WAID THINKS THE UNTHINKABLE [Archive]

MattBrady

01-23-2003, 04:15 PM

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067001_col.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067001_col_t.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="right" border="0" alt="FF #67, page 1"></a>Every major hero has their one, badass, big time arch-villain. Batman has the Joker. Superman has Lex Luthor. Spider-Man has the Green Goblin. But with each passing encounter, the challenge of making the conflict still resonate grows a bit more difficult. But there's a simple solution to it all, if you ask Fantastic Four writer Mark Waid: do something unthinkable.

This March, in Fantastic Four #67, Waid hopes to let the characters do the talking, as Dr. Doom returns to the pages of Fantastic Four to, well, do something 'Unthinkable.'

But after forty years of continuity, fans may be hard-pressed to decide if there is anything new, let alone unthinkable to be done with Victor Von Doom. Waid disagrees.

"Actually, the title's a play on words," Waid said. "It's not just about the horrors Doom will visit on the Fantastic Four - and they will be grim, dark and vicious - it's also describes the plight in which Reed finds himself - and that's all I can say about that without spilling too much."

Waid has gone on record saying that he will use the not-so-good doctor in a way that's obvious to him, but that fans have never seen before, leading many to speculate as to whether the bad Doctor will utilize a little sorcery of his heritage. "Again, not without giving away too much," Waid said. "Certainly a lot of online fans have put the hints together pretty well and are on the money when it comes to Doom's methods this time around--but I suspect everyone will be unprepared for just how ruthless Doom is willing to be. My editor certainly was. I hope he's sleeping better now."

Though Reed Richards is only a portion of Doom's motivation, he’s still a large one, which makes him, basically target #1 to Doom. The fact is, at one critical point in their mutual past, Reed was right and Doom was wrong, and that doesn't sit well with Doom.

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067002_col.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067002_col_t.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="left" border="0" alt="FF #67, page 2"></a>"Reed Richards and Victor Von Doom were college contemporaries," Waid said. "Doom was working on a machine with which to breach the barrier between our existence and the netherworld. Reed stumbled onto Doom's equations and formulae and caught an error--but Doom, in his arrogance, refused to listen to Reed. His mistake.

"The machine exploded, scarring Doom's face--and, certainly, to some extent, Doom sometimes chooses to believe that Reed sabotaged the machine to make Doom look bad. We will, in fact, be touching on all this – without going into excruciating detail – since it's integral to understanding why Doom hates Reed so much. There's more I have to say about their college days together...but that'll have to wait for another day."

But, playing devil’s advocate - doesn't Doom have a time machine? Couldn't he go back and fix anything? Waid was quick to drop a tidbit.

"Not if Johnny gets to it first," Waid said. "Look! A hint for the future...."

Aside from the moment where Reed and Doom clashed initially in college, Waid says there is one other critical point in the villain's past that will be explored in “Unthinkable.”

"Even had Reed managed to get Doom to listen to him, I'm not certain Doom's ego would ever have allowed him to recognize Reed as a peer," Waid said. "But there was another very critical juncture in Doom's past--and that's the juncture we're dealing with."

And it's Doom's resentment of that past moment and its outcome that fuels him today, Waid says.

"Oh, my God, yes," Waid said.

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067005_col.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067005_col_t.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="right" border="0" alt="FF #67, page 5"></a>The relationship between Reed as Doom as much more complex than just "Reed: Good. Doom: Bad," in Waid’s eyes – there are many facets to it all. "Their relationship is endlessly complex and endlessly fascinating, actually," Waid said. "On the one hand, there's a part of Reed--not an overly arrogant part, but a certainly human and understandable part--that enjoys being the smartest guy in the room, and I choose to believe Doom's intellect always threatens that on some level.

"That said, I think Reed generally looks at Doom's life-path as a tragedy of enormous magnitude and brings up feelings of tremendous loss. The day Doom became clearly irredeemable was the day Reed forever lost any chance to have as his friend the one man on Earth who could ever truly be his intellectual equal."

Though the main gist of the story will focus on the Reed/Doom conflict, Waid says the other members will get a chance to shine. Though, their reasons for disliking Doom will not be explored in as much detail as Reed's.

"The way it's playing out, this story isn't really the time for that," Waid said. "The crux of 'Unthinkable' is very much the conflict between Reed and Victor, but certainly everyone else on the team will have a chance to get their licks in. And the individual scars Doom leaves on the team members this time will certainly have an impact on everyone."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067011_colRGB72.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/Marvel/FF067011_colRGB72_t.jpg" width="175" height="263" align="left" border="0" alt="FF #67, page 11"></a>Waid has also said that Doom will be using a power he has never used before but always had. Whether it’s magic…well, Waid said that while magic may fit the description, he ain't 'fessin up. "That would certainly fit the profile of the hints we've dropped," Waid said. "Doesn't seem like it'd be much of a fight, however, given the Fantastic Four's staggering unfamiliarity with the ways of magic...."

Aside from the obvious, Waid plans for 'Unthinkable' to be a turning point for the team and for Doom. "Besides simply trying to tell a great story that lets the whole creative team show off," Waid said. "The goal is to take our team down a shockingly dark path and set them up for the next year's worth of stories...and some pretty rocky times."

As for where the book is going after 'Unthinkable,' Waid is brief. "Editor Brevoort referred to the next arc as our 'Anti-Authority' story," Waid said. "Make of that what you will."

toolverine

01-23-2003, 04:28 PM

I haven't tried another book since the 9 cent issue that started Waid's run because it seemed like it would be really dry and more like deja vu than new material. But, for Doom I will give the book a shot, if only to hear him talk about himself in the third person (I hope). Does anyone else still wish he was on Ruse?

Oh, yeah. This is my second, first post of the month :p

Brian Wink

01-23-2003, 04:33 PM

I picked up the 9¢ ish and enjoyed it quite a bit. I've been hoping to pick up this run as a TPB or HC. Do we know if Marvel's planning anything on that front?

Reloaded

01-23-2003, 04:39 PM

Oh God, does this sound good. Waid's understanding of Doom and Reed seems dead on. While I enjoyed 'Sentient', I dropped the book because while I like the concept of the FF, it seemed like business as usual. Fun stuff, sure, but I was looking for a deeper read of these characters, something no one has done since John Byrne let Sue be the Invisible [b]Woman.

I'm sold on this, Mr. Waid.

Buzzowl

01-23-2003, 04:45 PM

<Drool....>

Turner D. Century

01-23-2003, 04:46 PM

say good bye to one of the richards' kids...

ohh, the dark side seduction of Franklin and those powers of his via Doom's magic....

i haven't read two consecutive issues of the FF since that Art Adams - Spidey/Wolverine/Hulk/ Ghost Rider thing ages ago...

crap, am i actually looking foward to a FF book?

Evan Cantrell

01-23-2003, 04:49 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Wink:
I picked up the 9¢ ish and enjoyed it quite a bit. I've been hoping to pick up this run as a TPB or HC. Do we know if Marvel's planning anything on that front?<hr></blockquote>

I believe that the first trade of Waid's run is being solicited for April. Here is a link: <a href="http://www.previewsreview.com/resources/0302previews.txt" target="_blank">http://www.previewsreview.com/resources/0302previews.txt</a>

Jake Ivers

01-23-2003, 04:50 PM

[quote]As for where the book is going after 'Unthinkable,' Waid is brief. "Editor Brevoort referred to the next arc as our 'Anti-Authority' story," Waid said. "Make of that what you will."<hr></blockquote>

Oh...I am SO there for that story!

MichaelCoughlin

01-23-2003, 04:51 PM

Waid has been doing really fun things with FF. It's not overly dark and brooding, it's just fun. And I think that's the way FF SHOULD be. A fun comic, but not in a patronizing manner either. I can't wait for this.

Taylor Porter

01-23-2003, 04:53 PM

Then there's this solicitation:

FANTASTIC FOUR #68
Written by Mark Waid, art by Mike Wieringo and Karl Kesel, cover by Wieringo.
"Unthinkable" Part 1 (of 4). Doctor Doom strikes through the FF's weakest link! Now that's fighting dirty.
32 pages, $2.25, on sale April 23.

This comes with a <a href="http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0301/22/ff68.htm" target="_blank">cover image featuring Reed and Sue's daughter</a>.

By the way, I wasn't paying much attention during Pacheco's run, so I don't know much about the new Richards child. Why did they name her Valeria? Is there some connection to Valeria Von Doom, the typical adult-warrior-woman-from-the-future from Claremont's run? Can anyone help me out here?

John Osen

01-23-2003, 04:54 PM

UNTHINKABLE and the flames surrounding Doom could also mean the use of a nucleur weapon.

Buzzowl

01-23-2003, 04:56 PM

DROOL....

JK Parkin

01-23-2003, 05:01 PM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
By the way, I wasn't paying much attention during Pacheco's run, so I don't know much about the new Richards child. Why did they name her Valeria? Is there some connection to Valeria Von Doom, the typical adult-warrior-woman-from-the-future from Claremont's run? Can anyone help me out here?<hr></blockquote>

Johnny Storm enlisted the aid of Dr. Doom to help deliver/save the child while Reed and Ben were off fighting aliens or something ... the catch was, Doom wanted to be able to name the child, so he chose Valeria.

Christopher Davis

01-23-2003, 05:04 PM

For those of you interested in the Tarot card shown in the image, it's the Star. Here's a short description of the card from learntarot.com

"People have always looked to the stars as a source of inspiration and hope. There is something about their twinkling light that draws us out of ourselves and up into a higher plane. When we turn our eyes heavenward, we no longer feel the distress of earth. The Star reminds me of the clear, high voice of a soprano. There is something otherworldly about it. All the harshness and density of everyday life has been refined away leaving only the purest essence. After being exposed to the Star, we feel uplifted and blessed.

In readings, the Star is most welcome when grief and despair have overwhelmed us. In our darkest moments, we need to know that there is hope,that there is light at the end of the tunnel. The Star is the opposite of the Devil who strips us of our faith in the future. Card 17 holds out the promise that we can eventually find peace of mind. The Star also reminds us to open our heart and release our fears and doubt. If you have been holding back in any way, now is the time to give generously.

It is important to remember that the Star is inspiring, but it is not a card of practical solutions or final answers. Truly without hope we can accomplish nothing, but hope is only a beginning. When you see Card 17, know that you are on the right track. Your goals and your aspirations are blessed, but to realize them, you must take positive action. Use the light of the Star to guide you in your efforts."

Mr. Waid, is this close to the meaning you meant to portray?

WoSf

Hdefined

01-23-2003, 05:15 PM

Um, Newsarama? Haven't we seen almost an exact interview like this before? You are a NEWS site, yes? Not a rehash site? I mean, seriously, I feel like this is deja vu here, we've read all these comments before. The pictures are new though, but I don't see why they warrant an all-new yet all-the-same interview.

It's pretty obvious this whole thing is about Doom and magic. Good job keeping it a secret, Waid.

However, is this Doom's "startling new look"? Because . . . gah . . . it's just very unintimidating. Doom's costume was one of the few villain costumes out there that looked GOOD, skirt aside. Actually, the skirt didn't even look bad, it looked Roman kind of, just showed maybe a little too much leg.

However, the cowl, the regal cape, the circles and chains, the belt, the gloves, the boots, and the mask with the bolts around the eyes . . . this is a scary guy. If Hitler dressed like this, he would've scared the crap out of everyone. Doom ain't exactly Hitler, but a more vengeful Caesar, maybe even a little King Minos.

But, that illustration . . . hello Phantom of the Opera. Hello husband of Madame Masque. Hello 20th century Man in the Iron Mask.

Give me a break . . . sure, maybe it's easier for Doom to "blend in", but Doom's never stooped to mingling with locals. And, obviously, Doom isn't JUST about revenge, or else he would've killed the FF way back in issue #6, and if not, then #7. He's not THAT committed, because he hasn't tried hard enough to do things right.

Yeah, well, regardless I'm gonna pick up the first Doom issue. Waid's had some strong ones and some weak ones, so I don't know what to expect. But he's set himself up here by promising a lot, and if he don't deliver . . . then I'm set to do what a newsarama poster does best :)

MarkDrummond

01-23-2003, 05:17 PM

Reed is put in an "unthinkable" position..got it! Doom steals his brain!

Super Skrull

01-23-2003, 05:19 PM

Couldn't stand the art or story in the 9 cents issue (negative, negative, I know, but hey, it's what I thought)...but I'm a Doctor Doom flunkie - I'll be gettin' these for sure!

Buzzowl

01-23-2003, 05:19 PM

[quote]Good job keeping it a secret, Waid.<hr></blockquote>

[quote]You are a NEWS site, yes? Not a rehash site? <hr></blockquote>

[quote]However, is this Doom's "startling new look"? Because . . . gah . . . it's just very unintimidating <hr></blockquote>

[quote] and if he don't deliver . . . then I'm set to do what a newsarama poster does best <hr></blockquote>

Looks to me like you already did.

Monkey in a Wheelchair

01-23-2003, 05:27 PM

from Previews online order form:

SPOT FEB03 1409 FANTASTIC FOUR VOL 1 IMAGINAUTS TP (C: 2) $17.99 = $

I don't know the issues it covers. 61-66, or 61-70 (which would be preferable, for $18.)
-- chip

MattFreakinLittle

01-23-2003, 06:07 PM

Well, I can actually say I give a crap about Dr. Doom now. Congrats, Mr. Waid. I'm on board.

John Jakala

01-23-2003, 06:12 PM

Here's the full solicitation copy for the IMAGINAUTS TPB from <a href="http://www.previewsreview.com/" target="_blank">PreviewsReview.com</a>:
<blockquote>
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL. 1: IMAGINAUTS TPB
COVER BY MIKE WIERINGO
MARK WAID(W)/MIKE WIERINGO, MARK BUCKINGHAM (P)
As Waid & Wieringo are redefining Doctor Doom in the monthly series, get on board their run from the beginning. Learn the truth behind Mister Fantastic's decision to turn his friends into the Fantastic Four. See our heroes face off against a sentient mathematical equation driven mad by love, an infestation of insects from another dimension, a cascading wave of molecular instability, and the Thing on a homicidal rampage that only the Human Torch can stop. Collecting FANTASTIC FOUR Vol. 3, #60-66; and #56 (a special Thing solo tale).
192 PGS./FC/MARVEL PG/….$17.99
</blockquote>

toolverine

01-23-2003, 06:13 PM

Can't wait for the "Bride of Doom" mini starring Madame Masque. Written by Waid and art provided by Udon, of course. ;)

mr mainstream

01-23-2003, 06:18 PM

Reed and Sue have a daughter !!!!!!!

I don't read FF, but I would have thought this event might have got at least some coverage in the comics world.

I think this just goes to show my only gripe about the new improved Marvel.......hardly any interaction within the Marvel Universe.

It's been a breath of fresh air to see Thor, Iron Man and The Avengers in a mini-crossover recently.
And since when did everyone know that Tony Stark was Iron Man ?
Is it just me who's out of the loop, or does anyone else feel "isolated" within their chosen Marvel comic reads ?

I read Spiderman, Thor, X-Men, X-Statics, Punisher and the odd other Marvel title...so how come I didn't know about Valeria Reed and Tony Starks "outing" ?

gOgIver

01-23-2003, 06:38 PM

C'mon Doom loves Valeria he would not kill her. Maybe kidnap her and turn her against her family.

But the title is "Unthinkable" so maybe Doom has his way the Invisible Girl. God I hope not. That would be unthinkable.

BlakSun

01-23-2003, 06:53 PM

I love Doomie's new look....

Fan4Fan

01-23-2003, 06:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by John Jakala:
Here's the full solicitation copy for the IMAGINAUTS TPB from <a href="http://www.previewsreview.com/" target="_blank">PreviewsReview.com</a>:
<blockquote>
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL. 1: IMAGINAUTS TPB
COVER BY MIKE WIERINGO
MARK WAID(W)/MIKE WIERINGO, MARK BUCKINGHAM (P)
As Waid & Wieringo are redefining Doctor Doom in the monthly series, get on board their run from the beginning. Learn the truth behind Mister Fantastic's decision to turn his friends into the Fantastic Four. See our heroes face off against a sentient mathematical equation driven mad by love, an infestation of insects from another dimension, a cascading wave of molecular instability, and the Thing on a homicidal rampage that only the Human Torch can stop. Collecting FANTASTIC FOUR Vol. 3, #60-66; and #56 (a special Thing solo tale).
192 PGS./FC/MARVEL PG/….$17.99
</blockquote><hr></blockquote>

I'm intrigued about why they're including #56. It is a good story (and the only one FF I picked up since Annual '98), but it is different in tone from the rest of the collection, seems to me.

Thanks,
Fan4Fan

01-23-2003, 07:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mr mainstream:
Reed and Sue have a daughter !!!!!!!

I don't read FF, but I would have thought this event might have got at least some coverage in the comics world.<hr></blockquote>

...The reason it didn't was that the comics world got burned by the same birth during Byrne's run on the book. Quite a few people expected it to happen again, but some of us were rather vocal about the matter, and made it clear to the creative team at the time that this was a chance to correct Byrne's one fuckup during his run and flip off Mike Carlin - the editor who approved the story and insisted the gender of the kid would remain a "fetus" - at the same time.

tralfaz

01-23-2003, 07:13 PM

Dr Doom becomes the new Destro and takes over the world with COBRA!!!!!

MindTricked

01-23-2003, 07:26 PM

Doom. Woohoo! Doom "possesses" lil Valeria (Von Doom). Doom steals/hampers/whatever Reed's mind/brain/though process. Doom saying "BAH!" and "Curse you, Richards!" Doom is, when handled correctly, one of the best villains ever, period (as is Magneto - he ain't really dead, y'know). I'm looking forward to this. Oh - and Ringo doing dark and grim - he is managing to convey some menace there, isn't he?

can1

01-23-2003, 08:41 PM

And he is not afraid to cry sniff, sniff

jclem3

01-23-2003, 10:00 PM

I like the concept of "Unthinkable." Dr. Doom has been staid for the past two decades in terms of just what he can do so it will be interesting to see just what new aspects of him Waid can introduce.

If it shakes up the FF (not like your run-of-the-mill "the FF will never be the same" announcement) then it must be good.

Graeme McMillan

01-23-2003, 10:13 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MarkDrummond:
Reed is put in an "unthinkable" position..got it! Doom steals his brain!<hr></blockquote>

I don't think you're too far wrong. Okay, maybe not stealing his brain, but putting him in some situation where he can't think straight, or he loses his intellect, or something like that, maybe...

Michael Mayket

01-23-2003, 10:13 PM

One weapon in Doom's arsenal that he's had since like Fantastic Four #10 or so (not sure of exact issue # off the top of my head, and was used later by Byrne, is the ability to transfer his consciousness into someone else's body. I don't believe he's ever used it as an offensive weapon. While I've never really understood all the comic book "mechanics" of it, since I was a kid I've wondered how he could use it to really screw with the FF's heads.

Loren

01-23-2003, 11:54 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Fan4Fan:

I'm intrigued about why they're including #56. It is a good story (and the only one FF I picked up since Annual '98), but it is different in tone from the rest of the collection, seems to me.
<hr></blockquote>

That was the issue in which Kesel (finally) revealed that Ben was Jewish. The story even got picked up by some mainstream media, which isn't exactly common for the FF. I haven't read it, but it seems like an appropriate issue to reprint for fans.

And if anyone missed it the first time 'round, Leonard Pitts of the Miami Herald wrote a very nice column about Ben's faith. You can read it at <a href="http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/leonard_pitts/3559109.htm" target="_blank">http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/leonard_pitts/3559109.htm</a> .

Loren

Roast Beef

01-24-2003, 12:03 AM

All right. I have never read a Fantastic Four comic in my life (wait, I did read one with the "new" Fantastic Four -- Wolverine et al.), but this story sounds great. I am ALL ABOUT big epic collisions of will. But I have a question.

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:

This comes with a <a href="http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0301/22/ff68.htm" target="_blank">cover image featuring Reed and Sue's daughter</a>.<hr></blockquote>

Is that seriously the Fantastic Four logo? Seriously? That is hands-down the worst logo of anything I have ever seen. It looks like the sign hanging over the door of some odd juice-bar / kids' after-school hangout on a tv show like Saved By the Bell or Power Rangers. Seriously... what is up with that logo?

MichaelCoughlin

01-24-2003, 12:12 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:
Um, Newsarama? Haven't we seen almost an exact interview like this before? You are a NEWS site, yes? Not a rehash site? I mean, seriously, I feel like this is deja vu here, we've read all these comments before<hr></blockquote>

Leave. Please just leave. It makes no sense to come to a site, willingly. Open a link, willingly. And then complain about having wasted that previous 2 seconds of your life. To boot, you then added an extremely long post full of gripes. No one forces you to come to this site. Matt does a freaking AMAZING job with this place, so please leave.

Hdefined

01-24-2003, 12:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:


Leave. Please just leave. It makes no sense to come to a site, willingly. Open a link, willingly. And then complain about having wasted that previous 2 seconds of your life. To boot, you then added an extremely long post full of gripes. No one forces you to come to this site. Matt does a freaking AMAZING job with this place, so please leave.<hr></blockquote>

Now, how else would I know about the article unless I opened the page and read it? And I didn't ask for my time back, I just hope in the future they report "news" (notice the subtley-placed word NEW within the word NEWS?)

DarthRandall

01-24-2003, 01:23 AM

I haven't read a regular FF comic since the sub-standard run with Ben and Johnny were the only original members on the team (I think it was around the 300s somewhere). I was young and thought they were good then.

Now, however, having read all of Waid's issues, I know what a good Fantastic Four comic can be. It's one of the highlights of the month for me, and I can't wait to see his take on Doom. This is gonna be good, folks. Don't knock it until you've seen it.

shj81

01-24-2003, 01:49 AM

Doc Doom buys out Fantastic Four Inc. and f*cks with their heads for an extended period of time!!! no film at 11.

could be a very interesting premise for a story...the new issues have been very good so far so heres for the best

DrDoom

01-24-2003, 05:39 AM

nuff said :)

jharper

01-24-2003, 06:27 AM

[quote]Originally posted by OM:


...The reason it didn't was that the comics world got burned by the same birth during Byrne's run on the book. Quite a few people expected it to happen again, but some of us were rather vocal about the matter, and made it clear to the creative team at the time that this was a chance to correct Byrne's one f***up during his run and flip off Mike Carlin - the editor who approved the story and insisted the gender of the kid would remain a "fetus" - at the same time.<hr></blockquote>

This is a perfect example of where comics have gone wrong. The original story happened 20 years ago, so to see a new story as a chance to correct a 'f***up' and flip off Mike Carlin is ridiculous. I bet Mike Carlin couldn't give a monkey's!

Where does this vehemence about this story come from, anyway? For me this was a superb story about failure and personal tragedy, a perfect counterpoint to Franklin's birth. Reed isn't and can't do everything. Feh!

Simon DelMonte

01-24-2003, 06:39 AM

Waid has slowly won me over after a good start but one that left me unhappy with his take on Johnny and Sue. I'm starting to see what he's doing, and starting to enjoy it without spending my time comparing this version with others.

But this story sounds like it will be Waid at his most twisted. Could be great, or it could be rough. Either way, I'm looking forward to it.

Nightcrawler

01-24-2003, 08:38 AM

I'm still not sure where I stand on this book. Waid seems kind of hit and miss with the characters; his portrayal of Reed is unconventional, but believable, whereas his portrayal of Johnny seems to forget the fact that he's been the Torch for ten years now.

Elroy the Cat

01-24-2003, 09:18 AM

I like the "casual Doom" look.

As for the plot, well, I don't want to think about it too much, I'd rather be surprised.

Warren V. Wind

01-24-2003, 09:23 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jharper:

Where does this vehemence about this story come from, anyway? For me this was a superb story about failure and personal tragedy, a perfect counterpoint to Franklin's birth. Reed isn't and can't do everything. Feh!<hr></blockquote>

I can tell you where it comes from...
The prevalance lately of bashing anything related to John Byrne. I guess you can't think for yourself and speak your mind about anything anymore without people lashing out at you.
I thought this was America, you know Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.
Does this ring a bell with anyone???

The original story was a very poignant and moving story. A classic moment in FF history.

This "Unthinkable" storyline looks to have Doom possessing the baby Valeria to plot the down fall of Reed and the FF.
That's all it better be, because if it's anything like child abuse or worse, Waid will have crossed a line that really shouldn't be crossed.
I also hope that it isn't any abduction storyline like they did in Amazing Spiderman with Peter's and Mary Jane's baby.
That would be "Been There, Done That" Boring!!!!

tralfaz

01-24-2003, 09:25 AM

[quote]Originally posted by MichaelCoughlin:


Leave. Please just leave. It makes no sense to come to a site, willingly. Open a link, willingly. And then complain about having wasted that previous 2 seconds of your life. To boot, you then added an extremely long post full of gripes. No one forces you to come to this site. Matt does a freaking AMAZING job with this place, so please leave.<hr></blockquote>

it amuses me that you have a gripe about someone that gripes yet you tell people to leave because they gripe.... and on top of that you have a gripe as your signture... something about reregistering. God I hated doing that too.

and no one forces you to read their gripes. So gripe all you want my brothers and sisters

Nightcrawler

01-24-2003, 09:56 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Warren V. Wind:


This "Unthinkable" storyline looks to have Doom possessing the baby Valeria to plot the down fall of Reed and the FF.
<hr></blockquote>

Dunno... in Pacheco's final issue Doom stated that he would put Valeria under his own royal protection. Not that that neccessarily means much -- several elements of Pacheco's run have already been ditched by Waid anyway. Grrr.

JimHughs4

01-24-2003, 10:24 AM

First thing that came into my mind on this...Doom takes a page from Arthurian legend and a) puts himself into Reed's body to sleep with Sue or b) uses magic to make himself look like Reed for the same reason. THAT'S the way to destroy Reed Richards. But I know Iwouldn't want to write that comic... JH

swol

01-24-2003, 11:36 AM

This definitely has me hooked.

Think about it, if anybody did anything to your child,(let alone an infant), there is no way in Hell you could think straight. That may be part of the plot.

BTW, did Dooom ever get his mother out of Hell? If not, perhaps posssessing Valeria with his mothers sould while consigning the child to Hell would slo be pretty Unthinkable.

There is a new Doctor Doom in town it seems and he is EVIL. No more Doctor Doom as a hero in his own mind as shown in the secret wars stories and during a lot of the last couple decades.

Now if they can do the same to Magneto and the Red Skull you could really shake up the Marvel Universe. (Yeah, Magneto's dead...sure he is).

rundownthewayup

01-24-2003, 11:44 AM

Two thoughts. One) I'm sure the "new look" for Doom is just him out of costume. I mean, come on, he can't really walk into a hotel room, and expect to be taking seriously, or incognito, if he's wearing his usual big ole' costume! And he wears it on the cover, so I'm sure this is just "Doom out of costume". It makes sense he'd still wear his mask, too. Two) Pacheco is one AMAZING artist, I give him that; his stuff blows me away. But his writing on FF was rather horrid. And even when they brought in someone to help him out, it got worse. That's Abraxas storyline was so undecipherable! He started out really well with the first storyline, and then, after the "space pilgrim" stuff; it just plunged. I didn't even pick up that last issue (which I might dig up now.) cause it had just gotten so bad. I do feel bad for him, cause he really loved the title; but he just couldn't do it justice. So I'll give Waid a chance here!

DrDoom

01-24-2003, 12:57 PM

I believe to that DrDoom is becoming back to his roots; In Onslaught he was trying to save the world because Franklin Richards was in the way...
Reed Richards doesn't know DrDoom uses magic so that makes it UNTHINKABLE because he believes always in science and Magic isn't science so he can't figure it out; Remember from whom DrDoom got the magic from (from his mom and from Drstrange)
(Triumph and Torment with DrStrange and DrDoom vs Mephisto)
Although he told Drstrange he would never use magic for power, I believe this DrDoom is back from his old origins ; Maybe the adventure he had on his planet (Planet Doom) has given him a brainwashing for the worse...

Robin MacNeil

01-24-2003, 01:12 PM

Help. Confused.

[quote]Originally posted by OM:


...The reason it didn't was that the comics world got burned by the same birth during Byrne's run on the book. <hr></blockquote>

I remember reading Byrne's run, but didn't Sue have a miscarriage? When Reed asked Doctor Octopus for help, but it was too late?

[quote]


...Quite a few people expected it to happen again...this was a chance to correct Byrne's one fuckup during his run...Mike Carlin (snip) insisted the gender of the kid would remain a "fetus"...<hr></blockquote>

Huh? So *what* exactly was Byrne's fuckup? And what's this about a fetus?

Clearly I've forgotten or missed something since then!

RM.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

AForceOfOne

01-24-2003, 01:12 PM

[quote]Originally posted by rundownthewayup:
Two thoughts. One) I'm sure the "new look" for Doom is just him out of costume. I mean, come on, he can't really walk into a hotel room, and expect to be taking seriously, or incognito, if he's wearing his usual big ole' costume! And he wears it on the cover, so I'm sure this is just "Doom out of costume". It makes sense he'd still wear his mask, too. Two) Pacheco is one AMAZING artist, I give him that; his stuff blows me away. But his writing on FF was rather horrid. And even when they brought in someone to help him out, it got worse. That's Abraxas storyline was so undecipherable! He started out really well with the first storyline, and then, after the "space pilgrim" stuff; it just plunged. I didn't even pick up that last issue (which I might dig up now.) cause it had just gotten so bad. I do feel bad for him, cause he really loved the title; but he just couldn't do it justice. So I'll give Waid a chance here!<hr></blockquote>

My thoughts exactly. I was waiting for the trade of the run so far but I may get this storyline. It just looks and feels like an all around good read.

samnoir

01-24-2003, 01:42 PM

The often missed detail of Doom is his knowledge of sorcery and his failure to save his mother's soul from the clutches of the demon Mephisto. Wasn't he attempting experiments that would help him with his quest when he encountered Reed during college? This was later resolved in the Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom graphic novel.

I haven't followed the title in years, but I'm not sure that anyone has really explored his knowledge into the dark arts as well as his mother and failure to save her as a strong theme in recent memory.

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Christopher Davis

01-24-2003, 03:10 PM

Wow, everyone is so violent here. Didn't anyone ever consider that Reed and Vic may sit down to a rough game of Go Fish? :D

RoSF

Wade @ Sighnub.com

01-24-2003, 03:16 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MarkDrummond:
Reed is put in an "unthinkable" position..got it! Doom steals his brain!<hr></blockquote>

I think you are pretty close. Can you say Mystical Lobotomy?

I knew you could!

Be my neighbor!

Jim

01-24-2003, 03:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by gOgIver:
C'mon Doom loves Valeria he would not kill her. Maybe kidnap her and turn her against her family.

But the title is "Unthinkable" so maybe Doom has his way the Invisible Girl. God I hope not. That would be unthinkable.<hr></blockquote>

One power Doom as which he has used only twice (I think) is a mind/body switch. Given the shot we've seen of Valeria with power leaking out her eyes... is it Unthinkable that Doom would use a child (and one presumably named after his mother), even kill a child, to attack the Four?

(After Luthor has been willing to use Lena recently, no, probably not especially "unthinkable". Alas.)

Cyberleader

01-24-2003, 03:51 PM

I've never liked the Fantastic Four. Conversely, I don't think anyone can dislike Doom(As a villain. Not a person. I think you'd have to be a little off if you actually liked Doom in a "I wonder what he's like in real life, we should go for a coffee some time" sort of way. I mean, for starters, he's a fictional character). This just might get me to do something that I haven't in, well, ever: buy an FF book.

[quote]Reed and Sue have a daughter !!!!!!! <hr></blockquote>

My thoughts exactly. But with more ???????. Remember when one of the cool things about Marvel was the tight continuity between titles? wasn't that one of Stan Lee's original ideas, that something happening in Daredevil might affect SPider-man, or the Avengers would hear about something the FF had done? Whatever happened to that? would it be so hard to tell everyone that the characters in other books should at least ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that there's a giant mythological city above there heads? How hard is it to tell the artist on, idunno, Spider-Man to sketch in a little blob with some buildings on it in the skyline?

And I have to agree with other posters that Doom isn't solely motivated by revenge. He is in many ways an honourable man, and I for one have always preferred the view of Latveria as a sort of rustic Utopia rather than the dark, oppressive Latveria so many writers like to portray it as. A comic character without clear-cut good/evil morality? perish the thought! People might start to respect the medium. ;)

DrDoom

01-24-2003, 05:52 PM

No clear division between good and evil? How evil is the guy? On the mutiple occasions that he put his finger at the FF that is quite evil for me...
Even if they save him he comes back for more...
He even selfdetonated his armor when he asked Reed Richards to help him a hand who tried to save him...is this evil enough? Then they were "saved" by Hyperstorm (FF v1 481) at the same time

Btw the FF had alread a adventure with the Avengers waay back in FF vs the Avengers
(vs DrDoom); And the Avengers have already faced him in Emperor Doom...nough said..

Cyberleader

01-24-2003, 06:10 PM

Yeah, he's evil. He's just about the most evil character in the the Marvel universe. But just being a b*stard isn't what makes him a great character. The fact that he's evil but still maintains his own sense of honour, and maintains a peaceful, crime-free country for his people(I know, it depends on who's writting and what his opinion on Doom is. The exact state of Latveria is one of the most inconsistent pieces of continuity in comics). I guess the question is which is more important to the bad Doctor: his own morality or his hatred for Reed. Depending on how it's handled, a really vicious, underhanded attack by Doom against the FF could make a great read. But if it compromises (what I perceive to be) Doom's personal code of honour, then I personally won't enjoy it.

But, that said, it is fun when villains go the extra mile to be REALLY nasty to the heroes. Some of the Green Goblin stuff in the Spider-books from the end of the Clone debacle up to the 'Gathering of Five' storyline was really great. If Mr. Waid can do for von Doom what the writers' on those books did for Norman, I will be a very happy camper.

Poops McGee

01-24-2003, 07:08 PM

I've got it!

maybe by placing her under his royal protection Doom feels that he is intitled to raise Valeria or something.

well he kidnaps her (thats why he goes to the hotel or whatever that place was) and somehow gets his mothers soul from hell and fuses it with Valeria and keeps her under his...royal protection so he can have his mother.

willyd

01-24-2003, 07:20 PM

Just an idle question here, but I hate the way Mike W. draws the Thing as just a touch taller than Reed and Johnny (although quite a bit thicker). Isn't he supposed to be just under the height of the Hulk, which is (these days) somewhere north of 7 feet tall?

Also, I'd love a summary up to now of the whole Dr. Doom rescuing his mother deal, including him using Franklin against Mephisto and the whole Dr. Doom / Dr. Strange graphic novel...

Edward J Cunningham

01-24-2003, 07:23 PM

A friend of mine at Comicboards' Fantastic Four message board has an idea which sounds quite plausible. Doom uses magic to make Valeria attack the team, and Reed is forced to give her to Doom. This causes a rift between Reed and both Sue and Johnny, while Ben is helplessly caught in the middle. I think this is plausible because while it doesn't involve killing a child, this scenario would be just as emotionally wrenching as if Val were actually dead. And Doom will technically be keeping his word not to harm Valeria and be her protector.

But there's one other scenario that may also play out, although I doubt Waid will go down this route. Doom has sworn an oath not to harm Valeria and be her protector---but he has made no such oath about Franklin. What if Franklin gets killed in this storyline?

Eddie

<a href="http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfour/" target="_blank">Fantastic Four Message Board</a>
<a href="http://www.femfour.com" target="_blank">Fem Four: The World's Greatest Female Comic Book Team!</a>

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Old Timey Marvel Fan

01-24-2003, 08:29 PM

Issue 65 of the FF hits a real home run. This one finally finds a nice balance of elements in the story, the art on Ben Grimm is fantastic. The story carries hmour and surprise throughout. The first couple of the Waid/Buckingham efforts left me a little unfulfilled. This latest one does not. If you are not on board with this book, this is the best reason to jump on. Come on in, the waters fine!

01-25-2003, 01:06 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Robin MacNeil:
Huh? So *what* exactly was Byrne's fuckup? And what's this about a fetus?<hr></blockquote>

...Ok, since I've gone over this about five times in the past two years on Newsarama alone, here's the nutshell version: Sue's 2nd pregnancy occurred when comics fandom has just learned what usenet was, and when BBS sysops around the country started gatewaying(*) their proprietary networks - FiDOPEnet, WWIVnet, etc - with usenet. This resulted in a lot of interconnection between FF fans, and a LOT of speculation ensued as to whether it would be a boy or a girl. As you can guess, it became a very heated - but fun, mind you - arguement, and several dozen publicized betting pools were set up to guess the baby's birth issue, gender, and even weight if Byrne decided to listen to those writing in asking him to write in that fact.

And then he went and wrote Sue as having a miscarraige, and he didn't even reveal whether it was a boy or a girl.

...Needless to say, all hell broke loose. Fans vowed to lynch Byrne if they ever met him, but even more fans directed their fury at Mike Carlin, who admitted at conventions afterwards that it was his decision and not Byrne's to keep the gender a mystery. "It was a fetus, it was stillborn, so what difference does it make whether it was a boy or a girl?" was his usual response, and needless to say it wasn't well received.

...By the time Carlin was over at DC helping Byrne revamp Superman and helping fuckup the Legion - but that's another story - the baby was revealed in the pages of What If? as being a girl, but it did little to resolve a lot of hurt feelings over a botched ending to a storyline that gave readers in the 80's the chance to experience the same feelings readers did almost two decades earlier when Franklin was in the oven. On the other hand, had Mary Jane not been around when Gwen Stacy demonstrated the dangers of bungee jumping 30 years before it became a big deal, the same sort of denoument would have probably hit Marvel back then as well.

So that's it in a nutshell. Byrne's one fuckup during that run. Hope this helps...

(*) On a side note, Cat Yronwode's true claim to infamy was her destruction of the utexas gateway, a fido-usenet gateway run gratis by Texas U. Cat complained to some admin regarding some harsh criticisms made against her and the problems Eclipse was having at the time. Cat included the words "I hereby formally request" in her request for information, which in legalese means "gimme what I want or I'm going to sue your ass!". Texas U shut down the gateway, but not before telling the entire world why, and who was responsible. IIRC, Cat ended up having to get at least four new e-mail addresses before the furor died down, and got chewed out when she bothered to show up at conventions.

Elroy the Cat

01-25-2003, 05:51 AM

So the people angry with Byrne were comic book gamblers?

The issue where Sue loses her baby is one of the best comics I ever read- it threw my young mind for a loop.

Iron Maiden

01-25-2003, 06:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Elroy the Cat:
So the people angry with Byrne were comic book gamblers?

The issue where Sue loses her baby is one of the best comics I ever read- it threw my young mind for a loop.<hr></blockquote>

Now that I read his "justification", all I can say is what a tempest in a teapot, plus it points out the hubris of some internet fans. Did it ever occur to these gamblers that there might have actually been a point to the story other than their juvenile betting pool? As a female fan, I thought this was one FF story that really struck me as poignant and realistic. In real life, sometimes the parents would rather not have known the gender of the child, or make it public. It is too painful and sometimes kept private. It was only years later that the child was referred to as female named Valerie Meaghan Richards in FF#24 volume 3, and just looking at the document from the hospital still brought Sue to tears.

Buzzowl

01-25-2003, 09:38 AM

I agree 100% with Iron Maiden. When I read this story, I was a kid in the country, not yet an "interconnected" fan.

It was tragic. It was touching. It was the most amazing thing I had seen in comics to that point.

A terrible thing happend to my favorite characters, indicating to me something that I suppose should have been obvious: "Terrible things happen, even to people go are good."

I guess "interconnected" fans on the newsboards were too busy trying to figure out what was going to happen to actually enjoy the story on its own terms.

That's not Byrne's "fuckup" at all.

ralaven

01-25-2003, 09:47 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Buzzowl:
I agree 100% with Iron Maiden. When I read this story, I was a kid in the country, not yet an "interconnected" fan.

It was tragic. It was touching. It was the most amazing thing I had seen in comics to that point.

A terrible thing happend to my favorite characters, indicating to me something that I suppose should have been obvious: "Terrible things happen, even to people go are good."

I guess "interconnected" fans on the newsboards were too busy trying to figure out what was going to happen to actually enjoy the story on its own terms.

That's not Byrne's "fuckup" at all.<hr></blockquote>

I completely agree. Having read OM's 'justifiaction' it's even more clear what stupid arrogant posters were on usenet and have transferred over to Newsarama. The story was great, the pay-off superb and you're annoyed about not knowing what sex it was. What a sad b'Stard. The fact that so much interest was focussed on the story should have made peole realize how well plotted the storyline was. I've seen some stupid arrogant attitudes but this takes the biscuit

Christopher Davis

01-25-2003, 10:56 AM

[quote]Originally posted by ralaven:


I completely agree. Having read OM's 'justifiaction' it's even more clear what stupid arrogant posters were on usenet and have transferred over to Newsarama. The story was great, the pay-off superb and you're annoyed about not knowing what sex it was. What a sad b'Stard. The fact that so much interest was focussed on the story should have made peole realize how well plotted the storyline was. I've seen some stupid arrogant attitudes but this takes the biscuit<hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry, I had no idea that stating your opinion about a storyline was stupid and/or arrogant. I'm sure OM and me and will remember in the future that everyone except Ralaven's opinions are stupid, do not matter, and should NOT be aired anywhere, and certainly not posted on a message board devoted just for that!

And calling another poster stupid/arrogant is certainly not as bad as stating your opinion of a storyline.

All hail Ralaven, whose ideas are not stupid or arrogant. Let's all remember to shut up so we don't disturb him/her.

WoSF

01-25-2003, 01:37 PM

[quote]Originally posted by ralaven:
...it's even more clear what stupid arrogant posters were on usenet and have transferred over to Newsarama. <hr></blockquote>

...Pot. Kettle. Black.

[quote]Originally posted by ralaven:
The story was great, the pay-off superb and you're annoyed about not knowing what sex it was. <hr></blockquote>

...Typical. So busy trying to act like "Mr. I Know More Than You" that you miss the entire point. It wasn't just about betting pools, it was about a buildup for a special event that deserved to happen, not get the rug yanked out from under it just to play for pathos.

[quote]Originally posted by ralaven:
I've seen some stupid arrogant attitudes but this takes the biscuit<hr></blockquote>

...And you're not being arrogant here?

Yep. Pot. Kettle. Extreme Black.

Robin MacNeil

01-25-2003, 01:39 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, OM. Sounds like it was pretty heated at the time, in USENET circles. For them not to discuss the sex of the baby was a poor way to treat a serious subject. Anyone who has gone through a miscarriage knows that a lost baby is not "just a fetus"... comments like that are only by people who don't know better.

RM. (father of five... so in this case I *do* know better)

Nightcrawler

01-25-2003, 01:51 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Cyberleader:
 it is fun when villains go the extra mile to be REALLY nasty to the heroes. Some of the Green Goblin stuff in the Spider-books from the end of the Clone debacle up to the 'Gathering of Five' storyline was really great.<hr></blockquote>

Personally I didn't like that. There's something really lame about bringing back a guy who has been dead for twentysomething years and immediately making him the no1 villian, while gutlessley killing off a great support character (yes, I did like Ben Reilly) to do it. The whole thing (especially Gathering of Five) was a huuuge cop-out, and despite Mackie giving some fair reasons on spidermancrawlspace a while back, just symbolises what is wrong in comic-writing these days.

amazon

01-25-2003, 02:28 PM

I agree somewhat with RALaven, there’s a lot of self-importance on this board, which can easily be construed as arrogance.

Look at OM’s comments
>>...The reason it didn't was that the comics world got burned by the same birth during Byrne's run on the book. Quite a few people expected it to happen again, but some of us were rather vocal about the matter, and made it clear to the creative team at the time that this was a chance to correct Byrne's one fuckup during his run and flip off Mike Carlin - the editor who approved the story and insisted the gender of the kid would remain a "fetus" - at the same time.>>

If that’s not self-importance I don’t know what is – This comes over as “Telling the creative team what to do”

Next comment:
>>Ok, since I've gone over this about five times in the past two years on Newsarama alone, here's the nutshell version>>

More self importance why not just answer the question?

>>Sue's 2nd pregnancy occurred when comics fandom has just learned what usenet was……. This resulted in a lot of interconnection between FF fans, and a LOT of speculation ensued as to whether it would be a boy or a girl. As you can guess, it became a very heated - but fun, mind you - arguement, and several dozen publicized betting pools were set up to guess the baby's birth issue, gender, and even weight if Byrne decided to listen to those writing in asking him to write in that fact. >>

Byrne ‘decided to listen’. The story was planned from the start, he’s the writer you’re the fan.

>>And then he went and wrote Sue as having a miscarraige, and he didn't even reveal whether it was a boy or a girl. ...Needless to say, all hell broke loose. Fans vowed to lynch Byrne if they ever met him>>

Missing the point of the story methinks

>>, but even more fans directed their fury at Mike Carlin, who admitted at conventions afterwards that it was his decision and not Byrne's to keep the gender a mystery. "It was a fetus, it was stillborn, so what difference does it make whether it was a boy or a girl?" was his usual response, and needless to say it wasn't well received>>

Why does it matter so much, it’s not a real baby!And i have had friends with miscarriages who have NOT wanted to know the sex so it does work both ways.

>>The baby was revealed in the pages of What If? as being a girl, but it did little to resolve a lot of hurt feelings over a botched ending to a storyline that gave readers in the 80's the chance to experience the same feelings readers did almost two decades earlier when Franklin was in the oven.>>

Why should it be the same. That was the point of the story. Throughout the issue you keep thinking it’s going to go the same way as the FF annual but it doesn’t. I can understand you not liking the story but to feel so personally aggrieved and vindictive is sad. I didn’t like Colossus being killed but I don’t feel personally aggrieved.

This links in with Reader of SciFi who also missed the point.

>>I'm sorry, I had no idea that stating your opinion about a storyline was stupid and/or arrogant<<

Stating your opinion is fine, it’s when its written with the feeling that there can be no other reasonable opinion that it’s self-important

OM’s response:
>>It wasn't just about betting pools, it was about a buildup for a special event that deserved to happen, not get the rug yanked out from under it just to play for pathos.<<

It wasn’t just to play for pathos, that was the point of the story. It didn’t deserve to happen. You’d have liked it to happen that’s completely different.

Originally posted by ralaven:
I've seen some stupid arrogant attitudes but this takes the biscuit

OM's response
>>...And you're not being arrogant here?
Yep. Pot. Kettle. Extreme Black.<<

Nice to see OM admitting he’s arrogant :D . I think ralaven overstates the case and doesn’t phrase himself well (typical trolling behaviour), but he’s not fundamentally wrong. Comics are in trouble with the best sellers selling less than 100K. Much of this is due to fans wanting things their way and not accepting anything else. That’s self-importance. If we’re going to get out of the ghetto there’s got to be a lot less negativity

Joe Kilmartin

01-25-2003, 10:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mr mainstream:
Reed and Sue have a daughter !!!!!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Yep, for almost a year now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mr mainstream:

I don't read FF, but I would have thought this event might have got at least some coverage in the comics world.
<hr /></blockquote>There was a time that it would have (oh, about 10 years ago, when comics news talked about what was happening in the stories rather than a lot of bitching about who was writing what and how they're not as clever as the person writing in to complain...). Nowadays they're too busy griping about the "blatent attempts being made to get attention" by companies releasing press releases intended to help them sell comics.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mr mainstream:

I think this just goes to show my only gripe about the new improved Marvel.......hardly any interaction within the Marvel Universe.
<hr /></blockquote>There's plenty of interaction - it happens between titles that have a reason to have it happen. If you read ALIAS or DAREDEVIL you know that the two books have been as close as a pair of crossed fingers for quite awhile now. If it serves the story, then they interconnect. If it doesn't make any sense for Spider-Man to say "Oh yeah, Reed and Sue have a new baby" (and why should it?), then it doesn't happen.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mr mainstream:

It's been a breath of fresh air to see Thor, Iron Man and The Avengers in a mini-crossover recently.
And since when did everyone know that Tony Stark was Iron Man ?
<hr /></blockquote>Again, for almost a year now. Right around the time Cap went public and Daredevil was "outted" as Matt Murdock.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mr mainstream:

Is it just me who's out of the loop, or does anyone else feel "isolated" within their chosen Marvel comic reads ?

I read Spiderman, Thor, X-Men, X-Statics, Punisher and the odd other Marvel title...so how come I didn't know about Valeria Reed and Tony Starks "outing" ? <hr /></blockquote>That would be Valeria Richards, I think. Why should you have to read an Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man, Punisher or X-Statics comic to know what was happening in the private lives of the characters in a Fantastic Four comic?

Why don't you just pick up a copy of the FF and read that?

That's what I think one of the problems with comics fandom is today. People seem to assume that the books will keep coming out if they don't buy them to see what's going on. If you don't care, that's one thing (and that's perfectly fine), but even then I don't think you'd be griping about missing stuff if that was the case, IMHO.

BTW: Valeria and her background was mentioned in the 9 cent FF comic. You couldn't spring 9 cents for a comic?

Whatever.

Joe

Joe Kilmartin

01-25-2003, 11:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Warren V. Wind:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jharper:

Where does this vehemence about this story come from, anyway? For me this was a superb story about failure and personal tragedy, a perfect counterpoint to Franklin's birth. Reed isn't and can't do everything. Feh!<hr /></blockquote>I can tell you where it comes from...
The prevalance lately of bashing anything related to John Byrne. I guess you can't think for yourself and speak your mind about anything anymore without people lashing out at you.
I thought this was America, you know Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.
Does this ring a bell with anyone???
<hr /></blockquote>The original story was a very poignant and moving story. A classic moment in FF history.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

There's not a lot of Mr Byrne's stuff that has suited my fancy lately, but I agree that the issue in question that you've mentioned was one of the best he wrote during his tenure on the book.

You forget that *this* is not America. *This* is Newsarama's Bulletin Boards. Land of the free? Nah.. Land of the Squeeky Wheel. What's worse is that's what people seem to want it to be.

Joe

Nightcrawler

01-26-2003, 11:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Joe Kilmartin:
If it doesn't make any sense for Spider-Man to say "Oh yeah, Reed and Sue have a new baby" (and why should it?), then it doesn't happen.

<hr /></blockquote>True, but if Spidey is such good friends with the Torch, maybe we would have seen the FF in a Spidey issue recently (instead, we got a page-long appearance, which I admit was a nice touch, about a year ago). I understood that guest appearances are often the tool of desperate writers (look at early Vol.2 Spider-Man) but sometimes there are events that are too big to go unrecognised. For example, wouldnt the events in Thor (ie. the arrival of Asgard over NYC) have an impact on just about every superhero who operates in that area? How did other superheroes operate during the Kang War? What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? etc etc.

Iron Maiden

01-26-2003, 11:35 AM

Well, to get back to the main story...

Here is another exercise in idle speculation. I have been intrigued by what is being shown in the fortune-telling and tarot reading panels. First off, it shows to me that Doom is looking for some kind of "sign" or direction in his life. Does he truly believe that his "life-path" as Waid called it, is pre-ordained? Surely, the side of him that embraced the ways of science would rebel against that notion. Yet, we see in the hotel room that he has cast out all the trappings of modern day technology from the room.

As for the palm reading, if we are to assume that Doom is right-handed, by reading the left hand the forturne teller is trying to divine how you were born to be, your destiny so to speak. were. The dominant hand would tell the present. It is hard to tell from the panel, but if that is supposed to be the heart line, it looks like the fortunte teller is pointing to a break in the line, which some readers would tell you means a disappointment in love or friendship. The same could be said if it was the life line, a break there does not necessarily imply an early death, but an interruption. Of course, Doom has come "back from the dead" around the time of the Secret Wars, since he was not in his true body for a period of time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

The Star in the Tarot deck was explained earlier in another post. Maybe this unused power Waid talks about ties into his very name. The word "doom" is frequently synonymous fate or destiny. This could be another play on words; Doom plans to effect changes in the lives of the FF using some kind of power to manipulate their fate.

Tom Daylight

01-26-2003, 01:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mr mainstream:
I read Spiderman, Thor, X-Men, X-Statics, Punisher and the odd other Marvel title...so how come I didn't know about Valeria Reed and Tony Starks "outing" ?<hr /></blockquote>Simple: you're not reading Fantastic Four or Iron Man.

01-26-2003, 03:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by amazon:
 If we’re going to get out of the ghetto there’s got to be a lot less negativity<hr /></blockquote>...Coming from an obvious sheep like yourself, this statement almost cones as no surprise. By that reckoning, you're calling for simply accepting the ghetto for what it is, and just making the best of it rather than rebelling against the conditions and either forcing improvement or escaping altogether. Keep this up, and Jemas might just give you a lifetime subscription to Marville and even offer to adopt you and name you as his heir.

Oh, and all your snide comments of "self-importance" is unto itself declaring yourself guilty of the same...

Buzzowl

01-26-2003, 04:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I read Spiderman, Thor, X-Men, X-Statics, Punisher and the odd other Marvel title...so how come I didn't know about Valeria Reed and Tony Starks "outing" ?

<hr /></blockquote>Here's a non-snarky answer:

It's probably because Mr. Quesada is too busy posting on message boards to actually "Edit in Chief".

I'm fine with the current Marvel line-up and very happy with some of their titles, but this is really a problem, IMO. The shared universe has always been part of Marvel's appeal, even if they often abused it with crappy multi-part crossovers.

The lack of any chief editorial vision or any collaboration between titles removes the "bullpen" idea alltogether and they'll live to regret it. The lack of cohesion means that I'm more apt to spend my money on non-Marvel superhero comics.

-W

Justin M. Campbell

01-26-2003, 05:27 PM

Just a quick one: Could someone explain to me how Valeria Von Doom (The character's initial name) went from being in her late teen years to being in her mid-teen months? Thank you.

Buzzowl

01-26-2003, 06:40 PM

The details are sketchy in my mind (as they pretty clearly were in the minds of the writers), but this Abraxas guy...an omnipotent otherdimensional potentate yaddayaddayadda...did the deed.

Iron Maiden

01-26-2003, 07:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Buzzowl:
The details are sketchy in my mind (as they pretty clearly were in the minds of the writers), but this Abraxas guy...an omnipotent otherdimensional potentate yaddayaddayadda...did the deed.<hr /></blockquote>Well, that is partially correct. In the mind-bogglingly confusing #49, Franklin reacted very strongly to his mother's fear of the aforementioned Abraxas. BTW, did anyone else besides me think he looked like Gilligan in a toga? I could never take him seriously for that reason.

Back to the story...Abraxas had tricked the FF into finding the Ultimate Nullifier for him. Franklin, seeing that things were going badly for his parents during the fight, used his powers to tap into Sue's mind to explain to her that when she miscarried, Franklin took the child and placed her with Roma in haven. She grew up there and became the teen-ager Valeria von Doom. Franklin also summoned the original Galactus back to the Earth Prime Universe. Prior to this, Abraxas had been killing all the Galacti across the multiverses. Galactus took the Nullifer from Abraxas and gave it to Reed, who then fired it. Reed explained that in order to realign everthing, the Nullifier ended all that was. This caused Franklin to lose his cosmic powers and Valeria von Doom ceased to exist, I suppose because she was not part of Earth Prime's Universe and belonged to another. The other puzzling result was that Sue suddenly became about 8 or 9 months pregnant.

This baby is the one that Doom had to assist in delivering in #54 when Sue started to have the same problems as with the child that miscarried. Reed was a prisoner of the Hidden Ones (a vengeful offshoot of the Inhumans) and Johnny went to the only person he could think of on short notice. Sue had to agree to allow Doom to name the child, thus he chose the name Valeria, his childhood companion and grand-daughter of faithful Boris.

I'll bet you're sorry you asked! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

maverick

01-27-2003, 01:38 AM

Yes.Yes I am .

Bill C

01-27-2003, 05:08 AM

So does that mean Galactus isn't dead anymore?

I'm also not a fan of Dooms new look but I would LOVE to own one of those snowglobes he's holding

DrDoom

01-27-2003, 05:43 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bill C:
So does that mean Galactus isn't dead anymore?

I'm also not a fan of Dooms new look but I would LOVE to own one of those snowglobes he's holding<hr /></blockquote>He is still dead; Look at following site: you see his head somewhere on the world and if you didn't read the Death of Galactus then :D

<a href="http://marvelite.prohosting.com/surfer/galactus/" target="_blank">http://marvelite.prohosting.com/surfer/galactus/</a>

Doom was alread dead and alive again (remember the time after he fought Terrax when he took over the mind of an innocent bystander) or the Hyperstorm storyarc (there were many writers who wrote Marvel to bring him back because they believed he was dead but that was the point of the story)

Iron Maiden

01-27-2003, 06:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bill C:
So does that mean Galactus isn't dead anymore?

Right. The kids (Valeria von Doom and Franklin) "wished upon a special star" and brought Galactus back. It used up all Franklin's power to do so.

I'm also not a fan of Dooms new look but I would LOVE to own one of those snowglobes he's holding<hr /></blockquote>I think what we are seeing is Doom on Casual Friday. I think there is more to come on his new look.

As for that snowglobe, that would be cool. I have the Bowen Design statue and it is awesome. BTW, Diamond Selects is coming out with a cool FF vs Doom bookend set I have seen on their web site and eBay.

Nightcrawler

01-27-2003, 10:07 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Iron Maiden:
I think what we are seeing is Doom on Casual Friday. I think there is more to come on his new look.
<hr /></blockquote>Confusing. The "incognito" theory doesnt really work perfectly because if you go into a giftstore with a shiny metal plate over your face at least one person is going to be suspicious. It also raises the second problem: Dooms smart, Dooms rich, who doesn't he just spring the cash for an image-inducer?

Iron Maiden

01-27-2003, 11:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Iron Maiden:
I think what we are seeing is Doom on Casual Friday. I think there is more to come on his new look.
<hr /></blockquote>Confusing. The "incognito" theory doesnt really work perfectly because if you go into a giftstore with a shiny metal plate over your face at least one person is going to be suspicious. It also raises the second problem: Dooms smart, Dooms rich, who doesn't he just spring the cash for an image-inducer?<hr /></blockquote>Good point....and I remember him using a similar device in an old Astonishing Tales. It has also been said, though, that he considers the mask his "true" face.

Elayne Riggs

01-27-2003, 02:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Buzzowl:

Here's a non-snarky answer:

It's probably because Mr. Quesada is too busy posting on message boards to actually "Edit in Chief".<hr /></blockquote>Oh, man, if that's "non-snarky" I wouldn't want to be around you when you decide to let loose. :)

- Elayne

vurt

01-27-2003, 05:01 PM

:D waids run on the fantastic four so far has been fun and nostalgic but bring on the dark side with the return of doom.

Buzzowl

01-27-2003, 07:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Oh, man, if that's "non-snarky" I wouldn't want to be around you when you decide to let loose <hr /></blockquote>Hee! Well, I meant that it wasn't snarky TO ITS RECIPIENT, like the answer prior to mine was.

And I think you used to be on the CompuServe forum, so you've probably seen me truly snarky....

:)

01-28-2003, 04:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Buzzowl:
It's probably because Mr. Quesada is too busy posting on message boards to actually "Edit in Chief".<hr /></blockquote>...Let us hope that's not "Edit in Nude", then.

Nightcrawler

01-28-2003, 05:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by vurt:
 :D waids run on the fantastic four so far has been fun and nostalgic but bring on the dark side with the return of doom.<hr /></blockquote>A little too nostalgic -- Johnny is in is mid-twenties by now, so is it really neccessary for him for constatly act like he's still a teenager..?

jharper

01-28-2003, 09:20 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
[
Oh, and all your snide comments of "self-importance" is unto itself declaring yourself guilty of the same...[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>No, calling some one arrogant or (euphemistically)self-important does not mean you are arrogant. P.Diddy appears arrogant to me and I'm sure that doesn't make me arrogant. Your posts are self important. Furthemore, you accuse Amazon of being self-important and a sheep at the same time. That's stupid and must be wrong.

For those of you as saddened as me by the vehement attitudes to Sue's baby should read the very interesting interview with Chuck Austen at 411mania.com. While not specifically referring to baby-killing it's very pertinenet

A typical quote includes:

"It worries me, this fanatical following of certain characters anyway, especially limbo characters no one's seen or heard from in years. I bring a character in no other writer was using, or cared about, and give that character "air time", and fans are upset. I'm not treating them right, I'm not showing them as they should be, I'm not respecting their history, the complaints are a mile long, online, and people are threatening my life. Threatening my life! These are fictional characters, people, not your personal love-slaves that no one else can touch. Grow the hell up. "

amazon

01-28-2003, 02:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by amazon:
 If we’re going to get out of the ghetto there’s got to be a lot less negativity<hr /></blockquote>...Coming from an obvious sheep like yourself, this statement almost cones as no surprise. By that reckoning, you're calling for simply accepting the ghetto for what it is, and just making the best of it rather than rebelling against the conditions and either forcing improvement or escaping altogether. ...

<hr /></blockquote>No the ghetto has been created by you. You're the one who is obsessive enough to be still upset over a story that is over 15 years old; the author of which, who when asked, couldn't believe that it was still being referenced in the FF comic.

The main problem with sites like this one is the relentness negative nature. The tsunami launch clearly shows that the 'fans' love nothing better than to knock and carp. Any new comics fan would have been turned by the bile and venom spilt over whether newsarama ought to even print the teasers. Rather than seeing Tsunami as a chance to read something new and different, it's just seen as a chance to Marvel bash. Fans have to realise that the attitude of fandom puts off new readers.

OM again
Keep this up, and Jemas might just give you a lifetime subscription to Marville and even offer to adopt you and name you as his heir

Jemas may be a prat (at least in his on-line persona), but I'd rather have him as a relative than you.

OM:
Oh, and all your snide comments of "self-importance" is unto itself declaring yourself guilty of the same

NO, I can point out self-importance and arrogance without that meaning I'm arrogant myself. The vast majority of comics fans think Todd is arrogant in his dealings with Gaiman, particularly with the new statue, but that doesn't make them arrogant. It's an inaccurate non-sequitur.

Furthermore, you're not even self consistent. You've called me self-important and a sheep in the same response, two things that definitely don't go together. :D

Finally, in regard to snide, it wasn't as I was neither malicious nor superior.

Joe Kilmartin

01-28-2003, 09:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Joe Kilmartin:
If it doesn't make any sense for Spider-Man to say "Oh yeah, Reed and Sue have a new baby" (and why should it?), then it doesn't happen.

<hr /></blockquote>True, but if Spidey is such good friends with the Torch, maybe we would have seen the FF in a Spidey issue recently (instead, we got a page-long appearance, which I admit was a nice touch, about a year ago). I understood that guest appearances are often the tool of desperate writers (look at early Vol.2 Spider-Man) but sometimes there are events that are too big to go unrecognised. For example, wouldnt the events in Thor (ie. the arrival of Asgard over NYC) have an impact on just about every superhero who operates in that area? How did other superheroes operate during the Kang War? What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? etc etc.<hr /></blockquote>The answer to your last question depends on whether or not its carrying a coconut, during the Kang War, when Asgard is over Manhattan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

Wasn't The Kang War long enough without it carrying over into every OTHER Marvel book as well?

To be a little less "snarky" tho, Spider-Man has been spending more time in Los Angeles and Africa than Manhattan lately, and when he got and he and some other Manhattan based characters have shown up in Thor now that the Rainbow Bridge is Somewhere Over The Brooklyn. So yes, its effecting them, and when it does, their appearance in Thor shows how they're effected.

Again, it seems to make sense to me (tho your own mileages clearly vary on this), if you want Thor then you read Thor. If you want Spidey, you have your pick of 3 or 4 books now. Each month. A lot of people see multi-book crossovers (Week 5 events, as I beleive they're called at DC) as one of the few weak things that DC has going editorially and they have a negative effect on a writer's attempt to get a story across to an audience if they have to drop what they're doing so one of their characters can get "Joker-ised" because "that's what we're doing this month".

Aren't the plethora of cross-overs one of the things that most people complain about when they're talking about comics from the 80's and 90's? I can remember being annoyed that I had to buy a copy of Power Pack to find out what was happening in the Mutant Massacre, for example. If Marvel was doing this with all of their titles, I think that people would complain just as much about the same thing. Traditionally, its never the "hot" books that are crossed over folks... if you want to read a "Get Kraven" / "X-Men" crossover, that's up to you, but you can see why someone like Morrison or Austin might resent being told they had to do one.

Lastly, isn't the current 3 part crossover in Thor, Iron Man, and the Avengers exactly what every one who's upset about this stuff seems to have been asking for when it comes to interconnected stories? Its my understanding that there'll be an upcoming Spider-Man / FF interconected story sometime right after the Doom story arc. Why are you folks complaining when the company is responding to what you've asked for and relatively quickly, too?

I don't get it...

Joe

Nightcrawler

01-29-2003, 10:15 AM

Re: Joe
The answer to your last question depends on whether or not its carrying a coconut, during the Kang War, when Asgard is over Manhattan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

Well done! I wasnt sure if anyone would get that.

Wasn't The Kang War long enough without it carrying over into every OTHER Marvel book as well?

True, it was a little stretched, but who could complain when when it's written by a master? Seriously though, I didn't mean that the Kang War should have spilled out of Avengers totally, but I do think that there could have been stories told during the Kang War in other books that didn't have to be read by people who only wished to follow it in Avengers. I'm making a mess of explaining this probably, so here's another way of putting it:

Wonderman recalled elements of the Kang War (Avengers51 I think...) in which he states that certain heroes were captured and put in prison camps. This dialogue is accompanied by a scene that clearly shows the Fantastic Four being captured. So maybe it would have been nice to have seen a FF issue where the FF work their way out of that predicament? It doesnt have to be an essential part of the story (ie. spin-off), just a FF issue that acknowledges huge-scale events in the Marvel Universe. Admittedly, if I was writing the FF at the time and I was told "You gotta write about what Busieks doing!" I probably wouldn't be too happy, but the fans would probably lap it up...

To be a little less "snarky" tho, Spider-Man has been spending more time in Los Angeles and Africa than Manhattan lately, and when he got and he and some other Manhattan based characters have shown up in Thor now that the Rainbow Bridge is Somewhere Over The Brooklyn. So yes, its effecting them, and when it does, their appearance in Thor shows how they're effected.

Actually, apart from Spidey in Thor#51, I cant think of anyone who has had guest appearances in Thor since.

Again, it seems to make sense to me (tho your own mileages clearly vary on this), if you want Thor then you read Thor. If you want Spidey, you have your pick of 3 or 4 books now.

True, but what I meant was that in a sense of scale, crossovers make sense when they're based on big events. For example, I doubt many superheroes ould have looked out of their windows one morning to see a huge mythological city obscuring their view of the Manhatten sunrise, and just thought "Oh. Never mind, things usually have a way of working themselves out...".

Aren't the plethora of cross-overs one of the things that most people complain about when they're talking about comics from the 80's and 90's? I can remember being annoyed that I had to buy a copy of Power Pack to find out what was happening in the Mutant Massacre, for example.

I guess it depends on how they're done. If the crossover is executed as a limited series (a la Secret Wars) that would be okay, because you wouldnt need to read it if you werent interested. But then people probably wouldnt buy it. Errr...

Lastly, isn't the current 3 part crossover in Thor, Iron Man, and the Avengers exactly what every one who's upset about this stuff seems to have been asking for when it comes to interconnected stories?

Well, yeah... but since I havent read the third part of that yet I dont know what to make of it. At the moment I think it's just writing Thor out of the Avengers (anyone else miffed about that?). What I meant is that so far we've had the actions of Thor, which are on a large scale, acknowledged by three heroes: two of which were pretty obvious choices, and the other was incredibly "on the fence" about it. I just think it could have been utilised more. Maybe its because Thor isnt a big seller, or maybe despite what I think it really is a dumb idea -- I don't know.

Its my understanding that there'll be an upcoming Spider-Man / FF interconected story sometime right after the Doom story arc. Why are you folks complaining when the company is responding to what you've asked for and relatively quickly, too?

Well, I didn't know about that, so all I can say (at the risk of making myself look stupider than I may have done already) is "We'll just have to wait and see".

So there you go. I've explained myself, possibly in the worst way I could, but I tried, oh Odin I tried...

Buzzowl

01-29-2003, 12:07 PM

Yeah, I don't think I'm asking for large-scale crossovers on the order of the Mutant Mass-a-cree. I'm more interested in those shared guest appearances or just an acknowledgement that there are big doings going on.

I didn't read Thor in the 80's, but I remember that he had opened the 'Casque of Ancient Winters' or something. In the other comics, it was snowing. That was cool. And not hard to manage with even basic editorial planning. And certainly not invasive.

Bud Fox

01-29-2003, 12:25 PM

Okay, I'm as big of a Doom mark as the next guy, but if Doom is so smart and advanced, why couldn't he either fix his scars with science or sorcery, or at least get an image enhancer like Nightcrawler always used when they went out shopping?

DrDoom

01-29-2003, 05:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bud Fox:
Okay, I'm as big of a Doom mark as the next guy, but if Doom is so smart and advanced, why couldn't he either fix his scars with science or sorcery, or at least get an image enhancer like Nightcrawler always used when they went out shopping?<hr /></blockquote>Because he is a hothead and the scars remember him what happend to him and that makes him hate Reed Richards...Remember what the Ancient one said to Doom in Triumph and Tormement "That is a minor scrath" when Doom became furious because he said that was a minor scratch and thats why he went to that monastery to scar his face further (he didn't went there; the monks find him almost exausted in the snow)so he would have a more present memory for that scar and then he said "I am no longer Victor von Doom I am Doctor Doom"

01-29-2003, 07:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by amazon:
Finally, in regard to snide, it wasn't as I was neither malicious nor superior.<hr /></blockquote>...No, you're just a juvenile twit trying to make himself appear superior by yelling the loudest ten-dollar words he could manage to string together and praying nobody'll take apart his incoherence.

And, needless to say, not worth my time.

Joe Kilmartin

01-29-2003, 07:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Roast Beef:
All right. I have never read a Fantastic Four comic in my life (wait, I did read one with the "new" Fantastic Four -- Wolverine et al.), but this story sounds great. I am ALL ABOUT big epic collisions of will. But I have a question.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TaylorPorter:

This comes with a <a href="http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0301/22/ff68.htm" target="_blank">cover image featuring Reed and Sue's daughter</a>.<hr /></blockquote>Is that seriously the Fantastic Four logo? Seriously? That is hands-down the worst logo of anything I have ever seen. It looks like the sign hanging over the door of some odd juice-bar / kids' after-school hangout on a tv show like Saved By the Bell or Power Rangers. Seriously... what is up with that logo?<hr /></blockquote>That's been the logo since last September.

If its that gawdawful, why did it take so long for you to notice it?

Enquiring minds...,

Joe

Nightcrawler

01-30-2003, 11:44 AM

Yes, it's awful. and yes, peope already have wrote in to Marvel saying how they hate it. Just don't expect it to change anytime soon.

Personally, I'll let them off if they put back "The Worlds Greatest Comic magazine".

DrDoom

01-31-2003, 05:27 AM

Did somebody read the preview dot.com version on Marvels website?

Patsy

02-01-2003, 03:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
 [QUOTE]Originally posted by amazon:
Finally, in regard to snide, it wasn't as I was neither malicious nor superior.<hr /></blockquote>...No, you're just a juvenile twit trying to make himself appear superior by yelling the loudest ten-dollar words he could manage to string together and praying nobody'll take apart his incoherence..

Seemed a very coherent argument to me! :cool:

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />And, needless to say, not worth my time.<hr /></blockquote>This has to be the funniest thing I've read on these boards for a long time! If it was needless to say why did you say it?!!! And if it wasn't worth your time why did you waste it!!!!! :confused: :confused: :D :D

Iron Maiden

02-03-2003, 08:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Patsy:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
 [QUOTE]Originally posted by amazon:
Finally, in regard to snide, it wasn't as I was neither malicious nor superior.<hr /></blockquote>...No, you're just a juvenile twit trying to make himself appear superior by yelling the loudest ten-dollar words he could manage to string together and praying nobody'll take apart his incoherence..

Seemed a very coherent argument to me! :cool:

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />And, needless to say, not worth my time.<hr /></blockquote>This has to be the funniest thing I've read on these boards for a long time! If it was needless to say why did you say it?!!! And if it wasn't worth your time why did you waste it!!!!! :confused: :confused: :D :D <hr /></blockquote>Touche...I guess somebody's goat was gotten (is that grammatically correct?)

DrDoom

02-06-2003, 05:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Patsy:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
 [QUOTE]Originally posted by amazon:
Finally, in regard to snide, it wasn't as I was neither malicious nor superior.<hr /></blockquote>...No, you're just a juvenile twit trying to make himself appear superior by yelling the loudest ten-dollar words he could manage to string together and praying nobody'll take apart his incoherence..

Seemed a very coherent argument to me! :cool:

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />And, needless to say, not worth my time.<hr /></blockquote>This has to be the funniest thing I've read on these boards for a long time! If it was needless to say why did you say it?!!! And if it wasn't worth your time why did you waste it!!!!! :confused: :confused: :D :D <hr /></blockquote>is this kinda topic related?

(**smaks his iron fist on the table nearly destroying it***)

jharper

02-07-2003, 08:52 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DrDoom:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Patsy:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OM:
 [QUOTE]Originally posted by amazon:
Finally, in regard to snide, it wasn't as I was neither malicious nor superior.<hr /></blockquote>...No, you're just a juvenile twit trying to make himself appear superior by yelling the loudest ten-dollar words he could manage to string together and praying nobody'll take apart his incoherence..

Seemed a very coherent argument to me! :cool:

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />And, needless to say, not worth my time.<hr /></blockquote>This has to be the funniest thing I've read on these boards for a long time! If it was needless to say why did you say it?!!! And if it wasn't worth your time why did you waste it!!!!! :confused: :confused: :D :D <hr /></blockquote>is this kinda topic related?

(**smaks his iron fist on the table nearly destroying it***)<hr /></blockquote>Yes, we're discussing responses to Waid's ideas and I think it's hilarious that OM came up with the comment "And, needless to say, not worth my time"when it clearly was not needless and was apparently worth his time :) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />