CHILDHOOD'S END: PAD ON THE END OF YOUNG JUSTICE

[MattBrady]

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/YJCv53.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/YJCv53_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" align="right" border="0" alt="Young Justice #53"></a>by Alex Segura Jr.

After DC's <a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000042" target="_blank"> announcement</a> of a new Teen Titans title featuring many of the characters from Young Justice, it didn't take long for fans to put two and two together and realize where the title was heading.

With a new, “Wolfman-Perez feel” Teen Titans cartoon in the works and a desire to boost sales on the lagging property, DC has moved some creators, changed some titles and reshuffled their younger heroes around. The odd man out?

Young Justice.

Newsarama sat down with writer Peter David to talk about the news, why Young Justice didn't need no stinkin' mission statement and his future plans. Despite the recent news of Young Justice’s cancellation and the creation of a new Teen Titans title with many of the same characters, David has been aware of the impending cancellation for quite some time.

"I knew about it several months ago," David noted. "I've never quite understood when various creators go on websites and announce their books being cancelled, especially if the title is coming out for some months beyond that. Why torpedo interest? My object is to get people to read my stories. If I announce a book's cancellation prematurely, it might prompt retailers immediately to cut orders, so that fans can't find the book even if they want to."

Given the lead time, David has definite plans as to how the series will end, and which plot lines will be resolved.

”Young Justice wraps with #55," David said. "In a way, it suits the 'novel' style in which I often write because, knowing the 'novel' was coming to an end, I could write it without concern as to what the next issue would be about. The main subplot that's been percolating for several years is Secret's wrestling with her fundamental nature, and her emotional seduction by Darkseid. That's what's coming to a head with the next few issues. By the time #55 is over, all plotlines are wrapped up...except one. It's not major, but it's there in the background if you think about it. Might as well leave myself something to play with, just in case.

"In essence, what brings everything to a boil is Secret's learning that her father is going to be executed by the state for his killing of his adoptive son," David explains, “who Secret knows to have been the villainous Harm. She goes to her Young Justice teammates in hopes that one of them will aid her in busting her father out of jail. They all say no, because they're not about to contravene the judicial system. It's unique teen logic. Invading a country, that they'll do. But saving a guilty and convicted man from the electric chair, that's not a line they want to cross. So they all turn her down...except Slo-Bo, who aids her in springing her father. Hilarity then ensues when Young Justice learns of this and insists he has to go back."

The series' end aside, and while logic might suggest David would be the ideal person to write Teen Titans, seeing as how most of the characters are part of Young Justice, he was not approached to carry on the young heroes' adventures. "No," David said. "My assumption is that only Marvel is insane enough to relaunch a title with the same writer."

While not given as a reason by DC for the character shuffle and subsequent cancellation of Young Justice, David said the change is clearly something that spins out of the announcement of a new Teen Titans animated series in development with Cartoon Network. Looking at it in a detached manner, David said the move, which will tie a mainstream DCU book in with an animated series, without the creation of a special animated “tie-in” series – a first for DC - is understandable.

"People are asking why they don't just do a Teen Titans Adventures in the animated style, a la Batman,” David said. “My assumption is that they figure they can get better sales with a mainstream title carrying the Teen Titans banner and an approximation of the animated series cast rather than having a marginalized Teen Titans Adventures book that's separate. I can understand why the move was made. Obviously it impacts on me greatly, considering it's my bestselling title and I've grown fond of the characters.

"Previously, I was even more upset, because I'd done work on the animated series and believed that my work had gotten the series green lit...meaning that I'd effectively screwed myself. I've since learned that it was a very revised bible by someone else that actually got the animated series up and running, so I guess I can take some cold comfort in that."

The green light for the animated series of course, was also the death knell for Young Justice. "Naturally, my perception is that it was a convenient time to scuttle the current Titans in favor of a new Titans book with the Young Justice characters," David said. "Presumably the Titans writer would see it a different way."

Young Justice, though always presented as not a Teen Titans book, was often cited by fans as being the closest to what made the older series great. Now, with the regular Titans series ending, the shift will take place, but with a new creative team. This leaves the question, is Peter David bitter? The scribe says no.

"I'm not bitter because it's a business," David explains. "It was a business decision. It's not one I agree with, and it impacts on me and the fans directly. But it's not as if Paul Levitz, Mike Carlin and Dan Didio got together and said, 'You know...Peter David's getting too popular. We must find a way to bitch slap him into shape. Hey! Let's cancel Young Justice!'

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/YJCv54.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/YJCv54_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" align="left" border="0" alt="Young Justice #54"></a>"I think ultimately the book itself never got a ton of respect from people who never even bothered to sample it. I also did my best to try and vary the tone, and that attracted some people while being off-putting to others. I'd do the series light for a while, then go dark. I'd do a series of one-off issues, followed by a lengthy story arc. For a while I even experimented with concluding storylines in mid-issue and then launching into a new one. Anything to keep the book fresh creatively...at least, to me. I suppose I'm vain enough to think that if I keep it interesting to me, it'll be interesting to others."

And while he was keeping it interesting to himself, some readers expected the teen team to announce a purpose or missions statement, which wasn't needed, David said. "A lot of people never really "got" the team. They'd say, 'Well, why do these young heroes hang out together?' And I stubbornly refused to give them a mission statement, because to me, it was an absurd question. Why do any group of teens hang out together? Because they like each other. To me, it's no more complicated than that. But, just for shits and giggles, in #55 I have Robin address that question directly in a fairly cool speech to a totally gone-bad Secret. It's one of the more dramatic moments, I think."

With both Superboy and Impulse getting cancelled prior to the axe falling on Young Justice, David was looking forward to having the chance to have exclusive control over the characters. With the cancellation of Young Justice, that won't be possible. Still, David is hesitant to reveal what his plans were.

"I don't generally like to go into detail with 'here's what I was going to do,'" David said. "Because then if the writers, two years down the line, go in that direction, fans immediately shout, 'Hey! They're ripping Peter David off!' I saw that happen with Aquaman, when I discussed that I was going to kill him off, keep him dead, and then return him as a water elemental. So DC killed off Aquaman, kept him dead, and the instant fans saw the big watery version of Aquaman, the 'Rip-off!' charges started, justified or no. So I think I'm going to steer clear of such things from now on."

The title's final issues will focus on the Secret storyline that started in issue #51 when the vaporous Secret was shot and began going through some serious changes.

"The storyline is combined with a storyline in which the DC equivalent of MTV talks Young Justice into being the centerpiece of a new reality series. They'd be the superhero equivalent of the Osbournes. I just try to give the series a real-world sensibility, and it seemed a logical storyline to explore, given the cult of celebrity in this country. I wound up having to truncate it a bit, considering the end of the series, but I think it still works."

One slight monkey wrench in the final storyline though, concerns Robin. Hey – when your mentor is supposed to be an urban legend, showing up on television isn’t a good idea.

"The biggest problem was always Robin," David said. "Considering the whole 'urban legend' thing. Given the reality series storyline, ‘Robin' couldn't be part of such an endeavor. But having just returned to the group, he has no desire to bolt on them again. So he creates a new identity for himself, which should be kind of fun. Part of it stems from when I was a fan, getting a huge kick out of Matt Murdock creating his swinging twin brother, Mike. I decided to do something like that with Robin as well."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/YJCv55.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/YJCv55_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" align="right" border="0" alt="Young Justice #55"></a>Looking back over the five-plus years on the series, David notes he has plenty to be proud of. “Personally. I liked when Cissie told off the JLA and then hyperventilated," David recalls. "I liked the camping out issue. I liked the sequence from Arrowette-turns-bowhunter through 'Sins of Youth,' which became a much larger story than I'd ever anticipated, but people seemed to like it. I liked the 'playing baseball to save a planet' story and the stuff on New Genesis. I liked the Secret vs. Spoiler story, and the story with Red Tornado's daughter being the victim of racism. And most importantly, I loved working with Todd Nauck."

Together with Nauck, the two are the only creators the ongoing Young Justice series has ever had. "Readers, frankly, are a puzzle to me,” David said. “They crab endlessly about artists ricocheting from one book to another, or being perpetually late. But I've worked with quality people like Todd, and Leonard Kirk, who are there month in, month out, turning out page after page of dazzling storytelling, and they generate no buzz. They're just taken for granted, and I think it's criminal."

Speaking of…different behaviors surrounding the book, some fans, bemoaning the cancellation of Young Justice, have threatened to boycott all DC books in retaliation towards the publisher. David sees this as silly, and oftentimes false.

"My reaction is, ‘Yeah, uh huh, right,’" David said. "Heard it, seen it, been there before. Heard the collective screeching when I was shoved off Hulk. 'Oh, we'll never buy the book again, oh, we'll support everything Peter David does from now on.' Look at Hulk sales now. Look at Captain Marvel sales now. I know their hearts are in the right place, but ultimately, I'm quite certain that if they hear good things about a title or it piques their interest, they'll be right back there buying the books again. I know that, they know that, and the publishers know that. Besides, 'we're dropping all DC titles.' Great. Swell. That's just what I need to hear instead of, y'know, 'Well, now that we have extra money, we're going to go buy Supergirl!' Or, 'What new books from DC is Peter going to have coming out, because we want to support those as well!'

“Boycotting an entire publisher because you're unhappy they canceled your favorite title isn't going to hurt the publisher. The retailers who aren't selling the books, yes. The creative teams whose titles will be hurt by lack of support, yes. But the publisher? No." The end of Young Justice though, hardly means a reduction of David’s presence at DC. There’s still Supergirl, as well as a few more projects in the works.

"Actually, I have a totally original series in development with DC," David said. "I've had people whose opinions I very much respect tell me that the way to help sales of my titles is to work on mainstream books. I dunno. I wrote the mainstream Hulk for twelve years, and The End sold huge. Didn't help sales on Captain Marvel. I think I need to work more on things that are completely of my own devising. It helps kick respect for your work up a few notches, I think.

“The new series for DC is tentatively titled, The Fallen Angel. I hate defining projects in terms of other works because it's so right out of The Player, but people seem to be able to understand things better that way. So think of it as Casablanca meets The Equalizer in the style of Twin Peaks. I won't say anything about it beyond that right now."

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[Slangword]

Best of luck to Peter with his new projects. Also, anyone looking for more of his writing should try Soulsearchers and Comapny from Claypool, as well as his novels.

--Scott

[Warewolf]

I'm really going to miss this comic. Month in and month out, it was one of my favorites. It had solid are, engaging characters, and solid storytelling. I'm not really sure why this never took off. I've been reading Captain Marvel since issue one of the previous volume and I just started picking up Supergirl with #75. I'm looking forward to more PAD stuff...

[S. Kurtz]

I'm really interested to hear what Todd Nauk is going to do next.

Todd is a great artist with a fun style and it is criminal that he doesn't get more attention and buzz.

[LFKittsteiner]

[quote] "My assumption is that they figure they can get better sales with a mainstream title carrying the Teen Titans banner and an approximation of the animated series cast rather than having a marginalized Teen Titans Adventures book that's separate. I can understand why the move was made." <hr></blockquote>

If the TV series is going to be set in the future, with some different characters, just how the new Titans book will appeal to the TV viewers?

[quote] "I also did my best to try and vary the tone, and that attracted some people while being off-putting to others. I'd do the series light for a while, then go dark." <hr></blockquote>

A good friend of mine owns the 38 first issues, and some extra stuff that I could borrow. I remember reading #15, and being put off, because of the extreme change between light and dark. It was jarring, but I kept reading. In the end, it was a very funny and endearing read, especially the talk between Cissie and Impulse in the baseball game.

It´s a shame, really. Secret was a great character. I hope Todd Nauck gets some work soon. Sure his style isn´t for everyone, but he got better and better with time, and he´s a real workhorse.

Good luck, Mr. David; good luck, Mr. Nauck.

LFKO.

[EvolutionBaby]

I hate to see this title go, as it has been one of the most consistantly fun books I've had the pleasure of reading. I hope PAD gets a chance to come back to some of these characters at some point, especially SloBo (whom I couldn't care less about before PAD changed him). Funny... the only thing positive that came out of OWAW for me was jumping on YJ, and now it's going away. :(

[aric_dacia]

I've always wanted to try PAD's Hulk run as I passed on it when it was out. Are there many tpbs that reprint the bulk of this run?

Barry

[Hunter]

[quote]Originally posted by aric_dacia:
<strong>I've always wanted to try PAD's Hulk run as I passed on it when it was out. Are there many tpbs that reprint the bulk of this run?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

As I recall, David did something like 10 years on the Hulk, so nothing that really collects most of it. There's supposedly a <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/078510884X/ref=cm_wl_ovu-pg.1-pos.16/104-4982406-3827138?v=glance&coliid=IJ7UWAZZFADZF" target="_blank">Hulk Visionaries</a> coming out next year, though.

While I am looking forward to both of the new series that are coming out of the cancellations, it's sad to see Young Justice go -- David and Nauck did a great job. Best of luck to them both.

[xdemon]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong> The series' end aside, and while logic might suggest David would be the ideal person to write Teen Titans, seeing as how most of the characters are part of Young Justice, he was not approached to carry on the young heroes' adventures. "No," David said. "My assumption is that only Marvel is insane enough to relaunch a title with the same writer."</strong><hr></blockquote>

ROTFLOL!!! :D

[J.C. Bakken]

[quote]Originally posted by aric_dacia:
<strong>I've always wanted to try PAD's Hulk run as I passed on it when it was out. Are there many tpbs that reprint the bulk of this run?

Barry</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think there are to many Hulk-tbp's of yore, but the Ground Zero-story, with Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen in their early days. And Future Imperfect and Transformations are also colleceted.

[SunWuKong]

There is also a collected edition called "Future Imperfect" where he collaborated with the great George Perez. It is one of the finest work David and Perez have ever done.

There are also some David stories in the Hulk collected edition called "Beauty and the Behemoth."

It's criminal that Marvel won't put out more of David's Hulk work in collected format. I guess Marvel is trying to make readers forget and disregard past creator's works.

[Falkner]

[quote] "Readers, frankly, are a puzzle to me," David said. "They crab endlessly about artists ricocheting from one book to another, or being perpetually late. But I've worked with quality people like Todd, and Leonard Kirk, who are there month in, month out, turning out page after page of dazzling storytelling, and they generate no buzz. They're just taken for granted, and I think it's criminal." <hr></blockquote>

I'd like to offer an explanation: I really feel like I am the standard comic book reader in 2002. I'm in my twenties and can only afford to buy about $50 in titles a month. Therefore I can only afford to buy the books of my favorite characters. Put Peter David and an artist as wonderful and consistent as Nauck on PETER PARKER: SPIDER-MAN and I'd love every minute of it. I've noticed Nauck's work quite a few times, but I'm too limited in my buying to get YOUNG JUSTICE...and I refuse to give up my well written yet "perpetually late" NEW X-MEN for it, even though I continue to complain about it. The problem here is that there are so few teenagers (I.E. the BIG spenders) buying comics today. YOUNG readers are the answer.

[Grendel Prime]

[quote]Originally posted by S. Kurtz:
<strong>I'm really interested to hear what Todd Nauk is going to do next.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Todd is working hard on a creator-owned project to be published by Image, shooting to debut sometime early next year.

[quote]Originally posted by S. Kurtz:
<strong>Todd is a great artist with a fun style and it is criminal that he doesn't get more attention and buzz.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So's that Scott Kurtz guy.

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by Matt Brady:
<strong>"But it's not as if Paul Levitz, Mike Carlin and Dan Didio got together and said, 'You know...Peter David's getting too popular. We must find a way to bitch slap him into shape. Hey! Let's cancel Young Justice!' </strong><hr></blockquote>

...Then again, considering this sort of vindictive bullshit is what got PAD punted off the only Star Trek comic series that was actually worth three shits, much less being bought, read and preserved, it should come as no surprise that quite a few people probably thought this is what happened.

DC still has yet to make restitution to PAD and the fans for that particular fuckup, IMHO...

[Todd VerBeek]

[quote]Originally posted by Falkner:
<strong>I'm in my twenties and can only afford to buy about $50 in titles a month. Therefore I can only afford to buy the books of my favorite characters.</strong><hr></blockquote>

For me it's more the other way around: I can only afford the books by creators whose work I enjoy. Fortunately, those are generally the people who can get me interested in the characters, so it works out in the end.

To cite a relevant example, I started reading The Hulk many years back (despite the fact that my only history with the character was the 1980-ish TV series) because David was writing it. I'm actually buying a series with {gasp, sputter} LOBO in it because... I enjoy the stories! On the other side of the coin, despite the fact that I've been a Superman fan since before I could read, I've bought those books only sporadically in recent years.

It doesn't always work out that way (I don't buy everything that my fave creators' do, and the characters they're writing are a factor in that). But most of the time, I find I enjoy reading books by creators I like about characters I've never heard of, than vice versa. (This has opened the door for me to a lot of non-serial-superhero comics as well.)

[Meteoro]

Oh, my! Too bad. I hate that Teen Titans cartoon already.

Okay, I'm not "dropping all DC books", but I'm just so pissed off with this new move. Young Justice was the one DC book that kept me anxious on the verge of my sit.

Too bad. Too bad.

The YJ team was the best and I'm going to really miss it. I think DC is going to produce another mediocre book to support one of their TV shows. Great. Since people is soooooo drawn from TV into comics. (You know, I'm being sarcastic).

This is what I get for defending DC when people argued that "DC was the comic company that hated their fans"

M

[fournwah]

That's it. I'm dropping all DC titles in protest. Except Supergirl. :D

[DOlivier2003]

This is the second time I've read that Peter David has had trouble with keeping a regular title on an ongoing basis within a year. Maybe it is just a matter of his writing being unappealing and mediocre to the readers in general. He's not a BAD writer, per se, just not a very good one. That, or he hasn't found his niche yet. Or he's writing too much and spreading himself too thin (Young Justice, Supergirl, Captain Marvel) to produce a quality or a memorable book.

The charge has to be levied. He's had a good (not spectacular) run on the Hulk...but that was years ago. Maybe he is now creatively burnt out and need to step away for a while.

Food for thought.

[StarSaber]

Im really sad to see this book go, ive collected all 55 issues as well as all the ones shots and extras.

Im glad Peter David is doing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with Dreamwave next year, hopefully some of the teenage feel will rub off on the turtles book as much as it did on Young Justice.

[Graeme McMillan]

[quote]Originally posted by DOlivier2003:
<strong>This is the second time I've read that Peter David has had trouble with keeping a regular title on an ongoing basis within a year. Maybe it is just a matter of his writing being unappealing and mediocre to the readers in general. He's not a BAD writer, per se, just not a very good one. That, or he hasn't found his niche yet. Or he's writing too much and spreading himself too thin (Young Justice, Supergirl, Captain Marvel) to produce a quality or a memorable book.

The charge has to be levied. He's had a good (not spectacular) run on the Hulk...but that was years ago. Maybe he is now creatively burnt out and need to step away for a while.

Food for thought.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bill?

Bill Jemas? Is that YOU?

[Graeme McMillan]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>...Then again, considering this sort of vindictive bullshit is what got PAD punted off the only Star Trek comic series that was actually worth three shits, much less being bought, read and preserved, it should come as no surprise that quite a few people probably thought this is what happened.

DC still has yet to make restitution to PAD and the fans for that particular fuckup, IMHO...</strong><hr></blockquote>

DC didn't really have any say over David being forced off the series by forces within Paramount, if you ask me... What would you suggest DC do to make up for something that they didn't really have any control over nor was their fault, anyway?

[Meteoro]

[quote]Originally posted by DOlivier2003:
<strong>his writing being unappealing and mediocre to the readers in general. He's not a BAD writer, per se, just not a very good one. That, or he hasn't found his niche yet.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Obviously you're not considering the big fan base Peter David has, or the fact that he's one of the most consistent writers, setting record time on his writting runs, or that he's one of the most recognized writers in the comics industry.

Maybe you're from Earth II.

M

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>

...Then again, considering this sort of vindictive bullshit is what got PAD punted off the only Star Trek comic series that was actually worth three shits, much less being bought, read and preserved, it should come as no surprise that quite a few people probably thought this is what happened.

DC still has yet to make restitution to PAD and the fans for that particular fuckup, IMHO...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Whoa, hey, hold it. I was just going to read responses to the article, but I simply MUST step in.

I have no idea where you heard this, but it's completely wrong. I was not fired off the STAR TREK comic. I resigned because there was a Paramount representative who was consistently rejecting story after story of mine, making it simply impossible to get the book out. He simply hated my take on Star Trek. It was that simple. So I left the title because, as long as I was writing it, DC wouldn't be able to publish it. It had NOTHING to do with any DC execs at all.

PAD

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by The Chris Hunter Fanclub, obvious membership of one:
<strong>DC didn't really have any say over David being forced off the series by forces within Paramount, if you ask me... What would you suggest DC do to make up for something that they didn't really have any control over nor was their fault, anyway?</strong><hr></blockquote>

...You forgot the [/snotty] there, son. But to answer your question, simply put DC needs to get the rights back to do a TOS comic and put PAD on the book. Currently only Wildstorm has the rights, and they're not doing jack shit with them. Someone needs to be putting out a line of Trek comics, and since DC was the only publisher capable of doing it right they need to get off their asses and do so again.

And hopefully without letting Weinstein or Friedman anywhere near them this time...

...Speaking of PAD:

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>Whoa, hey, hold it. I was just going to read responses to the article, but I simply MUST step in.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Good. I hate creators who just lurk :-) :-)

[quote]Originally posted by David "Point Man" Peters:
<strong>I have no idea where you heard this, but it's completely wrong. I was not fired off the STAR TREK comic. I resigned because there was a Paramount representative who was consistently rejecting story after story of mine, making it simply impossible to get the book out. He simply hated my take on Star Trek. It was that simple. So I left the title because, as long as I was writing it, DC wouldn't be able to publish it. It had NOTHING to do with any DC execs at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Whulp. Someone's steaming here. Guess I need to clarify some things, then. In order:

1) The Paranoidmount exec was one Richard "Melakon" Arnold, who after posing as a Gene Roddenberry assistant for years prior to TNG, was somehow promoted to managing the licensing division of the Trek franchise. He wound up screwing the publishing aspects of the franchise - re: comics, novels and the FASA RPG - before finally getting tossed off the lot after Gene's death. The majority of this, IIRC, is now accessable thru google searches on rec.arts.startrek and rec.arts.comics. Note that many of these discussions PAD himself participated in, back when his e-mail address was stil cup@portal.com. You can try searching on that, or any posts by Tim Lynch from '89 on up. Tim actually interviewed Arnold over the matter and found him severely wanting.

2) My beef with DC is that in this case they should have done a bit more research on the matter and stood behind PAD. Arnold wasn't held in high esteem around Paramount, and had DC pushed the issue a bit harder odds were against DC losing the license. In fact, it would have alerted the Paramount execs to Arnold's ineptitude and incompetence quite a bit earlier, and could have accellerated his dismissal.

Still, you did have the last word of sorts with Q-In-Law. I saved that post you made to r.a.s. for years where you described how after Arnold had nixed the book you'd shown it to Majel at a con, and the next thing you knew the book was back to press. Damn thing still needs to be made into a film...:-)

...Honestly, were it up to me - and I damn well wish it was - you'd be doing a new TOS series. Your take on TOS was the closest to what the original series was all about, taken to the levels that the 80's and 90's and even today's audiences need. I feel it's your best body of work to date, Hulk notwithstanding.

[gOgIver]

[quote] Part of it stems from when I was a fan, getting a huge kick out of Matt Murdock creating his swinging twin brother, Mike. <hr></blockquote>

How did that all play out? Foggy and Karen thought DD was Mike, so after he "died" how was it explained that DD was still around?

[Graeme McMillan]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>...You forgot the [/snotty] there, son.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, because it's obviously very snotty for me to simply comment on the fact that you didn't have your facts straight, and then ask how you thought the named parties should rectify something that wasn't their fault.

Not as snotty as admitting you were wrong even when one of the involved parties comes in and corrects you, instead pretending that you were always right and were actually complaining about DC not "standing behind" PAD - which, for all you know, they may have done, of course - all along, though... But what is?

[bob_at_york]

This is my 1st time posting so bare with me. I respect pad as an author and I loved his run on Marvel's X-Factor, but I tried YJ and it just didn't appeal to me. I have actually gave Captain Marvel a chance twice (with both #1s) and did not like them either. But I still feel your pain guys, I have had poor selling books I love get cancelled too (right now I am waiting for Spider-girl to be cancelled) but there is no point in saying we are going to boycott DC. When books do not sell well they get cancelled. That is the nature of the industry. All we can do is enjoy the characters while they are around and hope others catch on the series. Thanks for reading,

Michael

[Franklin Harris]

[quote]Originally posted by DOlivier2003:
<strong>The charge has to be levied. He's had a good (not spectacular) run on the Hulk...but that was years ago.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was the best run that title has ever seen, including the present Jones run.

[Fin Fang Foom]

[quote]Originally posted by LFKittsteiner:
<strong>If the TV series is going to be set in the future, with some different characters, just how the new Titans book will appeal to the TV viewers?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good question. Especially when it appears the TV series appears to be aimed for a much younger audience than the one that traditionally reads mainstream comics.

This looks like a half-hearted and somewhat desperate attempt to relaunch a TEEN TITANS book for the third time in 10 years, but without any idea what to do with it. (Not that this comes as much of a surprise; I mean, DC is relaunching THE OUTSIDERS.)

[fournwah]

[quote]This is the second time I've read that Peter David has had trouble with keeping a regular title on an ongoing basis within a year. Maybe it is just a matter of his writing being unappealing and mediocre to the readers in general. He's not a BAD writer, per se, just not a very good one. That, or he hasn't found his niche yet. Or he's writing too much and spreading himself too thin (Young Justice, Supergirl, Captain Marvel) to produce a quality or a memorable book.
The charge has to be levied. He's had a good (not spectacular) run on the Hulk...but that was years ago. Maybe he is now creatively burnt out and need to step away for a while.

Food for thought.

<hr></blockquote>

Y'know, I was kind of thinking these same things myself. I happen to be a big fan of David's collecting the entire run of YJ, as well as Cap Marv, and his run on the Hulk. In fact, it's because of him I give Supergirl a try periodically.

Yet I seem to be in the minority. I'm not saying that sales is an indiciation of whether you are a quality writer or not. Nor is appearing in the Wizard top 10 or other dumb lists like that. However, at some point, you would think that something that a writer of his caliber creates would be commercially viable as well as artistically well received. It just doesn't seem to be the case for PAD lately. I can't think of any title of his that regularly stays in the top 75, which seems around the cutoff point for the big 2 as far as success goes.

Maybe it's the fact that he is spreading himself too thin. The only one writer I've seen able to pull that off successfully without diminishing quality is Bendis. Maybe Geoff Johns too. Although, Johns does a lot of co-writing as well. Maybe PAD needs to focus on just 1 or 2 books at a time to make each series stronger. I know he does a lot of work outside of comics, and that probably plays into effect as well.

Maybe he's gone the way of John Byrne and Chris Claremont. Writer's who have had there moments in the sun, but are now overstaying their welcome. Like I said, PAD has a style that I really enjoy, but it doesn't seem many others do. Or maybe they do, just not enough to continuously support his work. I hope this isn't the case.

I actually think it's the type of character's he chosen to write in the last 5 years. Ever since leaving Hulk and Aquaman, it seems he's focused on B and C level characters. Right there, he's starting off with one strike against him. I mean, Superboy and Impulse weren't strong enough to support there own title, and he's got them both in one book. Mediocre characters + mediocre characters does not equal Great book. The characters of YJ, Supergirl, and Capt. Marv. are all second stringers at best. You could put Alan Moore or Grant Morrison on it, and I don't think they would do much better. "You can't polish a turd."

I would like to see PAD take on a top tier character once again. Or at least close to that level. Take a Green Arrow or Iron Man, or maybe FF and try to make something with them. Then we could see what he's really got. Unfortunately, the comic book business seems to be "what have you done for me lately". Doing something like this would give him a chance to show that he still belongs with the big dogs. Not that he has to prove anything to anybody, but something like this would give people the opportunity to decide whether or not he's still got it or if he's just riding off the success of his Hulk run.

I probably could have said this a lot better. I hope at least the ideas behind it made some sense. Either way, it's just my opinion.

[Tom Daylight]

Replacing YJ with TT seems to me a perfectly sensible idea. Replacing the creative team on the other hand is questionable.

Maybe PAD is the one who could make Superman into a hit...

[Godmera]

First Peter David is a great writer, his runs on Hulk , Aquaman, Supergirl, etc. have been great. The fact that Young Justice is getting cancel is less his fault then just the fact that there are other things going on like the tv series. I think they should keep the comics and the tv/movies separate and not mix the two. I read Spider-man regularly and the movie was great but mixing the two or change one to match the other hurts both. I didn't read X-men before the movie but the changes made after the movie came out have turned me off the book completely. I agree with Peter that I would not protest the company because of a cancelation of a given title but if they continue to make changes that push tradional comic book readers away they will hurt the industry as a whole. Plus doing reboots (with no tie-in) for no reason when it's not needed(Heroes Reborn comes to mind) doesn't help either, I didn't have a problem with the GA or Hawkman reboots because they were needed(plus neither title had a current series), I hated the fact that I was following Ironman regularly then Heroes Reborn came out of nowhere. Sorry I think I got off track but hopefully you get my point. Again I hope Peter goes on to take other book to new heights.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Jeff from Texas]

[quote]Originally posted by fournwah:
<strong>

I would like to see PAD take on a top tier character once again. Or at least close to that level. Take a Green Arrow or Iron Man, or maybe FF and try to make something with them. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I love PAD's work on almost all of his titles, I like his takes on almost any character that he writes. But right now, I wouldn't want him to touch Fantastic Four. I love the team that is working on that book. Waid is making one hell of a story with Johnny and Sue, and 'Ringo/Kesel on the art is just too good to give up.

Green Arrow, Iron Man, Avengers (he's so good with teams), Daredevil or Robin, those would be some great shots.

Just my two cents... (or is that $1.95 with inflatin?)

jeff

[qnetter]

Hey, Peter -- good to see you here. Roger K here -- perhaps you remember me, perhaps not.

I have to confess, while I was a big fan of yours ten or so years ago, I find today that it's wearing a little thin on me.

The problem for me is the glibness and sitcommy jokiness that turns up in the oddest places. It's nowhere near Ron Zimmerman Syndrome... but, well, every social interaction isn't taking place in the writer's room of YOUR SHOW OF SHOWS.

Have you written anything in the last few years you'd consider "irony-free" and short on glibness that I'd want to take a look at?

[COREMARK]

I just hope everyone who used to buy Young Justice gives Supergirl a shot if they have not already tried it, the current storyline has been fantastic thus far. I really can't wait for the new Teen Titans series though, I think Johns and Mckone will turn this book into something great.

[Heroic Images]

That's it. I'm buying Supergirl, Teen Titans, and other various books DC publishes, and dropping all Marvel titles.

Oh wait -- I already did that last part :) .

Davey

[Rockhammer]

Peter, I posted the following in the DC boards. With all the hubbab, I don't know if you actually saw it. I really hope you read it. It's my way of saying THANK YOU for a GREAT RIDE. YJ has been #1 in my reading list since it came out. Here's why:
(From the DC boards)

I love every single issue of YJ. I'm really sad that I won't be able to see a return of my favorite villians (anyone here remember Mighty Endowed?), but mostly, I'm afraid this will be the end of an era. The Titans have a history of in-fighting, dissolving, and going their separate ways. It's a book based on the interactions of the characters, which for some oddball reason is always interpreted as "they can't all get allong all of the time." This results in a Soap Opera comic book, which I don't care for. But the most horrible part, is that friends end up fighting with each other and not speaking for long periods of time. YJ was always about friends hanging together--not because they had to save the world (JLA), or because they were there to learn from more experienced superheroes (JSA), but because they liked each other's company. Sure, they saved the world several times and they may have had a few arguments, but it was nothing major. They always remained friends and had a good time. YJ was where they could go to just be kids and have a good time. The club house. I will miss this. I KNOW because of the way it has been advertised and because of its history, that Titans will turn the kids into back-stabbing, psychologically scarred young heroes. I DO NOT look forward to that. I will miss the club house, especially since I am a fan of the earlier issues of the book. I will sorely miss characters like Might Endowed, Sheik Ali Ben Styn, etc. YJ was a fun comic to read. Comics like this don't come along often. The last one was JLI, but those were adults and it was somewhat out of character for them to behave like that. But kids can get away with it. That's why YJ was so perfect. And I will miss that, because Titans will turn them on each other, and worse, will put a stop to the fun. It will make them grow up.

I also want to say THANKS to Todd Nauck, I don't believe he'll remember me but he was in the Young Justice yahoo club when I frequented it often. He was always a class act, and replied to us fans when we had questions. I always thought that was super-cool.

I will cherish the memories. Thank you very much.

Rockhammer

[KingStalin]

[quote]Originally posted by Fetsur:
<strong>Replacing YJ with TT seems to me a perfectly sensible idea. Replacing the creative team on the other hand is questionable.

Maybe PAD is the one who could make Superman into a hit...</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is a little off topic but don't you think it's about damn time we get some big names on atleast one superman title? No offense to loed, kelly, or the others but They been doing it for a while and just look at x-men. Same old same old and morrison comes in and makes everyone look at the x-men diffenrt. is new and differnt better? not always but come on Superman is THE comic book icon, Give PAD a run at the big guy. please dc please. you made me buy batman agian, not make me get supes again.

[William Coate]

I think Peter David falls into a particular category of writers who are very excellent at who has a great understanding of certain characters which takes a certain amount of time to develop and strengthen.

Despite what certain people think, particularly on this thread, Peter David's Incredible Hulk run will stand as one of the greatest runs on a character next to Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run and Neil Gaiman's Sandman run where characterization was right on target.

Not every storyline can be enjoyed by all readers. There are certain parts of the Alan Moore Swamp Thing run I didn't enjoy but hey will all see it as classic. There is no doubt that all the psychological trasformation aspects in Peter David's Incredible Hulk run were dead-on and awesomely done.

At one time Kurt Busiek and Mark Waid were also seen at very high points doing some excellent work and I do believe that they are headed for greatness with Astro City coming back and Fantastic Four back on track respectively.

My whole point is that not everything is everyone's cup of tea but once there is something that clicks with the writer and the artist the readers will be there to support them.

I thought I would never read the Incredible Hulk again until recently. Hey at least we were able to cancel the series before Marvel got their act together somewhat.

Peter David is a great writer and when the right project is well developed the readers will be there...

William Coate

[the world wide webspinner]

This is the first time I’m posting here.I usually don’t post at these boards.But this is an exception,because of this book.

First of all, I'll let you know that YJ was my favourite in eighteen years of collecting comics. It was probably one of the best superhero-comedy books ever! Not to mention the characters, storylines, etc.

I'll miss this comic very much. It was always the comic I would buy every month. Even when all that hype came towards Marvel ("Origin","New X-Men") or DC ("Batman", "Authority" one-shots) the only book I was anxious for was Young Justice, month after month.

It was the only book that had the best crossover/continuity story tie-in ever (the OWAW) the best DC fifth-week event ever (Sins of Youth) and most of all, the best characters ever (at first, the main reason why I decided to pick up YJ).

At first I was mad with DC for making this decision. Thought it was a money-greedy decision (because of the Teen Titans toon). But after I red the interview with PAD (great job, Newsarama) I understand that I was being maybe a little childish about the situation. But make no mistake, I'm sad to see this book go.I'll doubt there will be another book that has touched me as much as YJ.

That is why I urge DC not to let this series be forgotten and to collect them into TPB. I also urge to the general comic-book readers to pick ANY back-issues of YJ that you can find (they're accessible, not too costy and WORTH IT).

I'm positive that PAD and TAN (that's Todd Nauck, in case you don't know) will end this series with a bang (specially because of the Secret storyline, wich I've been anxiously waiting for a long time). However, I'm sorry PAD hadn't had the chance to develop nor S.B nor Imp (specially Imp), because when their books got cancelled, I was looking forward to that.

In short, best of luck to PAD, if YJ has to go, make them go in style (me and a lot of YJ fans are counting on you, don't let us down...). I usually read Supergirl and Cap Marvel, but YJ was by far your best work yet (in my personal opinion).

Also I would like to give a special "good luck" to Todd Nauck, who, believe me PAD, by us YJ fans, he was very appreciatted. This is one of the few guys that can actually be called a MONTHLY artist. And his artwork was always top-notch (don't believe me? check out the cover to YJ#51, an homage to Crisis#12). If it is true that you are making a creator-owned book, be sure to let us all know when it will come. I'll be looking forward to it!

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I don't usually post at message boards. But this is a special exception, in honor of a great book...

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>
2) My beef with DC is that in this case they should have done a bit more research on the matter and stood behind PAD. Arnold wasn't held in high esteem around Paramount, and had DC pushed the issue a bit harder odds were against DC losing the license. In fact, it would have alerted the Paramount execs to Arnold's ineptitude and incompetence quite a bit earlier, and could have accellerated his dismissal</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dude, I *really* do appreciate the vote of support. Don't get me wrong. And I'm not trying to whitewash DC on this matter. You know me better than that, I'd hope.

But the Trek comic fiasco simply wasn't in DC's control. It became abundantly clear that Richard Arnold was gunning for my stories specifically. What sealed the deal was when he rejected a story of mine on the grounds that it was "too violent"...said violence consisting of a fistfight taking place entirely off panel. Considering the number of times Kirk was in on-screen slugouts, you realize how ludicrous the position was.

So as an experiment, I wrote a story for another issue of Trek which had *more* violence and on panel to boot. It was submitted under a pen name. The story was approved unchanged.

Pocket Books had more clout with Paramount because they were owned by the same parent company, so they could get novels into print over Richard's figurative dead body. But DC was entirely at his mercy. And Richard had Gene's full authority behind him. Whatever anyone else at Paramount thought of Richard, it didn't matter. Gene stood behind him, and no one at Paramount wanted to cross Roddenberry. Not over a comic book.

Furthermore, my editor at DC, Bob Greenberger, *was* willing to fight for me. I didn't give him the opportunity; I quit, because I realized that as long as I remained on the book, I was a liability. And with Bob being an old friend, I wasn't going to put him into the position of having to fight a losing battle with Richard week after week after week. Besides, life's too short to wallow in such endless BS. So I decided to take Bob (and DC) off the hook and I left the title.

Yeah, I suppose I could have stayed on the title continuing to write under a pseudonym, but Richard likely would have found out sooner or later, and then the fallout would have been horrific.

Oh, and the pseudonym I submitted that story under? The one that Richard had no idea that it was me?

"Robert Bruce Banner."

PAD

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by DOlivier2003:
<strong>The charge has to be levied</strong><hr></blockquote>

But your levy is dry.


PAD

[beta-ray]

I'm sad to see YJ go. It wasn't at the bottom of my comic pile every month (I read my favorites last) but it was in the pile EVERY month (Captain Marvel is actually lower in the pile).

Can't agree that Peter David is in the Byrne category (I haven't seen anything appealing to me from him in a LONG time) and I haven't liked everything Peter David has done (Hulk and Aquaman didn't interest me). I liked his run on Peter Parker though, and thought his X-Factor was tied for the best version of that comic (with Simonson).

Oops, I digress. :p I guess I will have more money to buy a different comic with YJ and Thunderbolts disappearing... :(

[PeregrineReviews]

I'm going to miss Young Justice. It was a great, wonderful, entertaining title that I could always look forward to. And I'm filled with dread at what'll happen to Secret, one of my favorite characters. Since, well, she's unaccounted for in the new Teen Titans lineup. :(

PAD, I was with you the whole way. Unfortunately, I'm already reading Supergirl and Captain Marvel (have been since their respective beginnings), so I don't know what else to pick up except your next series. ;)

Thanks for the great ride.

[Cloak & Dagger]

I love PADs work. I started reading Spy Boy BECAUSE of PAD and was kind of disappointed that the series stopped.

I started picking up Captain Marvel about 20 issues in and remember thinking how great it was. I'm supporting the title full-fledged at a very dismal time of it's publishing.

I had very little interest in Supergirl. But I have started picking up the book with issue 75, just to support one of PADs books. I've liked the two issues, so far.

Best of luck to Mr. David. I can't speak for others, but while I have money to spend on comics, I will buy,AT LEAST, one book written by Peter David.

[Cloak & Dagger]

PAD, what're the chances of you working on Iron Man or, at least, a more prominent character?

I think the characters you've worked with recently (Captain Marvel, Young Justice, Supergirl) just doesn't have the fan appeal, no matter WHO writes.

I would have NEVER picked up Supergirl before. I'm doing it mainly to support more of your work, since I think you've got very good work ethics and your writing is very funny and enjoyable.

Isn't there a property that you would want to write that is actually a big deal in the industry? If there is, what are the chances of you WRITING that character or those characters?

[Nathan Linley]

I also loved Mr. David's work on the TREK books. He really had the perfect ear for the voices of the actors on the original show. And I'm really enjoying his reteaming with his best TREK artist Gordon Purcell on the current run of SOULSEARCHERS AND COMPANY from Claypool. It's one of the rare comics out there these days that actually had charm!
Does anyone know what is going on with the rights for TREK? I'd love to see Mr. David and Mr. Purcell on TREK again. Maybe DC can reprint some of the older issues? And I think an ENTERPRISE series is a must have!

[Hap Collins]

No one can remain sharp forever. People lose their edge. Creative entropy is an unfortunate end result of any creator or artist.

Peter David's previous work on PPTSS, X-Factor and the Hulk produced some great comics. The Hulk stuff set the standard for the character. But I'm sorry, for me, you can't lump everything he does into the same category. Not everything that he does is brilliant or TPB worthy. Comparing His Hulk work to Young Justice is like comparing the original Godfather to Godfather 3. They're two pieces of work by a creator at two different periods of his life and it shows. While I enjoy those early books and appreciate the work that was put into them, his recent work doesn't appeal to me. It often consists of the same types of jokes at inappropriate times followed by a pop culture reference followed by an in-joke followed by an appearance by one of his friends in the comic (JMS in Captain Marvel, etc) followed by something shocking happening that should hook the reader to buy the next issue. I just feel like that I've seen all of his tricks.

Much like Byrne or Claremont, I think Peter will always have a loyal fan base who scoops up whatever he churns out. I just think that maybe Peter should take some time away and try to come back with something fresh. It seems like there will be plenty of you waiting for him.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Alex Segura Jr.:
<strong>"Readers, frankly, are a puzzle to me," David said. "They crab endlessly about artists ricocheting from one book to another, or being perpetually late. But I've worked with quality people like Todd, and Leonard Kirk, who are there month in, month out, turning out page after page of dazzling storytelling, and they generate no buzz. They're just taken for granted, and I think it's criminal."</strong><hr></blockquote>

Speaking as someone whose husband inked one Peter David-written book (Hulk) for two years and another (Supergirl) for four and a half, I'm of course totally forced to agree. :)

[quote]Originally posted by SunWuKong:
<strong>It's criminal that Marvel won't put out more of David's Hulk work in collected format. I guess Marvel is trying to make readers forget and disregard past creator's works.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Or, possibly, that Peter's Hulk story arcs, like his Supergirl and YJ story arcs, might not easily lend themselves to a collected format. For obvious reasons I'd loved to have seen some Supergirl TPBs beyond the first one, but where do you break them so that you come up with a collection that has a beginning, middle and end? (Not to mention no arc-derailing crossovers...) This is, alas, the downside of what Peter refers to as the "novel style."

- Elayne

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by Hap Collins:
<strong>Comparing His Hulk work to Young Justice is like comparing the original Godfather to Godfather 3. They're two pieces of work by a creator at two different periods of his life and it shows. While I enjoy those early books and appreciate the work that was put into them, his recent work doesn't appeal to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I always love when fans say this. Because it always has to be that the *writer* has changed. It can't be that the *reader* has changed. That the writer is producing material that's as high quality, if not better, than what he was doing, but the *reader* now has different tastes. That he looks at the earlier material with the nostalgic eye of first discovery but now, as familiarity breeds contempt, he decides to go elsewhere while deciding that the writer himself is no longer up to snuff.

PAD

[Pig Iron]

First let me say everyone should go out and buy Supergirl. It is currently my favorite book and PAD and Benes are doing wondreful work on it. And I buy 20-30 books a month.

I will say that Captain Marvel and Young Justice were not to my liking. It seemed they lacked the balance of drama and humor that PAD consistently put into Hulk, Aquaman and X-Factor. Now, I may have picked the books up at the wrong time, but they just seemed like joke after joke after joke. The issues I experienced were like this and that turned me off. I may not have a true feel for either of those series, but those experiences ruined any chance of me continuing to pick either back up again.

Again .....everyone go try an issue of Supergirl if you can find one. The retailers have done a wonderful job of underordering them so you may have to search for them. It will be worth the search though..

[Donald V. Calamia]

I'm one of those who missed PAD's work on the Hulk - the character never really interested me - but I've LOVED both YJ and Supergirl.

I find it interesting how many posters think that because they don't like a particular writer's work, then nobody should. Or that somehow their personal opinion overrides everyone else's.

PAD - like ALL writers since the beginning of time - has his share of hits and misses (very few misses, IMHO) and not everything that pops out of his fertile mind will appeal to everyone. Writers' interests and skills change over time, just as readers' tastes change. There's nothing wrong with that...it's simply a fact of life.

To dismiss a writer's entire output - or to denigrate future work based on past or recent work you might not like - is simply ridiculous.

Thanks, PAD, for continuing to work in the comics industry when it would probably be more lucrative to keep churning out those novels! (It would probably be less stressful, too!)

[William Coate]

Every series is different and can't really be compared.

Peter David is headed for greatness as well and I thank you for such solid work.

WC

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>But your levy is dry.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...And, for that matter, did he drive to it in a Chevy?

[DOlivier2003]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>

But your levy is dry.


PAD</strong><hr></blockquote>

Damn you, PAD, I can't get that song out of my head! :-)

You do have a loyal following built up over the years, it is the strength of a good writer. I used to read Supergirl up until the 40s, then I lost interest. Oh, yes, and B5, the Centauri novels and that Fear, Pestilence and Death episode. It seems to me, though, that writers, in order to continue to be successful, have to either a) expand their creative boundaries outside of their chosen field or niche (in your case, scifi and comics) or b) appeal to people outside their fanbase (how? Change your writing style, go darker, go lighter, mix up your themes, I don´t know...). The two alternatives can work hand-in-hand. Have you attempted to do this (or can anyone show examples of this)?

From the sample of responses I´m seeing here, <ou have a core following, but it seems that it is ONLY your core following that picks up your comics work, and that number isn´t sustainable for an ongoing book.

[DOlivier2003]

[quote]Originally posted by The Chris Hunter Fanclub:
<strong>

Bill?

Bill Jemas? Is that YOU?</strong><hr></blockquote>

GOD, no. I don´t have delusions of grandeur!

[DOlivier2003]

[quote]Originally posted by Meteoro:
<strong>

Obviously you're not considering the big fan base Peter David has, or the fact that he's one of the most consistent writers, setting record time on his writting runs, or that he's one of the most recognized writers in the comics industry.

Maybe you're from Earth II.

M</strong><hr></blockquote>

Consistency doesn´t translate into sales, unfortunately, and neither does recognition, otherwise Walt Simonson and Keith Giffen(to pluck examples off the top of my head) would have better sales of their books. Sometimes it´s the quality of the books, or the quality of the character, or just sheer sheep mentality of many of the comic book readers that make books successful books. Which means some worthy books don´t get noticed.

As for fan base, if it was that big, and loyal, his books would never get cancelled. Period.

[John Osen]

Hi Guys! I've tried to post some funny and interesting stuff on my "The Non X or Ultimates Books Challenge". Please check it out some time if only to give me some well deserved ridicule. :o

[gwangung]

One comment that has come up that sort of annoys me is that people are not interested in PAD's books because they're about "B or C level" characters or about characters who are "uninteresting."

Hm. That sort of assumes that it's the characters who are inherently interesting, and not the stories. That sorta goes against everything I've ever been taught and everything I've learned as an artist...it's not the idea, per se, but what you do with the idea is what makes it interesting.

Pity that people will never find that out, as they endlessly complain about uninteresting comics, as they seem to ignore the very characters where you can find interesting stories...

[Hdefined]

[quote]Originally posted by StarSaber:
<strong>Im really sad to see this book go, ive collected all 55 issues as well as all the ones shots and extras.

Im glad Peter David is doing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with Dreamwave next year, hopefully some of the teenage feel will rub off on the turtles book as much as it did on Young Justice.</strong><hr></blockquote>

EXCUSE? is this accurate? Doesn't image do turtles now, with either Eastman or Laird doing the writing? (i can never tell which is which).

I mean, damn I hope this is true, because not only is everything by dreamwave visually beautiful, but I was always a second-gen turtle fan (meaning, I was into the show and the *gasp* Archie comics' Turtles Adventures, not the original black-and-white-shredder-dies-issue-1 stuff). Anyone confirm this?

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>I always love when fans say this. Because it always has to be that the *writer* has changed. It can't be that the *reader* has changed. That the writer is producing material that's as high quality, if not better, than what he was doing, but the *reader* now has different tastes. That he looks at the earlier material with the nostalgic eye of first discovery but now, as familiarity breeds contempt, he decides to go elsewhere while deciding that the writer himself is no longer up to snuff.</strong><hr></blockquote>

To be fair, Peter, I think both factors often come into play. I agree with your conclusions about reader expectations, but on the other hand if a creator doesn't evolve, he's liable to stagnate. It probably behooves both parties to keep looking at work with an open mind and an open eye.

- Elayne

[yudel]

Too bad. I'm going to miss this... but not as much as my kids (currently 8,11 and 13). I started buying it at the beginning because (a) it was pitched to kids (b) featured strong girls and (c) PAD had written the best Star Trek comics and novels I had read.

(Any recommendations of other comics I should get for them, while I'm waiting for the Leave It To Chance relaunch?)

Thanks for the fun, Peter. And thanks for keeping the younger readers in mind.

[Richard Werder]

I gave up on YJ after the first few issues. I can tolerate PAD's non-sense of humor when he uses it sparingly, but when he decides to batter the reader over and over with lame jokes and even lamer puns, I'm outta there. When he writes seriously, he's a damn good writer. It's just that I don't find him funny. Not even a little bit. And I hate to be reading one of his stories and have it come to a screeching halt just so he can insert a pun or in joke. Any tension or drama he may have built up goes right out the window. BAM, momentum stopped. Imagine watching "The Sixth Sense" and all of a sudden Haley Joel says to Bruce Willis, "Man, you must be DEAD tired." See? That's how I feel when I read a PAD story.

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

PAD may have a large fan base, but they sure haven't shown themselves on his 3 most recent comics: Captain Marvel, Young Justice, and Supergirl are all selling below 25 000 units (24 000, 22 000, and 19 000 respectively for the month of November). That was probably part of the reason why he wasn't approached to write the new Teen Titans comic. PAD's supposedly huge fan base has not been evident on his comics for a few years (as evidenced by the lack of sales on the 3 aforementioned books). Therefore, DC went with a different writer, hoping for a more successful turnout than PAD has been able to get. Also, as Elayne Riggs pointed out (HI ELAYNE!!), PAD's writing style does not translate into TPBKs well. DC wants to put comics into trade compilations as often as posssible. So, as anyone can see, there is a conflict of interest there that probably contributed to DC giving the Teen Titans to a different writer.

There were a couple of interesting things in this article:

1--PAD claims that only Marvel would be foolish enough to relaunch a title with the same writer. I have to agree, somewhat. Marvel was foolish for relaunching the failed Captain Marvel with PAD as the writer. Damn Marvel for trying to keep the title alive with the same creative team for its existing fans! How stupid of them to use the internet and other advertising venues to promote a title they were considering cancelling. Thanks, PAD. Too bad you didn't tell Marvel you felt that way before they relaunched it. Too bad you didn't tell us fans who bought it to support you, and who enjoy it, that we were being foolish for buying a relaunched title by the same creative team. Thanks a lot.

2--Captain Marvel is PAD's best selling title, not Young Justice. One would think he should know that...

3--I love how he can accept DC cancelling YJ as a business decision without writing an insulting and challenging letter online to the EIC of DC. I guess he has either matured since his attack on Marvel, or he doesn't have the same passion for YJ as he does for CM. Of course, this begs the question of why he doesn't offer to write YJ for free so that DC won't cancel it... Hmmm...wasn't Marvel's decision to increase the price of CM (at first) a business decision aimed at keeping the title afloat for awhile? Nah, that was simply Marvel trying to bitch slap the uber popular PAD.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I think that PAD is a good writer, but he is far better on a main character or team. He does good work, but is not a great writer. His name alone will not bring people to a second tier book in droves, unfortunately. For PAD to be truly successful, he needs to be teamed with a great character, or team of characters. Put him on Superman, JLA, Avengers, Spiderman, etc...and he will write terrific stories that will sell. Unfortunately, if companies keep putting him on second or third tier characters, he will consistently hit the 20 something thousand sales mark, and eventually get cancelled. There are very few writers out there who can come onto a low level character's book and make it do well. PAD has not been proven to be one of those writers ever since he left Hulk.

[comicsareliterature]

Hello (again).

To Elayne Riggs:

"To be fair, Peter, I think both factors often come into play. I agree with your conclusions about reader expectations, but on the other hand if a creator doesn't evolve, he's liable to stagnate. It probably behooves both parties to keep looking at work with an open mind and an open eye."

I totally agree. Of course, it also means that a creator has to look at his own creation as flawed, and that takes a powerful ego to do.

By the way, Elayne, it was great meeting you and Robin at the New York National Comic Con! Tell Robin thanks again for the Wolverine sketch! I wish we could have spent more time chatting, but you seemed busy. Maybe we will meet at the March New YOrk show, or at the Wizard Philadelphia con. Let me know if you will be attending any of those. Also, would it be possible to get a checklist of Robin's work? Please?

Thanks, and take care... :)

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by DOlivier2003:
<strong>Damn you, PAD, I can't get that song out of my head! :-)</strong><hr></blockquote>

...You think that's bad? It took me <u>years</u> to finally shake off a pavlovian reaction to that damn song that gave me the urge to go pee by the time McLean finished the first stanza.

See, when you're the overnite DJ at an oldies station, where the average song length was 2:45, songs like American Pie, Hey Jude, Suite: Judy Blue Eyes, Taxi, Bohemian Rhapsody and Knights In White Satin were a miracle when the can is at the other end of the building...

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>Dude, I *really* do appreciate the vote of support. Don't get me wrong. And I'm not trying to whitewash DC on this matter. You know me better than that, I'd hope.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Of course I do. Remember, you wrote me into one of your Spider-Wimp stories almost 15 years ago. How can I not trust someone who'd do that? I got a kick out of it almost as much as when some kid came into Dragon's Lair when I was working there and asked me to autograph the damn thing!

I'd had still preferred being a Klingon who bashed in Admiral Galloway's skull, but non-beggars can't be choosers...:-)

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>Oh, and the pseudonym I submitted that story under? The one that Richard had no idea that it was me?

"Robert Bruce Banner."</strong><hr></blockquote>

...And if you'll recall, in one of the followups to the post where you explained this way back when, I also suggested that you should write a What If? where Bruce was the one who discovered the super soldier formula instead of Dr. Erskine, and ended up taking on the identity of the Star Spangled Banner :-P

Oh, I rememeber those days, when Rich "Holy" Kolker and Tim Lynch, Moriarty and Boyajian, and a lot of relatively interesting people were on r.a.startrek. In the days before group splits and trolls and fidonet gateways and...

[/wax nostalgic]

[Arcadian Daze]

I hate to join in on the bad guys side here but I for one haven't read anything that shows PAD is a great writer. I've dipped in and out of most of the books he's done for Marvel and DC and two things about his writing have been constant. First and formost he seems obsessed with the minutiae of each characters history and continuity, usually to the detriment of any story he wants to tell. Like most fans turned writer since Roy Thomas his work has been inward gazing and more and more inpenetrable. I don't care about all the silly little points like why there was a grey Hulk or who has the negabands or what's going on in the Microverse to focus just on the Marvel stuff. As an aside here, my wife and I started watching the West Wing well into it's second series. We were able to pick up on what was going on and what the relationships were between the characters and both enjoy the series. My wife has on occassions enjoyed a wide variety of comics but when I showed her PAD's Capt Marvel she gave up in disgust within three issues. She had no idea what was going on and complained it was all too self-referential.

The second noticeable thing about PAD's writing is his see-sawing between belly laugh humour and gut wrenching drama. For me he can't seem to make it work. The two seem to fight for supremacy with neither side winning. Write funny with a touch of drama or dramatic with a touch of humour and they enhance each other. PAD's way one seems to lessen the other.

The big test for his writing will be his new creator owned series. I'll buy the first three issues to see if he can craft a story without 30+ years of someone elses work to refer back to.

Thus ends today's rant.

[fournwah]

I think some people confuse "large" fan base with "loyal" fan base. As some people pointed out, none of PAD's titles are pulling in "large" numbers. However, I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of the people who collect YJ, Supergirl, or Capt. Marv. also collect the other two just because his name is attached. I should know. Except for Supergirl, I'm one of them. I also have every issue of SpyBoy (my favorite work of his). And I initially bought it because he was writing it, and stayed because I like his style and sense of humor.

Someone complained about the idea of blaming PAD's use of "B and C level" characters. I wasn't saying that these characters shouldn't be used. I was saying that when you start off with a character that up until that time has been come across as completely dull, then you have to work extra hard to get the reader to actually care about that character. If someopne sees a book with Superboy and Impulse as part of a team, and their previous experience tells them that these two were very boring characters, why should they spend their money on the book. It takes a phenomenal storyline and then tremendous word of mouth to finally boost them to a point where they can be considered interesting and worthy of someone's hard earned $2.50. Unfortunately, while consistently enteretaining, PAD never had the "must see" storyline. I think he's capable of it, I just haven't seen it in at least 5 years.

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by gwangung:
<strong>One comment that has come up that sort of annoys me is that people are not interested in PAD's books because they're about "B or C level" characters or about characters who are "uninteresting."

Hm. That sort of assumes that it's the characters who are inherently interesting, and not the stories. That sorta goes against everything I've ever been taught and everything I've learned as an artist...it's not the idea, per se, but what you do with the idea is what makes it interesting.

Pity that people will never find that out, as they endlessly complain about uninteresting comics, as they seem to ignore the very characters where you can find interesting stories...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, yeah, unfortunately, that's the way it is. When I put forward the Countdown theory of comics sales in my column, I ranked the priority with which retailers order comics and fans buy them as follows:

Publisher
Character
Artist
Writer

If you produce a comic from a publisher people don't follow, they won't buy it. If it's from a publisher they follow, but a character they don't follow or care about, they won't buy it. If it's from a publisher they follow, featuring a character they like, and is well drawn, they'll probably buy it. And if it's a publisher they follow, a character they like, well drawn, with a good story, they'll definitely buy it. That can, of course, be skewed by a handful of writers (Kevin Smith, Neil Gaiman, JMS) but otherwise that's pretty much the order of determining a book's sales.

PAD

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:
<strong>

To be fair, Peter, I think both factors often come into play. I agree with your conclusions about reader expectations, but on the other hand if a creator doesn't evolve, he's liable to stagnate. It probably behooves both parties to keep looking at work with an open mind and an open eye.

- Elayne</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh, absolutely. Change is absolutely required from a creative point of view. Although, on the other hand, it becomes a double-edged sword.

For instance, humor is very much identified with my work. But books such as Captain Marvel are very light in humor now, and The Haunted was almost devoid of humor. I did it that way to force myself not to rely on humor as a crutch. That's creative development. But such moves also engender reactions such as, "Why is there no humor in these books?"

It's the reason many writers produce work under pen names. Because readers are literally unable to make the leap of a writer doing a variety of stories and styles, so great is the desire to pigeon hole.

It just breaks me up that on the one hand, readers of comics pronounce me creatively "burned out," and in the meantime reviewers in "Publishers Weekly," who don't know me from a hole in the wall, react to my novels with raves and starred reviews. Why? Because *they have no expectations.*

PAD

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong> For PAD to be truly successful, he needs to be teamed with a great character, or team of characters.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Kid, there's something you don't seem to be wrapping yourself around. Something many people don't seem to understand.

I *am* truly successful.

Arrogance? Perhaps. Truth? Yes. Arrogance is simply being unafraid to speak the truth about yourself.

I've been writing comics steadily for nearly two decades, during which I've seen lots and lots and lots of hot writers come and go.

And I'm still here.

And during those two decades, I'd had published nearly sixty novels, been on the New York Times list, had a TV series on Nickelodeon for two seasons, written for Babylon 5 and Crusade, written some straight-to-video films, have been on the Locus Bestseller list for the last two months, written a play that's been optioned by producers in Los Angeles, performed the audio version of one of my novels, and by the way, also have a family with a child on the way.

So, y'know, I appreciate the career advice that if only I wanted to be really successful, I'd be writing team comic books. That way I could prove my merit by doing wonderous things with characters created by writers who wouldn't be able to get hired today. To me, success is measured by far more than how many comic books I'm selling, or my ability to cleverly recycle that which others have already created and accomplished.

There. Another future member of the "Peter David was mean to me" club.

PAD

[cannon]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>

I always love when fans say this. Because it always has to be that the *writer* has changed. It can't be that the *reader* has changed. That the writer is producing material that's as high quality, if not better, than what he was doing, but the *reader* now has different tastes. That he looks at the earlier material with the nostalgic eye of first discovery but now, as familiarity breeds contempt, he decides to go elsewhere while deciding that the writer himself is no longer up to snuff.

PAD</strong><hr></blockquote>

Or never was up to snuff, and the reader was just at a young and impressionable age where the illusion of talent was enough to blind the reader into thinking there was more on the page than there was actually present.

Just to offer another interpretation.

I did enjoy the fifty or so issues of your Hulk run that I bought. On the strength of that and my affection for certain members of Young Justice, I picked up the first six or seven issues and then gave up in disgust after the melodrama grew too thick. I did something of the same thing with Captain Marvel, except I wasn't disgusted so much as bored.

And I don't say this to be a prick. I know it reads that way, but honestly it's not my intention. Because I know you're capable of really good, gripping stuff. Obviously your Hulk stuff was great, and you managed to sustain that for a good long while. Captain Marvel volume 2 is already a vast improvement over the previous run, and I find it actually interesting and engaging.

On the outside looking in, this improvement appears to me as though you're finally trying to write again rather than coasting on a strange mixture of in-jokes and melodrama. Of course this is not the case; I'm sure you worked just as hard on the last few years output as anything that came beforehand. But I'm not in your office every day watching you wrestle with a plot point or find a new way to insert a Star Trek joke in Wonder Girl's dialogue. All I have to evaluate is the finished product, which doesn't really do much for me.

What was my point? Oh yes, a certain level of arrogance is to be expected given your achievements, but casually brushing aside honest criticism in the manner you did above is poor form.

Jim Cannon

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by cannon:
<strong>What was my point? Oh yes, a certain level of arrogance is to be expected given your achievements, but casually brushing aside honest criticism in the manner you did above is poor form.

Jim Cannon</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not really. There's a perception that anything a fan has to say is to be considered, pondered, and given serious weight. But if a writer responds, rebuts, or says the fan is off base, then the writer is being defensive, mean, etc.

Fans endeavor to read into a writer's mind, or gauge how much "effort" he's put into a work, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Bad form? The degree of collective abuse writers take from fans surpasses anything writers could ever hope to mount in response.

And please, let us not get into a tiresome "That's their right" jag. No one's denying it's their right. No one's denying they're entitled to their opinion. But just as equally, no one should deny the writer is equally entitled to say, "You're wrong."

PAD

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To Mr. Peter David: Actually, I did not think you were being mean to me, just responsive. A little defensive, mind you, but not mean.

Now, what I was getting at when I said that you need "to be teamed with a great character, or team of characters" in order to be truly successful, was in reference to sales success in the comic industry. AS I stated, you are a GOOD comic writer. However, you are not a GREAT comic writer. That is not a harsh criticism in need of a listing of all your great writing successes. Heck, I am a fan, and am aware of your credits. That does not invalidate the simple fact that your name alone on a secondary or tertiary comic character/team will NOT draw big sales numbers. A GREAT writer's name will draw sales. Take Kevin Smith, JMS, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Frank Miller (although DK2 was an abomination I hope he never repeats), and put them on Young Justice, CM, or Supergirl. How much would you like to bet that the numbers on the title would jump considerably. Why? They are GREAT, and have proven themselves over and over again. It is very simple.

Now, you do have a staying power in the comics realm that is strong, although by no means unique. As you said, you are still writing. However, that does not mean you are great. John Byrne and Chris Claremont are still writing, and they are both no longer at the top of their game, either. They were great, and have now tailed off. The same has happened to you. It is unfortunate because you do have excellent ideas. Unfortunately, they are not translating to the final product as well as fans would like. Just because you are still writing does not mean you are a huge comic success story. It simply means that there are people in various companies who like what you do. Of course, when you consider the fact that your titles are continuously on the verge of cancellation...

By the way, while I was not personally offended by your supposedly "mean" comments to me, I was rather disturbed by your comment "I could prove my merit by doing wonderous things with characters created by writers who wouldn't be able to get hired today". I think you should examine your own feelings of "success" when you seem to be directing slurs at creators who were responsible for bringing the Universes you play in into being. I hope you were not actually attacking, or even comparing your meager contributions to, such greats as Stan Lee, Joe Simon, Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, or any of the other great creators who would supposedly not be able to get hired today. Remember, I am directly discussing comic work. You can pat yourself on the back all you want about your many other credits (thanks for the list), but I was, and am, discussing comics.

Wow, I guess I sound a bit negative in this post. I want you to keep in mind that I am still a fan of yours, and do look forward to what you will next write. I just hope it is better than your latest work.

There. Another future member of the "CAL was mean to me" club :p ;) :p

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>And please, let us not get into a tiresome "That's their right" jag. No one's denying it's their right. No one's denying they're entitled to their opinion. But just as equally, no one should deny the writer is equally entitled to say, "You're wrong."</strong><hr></blockquote>

...This deserves to be immortalized as a .sig somewhere. Seriously.

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature publicly, so I'll apologize beforehand for answering that way: :)
<strong>By the way, Elayne, it was great meeting you and Robin at the New York National Comic Con!</strong><hr></blockquote>

You too, Michael! Where'd you go off to on Sunday? We were expecting to see you both days, especially as you came all the way down from friggin' Montreal just for the con...

[quote]<strong>Tell Robin thanks again for the Wolverine sketch!</strong><hr></blockquote>

He says you're quite welcome.

<strong> [quote]I wish we could have spent more time chatting, but you seemed busy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Me in convention mode. :) But yes, let me know the next time you'll be in the area so we can go to lunch or something and I can tell you all the reasons you're wrong about DK2. ;)

<strong> [quote]Maybe we will meet at the March New York show</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's a March NY show?

[quote]<strong>or at the Wizard Philadelphia con. Let me know if you will be attending any of those.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Philly looks possible, as the lovely and talented Leah Adezio is now living in the area.

[quote]<strong>Also, would it be possible to get a checklist of Robin's work? Please?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you know, neither of us has ever taken the time to do one. Robin's finally catalogued all his original art that he's received back, and extrapolated from it that he's probably inked almost 3000 pages in his dozen years as a pro, but he hasn't yet compiled an actual checklist. I've just suggested it to him, so it might be up at <a href="http://www.soulmateproductions.com" target="_blank">our website</a> soon on his portfolio page.

- Elayne

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by cannon:
<strong>On the outside looking in, this improvement appears to me as though you're finally trying to write again rather than coasting on a strange mixture of in-jokes and melodrama.</strong><hr></blockquote>

On the somewhat-inside looking even more in, I'd personally maim to have the success that Peter's had "coasting on a strange mixture of in-jokes and melodrama."

- Elayne

[Johnny Triangles]

[quote]Originally posted by The Chris Hunter Fanclub:
<strong>

Yeah, because it's obviously very snotty for me to simply comment on the fact that you didn't have your facts straight, and then ask how you thought the named parties should rectify something that wasn't their fault.

Not as snotty as admitting you were wrong even when one of the involved parties comes in and corrects you, instead pretending that you were always right and were actually complaining about DC not "standing behind" PAD - which, for all you know, they may have done, of course - all along, though... But what is?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Haha!! Great post! You beat me to it!!

[glcjr]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>
There. Another future member of the "Peter David was mean to me" club.

PAD</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lol.

[alec_burkhardt]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>A GREAT writer's name will draw sales. Take Kevin Smith, JMS, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Frank Miller (although DK2 was an abomination I hope he never repeats), and put them on Young Justice, CM, or Supergirl. How much would you like to bet that the numbers on the title would jump considerably. Why? They are GREAT, and have proven themselves over and over again. It is very simple.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have you ever actually taken a look at the numbers these creators sell at when working on non-primary Big2 characters? They aren't anywhere near what they get when they are working on the these characters. So it's not the "greatness" of these writers (which is primarily an individual subjective opinion anyway) that is primarily drawing sales, it's the characters. As PAD argued earlier in this thread. There's a sales boost that comes from putting a new writer on a series and that boost may be larger with some writers than others, but you appear to have placed more value on these writers than they probably deserve. For example, Alan Morre isn't getting 20k readers for either Tom Strong or Promethea. I'm pretty sure JMS wasn't doing much better with Rising Stars or Midnight Nation either. And the other three really haven't written any non-primary character lately to even look at. The one exception might be Kevin Smith, since it could be argued that Green Arrow & Daredevil might be second tier characters for their respective companies.


alec

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by World Famous J. Triangles, who's really not all that famous outside of his own "mind":
<strong>Haha!! Great post! You beat me to it!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Oh gee whiz, I'm so hurt. I think I'll go have a good cry now and hug my teddy bear until the shakes go away.

[/dripping sarcasm]

[Alan Coil]

So much negativity around here. Lighten up, it's just comics.
I love the form, but if I don't like something. I don't run around bad mouthing it just to make me seem important.

I've been lurking here for several months now, and it seems that the same people just keep making the same comments over and over again about stuff they don't like.
Find something you like and praise it. If this comic book industry is giving you ulcers, find something else to do with your spare time.

Alan

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by Alan Coil:
<strong>I love the form, but if I don't like something. I don't run around bad mouthing it just to make me seem important.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Not all of us bitch just to make ourselves look big, Alan. Some of us bitch because we don't like something and want it fixed. Letting something bad fester untended is just as bad as bitching about an itch that doesn't exist.

Bottom line: some of us read comics for enjoyment, and if that enjoyment is lacking we're not too lazy or complacent to sit by and just pretend it's not up to snuff. Nor are we cowardly enough to just say "oh well, guess I'll take up stamps again...".

[AForceOfOne]

[quote]Originally posted by Alan Coil:
<strong>So much negativity around here. Lighten up, it's just comics.
I love the form, but if I don't like something. I don't run around bad mouthing it just to make me seem important.

I've been lurking here for several months now, and it seems that the same people just keep making the same comments over and over again about stuff they don't like.
Find something you like and praise it. If this comic book industry is giving you ulcers, find something else to do with your spare time.

Alan</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't you know that this is what most online board members live for? To be able to bitch and moan annoymously in front of their computer constantly thinking that their point of view is the right one. They talk about the books being bad, mostly marvel, and the people they hate, mostly Quesda and Jemas, and they say how much better they can write the books. But the reality is they can't. They need a place to vent because nobody wants to hear it in the real world and for that matter their comic store.

I get uclers just reading the responses...forget about posting anything. I can honestly say as far as Peter David is concerned I've only read issues of Hulk here and there and a good chunk of Captain Marvel. Hulk was so-so but when I read it at the time I didn't even know who Peter David was and was into Image. So that explains that. I didn't know crap from a hole in the ground. Captain Marvel was one of the best books I've read. I'll have to agree with the person that gave it to his wife to read that it's hard to follow for the new readers and miniscure references. But...he's not the first writer to do that. Not by a long shot.

I too have been lurking and I've gotten fed up with the nonsense so I'm posting now. I'm posting to tell these people to cool off a little and remember it's a hobby. Comics are meant to be enjoyed. If you're at the point you're arguing, especially with a creator, on book length posts then you need to take a step back. You need to take a step back and figure out where it was that you lost track of comics being a hobby and where you went all serious on it.

Enjoy the damn books. Books come and go. None are perfect in any way shape or form. The attitude just doesn't help. People don't like it.

The negativity, especially on this board, is crap. I'm sorry but most posts here are anti-everything not DC. For the most part. It's like the news...all you read and see is the bad stuff because most people find it easier then praise. Not everybody...just most people. So before you post a book length reply...go outside for a little while and get some fresh air. Live life a little bit...maybe you'll enjoy comics again.

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To alec_burkhardt: Actually, yes, I have looked at the numbers for the sales of the books for the creators I mentioned, and I think you should do the same before jumping into a discussion unarmed. The only one whose numbers on a title don't really stack up with PAD's YJ, CM, and Supergirl work is Alan Moore and his ABC line of books. Other than that, all of the other creators I mentioned consistently hit greater than 30 000 sales units. Kevin Smith on second tier characters makes PAD's numbers seem like a joke (yes, Green Arrow and Daredevil were considered second, maybe even third, tier characters). Frank Miller on Sin City sells more than 30 000 units. JMS' Midnight Nation consistently sold more than 30 000, and his Rising Stars hits more than 40 000. There is no need to mention Gaiman's numbers, I hope. So, yes, there is evidence to demonstrate that the other creators can sell books even when not doing Big2 characters. However, you failed to consider something. PAD's last 3 main gigs were for the Big2. CM, YJ, and Supergirl are not alternate characters for some minor company. They are all Big2 characters. That was my point. PAD is a good comic writer, but not a great one because he is incapable of drawing large amounts of comic fans to his comic work. I think that it will be interesting to compare the numbers on his creator owned work that is supposed to be upcoming to the numbers on Moore's ABC line of books. However, I do not think I am stretching my neck out too far to state that his numbers will most likely not approach Midnight Nation or Rising Stars in regards to sales. Heck, it probably won't even approach his CM, YJ, or Supergirl numbers (unless it is drawn by Jim Lee... ;) ).

So, as I have hopefully shown you, the GREAT comic writers sell books on their name, the good ones need to be associated with a good artist, or good, main characters. PAD is a good comic writer. Put him on the right mainstream character, attach a good/great artist, and he becomes that much better. Why? How the heck should I know? Maybe he only pushes himself when he is teamed with someone whose art can overshadow his writing unless he steps it up a notch. I do not have the answer to that. I am just stating it, and using sales figures to help clarify why I made the statement.

Keep in mind that this whole thing started as a comment on why a new writer would be tagged to do Teen Titans instead of PAD.

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To Elayne Riggs: Hi, Elayne... :)

I left for Montreal Sunday morning because I had to get back in time to correct some papers for my students for Monday. Sorry about that.

I will probably be in New York for the March show put on by Big Apple Conventions. They usually have the ony big shows that I get information on in Montreal. As far as I am aware, they will be having a 2 day show in March. I will try to attend then, and give you the opportunity to explain to me why you think DK2 is worthy of the name "Comic". I honestly think "garbage" is a better term for it. Hopefully, we will have a coffee and debate it with a smile... :)

I will probably be in Philly for the whole 3 days. So, if we do not hook up before then, let's meet at that show for coffee or dinner. You, Robin, myself and a bud of mine would probably have a lot of crazy comic talk to do and enjoy... :)

If Robin does put together a checklist of his work, could you tell me so I can check it? That way I can bring a box of his stuff to the next show and have him signing books for hours as an excuse to keep chatting with you both... ;) lol.

Take care, Elayne, and give Robin my best... :D

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>A GREAT writer's name will draw sales. Take Kevin Smith, JMS, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Frank Miller (although DK2 was an abomination I hope he never repeats), and put them on Young Justice, CM, or Supergirl. How much would you like to bet that the numbers on the title would jump considerably. Why? They are GREAT, and have proven themselves over and over again. It is very simple.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Putting aside for the moment the notion that only sales success equals greatness, let us consider your list of great writers, just for laughs:

Kevin Smith and JMS came with an already existing fan base as a result of movie and television work.

Frank Miller is a writer/artist. As a writer alone, his impact would be far less.

Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman. Brilliant literary talents...who come and go. They're here, then they're off doing something else as people eagerly await their next project. Plus, y'know, the whole British thing lends cred. As opposed to the dumb American who merely turns out three books a month, year in, year out, on time. Big deal.

(Purely as a sideline, consider the people who dismiss "Supergirl" as overly complicated. Linda Danvers is merged with Supergirl and becomes an Earth Angel?! How stupid! As opposed to Alec Holland, a scientist who is transformed into a swamp monster after a lab accident...except, wait. Actually, Alec Holland is dead, and there's this mass of vegetation that only *thinks* it's Alec Holland, except wait, it turns out that it's actually an elemental, one of four, and it converses with previous earth elementals who are a bunch of trees. Yes, much smoother. And let's not even *try* to work out the entire back story of Daniel the Sandman...)

PAD

[danzo]

wow, i love this thread- loads of laughs and interesting points. and Mr. David's here as well, fun indeed.
my two-bits? about the cancellation of YJ, so what? the characters continue and as a fan who's about both the characters and the creators, i'm happy to see a creator i like freed up for the possibility of working on characters i like. hee-hee.
is PAD a great comics writer? hmm, interesting question. that Hulk run certainly is amongst the very best ever by any writer on any major character. Aquaman? hmm, hated the book. but very well-written, i simply hated the way things went, not "my" version of Arthur. i don't think the quality of his work can be challenged, on a technical review, it's among the most solidly constructed yet non-formula work out there. no, all PAD needs is to strike that lightning that happens here and there when you put the right combo of writer/artist/character out there. do that a few more times, then he'll be recognized as one of the "greats"
oh, that, and to take very seriously the fact that fans are casting you into the Claremontian Abyss, while i'd dispute the charge, it merits serious thought. maybe do something completely different; y'know like someone who doesn't talk much, the story all external, no psychological overtones. people would never believe it was really you writing it. the ol' "keep it fresh" or whatever. lol

[Taylor Porter]

It's nice to see that, after all these years, Peter David hasn't lost his ability to make a total and complete ass of himself.

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>Frank Miller is a writer/artist. As a writer alone, his impact would be far less. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Far less maybe, but still ahead of most writers, including, probably, you. Considering Frank writes almost everything he draws, plus writing for other artists, I'd say he's made quite an impact as a writer. After all, he didn't even draw Born Again, Batman: Year One, Martha Washington, or Hard Boiled.

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman. Brilliant literary talents...who come and go. They're here, then they're off doing something else as people eagerly await their next project. Plus, y'know, the whole British thing lends cred. As opposed to the dumb American who merely turns out three books a month, year in, year out, on time. Big deal. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow. This just makes you sound jealous. I give you credit for your quantity and timeliness, but I don't see why Moore and Gaiman's lack of the same is that big of a deal. Should we value quantity over quality?

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>(Purely as a sideline, consider the people who dismiss "Supergirl" as overly complicated. Linda Danvers is merged with Supergirl and becomes an Earth Angel?! How stupid! As opposed to Alec Holland, a scientist who is transformed into a swamp monster after a lab accident...except, wait. Actually, Alec Holland is dead, and there's this mass of vegetation that only *thinks* it's Alec Holland, except wait, it turns out that it's actually an elemental, one of four, and it converses with previous earth elementals who are a bunch of trees. Yes, much smoother. And let's not even *try* to work out the entire back story of Daniel the Sandman...)
PAD</strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay, you're right; all of those are complicated. Does that make it okay to do more? And besides, if people don't complain as much about those other characters' origins, maybe it's just because the characters were better written than yours. I don't think it matters which character is the most convoluted, just if the stories are worth it. Moore made me care enough to figure Swamp Thing all out, your Supergirl stories have yet to make me care enough to keep it all straight.

[KET]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>It's nice to see that, after all these years, Peter David hasn't lost his ability to make a total and complete ass of himself.</strong><hr></blockquote>


On the contrary....I think PAD described your jaded mindset perfectly. It also sounds like he got you where you lived with his accurate assessment of the always-overrated Alan Moore, who's mostly getting by these days because Hollywood suddenly thinks he's the next Stephen King.

[quote]<strong>Okay, you're right; all of those are complicated. Does that make it okay to do more? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Complex characters usually tend to be more memorable in the long run than simplistic ones. Just because you need origins spoon-fed to you in easy-to-remember sound bites doesn't mean that said character's not working. Does complexity suddenly make it okay for a reader to be ignorant and lazy? :)

[Cloak & Dagger]

This thread is hilarious.

PAD, when can we expect the third issue of Captain Marvel? And how do you feel about the lack of inks in the comic. I think it hampers Chriscross's art. The sharpness is really lost because the computer colouring without inks makes things look really hazy.

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by Cloak & Dagger:
<strong>This thread is hilarious.

PAD, when can we expect the third issue of Captain Marvel? And how do you feel about the lack of inks in the comic. I think it hampers Chriscross's art. The sharpness is really lost because the computer colouring without inks makes things look really hazy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm told the third issue should be out within a week or so. As for the lack of inks, I think Cross' work actually looks better with it. I just think computer coloring has a bit of a learning curve built in.

PAD

[Elayne Riggs]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>Hello.

To Elayne Riggs: Hi, Elayne... :) ...If Robin does put together a checklist of his work, could you tell me so I can check it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know, Michael, private e-mail is a wonderful thing. :) Seriously, my e-mail address is in my Profile, drop me a line to remind me of all this...

- Elayne

[fujishig]

Well, I'm not going to get into whether or not PAD is a good or great writer, A or B list characters, etc.

I am sad to see YJ go. Initially, I balked at the book because I disliked Nauck's artwork, but I came back to it, and the artwork grew on me (same thing happened with Supergirl... dropped after Gary Frank left, until I saw how wonderful Kirk was) I liked the cast of characters, the lighter tone, the long stories, the attention to continuity. The one thing I did hate (which is entirely not PADs fault) is the constant crossovers that DC had that interrupted the flow of the book. If it wasn't a company wide crossover, it was a crossover with Impulse and Superboy, and so I have issues in my collection that don't make a whole lot of sense in the context of just the series.

The saddest part about the shift in creators is that the secondary characters will probably never see the light of day again. Maybe Arrowette, Secret, etc. will show up later, but most likely not under PAD's pen. Which means that they probably won't act anywhere near the same. It's one of the things I most dislike about non-creator owned characters... the next creator will most likely find a way to change them to their liking.

Which is why PAD's long runs are so remarkable. You really grow with the characters. But I think he suffers from the same "stupid comic logic" that his artists, like Kirk and Nauck, suffer under. They consistently put out work, month after month, on the same title, and as a result rarely get any kind of recognition or hype for it. They become taken for granted. Compare this to the rotating writer/artist teams on almost any other Marvel or DC book. And because the work is so consistent, I don't think there would be any problem releasing tpbs. Sure, there aren't definite beginning/middle/ends in a lot of his stories, but there are definitely arcs and times when PAD breaks up the book with stand alone stories. I think Supergirl, YJ, and CM would have all benefited from this, as I think PADs stories work best when read end to end (especially Supergirl).

I am grateful that they finally decided to end the last Titans run, though. It had been going downhill for a long time, and even the Kitson couldn't get me interested in it again. I do find it interesting that, besides PAD, I haven't heard anyone admit that the changes were due to the cartoon coming out. Especially the new writer saying that he handpicked his team, which is almost exactly the same as the cartoon's lineup.

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by fujishig:
<strong>The saddest part about the shift in creators is that the secondary characters will probably never see the light of day again. </strong><hr></blockquote>

...Hell, just look at the upcoming changes in JLA. Casey's thrown out Morrisson's edict that the first string will consist of only the top heroes. He's bringing in some of the "new" members from The Obsidian Age storyline, and there's no Plastic Man in sight.

And people think he's a good writer? Gimme PAD on JLA any day of the week, and that's not just some fanboy praise, either...

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

Who in Heck ever said Casey was a good writer? He is not anywhere near Mr. David's talent level, and yes, give me PAD on JLA over Casey ANYDAY.

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To Peter David: Yes, Kevin Smith and JMS did have an existing fan base, but they would not have bought their books if they were not well done and enjoyable. Kevin Smith took two characters on the outside of worthwhile (one was dead!), and made them enjoyable (and profitable!). Both Mr. Smith and JMS also received high acclaim for their comic work by professionals associated with comics. So, sales aside, they would still rank as great comic writers (although they do need to do some more projects to truly rank as great over a long period of time).

Yes, Frank Miller is an artist/writer. However, he wrote quite a few books that sold well without his art. He also created his own characters and saw them succeed quite well while receiving acclaim for the work.

Alan Moore's work is always highly acclaimed by comic professionals. While I might see it otherwise personally, it is unfortunately true that most people do not say Alan Moore and Peter David in the same breath.

Neil Gaiman is a literary genius. His comic stories are always beautifully crafted and end with the reader knowing exactly where Gaiman went, how, and why. Yes, some of his stories seem convoluted in some ways, but they are always neatly tied by the end in a delicious manner that allows the reader to think he/she undeerstood it all along.

Now, yes, you have been doing 3 titles regularly for quite awhile. That simply means that you are capable of putting out a lot of work, it does not mean it is great work. Heck, it does not even mean it is good work, to be honest (as an art example, Igor Kordey is a prolific artist, but his work is not comparable to Bryan Hitch's, and would never be the magnet that Bryan Hitch's art is even though Kordey can draw more in a month than Bryan Hitch can. Consequently, Hitch is also a bigger financial draw than Kordey is. Hitch is a great artist, Kordey is good, at best.).

Look, many of your comics are enjoyable. The question is whether or not they are great pieces of comic literature. Except for certain Hulk stories, most of your other stuff will never be comparable to great stories like Miller's Daredevil run and Dark Knight mini, Gaiman's Sandman, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Watchmen, JMS' Rising Stars, or Kevin Smith's Daredevil and Green Arrow (just to name a few). Did you produce more issues over a longer period of time? Yup. That means you have longevity and are capable of writing prolifically. Whether or not that writing is great is a whole other kettle of fish. As I said, and will always say, you are a GOOD comic writer who has flashes of greatness. I do not see why you perceive that to be such a slur that it causes you to attack truly great comic creators like Miller, Moore, Smith, JMS, or Gaiman, not to mention the disrespectful comment about your predecessors who created the Universes you play in who would not be able to be hired today (Bob Kane, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Joe Simon, Bill Finger, etc...). As you pointed out earlier, you are a prolific writer with many novels, and television scripts, and comics, etc...to your name. You should be happy that you are good at your craft, and not feel the need to prove you are superior in some way.

By the way, why did you make that comment about the "whole British thing" and you being a "dumb American"? I do not believe I am being jingoistic about any of the things I am stating, so I am uncertain as to why you brought Nationality into play. I would not mind a clarification, if you please. Also, aren't JMS, Kevin Smith, and Frank Miller American? I am not sure, but I believe they are.

One final thought. Did you ever think that if you were to focus on writing less you might write better? Rather than write 3 good comics on a monthly basis, maybe you should concentrate on writing one great comic. Just food for thought.

[Graeme McMillan]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>

...Hell, just look at the upcoming changes in JLA. Casey's thrown out Morrisson's edict that the first string will consist of only the top heroes. He's bringing in some of the "new" members from The Obsidian Age storyline, and there's no Plastic Man in sight.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jeez, that Joe Casey seems to have a lot of control over a book he doesn't even write, doesn't he? Joe Kelly needs a better PR person, I think.

Not to mention the fact that Grant himself added second-stringers to JLA. Or do you call Steel, Big Barda and Aztek first-string? Some would even argue that Plastic Man was considered second string when Grant brought him onto a book...

Why the completely unnecessary slam against Joe Kelly, anyway, OM?

[Rob Staeger]

Does it seem to anyone else that so much of this discussion -- not necessarily the phrases, but the subject matter itself -- is incredibly rude and presumptive?

I mean, people are dissecting Peter's career without knowing or seeing anything other than the finished product -- and often people chime in without even reading that. Show some class, people. Talk about the writing, not the writer.

Rob

[Donald V. Calamia]

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:
<strong>
I mean, people are dissecting Peter's career without knowing or seeing anything other than the finished product -- and often people chime in without even reading that. Show some class, people. Talk about the writing, not the writer.

Rob</strong><hr></blockquote>

In a similar vane, I often have the following thought when I read threads similar to this one: how many of the people doing the "critiquing" are experienced, published writers themselves? Do they even have a CLUE what it takes to be a PROFESSIONAL writer? And better yet, a professional FREELANCE writer? Or even a professional freelance writer of MAINSTREAM COMIC BOOKS?

That's not to say that only writers can offer valid criticisms of other writers' work. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, whether it's an INFORMED one or not. But experience in a related field or occupation sure helps to put things into perspective.

IMHO as a professional, freelance writer (not in the comics field), people here make a lot of assumptions, most of which are so wrong they are laughable.

I don't know how many of you have noticed, but PAD is one of the few comic book freelancers who takes the time to come to these boards and have a dialog with ya'll. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why that is, especially if you read through this thread. It's nice to get feedback and all, but little of what gets posted fits into the "constructive criticism" category. Hurling personal attacks at a writer does little to inspire others to join him in the fray.

I guess some feel that the ability to post anonymous rants gives them the right, privilege and satisfaction to do so...with little regard for such minor annoyances as respect, courtesy and common decency.

The internet is indeed a wondrous thing...

[paulski]

CAL, I expected much better of you, I'm afraid...

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>PAD may have a large fan base, but they sure haven't shown themselves on his 3 most recent comics: Captain Marvel, Young Justice, and Supergirl are all selling below 25 000 units (24 000, 22 000, and 19 000 respectively for the month of November). That was probably part of the reason why he wasn't approached to write the new Teen Titans comic. PAD's supposedly huge fan base has not been evident on his comics for a few years (as evidenced by the lack of sales on the 3 aforementioned books). Therefore, DC went with a different writer, hoping for a more successful turnout than PAD has been able to get.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yep, fair enough. No argument here. It's DC's prerogative to put who they think can best sell a book on a book.

[quote]<strong>PAD claims that only Marvel would be foolish enough to relaunch a title with the same writer. I have to agree, somewhat. Marvel was foolish for relaunching the failed Captain Marvel with PAD as the writer. Damn Marvel for trying to keep the title alive with the same creative team for its existing fans! How stupid of them to use the internet and other advertising venues to promote a title they were considering cancelling. Thanks, PAD. Too bad you didn't tell Marvel you felt that way before they relaunched it. Too bad you didn't tell us fans who bought it to support you, and who enjoy it, that we were being foolish for buying a relaunched title by the same creative team. Thanks a lot.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Careful, CAL, your make-up's starting to run and that Marvel Zombie hidden underneath is starting to show.

Lighten up, would you. I'll be the first to admit that relaunching the title has given it a new lease of life, at least for me. But obviously (assuming I've read this right) PAD still has issues with the way the whole thing - U Decide, notwithstanding - was conducted and I can't say I blame him. If you recall, Marvel didn't even notify him of their intention to increase the price of his title. And then went and started the whole U Decide debacle, unleashing Marville upon an unsuspecting world.

And he's right, anyway. What the hell is the point of relaunching a title with the same writer, the same artist and the same character? Oh, apart from being 'the Marvel way'? I'll tell you. A temporary sales boost. And that's all.

[quote]<strong>I love how he can accept DC cancelling YJ as a business decision without writing an insulting and challenging letter online to the EIC of DC. I guess he has either matured since his attack on Marvel, or he doesn't have the same passion for YJ as he does for CM.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, there's that, of course. Or maybe it's the simple fact DC informed him of the decision??!

[quote]<strong>Of course, this begs the question of why he doesn't offer to write YJ for free so that DC won't cancel it... Hmmm...wasn't Marvel's decision to increase the price of CM (at first) a business decision aimed at keeping the title afloat for awhile? Nah, that was simply Marvel trying to bitch slap the uber popular PAD.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I hope you're at least a little bit embarrassed at seeing what you've written here. Somewhat insulting, no?

Keeping the book afloat for a while? As Peter has stated, the price rise was a proverbial death sentence for the book, be it in 6 months or 12. Sales are low so let's increase the price and kill even more sales? Genius decision. But I don't want to go back over old territory too much. I think we both know where we lie by now.

[quote]<strong>I think that PAD is a good writer, but he is far better on a main character or team. He does good work, but is not a great writer. His name alone will not bring people to a second tier book in droves, unfortunately.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, perhaps not. And sadly, those people don't know what they're missing.

[quote]<strong>Unfortunately, if companies keep putting him on second or third tier characters, he will consistently hit the 20 something thousand sales mark, and eventually get cancelled.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps, perhaps not. But unless you've forgotten, CAL, the market's not especially healthy at the moment and there's a hell of a lot of books currently selling in this range.

[quote]<strong>John Byrne and Chris Claremont are still writing, and they are both no longer at the top of their game, either. They were great, and have now tailed off. The same has happened to you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unbelievable. I think PAD went easy on you after that nasty little comment. Let me tell you, I've read books by all three of these guys and whilst Byrne and Claremont have indeed lost the ability to tell even a halfway enjoyable story (that's right, flame away at me, Byrne Victims), PAD remains one of the most consistently reliable guys writing books at the moment.

[quote]<strong>It is unfortunate because you do have excellent ideas. Unfortunately, they are not translating to the final product as well as fans would like. Just because you are still writing does not mean you are a huge comic success story. It simply means that there are people in various companies who like what you do. Of course, when you consider the fact that your titles are continuously on the verge of cancellation... </strong><hr></blockquote>

CAL, if I was a suspicious person, I'd think you hold a grudge against Peter for daring to criticise your beloved Marvel. Just as well I'm not. Because that would be sad.

It's one thing to hold someone's abilities in low esteem. Everyone has the right to have favourites and not-so-favourites. It's another thing entirely to jump on a message board and insult that someone, and for seemingly no justifiable reason. You claim to regard Peter as a good writer. Wow, I'd hate to hear what you think of the bad ones...

[paulski]

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
<strong>It's nice to see that, after all these years, Peter David hasn't lost his ability to make a total and complete ass of himself.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unlike CAL, I'm not going to dignify your spiteful and immature little post with any sort of detailed or extensive reply. Because Christ knows, you're not worthy of it.

[Taylor Porter]

[quote]Originally posted by paulski:
<strong>

Unlike CAL, I'm not going to dignify your spiteful and immature little post with any sort of detailed or extensive reply. Because Christ knows, you're not worthy of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks!!! :)

[Chainsaw Charlie]

First off, we all have to commend Mr. David for taking time out of his arguably busy schedule to participate in this debate. We all know he could easily do without the headache. If anything, this clearly illustrates both his love for the medium as well as his desire to acknowledge the concerns of fans and critics. Seriously, how many artists and writers are willing to so openly do the same? That being said, it's not like he needs any one to speak up in his defense. I'm merely stating a fact.

We don't have to like Mr. David. We don't have to invite him to your kid's Bar Mitsvah. At the same time, no one would berate us if we did whatever we could to make sure he never discovered the location of our "all you can eat" restaurant. However, the one thing we do need to recognize is that when it finally comes time to erect a comic book writer's hall of fame, he'll have a long and well deserved spot reserved for him.

In closing, I could only hope Mr. David's entry into the gallowed halls of comic fame is not marred by the questionable comments made regarding his fellow comic book writers, many of whom worked long and hard to help evolve the medium into what it is today. They introduced and established a market for a more sophisticated type of storytelling, the type of which likely opened the doors for Mr. David to enjoy an arguably successful career.

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To paulski: Hey, bub, how are you? It's been awhile. :D

Ok, let's do the dance, my friend.

1--Nice to know that you agree with the fact that DC can decide who they want on a book. :p (Does Marvel get the same privilege? lol)

2--We definitely do not agree here. The man is attacking Marvel for trying to jump start his failing book. Basically, if he felt that Marvel should not have relaunched the title with the same creative team, then he should have stepped aside and allowed another writer to come and try to make CM successful. Of course, he could have also simply accepted Marvel's BUSINESS decision to increase the price on Cm and watched it get cancelled. He appears to have allowed YJ to die without much of a statement.

You know, Paulski, maybe it is PAD's anti-Marvel face paint showing. YJ gets cancelled by DC as a business decision, and he quietly lets it die without any fuss. However, when Marvel makes a business decision to increase the price of CM, PAD is there standing up for the fans. Then he criticizes Marvel for doing everything they can to get people to buy his failing comic. Marvel didn't advertise enough. Well, they started the U-Decide "event" that "galvanized" all of PAD's fans to buy CM in order to ensure that it didn't lose to Marville or UA. Marvel started his book over at #1 to help give it a sales boost--a NECESSARY sales boost since it was falling to the Marvel cut-off point. Guess what? The relaunch, PAD's new stories designed to be reader friendly, all of the online, advertising, and Previews publicity have not paid off. CM is still rapidly dropping back to the point where Marvel will have to either increase the price by a quarter to help it survive a little longer, or cancel the book.

You want to see some real truth, paulski? How about you look at the whole thing as a statement about PAD's ego. YJ is cancelled, but PAD is told about it in advance, so he quietly lets it die. PAD is not told CM will be increased by a quarter, this becomes an intolerable insult to him, and he creates a huge fuss by attacking Marvel publicly. What is the main diference in the two stories? PAD's knowledge of what was going to happen. Tell him you will cancel his book, and he quietly lets it die. Don't tell him you are going to change the price of his book, and he will publicly attack you. Sorry, paulski, it is not my zombie paint showing, it is PAD's ego.

3-- Is this the part that you thought was being insulting?

"Nah, that was simply Marvel trying to bitch slap the uber popular PAD"

If it was, then keep in mind that I am simply playing with what PAD stated in the article:

"it's not as if Paul Levitz, Mike Carlin and Dan Didio got together and said, 'You know...Peter David's getting too popular. We must find a way to bitch slap him into shape. Hey! Let's cancel Young Justice"

You see, when Marvel decided to increase CM by 25 cents, it was not in order to bitch slap PAD, either. Although he sure decided to make it personal, didn't he? You are right, though, let's not go over old territory. By the way, just using your example of how raising the price would only have kept the book around for 6-12 more issues, I would ask you how many it will last with its current falling sales--maybe 6-12 more issues? Even after getting all the hype, the new relaunch, new direction, etc...PAD's writing on CM is still not enough to keep fans buying the book. You know what? That is what my point has been throughout this whole discussion I have had with him. His name is NOT strong enough to sell a second or third tier character at sustainable levels.

4--I agree that many people who do not give PAD a chance on CM, YJ, and Supergirl are missing some good stories. Unfortunately, there are a lot of economics that go into that which we need not go over today... ;)

5--You are correct, the market is NOT healthy. I have not forgotten it. I say it all the time. However, great writers sell even in a depressed market. JMS is still selling over 40 000 copies of Rising Stars. The book had no recognizable characters when it started, it is brutally late, and has had average artists on it throughout. However, it still almost doubles PAD's books in regards to sales. Even in a depressed market. Why? The writing is great. Not good, not decent, not really ok. It is great. Period. (By the way, the writing is great for far more reasons than simply economic ones).

6--I never said PAD was not reliable or consistent. Heck, I have maintained throughout that he is a GOOD writer. I think he is, presently, better than Byrne. However, that still does not make him a GREAT writer. Emmitt Smith is still a good running back, but he is no longer the great running back he was a few years ago. That is not an insult, it is a fact. The same is true of PAD. It will remain true until he writes something new that is great. I am not trying to take away what he has accomplished in the past, I am simply commenting on what he has done recently, and is doing presently. YJ, Supergirl, and CM are good. They are not great.

7--I can not hold a grudge against the man who made me enjoy the Hulk for the first time in my life. I can not hold a grudge against the man who gave me Future Imperfect! I respect Mr. David. I like his work. I would love to see him doing the Avengers, JLA, Captain America, Batman, Superman, Wolverine, or any other main character or group from DC or Marvel. I would buy it, and I believe that those are the characters he would excel with. I honestly believe that Mr. David does his best work when he is writing about the best characters that Marvel or DC have to offer. Unfortunately, that has not happened in far too long.

paulski, I respect your opinion, and hope you do not read what I wrote with "CAL is a zombie" glasses. Think about what I am saying, and remember it was started as a response to the article, and what Mr. David said during the course of posting on this thread. I know that some of what I have said has come across as harsh, but I am simply trying to be honest.

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>I do not see why you perceive that to be such a slur that it causes you to attack truly great comic creators like Miller, Moore, Smith, JMS, or Gaiman, not to mention the disrespectful comment about your predecessors who created the Universes you play in who would not be able to be hired today (Bob Kane, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Joe Simon, Bill Finger, etc...). As you pointed out earlier, you are a prolific writer with many novels, and television scripts, and comics, etc...to your name. You should be happy that you are good at your craft, and not feel the need to prove you are superior in some way.

By the way, why did you make that comment about the "whole British thing" and you being a "dumb American"? I do not believe I am being jingoistic about any of the things I am stating, so I am uncertain as to why you brought Nationality into play. I would not mind a clarification, if you please. Also, aren't JMS, Kevin Smith, and Frank Miller American? I am not sure, but I believe they are.

One final thought. Did you ever think that if you were to focus on writing less you might write better? Rather than write 3 good comics on a monthly basis, maybe you should concentrate on writing one great comic. Just food for thought.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not bothering to address the things that are purely your opinion, but I do feel the need to address your complete distortions of what I said.

I did *not* attack Miller, Moore, etc. I stated facts based upon history and fan reactions. What got Miller attention was his work as a writer/artist. His artistic ability enabled him to present his very cinematic vision in a way other artists likely wouldn't have been able to do, and that is what he built his reputation upon. That's not an attack.

Moore and Gaiman really did, and do, go away for extended periods, and fans frequently want what they don't have. If Moore and Gaiman worked steadily, year in and year out, in the comics industry, history indicates they might well have been chewed up and spit out by now. That's not an attack. Furthermore, in this country, we do tend to lionize the British. That's not an attack.

JMS and Smith *do* come to comics with already existing fan bases. That's not an attack.

The most staggering distortion and outright misrepresentation you made was your assertion that I was "disrespectful" in speaking of people who would not be hired today. Do I really need to spell out that I was not speaking about people who have passed away, since hiring the dead isn't all that much in fashion? Yes, I guess I do have to spell it out. *Obviously* I was speaking of people who created many of the great characters that have garnered millions upon millions of dollars for companies that now would not give those same creators the time of day. I'm talking of publishing ingratitude, fueled by a mentality of "What have you done for us lately?" I'm talking about feeling increasingly uncomfortable building my own career by standing upon the shoulders of giants who are forgotten or ignored by publishers and fans alike.

My God, I go to the San Diego convention, and I watch fans run like lemmings to get books signed by the Hot New Creators, sprinting right past the tables of the Great People who originally created those characters from whole cloth...and are ignored. Or if they are noticed, often it's with vague disdain.

Don't talk to me of disrespect, Kiddo. Don't talk to me of attacks or slurs. Not when I've seen fans and companies alike treat the greats of this industry like they're crap on their shoes. Thank heavens that a number of people in the industry formed ACTOR to endeavor to attend to our own, because no one else was. I only wish I'd thought of it.

And here's some food for thought for you: "One great comic?" By whose definition? Yours?

If I focused on writing less, I could write better? My God. Kid...whatever arrogance I possess can't begin to touch yours.

PAD

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by Chainsaw Charlie:
<strong>In closing, I could only hope Mr. David's entry into the gallowed halls of comic fame </strong><hr></blockquote>

If that was an intentional ironic twist on "hallowed," then I must say, sir, that it was brilliant. If it was just a typo, then it was a brilliant typo. Because now all I can see is the gallowed halls of comic fame, with various comic book creators hung by the neck, swinging silently as a gentle breeze stirs their corpses.

Whether you meant it to or not, I say in all sincerity and with no intent of sarcasm, this was the best post on this thread.

PAD

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>

2--We definitely do not agree here. The man is attacking Marvel for trying to jump start his failing book</strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay, let me put this succinctly:

IT WAS A JOKE. It was not an attack. It was a joke, derived from the notion that Marvel actually had the nerve to reboot a title with the exact same creative team, and it actually worked in terms of sales. Anyone without a chip on their shoulder...or, at the very least, a chip that had not splintered off his wooden head...would have understood this.


PAD

[beta-ray]

Peter David wrote:
[quote] If that was an intentional ironic twist on "hallowed," then I must say, sir, that it was brilliant. If it was just a typo, then it was a brilliant typo. <hr></blockquote>

I think he did it with Gallowed Gall. ;)

[Chainsaw Charlie]

Mr. David, it wasn't a typo at all... How ironic that you would be the only one to pick up the play on words... In truth, it was a quiet tribute to Dave Sim, a comic book pioneer, one of the many writer/artists who helped evolve the medium into what it is today.

The gallowed hall was loosely based on a page from Spawn #10 (Dave Sim penned) where we see many of today's greatest comic book franchises locked up and left to rot in a jail cell. The only word bubble we see on the given splash page were, "Doomsday happened".

Every writer, no matter what the medium, eventually enters the gallowed hall. It is their destiny and, it is rarely a willing journey, only one enforced upon them by their once beloved masses when their fortuitous link to the collective unconscious, the world of imagination and wonder, no longer welcomes them. My only hope is that your inevitable walk along the fated writer's green mile isn't as clouded with as much controversy.

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by Chainsaw Charlie:
<strong>Mr. David, it wasn't a typo at all... How ironic that you would be the only one to pick up the play on words... In truth, it was a quiet tribute to Dave Sim, a comic book pioneer, one of the many writer/artists who helped evolve the medium into what it is today.

The gallowed hall was loosely based on a page from Spawn #10 (Dave Sim penned) where we see many of today's greatest comic book franchises locked up and left to rot in a jail cell. The only word bubble we see on the given splash page were, "Doomsday happened".

Every writer, no matter what the medium, eventually enters the gallowed hall. It is their destiny and, it is rarely a willing journey, only one enforced upon them by their once beloved masses when their fortuitous link to the collective unconscious, the world of imagination and wonder, no longer welcomes them. My only hope is that your inevitable walk along the fated writer's green mile isn't as clouded with as much controversy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And that is exactly why I work in as many media, and do as many different things, as I do. I see the limits and limited attention span of any one group, and concentrate on other venues. I'm never looking where I'm going to be six months from now; I'm looking five years from now, ten years from now.

I won't say I can't envision myself doing comics ten years hence, if for no other reason than that I don't want to be like Mick Jagger, who as I recall said years ago that he could never see himself at age 50 jumping around on stage singing "Satisfaction." Which is, of course, pretty much what happened. Quotes like that come back to haunt you.

But if I'm looking to comics readers to be my primary audience a decade from now, then I'm kidding myself. Unless, of course, I leave the comics business for six, seven years.

PAD

[Cloak & Dagger]

PAD, when are you coming back to the Metro Toronto Comic Book Convention? The last time you were here was when Claremont was here. I remember standing in line when you started commenting on how Magneto should be called Mag "Net-O" as in fishing net, instead of Mag-Neat-O.

I used to always call him Mag Net-O until the Fox cartoon told me otherwise. Then the movie pretty much settled it.

[paulski]

Michael, I'll apologise in advance for the abbreviated responses - I want to catch a movie tonight...

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>1--Nice to know that you agree with the fact that DC can decide who they want on a book. :p (Does Marvel get the same privilege? lol)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course. Am I missing something here?

[quote]<strong>2--We definitely do not agree here. The man is attacking Marvel for trying to jump start his failing book.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know, it almost sounded like a joke when I read PAD's comment the first time but I didn't want to presume on his behalf. But now he's confirmed it, so hopefully we can let this one rest now.

[quote]<strong>You want to see some real truth, paulski? How about you look at the whole thing as a statement about PAD's ego. YJ is cancelled, but PAD is told about it in advance, so he quietly lets it die. PAD is not told CM will be increased by a quarter, this becomes an intolerable insult to him, and he creates a huge fuss by attacking Marvel publicly. What is the main diference in the two stories? PAD's knowledge of what was going to happen. Tell him you will cancel his book, and he quietly lets it die. Don't tell him you are going to change the price of his book, and he will publicly attack you. Sorry, paulski, it is not my zombie paint showing, it is PAD's ego.</strong><hr></blockquote>

See, this is the sort of stuff I don't really see as necessary around here. You've made a lot of assumptions regarding PAD's personality and mindset and, frankly, I just don't think you've got the right, Michael. We can argue over the differences in the YJ/CM situations until we're blue in the face - that's fine - but why verbally attack him like this?

[quote]<strong>3-- Is this the part that you thought was being insulting?

"Nah, that was simply Marvel trying to bitch slap the uber popular PAD"

If it was, then keep in mind that I am simply playing with what PAD stated in the article:

"it's not as if Paul Levitz, Mike Carlin and Dan Didio got together and said, 'You know...Peter David's getting too popular. We must find a way to bitch slap him into shape. Hey! Let's cancel Young Justice"</strong><hr></blockquote>

But, clearly, PAD's just using that expression to point out that DC's treated him professionally on this occasion - I see no need to bring the Captain Marvel case into this at all as a comparison. At least not in the use of that phrase.

[quote]<strong>You see, when Marvel decided to increase CM by 25 cents, it was not in order to bitch slap PAD, either. Although he sure decided to make it personal, didn't he?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, no he didn't, IIRC. He just highlighted the situation publically as J & J are so keen on doing these days. Sure, Joe didn't appreciate it but he and Jemas can get a bit tetchy when the shoe's on the other foot I've noticed.

[quote]<strong>5--You are correct, the market is NOT healthy. I have not forgotten it. I say it all the time. However, great writers sell even in a depressed market. JMS is still selling over 40 000 copies of Rising Stars. The book had no recognizable characters when it started, it is brutally late, and has had average artists on it throughout. However, it still almost doubles PAD's books in regards to sales. Even in a depressed market. Why? The writing is great. Not good, not decent, not really ok. It is great. Period. (By the way, the writing is great for far more reasons than simply economic ones).</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I would argue that JMS is in the top 5 list of writers at the moment. Only 5 guys can be in that list. That's why it's a top 5 list. Understand? ;) Not everyone can be on that list, PAD included. At least not at the moment. Of course not everyone sells at those levels but like I said, JMS's a Top 5 guy. He does.

[quote]<strong>6--I never said PAD was not reliable or consistent. Heck, I have maintained throughout that he is a GOOD writer. I think he is, presently, better than Byrne.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank christ for that... ;)

[quote]<strong>However, that still does not make him a GREAT writer. YJ, Supergirl, and CM are good. They are not great.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And of course, you're entitled to your opinion. But it's the tone and some of the language whih I feel was unnecessary. That was the problem I had originally.

[quote]<strong>paulski, I respect your opinion, and hope you do not read what I wrote with "CAL is a zombie" glasses.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Believe me when I say I try not to. In fact, I don't. But when everything you generally comment on is weighted in defence of Marvel (or almost always, okay), it makes it hard.

Sorry, gotta go. I'm hella late!

[AForceOfOne]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter David:
<strong>

I'm told the third issue should be out within a week or so. As for the lack of inks, I think Cross' work actually looks better with it. I just think computer coloring has a bit of a learning curve built in.

PAD</strong><hr></blockquote>

You can say that again. I don't remember who's doing the coloring on Cap but my feelings are that if it isn't Isanove or, even more so, UDON doing the colors over pencils...forget it.

Especially Liquid. What they did on XTreme X-Men was just downright horrendous. See what alot of these people fail to realize is that coloring is not in photoshop. That's for the digital looking work like what was produced on FF a few years ago. Painter is where it's at. I mean hell...Painter is used on most if not all concept art. I personally would love to see all Painter interiors on a book.

Look at any of the covers UDON is producing and you'll see what I'm talking about. Look at the new Noto Cap Marvel cover. It speaks volumes. I'd also recomend Star Wars: The Art of Episode II just because most of that work was done in Painter and it's a space sage. Not the same as Captain Marvel in any way shape or form but you can see what can be accomplished space wise. Chris Chross is a very talented penciller and while the colors aren't bad right now...I think the direction, production wise, is way off. You get one of those people on this book and the art quality will increase 10 fold.

It's all about breaking new ground...then shattering people's expectations.

sorry for the long winded production rant. I'm a graphic designer and this is what I do and what I know.

[manosx]

I know it' stupid to post this far in, but I have to.

Young Justice is my favorite book in 20something years of collecting comics. Honestly. And the sadness here is that so many people will never realize all that this book had to offer. Peter, thank you for Arrowette's story, and for not turning your back on her. Thank you for Impulse's humor, better written here than anywhere. Thank you for defining Robin, my favorite character. Thank you for making me like Lobo/Slobo, which I would have swore would never happened. Thank you for making sure we never knew if the next issue would be fun, or if it would be scary in the dark. Thank you for having Superboy give back the arrow. Thank you for Fite N' Madd. Thank you for Robin's delusions on Apocolypse. Thank you for Impulse's fears. Thank you for Wonder Girl growing up. Thank you for Empress' secret id being revealed. Thank you for Impulses' lip reading skills. Thank you for Superboy NOT falling in love. Thank you for Secret. Thank you for Doiby. Thank you for making me realize that TAN is my favorite artist. Thank you for Max's comments on catfights. Thank you for catfights. Thank you for Red Tornado and Traya.
As has been said in YJ "This isn't funny anymore".
And now it wont be.
:( :( :( :( :(


P.S. Rockhammer, you tha man. Hope you remember me. You Rock.

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by Donald V. Calamia:
<strong>In a similar vane, I often have the following thought when I read threads similar to this one: how many of the people doing the "critiquing" are experienced, published writers themselves? Do they even have a CLUE what it takes to be a PROFESSIONAL writer? And better yet, a professional FREELANCE writer? Or even a professional freelance writer of MAINSTREAM COMIC BOOKS?</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Being a professional critic doesn't necessarily mean you're more objective about the material you review. CIP: CNN's Paul Tatara has a track record of totally despising 100% of all sci-fi movies, and on top of that 80% of everything on film unless its some lame-assed poorly-shot independent film. Most readers who follow such things equate him to the female sportscaster who Mary Richards hired on one episode of The Mary Tyler Moore show, who knew only the sport she won a gold medal in - swimming - and refused to acknowledge any other sports at all as being valid enough to report on. Tatara's reviews received so much negative e-mail that he had his e-mail link removed from his by-lines, which prompted every other CNN reporter to do the same.

Bottom line: Being in print doesn't automatically grant you expert status. It helps, but dosn't guarantee. If it did, the Hitler Diaries would still be in print...

[OM]

[quote]Originally posted by AForceOfOne:
<strong>Especially Liquid. What they did on XTreme X-Men was just downright horrendous. See what alot of these people fail to realize is that coloring is not in photoshop. That's for the digital looking work like what was produced on FF a few years ago. Painter is where it's at. I mean hell...Painter is used on most if not all concept art. I personally would love to see all Painter interiors on a book.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...Hear! Hear! And Painter does two other things better than Photoshop: superior tablet support and custom spray nozzling. I helped design Summagraphic's hooks into Painter, and even with a piece of junk like the SummaSketch III+ I could get really decent artistic response from the stylus. And the nozzles! Lord, if Jack Kirby had lived long enough to get into using the computer as an artist's tool, the collages he could have done with the custom nozzles would have made his clip art efforts pale by comparison!

Then again, with our luck, these kids aren't using even Photoshop, but either Paint Slop Pro or MS Paint...

[quote]Originally posted by paulski:
<strong>Unlike CAL, I'm not going to dignify your spiteful and immature little post with any sort of detailed or extensive reply. Because Christ knows, you're not worthy of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

...No shit. The interesting thing that I've noticed about the majority of PAD detractors is that they've yet to come up with anything that is nothing more than, well, this:

Anti-PAD: PAD Sucks as a writer.

Pro-PAD: Why does he suck as a writer?

A-P: Uh...well, his sales are low, and that's because he sucks as a writer!

P-P: Yes, but what sucks about his writing?

A-P: Uhm...well, it just sucks, that's all.

P-P: I don't see it. Can you clarify for me?

A-P: I don't need to clarify jack shit! PAD sucks, his writing sucks, his fans suck, and the only reason you can't see how bad PAD sucks is because you suck too!

...the scary part about this is that if your replace "PAD" with "DC", you get the same line of debate that happens when a Marvel Zombie is asked to explain his stance on DC.

Go figure.

[Donald V. Calamia]

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
<strong>

...Being a professional critic doesn't necessarily mean you're more objective about the material you review.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Professional critics are as equally adept at having their heads up their asses as anyone else. Some might argue that professional critics are MORE likely than their non-professional counterparts to find themselves in that position.

Just to clarify, however, in case there was some confusion: that wasn't my point. No where was I advocating that only "professional critics" can have valid criticisms about an author and his work. Quite the contrary. I was simply trying to make the point that it helps to have walked in someone's shoes before ripping him and his talent to shreads. It tends to lend your position a little more credibility.

Some of the people here and elsewhere on these boards make some wild accusations and assumptions without really knowing what they are talking about (i.e., the "real" inside scoop).

Those with some training, knowledge and experience as a writer - any kind of writer, not just of comics - have a better understanding - or perpective - of what goes into the development of a work of art, especially a collaborative effort like comics.

That insight, then, goes a long way towards developing informed and intelligent opinions about a published work.

For example (and this IS a hypothetical), Johnny reads YJ but dislikes the fact that PAD took Robin out of the series. So Johnny logs onto the boards and rips PAD a new oriface because he wants Robin to remain a member of YJ. Johnny goes into great detail about what a boneheaded decision this was and why PAD is a terrible writer for doing so. And Johnny will never read YJ or any other PAD series again to protest this horrible decision.

Sure, PAD's name is on the comic and he did indeed write the issue that has Johnny so upset, but PAD is not the only the person who has input to the story. There's the editor, for one, and the publisher for another. (And probably a few others, as well!) What Johnny doesn't know - or even care about, probably - is that Robin was removed from YJ as the result of a directive PAD received from "the powers that be". PAD could totally agree with Johnny's position, but as a profesisonal writer who is subject to the direction of management, he decides to comply with their wishes. (He also could have refused, quit or gotten fired after negotiations with his editor to see it HIS way failed.)

So things are not always as black and white as many people on these threads think they are.

People who work "freelance" and "work for hire" understand that. Some who don't, understand that as well. And some of the others? They don't care. They just want to bitch and complain, regardless of the facts.

[Graeme McMillan]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>Look, many of your comics are enjoyable. The question is whether or not they are great pieces of comic literature. Except for certain Hulk stories, most of your other stuff will never be comparable to great stories like Miller's Daredevil run and Dark Knight mini, Gaiman's Sandman, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Watchmen, JMS' Rising Stars, or Kevin Smith's Daredevil and Green Arrow (just to name a few.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Horses for courses, though. I know more than a few people who'd argue that "Rising Stars" and Kevin Smith's Green Arrow and Daredevil runs aren't comparible to any of the other series you mentioned above, for a start... And I know that I'd rather read PAD's Hulk run than any of JMS's stuff, given the choice...

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To Peter David: Well, what started out as a fun dialogue with you, has somehow turned nasty. That was totally not my intent from the beginning. I was quite happily engaging in a discussion about a subject I enjoy, voicing an opinion (which is, basically that I would like to see you do some main characters because I feel you do them better than you do anything else--although that got lost in the translation along the way), and interacting with a writer I am quite fond of, and have had two lengthy discussions with in person. So, allow me to apologize for any offense I have given. Along with the apology is my withdrawal from the discussion with you before it degenerates into some juvenile exchange of insults that further nothing.

Good luck to you, and please continue to produce your stories, since I enjoy reading them.

[eleven11]

I think PAD is a very good writer, you'd have to be ignorant to ignore the fact that he's been in the game for a while, putting out good material.

the thing that bothers me is that while it's great to have opinions, they seem personal, I need more than "the writer" sucks. personally, I don't care for the hulk, supergirl or captain marvell, but that's becasue I don't feel the charecters.

we have a lot of attachment to these books, but if we honestly believed that we could do better, we'd be writing them, and where not.

peace and good luck to you PAD,
My future will be making funnybooks also, I can't wait to read then delete the negative words I'll recive when I put my books out!

"it's comic books people, not politics or religion"

[comicsareliterature]

Hello.

To paulski: I hope the movie was enjoyable! :)

1--I was just teasing you.

2--He calls it a joke, and I believe him.

3--This was more in reply to what you said, to the "arrogance" that Mr. David lay claim to earlier in the thread, and to the way he treated the similar situations very differently. I was not trying to attack Mr. David's personality, just point out some discrepancies that I perceived. I was harsher than I should have been, but I like debating things, and try to "win" philosophical arguments. Sometimes, in my zeal for, and enjoyment of, debates I go too far.

4--I will not argue with you about how Mr. David dealt with the two situations. I will remind you that even Mr. Quesada felt personally insulted (at least it seemed so in his online writings) by the manner in which Mr. David handled the situation. I agree, you obviously don't.

5--That was my point. I was simply stating that on secondary and tertiary characters, Mr. David is not going to be a top 5 guy. However, if you put him on a primary book, his writing will shine, and he will be a top 5 guy. I was, and am, hoping that Mr. David would take a hint and lobby for a major player to write for his next project. Wow, did I ever blow that one.

Well, as always, I enjoyed your reply, and look forward to your next one. Take care... :) (Which movie was it?)

[Peter David]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>So, allow me to apologize for any offense I have given. Along with the apology is my withdrawal from the discussion with you before it degenerates into some juvenile exchange of insults that further nothing.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough. I think part of the problem is that when one is conversing in a soundless medium, inflection, tonality and intent are completely lost. So what is clear to you in your head when you're writing it gets completely lost when someone else is reading it without your voice in your head. God knows I've fallen victim to that enough times.

PAD

[Taylor Porter]

In the spirit of making amends, I'd also like to put forth an apology. My post on this thread was made quite hastily (and quite late at night), and I don't think that I really understood what Peter was trying to say. It seemed to me that he was just whining, but some of his later posts made his point clearer for me (even if I don't necessarily agree with it, I now have a better understanding of what he meant). I still stand by some of my comments, more or less, but I should not have directed them in such a way with such anger.

And I never said Peter's writing sucked, and I hope it didn't come off that way. Some of his stuff I'm not too crazy about, but I love some of his other stuff. I've condensed most of my library to trades, and there's only three runs (more than twelve issues)of comics in their "pamphlet" form that I own, and one of them is Peter's Incredible Hulk from 372-425.

Anyway, in my earlier post, I called Peter an ass, and that was unnecessary, and I probably came off as a bigger one. So, I sincerely apologize.

[Scott Wherle]

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:
<strong>Does it seem to anyone else that so much of this discussion -- not necessarily the phrases, but the subject matter itself -- is incredibly rude and presumptive?

I mean, people are dissecting Peter's career without knowing or seeing anything other than the finished product -- and often people chime in without even reading that. Show some class, people. Talk about the writing, not the writer.

Rob</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. Though, I'm trying to figure out why in the hell anybody's even talking about whether Peter is good or great. The original story at the beginning of this assinine thread deals with Peter's disappointment at being taken off a book he enjoys writing (damn, but I can sympathize) - that wasn't particularly selling poorly - in order to accommodate a cartoon that will have very little to do with the comic that's replacing YJ. This thread has needlessly become an attack on all of Peter's current, previous and future work.

Frankly, I give a rat's ass whether Peter is considered good or great. I enjoy a great deal of his work and that's all that matters to me. I don't particularly like humor books, but YJ is one that I do and it's because of Peter. I also enjoy Captain Marvel. I liked his runs on the Hulk and Aquaman. I dug his early Supergirl stuff, but lost interest after a while. My prerogative. I've never picked up Spy Boy or Soulsearchers and Company because the solicitations for them don't appeal to me. I'd pick up a new book by Peter, no matter the character, if it appealed to me. That's what ALL comic readers should do. If it doesn't appeal to you or you lose interest, either don't pick it up or drop it from your pull list.

I just don't understand the endless bitching of fans about every friggin' thing that hits the stands. It solves nothing. Editors don't read the letters or online rants of fans who bitch and go, "We ought to change the book's creative team or direction because so many people are bitching about it." Not unless they receive a vast amount more negative mail than they do positive. More often than not, if a lot of letters are written requesting to see a certain character or storyline, THAT is when a change occurs. Not, "Bitch, bitch, bitch, I hate this, that sucks, bitch, bitch, bitch, Peter David is only a good writer and not a great one, bitch, bitch, bitch, why are you including so many second string characters, bitch, bitch, bitch." Good lord, shut the hell up already.

THIS is what ruins comics. Despite what a certain pissed off British writer who shall remain nameless will tell you, it's not the 80s revival, not superheroes, not that readers are undereducated and not anything else. Ever wonder why it's such an insular little scene and can't break mainstream success like it once did? Your answer lies in this thread and others like it.

Back on topic, I'll miss YJ. I'll check out the new Titans book and while it may well be better received than YJ, it won't be YJ. I wish both Peter and Todd luck (not to mention the rest of the creative team) and will be looking out for their future projects.

[paulski]

[quote]Originally posted by comicsareliterature:
<strong>To paulski: I hope the movie was enjoyable! (Which movie was it?)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Overall, yes. I saw Red Dragon and, whilst I certainly thought it was a quality movie, the ending definitely disappointed me. I can't add any more to that without spoiling it for those who haven't yet seen it but I'll give it a high 8.

Personally, I liked Hannibal better.

[quote]<strong>1--I was just teasing you.
2--He calls it a joke, and I believe him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Cool. :)

[quote]<strong>3-- I was harsher than I should have been, but I like debating things, and try to "win" philosophical arguments. Sometimes, in my zeal for, and enjoyment of, debates I go too far.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough.

I really regret the fact that I had to rush my reply last night because I had no time to find the exact words I was after at times and some things came across better than others.

I guess my point is that when comics professionals take the time to come on these forums and reply to us fans, the last thing they should be subjected to is scorn and insults. Whilst not accusing you of going quite that far, I did feel you were cutting things a little close at times. That was my personal beef. On matters of personal taste and opinion, people are entitled to whatever view they wish, as is their right. But I'm glad to see that you and Peter are both cool with the matter so I'll say no more on it.

[quote]<strong>4--I will not argue with you about how Mr. David dealt with the two situations. I will remind you that even Mr. Quesada felt personally insulted (at least it seemed so in his online writings) by the manner in which Mr. David handled the situation. I agree, you obviously don't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay, now that I've got a little more time, I'll try to explain a bit better...

Firstly, the CM/U-Decide debacle. There's no doubt PAD pushed his luck here. Regardless of J & J's propensity (now there's a word I was try to get out last night!) for online insults and childish behaviour, they're still the boys in charge (sorta) at Marvel. For PAD to come out and act in the same fashion was dangerous and a little foolhardy, considering his position as (if not an employee, which he has argued against) a contractor for the company. It would have been within Joe's rights to sack him on the spot for going public - but thankfully he didn't. And after suffering through countless inane Jemas diatribes, I found the whole thing quite satisfying. :D

Now, for PAD (and me), one of the most important issues and reasons for responding in such a fashion, was that Marvel had decided to bump up CM by 25c and hadn't even had the decency to inform Peter of the decision. IIRC, he read about it online like the rest of us. That's not really good enough treatment towards the writer of a comic book, regardless of who they might work for. And as I've said before, the bumping up of the price went beyond simply being a 25c rise (which of itself is relatively insignificant) - it was an action that was guaranteed to kill the book within a year. No wonder PAD was pissed.

Alternately, DC made a decision to cancel a title. Unfortunately, it was Young Justice (well, to be honest, I didn't really care because I don't actually read it). They wanted to use some of the characters to relaunch the Teen Titans. This is their right. They informed Peter of the decision. He was unhappy he was losing the book but accepted the reasons for it, even if he didn't necessarily agree with them.

Now, there's a big difference between these 2 situations as far as I'm concerned. You may argue that's it's splitting hairs. If so, well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But that's why I think comparing CM and YJ is like apples and oranges.

[quote]<strong>5--That was my point. I was simply stating that on secondary and tertiary characters, Mr. David is not going to be a top 5 guy. However, if you put him on a primary book, his writing will shine, and he will be a top 5 guy. I was, and am, hoping that Mr. David would take a hint and lobby for a major player to write for his next project. Wow, did I ever blow that one.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would agree with a lot you've said here, actually. Whilst PAD remains one of my favourite comics writers, it seems his name no longer holds the same sort of attraction to a number of others. At least, not at the moment. Personally, I'd much rather read one of his books than anything by KSmith or Millar. In fact, I think PAD and Smith have several similarities in their writing styles, now that I consider it.

Everything is cyclical, Michael. There will hopefully come a time soon when Peter gets another headline book like Hulk, X-Factor or Spider-Man 2099 (great book - bring it back, guys!) and justice will be served. Until then, I guess he's gonna have guys like me telling everyone else how good he really is. ;)

[quote]<strong>Well, as always, I enjoyed your reply, and look forward to your next one. Take care... :) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Likewise.

Damn you, now you've killed my lunch hour... ;)

[eleven11]

THIS is what ruins comics.

i agree, i wanted spoiler to join the group. the arrowette storyline was also good. get todd & peter to do a spolier mini.

pad, do a spoiler proposal and I'll pencil it!

"i need work"

[Richard Werder]

I think I may have to take issue with PAD's attributing the success of writers like Kevin Smith and JMS(yeah, YOU spell it)to their bringing in "outside" readers, ie fans of their movie and tv work. I think their work sells because it's damn good, not because some guy liked "Dogma" and all of a sudden wanted to check out "Daredevil". Having a large fanbase outside of comics didn't help Clive Barker's comics any. And wouldn't the people who liked PAD's work on B5 or "Space Cases" or his "Star Trek" novels be buying his stuff?

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by Richard Werder:
<strong>I think I may have to take issue with PAD's attributing the success of writers like Kevin Smith and JMS(yeah, YOU spell it)to their bringing in "outside" readers, ie fans of their movie and tv work. I think their work sells because it's damn good, not because some guy liked "Dogma" and all of a sudden wanted to check out "Daredevil". Having a large fanbase outside of comics didn't help Clive Barker's comics any. And wouldn't the people who liked PAD's work on B5 or "Space Cases" or his "Star Trek" novels be buying his stuff?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>I'll have to take issue wihth
the idea that Kevin Smith's comic "work sells because it's damn good". I think Kevin Smith's work is mediocre at best (which is a far cry from terrible). The only single reason that DC hired him for Green Arrow and Marvel for Daredevil was only because his name would sell comic books, regardless of quality.

He has his strengths and weaknesses. Smith's DD run partially relied on Daredevil and various characters whining a lot and some choice sexual innuendo. It also used a good deal of meaningless shock value, such as the death of Mysterio (one of the Sinister Six for a different comic book franchise, and definitely a top-tier villain within that franchise) and the love interest of the Daredevil title, Karen Paige.

The massacre in a church was also... quite violent.

Green Arrow had some clever wit to it and characterization fodder, and the continuity was near spot-on thanks to <a href="http://scottmccullar.com" target="_blank">Scott McCullar</a> but there were moments that were off. The Black Canary Green Arrow sex scene was gratuitous and contained too many references to oral sex. The scene where a totally naked Black Canary bares herself to the entire Justice Society in order to break up a fight between GA and Hawkman as also wrong.

And Oliver Queen using a large harp to fire straight projectiles as weapons, like arrows, is too physically impossible even for fantasy, and just too cartoony.

I still enjoyed the Daredevil Guardian Devil run by it wasn't by any means 'damn good'. It was okay.</font>

[Richard Werder]

Yes, because using a bow to fire an arrow weighed down with a sixteen ounce boxing glove is COMPLETELY plausible. Too much oral sex? Didn't hear the Black Canary complaining.

[manosx]

As to wether or not Kevin Smith brings in readers just because they like his movies, well, yes he does. Kevin Smith fans are rabid in a way that you may not be aware of. They'll go buy a movie just because he produced it. They'll follow an actor around other movies because Kevin Smith likes him. Only a handfull of creators have inspired this blind trust. Alan Moore may be one for comics, Stephen King has it woth his readers, as does Anne Rice. Dick Wolf's Law and Order series does it on TV, The White Wolf "Worlds of Darkness" roleplaying line had it for awhile, and Ruch Limbaugh has his "Dittoheads". Jim Rome has his clones. So yes, a lot of KS fans who saw ALL his films opening night in the theaters have probably bought GA and DD and DEFINATLY bought his View Askew comics.

[Mike Tyler]

Personally, I would be like to see what PAD & ChrisCross could do with a certain Man of Steel. If I was a big shot @ DC I would offer them one of the Superman books! Could be interesting! It probably won't happen but I can dream can't I?

[The Blue Spider]

[quote]Originally posted by Richard Werder:
<strong>Yes, because using a bow to fire an arrow weighed down with a sixteen ounce boxing glove is COMPLETELY plausible. Too much oral sex? Didn't hear the Black Canary complaining.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>Actually <a href="http://scottmccullar.com" target="_blank">the guy who helped</a> Kevin Smith on the continuity contructed a functioning boxing glove arrow. He did it for <a href="http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fun+" target="_blank">fun</a>.

If you want to use a trick arrow example, the handcuff arrow probably wouln't work and I know Jack Kirby's heli-mirror arrow wouldn't even fit in a quiver.

But I'm saying that there's a difference between science fiction/fantasy elements that we're asked to swallow uncondionally and elements of slapstick that we're supposed to swallow unconditionally.

As for hearing Black Canary, I'm having trouble figuring out how you can hear a character when she only appears on paper in ink. <a href="http://scottmccloud.com" target="_blank">Scott McCloud </a> would be most annoyed with you.</font>

[Frankie Thirteen]

[quote]Originally posted by Richard Werder:
<strong>I think I may have to take issue with PAD's attributing the success of writers like Kevin Smith and JMS(yeah, YOU spell it)to their bringing in "outside" readers, ie fans of their movie and tv work. I think their work sells because it's damn good, not because some guy liked "Dogma" and all of a sudden wanted to check out "Daredevil". Having a large fanbase outside of comics didn't help Clive Barker's comics any. And wouldn't the people who liked PAD's work on B5 or "Space Cases" or his "Star Trek" novels be buying his stuff?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay, it's my first post, and it's coming after this has settled, but I wanted to say something and this seems like an appropriate point. You see, my friend Bekah is a huge Trek fan, mainly TNG. She also reads a lot of the novels, and maintains that Peter David's work is the best she's ever read. However, she isn't going to start looking for back issues of Incredible Hulk (something I actually suggested). That's not a slam at David at all. She has tremendous appreciation and regard for his work. However, Bekah just isn't into comics. Sometimes, a name just isn't enough to draw someone into another medium, especially with a character that doesn't receive first-tier attention.

That may or may not be the case with Kevin Smith, as he was able to take two second-tier characters and give them sellout books. What can I say, Ben Affleck used to sleep on his couch. It's different with JMS. Looking for his name to sell a book seems like a no-brainer now. Keep in mind, however, that he was coming from Babylon 5 and Crusade. Big deal to us, but I'm certain that if I asked 10 people on the street tomorrow if they'd ever heard of Babylon 5, no more than three would respond with a yes. I'm not trying to denigrate the show. I am saying that it is a series with a cult following. A devoted cult following, of course, but cult nonetheless. Not large enough to justify banking on him to send a book into multiple printings, unless it's a character like Spider-Man.

Many people are still simply ignorant of other media, especially comic books. That's all there is to it.

PAD, if you do return to this thread and see this, by any chance, then I wanted to tell you that (a) Bekah wanted me to tell you how much she enjoys your Trek novels and (b) the "Doctor Pooh" story you ran on your website a long while back brought a smile to my face.

[Richard Werder]

What, you mean you don't hear the characters talking to you? pssh. Freak. Oh, and thanks for the "fun" definition, blueboy. Now see if you can find "smug" for me.

[Kolimar]

I'm still sad about YJ. Such a great book. Sigh. :(

[Not From Around]

I read the first trade's worth of YJ a couple of years ago and found it a mixed bag. On the one hand, it was often LOL funny, something we haven't seen nearly enough of in superhero comics for a long time. On the other hand, it sometimes had a nasty edge (stuff like Harm graphically shooting Arrowette through the arm) of the sort we see far too much of. Wonder Girl's crush on Superboy (which also developed into something too serious later on) was cute. The camping issue was fun, and Red Tornado made a great foil. I also liked the scene in a later issue where Arrowette, told by the villain she was only bluffing when she threatened to use her crossbow on him, knocked him over the head with the bow. "I never said I'd shoot you with it!" There are dozens of funny lines I can remember from those few issues. Pretty sharp writing there.