NEW YORK DAILY NEWS REPORTS ON CAP #25 - SPOILER WARNING [Archive]

MattBrady

03-07-2007, 06:14 AM

<img src="http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/DDream/CAPA025_dc_t.jpg" border="0" align="right">As with the major reveal in Civil War #2, the mainstream media has picked up on a story point in a Marvel Comic, this time, Captain America #25.

SPOILER WARNING FOR CAPTAIN AMERICA #25

According to the New York Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/503132p-424376c.html), Captain America dies in issue #25, after being shot on the steps of the courthouse where he was to be arraigned.

"It's a hell of a time for him to go. We really need him now," co-creator Joe Simon, 93, told the News after being informed of his brainchild's death.

The News outlined Cap’s history up to the point of Civil War, quoting current Cap writer Ed Brubaker as saying:

"What I found is that all the really hard-core left-wing fans want Cap to be standing out on and giving speeches on the streetcorner against the Bush administration, and all the really right-wing [fans] all want him to be over in the streets of Baghdad, punching out Saddam," Brubaker said.

From the News:

Comic book deaths, however, are rarely final. Marvel's archrival, DC Comics, provoked a media frenzy when it killed off Superman in 1993, only to reanimate its prize creation a year later.

Joe Quesada, 43, Marvel Entertainment's editor in chief, said he wouldn't rule out the shield-throwing champion's eventual return. But for now, the Captain's fans are in mourning.

Click here (http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/DDream/Cap25.html) for the constantly updating story, with links to coverage.

spiderTam

03-07-2007, 06:31 AM

Second post! (I hope)

Man, that is a freaking pain! I was looking forward to reading this and its all over the news! That and the fact that us Brits have to wait until Thursday!

Hellblazer

03-07-2007, 06:33 AM

Yeah, right !

Dead, indeed. ;)

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 06:34 AM

darrenmdr

03-07-2007, 06:34 AM

Bloody hell I am shocked. Please Please Please do not let Cap become Ronin. I have no doubt he will be back, resurrected as a result of the Super Soldier Serum or by the Cosmic Cube or anything else fine. Make it that it was really hulkling in disguise or it was a ruse by Nick Fury to get Steve underground. Just keep Cap out of the limelight for a while.

Could not agree more with Ed Brubaker either. I've been a fan of Cap for many years now and I know this sounds strange, but even thought this new series has been exemplary in every way, this news make me happy. :eek: :D :confused: :( :eek: :D :D sums it up.

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 06:39 AM

Cap is not Ronin.
Read New Avengers 27 and you'll see what i mean.

Does Cap say "yo"?

Thought not.

Morten Pedersen

03-07-2007, 06:40 AM

Cap is faking his death with a LMD, it's a classic Marvel WWII hero plot or so i think?

spiderTam

03-07-2007, 06:40 AM

Ed Brubaker had done a fine job on this book since he's taken over it. Heck he's done a good enough job on most books since his Marvel debut (not sure about Uncanny X tho!), I'm interested to see where he will take it.

Considering the insistence on Marvels part that Civil War would not be stopped by cosmic cubes or annihilation waves I imagine this will not be so cheesily ret-conned!

Well, they could kill Iron Man, have the hand revive both of them. Then Tony is Ronin, Steve is Iron Man and Frank Castle is Daredevil!

We'll leave Cap's identity up to Iron Fist. Let him make a career of it!

theodoros2

03-07-2007, 06:45 AM

The second bigest joke in comicbooks is "killing" a character.
He stays dead for a month now?

The best jokes in comicbooks are the clones.

Of course he is not dead!! Doing the same thing with Daredevil?

Floyd Lawton

03-07-2007, 06:48 AM

He aint dead. Bru has a plan.

steelscott

03-07-2007, 06:50 AM

I don't believe it! That has to be one powerful sniper.

Sounds like a cool event. I'm in and I haven't read CAP since Garney and Waid.

www.TNAOBB.blogspot.com

Catch New Episodes!

ApacheDick

03-07-2007, 06:52 AM

Star Saber

03-07-2007, 06:56 AM

wait, wasn't peter suppose to don the black costume bec of cap's death? but he was wearing black before cap died....

leckomaniac

03-07-2007, 06:58 AM

Cap is not Ronin.
Read New Avengers 27 and you'll see what i mean.

Does Cap say "yo"?

Thought not.

But wasn't the big knock against Cap that he wasn't in touch with Americans today? Youtube, and myspace etc? So wouldn't be logical that Cap faked his own death...went underground...became Ronin all in an attempt to feel more connected? Therefore, his use of the word "yo" would be him attempting to make that connection...not unlike when your father says stuff like that trying to feel connected to you.

RichJohnston

03-07-2007, 07:01 AM

Remember, these things are never permanent, and the super soldier serum will always be a convenient get out clause…. Also, see the third story in Initiative for more details… LITG reported the rumours of this months ago, as well as the spin Marvel tried to deflect attention with its fake Amazon listing. LITG also stated that was the reason for Fallen Son *really* being called Fallen Soldier, and that it would all kick off in Captain America 25…

"Damn it to Hell..."

Toygeek

03-07-2007, 07:02 AM

Not to get into too much detail...but if you read Civil War: The Initiative, ALSO out today, Ms. Marvel gives a direct contradiction to what the news is reporting. Of course, based on the conversation, and whom she's having it with...she could have been lying.

But it's an out.

**edit**

Ahem...also known as "what Rich Johnston just said." Man, I'm slow on the draw today. Though he IS much more familiar with stories about Brubaker and death in comics than I am.

The Bry

03-07-2007, 07:03 AM

But wasn't the big knock against Cap that he wasn't in touch with Americans today? Youtube, and myspace etc? So wouldn't be logical that Cap faked his own death...went underground...became Ronin all in an attempt to feel more connected? Therefore, his use of the word "yo" would be him attempting to make that connection...not unlike when your father says stuff like that trying to feel connected to you.

I was thinking the same thing, but that would taint the very thing he was standing for wouldn't it? I mean that's like (and I'm not makin this a DC/Marvel thread) Superman giving up all his values so that he could "fit" in the modern world it just won't fit, I personally find it interesting that a guy who represents Marvel's America would be branded as a traitor...guess they're not so Civil (yeah that was a bad pun)

tof

03-07-2007, 07:07 AM

After a guy shot Speedball you'd think the policemen were smart enough to protect Captain America when bringing him to his trial :)

Beheader

03-07-2007, 07:17 AM

After a guy shot Speedball you'd think the policemen were smart enough to protect Captain America when bringing him to his trial :)

My thought exactly. This would have more impact if they didn't do the Speedball shooting, now it's repetitive.

Even the original "Dead means dead" Joe Q admits he'll probably be back. It's a weak sales ploy.

Not saying it won't be a good story, but it's impact has flaws.

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 07:21 AM

How, exactly, is something that you haven't read and know next to nothing about a weak sales ploy?

I call it misdirection...

ChaosArtist

03-07-2007, 07:23 AM

whats disappointing is that this is the second bomb spoiled which could have been major news (the first being spideys unmasking). anyway all that matters is great storytelling and i trust bru

Beheader

03-07-2007, 07:36 AM

How, exactly, is something that you haven't read and know next to nothing about a weak sales ploy?

Because the article says Cap is shot dead, then the EIC says he'll probably be back. It's like reading an advertisement for delicious apples with a note saying they might be rotten. Of course it's misdiretion, they admit it.

dpg

03-07-2007, 07:42 AM

I hate those assholes. F**k Marvel.

Toygeek

03-07-2007, 07:51 AM

Of course it's misdiretion, they admit it.

Of course, as of late, they've been known to cause misdirection about their misdirection. So clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of me...

mopocalypse

03-07-2007, 07:52 AM

He didn't die DURING Civil War and then they kill him in his first post CW story :(

Darkfung

03-07-2007, 07:54 AM

It was Tony Wanker Stark who did it !!:eek:

Lord Jason

03-07-2007, 07:54 AM

So Captain America is dead, and Marvel will still insist that Iron Man shouldn’t be seen as a bad guy…

Ok, I’ve spoken at length on how I didn’t like the series, from how it was plotted, written and illustrated. But I did say that it threw up interesting scenarios and storylines, whilst questioning whether Marvel would see these through to their ultimate end.

Now here I admit I might have been wrong on a couple of things. If the Civil War was a set-up to a bigger event (as an event itself it was poor) and if that bigger event was the assassination of Captain America, then it may have been worth it. Killing Captain America, and in such a way, may just be one the most interesting developments in the character’s history, and it adds purpose to the whole Civil War.

It also adds more weight to the guilt the likes of Tony Stark and Reed Richards (not directly responsible, involuntary manslaughter, combat zone etc excuses aside) and I do hope to see these ramifications see light. Rather than say Iron Man was not directly responsible, I’d say he was indirectly responsible, which in itself is huge. Perhaps those who are still heroes in this universe should convene and consider executing him. Oh wait, they did that with the Scarlet Witch… Some heroes.

So Captain America is dead, and the Mighty Avengers and New Avengers seem (now) stupidly intent on fighting each other.

Finally, a word on the good Captain. He won’t obviously stay dead for long. He doesn’t have to, nor should he as he is a comic-book character. He’s also more than human, with his super-soldier serum. And it’s a brave choice, one I congratulate Marvel on. It means more than the recent deaths (and rebirths) of characters like Colossus, Psylocke and Hawkeye. Their deaths merely removed them from books and from fans who loved them. Their deaths didn’t feel like the casualties or sacrifices that they should have been. They were brought back because the fans still loved them. Captain America however is an icon of the Marvel Universe, and his death is a true casualty of an ill-conceived war.

Now I can sit back and enjoy a tangible consequence of this ‘event’, and enjoy a battlefield with a major player removed. I can enjoy it because we all know he’ll be back. But as I said in some other post, maybe some 10 years-old kid’s world has been rocked, and we been-there-seen it-all cynics can take comfort in that.

p.s. Mainstream media attention is great for comics. They are that important.

p.p.s If Frank Castle, as seems likely, is picking up the shield, will he not be the Captain who constantly gets his @$$ handed to him? The guy is not a super-soldier. Maybe Reed has cloned Steve Rogers and he kills someone else…

STL

03-07-2007, 07:54 AM

Wow. Massive news. Any other writer and I'd up and out. But Bru has gotten me to love a story that I could not possibly thought I ever could in bringing back Bucky so I;m willing to stick through this one.

But really we know he's gonna get brought back. It's all a matter of time.

I wouldn't be surprised if Nick Fury has his hands in this somehow. Fake death, pull Cap out. Just crap though b/c I've been wanting to see Cap and Carter get together. Pity.

Angelophile

03-07-2007, 07:55 AM

Having just read "The Punisher/Captain America: Blood & Glory", where the Punisher snipes Cap and he survives... well, this is, what, the 180th time Steve has been gunned down?

Fact is, you put this in a book that not too long ago brought Bucky back from oblivion, you just know we're one cheap flashback away from "Steve secretly survived, and the Taliban turned him into a cyborg assassin."

I sense a plotbunny.

After the final pages of Civil War and Punisher's involvement in the book and his attitude to Cap...

Who thinks that Frank is the one to gun him down? Not killing him, but faking the assassination.

Foenix

03-07-2007, 07:56 AM

*sigh*

Yeah, this'll stick.

Fortunately, I have faith in Brubaker, and I'm sure the story, and the aftermath, and whatever comes in Captain America will continue to be quality entertainment. Many people were worried about the return of Bucky, and that exceeded all my expectations, and I'll keep my fingers crossed that Ed can continue to do that with this.

I don't mind deaths in comics, even knowing there's a good chance it could be undone. As long as it affects the characters, and creates good stories, I can live with it. My only qualm is that I am so very burned out on deaths in comics, thanks to the last few years. Can we take a break for the forseeable future, now?

J

MattBrady

03-07-2007, 07:56 AM

Who thinks that Frank is the one to gun him down? Not killing him, but faking the assassination.Read the issue. Your question is answered.

MattB

Clem

03-07-2007, 08:01 AM

This is just another story with built-in outs and the newspapers are dumber for believing it.

bsmith

03-07-2007, 08:02 AM

I sense a plotbunny.

After the final pages of Civil War and Punisher's involvement in the book and his attitude to Cap...

Who thinks that Frank is the one to gun him down? Not killing him, but faking the assassination.

Exactly, faking the assassination no matter who did it. Convenient for Cap to come back while everyone thinks Steve Rogers is dead, so voila, new secret ID.

here we go again....

BSmith

darrenmdr

03-07-2007, 08:03 AM

all that matters is great storytelling and i trust bru

Precisely. Clones, Deaths, Ressurections etc it's all cliched crap, seen it so many times before over the past 20 or so years. But when the cliched crap is well written you forget it's cliched crap and enjoy it for the pure entertainment that it is.

Oh and imagine if you were ten, not been reading comics for long and picked up that issue. You'd be psyched ( I apologise if psyched is not in common parlance with da kidz):D

BlueThunderArmy

03-07-2007, 08:04 AM

Well, I was planning to check this out anyway (though is it right that it's $3.99???), but have a full day to wait over here. Wah.

mike101

03-07-2007, 08:06 AM

me thinks that Fury is wrapped up in this

gokujam

03-07-2007, 08:07 AM

Marvel has officially pissed me off for the last time.

Krypto

03-07-2007, 08:07 AM

Bloody hell I am shocked. Please Please Please do not let Cap become Ronin. I have no doubt he will be back, resurrected as a result of the Super Soldier Serum or by the Cosmic Cube or anything else fine. Make it that it was really hulkling in disguise or it was a ruse by Nick Fury to get Steve underground.

Bet you're right. LIfe Model Decoy?

Anyway, Cap's better off out of it than in a world where people eff and blind in comics :)

Oh well, let Marvel have its cheap stunts.

justice~!

03-07-2007, 08:08 AM

Ouch. Pretty predictable given all of the solicitations for the last couple of months. Hope it goes in a unique direction.

Cyberleader

03-07-2007, 08:17 AM

Cap is not Ronin.
Read New Avengers 27 and you'll see what i mean.

Does Cap say "yo"?

Thought not.

If Bendis is writing the dialog? Experience tells me anything goes.

FChamberlain

03-07-2007, 08:22 AM

Doh! Though I typically stay away from spoilers, I figured that I was safe and that the spoiler and news release was focused on Cap's incarceration. A gut shot.... I didn't see that coming. Brubaker has some great plans no doubt. I submitted my Previews order yesterday and this article reminded me why Cap is one of only a very few Marvel titles that I am continuing to read post- Civil War.

Cyberleader

03-07-2007, 08:24 AM

He didn't die DURING Civil War and then they kill him in his first post CW story :(

Yeah the same thing hit me. While I can definitely see the reasoning behind offing him in his own title, it feels like its just one more way in which Civil War proper lacked any real umph as a narrative.

CharleyX

03-07-2007, 08:26 AM

I also figured Castle right away - he would be livid at Cap for surrendering. But it's not a headshot so he'll probably survive - they'll pull a "Dave" on him for a while, let Bucky take over or something. Cap should be back by 2010.

Cyberleader

03-07-2007, 08:28 AM

vbartilucci

03-07-2007, 08:28 AM

"What I found is that all the really hard-core left-wing fans want Cap to be standing out on and giving speeches on the streetcorner against the Bush administration, and all the really right-wing [fans] all want him to be over in the streets of Baghdad, punching out Saddam," Brubaker said.

So I chose to kill him, ensuring that no one is happy.

My biggest "problem" with this is once again, this Civil War-related event does not take place in the pages of Civil War.

Personally, I think having Cap in prison is MORE dramatic than killing him. In prison he's a symbol to the anti-reg side, plus he can be getting all conflicted with himself. Plus, you know where he is. Dead, there's no drama, because the fans, and even the heroes in the MU know that death is rarely permanent in their world. There's no drama, there's just a shower of Clever Theories as to when and how he'll come back.

With several issues of CA already solicited, one wonders if they'll be filled with page after page of tears and breast beating, or if Frank Castle will put on the mask, as about 87% of the fans predicted after CW7.

nickmaynard

03-07-2007, 08:29 AM

im really shocked by how insanely delusional you all are.

i mean, your 'rolled eyes' and 'yeah this'll stick' is just insane! this is COMICS! people die, people come back. that is practically the definition of comics! named one A-List character who hasnt been dead for a while, at least once?

get over yourselves.

stop complaining before you read the book.

vbartilucci

03-07-2007, 08:31 AM

Read the issue. Your question is answered.

MattB
Read the issue? What's the point of that? We're having much more fun ranting about things we know little to nothing about. It's the national pasttime, and a requirement for public office.

rahnefan

03-07-2007, 08:32 AM

Secret Wars, Mutant Wars, Magneto War, Infinity War, Evolutionary War, Civil War, World War Hulk, and all the other crossovers with similar names like Crusade...and collectively, hardly any "deaths." It's long been worn out. If clones are the #1 joke and "deaths" #2, wars must be #3. It's long, long been overdone.

I'd say it's fairly shameless to call a mostly non-fatal crossover event "Civil War" when you consider that the Spanish Civil War cost about 500,000 lives; the American Civil War cost the lives of over 620,000 people; the Chinese Civil War killed about 2 and a half million people; the Second Congo War killed over 3 and a half million people. So losing Cap only adds bitter to my sweet because I know it won't be permanent. The analogous theme of CW to real current affairs couldn't better be concluded than by "killing" the USA's avatar. And I never disliked a thing about Cap at all.

ThatNickGuy

03-07-2007, 08:37 AM

Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't it have made more sense, or at least impact if Marvel had done this towards the end of Civil War?

Also, I don't believe for a second this will stick. It'll either be a faked death (so he can become Ronin or something) or the Super Soldier serum will bring him back or something. Killing off Cap would be like killing Superman. It won't last.

Krypto

03-07-2007, 08:38 AM

speedbaldwin

03-07-2007, 08:39 AM

How, exactly, is something that you haven't read and know next to nothing about a weak sales ploy?

I think calling it a weak sales ploy is a fair and apt description. I agree, it's a very obvious gimmick. I don't think anyone here is going to call the story weak, because Brubaker is frickin' awesome and he'll write it in a kick ass way. But I don't think anyone here is all too worried that Steve Rogers won't be back within a year or so. That's what makes it a weak sales ploy.

rahnefan

03-07-2007, 08:40 AM

If Super-Soldiers were bulletproof, he wouldn't have needed that shield.

Rabid Monkey

03-07-2007, 08:43 AM

Man, I'm just mad that the first thing I saw when I walked into the office today was Fox News showing the cover of issue #25 yelling that Captain America died.

Stupid Fox News.

KyleCowstar

03-07-2007, 08:45 AM

Great storytelling.......:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:p

rahnefan

03-07-2007, 08:45 AM

Man, I'm just mad that the first thing I saw when I walked into the office today was Fox News showing the cover of issue #25 yelling that Captain America died.

Stupid Fox News.

LOL!! God only knows what could be more appropriate.

Fats Tuesday

03-07-2007, 08:45 AM

bluebird

03-07-2007, 08:51 AM

Gladiator X

03-07-2007, 08:53 AM

I've read comics long enough to not freak out about this.......yet.

I will say if they actually are planning on keeping Steve Rogers dead and this isn't just a [short term] sales ploy I will be mother____in' pissed.:mad:

seethruhero

03-07-2007, 08:54 AM

Jmacq1

03-07-2007, 08:57 AM

Ha ha ha! Didn't Millar say in an interview he killed Goliath instead of Cap, Tony or Spidey because any of those latter three would just come back to life a few months later and so know one would take their death seriously anyway?

And is this the "Fallen Son" death? Because there's a Captain America issue of that.

Yes there is. And supposedly the official title is actually "Fallen Soldier".

But "Captain America's" issue is "Bargaining". It's likely a bunch of people "bargaining" to become the "new" Captain America.

ireact

03-07-2007, 08:57 AM

FChamberlain

03-07-2007, 08:57 AM

Death, for the sake of shock value in a comic by one of the big 2? What a surprise! I'm blown away!

I'm growing tired of writers not knowing how to tell a good, lasting story without killing a character. It shows the sad state of comics coming from the major publishers.

With all of the absolutes in your post, you've obviously read it, right? If not, you are saying more about yourself than the quality of the story, the death or the writer.

rahnefan

03-07-2007, 09:01 AM

Can anyone think of a significant Marvel "death" that has ever been permanent? Who holds the record? Bucky? Gwen Stacy?

But if it took this "death" to bring Illyana back to life, I'm totally cool with that.

kryptofan1

03-07-2007, 09:04 AM

My first question is whether Steve Rogers is Ronin (my first thought when i saw Cap wasn't in the New Avengers lineup and my first thought after seeing this article) or the new Iron Man. Maybe he will be saved by Tony Stark's heart saving technology (which has to be more advanced than it was in the '60s.

My second question is whether the Winter Soldier will temporarily move up the chain (e.g. Dick Grayson in the Prodigal story)? I hope not. I'd love to see Brubaker write Captain America without the title character. I'm glad he is at the helm for this story and the aftermath.

Redmond

03-07-2007, 09:05 AM

Read the issue? What's the point of that? We're having much more fun ranting about things we know little to nothing about.
You mean fun ranting about cliches we don't need to read to know how they will play out. Please, no one buy this crap. It'll just encourage them to do more.

rahnefan

03-07-2007, 09:07 AM

You mean fun ranting about cliches we don't need to read to know how they will play out. Please, no one buy this crap. It'll just encourage them to do more.

That was my attitude re: the entire CW event.

Remjer

03-07-2007, 09:14 AM

:rolleyes:

this is a little too late, too overused and........ didn't we just see this already?

also

wow if the people in the marvel universe are so concerned with superpower heroes being crazy......what must they think of people outside courthouses.....like they have severely injured or killed two Superheroes!

All people outside court houses must be registered!

Kal-el

03-07-2007, 09:18 AM

He's better off dead with how he was written in CW, he wan't my Cap anyway.

PMB1972

03-07-2007, 09:18 AM

I know that comics aren’t just for kids anymore for ages...But Marvel’s books...Well, they really are. Although I believe that children books are more coherent and original.

MarvelMan777

03-07-2007, 09:20 AM

I believe that Captain America is still alive courtesy of Nick Fury's LMD. Now in the meantime as part of a Marvel ploy, they will set up a MySpace account for Captain America where you can post and let Captain America know about how things work today and tell him what an Ipod is etc.....I mean you really didnt think the real Cap would be walking up the stairs to the courthouse with only 2 gaurds around him? He would require a batallion to prevent picketers or protestors from doing anything, yet alone giving a sniper such a clear line of sight, well course if your the Punisher....

Jmacq1

03-07-2007, 09:21 AM

What I don't understand is this:

Cap's been thrown off buildings, disappeared into explosions, plunged into fathoms, fallen from planes, trapped in submarines. This isn't exactly the first time Sharon Carter has shot him, either.

Did anyone think Cap was dead all those times an issue ended with his life being threatened? Why is this being treated as anything other than a cliffhanger? Cap gets shot ALL THE TIME.

- Ibrahim Ng

I haven't read the issue myself, but from what I understand, it goes a little beyond just "him getting shot." One of the descriptions I read actually accounts for some of the common "outs" being described here:

Nick Fury being involved (He's reportedly shown getting ready to spring Steve when the attack happens, and is as shocked as anyone else when it does).

Cap being "wounded" instead of "dead" (The comic continues beyond the attack, long enough for doctors to officially declare him dead and pull the sheet over his head).

I don't think Ed's going to leave the easy "outs" unaccounted for, honestly.

fearlessrees

03-07-2007, 09:22 AM

i cannot believe someone spoiled this for me.

if i ever see them in person, i will go medevil on them.

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 09:23 AM

I think calling it a weak sales ploy is a fair and apt description. I agree, it's a very obvious gimmick. I don't think anyone here is going to call the story weak, because Brubaker is frickin' awesome and he'll write it in a kick ass way. But I don't think anyone here is all too worried that Steve Rogers won't be back within a year or so. That's what makes it a weak sales ploy.

And you still think that cap is really going to die?

C'mon, how transparent is that?
LMD's, cosmic cubes, clones (and before people start ranting, please bear in mind that the Red Skull used to be a clone of Steve Rogers), and so many other ways to bring a character back and/or fake his death.

This is not so different from what happened with John Walker taking the Cap mantle way back when.
I'm sure there will always be a Cap around.
The government does need one such symbol.
They don't need it to be Steve Rogers.

How ironic would it be if the USAgent that appears in Omega Flight was really Steve Rogers?

John Cord

03-07-2007, 09:24 AM

Can anyone think of a significant Marvel "death" that has ever been permanent? Who holds the record? Bucky? Gwen Stacy?

I'd think that Uncle Ben is the only Marvel supporting character who is certain to remain dead. Bring him back and suddenly Spider-Man - Marvel's biggest cash cow- has no reason to exist.

Regarding the news of Cap's demise: considering the character assassination attempt that he underwent in Civil War, the news that he just stopped a bullet without his shield isn't surprising. :p

Brubaker has done a fantastic job making Captain America interesting and relevant, so I'm not worried that the comic will suddenly become unreadable.

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 09:27 AM

If Bendis is writing the dialog? Experience tells me anything goes.

Huh.

No.

Experience tells me that if Bendis is writing the dialog, it is a good story.

But i must be one of them "New Avengers by Brian Michael Bendis fan that has no mind at all"...

Redmond

03-07-2007, 09:28 AM

So what has Brubaker done except bringing back Bucky, written 17 tedious issues about a 3rd Summers brother and created a bad Final Fantasy character into the Shiar (10 years too late btw).

SeanMurphy

03-07-2007, 09:29 AM

Lead character is in jail.
Major character is apparently killed.
Brubaker should watch out, he might be falling in a rut. : )

No, everyone knows this won't last. Just like no one believe Superman would be powerless for long after Infinite Crisis. Or would stay dead. Or that Batman wouldn't eventually walk again after having his back broken by Bane. Or that Hal Jordan would stay dead. Or that Aquaman would be gone forever after Our Worlds at War or Wonder Woman would remain a godess or.... You get the picture. Surprise plot twists are a big part of the repetoire of all the major companies and getting pissed off about them...

And frankly, this seems reasonable to me if this is a ploy by Fury or the anti-registration group. They have already shown they don't agree with this law... why would they let their leader go to jail for it?

ReVaNcHe

03-07-2007, 09:29 AM

The Winter Soldier will be the new Captain America

Angelophile

03-07-2007, 09:30 AM

Read the issue. Your question is answered.

MattB

It wasn't a question I needed answered. It was speculation. ;)

Anyway, we all know Steve's not dead. He's just substituted himself with a decoy and is spending all his time HERE. (http://www.myspace.com/capofamerica)

Nightfly

03-07-2007, 09:31 AM

Cap is not Ronin.
Read New Avengers 27 and you'll see what i mean.

Does Cap say "yo"?

Thought not.
Ever heard of G.I.Joe?
Yo Joe!

Doc Whiskey

03-07-2007, 09:31 AM

Looks like Axl Rose was right.

kitty_tc

03-07-2007, 09:33 AM

I'm thinking "Death of Superman" here, and not in a bad way.

At the time they killed him, Superman was in a crisis of relevance, and his death launched a long and interesting arc where different ideas were explored while the fictional world struggled to fill the gap he left behind. And while I think that arc jumped the shark in the end, what with the elements like the Coast City destruction and cheap copout turn of the Cyborg into a one-dimensional moustache twirler, but for a while the arc was thought provoking, interesting, and relevant, and brought up a lot of issues that spoke to what Superman meant as a character, what he was about, and what he says about our culture. It was intense stuff until DC took the lame way out, and I have no doubt whatever that Ed Brubaker can take this in all the directions the World Without a Superman arc went in and then some without selling it out at the end.

What does Captain America mean in our world? Is he just a relic? Do we need him anymore? Is he past his usefulness? And what does it say about us if he is?

When the WWaS arc started, we were given replacement options that were things Superman was criticized for not being, and it said a lot about the Superman character and the culture that had passed him by.

* In the Eradicator, we got the edgy, black-wearing vigilante type, who addressed all the complaints over the years that Superman was old fashioned and his morality was out of date and his whole style needed to be updated into something more dark and gritty.

* In Kid Superman, we got a hip, youthful, cutting edge hero who addressed the complaints that Superman was "your grandfather's hero" and had nothing to say to a modern culture and audience. He was the epitome of the same forces that say Spider-man has to be in high school or the X-men have to be made into teenagers to connect with the youth of today, the idea that a hero has to be made young and modern in order to be "relatable".

* In Steel, we got a black, working class intellectual Superman, addressing the longstanding complaint that Superman and all the other classic superheroes of his age were white conservative males, and that diversity was needed. Personally I'd have liked to see that taken a step farther and a minority woman used, but the Matrix Supergirl was handling the "female Superman" angle just fine so I suppose that would have made it redundant.

* Ironically, the Cyborg was a stand-in for the traditional Superman... he looked different, but went out of his way to establish himself as the classic original to the point where his characterization was strongly reminiscent of Christopher Reeve. He became the vehicle for reader nostalgia and and an example that the traditional Superman could still be worth having around.

Together they proved to readers that despite the truth in the criticisms, there's just no replacing a classic and there is always a place for something timeless.

Captain America is ripe for this kind of treatment, and they've truly set up for it in the lead-in to this event. The emphasis on his supposed irrelevance makes his absence all the more poignant, and the ensuing arc can serve well to prove why he's needed as we learn why he's missed. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, and you never know what you've got until it's gone.

The potential for social and political commentary here is deep and rich, and the heroic myth formula of being taken down to zero and fighting back from it is timeless.

This could very well be the best Captain America story since Gruenwald's classic "Captain America No More" story from the 80's, and there's no one better than Ed Brubaker to bring that potential to life.

]o[mosaic]o[

03-07-2007, 09:34 AM

ok, here's what we need:

a young cap- patriot
a bad-ass cap- usagent
an armored cap- jack flag in the old "robo-cap" armor
a cyborg cap- bucky

then, in 9 months or so, steve rogers returns, with a mullet!

:D :p

FChamberlain

03-07-2007, 09:35 AM

Nice post Kittytc

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 09:35 AM

Ever heard of G.I.Joe?
Yo Joe!

Is Cap G.I. Joe, is that it?

And Axl was very wrong.

We did need a Civil War.
Had it failed, it wouldn´t have sold what it did.
Nor would it have this kind of controversy.

Ah, but i forget. This is Marvel we´re talking about.
A mere article with a few paragraphs about a comic that hasn't even come out YET and we've already got four pages full of posts.

I predict... eight more pages.

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 09:36 AM

This is a slea ploy. Anyone that doesn't think so needs to think it through. Why get something in the papers besides to sell the comic.

This is one of two things

1) Cap is really dead and we will see a new Cap. As every other time they tried tor eplace Cap they realized it doesn't work and he will be back. I've read Cap for 25 years. I've read The Spirit of 76, The Patriot, The Grand Dictator, Rocco, US Agent and nameless people think they could but on Cap's uniform. It always comes back to one thing. Steve Rogers is Captain America. I guess we have to show the fans that every so often.

2) This is all a ruse and a fake. Cap will be alive and a retread of what they did with USAgent. Tony will have something to do with I bet and now we'll have fake assasinations to add to the stuff done in the name of the "greater good".

I will read the issue. Depending on what they do I will decide if I drop all Marvel together.

sniperboy65

03-07-2007, 09:37 AM

This whole Civil War storyline was just terrible. I would rather see Cap dead than have his character destroyed anymore than it already has been. I heard a rumor that the Punisher will becoming the new Captain America. That is just swell...

R.I.P. Cap

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 09:38 AM

Nice post Kittytc

Seconded.
Well thought-out post.

Kudos to you!

Jed Saxon

03-07-2007, 09:39 AM

*yawn* <gugu>

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 09:40 AM

chairhead

03-07-2007, 09:41 AM

Huh.
There's got to be more to this than, you know, meets the eye.

I'm fairly sure killing Cap with a movie in development (plus a possible Avengers flick on the way as well) would not be very sensible.

So, i shall wait and see.
Needless to say that i have utter faith in Brubaker.

Funny enough, this article does say that Cap is shot, but it fails to mention Steve Rogers...

Edit:

But the NYNews article does, sorry.

Maybe he was 'killed' so Steve/Cap could get out of being in jail and go back to Superheroics. Go underground for a while and when you pop back up everyone will just be ok with your lack of being dead and in jail. :P

darrenmdr

03-07-2007, 09:42 AM

Thirded Kitty. Can't think of anything worth adding to that. You have officially killed the thread.:D

HulkSmashNow

03-07-2007, 09:46 AM

Another bonehead move from Marvel, and just about as smart as D.C. during "Doomsday" and "Knightfall." Yet, those stories actually sold more comics, and Cap's death, alas, will not.

But, just like everyone's stated, Cap's not dead, or won't be dead for long. I mean, they brought Bucky back to life, for Pete's sake!

J. Wilson

03-07-2007, 09:46 AM

No offense to Brubaker, but I have absolutely no faith in Marvel Comics at all now.

Civil War has done a lot to destroy the Marvel Universe. To allow Captain America to lose out to Tony Stark, be tongue lashed by an idiot reporter, and now finally killed off (In what I can only think is a big FU to Joe Simon over the lawsuit), is just another thread in what is killing all that is good about the MU.

Man, and I thought DC made some bad decisions with their whole last couple of years.

spidertour02

03-07-2007, 09:47 AM

What baffles me is how people can decide to "drop all Marvel together" on account of one story...

... that they have yet to read, I might add. ;)

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 09:47 AM

What baffles me is how people can decide to "drop all Marvel together" on account of one story...
What baffles me is how someone can think it will be because of one story.

Let's see read Amazing Spider-Man. Didn't like it after a while Dropped it

Have read Fantastic Four. Not liking the look of the new direction. Dropping it

Don't like New Avengers - dropped it

Will try Mighty Avengers but given my track record with liking Bendis I may drop that.

I am not liking a lot of the Marvel I am reading so I am dropping it. Right now, not counting some minis that are soon ending. I have She-Hulk and Captain America.

If I don't like Captain America I will drop it.

When one of the last titles you read in a company goes ina direction you don't like that is how you can drop all Marvel because of one story.

Does that clear things up for you?

Doc Whiskey

03-07-2007, 09:47 AM

And Axl was very wrong.

We did need a Civil War.

I was refferring to the line from "Paradise City",
"Captain America's been torn apart, now he's a court jester with a broken heart"

delawarejoel

03-07-2007, 09:48 AM

...they are already soliciting Cap #26 and telling us it will "set up the next year's worth of Cap stories." Nuff said. Brubaker "killed" the Red Skull in Cap #1, too, and he doesnt appear to have gone anywhere....

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 09:48 AM

... that they have yet to read, I might add. ;)

Hey, maybe you should read what I said. I said I will read the issue. If I don't like it, I will drop it.

Ian

03-07-2007, 09:49 AM

Cap is not Ronin.
Read New Avengers 27 and you'll see what i mean.

Does Cap say "yo"?

Thought not.

Yeah but who thought a seemingly 6' 4, 250lb male figure would be Echo?

S'all fair game.

Oh, and you can kill Steve Rogers and still have a Captain America. Cap is one of Marvel's original, albeit retroactively so, and only legacy characters--of which Steve Rogers wasn't the first. I would say keep him dead for the novelty of it but in a world where Bucky is back (written expertly by Ed Brubaker) I'm not holding my breath.

Didn't Mark Millar speak somewhat presciently of this type of thing. How big deaths have lost effect because they don't stick? Just a few weeks after he wraps his "universe changing" event.

]o[mosaic]o[

03-07-2007, 09:50 AM

I was refferring to the line from "You could be mine",
"Captain America's been torn apart, now he's a court jester with a broken heart"

that's from paradise city. :cool:

deathmasterj

03-07-2007, 09:51 AM

I was refferring to the line from "You could be mine",
"Captain America's been torn apart, now he's a court jester with a broken heart"

You mean Paradise City ;)

cap infinity

03-07-2007, 09:54 AM

This was a spoiler? Really? I heard about this somewhere (probably in the forums) on Newsarama over a week ago.

Of course I am a little upset about this. Captain America's an icon. I'm a DC Fanboy but have been looking for some Marvels to read. I was planning to pick up Cap, but if it's going to be a year of Frank Castle as Cap or crap like that then I guess I'll have to wait until Steve is back.

One good thing about Civil War though, it's saved me money by stopping me from reading any Marvel Comics.

BornToRun

03-07-2007, 09:55 AM

I know that it's temporary.

I know that Brubaker is genius.

I know that it's not a big deal. This is Nick and Sharon conspiring to get Steve out of the limelight so that he can work for them, a la Waid & Garney's "Man Without a Country" arc or any other number of times that Rogers hasn't been Cap in the way that we know Cap.

But, NO. That's it for me. I'm a DC guy anyway, it'll be easy to cut Marvel out of my diet.

Jmacq1

03-07-2007, 09:55 AM

What baffles me is how people can decide to "drop all Marvel together" on account of one story...

There's always one straw that breaks the camel's back. If they firmly believe that Marvel Comics is not writing the kind of stories they want to read, why should they spend money on them?

On a completely unrelated note: I hope Sally Floyd and Ben Urich slap themselves silly for completely blowing the chance to have the "last Captain America Interview".

Jamal Y. Igle

03-07-2007, 09:56 AM

Looks like James Buchanan Barnes will become Captain America.

Bevbos

03-07-2007, 09:56 AM

I broke down and spoiled myself for this... but I don't care, I'm really looking forward to reading it.

Jmacq1

03-07-2007, 09:58 AM

Ace

03-07-2007, 10:02 AM

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 10:05 AM

What baffles me is how someone can think it will be because of one story.

Let's see read Amazing Spider-Man. Didn't like it after a while Dropped it

Have read Fantastic Four. Not liking the look of the new direction. Dropping it

Don't like New Avengers - dropped it

Will try Mighty Avengers but given my track record with liking Bendis I may drop that.

I am not liking a lot of the Marvel I am reading so I am dropping it. Right now, not counting some minis that are soon ending. I have She-Hulk and Captain America.

If I don't like Captain America I will drop it.

When one of the last titles you read in a company goes ina direction you don't like that is how you can drop all Marvel because of one story.

Does that clear things up for you?

It would, sure, if Marvel only published those titles.

Let´s see, off the top of my head here are ten titles that you haven´t mentioned that are as good as, or better, than anything else on the market right now.

1 - Spider-Man loves Mary Jane
2 - The Immortal Iron Fist
3 - New X-men
4 - X-Factor
5 - Ultimate Fantastic Four
6 - Punisher War Journal
7 - Newuniversal
8 - Incredible Hulk
9 - Daredevil
10 - The Amazing Spider-girl

All of them ongoing, all of them very different from each other.
And i could easily give you another ten titles.

sol

03-07-2007, 10:05 AM

Read the issue. Your question is answered.

MattB
Yeah, but I'd think it would be Bucky or Fury or Carter before I'd actually go out there and say Castle does it. Still, this takes wind out of the sails on this 'news'.

If they kill Steve Rogers, i'm done with comics, anyway.

bumpusth

03-07-2007, 10:06 AM

Cap is not Ronin.
Read New Avengers 27 and you'll see what i mean.

Does Cap say "yo"?

Thought not.

Mark Millar seems to make cap say whatever the hell he thinks is "snappy" in civil war, so i wouldn't rule that out.

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 10:09 AM

lordlad

03-07-2007, 10:12 AM

If cap is dead, does that means that Brubaker's title will be officially changed to 'Winter Soldier' ??? ;)

FChamberlain

03-07-2007, 10:14 AM

It would, sure, if Marvel only published those titles.

Let´s see, off the top of my head here are ten titles that you haven´t mentioned that are as good as, or better, than anything else on the market right now.

Taste is subjective.

4 - X-Factor
9 - Daredevil

These are the only 2 titles from your list that I am in agreement with. I've tried 9 of the 10 titles you listed.

All of them ongoing, all of them very different from each other.
And i could easily give you another ten titles.

No doubt. I am in a similar boat to the poster that you are replying to. Marvel's current direction is leaving me cold. As of the last preorder, I am down to maybe 4 or 5 titles. A year ago, I was picking up nearly 30. I'm glad that many are enjoying it, but that universe and most of its characters have become nearly unrecognizable to me.

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 10:17 AM

It would, sure, if Marvel only published those titles.

Let´s see, off the top of my head here are ten titles that you haven´t mentioned that are as good as, or better, than anything else on the market right now.

1 - Spider-Man loves Mary Jane
2 - The Immortal Iron Fist
3 - New X-men
4 - X-Factor
5 - Ultimate Fantastic Four
6 - Punisher War Journal
7 - Newuniversal
8 - Incredible Hulk
9 - Daredevil
10 - The Amazing Spider-girl

All of them ongoing, all of them very different from each other.
And i could easily give you another ten titles.

Now is it at all possible that I may disagree with you about those titiles. I
Is it possible I have tried some of those titles and don't like them?

Is OK to disagree with you or should I blindly follow your example.
Not a fan of Daredevil. Never really been.
Same with Punsiher. I tried War Journal, dropped it.
I don't like the Ultimate line
Never a real fan of Hulk or Iron Fist.

Do you buy every single Marvel title?

Now if I am finsihed with Marvel after thise because I've dropped titles I never said I was done forever. If they publish somehting that looks interesting to me I will pick it up.

Dman

03-07-2007, 10:17 AM

I trust Bru.

And I trust Brevoort to some level when it comes to a decision like this, having read his thoughts about Bucky).

There's a big list of guys i don't trust with decisions like this (Millar, Loeb, Quesada, Alonso, Bendis), but given the title, I assume that the two most important people involved are Brevoort and Brubaker.

So I'll wait and see.

but was this Bru's idea or Joe's, i haven't kept up with it to know, i'm sure Bru had a pretty good outline of where he wanted to go with cap before Civil War changed things.

CCGuy

03-07-2007, 10:20 AM

lkgemini

03-07-2007, 10:20 AM

Am I the only one feeling a bit betrayed by both major publishers? This couldn't have been part of the actual Civil War main series? I don't have a problem with characters being killed (and probably coming back again) but this just feels like a cheap stunt. Add to this that they still might kill off Mary Jane, and one has to get the sense Marvel is more about cheap shocks than story telling.

And before I get flamed for being a DC man (which I am,) I don't feel that company is doing much better either. We have a 52 which answered almost none of the questions that it was supposed to: "what happened to our favorite characters in the missing year?" Now they need extra issues to say something (how the hell is 52 issues not enough?!) And they plan on launching another weekly book where again, nothing will probably happen.

So you can officially Make Mine Anybody Else! Superheroes are now all shock, no story.

SuperginraiX

03-07-2007, 10:21 AM

I'm actually hoping that they end up bringing him back sooner rather than later simply because of Joe Simon. It's kind of a bummer that his creation was killed when he's in his nineties... we all know that it isn't permanent, but still.

It also seems that he wasn't given a heads up by Marvel before this happened... or he WAS and knows a little of how it plays out and gave an answer that would play to the paper... I don't know.

Either way, for ME this is actually pretty exciting as it want me to see what happens next. Who replaces Cap? It reminds me of the Death of Superman because it allows Marvel to tell some stories that would have been otherwise unavailable outside of a What If and we all KNOW how popular What Ifs are.

And six months to a year from now Steve can return to prominence.

Doc Whiskey

03-07-2007, 10:22 AM

o[mosaic]o[']that's from paradise city. :cool:

yea duh i'm on drugs. just a little shaken up still from the news. thanks for making me feel like an idiot in front of everyone.

Doc Whiskey

03-07-2007, 10:23 AM

You mean Paradise City ;)

cannot..................edit............ ....fast............enough..

Dman

03-07-2007, 10:24 AM

so when are we getting the 4 different versions?

I vote for Capboy

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 10:27 AM

Taste is subjective.

4 - X-Factor
9 - Daredevil

These are the only 2 titles from your list that I am in agreement with. I've tried 9 of the 10 titles you listed.

No doubt. I am in a similar boat to the poster that you are replying to. Marvel's current direction is leaving me cold. As of the last preorder, I am down to maybe 4 or 5 titles. A year ago, I was picking up nearly 30. I'm glad that many are enjoying it, but that universe and most of its characters have become nearly unrecognizable to me.

It's things moving forwards, that´s what it is.
I started reading comics when i was about 5, so that was 25 years ago.
And it's all changed so much.

I sometimes think that so few of those who post here went through the dreadful early to mid 90's, comics-wise.

I mean, right now?
It's so much better.

But i also understand people's gripes and fears, i do.
I really like New Avengers, but it's not the Avengers i grew up with.
For me, they should really be Earth's mightiest heroes, and when was the last time they were really that?

Perhaps during Avengers Forever?

Everything changes.

My only real problem with the way certain characters have been portrayed has been with Taskmaster.
Geez, in my head he´s a guy that almost sinlge-handedly could take down anyone.

And i think that Marvel´s one mistake with this new Thunderbolts title was not calling it "Masters of Evil"... :)

SpaceButler

03-07-2007, 10:30 AM

Trust the bru. :)

Fletcher

03-07-2007, 10:30 AM

Other than the fact that characters in either DC or Marvel do not stay dead ( neither company would want to lose any kind of copyright) there is no way Marvel is going to kill off one of their best, most recognizable characters. They're not going to kill him with a movie in the works. It is just not going to happen. The companies, it seems, are at the whim of the movie studios. Spider Man 3 has the black costume in it so all the comic titles have to have the black costume in it. Whatever the Cap movie does I would not be surprised to see the book follow.But for that to be the case he has to be alive. I'm not trying to sound like I am cracking on anyone it is just an opinion.

Anyhoo.....I am more interested in the fact that Joe Simon is his 90s! Man, if I could still be kicking and screaming in my 90s that would rock!

gsam4ever

03-07-2007, 10:32 AM

Boricuastorm

03-07-2007, 10:35 AM

He aint dead. Bru has a plan.
Agreed. Bru's got a plan. Right, Bru'?...RIGHT???!!!!!:mad:
Besides I read said article and it mentioned Cap gettin' shot on in the shoulder and stomach. His uniform is supposed to be somewhat 'bullet-proof', right?

Dman

03-07-2007, 10:35 AM

Hahahahahaha!!!! Dead?!? That's a good one. Dead in the Marvel dictionary must mean gone for an extended period of time....until they can "resurrect" him in their next over-hyped event. Now, loving Brubaker like I do, I know that the stories coming from this turn of events will be great but DEAD!!!! I don't think so.

see it's a trick, they killed him 'cause they know that these guys never die and will come back, but maybe that's what they want us to think, and this time the joke is on us 'cause they will keep him dead.................................... .....

or not

shady878

03-07-2007, 10:40 AM

Storywise I sure think this is cool but if anybody seriously thinks he's dead, you might want to get your head examined...he'll be back.

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 10:40 AM

Now is it at all possible that I may disagree with you about those titiles. I
Is it possible I have tried some of those titles and don't like them?

Is OK to disagree with you or should I blindly follow your example.
Not a fan of Daredevil. Never really been.
Same with Punsiher. I tried War Journal, dropped it.
I don't like the Ultimate line
Never a real fan of Hulk or Iron Fist.

Do you buy every single Marvel title?

Now if I am finsihed with Marvel after thise because I've dropped titles I never said I was done forever. If they publish somehting that looks interesting to me I will pick it up.

That's the beauty of it, Blue Beetle.
You don't have to like anything at all.
But all of us should set an example for everyone else that might just get into comics because of stunts like these.
I, for one, disagree with bad-mouthing something just for its sake.
How does that help?
It doesn´t.
All this pointless bickering does is drive new readers away.

Look, i've always read huge amounts of comics.
But i kinda stopped reading DC regularly because i felt that the titles weren't really going anywhere storywise, at least.
The last really great and truly original book i read from DC was Hitman, and that was a while ago.

But do you see me badmouthing DC left and right?
Why should i do that, when i don't even read DC?

Now, for me at least, Marvel feels exciting.
Civil War, as an event made me very happy.
Does that mean i am easier to please?
Not at all.
But here´s the rub : I was always on Iron Man's side, much as i love Cap.
The only thing i think that they failed on Cap's characterization is that he SHOULD have known that he would never win.
But does Cap know what to give up mean?

I already know the answer people have in mind, viz : CW #7.

Bearing in mind that you feel how you feel, i think that you should stick around.
Amazing things are coming our way, i think.

Superfrick

03-07-2007, 10:42 AM

I call shennaegains! I'm sure Steve Rodgers is just fine

FChamberlain

03-07-2007, 10:42 AM

It's things moving forwards, that´s what it is.
I started reading comics when i was about 5, so that was 25 years ago.
And it's all changed so much.

I have ya beat. I began reading when I was 5 or so as well.... about 35 years ago.

I don't view it as things moving forward, since comics have evolved quite a bit and have certainly moved forward over the years.

I sometimes think that so few of those who post here went through the dreadful early to mid 90's, comics-wise.

I mean, right now?
It's so much better.

I went through the 90's. While the stories are certainly better constructed for the most part, I don't know that I agree with you as far as being currently "better". My biggest concern is that I don't remotely recognize some of Marvel's iconic characters. Even in the 90's, badly written stories utilized characters that I recognized. Today, not so much.... and CW was not better than the stuff in the 90's.

But i also understand people's gripes and fears, i do.
I really like New Avengers, but it's not the Avengers i grew up with.
For me, they should really be Earth's mightiest heroes, and when was the last time they were really that?

Perhaps during Avengers Forever?

Everything changes.

I don't know that you do understand. I have no fear about comics, nor do I not understand that everything changes. I love adversity that the heroes come up against, but I demand that the heroes are consistant in their personaliztion and actions. If there is inconsistancies, they should be depicted as naturally as possible. A character that suddenly does something inconsistant with 45 years of characterization should not do so within the the first few pages and throughout a 7 issue series. Marvel comics will be written differently than they currently are at some point. That is the nature of the medium. I just will need to keep an eye out for when that happens.

My only real problem with the way certain characters have been portrayed has been with Taskmaster.
Geez, in my head he´s a guy that almost sinlge-handedly could take down anyone.

Moon Knight is unreadable for me and I am going to get rid of the run and cut my loses. The one thing I had no issue with is Taskmaster being beaten down. Seeming inconsistancies in strength and being taken down by lesser powerful characters has been a constant for decades.

DarkNomis

03-07-2007, 10:42 AM

NO WAY, NO F*$%KIN' WAY ! :mad: :mad: :mad:

THIS HAVE GOT TO BE A JOKE OR A MISDIRECTION OR SOMETHING LIKE DEATH OF SUPERMAN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT BECAUSE IF IT"S TRUE AND THEY BRING IN USAGENT OR WINTER SOLDIER OR SOME WANNA-BE TO BE BE THE NEXT CAP AMERICA OR SOME CRAP LIKE THAT THEN I'M THROUGH WITH MARVEL!

CAP AMERICA IS THE BEST SERIES OUT THERE RIGHT NOW AND HE BETTER NOT DIE WHILE THAT NEO-NAZI TONY STARK IS SET UP TO RULE THE WORLD WITH AN IRON FIST,LITERALLY!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Although winter soldier as cap will be kinda cool..... :p

I am MODOK

03-07-2007, 10:44 AM

Just wait. Marvel will be embarrassed next month when Cap shows up in issue 26.

JohnNah

03-07-2007, 10:45 AM

Cap is faking his death with a LMD, it's a classic Marvel WWII hero plot or so i think?

Agreed. He's prob hiding out with Nick Fury and he'll be back in 2008's big event. It'll be a fun ride until he comes back I'm sure. I'm looking forward to it.

lfhobbies

03-07-2007, 10:48 AM

Don't know if anyone already mentioned this but there is the possibility of Tony setting up a clonebot (Marvels new toy like Thor) that was seen in Civil War - when they were working on the Clor model - you see it in the comic. and it looks like Steve.

Of course Steve Rogers isn't really dead - I don't think it will be Ronin but he'll be back within a year

James

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 10:53 AM

dkc_2001

03-07-2007, 10:53 AM

This is why I don't buy Marvel anymore.

Mercury

03-07-2007, 10:56 AM

*Gasp*..!!! you mean... seriously.. the MAINSTREAM mentioned it?? It was in a BLURB? A News Station brought it up?? This is AMAZING! This is IT, gang!!! I bet today, after work, thousands of mainstream fans rush out and buy comics!!! And you know, if a COMIC is mentioned on a news show, I bet its with total reverence, seriousness, and respect- totally NOT bemused tones, sarcasm, and smirks. This is gonna change EVERYTHING!!! Validation, here we come!!!!

Dman

03-07-2007, 10:56 AM

steve rogers is not dead, but he must let the world think that he is dead...

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 10:57 AM

I have ya beat. I began reading when I was 5 or so as well.... about 35 years ago.

I don't view it as things moving forward, since comics have evolved quite a bit and have certainly moved forward over the years.

I went through the 90's. While the stories are certainly better constructed for the most part, I don't know that I agree with you as far as being currently "better". My biggest concern is that I don't remotely recognize some of Marvel's iconic characters. Even in the 90's, badly written stories utilized characters that I recognized. Today, not so much.... and CW was not better than the stuff in the 90's.

I don't know that you do understand. I have no fear about comics, nor do I not understand that everything changes. I love adversity that the heroes come up against, but I demand that the heroes are consistant in their personaliztion and actions. If there is inconsistancies, they should be depicted as naturally as possible. A character that suddenly does something inconsistant with 45 years of characterization should not do so within the the first few pages and throughout a 7 issue series. Marvel comics will be written differently than they currently are at some point. That is the nature of the medium. I just will need to keep an eye out for when that happens.

Moon Knight is unreadable for me and I am going to get rid of the run and cut my loses. The one thing I had no issue with is Taskmaster being beaten down. Seeming inconsistancies in strength and being taken down by lesser powerful characters has been a constant for decades.

Man, demanding that heroes be consistent after 45 years of existence is something.
How can you demand that?
Are you consistent with yourself?
Have you never done anything that's out of your character?

Hah.

You remember when Gru had Cap killing those guys, who were they, Flag-Smasher's cronies?

Wow, that was consistent.
Considering that Cap was last seen killing in the 40's.

Or does Baron Blood count?

FChamberlain

03-07-2007, 10:57 AM

steve rogers is not dead, but he must let the world think that he is dead...

heh.

Thanks for the chuckle... now I am going to have that theme music and consistant piano key sequence in my head for the remainder of the day.

BanMan

03-07-2007, 11:00 AM

Just wait. Marvel will be embarrassed next month when Cap shows up in issue 26.

It's not like it's Marvel's fault the media decided to make a big deal out of it.

Ok maybe they DID pass something around. But it's the same thing about like the media making a big deal about Batwoman being a buxom lipstick lesbian...whatever that means.

Dman

03-07-2007, 11:01 AM

heh.

Thanks for the chuckle... now I am going to have that theme music and consistant piano key sequence in my head for the remainder of the day.

no problem, we need to put this into prospective

Lanowar

03-07-2007, 11:03 AM

Wow I must say the reactions here border on just the bizzare he's dead bamn shot dead. He'll be back sure we ALL know this but for now he's dead jim. Most people knew he was going to die I feel sorry for the people who only just found out that he has croaked.

Steve be back obviously he will but for now we just need to go "oh he's dead" and just wait as four guys show up showing up claiming to be cap reborn-- a young cap, a black cap, a cap energy being and a evil cyborg cap. That said I hear there all imposters and soon enough captain america will return with 90's hair...

jmcl89

03-07-2007, 11:05 AM

Cap isn't the sort of character that should return from actually being dead. Granted, DC and Marvel can always do that sort of thing, but I think it kind of sucks unless you are dealing with a mystical or alien character. If his death is faked somehow, that's kind of lame in terms of all the hype, but it could produce a good story.

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 11:05 AM

That's the beauty of it, Blue Beetle.
You don't have to like anything at all.
But all of us should set an example for everyone else that might just get into comics because of stunts like these.
I, for one, disagree with bad-mouthing something just for its sake.
How does that help?
It doesn´t.
All this pointless bickering does is drive new readers away.

Bearing in mind that you feel how you feel, i think that you should stick around.
Amazing things are coming our way, i think.

Who is bickering. I am not bickering. I said if I don't like the direction Cap goes I will stop reading it. If I do like it, I will read it. I am upset that I will be dropping the titles I have collected for years but I won't buy stuff I don't like.

I have consistant runs of over 10-20 years in titles like Avengers and Captain America.
I am not saying anyone should not read the titles they like.

I am happy you are enjoying the titles and directions Marvel is taking. I hope to be proven wrong. I was with DC after the death of Blue Beetle. I am buying more DC than before.

If I bought titles I didn't like I would be told not to buy stuff you didn't like. So I am not. Again, will try the issues but if I don't like them my money will go elsewhere.

I don't see what is wrong with this line of thinking.

NeoSamurai

03-07-2007, 11:06 AM

Cap's been dead at least three times before in continuity (frozen in ice, Waid's run, and the Onslaught arch). I really don't see why people are taking in the kool-aid that Marvel's serving for this publicity. There's also been replacement Captain America's as well.

Seriously--I don't get what the big deal is except for people who never read the comics or aren't familiar with the character. Even if Bru really had Rogers gacked "for good/permanently"--it's only going to be a story-arch away before a fan-writer in the vein of Geoff Johns or Busiek (two people which I actually credit Brubaker as being like in style) finds a way to write him back alive.

It really is ridiculous.

FChamberlain

03-07-2007, 11:06 AM

Man, demanding that heroes be consistent after 45 years of existence is something.
How can you demand that?
Are you consistent with yourself?
Have you never done anything that's out of your character?

Hah.

I took the time to respond respectfully to your post and, despite your smugness, I'll do so one more time.

Comics are a serial form of entertainment that have been set up to provide the illusion of change. Peter Parker is a guilt-ridden guy who agonizes over every decision and at the end of the day goes his own way based on his sense of responsibility to his loved ones. When that changes, than he is no longer Peter Parker. The consistancy that I speak of is focused on the core of the characters. Change their clothes, their costumes, etc and I have no issue with it. Make them act in ways that are unrecognizable without a really good, in-depth explanation and it turns to .... People in the real world have moments of inconsistant behavior. It is usually short-term and the behavior goes back to what has been learned previously. It has been said numerous times throughout the years, that fiction must be more believable than reality. Peter's revelations, Cap's behavior throughout the war, etc were way out of character in my mind. The inconsistant behavior came out of nowhere at the beginning of CW.

You remember when Gru had Cap killing those guys, who were they, Flag-Smasher's cronies?

Wow, that was consistent.

It was consistant. He killed a single individual in an extreme circumstance and agonized over it the moment he did it and for some time afterwards. He didn't change as a character. It was within his character.

GenerallZodd

03-07-2007, 11:06 AM

Haha at the new media "picking this story up".

Marvel is purposely planting this thing out there BEGGING the media to pick it up. They've probably got somebody on AP emailing the Cap image all over the net. It's Draw Attention To Yourself 101.

Johnny Smith

03-07-2007, 11:08 AM

Boo! Hiss!

Not only was this spoiled (by major news sites) before I get the comic, now I'll have to race around town to find a copy of Cap 25 :mad:

Zig Zag Wanderer

03-07-2007, 11:08 AM

When, and where, exactly, did you see Bucky actually die?

WHAT IF? #5, where it's acknowledged by the Watcher, for one.

Brubaker has done amazing stuff with the Winter Soldier, and I'll bet he'll continue to do so whether or not Bucky becomes Cap. But the character was as dead as it is possible to get in comics.

Twain1202

03-07-2007, 11:10 AM

This is my first post here I think...I'm not surprised it took this to bring me out of lurkdom though.

Firstly just to be clear I need to vent and rant a bit..so if you don't like what I'm going to say then please don't jump all over me, just let me vent...and move on :P

Secondly, while I am a HUGE Captain America fan, I have no problem with his death. I'm not super obsessed, and realize he is a comic book character and the chances of him staying (really being?) dead are slim to none, with none already having a toe across the finish line. As others have theorized in this thread (and I do apologize, but I haven't read each and every post..as I am a bit peeved :P ). I trust Brubaker to have a plan, and I am quite sure it will be a great story.

However, I am more annoyed with the fact that I went to my frotn door, picked up my copy of the NY Daily News, read the sports section over breakfast, then turned to read about the "important" (or should that be impotant) news, and there on page 3 in huge headline type reads "CAPTAIN AMERICA KILLED!". WTF? Dude no spoilers, no warning,, NOTHING. A comic I was eagerly anticpating is now spoiled for me. Normally I read spoilers, don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people wanting to know what happens. However I am usually given the chance to choose wether or not a story is spoiled for me. I had no choice in this...no warning, nothing. The newspapers do not spoil TV shows, or movies, or "real" books. However they had no problem spoiling this?

I am not even upset with the NY Daily News, I am quite sure..and to me it is quite obvious, that Marvel contacted the NY Daily News with this "exclusive" story, and told them what is going to happen. I truly doubt that the NY Daily News had investigative reporters trying to discover future comic book storylines.

I also understand the need for Marvel to promote themselves, and their books. I'm quite sure that this mornings story, will send droves of people to local comic book shops in search for today's Captain America 25. I don't want to belittle the necessity of the promotion, Marvel needs it, and more importantly anything that gets people to step into a local comic book shop is a good thing.

However two things really really are getting my temper up. Firstly, Marvel could have gotten this great press, and the need promotion, but it could have been done...tomorrow. There is no reason to spoil the story, at the expense of the loyal fans you already have.
Secondly...if this news story does in fact drive tons of new people into the Comic Shops looking for this issue specifically...who does that hurt? The loyal fans who already ARE in the comic shops. I doubt people who don't read comics will buy anything BUT Captain America #25...which will leave less copies on the shelves for people who should be buying it..the people who HAVE been reading comics. So in essence, the comic shops will sell out on Cap #25, but it will be the people already buying the comics who will be left holding the bag if they aren't able to get it today. Either they will have to go without it, or they will have to pay more than cover price to secure it.

The newspapers wouldn't print a story ruining the end to the seventh Harry Potter book, or detailing what will happen in the season finale of Lost. So is it too much to ask that I not have a story line in one of my favorite comics books outted before I have any chance of reading it?

This story will give Marvel a short term boost, but unfortunatly it is at the expense of the people who already are loyal to them.

DarkNomis

03-07-2007, 11:13 AM

Yeah, just like when they brought that wannabe Rogers to replace Isaiah Bradley!

Oh, wait...

You kow what would be cool (but somwhat justifiable) is having PATRIOT (Isaiah Bradley grandson) to be CAPTAIN AMERICA for a while.

Now that would raise some eyebrows! :D

fredlknedl

03-07-2007, 11:17 AM

his eventual "resurrection" is only 2 TPB's worth of stories away, just in time for next years megaevent that'll change everything (again) (for the worse)
or maybe it'll be 3 4 issue tpbs

crazy crazy :eek:

ugh...

jeircho

03-07-2007, 11:17 AM

Why? I mean really -- why?

Don't they find it ridiculous the number of times Red Skull was killed only to now kill Cap yet again? Jesus, they use these death issues as these stupid excuses to tell "good" stories. But all they do is end up like REIGN OF SUPERMEN.

Whatever!

TF_Loki

03-07-2007, 11:17 AM

I'm convinced of Captain America's irreplaceability.
I'm not convinced of Steve Roger's irreplaceability.

And it would let Marvel soft reboot Cap in time for the film. I think it might be more real than you imagine.

tunabeard

03-07-2007, 11:17 AM

He aint dead. Bru has a plan.

If this hasn't been floated around yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see Steve Rogers become the new "Iron Man" during the "Fallen Sons" storyline, now that Tony Stark has become the new Director of Shield. Seeing how this being played about smells like when "The Punisher" supposedly killed Nick Fury a couple of years ago.

wvcomixfan

03-07-2007, 11:17 AM

Cap is an icon; whatever is going on, I don't think he's dead. And as far as Ronin goes -- Hawkeye has been known to say "Yo" on more than one occasion.

caats19

03-07-2007, 11:19 AM

DAMN! i dont see why this couldn't happen in civil war though? atleast something big woulda happened at the end. though i'm sure that's been said earlier i just haven't read

RevLopez1313

03-07-2007, 11:20 AM

This is all a plot by marvel to get me to drop all of their books. Brilliantly done, only three more to go.

LaughingJak

03-07-2007, 11:21 AM

I really can't put my finger on why - but this really bothers me. I guess no good can come from it - one way or the other.

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 11:21 AM

Ace

03-07-2007, 11:22 AM

This is when Marvel makes me happy and puts Vance Astrovik in the suit... right?

Who's with me?

Hello?

Anyone?

Sarawi

03-07-2007, 11:22 AM

I think that what they are doing is pretty wise.....keeps us here and reading doesn't it?? ;)

DarkNomis

03-07-2007, 11:23 AM

DAMN! i dont see why this couldn't happen in civil war though? atleast something big woulda happened at the end. though i'm sure that's been said earlier i just haven't read

Man I was just thinking the same thing. At least there would've been a BIG TIME event as an ending for Cap to go down fighting going out in a blaze of glory instead of a whiming out like he did.

NeoSamurai

03-07-2007, 11:23 AM

You kow what would be cool (but somwhat justifiable) is having PATRIOT (Isaiah Bradley grandson) to be CAPTAIN AMERICA for a while.

Now that would raise some eyebrows! :D
I agree.

That's something Marvel should've been pushing. If not Bradley, Sam Wilson. Comicdom is more than ready for a black Captain America.

kallup

03-07-2007, 11:24 AM

How DARE the article mention the death of Superman and turn this into a Marvel vs DC thread?!

NeoSamurai

03-07-2007, 11:25 AM

I think that what they are doing is pretty wise.....keeps us here and reading doesn't it?? ;)
I dunno about you, but Bru's cap was on my subscription list--so I've always been reading.

dalunt

03-07-2007, 11:27 AM

http://bloodsweat.blogspot.com

I WAS RIGHT!!!! Let's see who it is who shot him, but I was right that he gets shot!! Booyah!

KraziJoe

03-07-2007, 11:29 AM

Almost got me with that one Marvel. I am not falling for it...

Jmacq1

03-07-2007, 11:31 AM

Yea... he's not dead. SPOILER WARNING...

He's on the Raft and the pro side is doing everything they can to save him. It's mentioned in Civil War: The Intiative. So yea... he ain't dead.

Me perhaps smells a "Steve Rogers: The Invincible Iron Man"

...yea, this just makes me angry.

Translated: "Actually, he's dead, but we're taking DNA samples so we can make a cyborg murderclone of him, too!"

Or conversely, it's not like Marvel hasn't had conflicting stories crop up between different titles ever before, right? Oh wait...Only for like the entire last year during the editorial nightmare that was "Civil War."

It kinda defeats the purpose if they make mainstream media attention by killing him off, only to resurrect him the very same day. He'll be gone for at least 6-12 months, maybe longer.

MattBrady

03-07-2007, 11:33 AM

He's on the Raft and the pro side is doing everything they can to save him. It's mentioned in Civil War: The Intiative. So yea... he ain't dead. Er, no. That was before the events in this ish. Read today's issue.

MattB

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 11:34 AM

WHAT IF? #5, where it's acknowledged by the Watcher, for one.

Brubaker has done amazing stuff with the Winter Soldier, and I'll bet he'll continue to do so whether or not Bucky becomes Cap. But the character was as dead as it is possible to get in comics.

That´s lame.
Answering my question with a What If answer is just... lame.
What if's are not in the dreaded continuity.

So Bucky never actually died in an actual comic.

Spaz_Monkey

03-07-2007, 11:38 AM

Can anyone think of a significant Marvel "death" that has ever been permanent? Who holds the record? Bucky? Gwen Stacy?
I was lucky enough to spend a few minutes talking with JM DeMatties over the weekend. We were discussing the fact that he killed a hero/villian, and the hero/villian has actually stayed dead!
When Kraven the Hunter took his own life, it was an honest-to-god definitive death. He put a rifle in his mouth and pulled the trigger. The inside of his head ended up a few feet away from the rest of him. It was an on-panel, intentional, not-faked suicide.

Kraven is dead, and he's not coming back. He is the only hero/villian I can think of who you can say that about.

QUICK, IMPORTANT NOTE – I was speaking with some people from the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund (http://www.cbldf.org/) at WonderCon. The Gordon Lee (http://www.cbldf.org/pr/archives/000310.shtml)case is going back to trial in April. When all is said and done, the CBLDF (http://www.cbldf.org/) estimates that they’ll have spent over $100,000 in defending Gordon.

I urge everyone reading this to donate (http://cbldf.safeshopper.com/12/cat12.htm?479) to the CBLDF (http://www.cbldf.org/). They need your help. They’re a non-profit organization, and losing a hundred thousand dollars on one case has got to be hurting them. Between signing up for a membership, purchases and donations (http://cbldf.safeshopper.com/12/cat12.htm?479), they got around $100 from me at WonderCon. I wanted to do my part to help. Again, I urge you to do the same. (http://cbldf.safeshopper.com/12/cat12.htm?479)

CarlBowen

03-07-2007, 11:38 AM

I don't know/care if Steve Rogers is really dead. My comic shop doesn't even open for another 30 minutes, so I haven't even had the opportunity to read the comic if I were so inclined in the first place. BUT, I figure it probably wasn't an LMD getting shot. And I doubt it's a clone like Thor was. I mean, if it were, the sniper could have just as easily shot the thing in the head instead of in the stomach. I mean if the writer and editor know the sniper isn't shooting the real guy, there's no need to be equivocal about how lethal the gunshot is, right?

So it probably is Steve who gets shot. He might die, but he probably won't. If he is pronounced dead, he'll probably be back. Whatever, yeah?

--Carl.

PS: Seems odd, though, that a prisoner who stood at the forefront of such a divisive issue by acting as a terrorist (at least in the eyes of the so-easily-duped Marvel Universe American public) wouldn't be marched out of the courthouse in a bullet-proof vest and surrounded by more guards. I mean, notorious federal criminals in the real world get that sort of treatment, don't they?

RedRonin

03-07-2007, 11:38 AM

He didn't die DURING Civil War and then they kill him in his first post CW story :(
At least this one is written by a good writer.

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 11:41 AM

That´s lame.
Answering my question with a What If answer is just... lame.
What if's are not in the dreaded continuity.

So Bucky never actually died in an actual comic.

Actually in this case you are in correct. The What IF in question is in continuity. The only one brought in to continiity. Because this is where we learned The Patriot and Spirit of 76 took over for Cap. All stuff in continuity. So unless you are saying that is not in continity.

vbartilucci

03-07-2007, 11:42 AM

Hahahahahaha!!!! Dead?!? That's a good one. Dead in the Marvel dictionary must mean gone for an extended period of time....until they can "resurrect" him in their next over-hyped event. Now, loving Brubaker like I do, I know that the stories coming from this turn of events will be great but DEAD!!!! I don't think so.

I just looked up "dead" on the Marvel Universe's version of Wiktionary.

It rerouted me to "Sabbatical".

BlueBeetleIII

03-07-2007, 11:43 AM

[QUOTE=CarlBowenPS: Seems odd, though, that a prisoner who stood at the forefront of such a divisive issue by acting as a terrorist (at least in the eyes of the so-easily-duped Marvel Universe American public) wouldn't be marched out of the courthouse in a bullet-proof vest and surrounded by more guards. I mean, notorious federal criminals in the real world get that sort of treatment, don't they?[/QUOTE]

Oswald. It has to be some sort of set up either way. If Marvel wants to be "realistic" that is.

wvcomixfan

03-07-2007, 11:44 AM

o[mosaic]o[']ok, here's what we need:

a young cap- patriot
a bad-ass cap- usagent
an armored cap- jack flag in the old "robo-cap" armor
a cyborg cap- bucky

then, in 9 months or so, steve rogers returns, with a mullet!

:D :p
Oh heavens, no!! Couldn't abide the mullet on Superman; DEFINITELY not on Cap!

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 11:44 AM

I took the time to respond respectfully to your post and, despite your smugness, I'll do so one more time.

Comics are a serial form of entertainment that have been set up to provide the illusion of change. Peter Parker is a guilt-ridden guy who agonizes over every decision and at the end of the day goes his own way based on his sense of responsibility to his loved ones. When that changes, than he is no longer Peter Parker. The consistancy that I speak of is focused on the core of the characters. Change their clothes, their costumes, etc and I have no issue with it. Make them act in ways that are unrecognizable without a really good, in-depth explanation and it turns to .... People in the real world have moments of inconsistant behavior. It is usually short-term and the behavior goes back to what has been learned previously. It has been said numerous times throughout the years, that fiction must be more believable than reality. Peter's revelations, Cap's behavior throughout the war, etc were way out of character in my mind. The inconsistant behavior came out of nowhere at the beginning of CW.

It was consistant. He killed a single individual in an extreme circumstance and agonized over it the moment he did it and for some time afterwards. He didn't change as a character. It was within his character.

Man, since I AM smug, lemme introduce you to a revolutionary concept : punctuation.

Savvy?

Secondly, what makes you think that cap has not been agonizing over the decisions he´s had to make since CW began?

Have you been reading Marvel so far into the future that you just know for a fact that this is what will happen?

Oh, i forgot, you just dropped Marvel altogether.

Quote:

Peter Parker is a guilt-ridden guy who agonizes over every decision and at the end of the day goes his own way based on his sense of responsibility to his loved ones. When that changes, than he is no longer Peter Parker.

You mean just like that itsy-bitsy decision he made not to stop a guy that ended killing up his own uncle?
For shame, Petey!

Do you think he (and God, i know i am talking about a FICTIONAL character) sleeps well at night, knowing that what he thought was best for him, with, i might add his Aunt's and wife's support, in that moment now has endangered their lives even moreso?

If anything, this is classic Peter Parker, always with the best intentions, with the worst possible outcomes.

vbartilucci

03-07-2007, 11:45 AM

steve rogers is not dead, but he must let the world think that he is dead...
"Play that sad going away song from the end of The Incredible Hulk!"

Pling ping pling plinnnnggg...

Ricky222

03-07-2007, 11:46 AM

Marvel has really lost me with this Civil War stuff. I've been reading comics for over 20 years and I may be done for awhile. With Marvel at least. I love Bru, but I think I'll just still to DC until Marvel gets their head out of their ass.

caats19

03-07-2007, 11:51 AM

what if they had him sniped when he had his shield up to hit iron man? that'd be ok, or have that whole little panel/snipe at the very end of civil war instead of him in a jail cell. that woulda been perfect

Kane Romita

03-07-2007, 11:51 AM

Marvel = Infinite Event

thebeast415

03-07-2007, 11:51 AM

Well, Cap is dead so some body has to replace him for a while right.

My moneys on Hawkeye. Marvel said he would be coming back and personally I think this is a good way of doing it.

As for Ronin, its probably Falcon.

vbartilucci

03-07-2007, 11:52 AM

You kow what would be cool (but somwhat justifiable) is having PATRIOT (Isaiah Bradley grandson) to be CAPTAIN AMERICA for a while.

Now that would raise some eyebrows! :D

Hey, we were all trying to figure out who the four replacements were gonna be...

Jack Flag could be the Cyborg, too

T. C. Smith

03-07-2007, 11:53 AM

Sure would have been nice if I could have found all this out by reading the comic. Thanks Marvel. :rolleyes:

Jon Snow

03-07-2007, 11:53 AM

I was lucky enough to spend a few minutes talking with JM DeMatties over the weekend. We were discussing the fact that he killed a character, and the character has actually stayed dead!
When Kraven the Hunter took his own life, it was an honest-to-god definitive death. He put a rifle in his mouth and pulled the trigger. The inside of his head ended up a few feet away from the rest of him. It was an on-panel, intentional, not-faked suicide.

Kraven is dead, and he's not coming back. He is the only character I can think of who you can say that about.

QUICK, IMPORTANT NOTE – I was speaking with some people from the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund (http://www.cbldf.org/) at WonderCon. The Gordon Lee (http://www.cbldf.org/pr/archives/000310.shtml)case is going back to trial in April. When all is said and done, the CBLDF (http://www.cbldf.org/) estimates that they’ll have spent over $100,000 in defending Gordon.

I urge everyone reading this to donate (http://cbldf.safeshopper.com/12/cat12.htm?479) to the CBLDF (http://www.cbldf.org/). They need your help. They’re a non-profit organization, and losing a hundred thousand dollars on one case has got to be hurting them. Between signing up for a membership, purchases and donations (http://cbldf.safeshopper.com/12/cat12.htm?479), they got around $100 from me at WonderCon. I wanted to do my part to help. Again, I urge you to do the same. (http://cbldf.safeshopper.com/12/cat12.htm?479)

Captain Mar-Vell is still dead.
And so are Jean DeWolfe and Captain Stacy.

And i KNOW that Captain Marvel just came back, but he wasn't ressurected.