I'm reading Watchmen and it occurred to me ...

[diana_fan]

It occurred to me that I've never seen an actual issue of the comic. I have seen the TPB. I own and am reading the Absolute Edition.

But I've never seen the actual comic, itself. Going to a place like Mile High Comics, it doesn't look like they are *that* rare. But in all the digging in back bins I've done, I have never seen a single issue of Watchmen.

Is this common? Is it just me, and the stores I've been to?

(BTW: I haven't finished it yet ... so don't spoil the whole thing for me, if you don't mind.:) )

[<sage>]

Yeah I've seen one at one of my lcs' behind a glass cabinet where they hold some other expensive sh!t.

I love it at the end when....... :p

[Pezmack]

I've seen all twelve issues in one place before...but that's mainly because they are bagged and boarded and stored away in one of my boxes. :D

[Drink]

Well, it's not surprising, really. As already said, if they're at the LCS, they're probably safely tucked behind the counter or behind glass, and probably have a hefty price tag to them. As nice as it'd be to have the issues, or even just see them, the trade works for me.

[BillReed]

I can't remember if I have, either.

Anyway, enjoy. And when you finish it, read it again. Better the second time.

[cncoyle]

(BTW: I haven't finished it yet ... so don't spoil the whole thing for me, if you don't mind.:) )What do you think of it so far?

It would be interesting to hear your perspective, reading it for the first time at an older, more mature age (you're in your 30's, right?). I read it when I was a teenager in the early 90's and liked it, but I don't think I've read it since then. Maybe I should...

[Kal*el]

I've seen issues all over the place, but I don't think I've ever seen all of them. I probably have never seen either 11 or 12.

[GumChewerLad]

When I was looking through my dad's collection of comics from the 80's, I saw quite a few of the original Watchmen issues, along with all of V for Vendetta, and thinking he might be able to make some money off of it, I went online to check the prices. Like, $3 each :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: so I can't imagine they're all that rare if that's what you can get them for online.

[bebopeva88]

I have never seen all (or even many) of the original issuse in a store. I own all of the originals (and the Absolute), but I got them on ebay awhile back.

The Watchmen issues aren't that rare, but they can still fetch a nice price if you have a set in nm condition.

[The Spirit]

My lcs has some of them and #1 is like $5.

[diana_fan]

What do you think of it so far?

It would be interesting to hear your perspective, reading it for the first time at an older, more mature age (you're in your 30's, right?). I read it when I was a teenager in the early 90's and liked it, but I don't think I've read it since then. Maybe I should...

Well, I've only finished Chapter IV. The first thing that struck me is how much is going on. There's the mystery in the present, the different stories from the Minutemen days, the Pirate comic, the excerpts from the various books, including Hollis Mason's, etc. It's very dense. There is an entire political backdrop. There's just a LOT happening.

The characters are incredibly fleshed-out and thought-out. And it seems like every little detail, whether it's just some line by the kid reading the Pirate comic, or a sign in the background, is important. Actually, when the kid gets mad that story didn't conclude in the first issue of the Pirate comic and felt ripped off, I laughed out loud. Some things never change, eh?

It's a very adult story, in the sense that the characters deal with adult problems, and the ideas seem to be mature. I love how Sally Jupiter is flattered by the Tijuana bible sent her, which features her in her super-hero days, while her daughter is mortified. I'm 38, and I can understand the concept behind that scene.

I'm really enjoying it. I can see it breaking down the medium, and the lines of the different stories crossing, but when it's all said and done, so far I'm just looking forward to each new page. It's just so well-written, and so well-drawn. It's an amazng collaboration.

[cncoyle]

Cool, thanks for that, df. I remember getting annoyed by the pirate stuff, but again, I was just a teen when I read it.

I was in a similar situation for Superfolks that you're currently in on Watchmen (reading it for the first time at an older age). I just read it last year and was greatly underimpressed, but probably because I had read dozens of superhero-deconstruction works that was inspired by that very book.

I'm wondering if Watchmen has the same effect.

[KoozyK]

i see them all the time at shows/cons in $1 bins. i got about half the serire sin random issues for under $10. just keep your eyes peeled.

[guitargod694]

Cool, thanks for that, df. I remember getting annoyed by the pirate stuff, but again, I was just a teen when I read it.

I was in a similar situation for Superfolks that you're currently in on Watchmen (reading it for the first time at an older age). I just read it last year and was greatly underimpressed, but probably because I had read dozens of superhero-deconstruction works that was inspired by that very book.

I'm wondering if Watchmen has the same effect.


I actually just read Watchmen for the first time about 6 weeks ago. I thought it was pretty amazing. I mean, I feel like I need to read it at least two more times to fully "get" it, but it was very well put together. I think if you read it again, you'll find you like the pirate stuff. The way it's placed in there as parallels to the main story really drive home a lot of the themes.

[epowe10097]

I remember reading Watchmen for the first time in the late-ish 80s and simply being blown away. Now this was after being blown away by Moore's Swamp Thing and before being blown away by his Miracleman and V for Vendetta. :) But in any even, if any of you have not sat down (and boy you need to set aside the time with the indexes in the back) and read From Hell, do yourself a favor and do so. Brilliant. Eddie

[samnoir]

I see individual issues all the time in discount bins.

I think that there were so many issues printed towards the end of the series as word of mouth spread, and most people own the trade.

Remember, they didn't know back then that the thing was going to be collected as trades forever and ever.
___________________________________

NEIL GAIMAN and DAVE MCKEAN BOOKS for sale on EBAY! SWEENEY TODD! (http://stores.ebay.com/HOUSE-OF-FUN)

FRANK CHO RARE SIGNED LTD ED. BOOK and MAGAZINE for sale on EBAY! SHANNA UNCENSORED ARTWORK! SKETCHES. (http://stores.ebay.com/HOUSE-OF-FUN)
___________________________________

[Floyd Lawton]

Ive found every issue for a dollar a piece. Except #1. Still looking for that.

[WickyWacky]

Enjoy the book for the contents, cause you sure aren't going to make any money owning the originals - Watchmen #1 on Ebay for $1.80 if you hurry...

[furioso2012]

I still have my originals. They're nice to have but not essential obviously.

This was SUCH a huge deal for me when it came out. Once a month (hah!) like clockwork (OK, there was one small delay or maybe two), the next chapter of WATCHMEN came out. I've looked FWD to New Comics Day every week for a very long time, but the anticipation I felt for the book was fairly unique. The only other book I loved this much was PROMETHEA and that had a nutty schedule. (Oh, forgot about SANDMAN and INVISIBLES too).

The TPB still sells well. It was in the Top Ten for the year, along with V for Vendetta. I hope that Zac "300" Snyder can pull his adaptation off with some degree of aplomb, but have learned not to have any expectations for adaptations until the day they come out.

[Supreme Convoy]

I think I've seen a few of the individual issues at a comic shop, but not recently.

Enjoy the book!

[Punchy]

I've never seen any actual issues either.

[Zig Zag Wanderer]

I see a few now and again at shows.

[Hoffmeister]

The only place I've seen the issues (save for in my collection and in the box they arrived in when I ordered them) was at a comic-show in London in 2005. Not all issues though, just mostly.

[NeoSamurai]

It's because the story is readily availabe and easy to acquire. However, once the movie hits, expect those issues to skyrocket like a mofo.

[Hoffmeister]

For about a month.

[guitargod694]

Maybe. Probably not.

More like expect trade sales to increase a bit.

[Vic Vega]

It occurred to me that I've never seen an actual issue of the comic. I have seen the TPB. I own and am reading the Absolute Edition.

But I've never seen the actual comic, itself. Going to a place like Mile High Comics, it doesn't look like they are *that* rare. But in all the digging in back bins I've done, I have never seen a single issue of Watchmen.

Is this common? Is it just me, and the stores I've been to?

(BTW: I haven't finished it yet ... so don't spoil the whole thing for me, if you don't mind.:) )

I bought them in my LCS when they were originlly released. I imagine that few of them found thier way back into the resale market.

Pity that, I think it reads slightly better in the monthly form as it was designed to.

I hope you enjoy the rest of it.

[jimbo887]

I've never seen an issue of Watchmen either, but I've never looked. So I thought I'd do a bit of investigating and found this (http://cgi.ebay.com/PERSONAL-COLLECTION-THE-WATCHMEN-COMPLETE-1-12_W0QQitemZ270090321650QQihZ017QQcatego ryZ35764QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie wItem). That's pretty tempting but I think that that price will jump quite a bit before this auction ends. I'll see if my LCS has any copies when I get there.

[Hoffmeister]

Something I've been wondering about the issues - are there "forgeries" reprints of them in circulation? They seem so common on Ebay at times that I'm wondering if someone has reprinted the issues themselves in order to make money. I got especially curious of this when I got my lot of books and read them through and saw that in many books the chapter names and that quotes at the end of the books are missing. Was it like that when they originally came out?

[nolanjwerner]

I bought them in my LCS when they were originlly released. I imagine that few of them found thier way back into the resale market.

Pity that, I think it reads slightly better in the monthly form as it was designed to.

I hope you enjoy the rest of it.

How is that? Does the thick spine affect the story?

[CapnSpandex]

Oh, wow. For a second, I thought you were going to say "I was reading Watchmen and it occured to me... that Dave Gibbons ripped off Moebius' art style in that book, and he's a visual plagiarist."

[nolanjwerner]

Oh, wow. For a second, I thought you were going to say "I was reading Watchmen and it occured to me... that Dave Gibbons ripped off Moebius' art style in that book, and he's a visual plagiarist."

Everybody rips off Moebius.

Thats how influential he is.

Almost all modern comic art was influenced in a huge degree by Kirby, Tezuka, Herge, moebius, Eisner, Adams, or Steranko.

I honestly can't think of any mainstream artists right now (but I'm not really trying) without some stylistic influence back to one of them.

[CapnSpandex]

I see what you mean, but it just seems more blatant because before-hand, his art style had been more Brian Bolland-ish... like his 2000AD stuff. And for that story alone, he just totally seemed to be ripping panels off from The Incal and Airtight Garage.

[Vic Vega]

How is that? Does the thick spine affect the story?

At the time I felt the cliffhangers at the end of the story built up an impending sense of dread. If you just turn the page to continue the story you lose some of the effect.

Moore was consious of writing in an episodic form. Everything in that book's design is well thought out.

[diana_fan]

OK, it took me forever to finish this, because I was interrupted with other trades, works, what-have-you. Anyway ...

You have to be kidding me. OK, I started on comics late, in my mid-thirties. A few years of reading tons of stuff, trying desperately to catch up, grabbing trade after trade, Absolute after Absolute Edition. I would always read comments from people about Watchmen, and I generally didn't read too much of those posts, because I didn't want it ruined. I knew I would read it one day. I knew it was considered an epic work.

So, finally, tonight, I finished it. WOW! You know, very rarely in life does something actually "live up to the hype." And in comic book circles, what could have *more* hype than Watchmen?! But, somehow, it not only lived up to the hype, it surpassed it ... in spades.

I cannot even begin to imagine what people in 1986-87 were thinking while they read this. I'd be fascinated to hear from people who read it as it came out. I mean ... I haven't read much from that period of time, but damn: not much of it can be even close to Watchmen. I'm reading it 20 years after it closed, and am completely blown away by it.

This has to be the most deeply layered work I've read in this medium. One reading is not nearly enough. I know I have to read it about two, three, or four more times. But this was just amazing. It's something SO Byzantine. There's just such depths to plumb in this work.

Moore and Gibbons somehow managed to make a story which included tiny little character moments, as well as huge meta-commentary arcs. It had it all: action, mystery, political commentary, a meta-textual look at comic books as a medium, great personal developments with the characters, a tidy story, and an ending which ... well, which has as many questions as answers (in my opinion).

In the last week, I have finished both Watchmen and The Invisibles, and both, in different (but somewhat similar) ways, absolutely blew my mind.

All of Watchmen needs to be re-read over and over again. I can't believe how hard a reading I gave it, and I still need to go over it. There were like at least five distinct layers to the story, and probably more.

Anyhow, I just needed to rant and rave conscering this work of genius. Wow. Really, wow.

[nolanjwerner]

At the time I felt the cliffhangers at the end of the story built up an impending sense of dread. If you just turn the page to continue the story you lose some of the effect.

Moore was consious of writing in an episodic form. Everything in that book's design is well thought out.

Actually, you kind of have a point.

I nver read it outside of the trade form so I missed that.

However, I think that the sense of dread you are talking about is there from the first few pages.

[Dav G]

I cannot even begin to imagine what people in 1986-87 were thinking while they read this. I'd be fascinated to hear from people who read it as it came out.Watchmen was a trip to read in single issues. It had a sense of foreboding, even moreso than Moore's Swamp Thing did. A lot of Moore's work in that era (V, Watchmen, Swamp Thing) evoke the fear of the atomic bomb. It's an ominous dread that each story left you with - like the skies were just getting darker and darker. If you're mid/late 30s, you remember the cold war,and how scary it really was (much moreso than post 9/11).

In 1987 I was 16. I was a major Alan Moore fan. Still am. His Swamp Thing changed comics forever - it was the first mainstream comic to really dive into mature themes and subject matter. Politics, religion, horror, love, the afterlife, etc. And from a nuts / bolts perspective, lots of literary aspirations began showing up in his work - symbolism, lyricism, psychedelia, etc.

Watchmen was an extension of what he was doing with Swamp Thing, with some bold new touches. But it was coming on the heels of not only his Swamp Thing, but like 3 or 4 other huge stories: Dark Knight Returns was just done, Crisis had ended, Batman Year One Was going on, and another groundbreaking story - Moonshadow - was being published by Epic.

I mean ... I haven't read much from that period of time, but damn: not much of it can be even close to Watchmen.Maus eclipses Watchmen in my book. So does Moonshadow. So does Swamp Thing. All from the same time period.

Those stories pushed the envelope of storytelling (and sophistocation) in their own ways. Watchmen is the most well-regarded in comic circles - not just because it's wonderful, but I think to an extent because it's about superheroes. Whereas Maus and Moonshadow aren't about capes. But they're just as important in my book. Maus is arguably the most renowned comic ever - especially since it's the only comic to ever be rewarded with a Pulitzer Prize.

Looking back...the mid-1980s was a real golden age of comics. To be honest, at that time I was trying to get the hell out of comics after DC mucked about with their Crisis. But stuff like Moore's Swamp Thing, Grell's Jon Sable, Moonshadow, Batman Year One, Nexus, Watchmen and V For Vendetta kept me invested. But once Watchmen and V ended, Moore left DC. I knew an era was over. I stopped reading comics - cold - until 10 years later.

And you know what I missed in that ten years? Zero Hour. It is but to laugh.

[greenman]

There IS a reason Watchmen is the only graphic novel on Time's list of best novels of the 20th century. It IS that good. It IS that profound. The thing is, its a bit dated, relying heavily on cold war era assumptions about human motivations. And in the end, I might put parts of Sandman in front of it for timelessness. But yeah.... you really have to be in awe of what was done on Watchmen.

[nolanjwerner]

There IS a reason Watchmen is the only graphic novel on Time's list of best novels of the 20th century. It IS that good. It IS that profound. The thing is, its a bit dated, relying heavily on cold war era assumptions about human motivations. And in the end, I might put parts of Sandman in front of it for timelessness. But yeah.... you really have to be in awe of what was done on Watchmen.

See, Ill disagree with you on the Cold War context being dated.

There is enough variance from the "real" Cold War that it didn't necessarily have to draw on it any more then a period film need draw on Ancient Rome. It drew more from the paranoia and less from the actual politics.

[Allen Jaco]

There IS a reason Watchmen is the only graphic novel on Time's list of best novels of the 20th century. It IS that good. It IS that profound. The thing is, its a bit dated, relying heavily on cold war era assumptions about human motivations. And in the end, I might put parts of Sandman in front of it for timelessness. But yeah.... you really have to be in awe of what was done on Watchmen.

Personally, I thought it was vastly overrated, and what has convinced me that super hero stories never could be "art" and should just be appreciated for great entertainment.

:shrug:

[nietoperz]

I used to own the complete run of individual issues, until my collection got pulped in a flood. Needless to say it was one of the first things I replaced in trade form, but I still miss my originals...

[stiltman6969]

Personally, I thought it was vastly overrated, and what has convinced me that super hero stories never could be "art" and should just be appreciated for great entertainment.

:shrug:

if you don't mind me asking... could you elaborate why exactly? what did you see as it's real failing point?

[nolanjwerner]

Personally, I thought it was vastly overrated, and what has convinced me that super hero stories never could be "art" and should just be appreciated for great entertainment.

:shrug:

I'm curious exactly what the line between entertainment and art is.

[Allen Jaco]

I'm curious exactly what the line between entertainment and art is.

Something that is truly meaningful to the culture at large, and not just a subsection of it. I didn't see that in Watchmen.

[nolanjwerner]

Something that is truly meaningful to the culture at large, and not just a subsection of it. I didn't see that in Watchmen.

So its a definition where "art" is ascribed from the majority voice of the culture as to what effects it on a large scale?

Can this be ascribed in a contemporary context or does it have to be in retrospect?

How can I know what will be the most meaningful thing to my culture right now? Frankly, this culture is still sorting out what the most meaningful things from twenty years ago were.

[Allen Jaco]

So its a definition where "art" is ascribed from the majority voice of the culture as to what effects it on a large scale?

Can this be ascribed in a contemporary context or does it have to be in retrospect?

How can I know what will be the most meaningful thing to my culture right now? Frankly, this culture is still sorting out what the most meaningful things from twenty years ago were.

I think we've had this discussion before.

For one thing, it must infuse themes that are current within the culture. Secondly, it must transcend it's genre. Secondly, it must show some actual skill in its composition. Splashing a bucket of paint on a blank canvas and calling it "anger" is not art, in my opinion. Putting a picture of the Virgin Mary in a bucket of urine isn't art. It has to say something about society and culture at large. It has to say something that is both timeless and current at the same time. And it must reach an audience beyond those simply reading comic books. Watchmen is simply not known beyond a small core group. It is not a part of serious cultural discourse outside of comic book fans.

To me Watchmen did not "transcend" superhero comics. It was a superhero comic written by a guy with a knowledge of some philosophy and politics. But at the end it was still a superhero comic. I got nothing from it about the "human condition." There is nothing in it that hasn't been done more skilfully before.

Most things that are recognized as art when it is produced maintain that definition. Rubens was a more popular painter than Guido Reni in his lifetime. And that persists today. And yes, to a certain extent what is art is something that is determined in retrospect. I don't think Watchmen will stand the test of time.

[nolanjwerner]

I think we've had this discussion before.

For one thing, it must infuse themes that are current within the culture. Secondly, it must transcend it's genre. Secondly, it must show some actual skill in its composition. Splashing a bucket of paint on a blank canvas and calling it "anger" is not art, in my opinion. Putting a picture of the Virgin Mary in a bucket of urine isn't art. It has to say something about society and culture at large. It has to say something that is both timeless and current at the same time. And it must reach an audience beyond those simply reading comic books. Watchmen is simply not known beyond a small core group. It is not a part of serious cultural discourse outside of comic book fans.

To me Watchmen did not "transcend" superhero comics. It was a superhero comic written by a guy with a knowledge of some philosophy and politics. But at the end it was still a superhero comic. I got nothing from it about the "human condition." There is nothing in it that hasn't been done more skilfully before.

Most things that are recognized as art when it is produced maintain that definition. Rubens was a more popular painter than Guido Reni in his lifetime. And that persists today. And yes, to a certain extent what is art is something that is determined in retrospect. I don't think Watchmen will stand the test of time.

Actually, wouldn't that be thirdly?

1. It must infuse themes that are current within the culture.
2. It must transcend it's genre.
3. Secondly, it must show some actual skill in its composition.

Since there was already a number two.

4. It has to say something about society and culture at large.
5. It has to say something that is both timeless and current at the same time.
6. And it must reach an audience beyond those simply reading comic books.

Those are the things I numbered in terms of your points about art.

You still didn't answer my question about the definition being ascribed from the viewpoint of a social majority.

And, honestly, what kind of frame will we be talking about for retrospect? Ten years? Twenty years? A hundred years?

[md62]

Watchmen was a great moment in comics. That & The Dark Knight changed how comics were viewed. I had the original issues but sold them back in 1991(to buy a house - I sold my whole collection). Back then they were worth more than today!

[genetic freak]

I think we've had this discussion before.

For one thing, it must infuse themes that are current within the culture. Secondly, it must transcend it's genre. Secondly, it must show some actual skill in its composition. Splashing a bucket of paint on a blank canvas and calling it "anger" is not art, in my opinion. Putting a picture of the Virgin Mary in a bucket of urine isn't art. It has to say something about society and culture at large. It has to say something that is both timeless and current at the same time. And it must reach an audience beyond those simply reading comic books. Watchmen is simply not known beyond a small core group. It is not a part of serious cultural discourse outside of comic book fans.

To me Watchmen did not "transcend" superhero comics. It was a superhero comic written by a guy with a knowledge of some philosophy and politics. But at the end it was still a superhero comic. I got nothing from it about the "human condition." There is nothing in it that hasn't been done more skilfully before.

Most things that are recognized as art when it is produced maintain that definition. Rubens was a more popular painter than Guido Reni in his lifetime. And that persists today. And yes, to a certain extent what is art is something that is determined in retrospect. I don't think Watchmen will stand the test of time.
I dont know. I abhor relating artistic integrity or any aspect of it to the size of an audience. Art must speak about the human condition and be timeless, I agree, to be current no. That is just your opinion. Timelesness alone trancends currency.

I'm not defending Watchmen, mind you, however transcedence of a genre is not a qualifier of art. A great move in entertainment perhaps, a structuralist achievement, yes but never a qualifier of art.

I'm sorry but it is a pet peeve of mine when people puts a qualifier on what art is and not to their own subjective taste. Yes art is subjective, but no single taste by either a group or an individual determines which is and isn't art.

Saying that art cannot appeal to a sub-culture, is counter intuitive to the purpose of art and progress. It is art that is one of the defining aspects of a culture, not the other way around. Rarely do I agree with the modern academia, but your approach with your posts are what can be considered "eclecticism" for which more than a number of faults has been clearly established is inherent within it.

As for Watchmen, I can defend it as a work of art, though possibly not as high in the pantheon (or if it even does reach it) both as a superhero or not piece of work; utilizing different schools of thought in visual art and lit criticism. I'm holding it off for now asto not bore the others, unless you are interested.

I do hope you understand why I was inclined to post this, nothing personal, like I've said this is just a pet peeve of mine.

[nolanjwerner]

AJ, how large does somehting have to be to qualify as a subculture?

Or would that be anything that isn't the largest segment of the culture? And how is the largest segment defined?

[chap22]

Watchmen very well may be technically a work of "art".

all i know is, i didn't like it. and therefore gave my trade away as a Secret Santa gift two Christmases ago. but i do realize, around here, that puts me in a small minority.

[cncoyle]

Watchmen very well may be technically a work of "art".

all i know is, i didn't like it. and therefore gave my trade away as a Secret Santa gift two Christmases ago. but i do realize, around here, that puts me in a small minority.I admit I need to re-read it to justify my current opinion, but I'm in a similar boat as you. I *appreciate* it, but I don't know that I enjoy it. I didn't like the Comedian rape scene, but then again, I doubt anyone normal "enjoys" that scene. And I could do without the Night Owl pre-Viagara couch scene, too.

But maybe when I re-read it, I'll "get" the pirate stuff. (Just dragged on for me, back in the day.)

[chap22]

I admit I need to re-read it to justify my current opinion, but I'm in a similar boat as you. I *appreciate* it, but I don't know that I enjoy it. I didn't like the Comedian rape scene, but then again, I doubt anyone normal "enjoys" that scene. And I could do without the Night Owl pre-Viagara couch scene, too.

But maybe when I re-read it, I'll "get" the pirate stuff. (Just dragged on for me, back in the day.)

see, that's just the thing. i don't need to re-read. i slogged through it once, and upon finishing i never want to re-read it. i appreciate the craft, i do. i appreciate the technical skill that is obvious on every page. but it absolutely bored me TO DEATH.

[MoneyMelon]

see, that's just the thing. i don't need to re-read. i slogged through it once, and upon finishing i never want to re-read it. i appreciate the craft, i do. i appreciate the technical skill that is obvious on every page. but it absolutely bored me TO DEATH.
Mosty of the time, I read your posts and think "Chap has pretty much the exact same tastes in comics that I do! Cool!"












And sometimes I read your posts and it's like I don't even know you. :(

[BillReed]

see, that's just the thing. i don't need to re-read. i slogged through it once, and upon finishing i never want to re-read it. i appreciate the craft, i do. i appreciate the technical skill that is obvious on every page. but it absolutely bored me TO DEATH.

I didn't love it until I read it the second time.

[genetic freak]

see, that's just the thing. i don't need to re-read. i slogged through it once, and upon finishing i never want to re-read it. i appreciate the craft, i do. i appreciate the technical skill that is obvious on every page. but it absolutely bored me TO DEATH.
Your face absolutely bored me TO DEATH! :p

Actually, I know many people who share your opinions until they read it a second time around.

[cncoyle]

I vote that the new catchphrase is ending a sentence with "TO DEATH".

I enjoy this sandwich, and now it's time for a candy bar TO DEATH.

Is there a cooler character than Nightwing TO DEATH?

[chap22]

meh, i can't help it. i just didn't enjoy reading it at all.

TO DEATH.


;) :D

[nolanjwerner]

it takes a couple reads.

[dethmtlmetro]

I've had issue number three since I was a kid and I'd order comics from that mail-order magazine that was real popular back in the early nineties. It came free with one of my orders, and I tried to read it and couldn't understand what was going on, and I didn't like the art. Never understood why it was so acclaimed till years later when I bought and read the TPB. Watchmen is now my favorite series ever.

[chap22]

it takes a couple reads.
to which i say horse-feathers.

it may take a couple of reads to catch every little nuance, every theme, every artistic trick, how everything ties together, yadda yadda. (and i say "may" -- someone trained to read critically can pretty well pick all that up on the first try IF they choose to read it that way)

but it should only take one read to determine whether or not you actually like the story itself. and truthfully, the story's not bad, i just felt it got incredibly watered down by Moore using all those tricks and bells & whistles for which the series gets so lauded, and the book gets incredibly overrated for the tricks when the story itself is pretty average. not bad, just not TEH GREATEST EVAH either.

truthfully, i don't read comics (or even novels, for that matter) to find out just how smart a writer is. i read them to be told an entertaining story. and generally when i uncover a writer trying to prove how smart or visionary or technically revolutionary he is, it IMMEDIATELY takes away from my enjoyment of the tale he's trying to tell.

i guess it's like this. V For Vendetta felt to me like Moore's main goal was telling that story, and i greatly enjoyed it. Watchmen to me felt more like a self-fellating example of Moore showing us just how much smarter than any other comics writer alive he was (which i'm not saying isn't true, mind you...) and he just happened to wrap this story inside that.


which may very well ABSOLUTELY not be the case, it's just how it felt to me when i read it.

[nietoperz]

I love Watchmen, but Chap has a point. Moore did develop a tendency to over-egg the pudding around that time, one that hasn't entirely left him to this day. V is a much more satisfying read, certainly (though again, I love Watchmen).

[Garth Rockett]

There may be more people like me than I thought! I also find Watchmen to be incredibly overrated. Unlike chap, I wasn't bored by it at all. I was absolutely riveted for the first 11 chapters, but I hated the twelth chapter. The final issue fell completely flat. After the pains Moore had gone to in order to establish a sense of "realism" (such as can be in a story with a character like Dr. Manhattan) the sight of the alien at the very beginning of that issue seemed completely out of context to me. It sucked me right out of the story, and made the conflicts between the characters (which had, to that point, been very compelling) seem a bit silly to me. Even in the context of the other fantastic elements in the story, that particular bit robbed the story of its verisimilitude as far as I was concerned.

[Darth Presley]

WATCHMEN is like a superhero comics equivalent to MOBY-DICK.

That isn't always gonna be a good thing, and not everyone is going to like it, but it is ambitious thing, an envelope-pushing thing, a landmark and something that had a major and still resounding impact on superhero comics.

[G-Man12]

I've seen all but issue 1 at my local Krypton Comics

[michaelman9]

What do you think of it so far?

It would be interesting to hear your perspective, reading it for the first time at an older, more mature age (you're in your 30's, right?). I read it when I was a teenager in the early 90's and liked it, but I don't think I've read it since then. Maybe I should...

I'm reading it for the first time myself (i'm about to start issue 10 or 11 where they go to the snow) and I find it brilliant. People keep asking me what it's about, and it's really hard to explain. I am reading it slowly because it is honestly too deep to fly through.

[carl kolchak]

to which i say horse-feathers.

it may take a couple of reads to catch every little nuance, every theme, every artistic trick, how everything ties together, yadda yadda. (and i say "may" -- someone trained to read critically can pretty well pick all that up on the first try IF they choose to read it that way)

but it should only take one read to determine whether or not you actually like the story itself. and truthfully, the story's not bad, i just felt it got incredibly watered down by Moore using all those tricks and bells & whistles for which the series gets so lauded, and the book gets incredibly overrated for the tricks when the story itself is pretty average. not bad, just not TEH GREATEST EVAH either.

truthfully, i don't read comics (or even novels, for that matter) to find out just how smart a writer is. i read them to be told an entertaining story. and generally when i uncover a writer trying to prove how smart or visionary or technically revolutionary he is, it IMMEDIATELY takes away from my enjoyment of the tale he's trying to tell.

i guess it's like this. V For Vendetta felt to me like Moore's main goal was telling that story, and i greatly enjoyed it. Watchmen to me felt more like a self-fellating example of Moore showing us just how much smarter than any other comics writer alive he was (which i'm not saying isn't true, mind you...) and he just happened to wrap this story inside that.


which may very well ABSOLUTELY not be the case, it's just how it felt to me when i read it.


I'm strictly in the "It's a classic" camp, but there is something in what you say. The technique is very much a part of the story, particularly how the bottom panel on one page leads to a bottom panel in another. Showy certainly, but it also opened up new possibilities in storytelling (This is where you're gonna hate me) that actually had been done before in De Matteis' Moonshadow and some of Eisner's stuff. I like the core story, found the dialogue solid and just went nuts over the Rohrsbach (sp?) character at the time. I still feel that the technique helped to tell a story that NEEDED to move back and forth in time. It has its weaknesses. It's clearly padded toward the end and the pirate story IS pretentious.

Part of the problem is that, like Citizen Kane, it has become the benchmark of all that is good in comics. It's been scrutinized to death and compared against everything. Many hot new books are being labelled "The Next Watchmen".....ironically, I visted a shop that called Civil War the next Watchmen....but that's another story....a very frightening story. To finish, I think that much of the derision that the book has received is a backlash from the loftiness of that benchmark.

I do admit now that though I admire it, I prefer V for Vendetta, From Hell and even some of the ABC stuff. They're more direct as you say. And I'd argue that their stories are more engaging. To me, it's still a great work. Just some people love it and some don't.

[nolanjwerner]

there are stories i like more

but watchmen is more influential then most of them will ever be

except we3, i think theres potential there

[chap22]

except we3, i think theres potential there
everybody here raise your hand who didn't see THAT coming...:rolleyes:

:p ;) :D