CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE PANEL LIVE! FROM LA

[MattBrady]

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/WWLA_07/Marvel/sat/CW_FS_WOLV_TURNER_t.jpg" border="0" align="right">Marvel's <b>Civil War Fallout: The Initiative</b> panel has just begun, and thanks to the miracles of modern technology, we're there, and reporting it live. An unlike previous conventions, no cybernetic implants were necessary.

As the title suggests, the panel's focus is the Marvel Universe post Civil War - and is also the first time Captain America writer Ed Brubaker has appeared at a panel since <b>Captain America #25</b> hit.

This could get messy.

<i>Updating... </i>

Click here (http://www.newsarama.com/WWLA_07/Marvel/initiative.html) for the panel report.

[Toneloak]

Looks like Tuner's trying to get all Cho-ish looking at Spider-Woman's hips. :D

Nice art looks like variants for something maybe Fallen Son. If so, then what's the purpose of Tuner's Spider-Women cover?

Edit: I Just had a thought. Maybe they're New Avengers memorial variants.

[Johnny Triangles]

I'm sure I'm in the minority based on board opinions I see, but MAN! do I dig Marc Silvestri much better than I do Jim Lee. Silvestri's stuff just looks better all the time, I wish we'd see more of his work instead of the recent upsurge in Jim Lee stuff we've been subjected to the past few years. Get him drawing full-time again, put him on the Authority!!

[Kolimar]

As the title suggests, the panel's focus is the Marvel Universe post Civil War - and is also the first time Marvel has done a Civil War specific panel since Captain America as well as the first where writer Ed Brubaker has appeared at a panel since the issue.

This could get messy.

Heh... :p :D

[astronato]

The Falcon is up on Tony's wall of display panels. Interesting.

Could he be drafted against his will?

[Kolimar]

This led to a slide displaying a couple of the Michael Turner variant covers, available below. Loeb mentioned that he was happy to have him provide covers, since his son was friends with Turner, who also has dealt with cancer.

And, iirc, keeps dealing with it, unfortunately.

[Equinox]

I have to say, that image of Wolverine is pretty damn badass. I like the Astonishing costume, but I like it even better w/o the mask. I don't think Wolverine really NEEDS a mask anymore; it's not like his identity is that sacrosanct or even secret.

[Kolimar]

Is Sentry going to do anything? Jenkins: "I think it's fair to say that since I'm not writing the Sentry, he's going to do something. [laughs] Actually, there is a massive plan for the Sentry, so wait and see." Brevoort repeated, from yesterday, that Sentry is going to play a major role in World War Hulk.

The only one with a clear chance of defeating the Hulk.

[bebopeva88]

The only one with a clear chance of defeating the Hulk.

That'd be Black Bolt. :p

Sentry is likely going to be Hulk's ally -- they're really close friends. Hulk acts like Sentry's puppydog -- see the original Sentry mini.

[C. The B.B.C]

The only one with a clear chance of defeating the Hulk.

Unless Thor comes back midway through the "festivities."

[BanMan]

Sentry is likely going to be Hulk's ally -- they're really close friends. Hulk acts like Sentry's puppydog -- see the original Sentry mini.

Hulk just has a thing for bright shiny lights. I've seen Dagger (?) do it to him too.

[C. The B.B.C]

That'd be Black Bolt. :p

Sentry is likely going to be Hulk's ally -- they're really close friends. Hulk acts like Sentry's puppydog -- see the original Sentry mini.

And I'd guess you ain't seen the preview stuff for WWH #1...

Black Bolt and the Inhumans, being on the moon, are the Earth's first line of defense... And they're gonna get their asses whooped!

[Mick]

Great Lakes Initiative? Count me in!

[Purplestain]

Yeah, blackbolt is either going to lose, or surrender. The Hulk is more angry and therefore stronger than he ever has been. I think it will come down to Sentry trying the defend the Illuminati and their allies.

[CaptainCanad]

"Is there a plan for the Young Avengers?" Loeb says that they're going to be in Fallen Son
Yet another reason to buy this damn thing; I spend enough as it is without a five-part comemoration of a death that won't stick, but I still keep feeling the urge to buy it. Ugh.

Of course, I'll be buying the GLI thing.

[donkeypuncho]

goddamn, I want to see more of the images they showed.

[motteditor]

even though Reed and Sue aren't currently part of the team, they'll be in every issue.

Huh. This lessens my interest, though it's probably a good decision. I've just never been able to get into the FF, though I really liked McDuffie's Beyond. I'll check out next issue and see what I think, I suppose.

Nova was up next, with talk about the upcoming fight between Nova and ex-Speedball Penance.

And what was said about it? I really hope Nova points out how absolutely moronic the character formerly known as Robbie is now and it doesn't end with him saying "OK, you made the right choice to wear a gimp suit."

McCann jokingly referred to the character as "villain of the year."

It really irritates me that they don't seem to realize how badly they've damaged the character. They may all think it's a big joke, but lots of fans do seem to see him as a villain now.

New Warriors is starting in June, with McCann saying that it's going to be mostly new characters, but some familiar faces will show up as well.

Man, I was hoping we'd learn more about this.

Great Lakes Avengers? Brevoort: "There will be a Deadpool and the Great Lakes Avengers Special. They will be the Great Lakes Initiative - GLI."

Sounds like fun. Who's doing it?

Is Sentry going to do anything? Jenkins: "I think it's fair to say that since I'm not writing the Sentry, he's going to do something. [laughs] Actually, there is a massive plan for the Sentry, so wait and see." Brevoort repeated, from yesterday, that Sentry is going to play a major role in World War Hulk.

Certainly lessens my interest in that story.

"What about the future of Captain Mar-Vell?" McCann: "Little too soon to say, but there is a plan."

I'm guessing he'll die of cancer.

"Are there plans for Scarlet Witch?" Brevoort: "She's one of the characters featured in Mystic Arcana," and added that we'll definitely see Hawkeye at some point in the future, as well, although wouldn't say where. Loeb added that it's difficult to explore Captain America's death without reflecting on Clint Barton at least a little bit.

Thank God someone's realized that and that we'll see Clint and they're calling him by his codename. Now if he'll just be written by someone who gets him (Slott) and/or whose writing I like.

Any word (from someone there) whether the Mystic Arcana story involves psychotic murderess Wanda or a past story with Wanda when she used to be a heroine?

Will Daredevil register? Brubaker said that "as long as Daredevil keeps a low-profile," that Tony Stark won't go after him, giving the amount of trouble Matt Murdock has had with identity issues - essentially "don't ask, don't tell."

Suddenly Stark shows a soul? Perhaps he could have thought about this before he threw people into the life-sucking Negative Zone, or got Bill Foster killed or got Cap killed... This is the problem with saying Stark's just following the law. He apparently decides who's worth hounding to death and who's not based on his whims.

Will there be more silent, or 'Nuff Said books? Brevoort: No plans.

Thank goodness.

Are the Thunderbolts going to take on New Avengers? Brevoort: "Not right away

Well, that's good at least.

Relationship status of Hank Pym and the Wasp? McCann: "Check New Avengers."

Where Bendis will probably have Hank hitting Jan again. Hopefully Slott will get to deal with this too, since I'm sure he won't having Hank's friends calling him a loser.

[BanMan]

This led to Brubaker talking about JMS and Quesada's One More Day, saying "If you were really mad about unmasking Spider-Man, you'll be happy at the end of that story. Or maybe not."

Some how I thought the unmasking would have lasted longer.:confused:

[Jed Saxon]

There were people b-side me, that read B-Sides? Oi! That's cool. :D

[CaptainCanad]

Sounds like fun. Who's doing it?

Slott and Nicieza.

[The Guvnor]

I really like those covers by Turner.

They really should have a book about Captain Marvel ready to ship soon, it keeps sounding like they couldn't be bothered to revisit the character.

Great Lakes Initiative should be really fun.

It sounds like Marvel are planning another big event within the next 18 months given the statements about Nick Fury and Doctor Doom. Pity Doom won't be in the FF.

[JLAJRC]

Yeah, blackbolt is either going to lose, or surrender. The Hulk is more angry and therefore stronger than he ever has been. I think it will come down to Sentry trying the defend the Illuminati and their allies.

Probably. But I think it would be better and funner if BB teamed with the Hulk. Hulk for revenge, BB because he doesn't have good relations with Earth at the moment and wants his terrigan mists back. I can see BB making a deal with the Hulk.

[Rhyo]

Thank God someone's realized that and that we'll see Clint and they're calling him by his codename. Now if he'll just be written by someone who gets him (Slott) and/or whose writing I like.

Any word (from someone there) whether the Mystic Arcana story involves psychotic murderess Wanda or a past story with Wanda when she used to be a heroine?

The solicit for the Scarlet Witch story is already out and it's a flashback to Wanda's "gypsy" (their word, not mine) days.

And Loeb said:
Loeb added that it's difficult to explore Captain America's death without reflecting on Clint Barton at least a little bit.
Doesn't mean he actually DID write it.

Supposedly we'll see Hawkeye/Clint Barton again, written by Bendis, so one assume either Mighty or New Avengers. Doubt he's "Ronin" this time around, either.

[CaptainCanad]

Probably. But I think it would be better and funner if BB teamed with the Hulk. Hulk for revenge, BB because he doesn't have good relations with Earth at the moment and wants his terrigan mists back. I can see BB making a deal with the Hulk.
The Hulk making "deals" with any of the Illuminati really weakens his whole "smash!" case, since he's then clearly willing to forgive some of them.

[MrGreenGenes]

Was that quote about checking New Avengers for the status of the Wasp/Hank Pym relationship correct? If it is, how does it make any sense since Wasp is a Mighty Avenger and Pym is part of the Rangers in the Initiative? How would this come up in New Avengers? I'd believe Mighty Avengers as an answer, but this makes no sense.

[Rhyo]

Was that quote about checking New Avengers for the status of the Wasp/Hank Pym relationship correct? If it is, how does it make any sense since Wasp is a Mighty Avenger and Pym is part of the Rangers in the Initiative? How would this come up in New Avengers? I'd believe Mighty Avengers as an answer, but this makes no sense.

I THINK the plan is that there will be a great deal of crossover between the two titles, so you might see something about a "Mighty" character in the "New" book, or vice versa. Or Tom simply mis-spoke. It'll probably be in an "Avengers" title, anyway....

[MrGreenGenes]

I THINK the plan is that there will be a great deal of crossover between the two titles, so you might see something about a "Mighty" character in the "New" book, or vice versa. Or Tom simply mis-spoke. It'll probably be in an "Avengers" title, anyway....

That statement by McCann is going to be nothing but trouble. Now I'm gonna have to hear everyone's Hank Pym/Ronin theories, and hear how everyone thinks that Wasp will be the one to switch teams.

[Mrsupertight]

Someone should remind Turner that the 616 Wolverine is short and stocky. Besides not being a good cover it looks likethe Ultimate version of Wolverine.

[Kolimar]

That'd be Black Bolt. :p

Read C. The B.B.C's post. :p :D :p


Sentry is likely going to be Hulk's ally -- they're really close friends. Hulk acts like Sentry's puppydog -- see the original Sentry mini.

I wouldn't be so sure. This is a completely different Hulk and Sentry is allied to Iron Man now. If the Sentry doesn't fight against Hulk, it would be too easy.

[Rhyo]

That statement by McCann is going to be nothing but trouble. Now I'm gonna have to hear everyone's Hank Pym/Ronin theories, and hear how everyone thinks that Wasp will be the one to switch teams.

Right you are; that was Jim McCann who said that, not Tom Brevoort. In that case, I'm positive it was just a slip of the tongue, and he likely meant Mighty Avengers.

[bebopeva88]

And I'd guess you ain't seen the preview stuff for WWH #1...

Black Bolt and the Inhumans, being on the moon, are the Earth's first line of defense... And they're gonna get their asses whooped!

Actually, I have. And realisitcally, Black Bolt could give Hulk a run for his money without ever using his voice. Black Bolt has never lost a battle, and I doubt he will against the Hulk. There'll probably be some kind of compromise/truce/stalemate.

[bebopeva88]

Read C. The B.B.C's post. :p :D :p

I did, and telling me about a few preview pages that I've already seen doesn't really change my mind on who will beat who. Again, I don't see a clear winner emerging from that fight, because in anything not focused on the Hulk (solo title or event starring him), Black Bolt could beat him without even speaking.


I wouldn't be so sure. This is a completely different Hulk and Sentry is allied to Iron Man now. If the Sentry doesn't fight against Hulk, it would be too easy.


I can see it play out either way, but it'd be kind of silly to ignore one of the main facets of Sentry's character -- he's kinda crazy, really powerful, and he's friends with the Hulk. When the Void was coming again in the original Sentry mini, only the Hulk remembered Sentry and would stand with him initially.

[Supes]

Will Daredevil register? Brubaker said that "as long as Daredevil keeps a low-profile," that Tony Stark won't go after him, giving the amount of trouble Matt Murdock has had with identity issues - essentially "don't ask, don't tell."

What? How does this make any sense? How come Daredevil gets a pass and the many other countless heroes Stark hunted down didn't? I understand maybe Brubaker doesn't want to deal with all this Civil War stuff in Daredevil, but tough that's they way of the MU now. And I'm getting sick of writers changing Stark's outlook at every corner just to fit their book. If he's going to be hunting heroes down and tossing them into jail fine, but he's not just going to all of the sudden give Daredevil a pass because he's had some rough times. And besides if one of the reasons Stark wanted to lead S.H.I.E.L.D. was to protect everyone's identities who registered, then Daredevil wouldn't have to worry about identity issues if Stark really is protecting everyones names.

[JLAJRC]

The Hulk making "deals" with any of the Illuminati really weakens his whole "smash!" case, since he's then clearly willing to forgive some of them.

It could also mean that Hulk is willing to make a deal with someone he hates in order to further his agenda. Happens all the time. Plus, BB doesn't exactly have friendly relations with Earth at the moment. They both have something more to gain by teaming up than simply fighting each other.

[Dan_Slott]

Was that quote about checking New Avengers for the status of the Wasp/Hank Pym relationship correct? If it is, how does it make any sense since Wasp is a Mighty Avenger and Pym is part of the Rangers in the Initiative? How would this come up in New Avengers? I'd believe Mighty Avengers as an answer, but this makes no sense.

Hi. Just want to clear something up really quick--
Hank Pym isn't part of the Rangers. He was just the guy who unveiled/introduced the new team to the press (in CW #7).

[Dan_Slott]

Slott and Nicieza.

Yup. Fabian's writing half the book-- the lead feature. And I'm writing half-- a whole bunch of GLI/DEADPOOL shorts... Including Squirrel Girl's face-to-face w/ Penance... :eek:

[motteditor]

Yup. Fabian's writing half the book-- the lead feature. And I'm writing half-- a whole bunch of GLI/DEADPOOL shorts... Including Squirrel Girl's face-to-face w/ Penance... :eek:

Poor SG. Maybe she can slap Robbie out of this idiocy and bring back the Speedball we all knew and loved.

[Don Mega]

That would be great.

And then she could go on and tell everyone at Marvel that this dark, grim īn gritty stuff is so 90īs.

[Prometheus3]

Supposedly we'll see Hawkeye/Clint Barton again, written by Bendis, so one assume either Mighty or New Avengers. Doubt he's "Ronin" this time around, either.
God I hope not. Bendis can't write Hawkeye for s*** and doesn't understand the character at all.

[ROBRAM89]

God I hope not. Bendis can't write Hawkeye for s*** and doesn't understand the character at all.

So far, he's written one issue with him in it, except for the story where he barely showed up, then got a-sploded. I'd tell you to reserve judgment a bit longer, but this is the internet, where people complain about comic book movies based on the fact that they're being made, and nothing else.

[MrGreenGenes]

Hi. Just want to clear something up really quick--
Hank Pym isn't part of the Rangers. He was just the guy who unveiled/introduced the new team to the press (in CW #7).


Thanks for straightening that out for me Dan.

[motteditor]

So far, he's written one issue with him in it, except for the story where he barely showed up, then got a-sploded. I'd tell you to reserve judgment a bit longer, but this is the internet, where people complain about comic book movies based on the fact that they're being made, and nothing else.

Well, he also wrote the HoM issues where Hawkeye was going around wanting to kill everyone (though that was an alternate reality...) and the one where he goes and has sex with his amnesiac friend. Because that's how you show you're a true friend...

[ROBRAM89]

Well, he also wrote the HoM issues where Hawkeye was going around wanting to kill everyone (though that was an alternate reality...) and the one where he goes and has sex with his amnesiac friend. Because that's how you show you're a true friend...

OK, for one, if she IS, in fact, as she seems (doubt it), she did it to herself. She wanted a new life, if she wants to have sex with near-strangers that's her business.

Also, dude, she went crazy and killed him. Twice. Not to say she had it coming, but...

[CaptainCanad]

It could also mean that Hulk is willing to make a deal with someone he hates in order to further his agenda. Happens all the time. Plus, BB doesn't exactly have friendly relations with Earth at the moment. They both have something more to gain by teaming up than simply fighting each other.
What does the Hulk have to "gain"? He's on a quest for bloody vengeance, and allying with Black Bolt essentially means he can set aside one-fourth of it just to get to the other three; if he can set aside his hatred of Black Bolt, there's no reason he can't do it for Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, and Doctor Strange.

[THE_DMC]

I was at this panel today and let me tell you that I was very dissapointed in MARVEL. They kept joking around about everything and not really giving any straight answers to anything. (Plus most of the guys up their were boring and had no personality.)To me it seems that they don't respect the fans anymore. ( Such as the case with all the late books.) I love MARVEL but this is starting to get ridiculous:(

[roblewmac]

1. I'm glad were not having Reed and Sue just go poof. I REAlly LIKE Black Panther and ok with Stom but I'd drop it very quickly if Marvel pulled any "Now and forever this IS the NEW FF."
2. Bendis writing Doom? does'nt sound good but Civil War Confession did'nt soud good and it was. i'm happy they plan 18 months ahead Hopefully Doom had somthing do with CW
3. I DONT care if Aunt May has to have sex with Mehpisto they really need to remask Peter Parker Id rather they killed him than have him UNMAK

[motteditor]

OK, for one, if she IS, in fact, as she seems (doubt it), she did it to herself. She wanted a new life, if she wants to have sex with near-strangers that's her business.

That's irrelevant to my argument, though. I don't think there's a chance in hell Hawkeye would what could arguably be called raping a friend. I know if I came across one of my old crushes and friends, and she had no memory of her life -- including the fact that she wasn't interested in me -- I'd feel pretty sleazy if I took advantage of her mental illness to have sex with her.

[sephiroth617]

Those Turner covers are fantastic. The Spider-Woman he drew should shut the mouths of people who say "all his females have the same face". Clearly not in this image.

All-in-all, a very exciting time to be reading Marvel. It won't stop Fanboy Bitching, but there's nothing that can unforutantely. I'm in for the ride.

[ROBRAM89]

That's irrelevant to my argument, though. I don't think there's a chance in hell Hawkeye would what could arguably be called raping a friend. I know if I came across one of my old crushes and friends, and she had no memory of her life -- including the fact that she wasn't interested in me -- I'd feel pretty sleazy if I took advantage of her mental illness to have sex with her.

Even if she actually can't remember her previous life (again, I'm not ruling out that she's faking it), it's not mental illness, it's reality manipulation. THAT SHE DID. As in she, the Scarlet Witch, the one he "arguably raped" (arguably is an understatement, I think you're the only person arguing it is).

And he's not taking advantage of anything. From what I got from it, he met her, fell for her as though she were the different person she "now thinks she is," and had sex with that new person. He wasn't using this new identity to screw Wanda Maximoff, it was between him and Whatever She's Calling Herself Now. If your wfie has two personalities, and you fall in love with both of them, and they both like you, is having sex with her no matter which person she is rape?

[ROBRAM89]

Fanboy Bitching

I love how you capitalize that. Appropriate, seeing as how it should be this board's name.

[pez dispenser]

Well, he also wrote the HoM issues where Hawkeye was going around wanting to kill everyone (though that was an alternate reality...) and the one where he goes and has sex with his amnesiac friend. Because that's how you show you're a true friend...


Yeah, but she's a HOT amnesiac friend.
I woulda tapped that.
So would you have.

[ROBRAM89]

ALTERING REALITY TO GIVE YOURSELF A NEW LIFE IS NOT AMNESIA!

[MattBrady]

after double checking, given the confusion - just posted the following:

Relationship status of Hank Pym and the Wasp? McCann: "Check <b>Mighty Avengers</b>." <i>Newsarama Note - Newsarama originally reported <b>New Avengers</b>, rather than "Mighty." We apologize for any confusion</i>

MattB

[tavella]

A fan asked about the effort to keep the books "neutral" in Civil War, with Jenkins answering about Front Line, saying "It was very difficult for me as a writer to write every scene with things being equal. The way I chose to do it was to show sort of a bias towards the anti-registration side in one of the characters in the book, and then show how she almost has a biased towards the pro-registration side, with a change in herself."

...that's a rather terrifying misunderstanding of 'neutral'. When you have two characters expousing opposite views, and one comes over to the other person's view while the first person stays with the same view, you don't have 'neutral', you are endorsing the view that is converted to. In fact, that's a classic technique of propagandistic writing: the conversion.

Which is certainly my impression of what Frontline was supposed to do, convince that the pro-reg side was right; the same conversion technique was used with both Robbie Baldwin and Sally Floyd. It's just that the execution was so ludicrous that it left a large number of readers going "WTF? Spikes on the inside?" and "WTF? Nascar and Myspace?" rather than "gosh, I guess antireg is childish and I should move to proreg as well." It didn't help that in both cases, what might be said to be the opposite of the stigmatized characters don't face the same consequences for their actions. Only Wolverine and the Atlanteans express interest in Nitro and Damage Control, and the story's final images linger sympathetically over the angst of Tony Stark, in his very plush office.

It's possible this was meant to be an Ellis-oid metarejection of the conversion, (and if I was Jenkins, I'd start claiming that at every pass rather than the embarrassment of saying he was writing Sally Floyd seriously), but examining Jenkins' other work doesn't suggest any such ambition or ability (The Return, anyone?)

[ROBRAM89]

after double checking, given the confusion - just posted the following:

Relationship status of Hank Pym and the Wasp? McCann: "Check <b>Mighty Avengers</b>." <i>Newsarama Note - Newsarama originally reported <b>New Avengers</b>, rather than "Mighty." We apologize for any confusion</i>

MattB

I thought that was weird, but you never know when those two are going to show up.

[khuxford]

Well, he also wrote the HoM issues where Hawkeye was going around wanting to kill everyone (though that was an alternate reality...) and the one where he goes and has sex with his amnesiac friend. Because that's how you show you're a true friend...

In fairness, she screwed him first (even if it was figurative). :D

[musclebound]

This was a great panel. It was so funny that my girlfriend, who does not read comics WHATSOEVER enjoyed it. It was lively, sometimes informative, and Ed Brubaker, or "Bru" as Jeph Loeb called him was HYSTERICAL. really good time.:cool:

[SpaceButler]

That image of Iron Man looking at the screens... I just kept fighting the urge to put in some text at the bottom that says "No one is safe."

As for Daredevil... I'm comfortable with Bru's books being detached from the MU proper. If anyone gets a pass, it's Brubaker.:D Hell, should make the books less dystopic and more fun.

[RedRonin]

Including Squirrel Girl's face-to-face w/ Penance... :eek: This is either going to be really great or Squirrel girl will be a crack smoking hooker by the end.

[beta-ray]

Yup. Fabian's writing half the book-- the lead feature. And I'm writing half-- a whole bunch of GLI/DEADPOOL shorts... Including Squirrel Girl's face-to-face w/ Penance... :eek:

What else can I say but DAN SLOTT IS DA MAN! :D

[JLAJRC]

What does the Hulk have to "gain"? He's on a quest for bloody vengeance, and allying with Black Bolt essentially means he can set aside one-fourth of it just to get to the other three; if he can set aside his hatred of Black Bolt, there's no reason he can't do it for Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, and Doctor Strange.

You stated the motive right there, vengeance. Maybe BB can give the Hulk valuable info on the various members and items (can you imagine the Hulk with the Infinity Gems?:eek: ) to help him gain that vengeance. In exchange, Hulk will leave BB and the Inhumans alone. Plus, BB would get his revenge on Earth for the terrigan mists. Heck, after going after the other members, he can betray BB of he wanted too.

[deworde]

Suddenly Stark shows a soul? Perhaps he could have thought about this before he threw people into the life-sucking Negative Zone, or got Bill Foster killed or got Cap killed... This is the problem with saying Stark's just following the law. He apparently decides who's worth hounding to death and who's not based on his whims.


Can I just counter? They dumped unregistered vigilantes in the Neg Zone prison during the war, because otherwise Cap would have busted them out. Now it's people like Deathstrike, who kills little kids.
Bill Foster attacked Clor. Giant-Man vs. Thor. Not a smart tactic. The fact that Clor malfunctioned is an accident, it's not like Tony went to Clor, "Now, the tall black guy? Kill 'im!" And Cap was killed by the Red Skull. The Red Skull.
Now the war's over, certain people who Stark knows are safe may be "overlooked" as far as possible. It's not like DD appeared on TV specifically to dismiss the act, or is leading a rebel group. It's been made quite clear that if Stark doesn't look like he's making an effort, they'll put Norman Osborn or someone in charge, like they did with the 'Bolts.

[dlfurman]

Sigh.

Nova fights Pennance.

Two friends, who havent seen each other in sometime, both suffering trauma, fight instead of talk.

Sigh.

[motteditor]

Can I just counter?

Sure, that's why we're all here. : )


Bill Foster attacked Clor. Giant-Man vs. Thor. Not a smart tactic. The fact that Clor malfunctioned is an accident, it's not like Tony went to Clor, "Now, the tall black guy? Kill 'im!"

But I think that misses the crux of the entire thing. Tony's supposedly fighting because he wants everyone to be registered and trained so there aren't any more disasters. So what's one of the very first things he does? Releases a clone who goes out and kills someone. If he can't even make sure his own creations aren't going to be disasters, how is he going to make sure other people aren't. Much less, why should anyone trust him to do so when the first thing he did could have been as big a disaster as what Nitro did?

Now the war's over, certain people who Stark knows are safe may be "overlooked" as far as possible. It's not like DD appeared on TV specifically to dismiss the act, or is leading a rebel group.

And I still don't think it makes sense. Stark knew Cap was safe. He and his group were too busy stopping him from helping people who are getting mugged and raped and whatnot while the bad guys were allowed to go free. That's the problem with the story -- it still just makes no sense that Stark decided going after Captain fricking America was the most important thing for him to do.

And if it weren't for Stark, Cap never would have been effectively hand delivered to the Red Skull.

[deworde]

But I think that misses the crux of the entire thing. Tony's supposedly fighting because he wants everyone to be registered and trained so there aren't any more disasters. So what's one of the very first things he does? Releases a clone who goes out and kills someone. If he can't even make sure his own creations aren't going to be disasters, how is he going to make sure other people aren't. Much less, why should anyone trust him to do so when the first thing he did could have been as big a disaster as what Nitro did?

As big a disaster? It's not like Thor was aiming at a schoolbus. It wasn't a good plan, but they clearly assumed that Clor would have Thor's ethics. I just feel that blaming Tony completely for the accident isn't entirely fair. And let's face it, they clearly neutered Clor the next time he was released.


And I still don't think it makes sense. Stark knew Cap was safe. He and his group were too busy stopping him from helping people who are getting mugged and raped and whatnot while the bad guys were allowed to go free. That's the problem with the story -- it still just makes no sense that Stark decided going after Captain fricking America was the most important thing for him to do.

Well, except Cap was also busting open prison vans and plotting with the Kingpin. As Tony pointed out in the crossover (the first really good pro-reg book), without Cap the anti-reg forces would fall apart. Without Daredevil... Not a lot.
Which sounds more plausible: "Daredevil is low priority, he's localised to Hell's Kitchen, a street hero, and he's a symbol for anti-reg heroes. Let's deal with Cage and Spidey first."
Or: "Cap is low priority, he's mobile, a trained guerilla fighter, and he's not a symbol for anti-reg heroes. Let's deal with Hulkling first."?

And the registered heroes were saving people, the crime rate was actually falling.

And if it weren't for Stark, Cap never would have been effectively hand delivered to the Red Skull.

No. Instead, Agent 13 would have shot him in the face after a date or on a mission.

[SpaceButler]

Yeah! Come on, guys, it's not like Tony had anyone murdered to start a war or anything! :rolleyes:

[CaptainCanad]

Yeah! Come on, guys, it's not like Tony had anyone murdered to start a war or anything! :rolleyes:
Hey, it was only to ALMOST start a war.;)

[ME5]

Hello.

To motteditor: A few things:

1--Just because you receive training doesn't preclude mistakes. Soldiers and police officers are trained and still make mistakes. The idea with the registration is that, with training, mistakes are less likely. Even Tony, Reed, and Hank are human, so they can not completely erase all possible mistakes. Clor was a weapon that malfunctioned. Ask people in the armed forces if they have ever had a weapon malfunction when it goes into combat. Heck, ask the soldiers who first used the M-16 in combat situations! You want to hear about a new weapon that had problems! Keep in mind, if Black Goliath had not been engaging in armed insurrection, he wouldn't have had the new weapon aimed at him to begin with. If a crook gets shot by a police officer testing a new taser, and it kills him due to a design flaw, the officer isn't charged, the weapon simply goes back to the drawing board to be fixed...and that is what happened with Clor.

2--Cap was not "safe", he was the leader of an armed and powerful group of individuals who put themselves above the law and made themselves a force that could act contrary to the law, the government, and the apparent will of the people. Cap was the man in charge of a group determined to act as they felt was right regardless of the consequences. Cap was attacking actual officers of the law, representatives of the government of the USA, in order to free and recruit other members for his army. Never mind the actual danger Cap could become if left to do what he wanted unchecked, imagine the problem he causes for the USA if other groups of individuals decide they want to emulate his actions, but don't have his particular sense of morality? The ideal his rebellion espoused may have been based in altruism, but he went about doing it in the wrong way, and the example it set for others was a true threat to democracy in the USA. The second he decided to lead an armed rebellion against a law that every other citizen in the USA must follow simply because he has the power to do what many other people can not do, is a very dangerous idea to allow to fester if you want a democracy to survive.

3--Brubaker used Cap's arrest because it was convenient. As stated, Sharon could have just as easily shot him in bed or any other situation that Brubaker wanted to use. Tony is not at fault, the Red Skull and his allies are. Tony is just your scapegoat.

Keep fighting the good fight, Mott.

Be Well...:)

[Terram]

Yeah! Come on, guys, it's not like Tony had anyone murdered to start a war or anything! :rolleyes: Who was murdered?

[motteditor]

As big a disaster? It's not like Thor was aiming at a schoolbus. It wasn't a good plan, but they clearly assumed that Clor would have Thor's ethics. I just feel that blaming Tony completely for the accident isn't entirely fair. And let's face it, they clearly neutered Clor the next time he was released.

Don't forget, it wasn't just Bill Foster. Clor would have kept on killing if Sue Storm hadn't protected the heroes. And if he was doing that there, how do we know he wouldn't have attacked a bunch of school kids or civilians if the battle hadn't been in an abandoned factory? Clearly, Tony didn't take proper precautions. Which wouldn't be such a damning point, if his whole crusade wasn't supposed to be about making heroes more responsible.

[SpaceButler]

Who was murdered?

Atlantean ambassador in Frontline.

[Purplestain]

But isn't the mere act of of cloning one of your friends treading kind of shaky moral territory? Didn't frankenstein teach us the horror that can come of doing things like that? if someone else created a thor clone that accidentally went crazy and blew a hole through Goliath, wouldn't he be automatically be dubbed a mad scientist and join the legion of others that preceded him? He'd be a freaking villain. Cloning heroes, and people that used to be a good friend of yours isn't the act of a hero. No matter what the thor clone did, the very act of playing god like that is questionable in the first place.

[ME5]

Hello.

To Motteditor: See my point #1 in the post above yours. That should address what you are saying.

Now, I have to say, I did not like your "rape" comment from earlier in the discussion. I re-read NA #26. There is no "rape". Wanda Maximoff appears to be quite the articulate, intelligent young woman who comes on to Clint. She seems to have all of her faculties and clearly initiates the physical contact. There is no way that Clint could be guilty of rape, and I was distressed to see you toss that out there. I know you hate NA, and dislike what Bendis has done, but to try and accuse him of writing a rape scene into a comic where there isn't one just seems like you are trying to paint him in a seriously negative light to discredit Bendis. It bothered me, but I decided to research the issue more clearly before commenting. It still seems very wrong and inappropriate.

In any case,

Be Well...:)

[motteditor]

Avengers 200 wasn't intended to be a rape either.

I'm just saying if someone my sister didn't like came and took advantage of her, I'd have serious issues with them. The fact that's what Hawkeye would do with someone who was his friend -- seems completely out of character to me. After all, I seem to recall his wife having being drugged (and basically made amnesiac) and taken advantage of. The only difference here is Hawkeye didn't cause the amnesia.

[ME5]

Hello.

To motteditor: Correct, when we first read Avengers #200 it was not a rape. We learned more information later that made it one. When we first heard Ms. Marvel say Cap was alive, people felt Marvel screwed up, and then we saw she planted that to set up a trap in New Avengers. The idea here being that we should wait to see the story unfold before making snap judgments.

You assert that Hawkeye took advantage of Wanda. Did you ever think that Wanda's powers not only brought Clint back to life, erased her memories of being a super hero, and her powers, but also connected her and Clint? It is possible that she loved him and wanted him to be with her, and her powers tried to be accommodating to her subconscious desire? There is a lot of story left to be told, so let's see where it goes. The man-suit for Ronin made perfect sense when it was explained recently;Ms. Marvel's deliberate use of disinformation made perfect sense in an issue of NA;we learned retroactively that Carol was raped in Avengers #200;etc... This is why stories that are ongoing shouldn't be snap attacked.

Clint not only didn't cause the amnesia, he didn't make the first move. He had a full grown woman who was very articulate come on to him...and he responded in kind. Poor judgment on his part? Maybe. Rape? Not under any category of law or morality.

Be Well...:)