52 Week 42***SPOILERS*** Plus from Earth C, Civil Warren #7

[MazingMan728]

Cover to week 42 is of Doctor Fate with tentacles coming out of his chest.

The ticker on the bottom of the cover reads “…”Woman without a Face…Dibny beats the Devil…The Fate of Fate…”


There is of Green Arrow by Mark Waid and Scott McDaniel.

Pencils are by Derrick Robertson.

Trigger Effect

Week 42, Day 2
Nanda Parbat: While still in the Ice Cave, Renee lights a candle and opens her eye to her reflection in all the facets on the wall’s of the cave, however the face is blank.

Week 42, Day 3
Salem, Massachusetts: Inside the Kent’s sanctuary, the Helmet of Fate instructs Ralph that now is the time and that he has taught Ralph all he can. Ralph, now clean shaven, takes another drink from his flask and puts on the Helmet. Reaching into his waist, Ralph takes out the gun from the Anselmo Case, puts it to his head and fires. The Helmet flies off of Ralph’s head like fabric and hit’s the wall of the sanctuary which reveals itself to be Felix Faust while also dropping Ralph’s wedding ring at the same time. Ralph reveals that he knew it was Faust all along and that it was Faust behind the Kryptonian Reselection ceremony which made the wicker doll move and it was Faust watching Ralph at the sewer entrance. Faust starts running away from Ralph through the halls of the sanctuary while Ralph walks after him telling Faust how he knew who it was. Upon reaching a trunk, Faust reaches in and pulls out a scepter to use against Ralph. Ralph stretches out of the way revealing that he has been drinking gingold the entire time and that the Anselmo gun is not a hand gun but a wishing gun. The gun is a “souvenir from a case. Altonio Anselmo, magician gangster. Claimed to have rules the Boston Underworld with enchanted firearms. Load a bullet…make a wish…and fire.” Faust then confesses that it was all him and that the story he told Ralph about Neron was true and that he had planned on trading Ralph’s soul for his since Ralph’s soul is pure and strong. Neron then appears to claim Faust’s soul but Ralph tells him that Faust is his. Neron asks Ralph if he wants a trade, Faust for Sue but Ralph said he knows that Neron wouldn’t do that so he changed his wish. Ralph then points the gun at Neron, to which Neron quickly grabs the gun taking one of Ralph’s fingers with it.
Neron: Insolent fool. You can’t wish me away with this trinket.
Ralph: I’ve put up with this façade for weeks. I’ve been through Hell and back to get you. YOU’RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!
Neron: And you think you can stop me?
Ralph: I don’t need a gun to defeat you.
Neron: Neither do I.
Ralph: Take your best shot
Neron: I believe this is yours.
***Neron flings Ralph’s wedding ring at through Ralph’s chest.***
Neron: Our transaction is complete. In return for Faust I give you back your ring.
Ralph: heh…it’s not over yet, you bastard…I got you…
***And Ralph dies with a big puddle of blood around him.***
Faust: What did he mean by that? What just happened? If he wished to die…
Neron: That was not his wish. It was a trick. He tricked me! Let us leave this…GAAAA The Spell of Binding is still in force. Nothing can be removed from these walls without the permission of the one who cast the spell. With Dibny dead, we are trapped here. DAMN, his soul! He knew. He knew all along! And now you will suffer for it. You will suffer for eternity.


Week 42, Day 7
Elysium Cemetery: Fire gets Ralph’s answering machine when she tries to contact him on her cell phone. Bea continues to walk to Sue’s grave where she notices a ring on top of the grave stone. Upon picking the ring up, she realizes that it is Ralph’s wedding ring and begins to cry.

Next in 52: Captain Marvel Jr. with Osiris in the Rock of Eternity, Animal Man and his 2 Alien buddies, The Marvel Family holding back Black Adam.
The cover has Buddy with his arms stretched out and a picture of his family.


And now a special Spoiler from my Earth C counterpart, MazingMut728, on one of their top selling and also delayed series Civil Warren. I can not confirm nor deny that these are what happens on this Earth, but I can say that the similarities are uncanny and for you to decide.

Previously on Earth C: Home to Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew…
Due to the accidental and untimely slaughter of wee ones in the rabbit warrens at Abraham Linkidd Elementary School in Springfield Cow-Necticut, Pig-Iron helped push through the Vegetarian Act. This new act was not favored by all and soon the Anti-Vegetarian forces took up actions lead by Yankee Poodle. This lead to friends against friends, and family members against family members which split up such super-hero teams as the Furtastic Four and the Newt Avengers. And while the fighting at times became fierce the greatest loss was the death of Bill Forester aka Goatliath at the hands of a dolly* version of the Thunder Dog created by Pig Iron and Rubberduck. When last we saw, both sides of the Vegetarian Act as they begin battle in Area 52 of the Not-So-Positive Zone.

We now continue with Civil Warren #7
As the fight continues in the Not-So-Positive Zone between friend and foe, Digger advises her team mate Croak that he is going to have to teleport everyone out. Upon teleporting everyone finds themselves falling from the sky just outside of the Barkster Building in Gnu York. Team mates help team mates safely to the ground as the fighting continues. Reinforcements are then joined for both side, The Vegetarian side from Door, (the dolly version of the Thunder Dog) and Floundor and his Amphibians. The battle becomes more fierce with many are hurt, including Rubberduck who while trying to save his wife, Sue Swan, he is shot by Tuskmaster and Hareculse takes out Door. ***Oh poor poor Tuskmaster, you should know better than to upset Sue…and you know it from the look in your eyes*** Pig-Iron is taken down by Yankee Poodle who is about to finish the fight when she is grabbed by a number of citizens of Gnu York. Poodle takes notice of the damage that their fight has caused and orders both sides to stand down. Poodle then removes her mask, drops it on the ground, and allows herself to be arrested and taken away with the mask retrieved by the Punish-hare. The 50 State Initiative goes into place with a number of holdouts from Yankee Poodles team still “underground”. Sue Swam returns to her husband Rubberduck and Peter Porkchops, Pig-Iron, is given the position of Director of S.H.E.D.


*Dolly is the name of the first clone sheep, hence from now on all clones on Earth C will be referred to as dolly in her honor.

[*RW*]

Sounds like poor Ralphs story ends on a bit of a downer. Hope there is more to it than this...

[nietoperz]

Ralph?

Man, that makes me very sad.

[The Phazer]

Sounds very sad, but Ralph seems to go out with a bang.

CW #7 sounds staggeringly dull, unfortunately.

Phazer

[Uchiha_Prodigy]

My eyes got all watery reading the spoilers.

[nietoperz]

If that's really the ending to CW then Marvel really ought to be ashamed of itself. That sounds worse than I imagined it would be.

[Layters]

Hmm so who is the big death in Civil War? Reed?

Not a good week for bendy people.

[MazingMan728]

If that's really the ending to CW then Marvel really ought to be ashamed of itself. That sounds worse than I imagined it would be.

Kind of anti-climatic to what was being built up. Still ejoyable but not how I thought it would have ended. I actually don't know how I thought it would end but that wasn't it.

[MazingMan728]

Hmm so who is the big death in Civil War? Reed?

Not a good week for bendy people.

Rubber duck is fine and back with Sue. No real deaths in this issue, at least nothing up front that you can tell. Can machine/clones die??? Maybe that's it but nothing I would think you can base Fallen Son on.

Sorry but I told someone on another board I would not do Civil War Spoilers...I hope that Civil Warren is a good enough loophole.

[KyleCowstar]

It sucks that Ralph had to die. :(

[nietoperz]

Back to 52: I'm kind of heartbroken about Ralph.

[Layters]

So thats genuine spoilers?

Oh well. This is going to kick off big time wed. Especially with all the mentions of a big death.

Wonder what Fallen Son is then? They did say it wasnt actual title though. Maybe its somethign that happens in Captain America or Civil War Frontline.

I cant believe you have to read frontline to find out who was behind all this.

[seethruhero]

If that is the ending to Civil War, that is pretty ridiculous.


The whole series could have been a freakin one shot.

[ArkhamAsylum]

Mazingman,

Do you have the spoilers for ASM? Who gets shot ? Aunt May or MJ ? Does either of them die ?

thanks for the rest of the info.

[Tymminator]

Mar-vell didn't appear?

[AgentSaint]

So thats genuine spoilers?

Oh well. This is going to kick off big time wed. Especially with all the mentions of a big death.

Wonder what Fallen Son is then? They did say it wasnt actual title though. Maybe its somethign that happens in Captain America or Civil War Frontline.

I cant believe you have to read frontline to find out who was behind all this.
even in Sensational this week they tell Reed Richards when he is on the roof of a hospital "the last time i saw you was when your friend died"

[*RW*]

Yeah it sucks that Ralph dies, but hasn't there been at least one more resurrection hinted at in the previews? So I guess either Ralph or The Question are going to be given another chance (unless someone else dies between now and then...)

[Moriarty]

My one concern about the end of the Ralph's subplot is in regards to Faust (So, it was that sunuvab**** all along). If Faust is trapped for all eternity with Neron, then how in the heck can show up OYL in "The Tornado's Path"?.

But, as there are still 10 issues left in the series, I guess anything could happen.

[MazingMan728]

Yeah it sucks that Ralph dies, but hasn't there been at least one more resurrection hinted at in the previews? So I guess either Ralph or The Question are going to be given another chance (unless someone else dies between now and then...)

I'll go for Ralph, ONLY because Neron and Faust need him to get out and since Faust appears in JLoA...

[mdg1]

Riddle me this....

If Ralph is dead, and Neron/Faust can't leave the Tower...

How'd his ring get on her tombstone?

[Clem]

CW7 sounds like it doesnt make much sense.

Cap gives himself up because he'd prefer everyone to live in a big brother dictatorship, than incur the slightest bit of damage? Thats retarded.

And the sheer fact that all his buddies are gonna keep fighting anyway makes it even more retarded.

If the foreseeable future of the Marvel Universe is just Iron Prick lording it over everyone, with Cap in jail, i'm pretty much gonna drop everything Marvel and officially defect to DC.

[*RW*]

How'd his ring get on her tombstone?


Skeets? :D

[themanyouhat]

hey mazingman,

was CW 7 a regular length issue?

[LouieAussie]

Riddle me this....

If Ralph is dead, and Neron/Faust can't leave the Tower...

How'd his ring get on her tombstone?


real life spirits sometimes move things other places so its happened a lot.

to me this means Ralph is finally with Sue.

Man i am soo sad.. Hope Ralph returns soon somehow

[mdg1]

Could be... but it could also be his way of finally saying goodbye.

[roshambo]

NOOOOOOOOOO! RAAAAAAALPH!
i don't think it's over for him yet, but looks like that's it for his 52 story...all the mysticism always gives an out. at least he's with Sue for now. As Batman said, OYL Ralph is "unavailable".
but the ish sounds great...can't wait 'til wednesday.
thanks, mazingman!

[BillReed]

No.

They.

____ing.

DIDN'T.

[*RW*]

How does that tie into the whole "he had the answer at the beginning" stuff?

[roshambo]

How does that tie into the whole "he had the answer at the beginning" stuff?

yeah, what was he wishing for before firing the gun in issue one?
or does it mean that he was wishing to die in ish one, and ended up having to wish for that again now to trap the baddies?

[AgentSaint]

yeah, what was he wishing for before firing the gun in issue one?
or does it mean that he was wishing to die in ish one, and ended up having to wish for that again now to trap the baddies?
I think thats it.
I mean he had a gun to his head in issue one and again in issue 42.
and they have said his story wraps this week.
I am so excited about animal man next week though. and this is a character that I coulda given 2 cr@ps about in issue 1.

[MazingMan728]

CW7 sounds like it doesnt make much sense.

Cap gives himself up because he'd prefer everyone to live in a big brother dictatorship, than incur the slightest bit of damage? Thats retarded.

And the sheer fact that all his buddies are gonna keep fighting anyway makes it even more retarded.

If the foreseeable future of the Marvel Universe is just Iron Prick lording it over everyone, with Cap in jail, i'm pretty much gonna drop everything Marvel and officially defect to DC.

Cap feels that they are now just fighting and not fighting for the people and their rights after he noticed a good portion of Manhatten had been destroyed from their fighting.

[MazingMan728]

hey mazingman,

was CW 7 a regular length issue?

Yes it was. And while the Spoilers may make it sound a bit dull as there was a lot of fighting and I didn't want to give too much away, I still enjoyed it.

[themanyouhat]

Yes it was. And while the Spoilers may make it sound a bit dull as there was a lot of fighting and I didn't want to give too much away, I still enjoyed it.

huh, i coulda swore somewhere they said it would be extra-length.

oh well. thanks.

[AgentSaint]

huh, i coulda swore somewhere they said it would be extra-length.

oh well. thanks.
the book would have come out in about 2012 if they had more pages.

[Evil Twin]

I suppose "Let's Make a Deal" is still possible. Ralph and Sue get resurrected, Faust and Neron agree not to bother them again and get let free.

[vbartilucci]

OK, let me start with applause on that hilarious Civil Warren bit. I for one would MUCH rather read that.

Now I gotta start yelling.

Go get a copy of Pulp Fiction, and play the scene where Bruce Willis' wife admits she forgot his watch. Again and again.

right, movin on.

One simple fact - Felix Faust is free.

There are a few possibilities.

1) Felix got out of the tower (possibly tricking Neron in the process) which would still render Ralph's sacrifice at least 50% pointless. Which is too much for me.

And you KNOW someone is going to enter the Tower in the new Fate book. And either they'll have to address that Neron's trapped there (and probably let him out) or they'll ignore it - which will render Ralph's act 100% pointless. Which will piss me off to NO end.

2) That's not Felix Faust. Which would be just dumb. More likely it would be a case that the right people didn't tell Meltzer that Faust wasn't available, and now they'll have to come up with some crazy-ass thing to explain it.

3) Neron is forced to bring Ralph back in exchange for his escape. But I can't imagine Ralph would make a deal that would set Neron free. But I could see a double cross that would get Ralph and Felix out. Whether or not Sue gets to come back, I don't know.

If indeed the death sticks (and I ain't sure of that either) there is exactly one scenario that would render it acceptable:

We get a full page shot of a ghostly Ralph, hugging an equally ghostly Sue, telling someone (Bea maybe) that it's okay, he did some good and he got what he wanted. And then Neron is NEVER used EVER AGAIN. Because as soon as someone decides they have to use Neron, I want Ralph back IMMEDIATELY.

It is going to be a VERY interesting NYCC. I will be seeing Didio face to face. I may place all my thoughts and emotions on paper beforehand, much like psychologists tell you to do when faced with a lot of feelings. Except I will actually hand that letter to him.

If I do, I'll post it here as well.

After writing this, I just realized we've already seen Neron OYL in Teen Titans...Damn. So the death is either 100% pointless, or he's coming back.

[AgentSaint]

OK, let me start with applause on that hilarious Civil Warren bit. I for one would MUCH rather read that.

Now I gotta start yelling.

Go get a copy of Pulp Fiction, and play the scene where Bruce Willis' wife admits she forgot his watch. Again and again.

right, movin on.

One simple fact - Felix Faust is free.

There are a few possibilities.

1) Felix got out of the tower (possibly tricking Neron in the process) which would still render Ralph's sacrifice at least 50% pointless. Which is too much for me.

And you KNOW someone is going to enter the Tower in the new Fate book. And either they'll have to address that Neron's trapped there (and probably let him out) or they'll ignore it - which will render Ralph's act 100% pointless. Which will piss me off to NO end.

2) That's not Felix Faust. Which would be just dumb. More likely it would be a case that the right people didn't tell Meltzer that Faust wasn't available, and now they'll have to come up with some crazy-ass thing to explain it.

3) Neron is forced to bring Ralph back in exchange for his escape. But I can't imagine Ralph would make a deal that would set Neron free. But I could see a double cross that would get Ralph and Felix out. Whether or not Sue gets to come back, I don't know.

If indeed the death sticks (and I ain't sure of that either) there is exactly one scenario that would render it acceptable:

We get a full page shot of a ghostly Ralph, hugging an equally ghostly Sue, telling someone (Bea maybe) that it's okay, he did some good and he got what he wanted. And then Neron is NEVER used EVER AGAIN. Because as soon as someone decides they have to use Neron, I want Ralph back IMMEDIATELY.

It is going to be a VERY interesting NYCC. I will be seeing Didio face to face. I may place all my thoughts and emotions on paper beforehand, much like psychologists tell you to do when faced with a lot of feelings. Except I will actually hand that letter to him.

If I do, I'll post it here as well.

After writing this, I just realized we've already seen Neron OYL in Teen Titans...Damn. So the death is either 100% pointless, or he's coming back.
The neron in TT was pre oyl.

[*RW*]

But Neron OYL was just a flashback to when Kid Devil saw him, which occurred alongside 52, didn't it?

[Tombosephus]

I suppose "Let's Make a Deal" is still possible. Ralph and Sue get resurrected, Faust and Neron agree not to bother them again and get let free.

I bet this is right, it's probably going to turn out to be a part of Ralph's plan all along. At least I hope so!

[GSHAG]

2) That's not Felix Faust. Which would be just dumb. More likely it would be a case that the right people didn't tell Meltzer that Faust wasn't available, and now they'll have to come up with some crazy-ass thing to explain it.



the thing i cant get over about all of that is that faust has like a complete throwaway part in issue 1 of JLA. he was/has not been used in 5 issues since then, while other villians (from this villan clusterfvck that is the current JLA) have been seen in subsiquent ish's since 1. i got a feeling that meltzer just plain didnt know he couldnt use him and dumped him after ish 1.


After writing this, I just realized we've already seen Neron OYL in Teen Titans...Damn. So the death is either 100% pointless, or he's coming back.

now this defiently is fishy considering Geoffy Johns works on both books. he is much better than that. however there may be some cop out explaination considering eddie tried out for the titans in week 32, thats plenty of time for him to go to hell and back and most of TT42 is told in flashbacks. and yes im well aware about the last panel in TT42 and eddie lamenting in TT43, maybe he just doesnt know neron is trapped...

as for ralphs death being worthless, i got a gut feeling there is more to be told about his story. these is no way DC would just sh!t on a fanfavorite such as him. i think the internet and NYC con fans should keep their guns in their holsters for the time being....

but thats asking for a friggin miracle:rolleyes:

[vbartilucci]

But Neron OYL was just a flashback to when Kid Devil saw him, which occurred alongside 52, didn't it?
'Fraid not - that last page was after the flashback. It featured Rose and Cyborg (who was out of commission tillOYL), and then showed Neron viewing the scene.

So Neron is free, and Ralph did NOTHING.

Or one of two other scenarios:

1) Ralph allowed Neron free in exchage for something, be that his (and Sue's) life back, or something else. Which would be more out of character than anything, and would almost make me more upset than having him be dead.

2) Neron is still trapped, which probably means Kid Devil has nothing to fear since he's imprisoned and wouldn't be able to collect the soul, so THAT story's invalid.

Nope, this one's gonna need some real serious backpedaling to make it work. And that's just embarassing, considering Johns was one of the people involved in 52, and should have known about the events.

Damn. I was really hoping Ralph's story was going to mean something, but it's rendered moot before it even ends.

[Justin M. Campbell]

but thats asking for a friggin miracle:rolleyes:

Your question may contain its answer.

[AgentSaint]

'Fraid not - that last page was after the flashback. It featured Rose and Cyborg (who was out of commission tillOYL), and then showed Neron viewing the scene.

So Neron is free, and Ralph did NOTHING.

Or one of two other scenarios:

1) Ralph allowed Neron free in exchage for something, be that his (and Sue's) life back, or something else. Which would be more out of character than anything, and would almost make me more upset than having him be dead.

2) Neron is still trapped, which probably means Kid Devil has nothing to fear since he's imprisoned and wouldn't be able to collect the soul, so THAT story's invalid.

Nope, this one's gonna need some real serious backpedaling to make it work. And that's just embarassing, considering Johns was one of the people involved in 52, and should have known about the events.

Damn. I was really hoping Ralph's story was going to mean something, but it's rendered moot before it even ends.
Jesus man come off the ledge here, you havent even read the book yet.
This reminds me so much of all the venom after booster died and then again after daniel was thrown forward in time.

[vbartilucci]

as for ralphs death being worthless, i got a gut feeling there is more to be told about his story. these is no way DC would just sh!t on a fanfavorite such as him.
Um, hello?
Ted?
Nightwing (had not Wolfman gotten him a reprieve)?
Whoever it is that's dying in issue 1 (51, whatever) in Countdown?

Alas, DC is all too willing to kill people just to create, bracket or exacerbate an event. (I know, Marvel's just as willing, but I'm complaining about DC now, don't confuse me)


[QUOTE=GSHAG]
i think the internet and NYC con fans should keep their guns in their holsters for the time being....

but thats asking for a friggin miracle


I'm handing Dan three things at the con:

-The open letter I'm drafting (I've finally come to terms with why Ralph and Sue has hit me so personally and I'll discuss it soon)
-My receipt for Shazam and the Monster Society of Evil
-My copies of Reboot for him to sign. (I'm ashamed to admit I never made the connection)

So odds are I'm not giving them to him in that order.

[GSHAG]

Um, hello?
Ted?
Nightwing (had not Wolfman gotten him a reprieve)?
Whoever it is that's dying in issue 1 (51, whatever) in Countdown?

Alas, DC is all too willing to kill people just to create, bracket or exacerbate an event. (I know, Marvel's just as willing, but I'm complaining about DC now, don't confuse me)

ok lemme reword my previous comments. of course DC is going to sh!t on characters, fan favorites in particular. but unlike marvel who seems to just diareah over some of them (then gives them a hosedown and sends them back to use), DC at least leaves neat tightly wound coils on theirs. reguardless of killing ted or (a eariler example) donna troy, the deaths send off ripples that affect the entire DCU. beside from lilith(see: aforementioned death of donna troy) and the slew of pointless deaths in IC, most deaths have some kind of impact. hell, even judomasters death in IC is going to be covered in checkmate



I'm handing Dan three things at the con:

-The open letter I'm drafting (I've finally come to terms with why Ralph and Sue has hit me so personally and I'll discuss it soon)
-My receipt for Shazam and the Monster Society of Evil
-My copies of Reboot for him to sign. (I'm ashamed to admit I never made the connection)

So odds are I'm not giving them to him in that order.

just plain quoted for hilarity.


im not tryin to cause waves here, i just think cooler heads (and spending more $ on related books down the road) prevail:D :rolleyes:

[AgentSaint]

im not tryin to cause waves here, i just think cooler heads (and spending more $ on related books down the road) prevail:D :rolleyes:
I agree or like DD has said many times, if you dont like something how it is written or what is done Drop the book.

[chap22]

i refuse to believe Ralph's dead for these reasons:

1) Neron has been seen OYL in TT

2) Faust has been seen OYL in JLA AND Birds of Prey

3) there's a ring on Sue's tombstone

4) Mark Waid is writing this

Ralph ain't dead folks. 52 has been too damn good for them to crap on Ralph like that and have this big meaningful piece of detective work/sacrifice be for nothing immediately after he makes it. and yes i know Didio & Co. have screwed over Flash and Nightwing and Wonder Woman, etc etc., but 52 has been superb. and even the deaths so far have been misdirection (Booster, Buddy) or seen from a mile away with a successor on hand (Question). they are NOT killing Ralph -- if nothing else, i can't believe Waid would allow it.

[Tendrin]

I really want to thank 52 for managing to completely kill my interest in Renee Montoya by hamhanding her into the new Question, a character that really didn't need this kind of treatment in the first place if you ask me.

[Kid Kamikaze]

Wait a sec. They said that only ONE of the main characters was going to die in this series. If that remains the case, then who's not gonna die: The Question or Ralph.

Most likely, it's Ralph. Can't wait for this swerve.

[Tendrin]

Honestly, I doubt it'll be the question, though I do wonder about Rucka's answer to the 'Does Vic have to die for Renee to be the new question?' line he was asked, and he specifically said no. But then, they've been lying a -lot- about things, since people specifically asked if Ralph was still on the sauce or on gingold, so really, the writers have extremely little credibility when it comes to basing things off theri interviews anyways. It's why they strike me as so pointless sometimes. :)

Still not interested in Renee as the Question in the slightest. Everything that interested me about her character and her perspective is, and will be, gone. I'll be glad when Ralph comes back much like I was glad when Booster came back. Honestly, all these deaths are just annoying.

[AgentSaint]

Honestly, I doubt it'll be the question, though I do wonder about Rucka's answer to the 'Does Vic have to die for Renee to be the new question?' line he was asked, and he specifically said no. But then, they've been lying a -lot- about things, since people specifically asked if Ralph was still on the sauce or on gingold, so really, the writers have extremely little credibility when it comes to basing things off theri interviews anyways. It's why they strike me as so pointless sometimes. :)

Still not interested in Renee as the Question in the slightest. Everything that interested me about her character and her perspective is, and will be, gone. I'll be glad when Ralph comes back much like I was glad when Booster came back. Honestly, all these deaths are just annoying.
I really do hope that Ralph Returns too. Again this is a character much like animal man that in the beginning I could care less about but much like animal man a character that if a new ongoing started with right now I would buy in a heart beat.

[Tendrin]

Yeah, that's problematic. DC has been very good at making you care about their characters. This is a good thing. Unfortunately, once they've done that, they really don't know what to do with them, it seems. And if they know it will provoke a reaction in the fans, they'll be more than happy to cavalierly off them and replace them so they can do the whole 'legacy hero' thing which is, by this point, way overdone.

Killing Vic is a good example of this as well as Ted Kord, and I suspect Booster might have been too. If fans hadn't been quite so vocal about him and his mischaracterization before death, I -really- don't think he'd have turned out to be Supernova, but that's an unprovable speculation on my part. Honestly, DiDio's interview after Booster's death and his criticism of the character and comments about him made me -stop- reading 52, because it pissed me off so much. Booster was a personal favorite 'coz he was actually the very first comic I read. :)

I've always dug Animal Man. One of the few works by Morrison I actually really did like (No, I'm not a giant Morrison fan. Loved his JLA and We3, but beyond that, a lot of his stuff just isn't my bag.) but my only exposure to the Dibny's was Starman.

[Red X]

Thats some random crap.

[MazingMan728]

Honestly, I doubt it'll be the question, though I do wonder about Rucka's answer to the 'Does Vic have to die for Renee to be the new question?' line he was asked, and he specifically said no. But then, they've been lying a -lot- about things, since people specifically asked if Ralph was still on the sauce or on gingold, so really, the writers have extremely little credibility when it comes to basing things off theri interviews anyways. It's why they strike me as so pointless sometimes. :)

Still not interested in Renee as the Question in the slightest. Everything that interested me about her character and her perspective is, and will be, gone. I'll be glad when Ralph comes back much like I was glad when Booster came back. Honestly, all these deaths are just annoying.

Rucka will probably try the "It was Charlie who died and not Vic" path to get out of that question...no pun intended.

[vbartilucci]

I do wonder about Rucka's answer to the 'Does Vic have to die for Renee to be the new question?' line he was asked, and he specifically said no.
Does he have to die? No.
Did Ted have to die to make his discovery of Checkmate that much more dramatic? No.

Did they die? Yes.

Have to and will are not the same thing

[crood]

Does anyone in comics ever really get trapped "forever"? Of course not. Faust and Neron were going to get out eventually, so they might as well have let them out. While it's true that being trapped for less than 3 months is a bit short considering the "for all eternity" aspect, it's not like we weren't going to see them again.

[IvCNuB4]

Riddle me this....

If Ralph is dead, and Neron/Faust can't leave the Tower...

How'd his ring get on her tombstone?

Not to mention, isn't there a law of magic that states once the spell-caster dies, any of their active/current spells are broken ? So, in effect, Neron and Faust would be free anyway. Smells like a red herring to me ....

[ElijahSnowFan]

OK, i'll say it:

42 weeks for a Neron appearance?

son of a bitch.

three things i hate in comic books: time travel, magic and resurrections.

i'm getting a hefty freaking dose of the first two in 52, and if i don't get the third with Vic Sage as The Question, i'm going to be seriously pissed, because i will never understand the need to kill that character in the first place -- and no, making Renee Montoya more relevant in the DC Universe is NOT the answer.

[cncoyle]

OK, i'll say it:

42 weeks for a Neron appearance?

son of a bitch.That's my gut reaction as well, but I'm cautiously awaiting reading the issue. Neron was an okay character for Underworld Unleashed and kinda works for Kid Devil's situation, but WTF does he have to do with Ralph's story? Felix Faust at least has some history with the Dibny's as a JLA villain, but frickin' Neron?
http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/images/neron.gif
He looks like WWF's Mr. Perfect in a rejected Power Rangers armor!:rolleyes:
They're going to let that Mort be the one that kills The Elongated Man?
Oy, I hope there's more to the Ralph Dibny saga, otherwise this could be a huge let-down.

[AgentSaint]

That's my gut reaction as well, but I'm cautiously awaiting reading the issue. Neron was an okay character for Underworld Unleashed and kinda works for Kid Devil's situation, but WTF does he have to do with Ralph's story? Felix Faust at least has some history with the Dibny's as a JLA villain, but frickin' Neron?
http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/images/neron.gif
He looks like WWF's Mr. Perfect in a rejected Power Rangers armor!:rolleyes:
They're going to let that Mort be the one that kills The Elongated Man?
Oy, I hope there's more to the Ralph Dibny saga, otherwise this could be a huge let-down.
Looking back they had claimed that Ralphs saga wrapped up this week, but these are the same people who when asked if animal man would be seen again said, "Do Flashbacks count?"
So pretty much is not wrapped up. it means there could be more pages. :)

[chap22]

That's my gut reaction as well, but I'm cautiously awaiting reading the issue. Neron was an okay character for Underworld Unleashed and kinda works for Kid Devil's situation, but WTF does he have to do with Ralph's story? Felix Faust at least has some history with the Dibny's as a JLA villain, but frickin' Neron?
http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/images/neron.gif
He looks like WWF's Mr. Perfect in a rejected Power Rangers armor!:rolleyes:
They're going to let that Mort be the one that kills The Elongated Man?
Oy, I hope there's more to the Ralph Dibny saga, otherwise this could be a huge let-down.

now granted, i haven't seen the issue yet, but come on folks...i can't believe ANYBODY thinks from these spoilers and what we've seen on 52 and OYL so far that Ralph is actually dead. i ain't buying it. Waid wouldn't do that (and come on, Ralph, Faust, Fate and Neron? you KNOW this leg of the 52 journey was Waid's baby)

[Stressfactor]

I suspect Booster might have been too. If fans hadn't been quite so vocal about him and his mischaracterization before death, I -really- don't think he'd have turned out to be Supernova, but that's an unprovable speculation on my part. Honestly, DiDio's interview after Booster's death and his criticism of the character and comments about him made me -stop- reading 52, because it pissed me off so much. Booster was a personal favorite 'coz he was actually the very first comic I read.


You know, once again, TECHNICALLY Didio din't lie about Booster's "death". Booster himself said that what Supernova was carrying was Booster's corpse... its just his *future* corpse. At that point, technically, Booster *was* dead. Michael Carter was still alive as Supernova, but "Booster Gold" was dead.

It's all in the semantics.

Still, sorry to see Ralph go... even if it may only be for a little while. The thing I don't understand, though, is why Ralph chose to do this. I mean, the spoilers make it sound like this was some personal vendetta or big deal that Ralph bag Neron and Faust. As far as I know Ralph had no big grudge with either one and yes, they are bad guys but its been a long time since Neron was a major threat level. So in many ways I don't understand Ralph's sacrifice. I mean, its noble and all that but... who is he really saving here? What is he preventing? Who really benefits from his sacrifice?

[AgentSaint]

In his mind I think he benefits everyone from not having Felix Faust around.

[MazingMan728]

Does anyone in comics ever really get trapped "forever"? Of course not. Faust and Neron were going to get out eventually, so they might as well have let them out. While it's true that being trapped for less than 3 months is a bit short considering the "for all eternity" aspect, it's not like we weren't going to see them again.

One silly thing about Neron thinking that they will be trapped forever is that the wish gun is in their with them. He may not be able to break the binding spell that Ralph used but he should be able to figure some way out. Unless the real Helmet of Fate returns and kicks them out.

[BornToRun]

Waid said that Ralph's story ends in this issue, but DC's solicitations had been saying issue 43. Maybe we'll get to find out Ralph's "punchline" sooner rather than later? Probably not, as the solicitations for this series have been scrambled a bit.

[Morocco_Mole]

One silly thing about Neron thinking that they will be trapped forever is that the wish gun is in their with them. He may not be able to break the binding spell that Ralph used but he should be able to figure some way out.

Neron might be able to destroy the gun, thereby breaking all the spells it created (if the old "smash the magic thingy" ploy works).

I'm assuming, of course, that there were only two bullets in the gun, so Faust can't wish Ralph back and make him release the spell...?

Still, sounds cool, and I look forward to reading it.

[vbartilucci]

Neron was an okay character for Underworld Unleashed and kinda works for Kid Devil's situation, but WTF does he have to do with Ralph's story?

I get the connection between Faust and Neron; Neron is bascially a dealmaker, and Faust wanted to cut a pretty major deal, so having him show up in the story makes sense.

The thing that I find interesting is that such a mid-carder shows up twice in rapid succession, both (co-)written by the same guy. I feel (fear) they're planning to make Neron a major player again, or at least use him in a major plotline (don't forget the Blue Devil/Shadowpact connection)

Tie that to the new Fate book and the new characters they've created in the Fate one-shots; they seem to be ramping up the mystic side of the DCU again. Which I don't mind at all.

BTW, thinking of OYL Faust appearances, didn't he also show up in EDIT Birds of Prey /EDIT (sorry chap22, didn't catch your note earlier) in that Black Alice story? I believe that was OYL.

[cncoyle]

I get the connection between Faust and Neron; Neron is bascially a dealmaker, and Faust wanted to cut a pretty major deal, so having him show up in the story makes sense.Yeah, but this is Ralph's story. Faust is the "surprise" villain. Neron is tangentially connected to the surprise villain, not the hero of the story, yet he's the one that (supposedly) ends Ralph's story?

That's 10 times worse than the Identity Crisis killer reveal, imo. At least Crazy Jean appeared in the story and contributed to it.

[chap22]

BTW, thinking of OYL Faust appearances, didn't he also show up in EDIT Birds of Prey /EDIT in that Black Alice story? I believe that was OYL.
yes he did, as i mentioned back on page 2 of this thread.;) :cool:

[chap22]

Yeah, but this is Ralph's story. Faust is the "surprise" villain. Neron is tangentially connected to the surprise villain, not the hero of the story, yet he's the one that (supposedly) ends Ralph's story?

That's 10 times worse than the Identity Crisis killer reveal, imo. At least Crazy Jean appeared in the story and contributed to it.

i still refuse to believe Ralph's story is "ended". there's more coming somewhere...

[vbartilucci]

Yeah, but this is Ralph's story. Faust is the "surprise" villain. Neron is tangentially connected to the surprise villain, not the hero of the story, yet he's the one that (supposedly) ends Ralph's story?

That's 10 times worse than the Identity Crisis killer reveal, imo. At least Crazy Jean appeared in the story and contributed to it.

No, I'll give them that, it's definitely Ralph that ends Ralph's story. And I'll even say that he may not have known about Neron's involvement, or expect to trap Neron as well. His plan was to get Faust, Neron was icing on the cake.

But as I say, based on the post-OYL appearances, Ralph's act was a gorram waste. So either there's more to it, or it was a major misstep. And again, to be fair, they've done a good job of making the deaths mean something, so I'm willing to believe there's more to come.

BOY this weekend's gonna be interesting.

[vbartilucci]

Neron might be able to destroy the gun, thereby breaking all the spells it created (if the old "smash the magic thingy" ploy works).

I'm assuming, of course, that there were only two bullets in the gun, so Faust can't wish Ralph back and make him release the spell...?

I don't think so, using the precendents set on I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched, only the person who cast a spell can remove a spell. But (using the corollary as specified in Malificent vs Merryweather, 1959) the spell might be able to be changed. Possibly Faust is released to find a way to release Neron. Neron cannot leave the tower himself, but perhaps if he is summoned, he can be DRAWN out.

(Can you tell I didn't get a lot of sleep last night?)

[ReccaSquirrl]

One of the previews for March states "a warning from beyond the grave".

I highly doubt Ralph is dead. He is the world's greatest detective and the mystery hasn't been revealed. I suspect we'll find more out later.

[ReccaSquirrl]

Besides, Ralph's story is a parallel of Dante's Inferno.

Purgatory is a tower that comes up to the Terrace of Heaven. His guide in Paradise is his wife. His "death" gives him the transition to Heaven he needs to complete his journey.

[*RW*]

Well, I hope they don't cop out on us and stick the resolution to this story in Countdown. The 52 stories should be dealth with AND FINISHED in 52...

[Justin M. Campbell]

Besides, Ralph's story is a parallel of Dante's Inferno.

Purgatory is a tower that comes up to the Terrace of Heaven. His guide in Paradise is his wife. His "death" gives him the transition to Heaven he needs to complete his journey.

Good notice.

Plus, didn't one the 52 guys @ one point say that one of the aspects of the story was going to be called "Dibny beats the Devil?"

[Kent Horton]

OK, i'll say it:

42 weeks for a Neron appearance?

son of a bitch.

three things i hate in comic books: time travel, magic and resurrections.
:eek:
Time travel and magic are the best things in comics!

[ElijahSnowFan]

:eek:
Time travel and magic are the best things in comics!

nah, i disagree, because creators use it to "cheat" too much, IMO.

it just is an overused plot device to have characters escape death via time travel, or, in Booster Gold's case, still be a major player by having his own corpse be in the present.

i just think it's a more powerful story, a better story, if you lay your cards on the table and say, "hey, here's the deal. these characters are right here, right now. we want to tell this story, which starts here and ends here. how do we make these characters overcome the odds and triumph, right here, right now? no tricks, no magic."

i think that, to me, shows the struggle and growth in characters in stories. time travel and magic -- too much of a copout to me.

i mean, it's like Superman. i know he's going to win the fight. it's the struggle that matters. i just think time travel and magic lessens that -- too easy to "walk out" of a story.

[caats19]

double. thing. whatev. good issue

[caats19]

ralph went down as a badass. that was awesome. "because faust, i'm a detective". that belongs in that "pwned" or whatever thread. and he's back with his wife, so i'm not gonna complain. strong ending for ralph. that was good

[gwangung]

ralph went down as a badass. that was awesome. "because faust, i'm a detective". that belongs in that "pwned" or whatever thread. and he's back with his wife, so i'm not gonna complain. strong ending for ralph. that was good

Hm. It occurs to me that Neron and Ralph are tied together now; to bring back Neron means you have to bring back Ralph.

Hm. I'm OK with that.

[R.McKegan]

Am in the only one who found the whole reveal of Faust to be convoluted and at times nonsensical? I guess I should read it again, I did flip through it very quickly.

Usually a big fan of Robertson's art but it was so different from what we've seen on 52 before that I found it a bit jarring.

And how'd the ring get out fo the tower again? It's great there are all these theories but if it's not shown in the book, that's all they are theories.

Have to say, I felt a bit let down by this issue.

[mrbones]

Excellent Finale for the Dibnys. Ralph went out like the pro he was. Im satisfied with that ending and I hope its a meaningful death... So Long Ralph and Sue, DC's premier couple May You Rest In Peace.

[Kent Horton]

Am in the only one who found the whole reveal of Faust to be convoluted and at times nonsensical? I guess I should read it again, I did flip through it very quickly.
Just you. :p
Seriously though, it makes a lot of sense, more so if you know Faust's history. A lot of us have been calling it for a few weeks now.

[God-Man]

At least Ralph will finally reunite with Sue. I know a few people called the Felix Faust reveal weeks ago, but that didn't take away from the story at all. It was great to see Ralph reveal to Faust how he knew he was a fake. He had total control over the situation, even as Neron killed him. I hate that Ralph is gone, but what a way to go.

[bob_at_york]

I wouldn't have any problem with Ralph's death except that DC has been killing JLI characters for the last couple of years now. They know they are pissing off JLI fans but they continue to do it. I am getting tired of it. You combine this with some of hte other stuff DC is doing and I am close to dropping A LOT of their books.

[Groovie Mann]

i liked this issue a lot. my favorite sicne week 37(or was it 38...) and possibly my favorite oevrall. the second half of 52 has been so good.

[Skyrider]

I wouldn't have any problem with Ralph's death except that DC has been killing JLI characters for the last couple of years now. They know they are pissing off JLI fans but they continue to do it. I am getting tired of it. You combine this with some of hte other stuff DC is doing and I am close to dropping A LOT of their books.

Hey now...Bea, Booster, and Guy are all still among the living...for now.

[God-Man]

Hey now...Bea, Booster, and Guy are all still among the living...for now.

Yeah, they need to keep at least one of them around until they kill them in Countdown.

[bob_at_york]

Hey now...Bea, Booster, and Guy are all still among the living...for now.
remind me... are we even sure if this is OUR Booster?

[Skyrider]

remind me... are we even sure if this is OUR Booster?

Yea, I'm convinced that Rip Hunter is Daniel.

[Evan Waters]

DC, please to be stopping with the killing of good characters. Yes?

[hunterjax]

Riddle me this....

If Ralph is dead, and Neron/Faust can't leave the Tower...

How'd his ring get on her tombstone?


Didn't Ralph give Fire Sue's ring at the beginning of 52?

[catman]

I love 52, but this issue kinda let me down. I've loved the Ralph storyline and to tell you the truth I expected a better ending. This one just seemed a little too confusing and not quite meaningful enough.

[caats19]

what were those blue lights leaving the tower. and shut up about killing characters already. all this means is that jli was made up of b-list convenient to kill people

[AgentSaint]

I love 52, but this issue kinda let me down. I've loved the Ralph storyline and to tell you the truth I expected a better ending. This one just seemed a little too confusing and not quite meaningful enough.
I think its great because in the end the last thing he ever did, Beat Neron and Faust. The only thing that woulda been better is if he had a chance to WTFPWN Dr Light at the same time.

[AgentSaint]

what were those blue lights leaving the tower. and shut up about killing characters already. all this means is that jli was made up of b-list convenient to kill people
Why are they convenient to kill?
Because they arent in a book!
DAMNIT WE NEED TO GET THE LIVING 52 INTO A BOOK!
I would love to see a continuation of 52 maybe in a monthly.

[Evan Waters]

what were those blue lights leaving the tower. and shut up about killing characters already. all this means is that jli was made up of b-list convenient to kill people

Characters shouldn't be killed simply because it's convenient. It needs to be an organic end to their story.

Ralph's apparent demise seems to fit 52, but it just seems an inappropriately suicidal ending for such a previously happy-go-lucky guy. He and Sue shoulda just grown old together.

[caats19]

please. superhero business should have death in it.

[Evan Waters]

please. superhero business should have death in it.

Counterpoint: The Galactus Trilogy. The threat of death is important (assuming you're not telling a lower-key "crime-fighting" story, of the sort Ralph-as-Elongated-Man starred in back in the day), but you don't always have to have a named character bite it to demonstrate that threat. It's the most direct way, but also costly as you lose the use of that character (at least on a temporary basis).

[Ranadiel]

Didn't Ralph give Fire Sue's ring at the beginning of 52?
Ralph and Fire haven't been in the same panel together since teh begining of 52 so that seems unlikely.

what were those blue lights leaving the tower.
The blue lights weren't leaving the tower, those were the chain link and wheel that Ralph has recently collected that were forming the barrier around the tower.

[CYOTI]

DC, please to be stopping with the killing of good characters. Yes? A character who hasn't had a ongoing and a mini for over a decade and has become nothing more than a one sided joke is a "good character"? Sorry try again.

[CYOTI]

remind me... are we even sure if this is OUR Booster? No this is obviously a clone from another another dimension. :rolleyes: Yes he is the real Booster and the rampant paranoia and persecution complex of the JLI fans stopped being entertaining along time ago.

[vbartilucci]

A character who hasn't had a ongoing and a mini for over a decade and has become nothing more than a one sided joke is a "good character"? Sorry try again.
OK, so the new rule is if they haven't been in a book for ten years they cease being a good character?

When was the last Tarzan comic? Or Mike Hammer? Or Romeo and Juliet? Not to say Ralph is on par with those, but your rule seems to need a little fleshing out.

Hey, they haven't made a Flash Gordon movie or comic in a while, does he suck now?

And all of the character's old appearances, do they suck retroactively once your rule comes into play?

And what about Slam Bradley? Was he a lousy character right up until he started to appear in Catwoman?

A good character stays a good character. Just because someone can't think of a good story to use them in now doesn't make them any less good. Adam Strange, Captain Comet, even the Elongated Man all got used in great stories over the last year, but accordiong to you, since they hadn't been used for a long time before that, they're bad characters?

You strike me as a very young person, one who has only been reading comics a couple years and doesn't have a real sense of history, either in comics or most likely in any other area. If it isn't currently in your face, it's old and lame.

Either that, or you're Dan Didio.

[catman]

I think its great because in the end the last thing he ever did, Beat Neron and Faust. The only thing that woulda been better is if he had a chance to WTFPWN Dr Light at the same time.

Yeah, but was it really worth giving his life to beat Neron and Faust? I know they messed with him, but still. And I know he's with Sue again,but I still think the conclusion could have been stronger. Plus, I'm a little confused by some of Ralphs dialouge with Neron. Did he die just to defeat Neron and Faust? Did he know he would join Sue when he died? And the changing of the wish thing didn't make a lot of sense to me. Oh well, Bea found the Ring, so mabey the sotry isn't over just yet.

[caats19]

it was worth it to him, cause how many people die smiling. it's not like ralph didn't want to die. maybe i don't ask enough questions to ruin comics enough

[JAGII]

Yeah, but was it really worth giving his life to beat Neron and Faust? I know they messed with him, but still. And I know he's with Sue again,but I still think the conclusion could have been stronger. Plus, I'm a little confused by some of Ralphs dialouge with Neron. Did he die just to defeat Neron and Faust? Did he know he would join Sue when he died? And the changing of the wish thing didn't make a lot of sense to me. Oh well, Bea found the Ring, so mabey the sotry isn't over just yet.

You make all good points here, which why I have to agree with others that Ralph's story hasn't ended yet.

Like chap22 said, this is definitely Waid's part of the story and he is far too competent a writer to end months of character and plot building with a surprise guest star. To screw up the Tolstoy quote, Neron wasn't a gun in the first act, so he's not going off in the third.

I really wonder if all of the complaining we've been doing about the 52 deaths reflects the only way writers can build tension with deaths anymore. I mean, we all know that if Ralph actually stays dead, then someone else will bring him back in a few years. There is no finality in mainstream super-hero comics, so how do you shock fans with a death? Make it out of character and under suspicious circumstances-- as shown by Animal Man and Booster's deaths. That way, when then inevitably do come back, we readers get a pay-off for our distress. The pay-off isn't that the character is simply back; we knew s/he would be back all along. The pay-off is that the unsatisfying circumstances surrounding their deaths are answered and set right.

Just a theory.

[vbartilucci]

Yeah, but was it really worth giving his life to beat Neron and Faust? I know they messed with him, but still. And I know he's with Sue again,but I still think the conclusion could have been stronger. Plus, I'm a little confused by some of Ralphs dialouge with Neron. Did he die just to defeat Neron and Faust? Did he know he would join Sue when he died? And the changing of the wish thing didn't make a lot of sense to me. Oh well, Bea found the Ring, so mabey the sotry isn't over just yet.
If the story isn't over, it was a major misstep. As we've already seen, both Neron and Faust are free OYL.

"What exactly was Ralph's wish?" is a very good question, and one I hope gets answered. Odds are it's something to the effect of "I wish those responsible for this hoax suffer"-it explains why the helmet flew off his head, as opposed to his scalp, and it explains how Faust and Neron got trapped (however temporarily) in the Tower.

Also, It's not quite clear if he indeed MADE a wish back in ish 1. He wanted to, but since he never pulled the trigger it's like he didn't have to. The whole "you were in my spell" could be taken metaphoically.

If it's one thing I've learned in my years of reading rehashes of The Monkey's Paw, it's that wishes are very slippery things. Very literal, and loophole-laden.

I'm taking the ring on the grave to be Ralph's action-he left it there not as a tribute, but a clue. It was a major part of the whole spell, it probably has Faust funk all over it, it can be used to pull Ralph (and Sue?) back, or perhaps as a weapon against Faust later.

As a rule, last gestures should mean something, and they should be successful. In fiction anyway, especially for a beloved character. If Ralph's last act was not successful, then his death was pointless and a waste. Beetle's death was meaningful-he successfully got the data to those who could help. I want him back TOO, don't misunderstand, but at least he achieved something with his Last Act.

[vbartilucci]

I really wonder if all of the complaining we've been doing about the 52 deaths reflects the only way writers can build tension with deaths anymore. I mean, we all know that if Ralph actually stays dead, then someone else will bring him back in a few years. There is no finality in mainstream super-hero comics, so how do you shock fans with a death? Make it out of character and under suspicious circumstances-- as shown by Animal Man and Booster's deaths. That way, when then inevitably do come back, we readers get a pay-off for our distress. The pay-off isn't that the character is simply back; we knew s/he would be back all along. The pay-off is that the unsatisfying circumstances surrounding their deaths are answered and set right.

Just a theory.
And a damn fine one. It's odd to say that we have grown bored with death in comics, but you've touched it with a pin. Death is just another foe to beat, the trick is in making it a good fight.

[cncoyle]

Okay, read the issue last night. Count me in among the "It ain't over..." crowd concerning Ralph's story.

[CYOTI]

When was the last Tarzan comic? Or Mike Hammer? Or Romeo and Juliet? It doesn't really matter given these aren't comic book characters and have origins in other media. In regards to, Romeo and Juliet they have had multiple reimaginings in the theater.

Hey, they haven't made a Flash Gordon movie or comic in a while, does he suck now? Yes given the overt racist Asian caricatures.

And what about Slam Bradley? Was he a lousy character right up until he started to appear in Catwoman? He is and continues to be uninteresting imo.

Just because someone can't think of a good story to use them in now doesn't make them any less good. Adam Strange, Captain Comet, even the Elongated Man all got used in great stories over the last year Can't think of any for Elongated Man frankly and the stories where he has been used in, he has become a joke thanks to the Giffen&DeMatteis league. Better to let him die with dignity.

You strike me as a very young person, one who has only been reading comics a couple years and doesn't have a real sense of history Try again Sherlock, I have been reading this stuff for almost a decade.

[vbartilucci]

"When was the last Tarzan comic? Or Mike Hammer? Or Romeo and Juliet? "

It doesn't really matter given these aren't comic book characters and have origins in other media. In regards to, Romeo and Juliet they have had multiple reimaginings in the theater.

So your rule only applies to comics? A good character is a good character, regardless of the source. And if they're good, they work in any medium, if they're properly written.

"Hey, they haven't made a Flash Gordon movie or comic in a while, does he suck now? "
Yes given the overt racist Asian caricatures.

(pulls out his english-to-crazy phrasebook) The say what now?
Did you buy the special hardbound collection for the easily offended or something?


Can't think of any for Elongated Man frankly and the stories where he has been used in, he has become a joke thanks to the Giffen&DeMatteis league. Better to let him die with dignity.

Try again Sherlock, I have been reading this stuff for almost a decade.
Ah. Ten years. Wow. A veteran. Well I've certainly been bitch-slapped.

Come back when you've been reading (and learning) for thirty-five to forty years, and see if your tone hasn't changed.

Wait till someone says Spawn (or some other modern hippety-hop character you kids like) is lame and watch you go whacko. You'll think back to this conversation, and the penny will drop.

[Moriarty]

Okay, read the issue last night. Count me in among the "It ain't over..." crowd concerning Ralph's story.

Count me in now as well.

[caats19]

when was elongated man interesting pre-identity crisis. he was NEVER that badass. he never was more than just a joke

[chap22]

when was elongated man interesting pre-identity crisis. he was NEVER that badass. he never was more than just a joke
there is a HUGE difference in "badass" and interesting. Ralph has always been interesting because he's been differnt...he was ahappily married, publicly-known superhero. his powers were never what made him cool, it was the twitching nose, the detective skills, the sheer fun he had being a detective. his old guest-appearances in the Barry Allen days, his satellite-era membership, his day in the JLE and the two sequel minis, his role in Starman...Ralph has alway been interesting without having to be dark or grim or loaded up with guns and pouches and shoulder pads.

and just because he makes jokes never meant he was one.

[kalandine]

I still think Ralph plans to have Neron resurrect both himself and Sue in exchange for dropping the ward around the tower.

Given that others can be brought into the tower (Neron came in after the ward was in place), there is no reason Neron couldn't summon others to the tower to satisfy his lusts/needs. Letting Neron return to the Underworld would actually leave him to only satisfy himself on those willing to give up their own souls.

I like the return of Neron as an impact villain in the DCU. So, as long as this is not really the end of Ralph Dibny, I am pretty happy with this issue.

[kalandine]

there is a HUGE difference in "badass" and interesting. Ralph has always been interesting because he's been differnt...he was ahappily married, publicly-known superhero. his powers were never what made him cool, it was the twitching nose, the detective skills, the sheer fun he had being a detective. his old guest-appearances in the Barry Allen days, his satellite-era membership, his day in the JLE and the two sequel minis, his role in Starman...Ralph has alway been interesting without having to be dark or grim or loaded up with guns and pouches and shoulder pads.

and just because he makes jokes never meant he was one.


Two sequel minis????? I only have the Europe '92 (Jones/Parobeck) one. Can you provide a bit of info about the second mini?

[bob_at_york]

No this is obviously a clone from another another dimension. :rolleyes: Yes he is the real Booster and the rampant paranoia and persecution complex of the JLI fans stopped being entertaining along time ago.
He is? Because he started to act a lot different after going into the future last year.

[vbartilucci]

there is a HUGE difference in "badass" and interesting. Ralph has always been interesting because he's been differnt...he was ahappily married, publicly-known superhero. his powers were never what made him cool, it was the twitching nose, the detective skills, the sheer fun he had being a detective. his old guest-appearances in the Barry Allen days, his satellite-era membership, his day in the JLE and the two sequel minis, his role in Starman...Ralph has alway been interesting without having to be dark or grim or loaded up with guns and pouches and shoulder pads.

and just because he makes jokes never meant he was one.

You summed up the case for Ralph perfectly.

The argument is over, everyone else pack up and go home.

[Nights]

His last word were this isn't over.. so i am thinking this isn't over.

Oh and DC lied to us all. I knew Ralph wasn't a boozer... I really enjoy this book every week.

[JAGII]

there is a HUGE difference in "badass" and interesting. Ralph has always been interesting because he's been differnt...he was ahappily married, publicly-known superhero. his powers were never what made him cool, it was the twitching nose, the detective skills, the sheer fun he had being a detective. his old guest-appearances in the Barry Allen days, his satellite-era membership, his day in the JLE and the two sequel minis, his role in Starman...Ralph has alway been interesting without having to be dark or grim or loaded up with guns and pouches and shoulder pads.

and just because he makes jokes never meant he was one.

Thank goodness for a voice in the desert!

Being "badass" can be interesting, sure. But its not the only way and, in the current comic-book climate, it is certainly the easiest way.

You want conflict in a character? Make him someone who "breaks the law to enforce the law!*" Problem solved. And if you don't want to take the time to prove a character's "badass-ness," have them do something violent and grotesque, like tear apart a mother and child (I know, those were villains, but the point still applies).

I blame readers for this as much the writers. It takes a little extra time and few less splash pages to recognize tension and conflict in a character who isn't carrying guns or isn't grim and brooding. There are no instant icons to help us along the way. But, from my own standpoint, that investment has paid off in dividends.

And if you really like "badass" characters-- great! Go enjoy 'em! They aren't hard to find. But for those of us who like characters that are interesting with a silly name and a silly power and wiggling nose, let us have our characters that you don't really like anyway.

*"If that doesn't sound like a CBS cop show, then I don't know what does!" - Dr. Tobias Funke.

[Nights]

Has anyone notice that everyone say that JLI was a joke and more than likely never read the book? I mean JLI was more than a few oneliners it had some very intresting stories and did a great job even tho half the time DC tied the creators hands.

[Kal-El577]

Yeah, but was it really worth giving his life to beat Neron and Faust? I know they messed with him, but still. And I know he's with Sue again,but I still think the conclusion could have been stronger. Plus, I'm a little confused by some of Ralphs dialouge with Neron. Did he die just to defeat Neron and Faust? Did he know he would join Sue when he died? And the changing of the wish thing didn't make a lot of sense to me. Oh well, Bea found the Ring, so mabey the sotry isn't over just yet.

Actually, the manner of Ralph's death (much as I hate it) doesn't bother me overmuch. The establishing shots of Ralph's scenes at the beginning of "52" showed a man who had given up on life, lending to an implication of suicidal tendancies. But Ralph couldn't do away with himself: Many religions espouse that suicide is a sin; a sin that can lead to Hell (and its been shown that varying degrees and forms of Hell exist in the DCU). Ralph's more than enough of a detective to know that if he were to take his own life he would be committing a sin that would keep him separate from Sue for all eternity. The wishing gun wish gave him a way out. He would die HEROICALLY by imprisoning an evil nether demon and an agent of evil all in one swoop, thus earning entry into heaven and a place by Sue's side. Maybe Ralph wasn't aware of the details of the wish and how they would play out, but it led to the optimal solution he was looking for: Reunification with Sue. Unfortunately, it is not concretely known whether or not Ralph achieved his aim. However, if one were to go by the smile on Ralph's face at the last panel shot of his body (coupled with an inference not in the story of seeing loved ones in the light just before expiration), the implication would be that he did.

[royce73]

Actually, the manner of Ralph's death (much as I hate it) doesn't bother me overmuch. The establishing shots of Ralph's scenes at the beginning of "52" showed a man who had given up on life, lending to an implication of suicidal tendancies. But Ralph couldn't do away with himself: Many religions espouse that suicide is a sin; a sin that can lead to Hell (and its been shown that varying degrees and forms of Hell exist in the DCU). Ralph's more than enough of a detective to know that if he were to take his own life he would be committing a sin that would keep him separate from Sue for all eternity. The wishing gun wish gave him a way out. He would die HEROICALLY by imprisoning an evil nether demon and an agent of evil all in one swoop, thus earning entry into heaven and a place by Sue's side. Maybe Ralph wasn't aware of the details of the wish and how they would play out, but it led to the optimal solution he was looking for: Reunification with Sue. Unfortunately, it is not concretely known whether or not Ralph achieved his aim. However, if one were to go by the smile on Ralph's face at the last panel shot of his body (coupled with an inference not in the story of seeing loved ones in the light just before expiration), the implication would be that he did.

If this is the end for the Dibny saga, I think it was a splendid one. I, too, was a bit put off with early gun-in-the-mouth scenes as I thought it was a gross mischaracterization. I loved Ralph's sacrifice and I got the feeling that somehow he was reunited with Sue in the "after-life". He had nothing to live for but sacrificed himself for a good cause - a perfect definition of a hero.

Montoya, on the other hand, BLEEECCHHHH

[chap22]

Two sequel minis????? I only have the Europe '92 (Jones/Parobeck) one. Can you provide a bit of info about the second mini?
i meant Formerly Known As The Justice League and I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League, the two recent Giffen/JMD/Maguire reunions.

[chap22]

Has anyone notice that everyone say that JLI was a joke and more than likely never read the book? I mean JLI was more than a few oneliners it had some very intresting stories and did a great job even tho half the time DC tied the creators hands.
yeah, the whole "BWA-HAHAHA" thing is a bit of a misconception. for a book that is remembered now as the "humor League" (which of course it did have), there was a lot of serious goings on in that book. violence, betrayals, deaths, big villains, etc etc. the humor really was just there as a counterpoint.

[Bullrunner]

Of course Ralph's story isn't over. He planned it this way all along. Now Neron and Faust are trapped in the Tower, with thier only hope of escape lying dead on the floor. Ralph was goading Neron into killing him before thinking the situation through. Neron has to bring Ralph back now in order to get out.

Whatcha want to bet that Ralph is going to include bringing Sue back as part of the deal?

"I'll let you out of the Tower, but you have to bring me and my wife back from the dead and then leave us alive and unharmed forever and ever."

[csGuy]

what was Ralph's motivation for this whole scheme against Neron and Faust?

[Stazz]

This issue didn't explain what it was Ralph took from the Flash Museum, did it? And if Neron's trapped, how does his deal with Kid Devil have any threat to it?

[CYOTI]

So your rule only applies to comics? A good character is a good character, regardless of the source. And if they're good, they work in any medium, if they're properly written. Then you miss my point, he hasn't been reinterpreted. In fact he has been stuck in the 80s since the DeMatteis and Giffen JLI mess.


Yes given the overt racist Asian caricatures
(pulls out his english-to-crazy phrasebook) The say what now?
Did you buy the special hardbound collection for the easily offended or something? I take it you also have no problems with depicting blacks as gorillas then? Good to know that you are still stuck in the past. :cool:


Come back when you've been reading (and learning) for thirty-five to forty years, and see if your tone hasn't changed. Hopefully not, since most that fixate on comics that long are usually embittered old men living in their parents basements.

Wait till someone says Spawn (or some other modern hippety-hop character you kids like) is lame and watch you go whacko. I doubt it because at the end it's nothing, but a comic book though Spawn signified the worst excesses of the 90s and of McFarlane..

[CYOTI]

This issue didn't explain what it was Ralph took from the Flash Museum, did it? Wasn't it the magic gun he donated?


And if Neron's trapped, how does his deal with Kid Devil have any threat to it? Simple he escapes or Ralph frees him. Most likely the latter.

[Stazz]

Wasn't it the magic gun he donated?

The one he already had on week 1?

[Ranadiel]

This issue didn't explain what it was Ralph took from the Flash Museum, did it? And if Neron's trapped, how does his deal with Kid Devil have any threat to it?
Because the deal was Kid Devil would become his apprentice, and when magic is involved I would imagine he can train him even when he is trappen in a tower just by projecting his image into wherever he is training him.

[rdrsfn82]

The one he already had on week 1?

He had a regular gun in week one. When he went to the Flash museum he stole the gun from the "Anselmo" case which was the magic gun he used in this issue.

[Ranadiel]

He had a regular gun in week one. When he went to the Flash museum he stole the gun from the "Anselmo" case which was the magic gun he used in this issue.
No he had the wishing gun at the begining which is something that was pretty clearly stated in this issue. However, I think he might have given up the gun after then, but I'm not really too sure.

[Mr_Thorpe]

I freaked when I realised Ralph had been drinking gingold the whole time.

[d0dg3r]

Glad I read this thread, because after finishing the issue I was really depressed. Ralph became one of my very favorite characters during 52, and seeing his somewhat suicidal (although heroic) end in this issue brought me waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down. I'm not convinced he'll be back, but after reading some of the info in this thread I'm convinced it's possible.

And on a different point, another place Ralph was written VERY well was in the pages of Starman. :cool:

[nemosdad]

Little confused about the rings. If the fake helmet of Fate was made from Dibny's wedding band and said band was what shot through him, than what was on the tombstone?

Also does anyone know what story the picture Ralph is holding came from? The pic he was holding when he had his finger ripped off. Saying he changed the wish. The same picture that is rendered perfectly and clearly as he bleeds on it.If your eyesite is really good maybe you could make out what the magnifying lens is highlighting.

[vbartilucci]

He had a regular gun in week one. When he went to the Flash museum he stole the gun from the "Anselmo" case which was the magic gun he used in this issue.
That somewhat disagrees with the explanation of the events in the first issue - he said he was making his wish there. If he wasn't making a wish, he was merely preparing to off himself.

And BTW - this issue's obscure comics reference - "Your thing for fingers..." is a reference to the JLA cover where the team are turned into the fingers on Felix's hands. Don't recall the issue # - I'm sure someone can post a shot of the cover?

[MazingMan728]

This issue didn't explain what it was Ralph took from the Flash Museum, did it? And if Neron's trapped, how does his deal with Kid Devil have any threat to it?

The Kid Devil scene would have already taken place as that issue of Titans was more of a Flashback issue and he met up with Neron a few week's later after being kicked out of the Everyman Project.

[Ranadiel]

The Kid Devil scene would have already taken place as that issue of Titans was more of a Flashback issue and he met up with Neron a few week's later after being kicked out of the Everyman Project.
I believe the Kid Devil issue refers to the last scene of the comic wher Neron is sitting on his throne holding the soul of Kid Devil's aunt in an orb which means either he redecorated the tower or he escaped.

[Bullrunner]

Little confused about the rings. If the fake helmet of Fate was made from Dibny's wedding band and said band was what shot through him, than what was on the tombstone? .


It could be his or maybe Sue's wedding band. Also, the fight between Ralph and Neron was on Day 3, and the final scene in the cemetary was on Day 7. That's four days to play with. Bea doesn't know what has happened to Ralph--she's just scared that he's gone and done something foolish.

This is my theory on what happened in the intervening four days:

Ralph dies and goes to the afterlife. Meets up with Sue. Finds out she's in paradise and doesn't want to come back, even though she loves him dearly. Ralph gets his chance to say goodbye, etc to Sue---something he was denied when she died. Neron brings Ralph back in order to get him to release the spells of binding. Ralph cuts some sort of deal with him and everybody goes their separate ways. Now having some closure, Ralph pulls out of his despair over losing Sue and leaves his wedding ring on her tombstone as a sign that he ready to move on with his life. Bea happens on the wedding ring and assumes the worst has happened.

[NeverReady]

Omigod, they killed Dibny! :eek:

YOU BASTARDS! :D

[IvCNuB4]

And BTW - this issue's obscure comics reference - "Your thing for fingers..." is a reference to the JLA cover where the team are turned into the fingers on Felix's hands. Don't recall the issue # - I'm sure someone can post a shot of the cover?


http://i9.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/80/59/1a86_1.JPG