Why cant the JLA keep their line-up?

[Uchiha_Prodigy]

Pretty simple question, why? Why cant they just come up with one line up and stick with it? Morrison's team seemed to work pretty well.

[CodeGuy]

Different writers want to tell different stories. Since the JLA allows for different cast members, the leeway is there for the writer to pick and choice which characters he needs for any particular story.

[Cyphon]

Because different writers have different favourite characters and different stories that require different characters. Meltzer actually had a pretty decent rationale for how the new team came together.

[AdamYJ]

Well, let's look at that exact line-up as it would appear now:

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
angry, anti-human Martian Manhunter
squid-faced Aquaman
missing Wally West Flash
Ion

Yeah . . . I think it'll need some retooling.

[Uchiha_Prodigy]

Makes sense I guess. I dont know why they just dont stick to the big 7.

[Cyphon]

Makes sense I guess. I dont know why they just dont stick to the big 7.

Well, as many of the big 7 who could be there are there. Unfortunately, there's no Flash in the DCU (Flash: Fastest Man Alive, you are dead to me) and Martian Manhunter isn't really that social.

[Dr.Finger]

Makes sense I guess. I dont know why they just dont stick to the big 7.Because seeing the same 7 characters, even those characters, would get dull after a number of years. And remember the JLA during Morrison's run had 16+ members much of the time too.

[Gamma Duck]

Makes sense I guess. I dont know why they just dont stick to the big 7.

Because there's really not too much you can do with the Big 7. You can put them into fights against big threats and have them bounce up against each other, but with a couple of exceptions nothing you could do with them would stick with the character in the long run.

On the other hand, look at the current JLA. Metzler currently has complete power over Vixen, Black Lightning, Red Tornado, Black Canary and Arsenal. He can affect these characters and make the changes stick. Hell, some of the first things he did were to make Red Tornado human and give Roy a new identity. He wouldn't be able to do that if the team consisted of the Big 7 right now.

[Ben Strasser]

Not really sure why it would stay the same considering the Avengers and X-Men don't. You don't want people getting bored with the team.

[diana_fan]

Also, we're talking about a half-century here. Things are bound to change over time. And then when someone goes back to the Big 7, it's fun.

[God-Man]

Well, let's look at that exact line-up as it would appear now:

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
angry, anti-human Martian Manhunter
squid-faced Aquaman
missing Wally West Flash
Ion

Yeah . . . I think it'll need some retooling.

I'd still take that team over the current incarnation.

[CodeGuy]

Most of the history of the JLA hasn't been the big 7. It started that way, but that's just because they were almost all the characters DC had at the time. The rest of DC's superheroes, like Green Arrow and Atom, were added fairly quickly.

Really, is there any particular reason why the big seven are particularly important? If a writer doesn't have any good stories for Martian Manhunter, then it's silly to have him standing in the background. If a writer has a really good story for the interactions between several good heroes who haven't been on the JLA before, why are the big 7 so sacred that he shouldn't tell that story?

The JLA has always been fluid to some degree. Most team books are. Even the Fantastic Four has had members come and go, and that's the team that's a family, too.

[chap22]

I'd still take that team over the current incarnation.
boooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! Red Tornado, Black Lightning, and Black Canary more than make up for the suckitude that is Roy, and the ho-hum yawn that is induced by Vixen.


:p

[caats19]

better stories. it would get boring i think. i like a team like now, something different.

[Clem]

Personally, i'd JLU-ise the JLA, have every single hero be a reserve member and pick & choose whoever the hell i wanted any given month.

This whole notion that the JLA has to be a specific team of like 7 people is just retarded. Especially when you throw Arsenal, Vixen, Red Tornado and Black Lightning in the mix.

[caats19]

i don't think it's retarded. just traditional. but a JLU type thing would be very cool

[Binker]

Its because of the times, because of the situations they face, because of the writers, because of what the majority of fans want and think of, those are the reasons why the team cahnges. Its not just the JLA, but Teen Titans, Outsiders, and not just the DCU and Marvel as well. New Avengers just changed for example.

It happens because it happens.

[AdamYJ]

I'd still take that team over the current incarnation.

I'd like to see them have a team with "missing Wally" on it.

Batman: Flash, go run and scout ahead.

Everyone looks around.

Batman: Flash?

Superman: Remember Batman, we kind of voted him in when he wasn't even here.

Batman: Oh, right.

Personally, I like the current line-up. Black Lightning should have been a member years ago, considering he's actually been asked. Red Tornado's been a favorite of mine since Young Justice. I'm also looking forward to what Meltzer does with Vixen, who proved to be pretty cool on JLU.

[diana_fan]

boooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! Red Tornado, Black Lightning, and Black Canary competently add to the awesomeness that is Roy, and the interest that is induced by Vixen.


:p

Fixed that for ya, Chap. Don't worry, no charge. :)

As to the the team, I'm completely happy with it. We've got the Big 3, we've got Dinah, Hal, and Roy who make up a rocking team on their own, and then the three characters I didn't really know very well in Reddy, Black Lightning, and Vixen, all of whom hhave proven to be really interesting.

[chap22]

Fixed that for ya, Chap. Don't worry, no charge. :)

As to the the team, I'm completely happy with it. We've got the Big 3, we've got Dinah, Hal, and Roy who make up a rocking team on their own, and then the three characters I didn't really know very well in Reddy, Black Lightning, and Vixen, all of whom hhave proven to be really interesting.
meh. i've seen little in Meltzer's Vixen thus far that's all that interesting. and i actully like Mari, even from way back in the Detroit days. but so far her plotline has been snooze-central.

and Roy blows goats.

[diana_fan]

meh. i've seen little in Meltzer's Vixen thus far that's all that interesting. and i actully like Mari, even from way back in the Detroit days. but so far her plotline has been snooze-central.

I'm curious about her, and interested to see what happens.

and Roy blows goats.

Now, that's just mean. :)

[chap22]

Now, that's just mean. :)
you're right. i shouldn't defame the good name of goats everywhere by associating them with that trash.:p ;)

[diana_fan]

you're right. i shouldn't defame the good name of goats everywhere by associating them with that trash.:p ;)

Yeah ... but ... well ...

OK, I got nothing. Good one.

[Timberoo]

I don't see a reason why any of the "Big 3" need to be in it all, honestly.

[chap22]

I don't see a reason why any of the "Big 3" need to be in it all, honestly.
damn skippy! Nightwing and Donna Troy for JLA membership, dammit!

[Timberoo]

damn skippy! Nightwing and Donna Troy for JLA membership, dammit!

I mean, DC invented "Wolverine Syndrome", you know?

[SouthtownKid]

Makes sense I guess. I dont know why they just dont stick to the big 7."Big 7" is this overused term...it's a good beginning, but too limited. Real classic JLA was "Big 10": Big 7 + Green Arrow, Atom, and Hawkman (with Hawkgirl). Then you have a team with near limitless possibilities.

[diana_fan]

I don't see a reason why any of the "Big 3" need to be in it all, honestly.

Well, they don't "need" to be in it. But I think people like it when they are. I know I do.

To my mind, the JLA should be the biggest and the baddest. Stuff like the Detroit League is fun for a change of pace. But I like the idea of having the Big 3, Hal, etc.

Although, as Chap proposes, having Dick and Donna would be great. OTOH, I think there are big plans for them in the near future.

[AdamYJ]

damn skippy! Nightwing and Donna Troy for JLA membership, dammit!

Yeah, if you want a really boring JLA. :rolleyes:

Y'know, it's weird, I liked these two when they were younger (just read Showcase Presents: Teen Titans). However, once they grew up they became the dullest characters ever in my eyes. Heck, Dick Grayson is probably the best thing to happen to The Batman (the cartoon) in a long time, but on that show he's still a semi-hyperactive pre-teen sidekick.

[Lorendiac]

I liked the way they sometimes did it in the Satellite Era. They must have had something like 20 heroes on the roster in their heyday, but that didn't mean all twenty of them were featured in every single adventure, each trying to get one or two good lines of dialogue squeezed in before it was somebody else's turn to steal the spotlight for the next couple of panels!

No, for a given adventure, a writer might just use, say, Superman, Red Tornado, Zatanna, Firestorm, Wonder Woman, and Elongated Man. The reader was basically supposed to assume that Batman was busy tracking down the Joker again, Hal Jordan was off patrolling the rest of his space sector, Barry Allen was trapped in another dimension, Black Canary was recovering from stomach flu, and who knows what the Phantom Stranger might be up to? You get the idea. That way a writer didn't have to invent contrived excuses to have some characters "quit" and other characters "join" -- he could just look at the large pool of members he was allowed to use, and pick and choose a bare handful of them for any given issue or longer arc.

[drastic_q]

Well, let's look at that exact line-up as it would appear now:

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
angry, anti-human Martian Manhunter
squid-faced Aquaman
missing Wally West Flash
Ion

Yeah . . . I think it'll need some retooling.
No retooling at all! The Big 7 as they are now would be rife with conflict and story. Martian Manhunter all weird and pissed, mutated amnesiac Aquaman, the new Flash with his whole bag... These things all lend themselves well to story possibilities, whereas an idealized version where everyone's in perfect condition and all chumsy is a snoozefest.

[AdamYJ]

No retooling at all! The Big 7 as they are now would be rife with conflict and story. Martian Manhunter all weird and pissed, mutated amnesiac Aquaman, the new Flash with his whole bag... These things all lend themselves well to story possibilities, whereas an idealized version where everyone's in perfect condition and all chumsy is a snoozefest.

So you'd use the new Flash? I still want them to do it with Wally absent. People would just keep talking to him like he was an imaginary friend. :p

Then again, it would be a chance for someone else to do something with Kyle. He's kind of off on the fringes right now. There might even be an excuse to reteam him with Connor.

[Titan Slade]

I also think that Marvel should have never changed the X-Men, and just kept the Big 5, because Wolverine, Storm, Rogue, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Kitty, and the rest of the many X-Men that followed after the Big 5 just ruined the team.;)

[Cray_ws]

I think if you look at the earliest comics that featured a team of heroes, you might've noticed the letter column of readers saying how much they enjoyed their favorite DC character make a guest appearance to the team book. So editors thought maybe they could do a more issues with guest appearances of other characters. Pretty soon there was clear idea of which guest appearances were favorable with readers. So I'm sure by then they thought of adding that popular character to the book permnently. Once a new character joined a team book, fans thought okay if they'll add, maybe they will subtract characters from the team.

After that editors realize fans were more concern of who was on the team than the stories itself. Editors basically figured why not just make roster changing the story. Hence the neverending debate of fans who go ad infinitum about who would be in their JLA or Avengers.

So ever since then its been mandatory to make roster changes, everytime there is a change, such as writer, artist or after a major storyline. Its no surprise that Meltzer and Bene's run has long drawn out introduction of roster and no doubt with changes too.

Personally I think they need a permanant roster, but I also don't mind the revolving door of the last roster spot. I also think there's nothing wrong with having a huge roster, but only if all the characters are involved in some capacity. I guess it depends on the story and not so much about the story of who's on the team.

[roshambo]

I'd ditch Hal Jordan and get John Stewart back in there.

Red Tornado is a good replacement for Martian Manhunter since no one can seem to make J'onn interesting anymore. at least with Reddy they can slide the tired ol' "i'm a man in a machine body" angle in there. (if he doesn't stay in the human bod)

Vixen, if written well, has great potential. don't see it happening yet, though.

Black Lighting i have hopes for, but i don't see him fitting in.
Ditch him, and let Cyborg join...he's a tech guy, which is needed, and the "tank" that Batman wanted. Or Steel....John Irons would be cool...i always thought he was a great JLAer.

Red Arrow has potential if he continues to use tricks other than the bow. he does have an arsenal of weapons (pun included, free of charge) other than arrows to pull from, and it would be stupid to have yet another plain archer running around.

Have Hawkgirl show more skin, and we can keep her :D

[Timberoo]

I don't get the Vixen bitching. She's had what? about 4 total pages of face time? How much character development do you expect to see in such a limited time?

Aside from hanging out with other heroes, does someone like Wonder Woman or Superman need the league to accomplish anything? Not really. He's Superman. Batman doesn't like people anyway, so being there other than just to keep people in line doesn't make a whole lot of sense for him.

[Wright Blan]

I don't see a reason why any of the "Big 3" need to be in it all, honestly.


Uh, so people would actually buy it? DC is susposed to be a business, y'know. Not that you can tell sometimes from their business decisions.

[Timberoo]

Uh, so people would actually buy it? DC is susposed to be a business, y'know. Not that you can tell sometimes from their business decisions.

Silly me, here I thought people liked good comic books and would buy a great JLA title even if Batman wasn't in it. It's not like he's not already in 5 other books.

[Titan Slade]

Silly me, here I thought people liked good comic books and would buy a great JLA title even if Batman wasn't in it. It's not like he's not already in 5 other books.

I would rather the Big 3(Supes, Bats, WW)were not in the JLA, because they are all 3 more boring JLA characters most of the time, compared to the 2nd stringers.

[Wright Blan]

Silly me, here I thought people liked good comic books and would buy a great JLA title even if Batman wasn't in it. It's not like he's not already in 5 other books.


Gee, I wish I could name for you all the times your theory didn't work, but MattB doesn't have the bandwidth. :rolleyes:

[chap22]

Yeah, if you want a really boring JLA. :rolleyes:

Y'know, it's weird, I liked these two when they were younger (just read Showcase Presents: Teen Titans). However, once they grew up they became the dullest characters ever in my eyes. Heck, Dick Grayson is probably the best thing to happen to The Batman (the cartoon) in a long time, but on that show he's still a semi-hyperactive pre-teen sidekick.

whixh is exactly why i think those two need to be in the League. they got "boring" (well, to some readers, apparently) because they pretty much got cast into that youngish-20s limbo where they couldn't be sidekicks anymore but weren't allowed to grow equal to or beyond their mentors because they were understudies to 2 of the "Big 3". they will never replace the big guns, and they themselves were replaced as the young bucks, so they got shunted into a place where they haven't been allowed really even the illusion of character growth. put 'em in the JLA and allow them to grow and thrive like they did in the Wolfman/Perez Titans and show the something special that's at the core of their characters, that spark that's been suppressed by editorial for roughly 15-20 years now, and i guarantee you neither they nor the League would be boring.

[diana_fan]

whixh is exactly why i think those two need to be in the League. they got "boring" (well, to some readers, apparently) because they pretty much got cast into that youngish-20s limbo where they couldn't be sidekicks anymore but weren't allowed to grow equal to or beyond their mentors because they were understudies to 2 of the "Big 3". they will never replace the big guns, and they themselves were replaced as the young bucks, so they got shunted into a place where they haven't been allowed really even the illusion of character growth. put 'em in the JLA and allow them to grow and thrive like they did in the Wolfman/Perez Titans and show the something special that's at the core of their characters, that spark that's been suppressed by editorial for roughly 15-20 years now, and i guarantee you neither they nor the League would be boring.


That's a great analysis. It totally makes sense, and I wouldn't mind them being in the League at all. But I like both characters. They do need a place to grow.

I really think both will play a big role in Countdown though. Along with the other "monitored" characters. I don't really have anything other than a hunch to back this up. But it seems right.

At least Donna will be in this week's Ion. That's been a fun mini, and it seems like it might be leading directly into Countdown.

[AdamYJ]

whixh is exactly why i think those two need to be in the League. they got "boring" (well, to some readers, apparently) because they pretty much got cast into that youngish-20s limbo where they couldn't be sidekicks anymore but weren't allowed to grow equal to or beyond their mentors because they were understudies to 2 of the "Big 3". they will never replace the big guns, and they themselves were replaced as the young bucks, so they got shunted into a place where they haven't been allowed really even the illusion of character growth. put 'em in the JLA and allow them to grow and thrive like they did in the Wolfman/Perez Titans and show the something special that's at the core of their characters, that spark that's been suppressed by editorial for roughly 15-20 years now, and i guarantee you neither they nor the League would be boring.

I should probably note that it wasn't even in the Wolfman and Perez Titans that I got to liking them. I could never really warm up to that series. I know it's supposed to be some '80s masterpiece, but I just can't dig it. I liked them from the "groovy" days. :p It's probably because I didn't have to take them all that seriously. So, convincing me to like them in the current "serious comics" climate might be a little hard.

[diana_fan]

I should probably note that it wasn't even in the Wolfman and Perez Titans that I got to liking them. I could never really warm up to that series. I know it's supposed to be some '80s masterpiece, but I just can't dig it. I liked them from the "groovy" days. :p It's probably because I didn't have to take them all that seriously. So, convincing me to like them in the current "serious comics" climate might be a little hard.

Yeahbuhwhat? :)

[roshambo]

I know it's supposed to be some '80s masterpiece, but I just can't dig it.

same here, bro...

[Timberoo]

I would rather the Big 3(Supes, Bats, WW)were not in the JLA, because they are all 3 more boring JLA characters most of the time, compared to the 2nd stringers.

They will always be second string if they aren't used in a high profile book. I don't see what's so much more interesting about Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman than anyone else.

[Starlord]

I kind of wish that they would put Dick and Donna in the JLA as well. I think Chap has a point about the second generation being squeezed out by the first and third. Or at least give them their own team again.

The characters that I already find myself interested in, in the newest incarnation is not the big three, but Red Tornado, Red Arrow, Black Canary, Vixen, and Black Lightning. The big three? They're alright I guess, but I collect Batman and Superman so I see them enough.

I still say, though, that a JLA without the Martian Manhunter is just incomplete.

[nietoperz]

I still say, though, that a JLA without the Martian Manhunter is just incomplete.

100% agreed!

[Action Ace]

The JLA usually features five members in most of its incarnations: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Flash. Add any other 2-12 heroes from Green Arrow and Black Canary to the Wonder Twins and you've got a JLA.

And, once again, I ask. For those of us who don't consider DCs biggest properties boring and want to see them on an adventure together, which team book should we be reading? Outsiders? Doom Patrol? If you want to avoid the Trinity, read one of DC's other fine team books.

[AdamYJ]

Yeahbuhwhat? :)

You heard me right. I've got but Judas Contract and Terror of Trigon on my bookshelf here and neither really made me a fan. The only character I really liked was Terra and she turned out to be evil in the end. I thought I'd like Changeling and he turned out to be really annoying.

I think on one hand it may have been a bit overhyped and on the other is the fact that it's just hard to get past my upbringing as a '90s fan when anything Titans was just "That book no one likes but people keep bringing back anyway". The Titans have never been an easy sell for me.

[Wright Blan]

They will always be second string if they aren't used in a high profile book. I don't see what's so much more interesting about Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman than anyone else.

Look, the book is susposed to be about The World's Greatest Super-Heroes getting together, not the World's biggest bunch of metahuman scrubs. Heck, there are two or three DC titles like that.

[Wright Blan]

I kind of wish that they would put Dick and Donna in the JLA as well. I think Chap has a point about the second generation being squeezed out by the first and third. Or at least give them their own team again.

The characters that I already find myself interested in, in the newest incarnation is not the big three, but Red Tornado, Red Arrow, Black Canary, Vixen, and Black Lightning. The big three? They're alright I guess, but I collect Batman and Superman so I see them enough.

I still say, though, that a JLA without the Martian Manhunter is just incomplete.

Funny, the JLA did fine without J'onn for the majority of it's first run. I think he was the first booted out of the League by TPTB.

[Jack Burton]

100% agreed!

Damn straight! It's like the Fantastic Four missing any of the four. You can do it but it doesn't mean you should.

[Starlord]

Damn straight! It's like the Fantastic Four missing any of the four. You can do it but it doesn't mean you should.

thank you. That's all I'm saying. If I had to choose, I'd kick out the boy scout and keep J'onn any day. Not that I'd want to lose Supes, just saying.

[Timberoo]

Look, the book is susposed to be about The World's Greatest Super-Heroes getting together, not the World's biggest bunch of metahuman scrubs. Heck, there are two or three DC titles like that.
Wow, your insightful rebuttal has made me question the very foundation of my enjoyment in comics. :rolleyes:

[Dalarsco]

I liked the way they sometimes did it in the Satellite Era. They must have had something like 20 heroes on the roster in their heyday, but that didn't mean all twenty of them were featured in every single adventure, each trying to get one or two good lines of dialogue squeezed in before it was somebody else's turn to steal the spotlight for the next couple of panels!

Ya, I like massive teams that have some leeway as to who is actually involved. Like JSA.

[Wright Blan]

Wow, your insightful rebuttal has made me question the very foundation of my enjoyment in comics. :rolleyes:

Look, smarty, JLoA was started as a "big guns" book with all of DC main SA characters. So it always was intended to feature the bigger stars. That flew by the wayside in the late 80's/early 90's, and sales suffered after a while (notice how the big slide in sales happened after Batman left?).

[AdamYJ]

Look, smarty, JLoA was started as a "big guns" book with all of DC main SA characters. So it always was intended to feature the bigger stars. That flew by the wayside in the late 80's/early 90's, and sales suffered after a while (notice how the big slide in sales happened after Batman left?).

Well, it was mainly just the ones that had their own series or were featured regularly (like J'onn in Detective Comics). The DC Universe was no where near as big as it is now. In fact, I'm not sure Aquaman even had a series when he was put in the JLA. I remember reading somewhere that the Golden Age Aquaman was a favorite of Gardner Fox's, so he got slightly reimagined and put in the League. His series came later. Though, I could be wrong.

[Lorendiac]

Well, it was mainly just the ones that had their own series or were featured regularly (like J'onn in Detective Comics). The DC Universe was no where near as big as it is now. In fact, I'm not sure Aquaman even had a series when he was put in the JLA. I remember reading somewhere that the Golden Age Aquaman was a favorite of Gardner Fox's, so he got slightly reimagined and put in the League. His series came later. Though, I could be wrong.

I just ran a search on comics.org

It says the first Aquaman series began in 1962. Since the first Justice League series began in 1960, I'd say you correctly remember reading that his series came later!

For what it's worth, though, his entry at www.dcuguide.com tells me he was a regular feature in "Adventure Comics" all through the late 50s, so although he didn't have his very own title yet, he wasn't just languishing in obscurity, gone and forgotten, at the time Fox used him as a founding member of the JLA, either! (Much like J'onn in Detective, as you mentioned.)

[Wright Blan]

Well, it was mainly just the ones that had their own series or were featured regularly (like J'onn in Detective Comics). The DC Universe was no where near as big as it is now. In fact, I'm not sure Aquaman even had a series when he was put in the JLA. I remember reading somewhere that the Golden Age Aquaman was a favorite of Gardner Fox's, so he got slightly reimagined and put in the League. His series came later. Though, I could be wrong.

Aquaman appeared in Adventure Comics in the '50's (and I think he appeared in World's Finest, too). The only JLAer who didn't have a regular gig when the team first appeared was Green Lantern.