MattBrady
11-27-2002, 05:35 PM
As previously announced, Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale will be following their tradition in 2003 with another color-themed miniseries set in the early days of a Marvel hero's career. This time out, the hero is Hulk, and the color is Gray. Newsarama caught up with the writer to talk a little bit about the early plans for the series.
In regards to the "when" of Hulk: Gray, Loeb and Sale will return to the early days of the character as they have with Daredevil: Yellow and Spider-Man: Blue, and likewise in this case, Loeb has a pretty specific point in time selected. To explain the where, sit down for a little comics history 101 from Professor Loeb.
First off, while this may sound somewhat silly to some to point out, Hulk: Gray isn't about Joe Fixit, the most recent gray incarnation of the Hulk, who showed up during Peter David (and later Paul Jenkins') run with the character.
"We got a lot of email from people asking us why we made up the 'yellow' costume in Daredevil, "Loeb said. [Newsarama note: Daredevil wore the often forgotten yellow costume through the first six issues and then it was changed in issue #7.] "The Hulk started out gray, but was quickly changed to 'Green Genes' as Stan would say. This has nothing to do with the 'Joe Fixit' personality who emerged later. This is the Hulk at his beginnings."
"We're still in the very early stages of discussion, wrapping up Spidey: Blue, but right now our thinking is that the story will take place basically between Hulk #1 and #2 [1962] of the original series," Loeb said. "As longtime fans remember, the Hulk only lasted six issues before it was canceled, something unusual for Stan Lee and Marvel at that time. Ironically, less so now. Unlike Daredevil, who sort of floundered at first waiting for an artist, Wally Wood, to come along and new look, the red costume, the Hulk presented a basic problem of whether or not a book that essentially was about a villain could work.
"It was only later, when the Hulk was paired, in Tales to Astonish with The Sub-Mariner who had an equally ambiguous moral center, that the character caught on and finally was rewarded with his own book that started, oddly enough, with Issue #102, which continued the numbering of Tales to Astonish.
“I'm sure that bit of history was interesting to no one except me and Kurt Busiek, but it does provide a bit of 'when this took place,’" Loeb added with a laugh.
Technically, the "space" between issues #1 and #2 of The Incredible Hulk is wide open - issue #1 ended with Bruce Banner and Rick Jones flying back to America in a rocketship after being kidnapped and taken to the USSR by the Gargoyle, while issue #2 begins an unspecified amount of time later, with the police spotting the Hulk wandering on the outskirts of an unnamed town. At the time, the Hulk was still speaking in full sentences, and had a rather sinister air about him.
Loeb pins much of his affection for and curiosity with the character to the Hulk's earliest days of the Lee/Kirby issues, prior all the permutations that awaited him over the years, a purer Hulk in a way. "It's a classic tale of the misunderstood monster, much like Frankenstein, but what made it worse was that he had the destructive capability of an atomic bomb and the mind of a child," Loeb said. "Let me rephrase that, because the Hulk wasn't childlike - he just had a child's understanding of the morality of the world. When any creature's response to something is 'SMASH' it's got some pretty serious issues to work out.
"One approach to the character is to examine how he differs from his alter ego, Bruce Banner. But, the Hulk always was far more complex than just an 'id' on the loose. He had a distinct personality from Banner and hated Banner. He was, and to this day in some form still is, incredibly twisted. He saw Banner as his prison guard who kept him in a dark place. And Banner - at the beginning - really couldn't remember all of the things that the Hulk did. Stan and Jack had created something that was more than just Jekyll and Hyde and the duality of human nature. The Hulk had an agenda, as foggy as it could be, and that's where we begin. What did the Hulk want and why?"
Loeb and Sale's six issues (no, the irony of the series' length is not lost on the creators) will explore the days after the gamma bomb explosion, and feature threats that are more internal than external in nature. "We're not going to - at least as planned - involve anyone from the rogues gallery," Loeb said. "This will be more like Superman for All Seasons, in that the villainy comes from within, in the form of Banner's nightmares. Don't get me wrong, there'll be plenty of smashing and destruction and Thunderbolt Ross will be doing his best to make The Hulk's life a living hell, but Ross is in many ways, more in line with Luthor in Superman's early days. Ross isn't a man who can go toe-to-toe with our monster, but he does have the U.S. Army at his disposal and is more that willing to use it.
That said, we do have one guest-star - I guess that's the best way to put it - in mind who is very specific to that time period and I can't wait until Tim gets to draw that person. It's someone we haven't done before, so visually, it should be pretty delightful."
As can probably be figured from Loeb's comments above, in the pages of Hulk: Gray, the creators' penchant for colors in their titles will take on a figurative as well as literal meaning. "As we'll see, most of the characters in the tale, General Thunderbolt Ross, Glenn Talbot, Rick Jones and even Banner himself to a certain extent, lived in a black and white world," Loeb said. "In between those views of what is right and what is wrong could be construed as something 'gray.' And part of the key is Betty Ross who was challenged to see beyond her father's view of the Hulk as a thing of evil, beyond Banner's own fear of the Hulk as something that he felt incredibly guilty about, to see something that was in that 'gray.'
"Betty had more in common with Alicia Masters who loved the Thing even though Ben Grimm couldn't see the world in the same manner of a blind woman. One way or another, all of the 'color' books are about love, hopefully blended with both action and character. What makes Banner's story so poignant is that Betty understood it all - much better than anyone knew - and that's why she was willing to stay with this monster. She saw the men they both were. It's been explored in many ways - that's what happens when you have a character that's been around for as many years as the Hulk, but we want to look at the beginnings of that relationship. Those first days would set the tone for years to come."
Along with telling love stories starring the icons of the Marvel Universe, Loeb also feels that his and Sale's projects at Marvel serve a couple of other purposes. "The 'color' books are intended to be both stand alone stories and when collected together, will hopefully give the reader a sense of what Marvel was like at its beginnings," Loeb said. "They're primers, to a certain extent, in that you don't need to know much about a character's continuity, or make a large investment as with a monthly, in order to tell a complete story. The most flattering thing we hear, and we hear it a lot, is that comic book readers can take our books - either the single issues or the collections - and give them to their friends, girlfriends, parents and say 'Here. This is why I read comics.'
"Tim's artwork is spectacular and the stories, I hope, are fueled with emotion. Many people who don't read comics, or who only remember reading them as kids, only remember the 'biff, bam, boom.' But, when they saw the movie Spider-Man and saw the romance between Peter and MJ as being as much or more important than the fight with the Goblin or when they watch Smallville and they realize that the unrequited love affair between Clark and Lana is as much or more compelling than the Krypto-Villain, those of us who have been reading comics get to basically say Yes - that's what I've been telling you all along!'
"Comic book heroes and villains - at least the way that Tim and I remember them - were never two dimensional characters who did nothing but fight good and evil. They were men and women who had real problems that weren't made better their powers, they were actually made worse and on that level, these are very relatable stories.
“These characters that we love and debate about only resonate so loudly because they are the myths and legends of modern day. Makes you kind of wonder if Aristotle and Plato sat around and argued whether or not Apollo should have changed his costume or if Zeus was really dead or just faking it,” finished with a chuckle.
As with every project with Loeb, Sale will be bringing a special artistic approach to Hulk: Gray in regards to style and influences. "It's a way to make the artwork unique not only to the project himself, but to him," Loeb said. "Superman: for All Seasons doesn't look like Dark Victory or Daredevil: Yellow or Spider-Man: Blue, Loeb said. "So, before we start, there is a long and very detailed conversation between us as to how to approach any project. What that exactly is isn't a secret, but we're going to run some tests first to see how it looks. What he has in mind is very cool. So far the only artwork that we've made available is the sketch he did for a fan in Belgium who has been very generous to share it with the world (thanks, Peter!). Hopefully, what folks have gotten from that very simple drawing is the enormous power of the character. Make no mistake, the Hulk is a monster and that element will play a large part in Tim's choice of look for the book."
Of course, when speaking of interpretations of the Hulk, next spring's cinematic version isn't too far from Loeb's mind, but isn't affecting his story at all. "I'm very excited about the movie," Loeb said. "Having Ang Lee involved elevates it to a place where - whatever the film is about - it will be extraordinarily well made. Ang Lee has a gift and whenever a storyteller of that magnitude comes in touch with source material from comics we all benefit. In simplest terms, it adds an air of respect to the comic book industry, something we all could learn a thing or three about.
"It's very easy to see the negative in anything -- but when we look around us, the success of Spider-Man this summer and the explosion of Smallville on television really is very intoxicating to those of us who believe in this artform. I mean, dammit, for the first time in a very long time, working in comics is sexy. I know a lot of fans who, for the first time, are able to talk about comics with their friends without being thought of as reading 'children's literature' - more appropriately 'Comics are for kids' - because they know about these films and television series. Comics are cool - I've always thought so, but it helps when someone other than Joe Quesada agrees with you.
"But no, I don't think that the movie will affect the series since I haven't got the slightest idea what the movie is about and I'm writing the series now. But, I'll assume the movie will have an origin story of some sort and a love story that involves Jennifer Connelly. And if it doesn't have a love story with Jennifer Connelly, I'll be happy to play that part."
Currently, Hulk: Gray is slated to begin in June of 2003, with lettering and design by Hip Flask Richard Starkings. A colorist has yet to be named.
In regards to the "when" of Hulk: Gray, Loeb and Sale will return to the early days of the character as they have with Daredevil: Yellow and Spider-Man: Blue, and likewise in this case, Loeb has a pretty specific point in time selected. To explain the where, sit down for a little comics history 101 from Professor Loeb.
First off, while this may sound somewhat silly to some to point out, Hulk: Gray isn't about Joe Fixit, the most recent gray incarnation of the Hulk, who showed up during Peter David (and later Paul Jenkins') run with the character.
"We got a lot of email from people asking us why we made up the 'yellow' costume in Daredevil, "Loeb said. [Newsarama note: Daredevil wore the often forgotten yellow costume through the first six issues and then it was changed in issue #7.] "The Hulk started out gray, but was quickly changed to 'Green Genes' as Stan would say. This has nothing to do with the 'Joe Fixit' personality who emerged later. This is the Hulk at his beginnings."
"We're still in the very early stages of discussion, wrapping up Spidey: Blue, but right now our thinking is that the story will take place basically between Hulk #1 and #2 [1962] of the original series," Loeb said. "As longtime fans remember, the Hulk only lasted six issues before it was canceled, something unusual for Stan Lee and Marvel at that time. Ironically, less so now. Unlike Daredevil, who sort of floundered at first waiting for an artist, Wally Wood, to come along and new look, the red costume, the Hulk presented a basic problem of whether or not a book that essentially was about a villain could work.
"It was only later, when the Hulk was paired, in Tales to Astonish with The Sub-Mariner who had an equally ambiguous moral center, that the character caught on and finally was rewarded with his own book that started, oddly enough, with Issue #102, which continued the numbering of Tales to Astonish.
“I'm sure that bit of history was interesting to no one except me and Kurt Busiek, but it does provide a bit of 'when this took place,’" Loeb added with a laugh.
Technically, the "space" between issues #1 and #2 of The Incredible Hulk is wide open - issue #1 ended with Bruce Banner and Rick Jones flying back to America in a rocketship after being kidnapped and taken to the USSR by the Gargoyle, while issue #2 begins an unspecified amount of time later, with the police spotting the Hulk wandering on the outskirts of an unnamed town. At the time, the Hulk was still speaking in full sentences, and had a rather sinister air about him.
Loeb pins much of his affection for and curiosity with the character to the Hulk's earliest days of the Lee/Kirby issues, prior all the permutations that awaited him over the years, a purer Hulk in a way. "It's a classic tale of the misunderstood monster, much like Frankenstein, but what made it worse was that he had the destructive capability of an atomic bomb and the mind of a child," Loeb said. "Let me rephrase that, because the Hulk wasn't childlike - he just had a child's understanding of the morality of the world. When any creature's response to something is 'SMASH' it's got some pretty serious issues to work out.
"One approach to the character is to examine how he differs from his alter ego, Bruce Banner. But, the Hulk always was far more complex than just an 'id' on the loose. He had a distinct personality from Banner and hated Banner. He was, and to this day in some form still is, incredibly twisted. He saw Banner as his prison guard who kept him in a dark place. And Banner - at the beginning - really couldn't remember all of the things that the Hulk did. Stan and Jack had created something that was more than just Jekyll and Hyde and the duality of human nature. The Hulk had an agenda, as foggy as it could be, and that's where we begin. What did the Hulk want and why?"
Loeb and Sale's six issues (no, the irony of the series' length is not lost on the creators) will explore the days after the gamma bomb explosion, and feature threats that are more internal than external in nature. "We're not going to - at least as planned - involve anyone from the rogues gallery," Loeb said. "This will be more like Superman for All Seasons, in that the villainy comes from within, in the form of Banner's nightmares. Don't get me wrong, there'll be plenty of smashing and destruction and Thunderbolt Ross will be doing his best to make The Hulk's life a living hell, but Ross is in many ways, more in line with Luthor in Superman's early days. Ross isn't a man who can go toe-to-toe with our monster, but he does have the U.S. Army at his disposal and is more that willing to use it.
That said, we do have one guest-star - I guess that's the best way to put it - in mind who is very specific to that time period and I can't wait until Tim gets to draw that person. It's someone we haven't done before, so visually, it should be pretty delightful."
As can probably be figured from Loeb's comments above, in the pages of Hulk: Gray, the creators' penchant for colors in their titles will take on a figurative as well as literal meaning. "As we'll see, most of the characters in the tale, General Thunderbolt Ross, Glenn Talbot, Rick Jones and even Banner himself to a certain extent, lived in a black and white world," Loeb said. "In between those views of what is right and what is wrong could be construed as something 'gray.' And part of the key is Betty Ross who was challenged to see beyond her father's view of the Hulk as a thing of evil, beyond Banner's own fear of the Hulk as something that he felt incredibly guilty about, to see something that was in that 'gray.'
"Betty had more in common with Alicia Masters who loved the Thing even though Ben Grimm couldn't see the world in the same manner of a blind woman. One way or another, all of the 'color' books are about love, hopefully blended with both action and character. What makes Banner's story so poignant is that Betty understood it all - much better than anyone knew - and that's why she was willing to stay with this monster. She saw the men they both were. It's been explored in many ways - that's what happens when you have a character that's been around for as many years as the Hulk, but we want to look at the beginnings of that relationship. Those first days would set the tone for years to come."
Along with telling love stories starring the icons of the Marvel Universe, Loeb also feels that his and Sale's projects at Marvel serve a couple of other purposes. "The 'color' books are intended to be both stand alone stories and when collected together, will hopefully give the reader a sense of what Marvel was like at its beginnings," Loeb said. "They're primers, to a certain extent, in that you don't need to know much about a character's continuity, or make a large investment as with a monthly, in order to tell a complete story. The most flattering thing we hear, and we hear it a lot, is that comic book readers can take our books - either the single issues or the collections - and give them to their friends, girlfriends, parents and say 'Here. This is why I read comics.'
"Tim's artwork is spectacular and the stories, I hope, are fueled with emotion. Many people who don't read comics, or who only remember reading them as kids, only remember the 'biff, bam, boom.' But, when they saw the movie Spider-Man and saw the romance between Peter and MJ as being as much or more important than the fight with the Goblin or when they watch Smallville and they realize that the unrequited love affair between Clark and Lana is as much or more compelling than the Krypto-Villain, those of us who have been reading comics get to basically say Yes - that's what I've been telling you all along!'
"Comic book heroes and villains - at least the way that Tim and I remember them - were never two dimensional characters who did nothing but fight good and evil. They were men and women who had real problems that weren't made better their powers, they were actually made worse and on that level, these are very relatable stories.
“These characters that we love and debate about only resonate so loudly because they are the myths and legends of modern day. Makes you kind of wonder if Aristotle and Plato sat around and argued whether or not Apollo should have changed his costume or if Zeus was really dead or just faking it,” finished with a chuckle.
As with every project with Loeb, Sale will be bringing a special artistic approach to Hulk: Gray in regards to style and influences. "It's a way to make the artwork unique not only to the project himself, but to him," Loeb said. "Superman: for All Seasons doesn't look like Dark Victory or Daredevil: Yellow or Spider-Man: Blue, Loeb said. "So, before we start, there is a long and very detailed conversation between us as to how to approach any project. What that exactly is isn't a secret, but we're going to run some tests first to see how it looks. What he has in mind is very cool. So far the only artwork that we've made available is the sketch he did for a fan in Belgium who has been very generous to share it with the world (thanks, Peter!). Hopefully, what folks have gotten from that very simple drawing is the enormous power of the character. Make no mistake, the Hulk is a monster and that element will play a large part in Tim's choice of look for the book."
Of course, when speaking of interpretations of the Hulk, next spring's cinematic version isn't too far from Loeb's mind, but isn't affecting his story at all. "I'm very excited about the movie," Loeb said. "Having Ang Lee involved elevates it to a place where - whatever the film is about - it will be extraordinarily well made. Ang Lee has a gift and whenever a storyteller of that magnitude comes in touch with source material from comics we all benefit. In simplest terms, it adds an air of respect to the comic book industry, something we all could learn a thing or three about.
"It's very easy to see the negative in anything -- but when we look around us, the success of Spider-Man this summer and the explosion of Smallville on television really is very intoxicating to those of us who believe in this artform. I mean, dammit, for the first time in a very long time, working in comics is sexy. I know a lot of fans who, for the first time, are able to talk about comics with their friends without being thought of as reading 'children's literature' - more appropriately 'Comics are for kids' - because they know about these films and television series. Comics are cool - I've always thought so, but it helps when someone other than Joe Quesada agrees with you.
"But no, I don't think that the movie will affect the series since I haven't got the slightest idea what the movie is about and I'm writing the series now. But, I'll assume the movie will have an origin story of some sort and a love story that involves Jennifer Connelly. And if it doesn't have a love story with Jennifer Connelly, I'll be happy to play that part."
Currently, Hulk: Gray is slated to begin in June of 2003, with lettering and design by Hip Flask Richard Starkings. A colorist has yet to be named.