THE Q: DOES DEATH MATTER? [Archive]

MattBrady

03-14-2007, 10:39 AM

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/general/TheQ/2k7death.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/general/TheQ/2k7death_t.jpg" border="0" align="right"></a>by Vaneta Rogers

It's time again for The Q, a series of articles where we ask one question to a handful of creators. Concentrating on writers in particular, this month's question explores the issue of how effective a character's death can really be in the world of comic books.

The Q this time – a timely one: Does the emotional impact of a character's death still have value in the comic book writer's toolbox? Or have the industry traditions of culling and resurrection changed the way this part of a hero's story is utilized by writers and/or perceived by readers?

Mike Carey (X-Men, Crossing Midnight, God Save the Queen): I think it depends on context, like any other story element. If it's obvious that the death is just a blip and the character is going to come back, then I'd say it has no impact at all. But if it's made to seem real and irrevocable, it can still have power -- even if it's reversed later. As an example of a death being well used within a story context, I'd offer the way Peter David has Siryn react to Banshee's death. Her refusal to believe in it -- her conviction that he'll come back, like Jean Grey and Colossus and all the other supposedly dead X-Men -- is actually very poignant and painful to watch. It turns a cliché into something very human and believable and moving.

But yeah, I'd be the first to admit that a "revolving door" attitude to characters' deaths has bedeviled the industry for the past two decades -- and the law of diminishing returns has kicked in with a vengeance. What's depressing is when the resurrection isn't even done with any kind of style or conviction and doesn't carry any weight. Donne said "every man's death diminishes me." He could have added "especially if there's some lame-ass deus ex machina twist and he comes back again a year later."

Adam Beechen (Robin, Countdown, Teen Titans): It absolutely has value -- if handled properly. Fans can spot a gratuitous "stunt death" a mile away. And because there've been so many character deaths in the last twenty years, fans are a little wary of them. So a character death has to have emotional resonance to the story the writer's trying to tell in more than just the short-term. It can't just be forgotten the next month. It also depends on how well the character has been portrayed over his or her appearances. Death means much more to a reader if he or she is emotionally invested in the character. Take the death of Superboy and how it relates to the Teen Titans. Geoff Johns and the artists he worked with did a tremendous job of building a character readers could care about. Now that that character is gone, he's still being felt in the book months after it happened...and that'll continue to be the case, because Superboy was an integral part of those characters' lives, and with the way they're structured, he'll continue to be, in memory.

Chris Gage (Union Jack, Annihilation: Conquest -- Quasar, StormWatch PHD): A good story is a good story. If death is used as a cheap stunt, or a way of grabbing attention, or because the creative team has simply run out of ideas, the readers sense it and generally reject it. But if it's done well, it can definitely still have value, even if the "dead" character returns one or five or forty years down the line. If it's done well, it works; if it's not, it doesn't. Simple as that.

Jimmy Palmiotti (Heroes for Hire, Jonah Hex, Countdown, Friday the 13th): Evidently a character’s death does have an impact if the character is a mainstream figure that has been around for years and people are familiar with him outside the world of comics. If it is not, then usually its just a storytelling device, I would hope. For me, I try not to kill any character unless it is going to make an impact on the world and others around them. That said, I have nuked cities and blown up planets, but those people were irritating and I was doing the universe a favor. In comics, every character should have the nickname “Lazarus” because they all come back. Each and every one of them…sales dictate these resurrections. Personally, I like it better when characters come out of the closet, get pregnant or have cancer and beat it. It's more inspiring to me.

Tony Bedard (Exiles, Countdown, JSA: Classified): Death is such a fundamental aspect of life that it will always have dramatic value. If a death has no impact, it's because it was poorly told, not because other characters have died in other stories. Now, the way other character deaths have been portrayed in previous stories might have some influence on how you tell your story, if only so you don't copy something that's already been done, but a million lame stories won't stop a writer from trying to tell a good one. A million crass, marketing-driven character deaths won't stop you from believing you can kill off your own character in a poignant, impactful manner.

David Hine (Silent War, Spawn, Son of M): Case in point: The Death of Captain America. Although Ed Brubaker made a sterling attempt at writing a moving story about the death of Marvel's best-loved character, I found myself contemplating, like everyone else, whether he was really dead and if so how many months would pass before he was resurrected. I even found thoughts of Life Model Decoys and clones drifting around in my head. Now it may be that Steve Rogers will remain dead. But the impact of his death is already irreparably diminished by that tradition of resurrection.

I recently wrote a What If...? story where I got to kill off Jean Grey for the umpteenth time. In my version of Deadly Genesis, Vulcan is responsible for her death and his punishment is to relive the death of Jean Grey and her fellow X-Men over and over. Vulcan's final monologue sums up my feelings about the cycle of death and re-birth in superhero comics: "But they overlooked something. It gets easier. Every time it hurts a little less...I've watched them die two hundred and seventy-three times. How many times do you have to see someone die before you feel nothing at all?"

Sean McKeever (Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, Spider-Man Family, Countdown): Absolutely, death still has weight, but it's all in the approach. As long as I'm getting into the characters' hearts and minds and telling honest stories from there, and as long as that story is compelling in some way, then thoughts of potential/inevitable resurrection shouldn't matter.

Speaking to the most recent big death in comics, I can't wait to see what the writer of that series does next because he's a master of character-driven storytelling.

Justin Gray (Heroes for Hire, Jonah Hex, Countdown, Friday the 13th): The emotional impact of the comic book death, particularly that of a high profile superhero, serves as a short-term plot device, and given the large number of resurrected characters throughout both DC and Marvel’s publication histories I don’t believe the fans truly expect anyone to stay dead indefinitely. Death essentially means placing a character on the shelf for a period of time until either a specific trend reappears that favors that character or until their “resurrection” serves as a new plot device. The general rule is that a good story justifies any alteration of a serialized character’s rebirth or death. At the core of these events are two things, a genuine love of the characters and the financial rewards derived from life and death in the superhero world.

whitemarkd

03-14-2007, 10:44 AM

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).

Kevin T. Brown

03-14-2007, 10:46 AM

SeamusMcClernan

03-14-2007, 10:47 AM

...but several years ago I asked Dave Cockrum whether or not he was upset at Colossus being killed-off, and his reply was; "No. In the Marvel Universe, death is only for Ben Parker and Bucky Barnes."

vbartilucci

03-14-2007, 10:47 AM

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).
That may be because there's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get to COME back, thus making the death truly sad.

SSK17

03-14-2007, 10:52 AM

That may be because there's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get to COME back, thus making the death truly sad.

Exactly, I thought it was a pretty cool dynamic that got snuffed out...and there is the overwhelming feeling that they won't be coming back...unless Adam frees faust and Neron from Fates tower and uses them to bring Isis and Osiris back.

whitemarkd

03-14-2007, 10:52 AM

That may be because there's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get to COME back, thus making the death truly sad.
Unless Black Adam finds Ralph Dibny and asks him for resurrection tips...

EDIT: Oops, looks like SSK17 beat me to it!

BlueThunderArmy

03-14-2007, 10:54 AM

I largely agree with Mr Carey's statements. I would add that it's possibly the nature of ongoing serialised stories, such as comics and soap operas, that any change in the status quo is reversable, particularly in that the reversal can be seen as another shift in status quo. It's frustrating to me in the sense that, any time a major story (death/disfigurement/going crazy) is overturned, it makes me wonder why I bother. If Hal Jordan's actions during 'Emerald Twilight' can be explained away with a giant yellow dinosaur, and even a character like Colossus can return from the valley of death, then what's the point of reading stories at all, or telling them? That doesn't mean that the 'initial event' or the 'returning event' were poorly done (with allowance for individual opinion) but the cumulative effect is a sourness that's hard to scrub away.

I've come rather close to quitting comics a few times over this, not in a spectacular and public I'M DROPPING ALL MY MARVEL/DC BOOKS AND NEVER COMING BACK kind of way, but just a quiet 'I'm out' fashion. In the end, though, I decided I enjoy comics enough to put up with the occasional disappointment and ridiculous back-and-forth of characterisation. Really, I can't imagine cutting out comics from my life, certainly not the Vertigo and indie series I love, and not the excitement of monthly superheroes, either. I'm posting on Newsarama, after all, I'm pretty sure I'm in the game for good.

jccalhoun

03-14-2007, 10:57 AM

The Flash XS5

03-14-2007, 10:59 AM

...but several years ago I asked Dave Cockrum whether or not he was upset at Colossus being killed-off, and his reply was; "No. In the Marvel Universe, death is only for Ben Parker and Bucky Barnes."

He was half right. Or if you're a reader of Friendly Neighborhood Spider-man, he's 1/3 right.

whitemarkd

03-14-2007, 11:00 AM

Once again the Legion for the win.
Throughout the history of the Legion of Superheroes death has always been meaningful and permanent with the exception of Lightening Lad (and even in that case from the start they always said "I don't believe he's dead.).
Except for reboots - I've never gotten used to having the original Invisible Kid back...

(The current one is the same as the Silver Age one, right? Lyle Norg? That's just off the top of my head - no time to check Wikipedia right now, sorry.)

Avantre

03-14-2007, 11:09 AM

Gold responses from Carey ('He could have added "especially if there's some lame-ass deus ex machina twist and he comes back again a year later."') and Palmiotti ('That said, I have nuked cities and blown up planets, but those people were irritating and I was doing the universe a favor.')

It's not surprising that Beechan would be positive on the impact of deaths, what with a death advertised for the Titans comic in a couple of months. He'd have been in a bit of a pickle if he'd said they had no meaning.

Comic deaths have no meaning for me anymore - even the ones I'd thought to be permanent have been retconed or sidestepped (Bucky and Captain Mar-vell). I'm more likely to care if someone writes a character I like badly or out-of-character, then I would if they killed them off.

supergp

03-14-2007, 11:10 AM

AirDave817

03-14-2007, 11:14 AM

Mike Carey (X-Men, Crossing Midnight, God Save the Queen):
Donne said "every man's death diminishes me." He could have added "especially if there's some lame-ass deus ex machina twist and he comes back again a year later."

Tony Bedard (Exiles, Countdown, JSA: Classified): Death is such a fundamental aspect of life that it will always have dramatic value. If a death has no impact, it's because it was poorly told, not because other characters have died in other stories. Now, the way other character deaths have been portrayed in previous stories might have some influence on how you tell your story, if only so you don't copy something that's already been done, but a million lame stories won't stop a writer from trying to tell a good one. A million crass, marketing-driven character deaths won't stop you from believing you can kill off your own character in a poignant, impactful manner.

David Hine (Silent War, Spawn, Son of M): Case in point: The Death of Captain America. Although Ed Brubaker made a sterling attempt at writing a moving story about the death of Marvel's best-loved character, I found myself contemplating, like everyone else, whether he was really dead and if so how many months would pass before he was resurrected. I

I recently wrote a What If...? story where I got to kill off Jean Grey for the umpteenth time. In my version of Deadly Genesis, Vulcan is responsible for her death and his punishment is to relive the death of Jean Grey and her fellow X-Men over and over. Vulcan's final monologue sums up my feelings about the cycle of death and re-birth in superhero comics: "But they overlooked something. It gets easier. Every time it hurts a little less...I've watched them die two hundred and seventy-three times. How many times do you have to see someone die before you feel nothing at all?"

... ...

As they would say on Lost, "Amen, brother."

jonnynyc

03-14-2007, 11:14 AM

Adam Beechen sounds like he is kissing up to Geoff Johns a little.
He is already co-writing the book, he can relax a bit, no?
Superboy died for the worst reasons:
Lawsuits and to fill the "New Flash" & "Dead Super-Kid" quota of a CRISIS
I don't feel like they deserve praised heaped on them for that

Cheech-Daddy

03-14-2007, 11:18 AM

This is one of the reasons I prefer the Ultimate Marvel U to the 616; in the Ultimate rendition, death feels like it has weight still. This is partially because they don't bring people back (as a rule), but also partially because they've gone to great lengths to show how it affects characters. When Ultimate Beast dies, Ultimate Storm flips out more than a little.

I LOVE the Ultimate books. I think a lot of what you're talking about comes from a lack of expectations in a young universe. the characters a rea alittle different and the stories are sometimes of a differnt style, so you don't think, "Oh, Beast will be back in a year." I haven't read it yet, because all my Ultimate books are trades, but I want to see how Xavier dies and see about that one. I don't know how he'll stay dead. I haven't been terribly impressed by Kirman's UXM so far, but we'll so how it turns out.

Edit: I do hope that Captain America stays dead for a good long while. Mar-Vel was dead for over ten years. If they do something cool with the character, then I'll be cool with them bringing him back for this new generation of readers, just like I won't be terribly pissed off if they resurrect Steve Rogers for my son to read about in 10-15 years.

I will, however, be mighty upset if he comes back immediately, although it doesn't look like that's going to happen, to me at least.

Hand213

03-14-2007, 11:21 AM

I think there are two key things to keep in mind in a discussion like this:

1) How something is done is often more important than what is done. Most of the authors above are pointing to this idea. Fans (and I include myself here) tend to react to the "what" well before (and sometimes without considering) the "how." When news of Cap's death broke, a lot of people on these boards were in an uproar; a significant number of them changed their opinion after reading the actual story. This is not to say that how a death is done totally eclipses the repercussions of the death itself, but if we're evaluating the technique, the means has to carry more weight than the end. This is storytelling, not fact-collecting; losing sight of the artistry by focusing only on the result hurts the whole industry. Anyone can come up with ideas (well, not ANYone, but you know what I mean); we value these people, the writers, because they can make amorphous, abstract, general ideas into detailed, specific, evocative stories.

2) Closely related to #1, I think we have to simply accept the fact that death is another tool in the comic book writer's arsenal. As such, it has different associations/expectations than death in the real world. Like in most things (as Civil War really brought to the forefront), there's a very strangely defined line between the reality of our comics and the reality of our lives. We want them to mirror each other in some ways; we want them to contradict each other in other ways. (Really, this is no different than any type of fiction, right? We want stories that open up something with which we're not familiar, something strange and new, but we want it to be "realistic" and "relatable" (whatever that means).) So, I think death in comics has just become another one of those aspects. If we don't think of it as having some intrinsic "shock value," maybe we won't get so upset when it is seemingly used to that effect.

Ok - I've rambled too much.

haldo

03-14-2007, 11:22 AM

garou12

03-14-2007, 11:25 AM

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).
Isis'death is going to resonate alot more because people can identify with the idea of a lost love...especially how that love brought alot of inner peace and calm into the relationship...I truly feel bad for Black Adam right now because of the pain he's going thru of being alone again and being robbed of his chance at peace and happiness...Him and Ralph have alot in common and should talk...IF they do bring Isis back i hope they do it in a meaningful way so it doesn't cheapen the impact of her death...

KoozyK

03-14-2007, 11:27 AM

It gets easier. Every time it hurts a little less...I've watched them die two hundred and seventy-three times. How many times do you have to see someone die before you feel nothing at all?

that sums up my opinion of death. the only effect of steve's death has on me is that i won't see him in the book anymore, but rather, his supporting cast.

we'll see how this plays out.

garou12

03-14-2007, 11:27 AM

One more thing...with all the death that four horsemen caused in Kahndaqe I'm surprised the Spectre himself didn't appear to render judgement on them :confused:

weaselwelch

03-14-2007, 11:41 AM

Edit: I do hope that Captain America stays dead for a good long while. Mar-Vel was dead for over ten years. If they do something cool with the character, then I'll be cool with them bringing him back for this new generation of readers, just like I won't be terribly pissed off if they resurrect Steve Rogers for my son to read about in 10-15 years.

I will, however, be mighty upset if he comes back immediately, although it doesn't look like that's going to happen, to me at least.
I believe in several interviews(or maybe it was a Joe Friday) that it was said the Steve Rogers isn't dead. I think they just plan on some else being Cap for awhile.

On a side note. It was funny my LCS sold out of Captain America #25 in 2 hours(i've heard that some retailers were selling the issue for like $10). And the phone was ringing off the hook for people asking if they had a copy. Now the owner said the Marvel over printed #25 but didn't say anything to retailers until after it was released. and Diamond would be able to refill something like 95% of orders.

I just wonder how many non comic book readers bought that issue thinking, like with the death of Superman issue that they have a major collectable. SOme even thinking that down the road the can resell it for big bucks. But like the death of Superman issue they will disappointed.

DaVeO

03-14-2007, 11:44 AM

The list of gresat characters that have died and not been resurected is growing short. We can now scratch Captain Mar-vell off the list. Thor will be returning soon. I really hope that Steve Rogers stays deceased, but I know he won't. Marvel just cannot keep iconic (or X-Men) characters dead. DC is guilty too, what with Green Arrow and Green Lanterns (Hal Jordan, Kilowog, Arisa)
However, with Ollie and Hal they were well told come backs. Mar-vell? Not even close. Marvel dropped the ball on that one big time. Why not have him come back during Annihilation Conquest?

Anyhow, I just re-read Warren Ellis's run on Authority. An excellent portrayal of a death that has not been revived was Jenny Sparks. Out of all the characters I believe she was the one readers thought least likely expendable. But when her time came it was handed in a very classy way.

This is why I think legacies are an excellent device. Unfortunatly, they are not always so lovingly embraced. The Atom and Firestorm have both been controversial. However, Tim Drake as been hugely popular as have all the members of the Justice Society.
It's a little confusing to try and figure out what makes a hero popular. The person or the mask or both?

1603

03-14-2007, 11:48 AM

I think death in comics can still have shock, and does. It is still important at the time it happens because it momentarily changes the status quo of the books. It still brings out real emotions in readers and brings emotion to characters.

And obviously, none of it is final, nor can it really be final when dealing with any type of main (or semi-main) character. There will always be more story possibilities with a character and fans will want to see them again. And their rise from the dead can always be interesting.

Cheech-Daddy

03-14-2007, 11:49 AM

I believe in several interviews(or maybe it was a Joe Friday) that it was said the Steve Rogers isn't dead. I think they just plan on some else being Cap for awhile.

Hmm... Everything I've read, and I have read a LOT has everyone (Joe Q included) assuring everyone that he is, in fact, dead. SO much that the next issue of Cap features his autopsy. Looks like Carol is just a lying conniving bitchface, after all.

Moonbeam

03-14-2007, 11:49 AM

Isis'death is going to resonate alot more because people can identify with the idea of a lost love...especially how that love brought alot of inner peace and calm into the relationship...I truly feel bad for Black Adam right now because of the pain he's going thru of being alone again and being robbed of his chance at peace and happiness..

What you're saying is that readers of 52 are feeling for Isis and Osiris because we know how other characters in the story feel and will react -- in particular, Black Adam.

I think that's the point that Adam Beechen was trying to make and I agree with it. Mike Carey also touched upon it with his praise of X-Factor's Siryn story. Like Beechen said, we saw and felt the Teen Titans cry over Superboy's death, and like you are saying, we know we will see Black Adam react to the death of his family. We see the impact on other characters, so we can feel the impact ourselves.

After reading all the creators' opinions and thinking about it, I think the emotional power of a character's death is only as impactful on us as readers as it is on the characters in the stories we read. Through their emotional response, we can also respond.

I think that's why the Disassembled deaths and Firestorm's death felt so hollow to me and so many others. Nobody within the story seemed to care very much that they died. Yet contrast that with Sue Dibney's death in Identity Crisis #1. Her death was so powerful -- the funeral scene forced us to grieve for Sue, and I rarely hear anyone say they didn't feel a strong sadness about her death while reading that scene. And the story continued to explore the reaction to her death in depth. That's why her death had impact.

And I think that's where Marvel is being smart in giving Jeph Loeb the chance to really explore the reaction to Captain America's death by other characters.

If we read the emotional impact on others, then we feel the emotional impact on ourselves, whether we think the character will be back next year or not. And if those stories of reaction are told well, death can still be a very powerful tool.

- Vaneta

1603

03-14-2007, 11:50 AM

I just wonder how many non comic book readers bought that issue thinking, like with the death of Superman issue that they have a major collectable. SOme even thinking that down the road the can resell it for big bucks. But like the death of Superman issue they will disappointed.

I saw at least three people come in the store I go to in the time I was there looking for the speculation dollar. And by the time I was there, it was later Thursday night.

Kamandi2

03-14-2007, 11:52 AM

That may be because there's a pretty slim chance they'll actually get to COME back, thus making the death truly sad.

For Osiris, maybe. I see Isis back within a year. After all, she is the Egyptian goddes of magic, life and rebirth.

Lord Ruthven

03-14-2007, 11:59 AM

I believe in several interviews(or maybe it was a Joe Friday) that it was said the Steve Rogers isn't dead. I think they just plan on some else being Cap for awhile.

On a side note. It was funny my LCS sold out of Captain America #25 in 2 hours(i've heard that some retailers were selling the issue for like $10).

Steve Rogers is dead. They were referring to Ms. Marvels' comments about Steve not really being dead, and how that was just misdirection or something.

As for retailers charging over the odds on Captain America #25... one of the LCS near me received their copies late (Tuesday 13th instead of the previous Thursday) and having seen the hype surrounding the issue immediately put them straight on the shelf at £19.99 each (that's $38.65)!!! :eek:
Yes they are just the regular issues, not gold plated diamond encrusted variants...

But it's okay, he offers standing order customers 5% discount!

jmcl89

03-14-2007, 12:01 PM

One more thing...with all the death that four horsemen caused in Kahndaqe I'm surprised the Spectre himself didn't appear to render judgement on them :confused:

The Spectre really isn't too good at his job. He's been running around Gotham for months now, but never bothers to go after the Joker, for example :)

Hoylus

03-14-2007, 12:02 PM

It's a little confusing to try and figure out what makes a hero popular. The person or the mask or both?

I think the answer is - the stories!

anyone in a captain america mask could become popular if the story is handled well.

I think that more character's should stay dead and fans be forced to come to terms with those deaths. Legacy is the way to go!

Of course, when your character is called Phoenix - it fits to have a ressurection now and again!

PaxHouse

03-14-2007, 12:02 PM

Hmm... Everything I've read, and I have read a LOT has everyone (Joe Q included) assuring everyone that he is, in fact, dead. SO much that the next issue of Cap features his autopsy. Looks like Carol is just a lying conniving bitchface, after all.

Now, now.....don't presume that just because Carol was telling Spider-Woman that Cap's alive doesn't automatically make her a liar....

After all, it might've been {or more likely} possible that Carol could have been misinformed {and it could've been delibriantly} by those that wanted to keep Cap's death a secret.....

And since we all know who's now in charge of SHIELD.....:cool:

DarkNomis

03-14-2007, 12:08 PM

The "death" of Super Heores dying having any real relavence "died" when Marvel resurrected Jean Grey. Prior to that when you died you stayed dead.

Ma and Pa Kent, Invisible Boy, Ferro lad, Captain Stacey, Gwen Stacey, Thunderbird, Harry Osborn, Captain Marvel.

Every since they "resurrected" Jean, all bets are off when a hero dies and it's only a matter of time that he or she will stay dead, and it has lessened the impact of it.

I'll never forgive Marvel for that. Not because they killed Jean, but for bringing her back and making all the emotional impact of such a classic epic into a farce.

Cheech-Daddy

03-14-2007, 12:16 PM

What you're saying is that readers of 52 are feeling for Isis and Osiris because we know how other characters in the story feel and will react -- in particular, Black Adam.

See? This is what I'm talking about. I'm more of a Marvel guy, so I could care less about Isis (not a slap, just an opinion), but this is why I couldn't understand why people got so up in arms over Cap dying. I'm looking forward to seeing how everyone else react in the main Cap book,but especially in the Fallen Son mini. The death can be fleeting, but I tihnk it's the reactions that make it seem real.

Hawkeye and the rest of the Disassembled deaths were in the middle of all this chaos, so the characters were never given a proper chance to mourn immeediately following their deatsh. Killing Cap after Civil War was a good move and makes these types of opportunities possible.

Good form, Marvel. Good form.

STL

03-14-2007, 12:17 PM

Not much of a fan of David Hine but I remember that line. It was a good one. Death's don't matter to me anymore. They only make me wonder when Ill see the character return and how the other characters in the story will respond.

I just get annoyed more than anything else and hope there better be a darn good story out of it. And more often than not, there isn't.

Cheech-Daddy

03-14-2007, 12:19 PM

Steve Rogers is dead. They were referring to Ms. Marvels' comments about Steve not really being dead, and how that was just misdirection or something.

As for retailers charging over the odds on Captain America #25... one of the LCS near me received their copies late (Tuesday 13th instead of the previous Thursday) and having seen the hype surrounding the issue immediately put them straight on the shelf at £19.99 each (that's $38.65)!!! :eek:
Yes they are just the regular issues, not gold plated diamond encrusted variants...

But it's okay, he offers standing order customers 5% discount!

See? I think that is really and truly wrong. It pisses me off when I have to pay a premium price the following month for a first print book (hence, waiting for the trade on Spider-Man: Reign). there is no WAY I would pay any more than cover price for a book that came out the day before, especially since a second printing was a given before they announced the overprint in the first place.

DarkNomis

03-14-2007, 12:26 PM

My biggest beef with killing off heroes and eventually bringing them back is that it's a such A crutch for the publishers to sell more comics and get more mainstream media publicity.

Not that I'm against comics geting more media attention, far from it, the more mainstream media about comics the better, but it shuldn't be something to constanly keep falling back on just to get on the radar or get a buzz going about the character.

How about some constant good storytelling that's relevant in the character life which is why I had no problem with Spidey's umasking last year.

Lord Ruthven

03-14-2007, 12:35 PM

See? I think that is really and truly wrong. It pisses me off when I have to pay a premium price the following month for a first print book (hence, waiting for the trade on Spider-Man: Reign). there is no WAY I would pay any more than cover price for a book that came out the day before, especially since a second printing was a given before they announced the overprint in the first place.

I absolutely agree. That LCS used to be where I picked up my comics. Really glad I switched a few weeks back. Personally I hope they won't be able to sell any of the overpriced issues, it may deter them from trying to rip customers off in future.

The Spectre really isn't too good at his job. He's been running around Gotham for months now, but never bothers to go after the Joker, for example

Ah but the Joker hasn't been running around Gotham since The Spectre bonded with Crispus Allen. He's been locked up in Arkham having reconstruction to his mind and face. It's also possible that The Spectre won't/can't judge him due to the Jokers' mental instability - much like how murderers with mental health conditions can't be given the death penalty?

Wilson 3d

03-14-2007, 12:35 PM

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).

shoot man - I had not read that one yet.

Jimmy Palmiotti

03-14-2007, 12:40 PM

Steve Rogers is dead. They were referring to Ms. Marvels' comments about Steve not really being dead, and how that was just misdirection or something.

As for retailers charging over the odds on Captain America #25... one of the LCS near me received their copies late (Tuesday 13th instead of the previous Thursday) and having seen the hype surrounding the issue immediately put them straight on the shelf at £19.99 each (that's $38.65)!!! :eek:
Yes they are just the regular issues, not gold plated diamond encrusted variants...

But it's okay, he offers standing order customers 5% discount!

tell them to wait for the trade or second printing. thats a crime...and remember, a year or two from now it will be worth only a quarter of that price. save your money and buy some indys.

kitty_tc

03-14-2007, 12:41 PM

What seems to be getting ignored here is the fact that heroic stories have always included an element of death and rebirth, from the time of Beowulf on to the current day. This is so prevalent and so much an essential part of the genre that Joseph Campbell, in his famous studies of the mythic heroic cycle, declared the "death-underworld-return" concept to be a requirement for any story that follows the classic formula.

Does anyone really think that superheroes are not the modern day equivalents of Beowulf and Gilgamesh and Heracles and every other classic heroic epic? Hell, some of those classic mythical heroes are still appearing in superhero stories today. It's the same thing, a storytelling tradition that has existed for all of recorded human memory. Superheroes are just the latest iteration of an idea as old as we are.

Mythic heroes are supposed to die, conquer death, and return. It's an integral part of the genre. Comic books didn't screw up by making their heroes die and come back, people screwed up by ever expecting otherwise.

SSK17

03-14-2007, 12:47 PM

Ah but the Joker hasn't been running around Gotham since The Spectre bonded with Crispus Allen. He's been locked up in Arkham having reconstruction to his mind and face. It's also possible that The Spectre won't/can't judge him due to the Jokers' mental instability - much like how murderers with mental health conditions can't be given the death penalty?

right after IC the Spectre gave Crispus a year to decide wether he would want to bond with him or not, so there is no Spectre around to doll out judgement to the 4 horsemen.

]o[mosaic]o[

03-14-2007, 12:48 PM

I have seen good deaths, and good resurrections. When I heard that bucky was coming back, I thought it would be horrible. I read a friend's copy of the story, and was pleasantly surprised. I thought Hal Jordan's Rebirth was horrible, and he's one of my favorite characters. The difference, I think, is Hal's rebirth made his death, and the events that led up to it, less significant, and Bucky's "death" remained important. I found Mar-Vell's return to be the worst ressurection ever, closely followed by Jason Todd's. I don't need every character who dies to stay dead, but sometimes, they died in such a powerful way, or their death means so much to characters that are living, that a resurrection will always seem cheap. As for Steve Rogers, what hurt me more than his death was his surrender. I would have been fine if he had died fighting for what he believed in. Seeing him die in chains, after giving up, was a slap in the face. I can't imagine him coming back and ever meaning as much to me as he did before CW#7.

Lord Ruthven

03-14-2007, 12:53 PM

tell them to wait for the trade or second printing. thats a crime...and remember, a year or two from now it will be worth only a quarter of that price. save your money and buy some indys.

The awful truth about that LCS is with this kind of thing they won't get the 2nd printing in until they've sold out of the 1st printing. It's all about the cash for them.

I can't agree more about the price dropping over time, and with the trade at least they will get all the variant covers also :)

After the House of M debacle I dropped pretty much all the Marvel titles I was getting and picked up far more Indys instead. Best move ever!

Lord Ruthven

03-14-2007, 12:57 PM

right after IC the Spectre gave Crispus a year to decide wether he would want to bond with him or not, so there is no Spectre around to doll out judgement to the 4 horsemen.

This is correct. I dare say that the Spectre was keeping out of human affairs for that year, prior to revisiting Crispus. I think the only time he did have interaction with anyone was when Ralph visited him.

whitemarkd

03-14-2007, 12:57 PM

shoot man - I had not read that one yet.
Sorry - I assumed a week on would be safe, but I'll be more careful in the future...

Mack

03-14-2007, 12:58 PM

These "deaths" are only, ever, just gimmicks by lazy writers and editors. Oh, no one knows who Blue Beetle is anymore? Let's kill him. There are at least two years until Hollywood makes a Captain America movie? Let's kill Steve Rogers! (That way the non-comic-book audiences will at least know the character's name when we cast next-big-thing-of-the-month!) As such, they have no relevance. Who died in the DC Universe this week? Last week? Week before that? They may still have impact to the minority of readers of a particular title, for about a moment, until somebody else pops up in the costume, proving that the whole thing is NOT about character - it's about LOGO.

Fine. Whatever.

Worse, are all the STUPID resurrections. Of all the recent ones, and there have been approximately a million, only Used-to-be-Bucky has been handled with any grace. Ronin's unmasking in six months won't have any impact at all, besides a sales blip. And, afterwards, there will always be published evidence that Captain America is not only a quitter but a faker, as well (might as well add "coward" to the list, since I can nearly guarantee his death was "faked" to keep him out of Marvel's Gitmo, preventing him from getting bent over by one of his imprisoned foes.)

These writers can insist they are forwarding the time-honored progression of these characters, blah-blah-blah, but it isn't true just because you say it is, na-na-nahnah-na. It's all become boring and predictable.

Also, as to how these stories become "newsworthy:" They're called publicists. They are paid to telephone all the "journalists" they know and say, "Hey - you should print / broadcast / pod-whatever this!" Slow news day, indeed. How naive must you be to think anyone really cares about the "death" of Batman, Captain America, Superman or Dude Who Talks To Fish?

That's my opinion - now call me names.

Jason Todd is dead.

whitemarkd

03-14-2007, 12:59 PM

This is correct. I dare say that the Spectre was keeping out of human affairs for that year, prior to revisiting Crispus. I think the only time he did have interaction with anyone was when Ralph visited him.
52: A Year without Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman... and the Spectre.

And Robin?

And the Flash? (Not counting Jay.)

Bevbos

03-14-2007, 01:15 PM

I have personally found the best deaths of recent years to be the Kingpin, and Guy and Tike from X-Statix. Now, all three characters have been seen again - the Kingpin never actually died per se - but the shock of death was there initially, and the issues still read well today.

(I haven't read Identity Crisis, so I can't comment on Sue Dibny's death. I thought the Isis and Osiris deaths were good, but I won't feel the same way if they're back by the end of 52.)

GuitarSmashley

03-14-2007, 01:22 PM

I gave moonie effective.

Lex

03-14-2007, 01:30 PM

Zeodiego

03-14-2007, 01:39 PM

Exactly, I thought it was a pretty cool dynamic that got snuffed out...and there is the overwhelming feeling that they won't be coming back...unless Adam frees faust and Neron from Fates tower and uses them to bring Isis and Osiris back.

i dont think black adam would be the kind to resort to ressuction, look at his lost family (the original from along time ago) he did not try to ressuct them. i think he is more of "rest in peace i will avenge you" than "i will bring you back, i cant live without you" black adam is a killer! so you kill is wife and that anoying brother or her and there will be more deaths!!!

CKdoubleU

03-14-2007, 01:52 PM

David Hine (Silent War, Spawn, Son of M): Case in point: The Death of Captain America. Although Ed Brubaker made a sterling attempt at writing a moving story about the death of Marvel's best-loved character, I found myself contemplating, like everyone else, whether he was really dead and if so how many months would pass before he was resurrected. I even found thoughts of Life Model Decoys and clones drifting around in my head. Now it may be that Steve Rogers will remain dead. But the impact of his death is already irreparably diminished by that tradition of resurrection.

I recently wrote a What If...? story where I got to kill off Jean Grey for the umpteenth time. In my version of Deadly Genesis, Vulcan is responsible for her death and his punishment is to relive the death of Jean Grey and her fellow X-Men over and over. Vulcan's final monologue sums up my feelings about the cycle of death and re-birth in superhero comics: "But they overlooked something. It gets easier. Every time it hurts a little less...I've watched them die two hundred and seventy-three times. How many times do you have to see someone die before you feel nothing at all?"
Excellent quote, and I couldn't agree more.

dalunt

03-14-2007, 02:00 PM

The death of Gert in Runaways affected me more than Captain America's.

Ricardo

03-14-2007, 02:09 PM

I just hope Thanos stays dead this time. Let him be happy with his lover for a while.

Conejoslave

03-14-2007, 02:12 PM

A death in comic books hasn't mattered to me in a long time. I still don't know how I feel about the death of Cap and I think a lot of people need to let it sink in before they go on and on and on and on and on and on about how they hate Joe Q and Marvel has ruined themselves. I think for death to matter it needs some kind of dramatic build up. Mark my words, the next death to make an impact on fans in a positive way (I say positive because it will be written and executed brilliantly) will come at the end Joss's run of Astoshing or Ed's Uncanny.

bcondray

03-14-2007, 02:18 PM

Sherlock Holmes proved that death in fiction is not always final.....100's of years ago....

OSLegionFan

03-14-2007, 02:34 PM

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).

Well, the beautiful thing about that... is you know Osiris will be coming back... though in a much different form (and a different orifice). *heh*

SSK17

03-14-2007, 02:45 PM

i dont think black adam would be the kind to resort to ressuction, look at his lost family (the original from along time ago) he did not try to ressuct them. i think he is more of "rest in peace i will avenge you" than "i will bring you back, i cant live without you" black adam is a killer! so you kill is wife and that anoying brother or her and there will be more deaths!!!

Yea, but isn't Faust in the new JL? He had to get out of the tower somehow.... but i do agree with you, he is more of the avenging type.

Max Bialy

03-14-2007, 03:17 PM

With all these rebirths a title like "Marvel zombies" seem either redundant or a company-wide crossover...

Hand213

03-14-2007, 03:28 PM

Sherlock Holmes proved that death in fiction is not always final.....100's of years ago....

The first Holmes story was published in 1887 - not exactly hundreds of years ago. The previous Beowulf reference is a little more apt.

Jupiterzguy

03-14-2007, 03:29 PM

One more thing...with all the death that four horsemen caused in Kahndaqe I'm surprised the Spectre himself didn't appear to render judgement on them :confused:

The specter only shows up to dish vengeance out on old women who killed their abusive husbands and have regretted it their entire lives. The creators of the four horseman are actually people who deserve vengeance, so of course the specter is nowhere to be seen.

Although, he's non corporeal during 52 anyway.

Tenebrare

03-14-2007, 03:31 PM

rpi

03-14-2007, 03:52 PM

Heh, it makes me chuckle that they asked Adam Beechen when the very first thing he did in his first issue of Robin was to have Batgirl kill Lynx, a character that had her head chopped off right in front of Batgirl a year before. Nothing makes a death mean less than when you can tell the writer doesn't really care about what he or she is doing with the death.

Fletcher

03-14-2007, 04:03 PM

Didn't they pose this same question a few months back?

Death in comic books doesn't mean squat anymore. Not with every comic book character in the Marvel and DC stables either coming out with movies or being optioned for movies. Neither company is going to take a chance on either the moving deals falling through or lose the trade mark ,as Marvel did a dozen or so years back with the Champions (yes, I know there is a new book called the Champions coming out).
Any more death in the big 2 has been turned into an out, a deus ex machina ( and not the comic book folks) if you will. Can't get the story going in the direction you want it to= kill someone. Written yourself into a corner= kill someone. Just can't think of anything to do= kill someone. heck, you can't even go on the assumption that you saw the body in the last panel he/she must be dead.
In the end it is another ploy to seperate suckers from their cash.

Fletcher

03-14-2007, 04:07 PM

Sherlock Holmes proved that death in fiction is not always final.....100's of years ago....

Well, to be fair Doyle was getting death threats after he killed off Holmes. I don' t think, or at least I pray, that most comic book readers no matter how social inept they are would not make threats or attempts on some comic book writer.

NedPepper

03-14-2007, 04:12 PM

Interesting responses from these pros.

It's a tricky question. A recent example: I think it's pretty obvious Colossus came back to life because Joss Whedon liked the character. He wanted him back. He wanted that old dynamic between Kitty and Peter that he remembered from his days of reading the X-books. Granted, either I've forgotten how Peter came back or they haven't gotten to it yet, but it's kind of telling that no one really even asks for an explanation. (Did Ord bring him back to life? For some reason, Astonishing just slips through my head without leaving much of an imprint. Maybe it's the delays...) The people who are fans of Peter are just happy to be reading stories with him in them once again. I'm one of those people. Am I disillusioned about death in comics? Probably so.

Should death be permanent? Should one writer kill a character that has been around for decades? Should Captain America really stay dead? I don't know. I think denying future generations from being able to read a Steve Rogers Cap is kind of selfish. On the other hand, would bringing him back just diminish the story of his death? Was there a quality story in his death? I think it's too damn subjective.

But, as a creative writer myself, I think there are ways to bring characters back from the dead and make the return interesting. Dying isn't fun, and coming back to life should be worse. There's a lot of potential in a story like that. That's how I look at it, and how I would approach writing a resurrection.

Although, to be perfectly honest, if I were writing for Marvel or DC, I would be intimidated as hell in killing off any character that has been around longer than I've been alive. I would make damn sure I put everything I had into that story.

And then I would leave it to someone else to bring that character back. ;)

03-14-2007, 04:18 PM

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case)....You shouldn't be. When Terra bit the big one - read: dying, not Slade's you-know-what - she hadn't been with the Titans more than, what A year? Ditto for Kole, and Wolfman has confessed that she was created solely to die in COIE #12. And while the former got more bitching and whining about her demise than the latter, both did garner some fan attachments in a short time akini to what Osiris and Isis got. The funny thing is that Isis death was long foreshadowed - remember the comments by Wacker about how we'll feel "VERY sad" for Adam when 52 was all over with? - but Osiris' came totally out of left field. Which is probably why everyone went apes'hit over it.

...but several years ago I asked Dave Cockrum whether or not he was upset at Colossus being killed-off, and his reply was; "No. In the Marvel Universe, death is only for Ben Parker and Bucky Barnes."...I guess you haven't heard yet, then. Remember that retcon that Ben Parker was one of the guards at Project: Wideawake? Well, guess who's coming back resurrected as the new Captain America :p This, of course, will lead us to the new Jim Starlin "Cosmic" series as follows:

"Death Takes A Sabbatical! After several dozen major players in the MU are brought back to life after guarantees that they were irrevokably dead, Steve Rogers' arrival in Death's domain interrupts her honeymoon with Thanos, and the resulting chaos causes her to abdicate her throne. As she and Thanos take off for a more secluded location to make whoopiee, the various powers-that-be in the MU vie to be her replacement. But when her abdication causes every single being that's died in the MU to come back to life, how do the MU heroes *and* villains react to the sudden influx of the reliving dead? And what can Steve Rogers do to fix all this, being the only one still left dead due to a clerical error? 52 issues weekly series, drawn by the six artists who can't meet deadlines to save their asses so the series will finish within 76 weeks instead of 104!"

Captain Brit

03-14-2007, 04:42 PM

I am fascinated by this discussion. It shows how important these characters are to us. Because death has such a big impact in real life we expect it to have a big one in our fictional lives. Is part of the issue that, when we read about our favourite characters and suspend belief to enter their world, we all agree to a set of unwritten rules. The characters face peril and survive through means that make sense in the fictional world. Once they die in that fictional world and then miraculously come back it breaks the conditions of the unwritten rules and stops us from suspending belief. It jolts us back and we accept it for fiction rather than escapism. Maybe we really are strange for identifying so strongly with these characters.

By the By - Which members of Alpha Flight actually died in New Avengers? It all seems rather vague.

Cheers!

deco_la

03-14-2007, 04:45 PM

I've never understood why readers get so wound up when characters are killed off and then brought back. It's fiction. Creators have full control over what happens in the comic book universe. If they wanted to they could make Batman and Joker tapdance and sing folk songs together.

So why should death for fictional characters have the same impact that death for us has?

Agreed. This is superhero comics after all -- I LIKE that people die and sometimes come back (just like I like how they fly, shoot beams, time travel, do magic and all that). It's part of the fun of the game.

I guess that coming back somehow invalidates the emotional investment in the death -- and I can see that, especially when the death/return seems more for sales than story.

But when the story is good, I ALWAYS get shocked/saddened whatever, when they die (I was stunned at the SPOILER Thanos death in Annihilation -- I choked up over Jean's 2nd death in Phoenix Whatever-it-was-called. I still get misty over Karen Page. For me, in the context of the story, the deaths are real. Colussus sacrificing himself to cure the legacy virus? Great way to go. Now he's back? OK, but it doesn't take away from the emotion of when he died. I mean, if you buy into the whole genre, then he REALLY DID DIE (he just got better). And he might REALLY DIE again (and again).

bigdaddyhub

03-14-2007, 05:00 PM

Don't even bring Mar-Vell into this discussion. His return was so lame that it shouldn't even count as a character resurrection. They should just have him step back into that crappy portal and go away. I really think that Paul Jenkins should at least TRY when he writes books. He has gone from hero to absolute zero. (Paul, if you read this, keep in mind that I would never say this to your face.)

kalorama

03-14-2007, 05:11 PM

In general terms, anyone who's been reading comics for any length of time understands that the death/rebirth cycle is just another storytelling device and a standard element of the superhero genre, like secret identities, costumes, powers, and daring, improbable escapes from doom. Abolishing them would be getting rid of an inherent traditional part of the genre.

No pun intended, but it's all in the execution. A character's death can have emotional impact if it's written and drawn in an emotionally impactful way. And bringing a character back only devalues the character's death (to the extent that it does at all) when the resurrection isn't as artfully crafted as the original demise.

Once they die in that fictional world and then miraculously come back it breaks the conditions of the unwritten rules and stops us from suspending belief. It jolts us back and we accept it for fiction rather than escapism.

I disagree with this. I think that accepting the idea of rebirth is a major clause in the unwritten rules we agree to abide by when we enter these worlds.

03-14-2007, 05:32 PM

I disagree with this. I think that accepting the idea of rebirth is a major clause in the unwritten rules we agree to abide by when we enter these worlds....You know, it just hit me. I think I know where The Q's logic has been derailed on the issue of why "dead is dead" no longer applies. Considering the sheer number of times that Kenny has died and returned in South Park, and combined with the fact that the Big Red S pulled a Lazarus Gambit himself a decade past and got away with it, he now feels we're desensitized to resurrections and it's a great time to bring everyone back from the dead so we can kill them again and boost sales!

Bendis: Omigod! They killed Joe Q!

Everyone else: [pause] Yeah, whatever, dude. He'll be back too.

kalorama

03-14-2007, 05:50 PM

Is Carey kidding?
The whole thing about Syrin refusing to acknowledge her father's death isn't poignant and painful to watch at all. Why? Because she's right. It's only a matter of time before we see Banshee again. It's more of a joke how the characters around her can't see her point as they've been throught the exact same ressurections time and again. Frankly, if I was a Marvel superhero I wouldn't just take every death as permanent either

The problem in that case (and many others) is , again, one of execution. How can the publishers expect the readers to react with any emotion to a character's death when their own writer's mock the idea of death as permanent in their stories? Sure, characters have (and will) come back from the dead. But, at least within the internal world the character's inhabit, their returns were surprising and unheralded. The characters didn't know who was coming back or when and they didn't sit around waiting for it to happen. Sure the readers figure they'll be coming back eventually, but to impart those same external expectations onto the characters was a huge mistake, I think.

wazsa

03-14-2007, 06:02 PM

<a href="http://www.newsarama.com/general/TheQ/2k7death.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.newsarama.com/general/TheQ/2k7death_t.jpg" border="0" align="right"></a>by Vaneta Rogers

Adam Beechen (Robin, Countdown, Teen Titans): It absolutely has value -- if handled properly. Fans can spot a gratuitous "stunt death" a mile away. And because there've been so many character deaths in the last twenty years, fans are a little wary of them. So a character death has to have emotional resonance to the story the writer's trying to tell in more than just the short-term. It can't just be forgotten the next month. It also depends on how well the character has been portrayed over his or her appearances. Death means much more to a reader if he or she is emotionally invested in the character. Take the death of Superboy and how it relates to the Teen Titans. Geoff Johns and the artists he worked with did a tremendous job of building a character readers could care about. Now that that character is gone, he's still being felt in the book months after it happened...and that'll continue to be the case, because Superboy was an integral part of those characters' lives, and with the way they're structured, he'll continue to be, in memory.

I think this is the most important aspect of a character death that I want to see, How does it affect others.
I am one of the few people that enjoyed the Clone Saga and Ben Reilly storyline years back, I was even happy with the end and the death of Ben.
Then the following issue is set 3 months later and the comment is pretty much "oh well it happened we moved on"
NO follow up at all.
From that issue I stopped reading EVERY Marvel comic

ColonelLee

03-14-2007, 06:11 PM

In my case, I quit buying FLASH after Barry Allen died. (still can't relate to the character) I quit buying GREEN LANTERN after Hal Jordan died. (started buying it when Hal finally came back from the dead) I quit buying SUPERMAN after Superman died. I quit buying SPIDERMAN after the clone reveal, started buying it again when JMS began writing it. And so on.

There's plenty of good comics to buy. So when one series disappoints you, you buy something else and get into that.

As far as why? You get invested in the character. Just like in the movies, you want the happy ending for the hero. Death is not the happy ending. Or at least for me, it isn't.

]o[mosaic]o[

03-14-2007, 06:53 PM

Death is not the happy ending. Or at least for me, it isn't.

But sometimes, it can be. I was happy with Hal's death. I thought it was noble and redeeming for all the harm he did as Parallax. Rebirth cheapened that redemption by blaming it on a big yellow bug. Not cool, in my book. Similar story with Colossus. He sacrificed himself to stop the Legacy virus, which was in line with his character. I don't know about the conditions of his resurrection, so I won't comment on that. I could go on, but I won't. Death is sometimes the way it should end.

kalorama

03-14-2007, 07:00 PM

o[mosaic]o['] Similar story with Colossus. He sacrificed himself to stop the Legacy virus, which was in line with his character. I don't know about the conditions of his resurrection, so I won't comment on that. I could go on, but I won't. Death is sometimes the way it should end.

I'm exactly the opposite. I never read the story of his death, but I thought his resurrection was brilliantly handled.

WineLoverBub

03-14-2007, 07:21 PM

Death has no meaning in comics since PEOPLE COME BACK TO LIFE!

Writers in the comic world need to remember this. If you don't want a charater to die, then have him live forever. It's better than killing them off and then bringing them back.

Being dead in a comic book is a joke, since everyone knows that they will be back.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out.

ZEBULON

03-14-2007, 07:33 PM

With marvel, at least people stay dead for decades. It feels like there are no important deaths at dc anymore.
winter soldier is the way to handle a revival. jason todd is not.
Penance is a repercussion. a yellow space parasite is not.

ColonelLee

03-14-2007, 07:41 PM

It's not just comics. When Phil Hartman died (that was real) I quit watching NewsRadio. Jon Lovitz didn't do it for me. When Suzanne Sommers left Three's Company, I quit watching. When Sammy Hagar left Van Halen, I quit buying their records. When they changed Coca~Cola to New Coke, I quit buying it. And so on.

Entertainment is about people following a character, getting into the character, being entertained by it. When they kill off the character you are buying, change the product radically, there goes your reason for buying it.

bcondray

03-14-2007, 07:52 PM

The first Holmes story was published in 1887 - not exactly hundreds of years ago. The previous Beowulf reference is a little more apt.

Actually...being that that is 120 years...makes it hundreds of years..

And as Holmes was published written periodic fiction(with occasional drawings)...it comes closer to the situation as a better example. :)

Enigma20XX

03-14-2007, 07:59 PM

Thanks much to the comics creators who answered the questions, but everyone reading and posting here knows the real answer: death is a joke in comics, even in the supposedly "more realistic" Marvel U.

It's just a plot device, a sales gimmick, a way to get people talking. "Telling a good story" rarely comes into it, IMO. Maybe in Starlin's case, OK.

But Cap will be back - just like Phoenix, Bucky, Uncle Ben, Isis, Osiris, Ralph & Sue Dibny, Mar-Vell et al ad nauseum.

--------------------------------------

I don't know why we waste our time (I include myself here) debating this idiocy. I'm going to work now in the real world where my bandmate is dying of ALS. Best wishes to all. Celebrate life while you own it. And enjoy the comics you like whether your favorite character is currently still up & punching out bad guys or not.

Hmmm... now I wonder what sparked THIS column?

I'd counterpoint this argument if not for the fact that you're kinda right... but don't be suprised if Cap's the first death Marvel makes permanent just to flip off the intranets... and clog our series of tubes...

Chris Gage (Union Jack, Annihilation: Conquest -- Quasar, StormWatch PHD): A good story is a good story. If death is used as a cheap stunt, or a way of grabbing attention, or because the creative team has simply run out of ideas, the readers sense it and generally reject it. But if it's done well, it can definitely still have value, even if the "dead" character returns one or five or forty years down the line. If it's done well, it works; if it's not, it doesn't. Simple as that.

Chris Gage for the win....

One-eyedjake

03-14-2007, 08:21 PM

Any relevance death had in comics was deleted with the resurection of Bucky and Jason Todd.

JLAJRC

03-14-2007, 08:35 PM

TheToileteer

03-14-2007, 08:47 PM

I think we have to distinguish between the deaths of "commercially important" characters, and others. Ben Parker and Bucky were never going to have their own books, let alone dedicated Underoos. Captain Marvel's book had been cancelled. And the first time Phoenix died, the X-Men were just getting popular.

When Superman was "killed," most people recognized it was a gimmick, simply because Clark Kent is so obviously an integral part of the concept that he couldn't be replaced by a cyborg or clone or whatever. Ditto with Robin 2, who was replaced with Robin 3 within a month of the former's death. (So much for DC fulfilling their obligations to the people who telephoned voting to never see Robin again.)

The character of Steve Rogers is more marginal than these--the average person is doing well to recognize Cap, let alone know his name--but given the movie, I suspect he will be coming back as well. Of course we will first have to go through the obligatory "Reign of the Captains America" storyline in which Batroc the Leaper and three others (at least one of them black--it's kind of a requirement now) take over his mantle for a time.

Other character deaths could have been made to stick. Colossus, Hal Jordan, and Aquaman aren't so popular that they simply had to be resurrected--this was the initiative of individual writers. (The movies and cartoons are more than happy to ignore current continuity if need be.)

Enigma20XX

03-14-2007, 09:35 PM

Exactly. Which is why I don't understand the outrage when a writer uses it. Of course, 95% of all characters created will come back in some form, it's all in the execution of it. I think one of the best deaths ever was Tomorrow Woman (remember her?) in JLA. She was created and killed in one comic (although she did have that GirlFrenzy one-shot, also) and is one of the most moving deaths ever.

This basically is about Cap being bumped off... aren't "mythic" heroes supposed to die hero-worthy deaths? As opposed to taking a sniper bullet for a nameless guard, then being capped by a hypnotized woman? How is this a death of mythic proportions? Marvel went for "shock" value...

NedPepper

03-14-2007, 09:58 PM

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:02 AM

I was amazed how much the deaths of Osiris and Isis meant to people reading 52, given how briefly they even appeared (at least in this continuity, in Isis' case).
Osiris' death definitely moved me, because he was essentially a nice kid with heroic aspirations, who unduly felt cursed and hopeless. To see him get killed while wallowing in such a state was painful. (I only wish I hadn't guessed that Sobek was evil earlier in the issue -- when Sobek clued Osiris in on using "Shazam" to open the way to the Rock of Eternity. Sobek seemed way too much "in the know" at that point to be the harmless animal sidekick we were supposed to take him to be.)

Isis' death? Ehh, not so much. I was actually a little disappointed that she bought it. I think I would have more enjoyed seeing Isis totally corrupted by her brother's death and joining Adam in starting WW3. As it was, her falling into despair was definitely against the trend of most heroes to say, "Do not avenge me. You must rise above this," so I have to give the writers props for originality. Still, I think the cliche would have worked better here. Now, with Adam having Isis' consent, it's going to be hard to perceive him to be the bad guy rather than the victim. But maybe that's what the writers intended all along -- to provoke a grand-scale brouhaha in which we wouldn't feel right rooting for either side.

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:11 AM

All excellent answers, but I think death in comics are met more with a roll of the eyes than shock nowadays. Everyone is waiting for the next announcement in how they're going to return the recently deceased character.This is kinda sorta the problem I had with Spidey's "The Other" storyline -- how on earth did Marvel expect us to take seriously even for a moment the prospect of Spidey dying from an unspecified sickness? I stopped reading at the fourth issue because it was like, "Can we stop jacking around with the whole 'Death of Spidey' motif and get to the part where he miraculously comes back?"

(And for that matter, how could Quesada say with a straight face that "death matters" when he just brought back Captain Marvel???)

I still think the best "shock value death scene" I ever read was in issue #2 of the rather obscure second CITIZEN V miniseries from Marvel. In it, a superhero character was essentially vaporized in mid-sentence right at the beginning of the battle. There was nothing leading up to it to clue us in beforehand. Heck, it was almost a "blink and you'll miss it" scenario -- hero one moment, blobs of goo the next. The unexpectedness was really key to the scene, but the finality of it was riveting, too -- this wasn't a Cap or Spidey or even a second-string superhero, so it was pretty dead certain (no pun intended) that there would be no coming back for that character.

beta-ray

03-15-2007, 12:13 AM

I guess I am naive (and why I enjoy so many titles)...

I try not to think about a character's resurrection when they die in a comic unless it is blatantly obvious that the character will be back. I try to enjoy a story for what it is. If I am not entertained, then oh well, but it isn't necessarily because a story technique was used.. only if the technique was used poorly.

Sure there is a a bit of fault with the companies/publishers/writers. They cry wolf about a death and people tend to get skeptical. However, it is not wholly their fault that there is so much cynicism about death in comics. Readers have to take at least part of the blame for that. After all, the same story technicques are used over and over in many titles, but don't get groused about. Again, not to say that the writers/companies have no fault in it... and boy has there been a lot of death in comics lately.

Anyways. Basically what I've been babbling on about. I do feel that death matters if you let it and if it is done decently. I just want to read good/fun/entertaining stories. Whether it be about death or coming back from death.

And maybe I did lie. I did think about resurrecting a character right away after his death. No not Cap... Sadly, Quasar. :(

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:13 AM

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:18 AM

Tony Bedard (Exiles, Countdown, JSA: Classified): Death is such a fundamental aspect of life that it will always have dramatic value. If a death has no impact, it's because it was poorly told, not because other characters have died in other stories. Now, the way other character deaths have been portrayed in previous stories might have some influence on how you tell your story, if only so you don't copy something that's already been done, but a million lame stories won't stop a writer from trying to tell a good one. A million crass, marketing-driven character deaths won't stop you from believing you can kill off your own character in a poignant, impactful manner.Am I the only one who's kinda bothered by the way Captain America went out? Like, in handcuffs, gutshot by his girl, and no famous last words other than "protect the civilians"? No chance to fight back, no going out in a blaze of glory -- I think one of the reasons I'm having a hard time believing Cap perma-dead is because his death was just so...bleah.

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:21 AM

Superboy died for the worst reasons: Lawsuits and to fill the "New Flash" & "Dead Super-Kid" quota of a CRISIS
No kidding. I would much rather have seen Wally West or Nightwing get killed than Superboy. Instead, Wally West just "loses his vertical hold" or something, and Nightwing lives through a massive laser blast to the chest. How anticlimactic. (Actually, I guess we should be thankful Nightwing didn't die, as that rushed "Look out, Batman!" scene would have been a lousy way to go.)

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:24 AM

The list of great characters that have died and not been resurected is growing short. We can now scratch Captain Mar-vell off the list.Well, technically CM wasn't resurrected, just plucked out of time, but...yeah, it sucks that he's back. Captain Marvel's death was, like, the thing that kept death at least partially real to Marvel readers -- it was kinda like proof that Marvel really could kill a hero perma-dead.

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:31 AM

I think that's why the Disassembled deaths and Firestorm's death felt so hollow to me and so many others.Actually, I thought Firestorm's death was quite moving. Of course, what helped was the foreshadowing that the FIRESTORM comic put out first -- you knew something bad was going to happen to Ronnie. And that look of horror on his face when he realized he was going to die, and there was nothing anybody could do to stop it? Priceless.

And I think that's where Marvel is being smart in giving Jeph Loeb the chance to really explore the reaction to Captain America's death by other characters.Egad. Am I the only one who predicts that Loeb is going to botch this as badly as he's currently botching Wolverine? Place your bets!

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 12:39 AM

I am one of the few people that enjoyed the Clone Saga and Ben Reilly storyline years back, I was even happy with the end and the death of Ben.I enjoyed the Clone Saga right up until Marvel did a 180 and put Peter back in the webs. I happened to think making Ben the real Peter Parker was an incredible move that would have revitalized the Spider-books...if they'd only have allowed the story to play out a few more months before making the call on whether to return to the status quo.

JLAJRC

03-15-2007, 12:53 AM

This basically is about Cap being bumped off... aren't "mythic" heroes supposed to die hero-worthy deaths? As opposed to taking a sniper bullet for a nameless guard, then being capped by a hypnotized woman? How is this a death of mythic proportions? Marvel went for "shock" value...

I think the scenario you describe should only be used if they never plan on reviving the character. What's the use of planning a emotional, heroic death if they're simply gonna come back in a year or two? The death doesn't have to be ridiculous, but save the "blaze of glory" stuff for a final story with them.

Carter101

03-15-2007, 12:55 AM

What about Ted Kord, Blue Beetle, guys? I doubt he's coming back..
(wish he would though, there's just not as much laughter in comics without him)

dcbill

03-15-2007, 01:26 AM

It doesn't seem as if anybody's making a distinction between "we were sure s/he was dead, but now we find out s/he isn't" (Jean Grey's first apparent death and Colossus's recent death) and the "not only merely dead but really most sincerely dead" such as Green Arrow being blown up real good or Jason Todd being murdered and then being brought back to life by some ex machina.

The former's a bit of a cheat but, I think, fair game (Sherlock Holmes falls into this category), while the latter reminds us that comic book reality is different from our reality and cheapens the whole concept of death. When a character dies, and other characters EXPECT THEM to return... well, that's just silly.

kalorama

03-15-2007, 02:39 AM

What about Ted Kord, Blue Beetle, guys? I doubt he's coming back..
(wish he would though, there's just not as much laughter in comics without him)

I'm dead solid certain he'll come back eventually, although probably not until there's something of a regime change at DC.

It doesn't seem as if anybody's making a distinction between "we were sure s/he was dead, but now we find out s/he isn't" (Jean Grey's first apparent death and Colossus's recent death) and the "not only merely dead but really most sincerely dead" such as Green Arrow being blown up real good or Jason Todd being murdered and then being brought back to life by some ex machina.

In the pre-Dark Knight/Year One days, every Batman story in which the Joker appeared ended with (A) his apparent death and (B) someone asking Batman if the Joker was really gone this time and him saying something to the effect of, "If you didn't see a body, he'll be back." Obviously even that standard is no longer applied, but I've never had a problem with characters coming back. It's always been part of the comic book landscape. I've honestly never understood the zeal of many fans (and creators) to have comics more resemble so-called "real life." It's fanciful, escapist, speculative fiction. As long as it works within the rules and boundaries established in the made up worlds the writers create, it's fine, I say.

dcbill

03-15-2007, 02:43 AM

I'm dead solid certain he'll come back eventually, although probably not until there's something of a regime change at DC.

In the pre-Dark Knight/Year One days, every Batman story in which the Joker appeared ended with (A) his apparent death and (B) someone asking Batman if the Joker was really gone this time and him saying something to the effect of, "If you didn't see a body, he'll be back." Obviously even that standard is no longer applied, but I've never had a problem with characters coming back. It's always been part of the comic book landscape. I've honestly never understood the zeal of many fans (and creators) to have comics more resemble so-called "real life." It's fanciful, escapist, speculative fiction. As long as it works within the rules and boundaries established in the made up worlds the writers create, it's fine, I say.

And I'm fine with that as long as the writer doesn't expect us to attach any importance to the death of a comic book character. You can't have it both ways, acting as if a death should have drama attached to it while feeling free to reverse it at a whim.

Hand213

03-15-2007, 09:05 AM

Actually...being that that is 120 years...makes it hundreds of years..

And as Holmes was published written periodic fiction(with occasional drawings)...it comes closer to the situation as a better example. :)

ONE hundred twenty. How is that hundreds? I would think the plural only applies to two or more hundreds, no? ;)

I would go with Beowulf as the more appropriate comparison because we're talking about superhero comics. Beowulf accomplished feats beyond ordinary humans; Holmes was a detective. If we were talking detective comics, I'd agree with you. The serialization aspect is a good point, but on a character/story basis, I don't think Holmes lines up well against the superhero genre.

tbumpkins

03-15-2007, 09:20 AM

The creators hit the two nails on the head - it's all in the storytelling, and if it isn't handled well it just diminishes the effect to the reader. Almost each death in Infinite Crisis felt like it was filling some quota to me, while aside from some of the great ones you guys mentioned (Colossus, Hal, Tomorrow Woman), when Simone supposedly killed off Deadpool (one of my favorite characters) it was handled so well I had no problem if I never saw the character again. The mythology point is an excellent analogy, as comics basically are our modern myths. The hero rebirth cycle will play out, but even in the old tales, movement through the underworld was handled in a delicate manner with rules. So from there, for people like me that accepted the Hal death, the yellow demon bug diminishes that.

I think the Jason Todd/Bucky returns at almost the exact time, show us this perfectly. Bucky is accepted since there was a story behind it which could adequately catch the reader, and has filled out an interesting role since. While Todd has been teetering off the tight rope.

An interesting aside, reading interviews of people on Captain Marvel's return, the creators are directly aware of his death and the power of its effect on people real and fictional, and Marvel has to confront this destiny and its significance. Now that seems quite the concept with hints of meta-commentary, but as we've all seen it's been muddled so far in its execution.

Arion

03-15-2007, 11:34 AM

Very interesting thoughts about death.

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 02:42 PM

"If you didn't see a body, he'll be back."
Ironically, this was also a quote from Metamorpho, who has died and been resurrected twice now -- in both cases, I think, with a visible corpse.

mpartyka

03-15-2007, 03:05 PM

I've honestly never understood the zeal of many fans (and creators) to have comics more resemble so-called "real life." It's fanciful, escapist, speculative fiction.It's about being able to relate to and care about characters. If Wolverine can't die, why should I give a flip about Wolverine's struggles? "Hey, Sabretooth gutted Wolverine....(Yawn)...Oh, well, he'll live." And if character after character keeps coming back from the dead to restore the status quo, why should I care about any of the characters in that comic book universe?

One reason why Civil War and its aftermath are so fascinating to me is that Marvel history has been decisively divided into a "before" and an "after" -- there's no intention of going back to the way things used to be, nor should there be. That's how character deaths should be, too -- the reader should be able to experience the finality of the loss, or else the death is meaningless.

For example, who gives a flip what happens to Wonder Man now? He's come back from the dead at least three times. Why should I care about a character that, for all intents and purposes, can't be killed? (Bendis should never have picked him for the Mighty Avengers roster.)

DarkJared

03-16-2007, 01:09 AM

I think that with all the ressurections in comics (particularly lately) it has lessenned the impact of it in story-telling. No matter how good the story is the comic-death is tainted as we all know that there is no real loss or sacrifice since a character will always return. It could the greatest work a great writer could ever do and it wouldn't be as impactful as it would have been 20-30 years ago for instance.

I see Steve Rogers dead but I've just seen it too many times and there's too many marketing and money reasons for him to come back that I know he will be. This is only temporary and as cool a story as Cap #25 was that knowledge took a lot of the 'whoa' factor out of the book for me.

I felt nothing for Aunt May at all. I was like "meh." She's been dead before no biggie. So if she does bite it I won't be moved at all and I won't be able to feel much for Peter. Not like the first time.

Thor's already coming back - pretty weak Ragnarok. What was the big deal then? Was his struggle really that big a thing if the war of the gods that supposedly killed him didn't really kill him? What happens for the next writer who wants to put him that position - is anyone gonna take the bait... again? Will anyone feel the danger knowing that if he dies ..again... he'll just be brought back in a year or two?

Marvel really did this by meddling with the sacred triad - Bucky, Captain Marvel and Uncle Ben. I'm just waiting for Ben... I'm watching you Peter David!

Marvel needs to make an actual sacrifce and say - these characters are staying dead. In the vault they go and they can't come out. They are more valuable to us as evidence of the consequences and as plot devices. It puts more credibility behind the writers if they chose to kill or threaten someone's life as that death may actually stick.

Awake1313

03-16-2007, 11:20 AM

If youre going to kill a character, dont use the excuse of Superboy Prime punching a wall or a cosmic bird giving you life again. If youre going to kill a character for shock, then you shouldnt be writing. Make sure the death has a purpose, and if youre going to bring someone back, make sure theres a better purpose for that. I hope the current writers in comics can take something from these message boards and think twice before using old tricks. I hope Steve Rogers stays dead, he died a hero and thats how his legacy should end.

mpartyka

03-16-2007, 12:57 PM

I hope Steve Rogers stays dead, he died a hero and thats how his legacy should end.He died a hero? What was he fighting for? Personally, I saw him as being pretty selfish throughout CIVIL WAR. He wanted to keep his "inalienable right" to fighting whom he wanted, how he wanted, when he wanted. The government lawfully took that right away. He fought the law, and the law won. How does any of that make him the hero in this?

Working for a private company I have to follow some pretty stupid rules in order to fulfill government regulations. I don't like working within the system, but I have to do it. Cap thought he was somehow above the law, and look where and what it got him. A nice Lee Harvey Oswald sendoff on the courthouse steps from Sharon's Jack Ruby (w/ apologies to Speedball).

Personally, I hope Steve Rogers stays dead because the America he represents doesn't exist anymore. Raw, unbridled patriotism is discouraged today. "My country, right or wrong" no longer washes with the masses. In my opinion, Marvel would be smart to put Bucky Barnes a.k.a. Winter Soldier in the flag outfit because he better reflects today's idea of the heroic American soldier -- somebody who's sent to do a dirty job for seemingly dirty reasons.

dcbill

03-16-2007, 02:16 PM

If you're going to kill a character, don't use the excuse of Superboy Prime punching a wall or a cosmic bird giving you life again.

I always wondered what drugs the writers were on when they came up with the "explanation" for Jason Todd's return. If they absolutely had to tie in the Superboy-Prime-punching-walls deal, couldn't they have had our universe briefly cross over to a universe in which he didn't die and find some reason for Jason to remain in ours? It would be awkward, but the current explanation is so convoluted, even Hawkman thinks it's ridiculous.

dcbill

03-16-2007, 02:21 PM

In the pre-Dark Knight/Year One days, every Batman story in which the Joker appeared ended with (A) his apparent death and (B) someone asking Batman if the Joker was really gone this time and him saying something to the effect of, "If you didn't see a body, he'll be back."

Villains are supposed to always come back. It's part of the "they must be defeated, yet they must remain a viable villain" tradition. I don't think anybody every questioned or complained about this.

The death of a hero is (supposed to be) a rarity. It's a shocking thing, and cheapening it ruins the whole concept. When the characters don't even take their fellow heroes' deaths seriously in-story, that's a problem.

mpartyka

03-16-2007, 02:25 PM

Villains are supposed to always come back. It's part of the "they must be defeated, yet they must remain a viable villain" tradition. I don't think anybody every questioned or complained about this.I don't like it when villains come back from the dead, either. Sinestro should still be dead (although I admit this Sinestro Corps thing is intriguing). About five of Flash's rogues were killed and then resurrected. Norman Osborn was brought back during the 2nd Clone Saga, and that was a miserable return.

Awake1313

03-17-2007, 01:02 AM

[QUOTE=mpartyka]He died a hero? What was he fighting for? Personally, I saw him as being pretty selfish throughout CIVIL WAR.

He did die a hero, like it or not. He never sold his values and did what he thought was right for the American public as well as the meta-human population. Iron Man was just as selfish if you go by your words. Cap represented the best of America, at least he saw the wrong he did and took responsibility for it. Iron Man? He helps create killer clones and hires villians to do dirty work. He hired a villian to throw a fight so he could decieve Spider-Man into backing the registration act, how is that a hero? No, Cap stayed true without decieving the public or his friends. He was the hero throughout Civil War.

thunderthief

03-18-2007, 01:20 PM

Death in any form of fiction is a plot device. It's when the device is overused that people start to get ticked. It's really that simple. Like Palmiotti said, it's better to use another hurdle of life to show how strong a character is nowadays.

For a comic universe that once, briefly, had a 'dead is dead' policy, it's quite a turnaround to watch resurrections like Colossus and Mar-Vell, and then have to play along with Steve Rogers' "death".

Enigma20XX

03-18-2007, 09:55 PM

I think the scenario you describe should only be used if they never plan on reviving the character. What's the use of planning a emotional, heroic death if they're simply gonna come back in a year or two? The death doesn't have to be ridiculous, but save the "blaze of glory" stuff for a final story with them.

if it has no meaning... why do it in the first place?

mpartyka

03-19-2007, 11:29 AM

He never sold his values and did what he thought was right for the American public as well as the meta-human population. Iron Man was just as selfish if you go by your words.While I agree that some of the pro-registration side's tactics were highly Machiavellian, I disagree that these tactics translate into "selfishness" on the side of Iron Man or any of the pro-registration heroes. Iron Man saw registration as inevitable, and it was inevitable after Stamford. Stamford was a 9/11-type situation for the Marvel Universe -- the status quo (i.e., letting superheroes act as unsupervised vigilantes) became unacceptable. Faced with the inevitability of registration, Iron Man wisely chose not to defy the system but to define the system. He (along w/ Mr. Fantastic, Hank Pym, and others) would shape how registration would play out and make sure that registration unfolded in ways that were ultimately in the best interests of the public.

Cap could have chosen to be part of the solution or part of the problem, and he chose to be part of the problem. Somehow he thought that so long as he did his job well, just as he'd always done, the public would have no problem with his "civil disobedience" (if you can call it that). He was wrong. Why? Because his conduct as a superhero was never the issue. It was the conduct of other superheroes who did not behave as professionally as Cap always did that was the issue. Cap's vision was, "The public will trust us if we do our job well," but that baseline had been taken completely off the table by the Stamford incident. Instead, the bottom line had become, "The public will trust you if you register." Prowess does not equal trust, post-Stamford. Accountability equals trust.