope it goes on for a long time.

[Amoebas]

Issue 210 of Superboy Starring the Legion of Super-Heroes was written by Jim Shooter. Paul Levitz started writing the Legion title closer to the end of the 200s.True that about Shooter in Sboy #210. But a quick trip down Legion Lane and...

Sboy #225 (Superboy versus Wildfire)
Sboy #226 (1st app of Dawnstar)
Sboy #228 (death of Chemical King)
Sboy #229 (Time Trapper returns)
Sboy #230 (Bouncing Boy bounces again)
SLSH #231 (Fatal Five)
SLSH #233 (Infinite Man - one of all time favorite books)
SLSH #235 (Legion's Super-Secret)
SLSH #236 (Garth & Imra announce wedding)
All-New Collectors Edition aka That Damn Tabloid (Garth & Imra get married)
SLSH #237 (Garth & Imra leave the LSH)
SLSH #239 (Ultra Boy framed for murder)
SLSH #240 (1st Grimbor)
SLSH #241 (Earth War - 1st Shvaugn Erin & Ontir)
SLSH #242 (Earth War - Dark Circle)
SLSH #243 (Earth War - Legion of Subs!)
SLSH #244 (Earth War - Mordru)
SLSH #245 (Earth War - Mordru, Garth & Imra rejoin)
SLSH #246 (Fatal Five)
SLSH #247 (anniversery story)

...all well before "the end of the 200's" and all written by Paul Levitz.

Yeah - maybe I went overboard on this - but any excuse to relive the issues is all right by me!

[Killer Frost]

I have not purchased an issue since the Titans/Legion special when they announced it was being rebooted (again).

I've looked at the recent stuff, and have been completely underwhelmed by it... it's just... boring. It's NOT the LSH... even the cartoon is closer to canon LSH than the book - how sad is that?
I'll tell you what's really sad. People who never purchased a single copy of the regular series but can't wait to jump in and express their "opinions" of it. Is the signal to noise ratio always so bad around here?

The complaints about the Waid Legion sound like love letters compared to the fan reaction to the Giffen-Bierbaum reboot, though. THAT was a failure of monstrous proportions.

[Amoebas]

I'll tell you what's really sad. People who never purchased a single copy of the series but can't wait to jump in and express their "opinions" of it. Is the signal to noise ratio always so bad around here?If someone doesn't like a take on a certain book, they have every right to not purchase the and STILL be able to squack about it if they wish.

But that's only my opinion and (until the Avengers are the Avengers again) I'm standing by it. :D

[Samy Merchi]

Old time Legion fans are a devoted lot.You can say that. I know it's pretty fanatical, but Legion was always a very special book to me and I'm always willing to go further than for (almost) any other book to support the original Legion. I love those guys. :)

[AdamYJ]

You can say that. I know it's pretty fanatical, but Legion was always a very special book to me and I'm always willing to go further than for (almost) any other book to support the original Legion. I love those guys. :)

Okay.

They never meant much to me. I wasn't around when they were at their peak, I think. I even tried to read that "Great Darkness Saga" everyone raves about in trade form and I just . . . . couldn't dig it.

So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I do like the cartoon, though, if that helps. :D

[Aaron]

So it's not that modern writers can't tell compelling stories in less than six issues; they simply choose not to.

I disagree. Writers are being DIRECTED to stretch out their stories to three, four and six part arcs to fill a TPB. Writers who long ago demonstrated an ability to write good, solid single and two-part stories are now writing 4, 5 and 6 part arcs. They didn't just one day decide to start writing in a decompressed way.

Aaron

[tinysmiles]

This book has TONS that needs to be fixed. The only thing it's had going for it has been Kitson.


Aaron

In the 20 plus years I have been reading comic books, this current run is the first time I have ever enjoyed the LSH. Every other time I picked up the LSH titles I found them to be boring or cheesy.I have meet several other people who feel the same way.
Sorry it isn't working for you....

[Comic-Reader]

Great issue. :) One of my faves too.....

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/83644612238.210.GIF


That WAS a good issue, but not nearly one of my favorites from around that time. Also, Paul Levitz didn't write it, Jim Shooter did. Paul's first issue was #225 where Wildfire becomes Legion leader.

[TonyBedard]

I stand corrected on who wrote that old LSH issue. It was a long time ago. A looooong time.

But i always remembered the cool boots that soldier wore. Go figure.

I'm gonna stop reading this stuff now before y'all make me second-guess everything I do. :rolleyes:

[Comic-Reader]

True that about Shooter in Sboy #210. But a quick trip down Legion Lane and...

Sboy #225 (Superboy versus Wildfire)
Sboy #226 (1st app of Dawnstar)
Sboy #228 (death of Chemical King)
Sboy #229 (Time Trapper returns)
Sboy #230 (Bouncing Boy bounces again)
SLSH #231 (Fatal Five)
SLSH #233 (Infinite Man - one of all time favorite books)
SLSH #235 (Legion's Super-Secret)
SLSH #236 (Garth & Imra announce wedding)
All-New Collectors Edition aka That Damn Tabloid (Garth & Imra get married)
SLSH #237 (Garth & Imra leave the LSH)
SLSH #239 (Ultra Boy framed for murder)
SLSH #240 (1st Grimbor)
SLSH #241 (Earth War - 1st Shvaugn Erin & Ontir)
SLSH #242 (Earth War - Dark Circle)
SLSH #243 (Earth War - Legion of Subs!)
SLSH #244 (Earth War - Mordru)
SLSH #245 (Earth War - Mordru, Garth & Imra rejoin)
SLSH #246 (Fatal Five)
SLSH #247 (anniversery story)

...all well before "the end of the 200's" and all written by Paul Levitz.

Yeah - maybe I went overboard on this - but any excuse to relive the issues is all right by me!
Actually, Grimbor (& Charma) first appeared in Superboy/Legion 221, and it wasn't written by Levitz, but by Jim Shooter again.

[canugrok]

Has anyone mentioned that the "vicious IT" from the past could be...Computo?

I never understand why so many get so negative about a book wayyyyy before it comes out.
Give the first issue (in this case, a new writer) a try-or not-and if you don't like it, then that's ok too. OR, heaven forbid, you may like it. If it stinks, it'll sink eventually with no sales.

I'm a Legion fan from the beginning, read all the different incarnations, and the only one that completely blew it for me was the Legion Lost era. Hated the artwork and the story(ies). I've been on the sidelines with the current LOSH and I'm looking forward to a change.

And please stop cringing about the Silver Age stuff. If it wasn't there, we wouldn't have a Legion at all.

[outhereliste]

I think I'll drop the book.

I've never been sold on the "Eat it, grandpa" Legion; every other version of the Legion has interested me more. That said, Waid and Kitson are usually clever enough to keep me interested.

It's possible that Bedard has done great work I just haven't read. Thing is, he ruined "Exiles" for me. Plot, he can do. I think he's good at plot. But he took a book in which the characters breathed and flattened them. Oh, and he jettisoned the book's internal logic.

Eh. I heard the book got better. "World Tour" was supposed to be pretty good. But after "Earn Your Wings," I'm inclined to avoid him.

[wildcard9]

Sounds like the Legion is in good hands after Waid. I am sorry to see Waid leave, but I am glad someone else who loves the Legion is getting a chance to write it.

[Amoebas]

Actually, Grimbor (& Charma) first appeared in Superboy/Legion 221, and it wasn't written by Levitz, but by Jim Shooter again.
Dang! I originally wrote "SLSH #240 (1st Jed Rikane)" but figured that name would be too obscure so I threw in Grimbor as the villain but forgot to erase the "1st".

Nice catch (and glad to see that there are others of us who are really devoted to the Legion).

[gwangung]

I disagree. Writers are being DIRECTED to stretch out their stories to three, four and six part arcs to fill a TPB. Writers who long ago demonstrated an ability to write good, solid single and two-part stories are now writing 4, 5 and 6 part arcs. They didn't just one day decide to start writing in a decompressed way.

Aaron

Ye, and when writers DO handle a one and done story (or even a two parter), you will INEVITABLY get a fair amount of criticism from fans "It was over too fast...it should have taken another issue to wrap things up."

[little kon-el]

I think I'll drop the book.

I've never been sold on the "Eat it, grandpa" Legion; every other version of the Legion has interested me more. That said, Waid and Kitson are usually clever enough to keep me interested.

It's possible that Bedard has done great work I just haven't read. Thing is, he ruined "Exiles" for me. Plot, he can do. I think he's good at plot. But he took a book in which the characters breathed and flattened them. Oh, and he jettisoned the book's internal logic.

Eh. I heard the book got better. "World Tour" was supposed to be pretty good. But after "Earn Your Wings," I'm inclined to avoid him.

If you wanna read something good by Bedard, I'd suggest you hunt down Route 666 from Crossgen. He plays up an alternate reality 1950s supernatural horror story in an alternate reality with such fun and excitement that would make you smile.

His Route 666 is enough cache alone for me to pick up his interpretation of the Legion. Before you judge the guy, I'd suggest reading this series first.

- little kon-el

[csatterlee]

Tony is a great guy. I wish him all the best on his stint on the book!

[JoeK32880]

I knew I wasn't going to like this Legion when their first appearance has a character destroying a copy of LOSH 0. The ZH reboot is my second-favorite era behind Levitz' second run and I didn't see at all how that was necessary.

But, unlike some who are stronger than me, I've bought and read every issue. It's gone from terrible to okay. More than two years and it's improved by a small fraction. Bedard's six issues will be the best fo the series so far, guaranteed.

[Michael D.]

I HAVE TWO THINGS TO MENTION (why am I yelling?)

1. Is it possible Bedard's 6-issue stint is an experiment; if sales improve, Bedard stays...if sales flatline, we're looking at Legion Reboot #19.

2. Those of you who disliked Waid's run - what was wrong with it? Specifically. I did not follow this Legion series but I would assume a writer, and hardcore DC fanboy, like Mark Waid on a LSH book would be GOLD. What went wrong, in your opinion?

[SpaceButler]

He prefers Naomi Watts? What?!?!?

http://accel1.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/20/32/50/scarlett-johansson--esquire.jpg

Over her?!?!

Clearly Mr Bedard has some serious issues. :D

Still looking forward to the Black Canary mini though. :)

[OSLegionFan]

I'll tell you what's really sad. People who never purchased a single copy of the regular series but can't wait to jump in and express their "opinions" of it. Is the signal to noise ratio always so bad around here?

The complaints about the Waid Legion sound like love letters compared to the fan reaction to the Giffen-Bierbaum reboot, though. THAT was a failure of monstrous proportions.

I've SEEN the current stuff. My opinion was based upon it. I just refuse to put my money on the counter for something that is a shadow of what it was.

[Samy Merchi]

Those of you who disliked Waid's run - what was wrong with it?It wasn't a deboot back to 1985. :)

[OSLegionFan]

I stand corrected on who wrote that old LSH issue. It was a long time ago. A looooong time.

But i always remembered the cool boots that soldier wore. Go figure.

I'm gonna stop reading this stuff now before y'all make me second-guess everything I do. :rolleyes:

Hi Tony,

congratulation on what may be one of the more volatile assignments you might ever get.

I enjoyed your Exiles very much, and hoping for your shot at the legion to be as interesting. Nice to have a fan of the original series that professes a love for the 70's era at the helm.

Not slamming Waid here, but IMHO, he never really "got" the Legion. His stories (LSH) have just been drawn out, but not overly interesting... It's the first time I've ever thought a creator had A.D.D., and I wish him well in his future endeavours... but it's been twice now he's been on the LSH, and I'm hoping that DC has learned it's lesson by now.

There are so many easy outs to "deboot" the LSH... hoping that the JSA storyline is a nudge in that direction.

[Samy Merchi]

I was actually totally expecting OYL to be a deboot. It just made such perfect sense, to use the second Crisis to circle around back to the first Crisis, have some kind of a "time loop" or whatnot. Especially considering that Crisis 1 was almost *exactly* around the same issue numbers of the Baxter series as OYL was. It would've made *so much sense* to walk into Crisis 2, and come walking out as if you'd just be coming out of Crisis 1.

Or maybe I've read one too many time paradoxes that that makes perfect sense to me. :D

[Wellness]

Well, if you are losing Waid, Bedard is definately one of the guys that maintain if not improve the momentum of the previous run. Exiles was great and I have only heard good things about the Negation. The book should be right up his ally.

[theodoros2]

Um, do you realize we're in complete agreement? You're making the exact same point I was. Comics are currently being written with a massively *artifically* decompressed construction, also known as "writing for the trades".

There's no reason that massive story arcs shouldn't last six issues. However, the major element that many many writers routinely forget is that each individual issue must also tell a story in itself which is worthwhile. Every issue is somebody's first issue.

I would like him to write more than 12, maybe 24 issues in a row.

[SageShini]

Jeez...am I the only one who liked the Legion Lost/DnA Legion? That was a fantastic book.

Anyway. Waid's run is...interesting. People who don't like it simply because the catchphrase of the book appears to be "Eat it, gramps!" are stuck in the past and want this to be the same book it was 20-30 years ago. Forever. And with people saying stuff like, "I don't like these Post-Crisis DC comics" (which is just plain ridiculous because Crisis is older than I am and I'm about to go to college--why are you still READING comics if they've been bad THAT long?) and "its not the series from 1985", you can't say I'm wrong. Things change. I was highly upset when my favorite monthly book got a reboot just as I had caught up, but I dealt with it and moved on. Waid's run so far has been a tad too decompressed for my liking but its overall still a book about heroism, saving the galaxy and all that jazz. And the art is fantastic. Not really something that matters a lot to me, but always a plus. The point is--there's a big difference between Waid's LOSH and what's been happening over at Marvel ever since Bendis took over the Avengers in 04. You want something to complain about, complain about THAT. But don't just complain, stop buying the frigging books. But I digress. (As I tend to do now and again.)

I've never heard of Tony Bedard (sorry man), which is all the more reason for me to continue reading, since I don't KNOW whether it will be good or not and he at least deserves a chance. Its just six issues. If it sucks, I'll have forgotten about it by the time the NEXT six issues are done. If its great, well I just hope they keep him on. :)

[JoeK32880]

I've said it before. Just because you don't like a book doesn't mean you should stop buying it. There are plenty of reasons to buy books you don't enjoy, chiefly because you love the characters or you have a complete collection you're reluctant to end. Buying a book should not necessarily be an endorsement of the book. If you have problems with it you should feel free to talk about them without being told to drop the book.

All the people that tell you to drop a book you don't like are the same ones that criticize you for commenting on a book you're not reading. You can't win.

And if you're buying a book and not enjoying it you should let the publisher know, and they shouldn't just dismiss you because they're getting your cash anyway.

Also, are people intentionally dense about how many reboots Legion has had? Where did this idea come from that they've been rebooted more than twice? Is it because they've had multiple series? If so, Captain America's been rebooted at least five times already.

[Amoebas]

Also, are people intentionally dense about how many reboots Legion has had? Where did this idea come from that they've been rebooted more than twice? Is it because they've had multiple series? If so, Captain America's been rebooted at least five times already.
I've read others say that they consider Post COIE a reboot - not me, the pocket universe was a retcon not a reboot.

Others have said the 5 years later series was a reboot. I consider that a continuation that takes place 5 years after LSH v3 #63.

What I do consider a reboot is when a few issues into Giffen/Bierbaum era, Mon-El and Mordu (and Glorith and etc etc etc) remade the entire universe a number of times. Eventually ending up with one that closely resembled the original but freed itself of the Superboy influence. New universe + elimination/addition of certain characters = reboot.

Post Zero-Hour - clearly a reboot.
Eat It Grampa - clearly a reboot.

So counting the Giffen/Bierbaum stuff as a whole, that makes three reboots (and counting).

But for some reason I'm thinking there's another (way older) - but I may be confusing that with an alternate universe (ala LSH #300). Something to ponder while I drive to work today.

[vbartilucci]

*OF COURSE* six issues is enough time to tell a "real" story that's not a fill-in.

In the first six issues of New Teen Titans, Wolfman and Perez managed to introduce ...(a lot of great stuff-VB)
So it's not that modern writers can't tell compelling stories in less than six issues; they simply choose not to.

I'll clarifabolate.

If a writer is only going to get six issues on a book, that's usually for a reason. Either they only want him for a short time for a hot-shot to sales, or perhaps a regular writer cannot be found yet, or perhaps (as I surmise/fear) they plan to make major changes after that six months.

So while it's perfectly POSSIBLE to tell a great story with lots of future implications in six issues, and many have, if you're told you're a transitional writer, there's not as great an impetus to do so.

The first six issues of Teen Titans you mention were not a standalone six issues, they were the first six issues of a legendary multi-year run. If they were told "you're getting six months on this book, then someone else is gonna come in and do something all new and different", there's less of a reason to set up any major plotlines or character arcs. So it'll likely be a standalone story.

There are exceptions of course. Andreyko packed the last five issues of Manhunter so tight with character work and setups for new plots, they're not "the last five issues" anymore.

As I mentioned later on in my post, I'm hoping Tony uses this run as an audition, packs it tight with stuff so people react in the sales end, and he gets the gig.

[turk9]

The complaints about the Waid Legion sound like love letters compared to the fan reaction to the Giffen-Bierbaum reboot, though. THAT was a failure of monstrous proportions.

I must have been the only LSH fan to absolutely love that run...probably my favorite with the Levitz/Giffen run a close second. I was so pissed when they retconned the "adult Legion". I also wish they would publish that in trades.

As for the Waid/Kitson run, kind of hit and miss so far, but I'll stick around and see what Bedard does. I'm too much of a Legion fan to give up yet.

turk

[Matthew E]

I HAVE TWO THINGS TO MENTION (why am I yelling?)

1. Is it possible Bedard's 6-issue stint is an experiment; if sales improve, Bedard stays...if sales flatline, we're looking at Legion Reboot #19.

2. Those of you who disliked Waid's run - what was wrong with it? Specifically. I did not follow this Legion series but I would assume a writer, and hardcore DC fanboy, like Mark Waid on a LSH book would be GOLD. What went wrong, in your opinion?

1. It's possible, but the impression I'm getting is that DC already has some kind of impressive creative team ready to take over from Bedard after 6 issues. I hope they're not silly enough to reboot again; there's nothing wrong with this Legion that can't be fixed without a reboot. (Of course, the same thing was true of the DnA Legion.)

2. The main complaints I ran into about Waid's run were:
a) pace is too slow (this one I agree with)
b) villains are uninteresting (this one I agree with)
c) the Legionnaires are thugs (this one I disagree with, a lot)
d) Supergirl is annoying (I like Waid's Supergirl, but that's why they make chocolate and vanilla)
e) the eat-it-Grandpa generation gap stuff gets in the way (I say that the generation gap stuff is only part of the background and is in the middle of being shifted permanently to the back burner)

I think there are a lot of Legion fans out there who will always find a reason to reject anything that isn't identical to their favourite Legion comic from when they were fourteen years old. Waid and Kitson created a perfectly good Legion run and have nothing to be ashamed of. It could have been better but it was (is!) still very good. Not a home run, but a ringing double up the gap.

Jeez...am I the only one who liked the Legion Lost/DnA Legion? That was a fantastic book.

No, I liked DnA's stuff; they were great. The only Legion era I liked better than theirs was the Giffen/Bierbaums 5YL Legion.

[SmileOnADog]

If the Legion woke up one morning to find that they were still in the pre-Crisis DCU I would be the happiest man on planet Earth. BTW I loved the Giffen/Bierbaum LSH. Loved.

[Ghostrider]

I was all stoked until I read the 6 issues only part. Hopefully he will become the permanent writer.

[Comic-Reader]

Jeez...am I the only one who liked the Legion Lost/DnA Legion? That was a fantastic book.

Anyway. Waid's run is...interesting. People who don't like it simply because the catchphrase of the book appears to be "Eat it, gramps!" are stuck in the past and want this to be the same book it was 20-30 years ago. Forever. And with people saying stuff like, "I don't like these Post-Crisis DC comics" (which is just plain ridiculous because Crisis is older than I am and I'm about to go to college--why are you still READING comics if they've been bad THAT long?) and "its not the series from 1985", you can't say I'm wrong. Things change. I was highly upset when my favorite monthly book got a reboot just as I had caught up, but I dealt with it and moved on. Waid's run so far has been a tad too decompressed for my liking but its overall still a book about heroism, saving the galaxy and all that jazz. And the art is fantastic. Not really something that matters a lot to me, but always a plus. The point is--there's a big difference between Waid's LOSH and what's been happening over at Marvel ever since Bendis took over the Avengers in 04. You want something to complain about, complain about THAT. But don't just complain, stop buying the frigging books. But I digress. (As I tend to do now and again.)

I've never heard of Tony Bedard (sorry man), which is all the more reason for me to continue reading, since I don't KNOW whether it will be good or not and he at least deserves a chance. Its just six issues. If it sucks, I'll have forgotten about it by the time the NEXT six issues are done. If its great, well I just hope they keep him on. :)


Speaking as an old-time Legion fan, I think I can clarify some things.

First, it's not that everything about the pre-Crisis Legion was so great and everything published in the last 20 years sucks. As you point out, that doesn't make sense that we would keep buying it.

Frankly, the last few pre-Crisis years weren't all that great for the Legion, but it's not about the particular stories. It's about the Legion HISTORY.

The biggest problem about the Crisis is that it permanently altered Legion history in a way that damaged the Legion irrevocably. To add insult to injury, the initial retcons of removing Superboy and Supergirl were further compounded by more retcons and then out-and-out reboots. Once Zero Hour happened, the ENTIRE Legion history was wiped out, which upset many fans who loved the Legion.

It would be as if Marvel decided to start X-Men over again from scratch and throw out everything previously written about 616-X-Men. Even if the new stuff they come up with is good, it would still leave a bad taste in your mouth, wouldn't it? You would always be comparing the new stuff to the stuff you grew up with, and there's no way current comics can ever compete with your old memories. Even crappy comics become better in your mind the older they (and you) get.

Also, even for a new reader, I wonder how much appeal this Legion has. It's a good series, but it doesn't have the scope and importance of the original, so even if it's more accessible, there are lots of better comics out there competing for your money.

I had a lot of hope for the new Legion when it started, but it only lasted a few issues. It's not a bad comic by any stretch of the imagination; it just simply isn't as good as the decades-long history it (and the previous reboot) replaced.

Also, about Tony Bedard, when someone brought up "Route 666," it reminded me that he also wrote the well-received "Negation" series from CrossGen, I believe, so I'll be interested to see what he can do with the Legion.

At least he seems to know the history, so hopefully he can capture a tone with his stories that will satisfy the old and new fans alike.

[motteditor]

I've read others say that they consider Post COIE a reboot - not me, the pocket universe was a retcon not a reboot.
Others have said the 5 years later series was a reboot. I consider that a continuation that takes place 5 years after LSH v3 #63.

I think it's also not just reboots, but the book can undergo a radical shift in focus that feels like a reboot. Take the difference from the post-ZH Legion to the Legion Lost. Technically, not a reboot, but the difference in styles and art were so extreme, I wouldn't be shocked if some people mentally just lumped it in with the official reboots. I get the impression people do the same thing with the 5YL Legion, etc.

[Marc Patten]

In any case, I'm gonna have fun, and I hope you do, too. If DC likes what I do and they ever want me to do more, I'll be only too happy to say yes. If not, rest assured the next guy to come along will be bigger and better.

Either way, thanks for your responses -- even the negative ones!

Tony B

And this, my friends is why Tony is such a class act. A no nonsense, no BS kind of creator. Go back and read his stuff for Valiant (Solar), Broadway (Star Seed), Crusade (Shi), Crossgen (Negation / Route 666) or his creator owned RETRO ROCKET for Image. See how his storytelling has grown, his ideas get more ambitious, and his dialogue become punchier and snappier than a bowl of Rice Crispies. Bedard is headed for greatness, and I'm not just saying that because he's a better singer than I am.

You know what, Now I've got a jonesing to interview him. Hey Tony, how about I do a spotlight on you in my CBG column for an upcoming issue? ("Comics in Action" --plug plug). We can rehash to old days and talk about Countdown.

Folks, go buy this man's books!! You won't regret it.

Marc
Destination Entertainmnent

[Redmond]

2. The main complaints I ran into about Waid's run were:
a) pace is too slow (this one I agree with)
b) villains are uninteresting (this one I agree with)
c) the Legionnaires are thugs (this one I disagree with, a lot)
d) Supergirl is annoying (I like Waid's Supergirl, but that's why they make chocolate and vanilla)
e) the eat-it-Grandpa generation gap stuff gets in the way (I say that the generation gap stuff is only part of the background and is in the middle of being shifted permanently to the back burner)


Hurgh! It was the only monthly book I was reading and looking forward too:

a The pacing isn't slow. Things actually happened. It seemed slow to A.D.D. people because it was all new stuff that required attention to enjoy.
b The villains were interesting. They also weren't their former best friends shoehorned into villains (ie every other single comic I've read from the past 10 years) They were brought into conflict with people outside of their group.
c Legionaires had principles and they could talk problems out intelligently.
d ??? She seemed like a real girl, not some generic comics whoree
e That's the only thing I didn't like.

Waid's run was awesome and very original. I'm looking forward to whatever next monthly he takes on.

[SmileOnADog]

As much as I love his artwork I blame this entire mess on John Byrne and the editors of Superman circa 1988. Removing Superboy from DC history really screwed the pooch for everything that came after. So many band-aids for a lot of blood.

[Samy Merchi]

Just because you don't like a book doesn't mean you should stop buying it.
I fully agree, Joe, and I also think the converse applies -- just because you like a book doesn't mean you should buy it. There are perfectly valid reasons to pass up on a book you'd enjoy -- the most important, of course, being lack of money, but also all sorts of protests work. Maybe you think Kyle Rayner should be the main GL, not Hal Jordan, and you don't buy Hal's book in protest. Maybe you're diametrically opposed to reboots and don't buy Legion in protest. Maybe you really hate that they're not acknowledging Spoiler at all and drop Robin in protest. Who knows. Some people might not like that people drop books in protest -- but until there is another REAL WAY to make your voice heard, that's what people have to do. Maybe if DC set up some kind of polling structures, regularly polled their fanbase about all kinds of questions, and actually listened to the results, then maybe people wouldn't feel compelled to drop books to make their voices heard. But right now, as things stand, "voting with your dollar" is the ONLY real way to vote on any issue.

And I aim to exercise my right to vote. :)

[docgymll]

I think it's interesting that the Bedard run will take us through #36. There has long been rumors and speculations that Waid's run was intended to run though 36 issues. I think we still may be heading for a major alteration/retcon/reboot/event after #36.

Back when 52 was started, there were comments offered from various DC folks that the Legion would be involved in "the next big event." But then the "next event" seems to have morphed into Countdown - which we're told is counting down to "the next event." If, as we all seem to be assuming, 52 ends with the revelation of the existence of the multiverse, and Countdown is focusing on the implications of that revelation, it seems we've got an opportunity at the end of Countdown for a significant re-boot, de-boot or other changes in the Legion. Perhaps, as we've seen the post-ZH legion shoe-horned into "Earth-247", we'll see the current incarnation written off as another alternate universe too.

For what it's worth, I've actually been enjoying Waid's run. I admit that there are parts of it that simply didn't work, and the pace of the stories is definitely much better when read in TPB fashion rather than single issues. Overall, I've enjoyed it - although I'd probably have been willing to buy it for Kitson's work alone.

I've been reading Legion since the early 80's - I loved the Levitz run, and I guess was one of the few who was also absolutely crazy about the 5YL legion. The SW6 era had some good stories, but was just way too complicated. I liked the post-ZH era, but didn't care for the Legion Lost/Legion World period. I found the Progenitor story, and especially the artwork, just too "dark" for my tastes, although I warmed up to it towards the middle of "The Legion."

[Amoebas]

As much as I love his artwork I blame this entire mess on John Byrne and the editors of Superman circa 1988. Removing Superboy from DC history really screwed the pooch for everything that came after. So many band-aids for a lot of blood.Just for kicks - here's a link to what Byrne himself has to say on the topic....

byrnerobotics.com faq (http://www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=2&T1=Questions+about+Comic+Book+Projects#1 47)

[CMAAB]

Originally posted by Comic-Reader

Speaking as an old-time Legion fan, I think I can clarify some things.

First, it's not that everything about the pre-Crisis Legion was so great and everything published in the last 20 years sucks. As you point out, that doesn't make sense that we would keep buying it.

Frankly, the last few pre-Crisis years weren't all that great for the Legion, but it's not about the particular stories. It's about the Legion HISTORY.

The biggest problem about the Crisis is that it permanently altered Legion history in a way that damaged the Legion irrevocably. To add insult to injury, the initial retcons of removing Superboy and Supergirl were further compounded by more retcons and then out-and-out reboots. Once Zero Hour happened, the ENTIRE Legion history was wiped out, which upset many fans who loved the Legion.

It would be as if Marvel decided to start X-Men over again from scratch and throw out everything previously written about 616-X-Men. Even if the new stuff they come up with is good, it would still leave a bad taste in your mouth, wouldn't it? You would always be comparing the new stuff to the stuff you grew up with, and there's no way current comics can ever compete with your old memories. Even crappy comics become better in your mind the older they (and you) get.

Also, even for a new reader, I wonder how much appeal this Legion has. It's a good series, but it doesn't have the scope and importance of the original, so even if it's more accessible, there are lots of better comics out there competing for your money.

I had a lot of hope for the new Legion when it started, but it only lasted a few issues. It's not a bad comic by any stretch of the imagination; it just simply isn't as good as the decades-long history it (and the previous reboot) replaced.

Also, about Tony Bedard, when someone brought up "Route 666," it reminded me that he also wrote the well-received "Negation" series from CrossGen, I believe, so I'll be interested to see what he can do with the Legion.

At least he seems to know the history, so hopefully he can capture a tone with his stories that will satisfy the old and new fans alike.


Thank you. Finally a reasonable explanation from a longtime Legion fan as to why people don't like this series other than just "it sucks". I've liked this series from the beginning but when you put things that way I can understand why long time Legion fans might not like the book.

Originally posted by Ghostrider

I was all stoked until I read the 6 issues only part. Hopefully he will become the permanent writer.

I thought the same exact thing.

[SageShini]

I've said it before. Just because you don't like a book doesn't mean you should stop buying it. There are plenty of reasons to buy books you don't enjoy, chiefly because you love the characters or you have a complete collection you're reluctant to end. Buying a book should not necessarily be an endorsement of the book. If you have problems with it you should feel free to talk about them without being told to drop the book.

All the people that tell you to drop a book you don't like are the same ones that criticize you for commenting on a book you're not reading. You can't win.

And if you're buying a book and not enjoying it you should let the publisher know, and they shouldn't just dismiss you because they're getting your cash anyway.


What? That's horrible logic! If you don't like a book, stop buying it and spend your money on something else. I'm tired of people whining about how they "have" to buy so many books and DC/Marvel is killing their wallets, then they proceed to complain about how they don't even like the books they're buying. I'm not saying you can't keep up with the book by asking people, reading summaries or whatever, then saying the book sucks. Go ahead. But don't go out and spend your hard-earned MONEY on it. Personally I refuse to read Civil War-related stuff because I think its a horrible idea. I keep up with it by checking the wiki articles now and again, and every time I do I feel more and more insulted and the possibility of my buying the books drops further and further.

Like it or not, you vote with your dollar. And if you think DRASTIC changes are required to make the book you like "good" again, then the only way they're going to pay attention is if a DRASTIC sales drop occurs.


It would be as if Marvel decided to start X-Men over again from scratch and throw out everything previously written about 616-X-Men. Even if the new stuff they come up with is good, it would still leave a bad taste in your mouth, wouldn't it?


Yeah, as they just recently decided that mutants are now becoming extinct instead of becoming the dominant race....yeah. I'd say a bad taste is in my mouth right now. Tastes a little like...hogwash. :D


I fully agree, Joe, and I also think the converse applies -- just because you like a book doesn't mean you should buy it. There are perfectly valid reasons to pass up on a book you'd enjoy -- the most important, of course, being lack of money, but also all sorts of protests work. Maybe you think Kyle Rayner should be the main GL, not Hal Jordan, and you don't buy Hal's book in protest. Maybe you're diametrically opposed to reboots and don't buy Legion in protest. Maybe you really hate that they're not acknowledging Spoiler at all and drop Robin in protest. Who knows.


This gives me a headache as it equally makes no sense. If you picked up a book and decided you liked it, then enjoy the book and stop letting some small thing irritate you. Now, personally I DO like Kyle best, but I haven't read Johns' Lantern, and I don't intend to 'cause I may just like it, then I'd have to actually pick it up. (That makes no sense either, so I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite. Damn.) So I read Ion and hope it gets a monthly. So far that seems unlikely but oh well. That other stuff though...there's nothing to be done about reboots, and the most Robin will ever acknowledge Spoiler's death is probably that issue that dealt with suicide. That was good enough for me (barely) and so I read the current Robin because the writer isn't that bad. Suffice to say, when Willingham was on it and all that War Games crap was being done--I dropped it. Just like I was about to drop Nightwing a few months after Jones started and I thought it was lame, then Wolfman started and things picked up a little.


a The pacing isn't slow. Things actually happened. It seemed slow to A.D.D. people because it was all new stuff that required attention to enjoy.
b The villains were interesting. They also weren't their former best friends shoehorned into villains (ie every other single comic I've read from the past 10 years) They were brought into conflict with people outside of their group.
c Legionaires had principles and they could talk problems out intelligently.
d ??? She seemed like a real girl, not some generic comics whoree
e That's the only thing I didn't like.


Internet rule #3: There's always someone who disagrees totally with either you, or EVERYONE else.

[Jim]

I liked the pre-Crisis DCU and those are the characters and Universe that I want to read about.

Maybe next time..............

Don't waste your time, or ours. The Pre-Crisis DCU has been gone for 20 years.

If none of the books have grabbed you and held on in two *decades*, and if it's a set of characters and their behaviors that you want to read about which have been gone since Reagan was in office, let's face facts: it isn't worth your time to bother with anything DC Comics produces today. You're not going to get the stuff you want.

Stop throwing your money down a hole, and stop complaining that the hole is there for you to throw money down.

[Set]

I tend to think that the pacing *was* slow, but then again, *all* comics pacing seems to be excruciatingly slow these days.

The stories I consider to be the *best* Legion stories, the Great Darkness Saga, the Universo Project, the Legion of Super-Villains take-over of Orando, all were told in four or five issues, and *tons* of powerful and lasting stories were told in a single issue (Timber Wolf going to Lythyl, or the death of the Emerald Empress, for instance). And in this thread, we have people saying that Tony Bedard 'can't do anything' because he's 'only there for six issues.'

Maybe they're right, maybe the days of writers able to tell a *great* story in four or five issues is over and I should limp back to my rocking chair and get back to grumbling about the 'good old days.'

The latest Justice League relaunch is on issue six or so *and hasn't even assembled their team.* It takes an entire *year* for one of the Ultimates arcs to be resolved, and another six months to account for the lateness factor because of overpaid superstar 'name' writers who lack any sort of discipline (or talent, IMO), and so long as they continue to be pandered to, will never be motivated to get any.

And people question why comic book sales are dropping?

Comics aren't 'dying.' They're being KILLED.

[Samy Merchi]

there's nothing to be done about reboots
I'm sorry but I don't believe that. If I believed that, I would think like you, which I don't.

[JoeK32880]

I've been reading Legion since the early 80's - I loved the Levitz run, and I guess was one of the few who was also absolutely crazy about the 5YL legion. The SW6 era had some good stories, but was just way too complicated. I liked the post-ZH era, but didn't care for the Legion Lost/Legion World period. I found the Progenitor story, and especially the artwork, just too "dark" for my tastes, although I warmed up to it towards the middle of "The Legion."

I pretty much agree with this, particularly about DnA's run. The Legion was just starting to get quite good.

But I don't see how SW6 was all that complicated. They were a team of clones. No further explanation necessary.

Also, I'm not going to stop buying the Legion because I don't like the current take on the team. The fact that I care enough to spend the money and read every issue should give my opinion some cache with the people making the book.

[Jason Seaver]

And in this thread, we have people saying that Tony Bedard 'can't do anything' because he's 'only there for six issues.'
Which makes me wonder if they've read any of Bedard's stuff. Yeah, he had that 12-part Exiles story, but it broke down into several smaller ones, and was in the middle of a lot of one-to-three-part stories. I don't think you'll ever hear many complaints that Negation or Route 666 was padded.

If there's anyone writing comics right now who can make an impact with just a few issues, it's Bedard.

[Jim]

It's possible that Bedard has done great work I just haven't read. Thing is, he ruined "Exiles" for me.

If you can, check out the collections from CrossGen of Mystic, Negation, and the fantastic Route 666. Those were what made me notice Tony's name.

Damn. Still want to know how Negation War would have ended.

[Jim]

I've said it before. Just because you don't like a book doesn't mean you should stop buying it. There are plenty of reasons to buy books you don't enjoy, chiefly because you love the characters or you have a complete collection you're reluctant to end. Buying a book should not necessarily be an endorsement of the book.

Have we not progressed past 1993, when people would buy new comics as "investments" -- bag em, board em, and put them away, but don't read em? If you're buying a comic that you don't like, that you won't read, in the name of having a "complete" collection... what's the purpose of the collection if you don't enjoy it?

If you're buying things you don't like in the name of a "collection", maybe you should seek treatment. Or just give me the money -- you've apparently got plenty, if you're doing this -- and let me buy them instead. I promise to enjoy them!

[Samy Merchi]

If you're buying things you don't like in the name of a "collection", maybe you should seek treatment.If you're so judgmental that you condemn people who enjoy different things than you, I think *you* should seek treatment.

[Matthew E]

Well, let's put it this way, which maybe both sides could agree to: people should buy what they want to buy.

[Samy Merchi]

I can definitely agree to that.

[Brenticles]

I've said it before. Just because you don't like a book doesn't mean you should stop buying it. There are plenty of reasons to buy books you don't enjoy, chiefly because you love the characters or you have a complete collection you're reluctant to end. Buying a book should not necessarily be an endorsement of the book. If you have problems with it you should feel free to talk about them without being told to drop the book.

That has to be the silliest thing I have ever read. Do you have any involvement with business at all? Do you have any concept of sales and revenues?

Let's put it like this. The only truly reliable indicator of customer happiness to a business is sales. If sales are steady or increasing then customers are happy. Period. There is no other interpretation from a business point of view. But if sales drop then that means customers are unhappy and a change is needed. I continue to be dumbfounded by people that buy stuff they don't like and then complain about it. But hey, continue to buy DC Comics that you don't like and write complaint letters. Then DC execs and editors will read your letter, look at steady sales, and conclude you are a minority. No change will occur. Besides if you buy their product regardless, why do they need to change anything? They don't because they already have your money! No change will occur.

Since I like almost everything DC puts out please continue to purchase it no matter what you think of it. I thank you for supporting what I like and helping me to keep it just the way I want it.

[OM]

Speaking as an old-time Legion fan, I think I can clarify some things....Don't mind ifI chime in with my own clarifcations as well :)

First, it's not that everything about the pre-Crisis Legion was so great and everything published in the last 20 years sucks. As you point out, that doesn't make sense that we would keep buying it....On the other hand, the X-Books have sucked hind tit for about 10 years now, and yet even the critics amongst the die-hard Marvel Zombies continue to pad Marvel's coffers with their $3/issue pusher's fees :p

Frankly, the last few pre-Crisis years weren't all that great for the Legion, but it's not about the particular stories. It's about the Legion HISTORY....That dreaded history that the Gen-X and Slacker generations despise because it required them to actually go and *read* back issues in order to be able to understand the complexities of, say, the relationship between Wildfire and Dawnstar, or just exactly why Nemesis Kid was such a bastard, or why the Dominators were once considered good guys, etc, etc. The later LSH readers just got too lazy to do research, and instead chose to whine about having to do so. Punks.

The biggest problem about the Crisis is that it permanently altered Legion history in a way that damaged the Legion irrevocably. To add insult to injury, the initial retcons of removing Superboy and Supergirl were further compounded by more retcons and then out-and-out reboots. Once Zero Hour happened, the ENTIRE Legion history was wiped out, which upset many fans who loved the Legion....Byrne was the one who set the stage for the debacle. When he first announced that Superboy was being retconned out of existence along with Supergirl, Comet, Beppo, Streaky and - God/Yahweh/Roddenberry damn him - Krypto, Legion fans across the world pointed out the problem this would cause for the team. Byrne, being the obstinate jackass we all know him to be, blew off the fans' concerns with disinterest and/or derision, and this led to the "Pocket Universe" solution that, because Levitz was involved, worked for the most part. Granted, we didn't get Superboy to stick around where he belonged, but Legion history was preserved.

That is, until Levitz decided to retire from the book in order to devote more time running DC, and they made the major mistake of letting Giffen bring in the Bierbaums and the "Five Year Gap". You'd think after how much of a total debacle that mess was, Didio would have never considered "One Year Later"...

It would be as if Marvel decided to start X-Men over again from scratch and throw out everything previously written about 616-X-Men. Even if the new stuff they come up with is good, it would still leave a bad taste in your mouth, wouldn't it? You would always be comparing the new stuff to the stuff you grew up with, and there's no way current comics can ever compete with your old memories. Even crappy comics become better in your mind the older they (and you) get....But then again, the question here is whether Marvel would have rebooted all the other books in their line as well. The problem with the ZH reboot is that it *still* didn't address all the times the Legion had interacted with the 20th century, and left far too many plotlines dangling from the Bierbaum debacle. And since Mark Waid was involved heavily in the "Post-Hat Trick" reboot, it should have come as no surprise that he pulled the same stunt with his post-DnA reboot: "Just reboot the whole mess and f'uck the unresolved plots!"

I said it before and I'll say it again: If Waid wasn't capable enough of a writer to have "fixed" the Legion after it was "broken" by COIE, ZH, and the Bierbaums, then if he loved the Legion as much as he's claimed over the years, then he should have gi