SPECTRE OF THE PAST - AND FUTURE [Archive]

MattBrady

11-21-2002, 11:27 AM

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla1_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #1" border="0" align="right"></a>by Alex Segura Jr.

Hal Jordan has been through a lot the last few years, from top dog Green Lantern to psychotic mass murderer to DC's resident spirit of vengeance. Now, after overseeing Jordan’s tenure as the Spectre, J.M. DeMatteis is aiming to bring Hal back full circle in the two-issue, prestige format mini-series JLA/Spectre: Soul War beginning in December.

Together with artist Darryl Banks and editor Dan Raspler, DeMatteis will team Jordan with his former friends and colleagues. Given Jordan’s past actions, the meeting isn’t one at which there will be punch and pie.

From the outset, because the story isn’t a straight-up Spectre story, it wasn’t considered for inclusion in the ongoing series (which has now been cancelled). In the works for a while, Soul War was originally planned as a graphic novel, but later split into a two-issue prestige miniseries.

"This book was planned quite some time ago," DeMatteis said. "The reason for it not being part of the monthly book is simple: It's not a Spectre story, it's a JLA story featuring the Spectre. I've had JLA characters guest-star in the monthly but this is different. It's very much a big cosmic tale in the classic Justice League tradition...and, as such, needed its own venue."

The crossover tale will feature something readers of comics have grown familiar with: Aliens. But with a twist. "It's something never seen before in comics: an alien invasion," DeMatteis joked. "Okay, okay, so we've seen alien invasions before...but what's cool about this one is that is has nothing to do with starships and space battles. This is about an invasion of consciousness. A group-mind called the Trans is attacking every living thing on earth from within: mind by mind, soul by soul. And the attack is coming from another level of reality. So it's not a threat that can be stopped with a punch in the face or a blast of heat vision. And that's why the Spectre gets involved."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla3_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #1, page 10 " border="0" align="left"></a>While the alien invasion serves as the thrust of the story, the interaction between classic characters and former friends, like Hal Jordan and Superman makes for the most interesting aspect, according to DeMatteis.

"The character interaction is the heart of the story," DeMatteis said. “Hal/Spectre is an object of suspicion even to JLA members, like Superman, who wants to give him another chance. Hal screwed up and screwed up big. Betrayed all the ideals the JLA stands for. Now he's back as this strange, spooky spirit. How much can they believe him, how far can they trust him? Batman for one doesn't trust him at all...and the Hal-Batman relationship is the one that's explored the most in Soul War."

Having the Spectre interact with old friends like Batman and Superman made writing the story much more fun for DeMatteis. "I enjoyed writing Superman and Batman especially, since they're the icons of icons in the DCU," DeMatteis said. "And it's always fun to write Plastic Man. He's such a thoroughly entertaining character."

Looking from the mini to the soon to be defunct ongoing, DeMatteis is confident that the creative team behind the character managed to move Hal Jordan forward in his new role – one which, as par for the course, fans of both Jordan and the Spectre were skeptical of at first.

"I think the stories at the end of our run really move the character forward in what I think is a new way," DeMatteis notes. "Spectre #26, in particular, is an issue I'm extremely proud of. So, on one level, it feels complete. Yet Hal's journey was, in many ways, just beginning. His evolution both as a man seeking redemption and a spirit seeking to change the world can still be taken in so many wonderful directions. So there's some regret, yes. But after twenty-seven issues, great collaborators like editor Dan Raspler and artists Michael Zulli, Ryan Sook, Craig Hamilton, Lou Larosa and Norm Breyfogle. Well, I can't complain too much."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla4_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #1, page 17 " border="0" align="right"></a>Realizing that Hal Jordan was a viable character was reason enough for DC to have him take on the mantle of the Spectre after the spirit’s former host, Jim Corrigan moved on. Because of the many crimes he perpetrated at the end of his life, it seemed fitting, in a cosmic sense, to send Jordan on a quest to redeem himself.

"I think DC realized that Hal Jordan was too good a character to leave in limbo," DeMatteis said. "Making him the Spectre was one way of bringing him back without actually resurrecting him. The Spectre connection also allowed the character to directly deal with some of the horrible things he did, as Hal Jordan, toward the end of his life. The guy was a murderer, after all -- and you couldn't just bring him back, give him a ring, and send him out into the world as if nothing ever happened."

Of course, DeMatteis faced a daunting challenge when taking the reins of the Spectre: Green Lantern fans wanted Hal Jordan fans as GL and Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan. "I think one of the problems we faced was that the Hal Jordan fans wanted their old Green Lantern back," DeMatteis said. "The Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan stories...so we were constantly walking an edge - and occasionally falling off it - between those two camps. There was also the fact that Hal was previously a super-hero...and The Spectre is not, nor was it ever, a super-hero book. So I think many people had their expectations confounded. I also think there were certain people that so objected to the Hal-Spectre fusion that nothing we could do would please them."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla2_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #2" border="0" align="left"></a>"That said, and given the parameters of the series, I was generally allowed to write the stories I wanted to. Yes, I occasionally threw in elements to please those old school diehards - the recent Sinestro storyline was certainly meant for them - but I could never betray my basic vision of the character. Bottom line: I got to tell some stories I was proud of and make some, I hope, worthwhile statements about Life, the Universe, and Everything. Not a bad gig! Instead of focusing on why were cancelled, I choose to celebrate the fact that, in the current market, we hung around for more than two years."

As it was for some fans, and having grown up with the Jim Corrigan version of the Spectre, DeMatteis had problems accepting Hal Jordan as the Spectre at first. "It was hard for me in the beginning!" DeMatteis exclaimed. "I wondered if the book would have worked better if we'd just taken some new, unknown character and turned him, or her, into the Spectre. Then we could have moved forward without all of Hal's baggage. That said, once I started working on the series, I saw all the potential for great stories in the Hal Jordan Spectre. And that potential has hardly been tapped -- so I think there's a great future ahead for the character."

Frank

11-21-2002, 11:39 AM

I'll be checking this out. DeMatteis and the JLA is always a great combination.

DC really dropped the ball with Hal Jordan and needlessly abused the character. But I think Dematteis has done much to redeem him.

RotSman

11-21-2002, 11:41 AM

The Spectre failed, in my view, because it SHOULD have been a Vertigo book. Take the reins off! SHOW what Hal did that was so bad, and show what the Spectre does as the Spirit of Vengeance!

I think that Hal/Spectre is better than no Hal/no Spectre...it might be interesting to see the character in either more of a mainstream role or a totally Vertigo-esque setting.

Matt

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 11:41 AM

If DC really cared about Hal Jordan, they wouldn't bother with redeeming him, but rather EXHONORATING him of all wrong doing. It wasn't Hal. It could never have been Hal. Anything less is unacceptable.

Jim Corrigan should be Spectre.
Hal Jordan should be Green Lantern.

That is the natural order of things.

Act of God

11-21-2002, 11:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:

Jim Corrigan should be Spectre.
Hal Jordan should be Green Lantern.

That is the natural order of things.<hr></blockquote>
Said the person who still believes trousers should only be worn by men...

cncoyle

11-21-2002, 11:47 AM

While I'm a born-again "Hal as Green Lantern" fan, I must admit that nearly every story featuring the new Spectre has been great, especially the issue of JLA after Judgement Day. (Side note: Is it "judgment" or "judgement"?) I'll take Hal any way I can get him, I guess...

Kevin T. Brown

11-21-2002, 11:52 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Jim Corrigan should be Spectre.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I definitely agree with that statement!

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Hal Jordan should be Green Lantern.<hr></blockquote>

And, no, Hal Jordan should be dead. He was Green Lantern as was Abin Sur was before him.

BoyWonder

11-21-2002, 11:57 AM

I reckon that DC didn't use Hal properly at all. If he was going to be bad then they should have made him bad for a good long while. He could have become the ultimate tragic villian. A kind of Dr Doom character for DC.

This Spectre business strikes me as a bit of a halfway house and doesn't have any real direction. Either exhonerate Hal of all wrong doing and make him a GL or keep him bad. If DC bring him back then create a new corps. Kyle Rayner is a very lame character.

aphterburn

11-21-2002, 12:02 PM

Hal Jordan can not be exhonorated, because Hal Jordan did it. He is a murderer. He is not Green Lantern anymore. Cut the crap with the "Hal would never do that". He did do it. Period.

P.S. Hal did it.

gwangung

11-21-2002, 12:07 PM

The Spectre is Jim Corrigan?

Ah, no. After Ostrander's definitive series, there's no way a Jim Corrigan Spectre would ever work for me. Now, another character, with a different set of hangups...that would work well...and probably in the Vertigo universe...

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 12:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Act of God:

Said the person who still believes trousers should only be worn by men...<hr></blockquote>

Excuse me? Just because I prefer classic comics and characters doesn't make me some kind of woman bashing sexist. You insult me. There is a difference in PROGRESS and what DC has done to the legacy of its classic characters. I am not against change, but I despise change for change's sake. It there had been one iota of logical progression in what they did to Hal, I wouldn't be nearly as opposed to what happened. Hal was the best GL, PERIOD. Anyone else is just a second rate replacement. I think you should consider your opinion more before attacking someone's social beliefs on a comic board.

P.S. Personally, I think women look good in pants and business suits. It's those frilly dresses I can't stand.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 12:31 PM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
Hal Jordan can not be exhonorated, because Hal Jordan did it. He is a murderer. He is not Green Lantern anymore. Cut the crap with the "Hal would never do that". He did do it. Period.

P.S. Hal did it.<hr></blockquote>

HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him. He's seen entire planets get wiped out before, and he's supposed to break down and cry over one city? None of his loved ones were even there at the time! And the way the Guardians reacted to his grief was toatlly off base. "Can't use your ring for personal things." Yeah, you're not supposed to, but he did it all the time and they never said squat. If Ron Marz had acctually bother to ever read Green Lantern books, he would have known that.
It is in fact tha logical thing to assuem he didn't do it. It only makes sense.
It could easily be an evil twin, clone, robotic doppelganger, mind control, etc. So many opportunities are out there. HAL must return.

P.S. Hal Did NOT do it! And I will never believe that he did.

saiyanspider

11-21-2002, 12:41 PM

i don't see what the big deal is hal jordon sucks he's dead, he's the spectre end of story. kyle rayner and john stewart kick butt end of storry II

EvolutionBaby

11-21-2002, 01:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him. He's seen entire planets get wiped out before, and he's supposed to break down and cry over one city? None of his loved ones were even there at the time! And the way the Guardians reacted to his grief was toatlly off base. "Can't use your ring for personal things." Yeah, you're not supposed to, but he did it all the time and they never said squat. If Ron Marz had acctually bother to ever read Green Lantern books, he would have known that.
It is in fact tha logical thing to assuem he didn't do it. It only makes sense.
It could easily be an evil twin, clone, robotic doppelganger, mind control, etc. So many opportunities are out there. HAL must return.

P.S. Hal Did NOT do it! And I will never believe that he did.<hr></blockquote>

I should hope the writers made him do it, after all, we are talking about a work of fiction are we not?

Choose whichever side you wish on this matter, I loved Hal as GL, but the changes were made, and I learned to deal with them. Kyle is just fine as GL now, and I enjoy Hal being the Spectre. I wish the ongoing hadn't failed, but there were too many times in the book where I felt bored by the stories rather than entertained. I will say the Sinistro story that just wrapped up was a step in the right direction, and I will look forward to picking this book up.

BriRi

11-21-2002, 01:12 PM

HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him.

And who was it that made him a hero....oh that's right. Writers.

Hal did do it, in as much as any CHARACTER does anything in a work of FICTION, just like he did all the heroic things before he went nuts. Making it a clone or evil twin...well THAT would be a horrible story.

Please get over it.
Your hatred for all things Non-Hal are causing you to miss some pretty decent stories.

SpaceDog

11-21-2002, 01:22 PM

The Spectre failed because DeMatteis wrote it horribly. The concept could have made for an excellent book if garbage wasn't spewed forth month to month. I'm surprised it lasted this long without a writer change or cancellation. Blech.

Too bad. Wasted concept.

SpaceDog

11-21-2002, 01:23 PM

[quote]HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him.<hr></blockquote>

You really ought to read or watch Misery.

samnoir

11-21-2002, 01:26 PM

I was always surprised that the Ostrander/Mandrake Spetre series didn't make the transition into Vertigo like all the other Mature Readers books.

J.M. DeMatteis' creator owned work like Moonshadow and Greenberg the Vampire is fantastic stuff, I hope he has an opportunity to pursue more non-superhero stuff in the future.

Looking forward to his collaboration with Keith Giffen on the Formerly Known as the Justice League series.
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Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 01:30 PM

[quote]


And who was it that made him a hero....oh that's right. Writers.

Hal did do it, in as much as any CHARACTER does anything in a work of FICTION, just like he did all the heroic things before he went nuts. Making it a clone or evil twin...well THAT would be a horrible story.

Please get over it.
Your hatred for all things Non-Hal are causing you to miss some pretty decent stories.<hr></blockquote>

First of all, the writers who made HAL a hero are not involved in this. The fact is, many of them at the time of the coup were blackballed from the industry and couldn't get work. (If you can find a copy, check out Gerard Jones's book "The Comic Book Heroes").

Secondly, I do not hate all things Non-HAL. I do hate Kyle Rayner, but not because he isn't HAL. I hate him because he is no hero. He is ignorant, selfish, and cowardly, all things a Green Lantern is not supposed to be. I don't have any problems with John or Guy.

As a charachte, HAL was treated shamefully. And, yes, I do care about what happens to him. Is that so wrong? People say "It's just a comic, it's fictional." I don't understand how these people can be comic fans al all. I care a great deal about the heroes who set an example for me and the rest of the world. They used to stand for something. What lessons does Kyle Rayner teach us? If you get super powers, you can sleep with super heroines? That's the only message I ever got out of it. HAL stood for something, something near and dear to my heart. I am saddened more and more every day that I endure his loss.

I am less concerned about a horrible story and more concerned with the end result. who cares if it's cheesey as long as it works? I have missed no decent stories, because none have been told. I stuck with GL until issue 80 or so after the end of HAL. I found the books to be bland and the character to be unlikeable. Where was all the majesty, the cosmic significance? It was gone, snuffed out like HAL was. I just didn't like it.

I will not get over it. No true comic fan would. It is my duty to defend what I believe in and to convince DC to make things right for the good of the world.

Icewing_X

11-21-2002, 01:32 PM

As much as I like Banks' art, I'll pass on this one. I just have no interest in either The Spectre or Hal Jordan.

~Icewing, great art, though, truly

BLACK

11-21-2002, 01:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by EvolutionBaby:


I should hope the writers made him do it, after all, we are talking about a work of fiction are we not?

Choose whichever side you wish on this matter, I loved Hal as GL, but the changes were made, and I learned to deal with them. Kyle is just fine as GL now, and I enjoy Hal being the Spectre. I wish the ongoing hadn't failed, but there were too many times in the book where I felt bored by the stories rather than entertained. I will say the Sinistro story that just wrapped up was a step in the right direction, and I will look forward to picking this book up.<hr></blockquote>

I completely agree with your statement on the whole Jordan/Rayner issue. I also wish that the ongoing had not been canceled as I enjoyed it as well up to the point where Ryan Sook left the book. I was planning on picking it back up once there was change in the artistic direction. I just haven't been that big a fan of Norm Breyfogle's art since he left Detective a long time ago and I enjoyed it immensely with Sook's sense of great storytelling and design. I enjoyed his work on B.P.R.D. and look forward to the Arkham mini-series.

peace.

Gelogurte

11-21-2002, 01:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by RotSman:
The Spectre failed, in my view, because it SHOULD have been a Vertigo book. Take the reins off! SHOW what Hal did that was so bad, and show what the Spectre does as the Spirit of Vengeance!<hr></blockquote>

I agree! The problem I had with Spectre it's because it was not a super hero book and it was not an Vertigo book. It was trying to be both and failing on both (that's just my opinion).

And people... stop talking about comic book characters like if they were actual people. It's really creepy! The characters goes to a certain point. After that, it's all about the writer! That's what editors are for! If Hal Jordan killed the GL Corps, he freaking did it! It's not some evil plot from the "evil masterminds of Marvel that replaced Hal with one of the Peter Parker clones".

Oh, and these alien things look like that monster Beholder from Dungeons & Dragons.

Frank

11-21-2002, 01:38 PM

I thought the whole storyline where Hal had his nervous breakdown and then became a murderer was indicative of everything bad about mid-ninties comics. Creatively, the storyline had potential but the result was dross.

But it's allowed for the character to grow. THE SPECTRE is a good read and I think it's going to be really cool to see Hal and the JLA together again not because I want to see Hal as a Green Lantern ever again (not that I'd complain, mind you), but simply because the characters have all grown. The interaction will be interesting.

As much as I believe that Hal Jordan was the most defiled and abused character in DC's long history, DeMatteis has taken the mess and turned it into something worthwhile. He's allowed the character to grow and that is much more imporant to me than picking up an issue of Green Lantern and seeing that Hal Jordan has been up to the same shit he's been up to fifty years or whatever.

The Big Red 1

11-21-2002, 01:43 PM

I love Hal Jordan...always have. GL-Hal Jordan has always been one of my favorite characters.

Did I like what happened to Hal? No. Did I like what happened to Barry Allen? No, again. I didn't like it when barry was killed in the Crisis, but it was a noble, heroic death and DC has wisely allowed Barry to rest in peace.

Hal's trip over the edge was unfortunate. DC made a good move with The Final Night where Hal was able to redeem himself by sacrificing himself to save the world. DC should have let Hal rest with Barry. This Spectre nonsense has been ridiculous.

Incidentally since I'm talking about dead characters...why oh why did they have to ressurrect Ollie? I know Dc wanted to let Kevin Smith write one of his favorite caracters (and the first 12 of those issues were pretty good), but this new book will probably be cancelled before the end of 2003.

Lex

11-21-2002, 01:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SpaceDog:
You really ought to read or watch Misery.<hr></blockquote>

Ha! That's brilliant! I never thought to connect rabid "Bring back Hal as GL" fans to that insane lady from Misery.

Y'know... it fits. ;)

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 01:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Gelogurte:


And people... stop talking about comic book characters like if they were actual people. It's really creepy! The characters goes to a certain point. After that, it's all about the writer! That's what editors are for! If Hal Jordan killed the GL Corps, he freaking did it! It's not some evil plot from the "evil masterminds of Marvel that replaced Hal with one of the Peter Parker clones".<hr></blockquote>

By "People" I'll assume you mean me.

Yes, I know the blame lies solely with the writers and editors at DC. I am proposing ways for them to fix it and make it acceptable to the legions of disenfranchised HAL fans out there. A clone would be perfectly acceptable in comic book terms. He does not have to have done it. I do not accept what happened because the people involved put no thought or care into what they were doing. It is disgraceful that a writer (Marz) would even take a job writing a book that he admitted that he never liked or read. He just wanted to change it and piss people off. It's not too late to fix it.

Is it so wrong to care so much about a fictional character? I love what HAL stood for, a man with iron will and a never say die attitude. He was a hero. He was my hero. I do know he's not real, but the way in which he affected people's lives is. It does matter, and I'm sorry that there are so many people who can't understand that.

As former Batman editor Jordan B. Gorfinkel used to say,
"May The Good Guys Live Forever."

There is no reason why they can't.

11-21-2002, 03:35 PM

[quote]JM "Moon Knight Still Sucks" DeMatteis blathered in an attempt to rationalize his failure with Spectre"I think DC realized that Hal Jordan was too good a character to leave in limbo," DeMatteis said. "Making him the Spectre was one way of bringing him back without actually resurrecting him. The Spectre connection also allowed the character to directly deal with some of the horrible things he did, as Hal Jordan, toward the end of his life. The guy was a murderer, after all -- and you couldn't just bring him back, give him a ring, and send him out into the world as if nothing ever happened."<hr></blockquote>

...Then it's time for DC to admit they screwed up, and make it right by the fans by dumping Crab Face Guy and putting Hal back where he belongs - as a Green Lantern. As for Hal being a murderer, there's been a loophole all along in this debacle since the story arc just prior to his getting editorially screwed over.

One word, kids: ergono.

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 03:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Big Red 1:
I love Hal Jordan...always have. GL-Hal Jordan has always been one of my favorite characters.

Did I like what happened to Hal? No. Did I like what happened to Barry Allen? No, again. I didn't like it when barry was killed in the Crisis, but it was a noble, heroic death and DC has wisely allowed Barry to rest in peace.

Hal's trip over the edge was unfortunate. DC made a good move with The Final Night where Hal was able to redeem himself by sacrificing himself to save the world. DC should have let Hal rest with Barry. This Spectre nonsense has been ridiculous.

Incidentally since I'm talking about dead characters...why oh why did they have to ressurrect Ollie? I know Dc wanted to let Kevin Smith write one of his favorite caracters (and the first 12 of those issues were pretty good), but this new book will probably be cancelled before the end of 2003.<hr></blockquote>

I don't really like Judd Winnick or his writing but he's quite popular. The title will last for quite awhile I am sure.

can1

11-21-2002, 03:52 PM

Well the Kyle character not withstanding, what the editors and writers did to Hal is basically unforgivable. Before they even turned him into a mass murderer it was deemed necessary to turn him into a delinquent. The take on this was that by making Hal flawed and no longer a man without fear it made GL and his newly reconed history much more interesting. All it proved to me was that this particular editor and the writer did not have the ability to tell a good Hal/GL story. The character wasn't flawed, the editor was flawed. This is the same editor that imagined Aquaman looking much cooler with a gladiators shoulder armor.

The point is that Hal could have easily just given up being GL after the loss of Coast City. This aspect of his character had been explored in the past. It would not have been much of a stretch for Hal just to say 'thats it, I'm done with this, whats the point'. Far more interesting scenario in my than the cheesey 'multiplex cinema' character. Given the current taste for more 'real time' characters, Hal with a ring, but without the name and costume wandering around from place to place would be a great book.

As I stated earlier I have no beef with Kyle fans. Although I see him as a DC 'Marvel' type character, I can live with him as long as Hal was the senior statesman.

The Spectres untapped potential after the Ostrander/Mandrake series was that this could be anyone. You could clearly have a new Spectre every few years. Just imagine. DC couldn't!!

I hope that somewhere out there is the talent to undo all the harm thats been done. Give us back what was lost and you can keep you little caroon boy GL.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 03:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by OM:


...Then it's time for DC to admit they screwed up, and make it right by the fans by dumping Crab Face Guy and putting Hal back where he belongs - as a Green Lantern. As for Hal being a murderer, there's been a loophole all along in this debacle since the story arc just prior to his getting editorially screwed over.

One word, kids: ergono.<hr></blockquote>

Thanks, OM. I was starting to think I was the only one out here fighting the good fight. I'll have to look at this loophole you're talking about. I've had several theories myself and any number of them would work fine. Most of mine stretch way back into the olden days and I never scrutinized the more recent books.

Did you ever read what Gerard Jones was planning to do with GL 50? He actually had 48 and 49 written when DC just fired him. It was going to be a big war between the Corps and a separatist group of Lanterns and Guardians. Hal was going to absorb the power and become "Protector" and the Zamarons were going to give birth. You can see the original advertisement for "Emerald Twilight" in some books of the time. Sounded like it would have been a cool storyline.

Like or hate Kyle Rayner, there can be no defense of what DC did to the real people who worked on Green Lantern before the coup. Kevin Dooley made a power play and Gerry and the others didn't deserve to be treated the way they were. They couldn't get work for years. It's a disgrace.

can1

11-21-2002, 04:04 PM

I didn't want to name Dooley, but glad you did.

Funny story was when his Aquaman book came out a bunch of customers at St Marks comics were standing around goofing on his new look. Who do you think was standing behind this group (myself included). Dooley. He actually tried to defend the look. We told him it was CRAP.

I say just restart the DC universe every ten years or so. Purge away all the trendy characters (ie Vibe) and tell stories that are faithful in message if not necessarily in detail like Robinson's Starman. Build the mechanism for future change into a current blockbuster and start fresh. Just shake it up every ten years or so - just that simple.

TRaik

11-21-2002, 04:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by samnoir:
I was always surprised that the Ostrander/Mandrake Spetre series didn't make the transition into Vertigo like all the other Mature Readers books.<hr></blockquote>

I seem to recall that the question "Why isn't the Ostrander/Mandrake Spectre series published under the Vertigo imprint?" came up reasonably often, and that Ostrander would occasionally comment that if it were a Vertigo book, it would have to have a different editor, and that he preferred working with the editor (Raspler? Tomasi? I can't remember...) that would be assigned to the book if it remained outside of the Vertigo imprint...

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 04:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
I didn't want to name Dooley, but glad you did.

Funny story was when his Aquaman book came out a bunch of customers at St Marks comics were standing around goofing on his new look. Who do you think was standing behind this group (myself included). Dooley. He actually tried to defend the look. We told him it was CRAP.

I say just restart the DC universe every ten years or so. Purge away all the trendy characters (ie Vibe) and tell stories that are faithful in message if not necessarily in detail like Robinson's Starman. Build the mechanism for future change into a current blockbuster and start fresh. Just shake it up every ten years or so - just that simple.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I will say this for Dooley, he never backed down from a fight. He actually used to respond to my letters and defend the decisions he made. He'd send me things too, like little pins and stuff, like bribery would win me over. Honestly though, most editors wouldn't go to the trouble. His favorite defense was "We told a good story." I guess that's relative, huh? It's too bad that that's all he cared about, like so many fans. I try to convince people its not just about the story, it's about an ideal. Dooley's ideas were just trendy nonsense.

Of course, let's not lay the blame in one place. Mike Carlin and Denny O'Neil had their say in it too. It seems like once Archie Goodwin passed on, those two just went nuts and ransacked the DCU (Anyone remember Knightfall? Thanks, Denny.). It's too bad that there's not someone in charge down there who could really clean house.

Taylor Porter

11-21-2002, 04:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
The Spectres untapped potential after the Ostrander/Mandrake series was that this could be anyone. You could clearly have a new Spectre every few years. Just imagine. DC couldn't!!
<hr></blockquote>

Without taking sides in the whole Hal/Kyle thing, I think that what you said applies even better to Green Lantern. The whole GL concept seems like wish-fulfillment to me ("A regular guy, just like you, gets a ring that lets him do anything!"). I think the fact that the title was about one guy for almost forty years is kind of a waste. I think it would be neat to see a variety of people with the ring, to see different takes on having that much power. They could tell a lot of different kinds of stories, and I think that could appeal to a lot of people. After decades of one heroic, perfect and flawless hero with the ring, it gets a little dull.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 05:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:


Without taking sides in the whole Hal/Kyle thing, I think that what you said applies even better to Green Lantern. The whole GL concept seems like wish-fulfillment to me ("A regular guy, just like you, gets a ring that lets him do anything!"). I think the fact that the title was about one guy for almost forty years is kind of a waste. I think it would be neat to see a variety of people with the ring, to see different takes on having that much power. They could tell a lot of different kinds of stories, and I think that could appeal to a lot of people. After decades of one heroic, perfect and flawless hero with the ring, it gets a little dull.<hr></blockquote>

That title wasn't about one guy for forty years. It was about 3600 guys. The Green Lantern Corps. That's one of the things that I hate so much about the Kyle era. We used to get a REAL VARIETY of characters and see what they would do with the ring. GL's were never "Regular Guys." They were all different and unque characters, fearless and courageous. There was one classic Corps story by Alan Moore that featured a GL from a planet where the people had no eyes. They could not see, and therefore had no concept of what light was. Since the GL ring uses light to make its constructs, he couldn't comprehend how it worked. So, the Guardians made him a bell, and he used sound waves, a concept he understood, to make solid constructs. These are the kinds of brilliant sci-fi stories that were swept aside to turn GL into another run of the mill action book. What a shame.

SpaceDog

11-21-2002, 05:31 PM

[quote]I know Dc wanted to let Kevin Smith write one of his favorite caracters (and the first 12 of those issues were pretty good), but this new book will probably be cancelled before the end of 2003. <hr></blockquote>

Bet you cash money it won't. Meltzer's run has been great so far, and Winick is going to heat that book up even further. I expect sales to increase, not decrease.

northern soul daz

11-21-2002, 05:32 PM

Brian,

I am in total agreement with you.

Of all the characters to smash to pieces, why did DC pick on Hal Jordan ?
Would they have done it to Bruce Wayne or Wonder Woman ?
I doubt it very much.

To make matters worse, DC tried to make up for the mistake they knew they had made by getting Hal to make one last noble sacrifice....and then bring him back as a good guy by making him the new Spectre.
Give me a break !

Once they had made the (bad) decision to turn Hal into a bad guy, they should have stuck with the idea and used him as a great guilt ridden villain.
They couldn't even get that right !

If the people at DC had actually thought about what the consequences would be for the GL universe, they would never have gone through with it.
IMHO messing with Hal was seen as a big money earner, and that is all.
No care was given about the future.

How would I bring back Hal ?

I'd turn Kyle Rayner into a murdering madman (like Hal was).
Just before the JLA beat his brains out, I'd have Rayner beg for forgivness, and as a last act of redemption......will Hal back to life with his GL ring.

And I'd get Guy Gardner back as a GL....and Gnort.
Both much better characters than Kyle.

drgoodhead

11-21-2002, 05:35 PM

"Of course, DeMatteis faced a daunting challenge when taking the reins of the Spectre: Green Lantern fans wanted Hal Jordan fans as GL and Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan. "I think one of the problems we faced was that the Hal Jordan fans wanted their old Green Lantern back," DeMatteis said. "The Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan stories...so we were constantly walking an edge - and occasionally falling off it - between those two camps. There was also the fact that Hal was previously a super-hero...and The Spectre is not, nor was it ever, a super-hero book. So I think many people had their expectations confounded. I also think there were certain people that so objected to the Hal-Spectre fusion that nothing we could do would please them."

"That said, and given the parameters of the series, I was generally allowed to write the stories I wanted to. Yes, I occasionally threw in elements to please those old school diehards - the recent Sinestro storyline was certainly meant for them - but I could never betray my basic vision of the character. Bottom line: I got to tell some stories I was proud of and make some, I hope, worthwhile statements about Life, the Universe, and Everything. Not a bad gig! Instead of focusing on why were cancelled, I choose to celebrate the fact that, in the current market, we hung around for more than two years."

I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!!!! i had to register to voice my displeasure with the above statement by JMD. the guy is basically ADMITTING that they messed up, that they were not writing to suit EITHER audience, but they still did it because they could??!!?? waste 2 whole years and then blame it on the market??!!

dc really has a lot of money to waste.i hope JMD is happy now that his mortgage is paid off.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 05:46 PM

[quote]Originally posted by northern soul daz:
Brian,

I am in total agreement with you.

Of all the characters to smash to pieces, why did DC pick on Hal Jordan ?
Would they have done it to Bruce Wayne or Wonder Woman ?
I doubt it very much.

To make matters worse, DC tried to make up for the mistake they knew they had made by getting Hal to make one last noble sacrifice....and then bring him back as a good guy by making him the new Spectre.
Give me a break !

Once they had made the (bad) decision to turn Hal into a bad guy, they should have stuck with the idea and used him as a great guilt ridden villain.
They couldn't even get that right !

If the people at DC had actually thought about what the consequences would be for the GL universe, they would never have gone through with it.
IMHO messing with Hal was seen as a big money earner, and that is all.
No care was given about the future.

How would I bring back Hal ?

I'd turn Kyle Rayner into a murdering madman (like Hal was).
Just before the JLA beat his brains out, I'd have Rayner beg for forgivness, and as a last act of redemption......will Hal back to life with his GL ring.

And I'd get Guy Gardner back as a GL....and Gnort.
Both much better characters than Kyle.<hr></blockquote>

I appreciate the support. The sad truth is that DC would no doubt make a fortune if they brought HAL back. With someone like Kurt Busiek at the helm, they would no doubt have an extreme increase in sales. Hopefully proects like Secret Origins and Liberty and Justice will help them see the light.

Oh, and G'NORT RULES! "A Guy and his G'nort" is one of my all time favorites. In all the furor over HAL, we sometimes forget that there were so many other characters who were ruined in that story. I hope to see them again.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 05:48 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SpaceDog:


You really ought to read or watch Misery.<hr></blockquote>

That is REALLY funny.

Rob

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 05:51 PM

[quote]Originally posted by drgoodhead:
"Of course, DeMatteis faced a daunting challenge when taking the reins of the Spectre: Green Lantern fans wanted Hal Jordan fans as GL and Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan. "I think one of the problems we faced was that the Hal Jordan fans wanted their old Green Lantern back," DeMatteis said. "The Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan stories...so we were constantly walking an edge - and occasionally falling off it - between those two camps. There was also the fact that Hal was previously a super-hero...and The Spectre is not, nor was it ever, a super-hero book. So I think many people had their expectations confounded. I also think there were certain people that so objected to the Hal-Spectre fusion that nothing we could do would please them."

"That said, and given the parameters of the series, I was generally allowed to write the stories I wanted to. Yes, I occasionally threw in elements to please those old school diehards - the recent Sinestro storyline was certainly meant for them - but I could never betray my basic vision of the character. Bottom line: I got to tell some stories I was proud of and make some, I hope, worthwhile statements about Life, the Universe, and Everything. Not a bad gig! Instead of focusing on why were cancelled, I choose to celebrate the fact that, in the current market, we hung around for more than two years."

I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!!!! i had to register to voice my displeasure with the above statement by JMD. the guy is basically ADMITTING that they messed up, that they were not writing to suit EITHER audience, but they still did it because they could??!!?? waste 2 whole years and then blame it on the market??!!

dc really has a lot of money to waste.i hope JMD is happy now that his mortgage is paid off.<hr></blockquote>

DC published because they could. J.M. DeMatteis wrote it because he could not do otherwise. It was an assignment. For enough money I'd write Kyle Rayner as a morphing chicken man. And Wonder Woman would be the farmer's wife slash love interest while Jade is plucked, beheaded, and cooked for dinner.

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 05:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by drgoodhead:


I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!!!! i had to register to voice my displeasure with the above statement by JMD. the guy is basically ADMITTING that they messed up, that they were not writing to suit EITHER audience, but they still did it because they could??!!?? waste 2 whole years and then blame it on the market??!!

dc really has a lot of money to waste.i hope JMD is happy now that his mortgage is paid off.<hr></blockquote>

DC published because they could. J.M. DeMatteis wrote it because he could not do otherwise. It was an assignment. For enough money I'd write Kyle Rayner as a morphing chicken man. And Wonder Woman would be the farmer's wife slash love interest while Jade is plucked, beheaded, and cooked for dinner.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 06:00 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


I care a great deal about the heroes who set an example for me and the rest of the world. They used to stand for something. What lessons does Kyle Rayner teach us? If you get super powers, you can sleep with super heroines? That's the only message I ever got out of it.

<hr></blockquote>

Then you're not a very careful reader. The Kyle GL character is all about growing into your responsibilities -- an important lesson, I'd say.
Sleeping with superheroines may stick in your craw, but it's not what the comic is about.

There ARE lessons in the GL comic, but you don't want to find them.

Rob

(As for Hal as the Spectre, I always thought it was a clever idea, but not really my cuppa tea. The few stories I read only reinforced my opinion.)

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:11 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


. For enough money I'd write Kyle Rayner as a morphing chicken man. And Wonder Woman would be the farmer's wife slash love interest while Jade is plucked, beheaded, and cooked for dinner.<hr></blockquote>

This is what's wrong with the industry. Too many writers make it all about the money. What happened to the integrity? What happened to the love? That's just sad.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:
[QB]

Then you're not a very careful reader. The Kyle GL character is all about growing into your responsibilities -- an important lesson, I'd say.
Sleeping with superheroines may stick in your craw, but it's not what the comic is about.

There ARE lessons in the GL comic, but you don't want to find them.

[QB]<hr></blockquote>

It sure is taking him a HELL OF A LONG TIME to grow into any responsibility. He's still the arrogant, selfish, jerk Ron Marz created him to be (he admitted this), and has had no character growth at all. The first thing he did with the ring was use it to get back with his old girlfriend. Personally, I wish they'd keep the bedroom scenes out of comics. Anyway, I don't think a new costume counts as growth. They have never tried to make Kyle anything but a screw up. Ron Marz said that you weren't supposed to like him or be like him. That's what annoys me the most.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 06:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


It sure is taking him a HELL OF A LONG TIME to grow into any responsibility. He's still the arrogant, selfish, jerk Ron Marz created him to be (he admitted this), and has had no character growth at all. The first thing he did with the ring was use it to get back with his old girlfriend. Personally, I wish they'd keep the bedroom scenes out of comics. Anyway, I don't think a new costume counts as growth. They have never tried to make Kyle anything but a screw up. Ron Marz said that you weren't supposed to like him or be like him. That's what annoys me the most.<hr></blockquote>

You're not supporting your argument about lack of character growth. The first thing he did when he got the ring is hardly evidence -- the growth has to come after that. And you simply saying he's an arrogant, selfish, jerk doesn't make it true. Even Ron Marz saying it doesn't make it true. the evidence has to be in the stories.

I don't agree that he is -- at the the conclusion of the Ion story, he sure seemed like a responsible, well-adjusted guy. And the current storyline (where he's left Earth) is about coming to grips with the things he *can't* do, and is not responsible for. Another good lesson, IMO.

But I only read it periodically. You might know some more recent incidents where Kyle's behaved irresponsibly. Either way, it's not worth getting worked up over.

Rob

Hdefined

11-21-2002, 06:40 PM

"HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him. He's seen entire planets get wiped out before, and he's supposed to break down and cry over one city? None of his loved ones were even there at the time! And the way the Guardians reacted to his grief was toatlly off base. "Can't use your ring for personal things." Yeah, you're not supposed to, but he did it all the time and they never said squat. If Ron Marz had acctually bother to ever read Green Lantern books, he would have known that.
It is in fact tha logical thing to assuem he didn't do it. It only makes sense.
It could easily be an evil twin, clone, robotic doppelganger, mind control, etc. So many opportunities are out there. HAL must return.
P.S. Hal Did NOT do it! And I will never believe that he did. "

oh
my
god

. . .

it always breaks my heart when I read about people who have these kinds of delusions involving things of fantasy. Plus, this argument has gone on for almost 10 years, and it's time for some people to GET OVER IT.

Hal Jordan was a LAME, BORING, UNBEATABLE, UNLOVABLE hero before they made him nuts. It was only after the fact, when writers started doing flashback books like JLA Year One and such, that he started to become interesting. I would know, I read the bulk of GL Vol.2 #1-#47. It was, I don't know, HORRIBLE. #48-#50 may not have been the slickest, most well-written story ever, but it was damn interesting. I'd much rather have interesting "hero goes nuts" stories than boring "hero always wins" stories.

Writers made him a hero. Writers (not just one) made him a villain. It's all the same. He's NOT REAL. Deep breath, say it with me: NOT REAL. Batman used to smile a lot. Spider-man was a clone. Superman had a mullet. The Thing was replaced by a female Thing. IT HAPPENS. IT HAPPENED. It's history, and it's in the past.

You know what? If your favorite hero gets killed off because readers, writers, and editors all think they're boring as hell, it might be time for you to wake up and move on and just stop reading the damn book. I loved Deadpool. They made him a sissyboy named Alex with a big X on his face. I stopped reading, and I didn't complain. I liked Deadpool, the rest of the world didn't. End of story

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:


You're not supporting your argument about lack of character growth. The first thing he did when he got the ring is hardly evidence -- the growth has to come after that. And you simply saying he's an arrogant, selfish, jerk doesn't make it true. Even Ron Marz saying it doesn't make it true. the evidence has to be in the stories.

I don't agree that he is -- at the the conclusion of the Ion story, he sure seemed like a responsible, well-adjusted guy. And the current storyline (where he's left Earth) is about coming to grips with the things he *can't* do, and is not responsible for. Another good lesson, IMO.

But I only read it periodically. You might know some more recent incidents where Kyle's behaved irresponsibly. Either way, it's not worth getting worked up over.

Rob<hr></blockquote>

Well, I stopped reading a long time ago, but I never saw any indication of things getting better. He never bothered to learn anything about the history of the ring, what it could do. He never bothered to train, or practice. He never bothered to check on planets outside of his own. I often wonder how many people have died because a Green Lantern wasn't there to help them. He soes not respect his power or the role he has been cast in (or stolen, from my point of view).

Of course, most of what I hate about Kyle I also see in most other super heroes these days. They don't practice at their trade. They are superheroes. They are supposed to be better than regular people. They have to be when everything's on the line. When was the last time the JLA trained together (and Batman beating up on them every once in a while doesn't count)?

Superheores need to be icons, and Kyle Rayner is not an icon. HAL was an icon. He represented something noble and storng. That's what I miss about comics, and when you love comics as I do, then getting all worked up over it can't be helped. I don't have a choice in what I do. I care more about this than most of you will ever understand, and, someday, I will see it set right.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:

oh
my
god

. . .

it always breaks my heart when I read about people who have these kinds of delusions involving things of fantasy. Plus, this argument has gone on for almost 10 years, and it's time for some people to GET OVER IT.

Hal Jordan was a LAME, BORING, UNBEATABLE, UNLOVABLE hero before they made him nuts. It was only after the fact, when writers started doing flashback books like JLA Year One and such, that he started to become interesting. I would know, I read the bulk of GL Vol.2 #1-#47. It was, I don't know, HORRIBLE. #48-#50 may not have been the slickest, most well-written story ever, but it was damn interesting. I'd much rather have interesting "hero goes nuts" stories than boring "hero always wins" stories.

Writers made him a hero. Writers (not just one) made him a villain. It's all the same. He's NOT REAL. Deep breath, say it with me: NOT REAL. Batman used to smile a lot. Spider-man was a clone. Superman had a mullet. The Thing was replaced by a female Thing. IT HAPPENS. IT HAPPENED. It's history, and it's in the past.

You know what? If your favorite hero gets killed off because readers, writers, and editors all think they're boring as hell, it might be time for you to wake up and move on and just stop reading the damn book. I loved Deadpool. They made him a sissyboy named Alex with a big X on his face. I stopped reading, and I didn't complain. I liked Deadpool, the rest of the world didn't. End of story<hr></blockquote>

I have stated before that I know it is fiction. That does not mean that it can't touch our lives in a meaningful way. Have you everey loved anything, and had it ripped away from you? that's how a feel, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You may have htought HAL was boring. But there are many people who did, and they did not deserve what happened. GL Vol. 2, 1-48 are hardly the standard by which to judge HAL, though I liked them (and I'm sure Gerard Jones appreciates your respect). The real definitive material comes before that - the Silver Age stuff. That is what I'll always love.

And I did stop reading the book, but I didn't stop caring. I want to be able to read and enjoy Green Lantern every month, but thanks to some short sighted editors, I can't do that. Do you think what happened to Deadpool was fair to the fans who supported the book all that time. I sure as hell don't, and I'd be mad as hell. Fight for your book. Everyone needs a cause. Maybe one day, Kyle will get one too.

aphterburn

11-21-2002, 07:00 PM

Pathetic.

That's really the only word I can use to describe some of these silly Hal-hangers-on. Pathetic. First, I will adress the peoplel that say the story made no sense. Bullshit. It made perfect sense. "Hal had an iron will, blah, blah." That cookie-cutter, stone-jawed hero crap is exactly why he went insane. (And why the writers did it in the first place, but I'll get to that). He was so damn occupied with being a noble, perfect, honorable hero that when he couldn't even save his OWN city, he snapped. End of story.

Secondly, this whole "the writers made him do it is nonsense". Of course the writers made him do it. The writers have made him do everything he ever did. Hal became 1,000 times more interesting AFTER Emerald Twilight than he EVER was before. Do you know why?

I'll tell you why. This brings me back to the writers....AND the bottom line. Hal Jordan, quite frankly, in all due respect was BORING. Mr. I'm A Great And Noble Green Lantern was lame, and people got sick of it. Go ahead DC, cave in to these hangers-on. You'll see an initial sales spike and then a sharp decrease in interest in this guy. Three things and three things only have happened in Hal's entire existence that have been interesting....the side of his hair turning grey, him going nuts, and him becoming the Spectre.

I'm sick of this crap that everyone shovels on Kyle Rayner. Kyle Rayner's first year as Green Lantern was more interesting than the prior thirty years. Know why? Because Kyle is a human being with human friends and human problems. He has gay friends (do you think Hal would), he asks for help when he's in over his head (which a normal person would do), and he reacts like a guy off the street would react, given his situation. That's why GL sells now. Because the MAJORITY of people want a hero they can relate to, not one who stand above them all the time (we have Superman for that).

Don't EVER tell me that Kyle is a coward. Kyle was out minding his own business and got handed a ring by a blue alien. Since then he's saved the world over and over (naturally) and gained even MORE power than Hal STOLE and gave it up on purpose.

If you guys loved Hal so much, you should've bought his book as it lay in the gutter. Then maybe, they would've stuck with the boring hero you all adore so much. Instead they chose SALES. You know....money, dinero. They weren't picking on Hal. Hell, they tried to appease you by redeeming him 12 times, and even making him the Spectre, but that wasn't good enough.

It's been 10 years. Stop bitching. Stop whining. Then again....bitch and whine all you want.

TTROY

11-21-2002, 07:19 PM

I have to agree....Pathetic... this is so sad.
Hal is dead get over it.
Hal is the spetre deal with it......and please get a life and stop taking these things so seriously.....god damn.

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 08:53 PM

Hal isn't dead any more than he was ever alive.

Emerald Twilight was a poorly-written story which took a sensible, sane space cop super hero character and rewrote him as a man so unstable than when his former home was destroyed, and his brother killed, along with several hundread acquaintances and millions of strangers also killed he flew off and murdered his closest friends and surrogate family.

Let me say write this again. He killed those he loved the most because a large number of people he hardly knew in a city he did not live in anymore all got destroyed in a ball of flame. And his brother died.

Then for a replacement we get a cypher of a character named Kyle Rayner. He was either a rebel and a jerk... or someone with a noble soul. He was either destined to be a great Green Lantern because he knew fear (Grant Morrison) or he was just he everyman with a ring. Maybe he was both. Ron Marz said that Kyle was the only GL because the character itself was too weak to stand if other characters with similar powers were being published simultaneously by the same company. No one ever said that about Batman or the Flash.

Kyle was an artist who could not operate the ring without imagining a construct with which to work through. He want to pick something up he needed hands or a glove or a detailed metal pinchers or a giant robot or something. That was according to Ron Marz and Grant Morrison. He was also this hesitant little dweeb that we the readers used as a surroage to see the iconic JLA.

Under his newest writer, Judd Winnick, the character can manage telekinesis, language translation, and other feats of competency with the ring than he ever could before.

Either he's evolved, been rewritten by godhood, or Kyle Rayner is a cypher.

Hal Jordan sold for as long as he did because he could sell. When sales lagged there was a rotation. They added plot devices (Green Arrow), banned him from earth, created a substitute (John Stewart) and assmebled the Corps on Earth and other things each time sales have lagged.
Sometimes it worked.

Every time Hal was brought back.

Hal Jordan has a certain characterization and he was written out of it. Generally this is what people mean when they say that the writer forced him to do it. It means that it feels unnatural. It means that it wasn't the writer thinking about how the character would work so much as it was the writer thinking about what he could make the character do.

Hal was going to be replaced anyway. But it was editorial fiat and Ron Marz that had him and the Corps killed and thus using the "no resurrections in comics" and the "let death be death in comics" groups of comics fans as a veritable reader army to block any returns.

Quite frankly the evil twin idea is the best way to bring Hal back only because there really is no way to redeem on earth such heinous crimes; Parallax killed billions. It's also the easiest way because otherwise there'd have to be a weak story to explain why Hal was acting so out of character.

One could say Hal was boring. Then so is Superman and Batman.

One could say I am pathetic. One could get punched in the teeth if one was saying it to my face.

One in fact could get a whole bunch of people together in a room and tell them that they were all pathetic one by one and wait to see what would happen.

One could call people pathetic on the internet where it's nice and safe and your anonymity and distance could protect you from the web-surfers he's insulted.

Or one could simply apologize before he is publicly declared an ass by a poster like myself, but not myself, who opts for cowardice and would stay anonymous.

Taylor Porter

11-21-2002, 08:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
That title wasn't about one guy for forty years. It was about 3600 guys. The Green Lantern Corps.<hr></blockquote>

That may be true, but Hal was still the main star of the book for decades. Most of the other GLs were aliens, which kind of detaches me from the wish-fulfillment thing I was talking about (Kyle's neat, because you think "that could've been me!", not something you think about when you see Tomar-Re). Even counting John, Guy, Alan and whoever else, there were less than a dozen human GLs. I still think that is kind of a limited way of depicting the idea of a Green Lantern. I would like to see more "real people"-type characters get a GL ring, if even only for a while.

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
When was the last time the JLA trained together (and Batman beating up on them every once in a while doesn't count)?<hr></blockquote>

A little off topic, but the JLA doesn't need to train. They're the world's greatest heroes! If the heroes weren't already the best, they wouldn't be on the team. Besides, I've gotten a little sick of seeing teams training amongst themselves. It gets a little tiring and unnecessary after a while. If you've seen one Danger Room sequence, you've seen 'em all.

Danilo Raul

11-21-2002, 08:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


Excuse me? Just because I prefer classic comics and characters doesn't make me some kind of woman bashing sexist. You insult me. There is a difference in PROGRESS and what DC has done to the legacy of its classic characters. I am not against change, but I despise change for change's sake. <hr></blockquote>

Screw legacy. i mean Hal wasn't all that great, the only decent comics i've seen from him are the o'neal/adams Green Lantern and Green Arrow, the Waid penned stories about him with Barry kitson in "JLA year 1" and "Barry and Hal" and that's about it, plus you are just beating a horse that is so dead that it stinks.

Hal wiped out everything, he did it,read Green Lantern #50 (a great read by the way!) he's a fictional comic book character who belongs to a souless corporation who cares shit about you and those geeks at HEAT or whatever they are called these days. Kyle has done such a nice job being Green Lantern that you forget about this. i did, i just sit back and enjoy his specter stories all the way.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 09:04 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:

Hal Jordan was a LAME, BORING, UNBEATABLE, UNLOVABLE hero before they made him nuts. It was only after the fact, when writers started doing flashback books like JLA Year One and such, that he started to become interesting. I would know, I read the bulk of GL Vol.2 #1-#47. It was, I don't know, HORRIBLE. #48-#50 may not have been the slickest, most well-written story ever, but it was damn interesting. I'd much rather have interesting "hero goes nuts" stories than boring "hero always wins" stories.

<hr></blockquote>

You put your finger on something interesting there. Hal used to be a much bmore interesting character than he was when it was decided he should go nuts (a bad decision, I believe). But I belive you're right about GL Vol.2 #1-#47. I don't know if it was horrible, but it was certainly lackluster. (I stopped reading around issue 20, but it didn't seem like it was getting any better.) And the person to blame for that isn't Hal, no more than Kyle isn't to blame for his book being not to a lot of fan's tastes. Nope, the fault should lie with Gerard Jones.

Ron Marz didn't make the decision -- he just wrote the story his editors asked for.

The editor (Dooley and whoever else had a hand in it) aren't completely to blame, either -- sales were probably low and they had to do something to get them higher. And while I'd argue they could have thought of something better, it was the 90s, and flawed heroes were sure-fire sellers, then.

But Gerard Jones -- he drove Hal into the ground with one dull story after another, so that driving him nuts and killing him was an option.

Dooley ordered the hit and Marz fired the gun, but Jones dug the grave and dared them to fill it.

Rob

Taylor Porter

11-21-2002, 09:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:

Ron Marz said that Kyle was the only GL because the character itself was too weak to stand if other characters with similar powers were being published simultaneously by the same company. No one ever said that about Batman or the Flash.
<hr></blockquote>

Not at DC, maybe, but I'll certainly say it. Green Lantern, Flash and Batman have all turned me off because of the large groups of characters in their respective titles that are similarly powered.

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
One could say Hal was boring. Then so is Superman and Batman.
<hr></blockquote>

Now you're catching on. These characters ARE boring.

COREMARK

11-21-2002, 09:13 PM

The last time I truly enjoyed a Hal as Green Lantern story was the "Emerald Dawn" miniseries. I think the past 2 years of Green Lantern written by Winick and starring the most hated man in the DCU (Kyle) has been great. I think if some of you guys actually read the new stuff and gave Kyle a chance you would appreciate him as a hero a lot more.

aphterburn

11-21-2002, 09:43 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
Hal isn't dead any more than he was ever alive.

Emerald Twilight was a poorly-written story which took a sensible, sane space cop super hero character and rewrote him as a man so unstable than when his former home was destroyed, and his brother killed, along with several hundread acquaintances and millions of strangers also killed he flew off and murdered his closest friends and surrogate family.

Let me say write this again. He killed those he loved the most because a large number of people he hardly knew in a city he did not live in anymore all got destroyed in a ball of flame. And his brother died.

Then for a replacement we get a cypher of a character named Kyle Rayner. He was either a rebel and a jerk... or someone with a noble soul. He was either destined to be a great Green Lantern because he knew fear (Grant Morrison) or he was just he everyman with a ring. Maybe he was both. Ron Marz said that Kyle was the only GL because the character itself was too weak to stand if other characters with similar powers were being published simultaneously by the same company. No one ever said that about Batman or the Flash.

Kyle was an artist who could not operate the ring without imagining a construct with which to work through. He want to pick something up he needed hands or a glove or a detailed metal pinchers or a giant robot or something. That was according to Ron Marz and Grant Morrison. He was also this hesitant little dweeb that we the readers used as a surroage to see the iconic JLA.

Under his newest writer, Judd Winnick, the character can manage telekinesis, language translation, and other feats of competency with the ring than he ever could before.

Either he's evolved, been rewritten by godhood, or Kyle Rayner is a cypher.

Hal Jordan sold for as long as he did because he could sell. When sales lagged there was a rotation. They added plot devices (Green Arrow), banned him from earth, created a substitute (John Stewart) and assmebled the Corps on Earth and other things each time sales have lagged.
Sometimes it worked.

Every time Hal was brought back.

Hal Jordan has a certain characterization and he was written out of it. Generally this is what people mean when they say that the writer forced him to do it. It means that it feels unnatural. It means that it wasn't the writer thinking about how the character would work so much as it was the writer thinking about what he could make the character do.

Hal was going to be replaced anyway. But it was editorial fiat and Ron Marz that had him and the Corps killed and thus using the "no resurrections in comics" and the "let death be death in comics" groups of comics fans as a veritable reader army to block any returns.

Quite frankly the evil twin idea is the best way to bring Hal back only because there really is no way to redeem on earth such heinous crimes; Parallax killed billions. It's also the easiest way because otherwise there'd have to be a weak story to explain why Hal was acting so out of character.

One could say Hal was boring. Then so is Superman and Batman.

One could say I am pathetic. One could get punched in the teeth if one was saying it to my face.

One in fact could get a whole bunch of people together in a room and tell them that they were all pathetic one by one and wait to see what would happen.

One could call people pathetic on the internet where it's nice and safe and your anonymity and distance could protect you from the web-surfers he's insulted.

Or one could simply apologize before he is publicly declared an ass by a poster like myself, but not myself, who opts for cowardice and would stay anonymous.<hr></blockquote>

It eases your boyscout Hal Jordan loving mind to think that Emerald Twilight was just a poorly written story and a disservice to a fictional character. Nah. The truth is, is was a progression, and a logical one at that. It is completely illogical for Hal Jordan, square jawed hero to all to go insane? Newsflash buddy, people go insane all the time for lesser reasons than being unable to save millions of people, much less NOT being able to save millions of people. You just don't like to have your precious hero knocked off his ficticious pedestal.

Is Batman boring? NO. Batman is more complex that any comic book Superhero in existence. Is Superman boring? He can be, but in the hands of the right person, no, he is not. Superman is SUPPOSED to be a boyscout....the biggest one there is, and stories are crafted around that. He's not a third tier quasi-hero.

And, am I supposed to be scared now? I suppose one could call you pathetic. Am I supposed to be afraid that you're gonna hunt me down and and punch me and/or decare me an ass? After that diatribe, I will state my opinion on you. You ARE pathetic. I'd say it to your face if you were standing in front of me. Gimme your phone number and I'll call you up and tell you.

I hope DC never brings Hal back as Green Lantern. Meanwhile, I hope his little soldiers keep fighting the good cause so i can laugh at you while I go read Green Lantern. I mean the REAL Green Lantern.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 09:50 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


Well, I stopped reading a long time ago, but I never saw any indication of things getting better. He never bothered to learn anything about the history of the ring, what it could do. He never bothered to train, or practice. He never bothered to check on planets outside of his own. I often wonder how many people have died because a Green Lantern wasn't there to help them. He soes not respect his power or the role he has been cast in (or stolen, from my point of view). <hr></blockquote>

I didn't read his initial issues, so I don't know: was he told he should be checking out other planets and patroling the sector (or heck, since he was the only GL, the whole universe)? What sort of background was he told when he was given the ring? I'm not sure if Kyle is the one to blame for this (even discounting that it's a fictional universe). Shouldn't it lie on Ganthet's head for not briefing him? (Like I said, i'm just assuming.)

Also, Hal Jordan spent a whole lot of time on Earth, too, when he had a whole sector to guard. So much that the Guardians spanked him for it once or twice.

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Superheores need to be icons, and Kyle Rayner is not an icon. HAL was an icon. He represented something noble and storng. That's what I miss about comics, and when you love comics as I do, then getting all worked up over it can't be helped. I don't have a choice in what I do. I care more about this than most of you will ever understand, and, someday, I will see it set right.<hr></blockquote>

Heck, I love comics. Probably in a completely different way than you, but they're one of my favorite things in the world. And I agree with you on a number of points:

1) Hal got a raw deal, and should never have gone nuts like that.

2) Hal is not a boring character. (He did, however, have the misfortune of being in a lot of boring stories late in the game.)

But Hal's completely out-of-character turnaround has resulted in some interesting stories and situations for the DCU. The fallen hero is an fascinating archetype to play with, and I'm glad there's one around to read stories about. I wish it wasn't Hal, but at least they're making lemonade out of lemons. (Although they're doing it by hand, since the ring won't work on lemons.)

Rob

howler

11-21-2002, 09:58 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
[QB]If DC really cared about Hal Jordan, they wouldn't bother with redeeming him, but rather EXHONORATING him of all wrong doing. It wasn't Hal. It could never have been Hal. Anything less is unacceptable.

I agree and there is an out for dc on this one.while at this moment i don't really want to dig through my issues of Action Comics when it was a weekly... Hal Jordan as Green Lantern was featured in that book.... In a story arc I think written by Peter David we might have a plausable explanation of why it couldn't be,never could have been Hal..go look it up.....

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 12:24 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:


It eases your boyscout Hal Jordan loving mind to think that Emerald Twilight was just a poorly written story and a disservice to a fictional character. Nah. The truth is, is was a progression, and a logical one at that. It is completely illogical for Hal Jordan, square jawed hero to all to go insane? Newsflash buddy, people go insane all the time for lesser reasons than being unable to save millions of people, much less NOT being able to save millions of people. You just don't like to have your precious hero knocked off his ficticious pedestal.

Is Batman boring? NO. Batman is more complex that any comic book Superhero in existence. Is Superman boring? He can be, but in the hands of the right person, no, he is not. Superman is SUPPOSED to be a boyscout....the biggest one there is, and stories are crafted around that. He's not a third tier quasi-hero.

And, am I supposed to be scared now? I suppose one could call you pathetic. Am I supposed to be afraid that you're gonna hunt me down and and punch me and/or decare me an ass? After that diatribe, I will state my opinion on you. You ARE pathetic. I'd say it to your face if you were standing in front of me. Gimme your phone number and I'll call you up and tell you.

I hope DC never brings Hal back as Green Lantern. Meanwhile, I hope his little soldiers keep fighting the good cause so i can laugh at you while I go read Green Lantern. I mean the REAL Green Lantern.<hr></blockquote>

Geez-louise, what a load of unsupported hoo-ha.
"You are this. He is that. This is what. You love this character. Give me your phone number so I can pledge my undying love to you oh logical arachknight."

No way, man. I ain't fallin' for that trick. you want to date someone you go on with your own kind.

What some people will do for a guy's phone number, now that is pathetic!

------

Unsupported arguments are generally the most unworthy to argue against.

Which basically means that I have no counterargument to "you'll hunt me down" other than I won't. I also have no counterargument to "he's the most complex hero ever" or "he's not boring because he is supposed to be a boy scout and stories are crafted around that."

Now I remember why I haven't gotten into an iternet flaming match since 1999. I'm not mean enough to be good at it.

Hdefined

11-22-2002, 12:41 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:


You put your finger on something interesting there. Hal used to be a much bmore interesting character than he was when it was decided he should go nuts (a bad decision, I believe). But I belive you're right about GL Vol.2 #1-#47. I don't know if it was horrible, but it was certainly lackluster. (I stopped reading around issue 20, but it didn't seem like it was getting any better.) And the person to blame for that isn't Hal, no more than Kyle isn't to blame for his book being not to a lot of fan's tastes. Nope, the fault should lie with Gerard Jones.

Ron Marz didn't make the decision -- he just wrote the story his editors asked for.

The editor (Dooley and whoever else had a hand in it) aren't completely to blame, either -- sales were probably low and they had to do something to get them higher. And while I'd argue they could have thought of something better, it was the 90s, and flawed heroes were sure-fire sellers, then.

But Gerard Jones -- he drove Hal into the ground with one dull story after another, so that driving him nuts and killing him was an option.

Dooley ordered the hit and Marz fired the gun, but Jones dug the grave and dared them to fill it.

Rob<hr></blockquote>

Yes, this is my point. I wasn't around to read all the silver age stuff. I'm sure it defined him as a great character, but TIMES CHANGE. Spiderman, for instance, got married, thus ending his "every man" relatability. Flash died too, but I don't see people whining about that one.

Anyway, I only starting picking up GL with Volume 2 because that was just my timing, and I personally thought it was lame. Maybe they COULD have done more interesting things with the character, but the point is that, with everyone involved, no one did anything interesting. No lightbulb. Lackluster sales. Red light.

So they did the typical 90's thing and took a complete left turn. Except, unlike Superman Blue, Spider-clone, and Bat-azreal, they didn't undo this one. That's fine, because I kind of like Kyle. I don't read GL right now, but I read it on and off for a good 60 issues.

People complain that Kyle isn't as heroic, doesn't train, is too reliant on the ring. The thing I like about Kyle is this: if he hadn't been given the ring, would he still have been a good, responsible person? Maybe the ring was a thrust of responsibility and morality on his shoulders, and forced him to reassert his values. Maybe he would have been trash if he hadn't gotten it. I like that. It's building a hero from the ground up. Hal was always "the chosen one", they knew from the start he was gonna be a great guy. But Kyle, it was a gamble. To me, that's a hero

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 12:43 AM

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 01:09 AM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


Actually Jones wanted to set aside Hal and create a less continuity-heavy GL for his own stories and so he can have freedom to tell stories. But for 47 odd issues editorial limited his freedom. Kevin Dooley pretty much smooshed 'im. Then when Jones wrote up his storyline to set aside Hal and get his own GL he was pushed aside so Hal could permanently gone, along with the Corps.

Well, don't believe me. Believe
<a href="http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing39/iview.shtml" target="_blank">Gerard Jones.</a> <---- click that stinking link to an interview!<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the link, Spider. The ideas he expresses in the interview sound really interesting; I wish he had a chance to follow through on more of them. (And it's interesting that he might have been replacing Hal, too.)

Did Jones write GL: Mosaic? That's the only GL series from around that time that I still recall fondly. It was definitely too hip for the room.

Rob

aphterburn

11-22-2002, 02:12 AM

John Osen

11-22-2002, 02:38 AM

I think that in a straight-out combat, Cap would win at least 9 of 10 times.
He is at least as fast as Batman, if not faster, and is quite a bit
stronger. In addition, due to the Super Soldier Serum, he does not suffer
the effects of fatigue, and he is more resistant to injury than a normal
human being. Then there is his shield. Cap is as skilled with that
wonderful offensive/defensive weapon as anyone in any comics universe is
with their weaponry. Despite being trained in a wider range of martial arts
techniques, Batman really doesn't stand a chance in straight combat with Cap
- Cap has all the edges. :eek: batman is scared!

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:06 AM

I don't really know about Cap vs Bats.

We're talking ten different matches and all.

You list Cap's skills and abilities awfully well. If Captain America and Batman were fighting without their respective weapons and armor I do believe that Captain America would take the win in 6 out of 10 falls.

If the warriors had their armor and weapons, however, Batman would more likely win in 7 out of 10 matches. His skills are superior, his experience equevelent, and his physical capabilies are slightly less than Cap. He also has long range weaponry that can remove nearly all of Cap's senses and has several weapons that can't effectively be blocked by the shield.

Basically we can take some of the Star-Spangled Avenger's most capable human foes and amp them up to get Batman.

Of course, neither character could win easily.

But is the Spectre judging this match?

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:10 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:


For the record, I never threatened to punch anyone.<hr></blockquote>

If you really look at my words, neither did I.

shakey

11-22-2002, 03:20 AM

Why is it cool to have a bunch of new retro stories of Hal as GL, but NEVER any new Jim Corrigan Spectre stories?

I vote for a Vertigo JC/Spectre mini series with Jim Aparo doing the art (covers at least) like he did in Adventure Comics in the 70's (are my wrinkles showing?)

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:38 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
[QB]

Here's how I support my argument. Superman is still Kal-El from Krypton. Batman is still Bruce Wayne. Green Lantern is Kyle Rayner, not Hal Jordan. What else do I need to support my side?

QB]<hr></blockquote>

Proof that Hal Jordan wasn't Green Lantern for over 40 years in the comics. Evidence that I can't find more Hal Jordans than Kyle Rayners in back issues boxes.

Heck, if I turn on the TV John Stewart is Green Lantern, not Kyle Rayner. Hal Jordan was Green Lantern for multiple television seasons on his own program and on the various incarnations of the Super Friends.

Kyle Rayner was in one episode of Superman and was drawn to look an awful lot like Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan was even mentioned in the episode in the background.

Looking at DC Direct figures one can find Kyle Rayner. But one can also find Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, Tomar Re as Green Lantern, and Kilowog as Green Lantern.

The trade paperback Green Lantern: Traitor, has three Green Lanterns on the cover.

Green Lantern: Fear Itself had five Green Lanterns in it. It had three chapters, each being portrayed as the present day of the time.

Who or what is Green Lantern? There is no one answer. But those who've watched a lot of TV won't say Kyle Rayner. Those who started reading GL since issue 50 should say Kyle Rayner and those who have been reading for quite a bit longer might just say Hal Jordan. And why would they say that? Is it because they've gotten into screaming matches and the practice of writing death threats in order to get their hero back? No. They just have not read enough Kyle Rayner comics to change their minds.

Heck, I'm just waiting for Hal Jordan to come back as GL not so much because that's my preference but because I believe him to be more commerically viable than Kyle Rayner. Why? There's more Hal Jordan crap out there than Kyle. I am writing to anyone telling them to agree with me or in a call to force DC's hand, but regardless of how they do it or the quality of the story they do it in I believe DC will believe that Hal's return would mean sales.

That, and quite frankly Kyle's wearing an ugly costume. It really is... busy and dark. And it is just a smidge better than his crab-faced armored-gauntlet costume he first wore.

As for Batman... Bruce Wayne is not always Bruce Wayne. Sometiems he's grim and sometimes he hates teamwork. Does he work alone? Does he have a partner? Is he a team player? Is he a brooding loner? Is he grim all the time to everybody? Is Batman a mask or is Bruce Wayne a mask? Did he learn his lesson from the Knightfall saga? there was a moral to that story. Did he learn his lesson from No Man's Land? there was a moral to that story. Did he learn his lesson from Bruce Wayne : M/F? there was a moral to that story.

well. all the stories had the same morals: "No man is an island. We all need help now and then and we must learn to suck it up and not go it alone." Well, if he did learn the first time then there'd be no second times. So the world's greatest detective and a great genius can't learn this simple lesson and retain it until the next Batman title crossover....

Batman is a character that never changes and does not evolve even when events in a story prompt him to do so.

Superman is... naive? Stupid? a goofball? He is not a Boy Scout. A boy scout learns and collects knowledge and experience. This is a man who switched minds with Bizarro and was clueless about mind-switching, even though it wasn't the first time someone switched bodies with him. The current incarnation of Superman is someone only as intelligent as the story calls for.

He's also as competent, powerful, invulernable, and violent as the story calls for. No more no less. The death of a little girl will get a more severe reaction than the kidnapping and apparent sexual molestation of dozens of people and more in Metropolis.

I get bored with Superman because I don't always feel it's the same character in different situations. He's a different character in each situation and I can't care for each character equally every time.

As for pathetic... I never thought playing favorites when it came to reading things was pathetic.

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:40 AM

[quote]Originally posted by shakey:
Why is it cool to have a bunch of new retro stories of Hal as GL, but NEVER any new Jim Corrigan Spectre stories?

I vote for a Vertigo JC/Spectre mini series with Jim Aparo doing the art (covers at least) like he did in Adventure Comics in the 70's (are my wrinkles showing?)<hr></blockquote>

I second.

Jeremy Williams

11-22-2002, 04:08 AM

They should make Bucky the new FireLord, that`s what i think. :p

Seriously, replacing Hal Jordan by someone who`s not that different as a character but without the magic most not have come from someone with much creativity. Furthermore when you think about it for a second, would you make one of your beloved characters into a murderer? If not then that means the creators must not have been Green Lantern to begin with. And these guys wondered why there was heat ;) on them? Why do you think, Sherlock? :rolleyes:

I have to question JM Dematteis` motives to write the Spectre comic too. I would just want to see Frank Miller`s face if someone would ask him to write a Spectre story, with Hal Jordan. What the fck is that...!? :D Talk about deshonoring characters.

Jeremy Williams

11-22-2002, 04:20 AM

...by the way, after Coast City was destroyed, Hal Jordan appeared in the Superman books(Reign of Supermen) with a cast on his arm. And he was fine, not mad, crazy or whatever.

Something must have possessed him between those comics and the Green Lantern issues. lol

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 09:38 AM

Brian Langlois

11-22-2002, 10:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:


A little off topic, but the JLA doesn't need to train. They're the world's greatest heroes! If the heroes weren't already the best, they wouldn't be on the team. Besides, I've gotten a little sick of seeing teams training amongst themselves. It gets a little tiring and unnecessary after a while. If you've seen one Danger Room sequence, you've seen 'em all.<hr></blockquote>

EVERYONE can make themselves better. Batman trains every day. They need to at least learn how to work TOGETHER, even if they don't need practice with their own powers. My problem with the current JLA is that they sit up there in their ivory tower and wait for some alien to attack TEHM, and then fight back. Batman left the league over crap like this once. He said they had forgotten what it means to be heroes, and I can see that many fans have too.

Antisocial

11-22-2002, 10:59 AM

I loved the last Spectre series. Even though I thought Hal's insanity was handled poorly, I thought his redemption in Final Night and resurrection as the Spectre was clever. But the recent Spectre series was awful. JMD got the Spectre too involved with all that new-age mumbo jumbo. Frankly, JMD's obsession with new-age ideas has gotten out of control. Does anyone remember the Indian spirit guide he tried to introduce in Superman? Ugh!

DC was too quick to cancel the new Spectre series. What they should've done was hire John Ostrander back as the writer. He did a fill in issue for the current series and it was actually good.

I won't be picking up JLA/Spectre because 1) It's the expensive Prestige Format. 2) It's written by JMD.

Brian Langlois

11-22-2002, 11:05 AM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


Geez-louise, what a load of unsupported hoo-ha.
"You are this. He is that. This is what. You love this character. Give me your phone number so I can pledge my undying love to you oh logical arachknight."

No way, man. I ain't fallin' for that trick. you want to date someone you go on with your own kind.

What some people will do for a guy's phone number, now that is pathetic!

------

Unsupported arguments are generally the most unworthy to argue against.

Which basically means that I have no counterargument to "you'll hunt me down" other than I won't. I also have no counterargument to "he's the most complex hero ever" or "he's not boring because he is supposed to be a boy scout and stories are crafted around that."

Now I remember why I haven't gotten into an iternet flaming match since 1999. I'm not mean enough to be good at it.

<hr></blockquote>

Well, good at it or not, I appreciate the support here. You guys leapt to the defense of this old H.E.A.T. member even though he sounds like a raving lunatic. It’s not lunacy, its passion. I will fervently defend my beliefs no matter what they are, and sometimes I need all the help I can get. I think what has hurt the industry so much is people’s lack of passion. The writers, the editors, the fans. They are all guilty. I recently realized that I had been remiss in trying to save HAL, so I am guilty too. All these Kyle fans don’t understand what we’ve been going through. They just see a story, and it doesn’t matter to them. I’d like to see how much it matters if they ever put Kyle through what they did to HAL. They love to cite sales too, but HAL sold more copies of comics in his day than Kyle will ever come close to. That’s because the industry is in the gutter. It’s going to take a noble effort to pull it out. I know so many people who quit comics all together just because of what happened to HAL JORDAN. I could probably get most of them back if DC set things right. I, however, never gave up. If we keep fighting, we can win.

Thanks to everyone who has supported me here. I know it’s a long thread. You guys know what comics are about. May you all one day see a new Emerald Dawn.

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 11:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Antisocial:

DC was too quick to cancel the new Spectre series. What they should've done was hire John Ostrander back as the writer. He did a fill in issue for the current series and it was actually good.
<hr></blockquote>

Really? What issue was this. I always liked Ostrander's take on the Spectre,and would be interested to see what he does with the Jordan version.

Rob

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 11:26 AM

JMD did good work scripting for Justice League and the whole run, and I really like most of his stuff on Spider-Man but all of this new age stuff he injects into the DC super-heroes now makes me... sick.

I keep reading about a story where Batman tracks down a mass-murderer only to find out hes repented and converted into some eastern religion. This supposedly is a moral quandry for Batman.

Actually, that makes me angry. In reality making whatever deal in preperation for your aferlife does not change what you have to answer for in your corporeal existence.

I could murder hundreds, ask Jesus to forgive me, and when he does I would still have to go to jail.

While I can imagine a mass murderer dissenting on this poin I can't see Batman doing so. It doesn't matter how bad someone feels. Guilty feelings are not redemption. Batman would go into touchy-feely land, and take the bad guy back for trial.

What angers me is that JMD thinks this is an actual story filled with drama and good questions about this and that when it isn't. Not only that, but he's ripping on a character.

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 11:29 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


Thanks to everyone who has supported me here. I know it’s a long thread. You guys know what comics are about. May you all one day see a new Emerald Dawn.<hr></blockquote>

While we're demanding change...

Ron Marz did a few good things for Hal Jordan. He made some changes and additions to his early years that fit well enough into the Silver Age continuity but make it nearly impossible logically for him to be the drunken low life he was in Emerald Dawn.

So leave us not curse Ron Marz totally.

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 11:33 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Yes, I know the blame lies solely with the writers and editors at DC. I am proposing ways for them to fix it and make it acceptable to the legions of disenfranchised HAL fans out there.<hr></blockquote>

They can't. Every one of those "legions of disenfranchised fans" has his own idea of what will work. Nobody could please them all.

[quote]Is it so wrong to care so much about a fictional character?<hr></blockquote>

Well, at the very least, as someone else on these boards put it, it's creepy. But then, I've always been the kind of reader who cares about a story for the length of time it takes me to read it, then pretty much forgets it afterwards. I like a number of fictional concepts, but I don't think I've ever really obsessed over any one character or plotline.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 11:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
The whole GL concept seems like wish-fulfillment to me...<hr></blockquote>

I think most superhero comics have that element of wish-fulfillment in them. Which might explain why many readers grow obsessed with the fictional characters depicted therein. The characters in superhero comics are stand-ins for these readers' own fantasies, and anyone who messes with those fantasies is bound to cause the reader consternation. This gets even trickier when you realize that every person has a slightly different fantasy, and thus a different interpretation of how a character "should" act to fulfill that fantasy. I've always considered it a better idea to hook your personal fantasies into characters who aren't controlled by someone else, like making up your own characters in your head or something.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 11:43 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
I'm sick of this crap that everyone shovels on Kyle Rayner. Kyle Rayner's first year as Green Lantern was more interesting than the prior thirty years. Know why? Because Kyle is a human being with human friends and human problems. He has gay friends (do you think Hal would...<hr></blockquote>

Oh, absolutely I think Hal would. This is, after all, the fellow who went around with Green Arrow righting social wrongs in the '70s. Had DC been allowed (or brave enough) to do gay-themed stories in the days when the real-life modern gay movement was in its nascience, I've no doubt O'Neill and Adams would have done 'em.

- Elayne

can1

11-22-2002, 11:51 AM

Brian

Do you notice that the ones that go out of their way to remind everyone that Hal is dead and we should get over also the ones that go out of their way to defend Kyle. IF Hal is just a charactyer in a comic book the same must apply for Kyle. His time will come as well. Just as the 'contemporary fanboy' passed on Hal and his square jawed, boy scout image so too will the next generation pass on Kyles hipster doofus appeal. He is most definitely a product of his time. The ever so slightly slacker, coming of age, creative type personality, coffee house superhero of the 90s. I still remember those fantastic debates between Mike Barr and Marv Wolfman about the lasting affects of Crisis. Someday, someone will tell a story to undo all that was done. They better hope they treat their 'Kyle' with a little more class and dignity than they did our 'Hal'.

The saddest part is that this did not have to happen in order for Kyle to exist. It was because the editor and his writer could not tell a good story that involved Hal leaving and a new character coming on board. Tey went for the gimmicks, the fireworks, the shock value. It was the thing to do at the time. THe BIG EVENT. They all blowed up real good. I don't want to mince words here so let me say this as clearly as possible. What was done to the character sucked. It was an easy way out. It was CHEAP, CHEESEY, DOPEY, MINDLESS, TOTALLY LACKING IN CREATIVITY. They went for shock instead of content. Dooley strted with a gimmick and buit a half assed story around it. They took Hal and turned him into someone else just to suit there story instead of writing a wonderful ending piece that suited Hal's character. How much more interesting and challenging would it have been to write someting good that involved Hal just walking away. Instead they went for the bang, zoom, the death, the slaughter. YAAAAAA. Now thats satisfying. This is what troubles us. Now we have to suffer through all this redemption for a character that should never have been taken down this road.

Brian at this point I have no desire to see Hal as GL in this continuity. I'd rather he remain in a time when heroes had ideals, when people didn't think it was tired and odd for characters to be noble and admirable by design. When Superman was the biggest hero on the block and Batman was 'the Batman' and he was equal parts detective, fighter, and human being. THe fact is Kyle is really not that bad of a character. I confess that I enjoyed Grant Morrison's take on him.

I think for all those who feel the need to bash the 'Hal fans' out there you need to understand that this could be your favorite character some day. When the story dictates ridiculous changes to the character, when it all seems justified because its a blockbuster you all better take notice. The next time it could be one of your favorites.

In the meantime I would love to see a recon book written by James Robinson and not Kurt Busiek. James is the master of telling classic stories that involve classic characters with a slight contemprary appeal.

aphterburn

11-22-2002, 11:56 AM

Bottom Line:

What REALLY steams me, is when you dump on Kyle. I could stand all the "Bring Back Hal" stuff if it wasn't followed up by Kyle is a wimp, Kyle is a coward, Kyle is selfish. In order to make your point, you have to constantly dump on a character people have really grown to love. It's not fair. It's not fair to all the writers and artists that have worked hard trying to make this decade old character live up to Hal freakin' Jordan. Kyle doesn't get 40 years to prove himself. No, he got about 3 issues and then people tried to bury him. Kyle has grown, learned, even went to Hal for help. I identify with Kyle. Leave MY hero alone in real life.

What I also hate is this constant ragging on 'Emerald Twilight'. It's a poorly made story, from non-creative people. That's bullshit and you know it. The ONLY reason you don't like it is because of what happened with Hal. Don't tell me it didn't make sense. The way it was laid out made perfect sense. Sure, they could've gone another way, but this story is as viable as any other. Stop heaving your personal agendas onto good writers like Ron Marz.

Hal went nuts in a good STORYLINE and you scream abuse. Kyle has been entertaining new fans for 10 years and is still getting shit on. That's abuse.

can1

11-22-2002, 11:57 AM

aphterbrn

You need to go backand read some of Hal and Ollies sotires from the early 70s. This is ther real Hal. Would he have gay friends. Why is this an issue? Is it important that Kyle has gay friends? I think its more important for Kyle to have a well thought out, well written and believable supporting cast. In his first year he had Radu. Yes in NYC there are so many coffee houses run by guys like Radu. Not in my neighborhood I guees. BUt I will give you that the supporting cast did improve over time.

I still think you are totally missing the point about why folks are upset about Hal. Imagine if Kyle suddenly had a breakdown and became a gay bashing supremist. Think that would be cool?

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 12:01 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
I have stated before that I know it is fiction. That does not mean that it can't touch our lives in a meaningful way. Have you everey loved anything, and had it ripped away from you? that's how a feel, and there is nothing wrong with that.<hr></blockquote>

There's nothing wrong with that if what you loved was real. A good friend of mine just died. That's real, and it hurts. Two people in our office are out now because of deaths in their families. That's real, and they're hurting, and I grieve for them. Forgive me if I can't extend the same sympathies to fanboy readers upset over corporate-owned fictional characters suddenly not "behaving" the way they do in those readers' heads.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 12:03 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
Hal isn't dead any more than he was ever alive. Emerald Twilight was a poorly-written story...<hr></blockquote>

See, you had me on these first two sentences. If you'd stopped after the word "story," I'd be in complete agreement. I didn't find the story that well-written either. So, you know, move on.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 12:04 PM

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 12:07 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Antisocial:
I loved the last Spectre series. Even though I thought Hal's insanity was handled poorly, I thought his redemption in Final Night and resurrection as the Spectre was clever.<hr></blockquote>

Oh, amen to that. I think Final Night was so underrated, both when it came out and even now in retrospect. I quite enjoyed that miniseries. And I'm sad to see the new Spectre series go, I was loving that muchly.

- Elayne

can1

11-22-2002, 12:11 PM

Hey wait Elayne. I have a pitch for DC.

Kyle is so crazed by Terry's beating that he goes beserk and becomes a gay bashing murderer himelf ann inadvertantly kills all of Terrys friends.

Now thats a story.

Then Terry can become the new GL. So with the times. Just think of the press!!!

Its sad that these guys will argue this to death when they are defending crap. THe premise of the story was crap. Once again. C R A P. It was just a way to do a big shocking blockbuster. The blockbuster event wrote the story. That is the sad part.

I need to go get a cup of joe. Maybe I will go to that coffee house in 'the village' that is run by that big, bald, immigrant.

can1

11-22-2002, 12:18 PM

Emerald Twilight and everything that followed was just so unnessary. Yes these are fictional characters. Does that mean you can just go off and ignore everything that characters been about all along simply becasue he or she is not 'real' Then it would be ok for Peter Parker to be a murdering vilian someday.

I fail to see how anthing that happened to Hal was a logical progression. Hal was never unstable. He was character that was known to have trouble reconciling his idealistic vision with the real world. He was a character that was known to just check out when he felt it wasn't worth the effort to mkae it all make sense anymore. Your logical progression point may work on characters like Banner and the Hulk or Guy Gardner.

I will take absolute pleasure the day the worm turns like it did for the XMen continuity junkies. Someday this will no longer sell. SOmeday the deomgraphics will point to a generation that wants to see the next variety and some editor like Dooley will pull another Daffy Duck and blow up everything up for the sake of the big event.

swol

11-22-2002, 12:20 PM

On the Hal/Spectre issue:

Personally I like Corigan/Spectre better. His Angel of Vengence was pretty intense. A fun read.

Hal's Spectre has been given God-like powers and doesn't really know how to use them. This is an irritating story point for me.

My version of what should have happened after the whole Emerald Twilight/Parallax fiasco was that Hal should not have died. During the act of defeating the Sun Eater in Final Night he should have expended all of the energy and become a normal human again.

Dealing with a mortal man with that kind of guilt would have made a better story in my mind. I could see him attempting to make it up to the world by training young heroes and by taking a very non-lethal approach to fighting crime and disasters. Hal would refuse any sort of super-powers offered him for fear of mis-using them again. Now THAT would have been the ultimate redemption story.

Of course, that didn't happen. So these are just my thoughts.

can1

11-22-2002, 12:24 PM

I need a spell check.

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 12:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


See, you had me on these first two sentences. If you'd stopped after the word "story," I'd be in complete agreement. I didn't find the story that well-written either. So, you know, move on.

- Elayne<hr></blockquote>

Actually, my problem is that I too often overstate the issue. Thanks.

Hunter

11-22-2002, 12:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:

I also think the premise was a logical progression, but I don't think the execution was that well handled.
<hr></blockquote>

Well said, as were your other posts.

*fiction suit on*

I have to get my two cents in now -- I was somewhat disappointed when they decided to have Hal snap. However poorly handled it was, though, the idea was a decent one -- noble hero is prevented from doing his duty and can't take it, sets out to make things right. Again, Zero Hour -- not particularly well written but a good idea. Crazy Hal thinks what he is doing is right.

And as for exonerating him (note spelling) -- accept it or not, in DC continuity Hal did it. He went a long way towards redeeming himself in Final Night and by becoming the Spectre, but whether you want to admit it or not, it IS what happened in the DCU.

I also agree with an earlier poster -- anger, disappointment or bitterness about what happened to Hal shouldn't cross over to dislike, contempt or hatred of Kyle. It's not his fault. :)

I never really thought ANYONE (Hal, Alan, Kyle, whomever) has dealt with the ring as well as they could. Isn't this supposed to be the most powerful weapon in the universe?

I also have some problems reconciling 'limited only by wearer's willpower or imagination' with 'can't affect anything that's yellow or wood'.

*fiction suit off*

That said -- it is just a comic book. If you want Hal, buy back issues or one of the Silver Age GL stories that come out from time to time.

None of this has more than a tenuous connection to the news story that was posted, in any event. :rolleyes:

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 12:27 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
Hey wait Elayne. I have a pitch for DC.<hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry, DC is no longer accepted unsolicited pitches. :)

[quote]Terry can become the new GL. So with the times. Just think of the press!!!<hr></blockquote>

I went to a wonderful panel last evening called "Drawing Closer: Queer Representations and the Comics," featuring Phil Jimenez, Joan Hilty, Howard Cruse, Ivan Velez, Denise Sudell and Jennifer Camper. I plan on writing more about it in my blog, but I just wanted to mention that, as Phil and Joan (as pros) and Denise (as a reader and journalist) deal mainly with mainstream comics, there was of course lots of talk about when the Big Two would ever have gay protagonists (i.e., superheroes who starred in their own books), rather than just supporting characters. We'll probably be continuing this talk, Shelton Drumm permitting, at Heroes Con '03 in the storytelling panel Denise and I want to co-moderate (tentatively called "From the Inside, Out: Characterization and Constraints"), but as I've mentioned to both Phil and Denise one of the problems is that you're dealing with established characters here, so a gay protagonist has got to be either a brand-new character (like Apollo and Midnighter) or a legacy character (i.e., Courtney in Stars & STRIPES or Jack in Starman might have been gay if their creative teams had gone in that direction because they weren't established even though their codenames were). I do think it's going to happen at DC, legacy characters are being re-imagined all the time, but it's not going to happen to icons with a 60-year-history. And I don't see Terry as GL for awhile; for one thing he's come out to Kyle but Kyle hasn't "come out" to him yet! (That's another bit briefly touched on last night, superheroes as coded gay subtext, and not so much "sub" sometimes :) .)

- Elayne

can1

11-22-2002, 12:41 PM

Elayne

I thik its an interesting idea. Now comes the politics. Who writes a gay hero. A straight writer? The Spike Lee issue abounds.

I have to laugh a little when the discussion turns to continuity and its permanance. This too sahll pass. Waid and Morrison love to drop that 'hypertime' inference in random interviews. Oliver Queen was dead. The ANgel was blue. It all changes becauseit can. As long as the idea and the story are solid, why not?

Oh and in the put up or shut up department

my story line

After Coast City Hal has a breakdown but walks off with the ring and says he is off to do some real good with the ring. His ability reflects his confidence. He works out his sadness and morns the death of his friends and family by traveling the universe as just Hal Jordan. When the Guardians try to pry the ring away they see the real untapped potential of Hal, the greatest of them all and they get scared $hitle$$. Meanwhile Kyle is selected the GL. Unlike others he is a creative soul and he essentially reject the notion of the ring as a weapon. He sees it more as a construct, a building tool. He opens a coffee shopi in NYC and shaves his head 9as is normal for coffee shop owners)

Scott Wherle

11-22-2002, 12:45 PM

I didn't read this entire thread, because well, I think I got the gist of both sides of this argument pretty quickly.

Couple of things bother me here, though.

1) I get so insanely irritated with the holier-than-thou crap of people who use the phrase "If you were a REAL fan..."

I don't even care what I'm supposed to be a "real fan" of, it's just a weak argument anytime it's used, denoting that someone thinks THEIR opinion holds more weight than MINE on whatever topic it is, simply because they've either been a fan longer, or are more dedicated (often drifting into the obsessed).

I, personally, am a COMICS fan. I don't obsess over any one particular character or title, but I do love me some comics. Accumulated 30 long boxes over my 25 years of reading and continue to make weekly trips to the shop, where I can spend anywhere between 10 and 50 bucks, depending on what came in, so I think I qualify as a fan. However, I was never particularly a Green Lantern fan nor did I hate the character, yet picked the book up when I found out Hal had gone off the deep end. The premise was intriguing so I checked it out. I found a lot to like about Kyle, so I continued to read the book...for a while. Got boring, so I dropped it. Not because I hated Kyle or because Hal wasn't around, I was just bored with it. Thing is, the title was in desperate need of some juice and the murderous Hal story provided it. He was later redeemed by sacrificing himself to save the world. I was satisfied. But then, I'm not a REAL Hal fan...

2) The definition of hero.

Websters defines it thusly.

1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement

Those who say none of the above applies to Kyle are deluded by their love for Hal. Kyle had no interest in being a hero, but he wasn't given a choice. He had to step up to the plate and he did. He is, however, human, so he made msitakes along the way. Heroism isn't strictly defined by the bad guys you beat up on a daily basis, it's also often about what you overcome to become a hero. Kyle had to overcome his fears, doubts, Hal's shadow, etc. to make sure he did the right thing with the power he was given. Has he doen that? Yep. He's a hero. Love him or hate him.

3) "Hal wouldn't act this way. He wouldn't do that." Blah, blah, blah.

Sorry, but you didn't create the character, you don't own him, write him, nor do you have any particular stake in him other than your love for him. YOU don't dictate what he does. The writers do and if they're good writers, the character dictates what he does. You are a fan. If something happens to the character that you don't like, you can express your opinion, start a poll or hell, even start a group and take out ads to show how much you dislike what's been done to your hero, but in the end, you are a small fraction of the audience. A loud one, but small.

The change from Hal to Kyle generated a whole lot of new interest in the book, which remained for quite some time. DC is a business. In order to stay in business, they have to sell comic books. Sometimes, that involves making radical changes to their characters to generate sales. I'd say they were quite successful in this instance. Sure, I was scratching my head wondering why Hal was suddenly a murderer, but the premise made me want to find out. The man watched millions die in Coast City, tried to resurrect them, was unsuccessful, asked for more power, was denied and went off the deep end. Can you say that you wouldn't do everything in your power to resurrect millions of people? The powerlust to save millions corrupted him, resulting in the destruction fo the Corps and his attempts to rewrite the universe in his image, righting all wrongs in the process. Pretty natural progression if you ask me. Execution aside, it happened. It's part of comics history now.

Hal is the Spectre now. Personally, I thought it was a pretty slick move for DC to bring him back as the Spirit of Vengeance. Haven't read any of it, so I can't comment, but at least the idea was solid.

In closing this rather lengthy rebuttal, I just want to say that I have no ill will toward Hal fans. It's just really bothersome to watch someone trounce someone else's opinion so soundly because they don't agree. Respect is a two way street and I have a rough time respecting the opinions of someone who won't respect those of others.

That's all.

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 12:46 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
I thik its an interesting idea. Now comes the politics. Who writes a gay hero. A straight writer? The Spike Lee issue abounds.<hr></blockquote>

That was covered in my first Heroes panel in '01, called "Writing the Other." Sorry you missed it, and even sorrier I haven't yet made copies of the videotape for Denise and Phil. :)

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 12:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott Wherle:
I get so insanely irritated with the holier-than-thou crap of people who use the phrase "If you were a REAL fan.."<hr></blockquote>

Oh my dear, I've been hearing that one for probably longer than you've been alive. The us-vs.-them (or "me-vs.-you") mentality abounds in just about all kinds of fandom. You're well served to ignore it.

- Elayne

can1

11-22-2002, 01:07 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott Wherle:


3) "Hal wouldn't act this way. He wouldn't do that." Blah, blah, blah.

Sorry, but you didn't create the character, you don't own him, write him, nor do you have any particular stake in him other than your love for him. YOU don't dictate what he does. The writers do and if they're good writers, the character dictates what he does. You are a fan. If something happens to the character that you don't like, you can express your opinion, start a poll or hell, even start a group and take out ads to show how much you dislike what's been done to your hero, but in the end, you are a small fraction of the audience. A loud one, but small.

The change from Hal to Kyle generated a whole lot of new interest in the book, which remained for quite some time. DC is a business. In order to stay in business, they have to sell comic books. Sometimes, that involves making radical changes to their characters to generate sales. I'd say they were quite successful in this instance. Sure, I was scratching my head wondering why Hal was suddenly a murderer, but the premise made me want to find out. The man watched millions die in Coast City, tried to resurrect them, was unsuccessful, asked for more power, was denied and went off the deep end. Can you say that you wouldn't do everything in your power to resurrect millions of people? The powerlust to save millions corrupted him, resulting in the destruction fo the Corps and his attempts to rewrite the universe in his image, righting all wrongs in the process. Pretty natural progression if you ask me. Execution aside, it happened. It's part of comics history now.

Hal is the Spectre now. Personally, I thought it was a pretty slick move for DC to bring him back as the Spirit of Vengeance. Haven't read any of it, so I can't comment, but at least the idea was solid.

In closing this rather lengthy rebuttal, I just want to say that I have no ill will toward Hal fans. It's just really bothersome to watch someone trounce someone else's opinion so soundly because they don't agree. Respect is a two way street and I have a rough time respecting the opinions of someone who won't respect those of others.

That's all.<hr></blockquote>

Oh bullshit

Its one thing to take an established character down a different path, its another thing entirely to completely upsurp the character for the sake of a bad story, even if that bad story sells. Damn, Batman and the Joker as love interests is intriguing but it doesn't mean we have to see it. I do agree Hal going nuts and killing the entire Corps, murdering his friends and becoming the next big villian sold. It had all the elements to sell. How could they resist?

Now before you take offense. I am not rying to invalidate anyones opinion here. In fact what I am suggesting is that because in the world of comic books very little that stays the same forever there will be divergent opinions. I just think that the most important point is lost in all the Hal bashing, Kyle bashing rhetoric.

The point was - this was a bad, bad, bad story. It was the temper of the times. Bigger, louder, more deaths, more shocks. It didn't have to happen. I think Morrison showed you can have big stories without moving away from the essential elements of a character. It is the sign of a good writer. I think Millar is out there right now establishing characters like the Ultimates that have very definite and distinct personalities and that it who these characters are that dictate the story and not the reverse.

Scott Wherle

11-22-2002, 01:09 PM

Ah, come on now, Elayne. I'm in my thirties. You can't be THAT old. ;)

can1

11-22-2002, 01:14 PM

I'm 40 and I don't have that many long boxes anymore. I am told that modern medicine can fix that now. snicker

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 01:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Elayne Riggs:


And I don't see Terry as GL for awhile; for one thing he's come out to Kyle but Kyle hasn't "come out" to him yet! (That's another bit briefly touched on last night, superheroes as coded gay subtext, and not so much "sub" sometimes .)

<hr></blockquote>

Definitely. At one point, I asked a gay friend (who'd come out to pretty much everyone but his mom), "So, are you ever going to tell Aunt May that you're Spider-man?"

Another euphemism/analogy we've used is "Uncle Martin" (from My Favorite Martian).

And as for Terry, I think Kyle just found a sketchbook of his, that indicated that he's known Kyle was GL for a while, but kept it to himself.

That sounds like an interesting panel. I'll have to check out your blog.

Rob

Scott Wherle

11-22-2002, 01:20 PM

Sure, the storytelling of those times was about the shock factor, but those shocks often woke people from a dead snore.

As I said, I don't hate Hal. I don't hate Kyle either. I just don't see how bitching about the perceived misuse of a fictional character and the constant bashing of his replacement almost ten years after the fact is supposed to advance anything or change what happened.

can1

11-22-2002, 01:23 PM

Scott

Correct. When I am at home or in the office I very rarely bring up Hal vs Kyle or that hateful piece of crap GL story the murdered the Hal character.

When I am in a comic forum with the Hal Spectre/GL as the specific topic it may just come up.

Scott Wherle

11-22-2002, 01:32 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
I'm 40 and I don't have that many long boxes anymore. I am told that modern medicine can fix that now. snicker<hr></blockquote>

I'm working on that myself. Currently cataloguing my books for sale on e-bay or to local shops. Whatever I can't sell will be donated to local libraries, doctor's offices or places kids might pick them up to read them. I only intend to keep the stuff I'm most fond of, which should hopefully cut me down to about five or six long boxes.

swol

11-22-2002, 01:32 PM

on Hal vs. Kyle:

I think we can all agree that Kyle is here to stay. While that may have been in question for the first year or so, it is no longer in question now.

Do I miss Hal's character?
Yes. I grew up on his GL.

Do I like they way they treated him in Emerald Twilight?
No. It seemed out of character in my opinion.

Can we make Emerald Twilight go away?
No. We move on.

Do I hate Kyle?
No. I just don't feel that same affection for the character as I did with Hal. Maybe it's an age thing.

Do I like Kyle?
I must admit, that I've warmed a bit to the character. Not a favorite but he's OK.

Do I like Hal's recent incarnation as Spectre?
Not really. Despite liking but Hal and Spectre, the stories have left me a bit cold. Cancellation was only a matter of time.

Do I expect you all to agree with me?
No. That's why I call it MY opnion. There are times that righeous indignation about a story is warrented and there are times when it's pointless. The Kyle vs. Hal issue is now pointless.

Let's move on please.

Scott Wherle

11-22-2002, 01:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by swol:
on Hal vs. Kyle:

I think we can all agree that Kyle is here to stay. While that may have been in question for the first year or so, it is no longer in question now.

Do I miss Hal's character?
Yes. I grew up on his GL.

Do I like they way they treated him in Emerald Twilight?
No. It seemed out of character in my opinion.

Can we make Emerald Twilight go away?
No. We move on.

Do I hate Kyle?
No. I just don't feel that same affection for the character as I did with Hal. Maybe it's an age thing.

Do I like Kyle?
I must admit, that I've warmed a bit to the character. Not a favorite but he's OK.

Do I like Hal's recent incarnation as Spectre?
Not really. Despite liking but Hal and Spectre, the stories have left me a bit cold. Cancellation was only a matter of time.

Do I expect you all to agree with me?
No. That's why I call it MY opnion. There are times that righeous indignation about a story is warrented and there are times when it's pointless. The Kyle vs. Hal issue is now pointless.

Let's move on please.<hr></blockquote>

I really need to learn to stop being a writer and get to the point like this post has. :)

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 01:38 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott Wherle:


As I said, I don't hate Hal. I don't hate Kyle either. I just don't see how bitching about the perceived misuse of a fictional character and the constant bashing of his replacement almost ten years after the fact is supposed to advance anything or change what happened.<hr></blockquote>

I don't see how it can hurt either.

can1

11-22-2002, 01:39 PM

OK. The horse is offical beat.

But I still disagree. Like the song says

First there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is

First there is a Supergirl (insert character)
Then there is no Supergirl
THen there is (or two)

Crisis, Zero Hour and someday Hypertime says that all things can be redone in the name of retcon

swol

11-22-2002, 01:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
OK. The horse is offical beat.
<hr></blockquote>

Liquified might be a better term for this one.

:D

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 02:01 PM

[quote]Originally posted by swol:
on Hal vs. Kyle:

I think we can all agree that Kyle is here to stay. While that may have been in question for the first year or so, it is no longer in question now.<hr></blockquote>

No offense, but this statement is ignorant of history. Kyle is not here to stay any more than Marvel was guaranteed to own Toy Biz, Gerard Jones was guaranteed to write a Hal-less Green Lantern, or the Ray was to make it to issue 30.

For one thing Kyle isn't the same character any more. He does not act the same nor look the same. It's like the difference between the Batman of the eighties and that of the seventies only there was no gradual change.

It is a serial medium.

Well, my point is that if Alan Scott can cease publication for over a decade because of lack of sales Kyle can shot in the head and and transformed into a sex-changing chicken named Kaylie Rainmaker if the writers think it will turn the book around from cancellation.

[quote]
Do I miss Hal's character?
Yes. I grew up on his GL. <hr></blockquote>

I do, too. What I really miss though are certain kinds of stories not told since the seventies. I can't really get that back.

[quote]
Do I like they way they treated him in Emerald Twilight?
No. It seemed out of character in my opinion.

Can we make Emerald Twilight go away?
No. We move on.
<hr></blockquote>

It's a comic book story, not a town-destroying hurricane. The results can be reversed if someone cares to write it. And someone will write it as soon as sales slump.

And then the story itself will fade away if interest fades. If not it will just end up being an interesting story or an example of what not to do. I don't know. I can't predict interest in back issues.

[quote]
Do I hate Kyle?
No. I just don't feel that same affection for the character as I did with Hal. Maybe it's an age thing.[quote]

Maybe it's just that he's not universally engaging. Not every character is. I'm young and I did not care for the guy.

[qoute]
Do I like Kyle?
I must admit, that I've warmed a bit to the character. Not a favorite but he's OK.
<hr></blockquote>

When it comes to taste there is no dispute.
[quote]
Do I like Hal's recent incarnation as Spectre?
Not really. Despite liking but Hal and Spectre, the stories have left me a bit cold. Cancellation was only a matter of time. <hr></blockquote>

I find the mixing and matching of certain different commerical properties to be a mistake for a variety of reasons. For the most part it is confusing.

I also dislike JMD's spiritual writing.

I find this to be an example of the the corruption of the mixed universe idea.

I wonder how one is supposed to find redemption for the murder of billions. By being a punisher of the guilty yourself? By redeeming others? How does a giant cosmic powered floating dude with many powers redeem others? 

[quote]
Do I expect you all to agree with me?
No. That's why I call it MY opnion. There are times that righeous indignation about a story is warrented and there are times when it's pointless. The Kyle vs. Hal issue is now pointless. [quote]

If you expected agreement you'd be naive. Glad you aren't.

But the argument over the merits of one character versus another is only as pointless as the purchase of the title at all.

If some satisfaction can be gained from reading a comic book I imagine some satisfaction can come from arguing the merits of one thing over another.

From certain economic standpoints it is not pointless. Winning it for the Kyle side allowed Ron Marz to feed his family.

Not getting along with his editor made Gerard Jones, a decent writer, a scapegoat of boring comics to many readers.

Well, I've been long-winded again.

[quote]Let's move on please.<hr></blockquote>

Let's not. Let's all involve ourselves in the parts of our hobbies that interest us. If a particular brand of nerd, geek, or reader tends to manifest or act in a manner that we'd rather not relate to, react to, or interact with than it's better to ignore him or them than to tell them to give up and move on.

I only posted in reply to this because I was interested. You replied to them because you were interested that they were interested.

Playing peacemaker won't exactly work in this situation especially because there's no real war.

Hunter

11-22-2002, 02:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:

I don't see how it can hurt either.<hr></blockquote>

Well, that depends. I think if it devolves into name-calling, then it's not benefiting anyone. I mean, sure, if we all want to debate relative merits and flaws, that's one thing. But 'i hate this and I'm right' and 'You're stupid for thinking that' and so forth aren't really getting us anywhere but irritated.

In short, keep it on an adult level.

:D Can't always take my own advice, but I try. :rolleyes:

*edited* Should've said this the first time around, but this post wasn't meant for anyone in particular. I just see temperatures rising in this thread.

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 02:12 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott Wherle:
Ah, come on now, Elayne. I'm in my thirties. You can't be THAT old. ;) <hr></blockquote>

Heh, 45 in a week and a half, but you got me there, I wasn't actually hearing the "us vs. them" thing a lot when I was a pre-teen. Except if you want to count school cliques and religious snobs...

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 02:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger, re: superheroes having gay subtext:


Definitely. At one point, I asked a gay friend (who'd come out to pretty much everyone but his mom), "So, are you ever going to tell Aunt May that you're Spider-man?"

Another euphemism/analogy we've used is "Uncle Martin" (from My Favorite Martian).<hr></blockquote>

When they were talking about it last night, in the context of how much the old Batman TV show "got away with" gay subtext, I leaned over to David Gabriel and whispered, "You know, I always thought of Bewitched as the gay TV show of the '60s." :)

[quote]And as for Terry, I think Kyle just found a sketchbook of his, that indicated that he's known Kyle was GL for a while, but kept it to himself.<hr></blockquote>

D'oh! I forgot about that plot point, thanks!

[quote]That sounds like an interesting panel. I'll have to check out your blog.<hr></blockquote>

I was going to do the write-up today but it probably won't happen till tomorrow. Got my notes right here though. Lots of good folks in attendance in addition to the panelists - besides David (whose NYC Comic Book Museum is having a "Comics Books Fight AIDS" presentation on December 1 [click <a href="http://www.nyccomicbookmuseum.org/exhibits/AIDSDay_02/Infopage.htm" target="_blank">here</a> for more info, and it's on topic as GL writer Judd Winick is one of the special guests]), I said hi to Rich Watson, who will no doubt write the panel up in one of his online columns; Ed Douglas and Marc Wilkofsky from the Friends of Lulu National Board; and the lovely and talented Martha Thomases (former PR director for DC), who introduced me to Howard's SO Ed Sedarbaum (who's featured in I Have To Live With This Guy!). And both Denise and Phil had tape recorders on the table, so I suspect a transcript will turn up on Sequential Tart soon.

- Elayne

SpaceDog

11-22-2002, 02:29 PM

If they had hired back John Ostrander, I would have come back to the title and tried it on for a year. I bought his fill in issue.

swol

11-22-2002, 02:43 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


Let's not. Let's all involve ourselves in the parts of our hobbies that interest us. If a particular brand of nerd, geek, or reader tends to manifest or act in a manner that we'd rather not relate to, react to, or interact with than it's better to ignore him or them than to tell them to give up and move on.

I only posted in reply to this because I was interested. You replied to them because you were interested that they were interested.

Playing peacemaker won't exactly work in this situation especially because there's no real war.<hr></blockquote>

Obviously we disagree on points.
Am I telling you to give up your point of view or opinion? No.

I just feel that this battle was over years ago.

As far as Kyle "Being here to stay" ... OK you have me there. BUT, I don't see DC dropping a major character as GL.

The dropping of Allen in the fifties was a different story...comics as a whole were under extreme duress and the whole medium of Hero comics pretty much went away.

Yes, they may revamp GL again in a few years and then we'll have another debate about Kyle versus the new guy (or gal).

Maybe they will have learned by then from the mistakes of Emerald Twilight and have Kyle go out in better style than Hal did.

But for now, Kyle is GL and Hal is Spectre.

I'm just picking my battles and this is not one I care to fight. If you do, go for it, it's your right to do so. Just respect the opinions of those of us who choose other battles to fight.

That, as they say, is just my 2 cents worth.

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 03:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
 Like the song says

First there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is

<hr></blockquote>

And thank you SO much for getting that stuck in my head!

Rob

can1

11-22-2002, 03:33 PM

To which the only logical reply is...

Oh Juanita I call your name.

brett

11-22-2002, 03:38 PM

My take on the whole thing is really very simple.

DC is just one big old mess and has been for years.

They have no direction, don't know WHAT to do with their characters and change concepts with their characters more often than Imelda Marcos changed her shoes. From the onset, making Green Lantern a murderer was the most ridiculous story concept in comics. It was out of character, unbelievable and just a plain old bad story. When editors and writers have to resort to something so outlandishly out of character for shock value to increase readership, it only demonstrates a lack of reason, intellect and creativity on their part.

I'd be surprised if DC doesn't try and 'shock the world' with a story that Superman isn't really from Krypton but from Earth... or Uranus.

Over the years DC has destroyed most of their characters: Firestorm (a fire elemental, so far out of concept, the book fell flat on its face), JSA (How many times has the JSA died, got old or gone to limbo? Johns may be putting out good stories now but how long will that last? I decided to put the book and its characters to sleep, even if DC didn't), Titans (don't even get me started...., DC's once best selling comic? They should be ashamed of themselves), Legion (another book that's undergone more incarnations than...) Hawkman (This guy's got more personalities and origins than Sybil), Green Arrow (Dead, alive, a spirit in heaven, Stanley and his monster, god the book was a horror from cover to cover)... the list can go on and on.

Does it mean I don't like change? Absolutely not. Change nurtures growth. But the change has to make sense or its not believeable. Change for the sake of change is ridiculous. What DC has done to some of their characters would be as if someone came along and said Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet was a complete and utter lie. Romeo was a closet case homosexual who just wanted to use Juliet to borrow her extravagant shoe collection.

Does that sound ridiculous? Sure does. So does some of the things DC does with their characters.

And people wonder why comic sales are lower now than they have ever been. The average print run on a title is what, 30,000-40,000. It's a disgrace. And anyone who says it's because of video, dvd, games, etc. is just looking to blame other people for comic companies putting out bad comics. Build it and they will come. They did with the Spiderman movie. Why then won't they pick up the comic? Is it because JMS is doing such a wonderful job? Can't be, because I picked up an issue and was bored to tears.

But I digress, this is about DC: Disaster Comics.

When companies are putting out stories like murdering Hal Jordan, multiple personality Hawkman, the Legion's legion of origins and restarts, you wonder why sales keep going down faster than the Titanic?

can1

11-22-2002, 03:44 PM

Brett

Interesting points - but what is the alternative.

Ageless characters?

A 90 year old Superman and Batman?

Worse yet - the mantle of the Bat?

I really don't have problems with an occasional reset. I agree that these hlf baked gimmicks from all quarters have been very tiring.

Hunter

11-22-2002, 04:54 PM

[quote]Originally posted by brett:
What DC has done to some of their characters would be as if someone came along and said Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet was a complete and utter lie. Romeo was a closet case homosexual who just wanted to use Juliet to borrow her extravagant shoe collection.
<hr></blockquote>

Shakespeare didn't publish the Adventures of Romeo & Juliet as a monthly for several decades, though. This just is not really a valid comparison, when considering all of the different writers on Green Lantern throughout the years. It's not one self-contained story, like Romeo & Juliet.

brett

11-22-2002, 05:37 PM

I'm not against reboots, the ones that have staying power and follow what was set forth from the beginning or do not contradict anything set forth from the onset.

What I do have a problem with are annual character restructures or characters that go through such radical transformations that they have little remnants of the character from which the original concept sprung from. These are such left field contradictions to who the characters are that they might as well create new ones (since the actions barely resemble the original's foundations) or go through so many different origins, so often, that you need scorecards to keep track.

Example from DC: Titans (how many incarnations in the last decade), Firestorm (made him a what, fire elemental?), Captain Marvel/Shazam, Donna Troy/Wonder Girl/Troia/Darkstar, Hal Jordan/GL, JSA, Legion, Hawkman, Supergirl (is she protoplasm, a spirit, a girl, Kara?), Aquaman, Green Arrow and many others that hurt my head to much to think about.

And DC thought their universe was incomprehensible BEFORE Crisis? At least the characters were consistant! What was so hard to understand: there was a Superman from the golden age, the silver age and the modern age. To differentiate them, you placed them on parallel earths (much like Marvel has done with their ultimate titles) and that's it!

Now they're all on one earth but have gone through more metamorphasis' than, well, Metamorpho! You can't keep track! They're not even in character! And they do it every 2-3 years!

My point was, change for the sake of change is insane if it doesn't make sense (Hal Jordan a murderer, it went against his character) but when it has seeds in its origin that you can use to springboard from, it makes sense and is not out of left field. Then it's a good, logical change. Example: Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

Anyway, Dc changes their characters so often, who can remember, much less understand. And they wonder why readership is dwindling and aimed at 35-40 year olds. They're the only ones who can remember each change, keep track AND understand.

brett

11-22-2002, 05:48 PM

Wait a second.

I'm sorry, I stand corrected. The seeds for Hal Jordan becoming a psychotic murderer WERE set up in his REBOOT origin.

The one that made him an unstable alcoholic who was trained by Sinestro.

BTW: Here's a bit of trivia: How many Aquaman #1's have there been since 1983, mini-series' included.

aphterburn

11-22-2002, 06:07 PM

[quote]Originally posted by brett:
I'm not against reboots, the ones that have staying power and follow what was set forth from the beginning or do not contradict anything set forth from the onset.

What I do have a problem with are annual character restructures or characters that go through such radical transformations that they have little remnants of the character from which the original concept sprung from. These are such left field contradictions to who the characters are that they might as well create new ones (since the actions barely resemble the original's foundations) or go through so many different origins, so often, that you need scorecards to keep track.

Example from DC: Titans (how many incarnations in the last decade), Firestorm (made him a what, fire elemental?), Captain Marvel/Shazam, Donna Troy/Wonder Girl/Troia/Darkstar, Hal Jordan/GL, JSA, Legion, Hawkman, Supergirl (is she protoplasm, a spirit, a girl, Kara?), Aquaman, Green Arrow and many others that hurt my head to much to think about.

And DC thought their universe was incomprehensible BEFORE Crisis? At least the characters were consistant! What was so hard to understand: there was a Superman from the golden age, the silver age and the modern age. To differentiate them, you placed them on parallel earths (much like Marvel has done with their ultimate titles) and that's it!

Now they're all on one earth but have gone through more metamorphasis' than, well, Metamorpho! You can't keep track! They're not even in character! And they do it every 2-3 years!

My point was, change for the sake of change is insane if it doesn't make sense (Hal Jordan a murderer, it went against his character) but when it has seeds in its origin that you can use to springboard from, it makes sense and is not out of left field. Then it's a good, logical change. Example: Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

Anyway, Dc changes their characters so often, who can remember, much less understand. And they wonder why readership is dwindling and aimed at 35-40 year olds. They're the only ones who can remember each change, keep track AND understand.<hr></blockquote>

You must think DC is in a worse predicament than it is. DC is the best company out for a reason. They don't get into petty in-company bickering, they don't do stupid Marvel-Marvell-Marville publicity stunts, they don't have to talk shit to sell books, and they have books that appeal to all ages.

I don't see a problem with DC. If you do, that's your problem. I understand each reboot and keep track of them very easily. I think most people can too. You think it's illogical? More power to you, my man. Go read something with a foil cover.

11-22-2002, 06:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
Its one thing to take an established character down a different path, its another thing entirely to completely upsurp the character for the sake of a bad story, even if that bad story sells. <hr></blockquote>

...Let's give another example for the clueless: Say Abraham Lincoln was a DC character instead of a Scott McCloud CGI one-shot. For 249 issues Honest Abe let the Union in its holy cause against Slavery and the Rebellious Southern states. Suddenly, with The Adventures of Abe Lincoln #250, a new writer from Englandland takes over the book. Suddenly, we find the following changes:
Abe now hates Southerners with a passion, and wants to set up concentration camps to exterminate them all. He also gives Sherman orders to not only raze and burn, but to salt the earth so nothing will grow again. The reason? Southerners molested him when he was staying at the YMCA in Richmond when he was a boy.
He also has three mistresses he molests every night in the White House's secret S&M chamber. And each of the mistresses is a slave he owns.

...And to take it further, the new writer also makes the following changes:
Mary Todd Lincoln is actually a hemaphrodite.
Tad Lincoln, his favorite son, didn't die of fever, but was fed to Etrigan in exchange for his assist in the burning of Atlanta when Sherman discovered he'd left his flint & steel at home.
John Wilkes Booth is an Agent of God, and has been assigned to kill Lincoln because of his ties with satanic forces.
U.S. Grant drinks excessively to keep the Keeper attached to his shoulder under control so as to defeat the Drakh mission to make sure the South wins the War Betwixt the States
Harriet Beecher Stowe was really a hack writer working for The Enquirer.

...Now, with those kind of radical changes in mind, consider what was done to Hal. Yep. A total abandon of logic and reason with regards to linear development. A hero does not go from being a hero with integrity to a mass murderer with no morals within the space of one or two issues. The creative staff at the time didn't consider this at all when they turned Hal into Parallax. In fact, it made less sense than some of the "Imaginary Tales" of the 70's in the Superman books, especially the "Lex Luthor is Superman" one.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott Wherle:
Ah, come on now, Elayne. I'm in my thirties. You can't be THAT old. ;) <hr></blockquote>

...Hey, didn't your parents tell you it's not polite to ask a woman about her age?

Now, her boob size is a different story...:-):-)

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
You must think DC is in a worse predicament than you think it is. DC is the best company out for a reason. They don't get into petty in-company bickering, they don't do stupid Marvel-Marvell-Marville publicity stunts, they don't have to talk shit to sell books, and they have books that appeal to all ages. <hr></blockquote>

...Then again, DC doesn't promotes books outside of the Big Two characters worth a shit. CIP: Orion, a book that was one of the best DC was putting out at the time, but wasn't marketed period once the first issue got out the door. DC does this with all it's non-Super and non-Bat books, and that's the problem.

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:
But Gerard Jones -- he drove Hal into the ground with one dull story after another, so that driving him nuts and killing him was an option.<hr></blockquote>

...But saying it's the only option is total bullshit. CIP: Tom DeFalco took over Thor after the Celestial Saga maxi-arc, and proceeded to run the book into the ground. Sales were so low that it was on the verge of cancellation. After three years of crap - the only "high" point being when DeFalco threw Thor against a Knight of God or somesort - they gave the book to Walt Simonson and put the book into the best seller list for the first time in years.

Bottom line: There's no such thing as a bad character who needs to be killed off, only writers who haven't a clue how to salvage the character without taking the easy way out of killing him off and starting over.

aphterburn

11-22-2002, 08:38 PM

OM, that Abraham Lincoln scenario was totally off-the-wall and had nothing to do with what happened to Hal. You know that. I'm not gonna even get into THIS again.

DC doesn't promote their books? Where are they supposed to promote them at? They use the options they are given. Look at all the stuff they're doing for The Power Company, a book that doesn't even rank in the top 100. Shoots that theory to hell.

And killing off a character is not a creatively inept thing to do, as people (mostly people who like these characters) would have you believe. Alot of the time these characters are killed off because no one cares, and because the writers CAN. People die in real life, why not in comics?

brett

11-22-2002, 09:44 PM

Aphterburn,

You don't have a problem with DC and you understand all their reboots, character reshuffles, etc.?

How old are you? I'm willing to bet you've graduated high school, at the very least.

Me? My best friend, his wife and 11 year old daughter (an honor student) just visited from Florida. I gave her a couple of recent issues of Wonder Woman (the one where Diana is in a Ms. America costume and her mother is the WW 2 Wonder Woman) and I also have her some Green Lanterns to read.

She couldn't follow them for the life of her. But she could site Dickens chapter and verse.

I'm glad you feel that DC is one of the best companies out there. It's people like yourself that are one of the 30,000 - 40,000 people who are keeping comics alive. However, barely ten years ago (before foil covers and all that jazz), a median selling comic would have been cancelled if it had sales under 200,000 (check statements of ownership published annually in the back of the letter columns of back issues for circ figures). So between then and now, 170,000 people stopped buying comics and they didn't stop buying them because they were so irresitably well written and drawn.

To be successful in business, one must not only retain the sales of their current buyers but always attract new ones. The industry is not only drawing in new readers but losing old ones. And this is happening for a reason. Economy? Video? DVDs? Again, you can try and convince yourself that it's all those things from now until doomsday but again, the bottom line still remains the same... if it was good, people would buy it.

That 850 million dollars from Spider Man the movie didn't just appear out of mid air. And even 15% of that didn't result in an increase in Spider Man comic book sales. Then, you've got to ask yourself why.

brett

11-22-2002, 09:49 PM

One last thing, if DC's books sell so well, why do they feel the need to constantly restructure a character, why are they constantly restarting a character's series and why oh why is 40,000 copies a month considered a solid seller?

Alex Segura Jr.

11-22-2002, 10:02 PM

I've heard this many times, and I think it rings true: Killing (in any sense of the of the word) off the main character is an act of a desperate writer.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.

Alex

11-22-2002, 10:09 PM

[quote]Originally posted by brett:
How old are you? I'm willing to bet you've graduated high school, at the very least.<hr></blockquote>

...I have my doubts, honestly. He couldn't even grasp an analogy.

Jeremy Williams

11-23-2002, 01:03 AM

Posted by OM:

Bottom line: There's no such thing as a bad character who needs to be killed off, only writers who haven't a clue how to salvage the character without taking the easy way out of killing him off and starting over.

Best line of the thread right there. People have to go back to when it was done to understand what happened too: this was at at time where DC killed Superman, replaced Wonderwoman/Diana by Artemis, Batman suffered a broken back, and Aquaman got his look changed(and hand choped off). Dc was having success with its Superman tragedy so they decided to do that with all of the magor characters. It was a cheap ploy basicly to get new readers.

All in all if we look at the Green Lantern situation is that most people will agree that:

1- Emerald Twilight was bad
2- Final Night was bad
3- The Dematteis Spectre series was bad
(not to mention Zero Hour)

So, i can we fix this?

The Blue Spider

11-23-2002, 01:36 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Williams:
Posted by OM:

Bottom line: There's no such thing as a bad character who needs to be killed off, only writers who haven't a clue how to salvage the character without taking the easy way out of killing him off and starting over.

Best line of the thread right there. People have to go back to when it was done to understand what happened too: this was at at time where DC killed Superman, replaced Wonderwoman/Diana by Artemis, Batman suffered a broken back, and Aquaman got his look changed(and hand choped off). Dc was having success with its Superman tragedy so they decided to do that with all of the magor characters. It was a cheap ploy basicly to get new readers.

All in all if we look at the Green Lantern situation is that most people will agree that:

1- Emerald Twilight was bad
2- Final Night was bad
3- The Dematteis Spectre series was bad
(not to mention Zero Hour)

So, i can we fix this?<hr></blockquote>


While we should agree that the stunts done in Superman and Batman were cheap ploys they were good in a different sense. The stories, while mediocre in quality, were fun and more importantly they boosted sales. Killing Superman was a good move. It forced me to get better acquainted with the Post-Crisis DC world.

The cheap ploys that DC uses now, such as Bruce Wayne: M/F Our Worlds At War are... bad. They force us to go through convoluted stuff now that has little creative and less commercial value. (That said, I love No Man's Land because no matter how much we might not like it and its gaps in logic, it was a fun experiment for the writers and editors.)

I also like the idea of an annual summer company crossover, despite what it does to individual series of comics and their ongoing plotlines.

The Final Night was alright.

How can we undo all of this? That's easy. When one of us is in a position of comic book writer, or there is one that will listen to us, we employ the Dark Phoenix model of comics. My theory has always been that Hal Jordan could not and did not murder trillions by resetting the universe and definitely would not wipe out his friends and surrogate family. So the simple answer is that that was not Hal. It was an evil clone energy being something.
That may not be the most original or creative solution and some may hate it.
But it's the only one that makes sense with the character.

It takes out the silly "a mass murderer can be redeemed on earth" gimmick.

It also adds a few new angles to Hal's life. For one thing he now has custody of his niece, or so his undead clone does.

There's also one continuity thing to straighten out. The Guardians have the ability to turn off power rings at will. So the writer needs to contrive a reason why they let Hal Jordan's power ring stay active long enough to start killing Green Lanterns. (It will make the Guardians seem more cosmic to give them a mysterious reason. Maybe they faked their deaths. Maybe the immortals got tired or bored. I don't care.)

And now I expect somebody to tell me my idea sucks.

And I know we'll never have everybody happy.

and yes, I can see Kyle still being around.

and yes, I know that there should be a Spectre. a new one. not a pre-established displaced character. not the original whose story was finished by the John Ostrander.

I actually have an idea in mind.

Taylor Porter

11-23-2002, 02:00 AM

Okay, I'm gonna touch on a bunch of things here:

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
DC doesn't promote their books? Where are they supposed to promote them at? They use the options they are given. Look at all the stuff they're doing for The Power Company, a book that doesn't even rank in the top 100. Shoots that theory to hell.
<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't say that citing one example shoots a theory to hell. All you did was cite one example; an example to the contrary was cited in the post to which you were responding (Orion, which did seem to be ignored by DC). While you could certainly name more examples, there are also more examples of DC NOT promoting their books. For example, the only time you here about a Vertigo book is when it gets cancelled at issue #15, or gets popular with issue #5. Where's the promotion with issue 1? I didn't get in on the ground floor with 100 Bullets, Fables or Y, The Last Man because Vertigo didn't even mention these books until the word of mouth had already started.

[quote]Originally posted by brett:
It's people like yourself that are one of the 30,000 - 40,000 people who are keeping comics alive. However, barely ten years ago (before foil covers and all that jazz), a median selling comic would have been cancelled if it had sales under 200,000 (check statements of ownership published annually in the back of the letter columns of back issues for circ figures). So between then and now, 170,000 people stopped buying comics and they didn't stop buying them because they were so irresitably well written and drawn.
....the bottom line still remains the same... if it was good, people would buy it.
<hr></blockquote>

I'm glad someone else feels this way. Everyone likes to throw blame for comics decreasing popularity: it was the speculators' fault, or the distributors, or video games, etc. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of the comics in the past decade have been terrible. In principle, I think comics deserve a wider audience, but I don't exactly think Green Lantern or X-Men (or whatever) deserves more than 50, 000 readers. I think they're lucky to have that many readers, considering the way they're written. Let's make sure the books are good before we go hunting for those millions of fans.

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
The stories, while mediocre in quality, were fun and more importantly they boosted sales.
<hr></blockquote>

I fail to see how high sales are more important than quality.

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
How can we undo all of this? That's easy. When one of us is in a position of comic book writer, or there is one that will listen to us, we employ the Dark Phoenix model of comics. My theory has always been that Hal Jordan could not and did not murder trillions by resetting the universe and definitely would not wipe out his friends and surrogate family. So the simple answer is that that was not Hal. It was an evil clone energy being something.
That may not be the most original or creative solution and some may hate it.
But it's the only one that makes sense with the character.
<hr></blockquote>

Do two wrongs make a right? Will two bad stories cancel each other out? I just want them to concentrate on the future, and make GOOD Green Lantern comics, regardless of who's wearing the ring. My biggest complaint about Emerald Twilight is that it was a bad story. Having another bad story, even if it was to "fix" Emerald Twilight, seems to me like a step in the wrong direction.

The Blue Spider

11-23-2002, 04:28 AM

Okay, I just saw "Analyze This" so forgive me if I stop being emotional, sentimental, or genuninely tact regarding any of this.

[quote]TP:
I fail to see how high sales are more important than quality.<hr></blockquote>

Then you are not looking at the big picture. You are taking a short-sighted attitude. Do you know what Jack Kirby's original Fourth World stuff was? Well I am told that it was a quality series of quality comics. Do you know what I also know? It was canceled due to lack of sales.

High sales are an insurance policy that is possible to buy a freaking comic book that has quality stuff inside. A book's quality is irrelevent to anybody but a few people when it's in a back issue box.

Oh, and Jack Kirby's original story was never finished beyond the 11th issue of New Gods and his final issues of Jimmy Olsen, Forever People, and Mr. Miracle.

If Superman had not died Action 700 might not have had as many readers as it did.

On DC promoting their books

Aphterburn says they use all the options they are given. That is true and untrue at the same time. Power Company was not promoted so much by DC as a faceless company body so much as it was by its creators. They also, arguably, don't push too much of their stuff too hard when it comes to trade magazines and catalogues and such. That's a shame. On the other hand, that is all they have. DC cannot pull out an ad in Time Magazine. It is not financially feasible.

They should promote more of their quality stuff in the right places that they can.

DC and Marvel should also try crafting stuff that's of interest to the media. 'Newsworthy' does not mean important or relevent. It means that it can be passed onto the reading or watching public without damaging the reputation of the news agency and perhaps even enhancing it. The Truth is newsworthy. The death of Superman was newsworthy. That sometimes results in sales.

Price

Let's not kid ourselves.
[quote]TP:
Everyone likes to throw blame for comics decreasing popularity: it was the speculators' fault, or the distributors, or video games, etc. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of the comics in the past decade have been terrible. In principle, I think comics deserve a wider audience, but I don't exactly think Green Lantern or X-Men (or whatever) deserves more than 50, 000 readers. I think they're lucky to have that many readers, considering the way they're written. Let's make sure the books are good before we go hunting for those millions of fans.

<hr></blockquote>

Amongst actual issues of quality, distribution, genuine interest, literacy, quantity of sex and violence, and ease of use comic books are too danged expensive. And however expensive I find them you can bet that the average comic book neophyte does not give a rat's buttocks why the price is so high or so much higher than he remembers. It seems even more expensive to the casual and curious type.

Quality of Story

As a serial medium/genre continuity is important in many senses. However, a good story will bring back whomever is interested in the genre to the next issue. If the series is based on continuity, keep to the continuity but don't empahasize the past beyond what is required to know about the story. That's it. Continuity is meant to enrich. If continuity won't add layers to the character in the story, tell a different story. Continuity is a very useful tool. Without it characters are cyphers with no history and no motivation.

The most important thing about continuity is that if you refer to it properly it won't add confusion to a reader. What it is then is an advertisement for past issues. This profits dealers in that people go sniffing through back issues bins to satisfy their curiousity.
It profits the comic book company if they run a reprint.

Use the past. Build to the future. Make people care about a character one way or the other.

Every comic has its audience, or it doesn't and it gets canceled.

[quote]
TP:
Do two wrongs make a right? Will two bad stories cancel each other out? I just want them to concentrate on the future, and make GOOD Green Lantern comics, regardless of who's wearing the ring. My biggest complaint about Emerald Twilight is that it was a bad story. Having another bad story, even if it was to "fix" Emerald Twilight, seems to me like a step in the wrong direction. <hr></blockquote>

Listen to yourself. This isn't moralism, it's a comic book. It is also a series of comic books. There is no two wrongs and a right.

There's good stories and bad stories. There are bad concepts and good stories. How do you know something would be a bad story if you know that there is an evil twin involved? An evil twin is an idea, not a story. There is no story. There is no story to critique or be bad.

As a serial medium some wonder why some character did this and now there's no consequences. A story can tie up loose ends. Stories that tie up loose ends can be good. Some are even written well. Some even sell in a commerical sense.

"The ring" "the Ring". There is no "the ring". It's a ring. It's a plot device. There's at least three of them. The cat is out of the bag; being a Green Lantern is no longer so sacred that there is only one.

Anyway, a step in a supposed wrong direction is the wrong thing to panic over. The thing you must worry over is the second step. If the second step is in the wrong direction then we have a reason to panic. Two steps indicates a third step and fourth step means that someone is going in a given direction. That could be wrong.

After a step that is just a step may come another. The first may seem like it was in the wrong direction but after a few observations one may see that it is all towards the right direction.

But of course, that is hypothetical.

As for wanting quality Green Lantern stories: when I want one, I look for a back issue. I'll shed no tears if Green Lantern is canceled tomorrow. DC will just begin publication of another GL series the moment they believe it is a viable commerical product again.

The Blue Spider

11-23-2002, 04:30 AM

That was fun.

The Blue Spider

11-23-2002, 04:44 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:

And killing off a character is not a creatively inept thing to do, as people (mostly people who like these characters) would have you believe. Alot of the time these characters are killed off because no one cares, and because the writers CAN. People die in real life, why not in comics?<hr></blockquote>

Well, people die in real life because it is life and these people were actually living.

People in comics were not ever really living and thus cannot die. Do you understand that? It's fic-tion. It's n o t r e a l.

A better reason is that usually when people die in comics a lot more people bitch about it a lot more publically than for something in real life, and a writer/editor is a lot more inclined to bring a 'dead' character back to life than God is a deceased loved one.

---------
Also: if no one cared almost no one would ever die. Hal was killed an replaced to generate sales and/or interest, not because no one would care one way or the other. If no one cared, not only would the comic be canceled at issue 46 but the comic book writer could no longer kill a character because he "can" because he couldn't.

brett

11-23-2002, 09:05 AM

Aphterburn,

For someone who is so quick to point out to others that 'it's only fiction, it's not real', I'd take a bit of my own advice, calm down and get off my soap box. After all, they aren't real. They're only comic books.

BTW, someone above pointed out the downward trend after the Superman death then DC went ahead and did it with Batman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, etc.

Thing was, the Superman story was actually kind of fun. The Batman one was a bit drawn out and boring but they crossed the line with the Hal Jordan and Aquman disasters. I just felt the Hal thing wa out of character (according to his original concept, not the reboot because even if the reboot origin held muster, you gotta question the guardians for allowing someone so unstable -- an irresponsible alcoholic -- to have the most powerful weapon in the universe). The Aquaman thing, well, that was just out right ridiculous. We're talking about the King of the Seven Seas, they took off his hand and made him look like Captain Hook.

Last I heard, comics were supposed to be about heroes. Not psychotic, rash, angry, out of control people with extraordinary powers. Not much of an inspiration to kids if you ask me.

TTROY

11-23-2002, 11:55 AM

Did you even read Aquaman after he had his hand cut off? You obviously didn't because then you wouldn't be espousing the "king of the seven seas" line
The character was more regal and king like than he had ever been during any tenure previously....

and PAD's Aquaman was far from any distaster....
Your letting your ignorance show by stating generalities. just because you think is it cute and funny to continually state the Capt Hook line.... previously Aquaman was a joke even recent as the cartoon network spoofs do they make fun of him.... only with this --development in his life did he have some real character.

Taylor Porter

11-23-2002, 02:04 PM

[quote]Originally posted by brett:

Last I heard, comics were supposed to be about heroes. Not psychotic, rash, angry, out of control people with extraordinary powers. Not much of an inspiration to kids if you ask me.<hr></blockquote>

Don't you think that's kind of a limited view of comics? Do they ALL have to be about heroes? Do they ALL have to be an inspiration to kids? If so, count me out. Sometimes stories about "psychotic, rash, angry, out of control people with extraordinary powers" are really good. I think there's enough room in comics for stories about ALL KINDS of characters.

aphterburn

11-23-2002, 02:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by brett:
Aphterburn,

How old are you? I'm willing to bet you've graduated high school, at the very least.

She couldn't follow them for the life of her. But she could site Dickens chapter and verse.

QB]<hr></blockquote>

I would repectfully submit to you, that you have her reading the wrong books. Why not give her Justice League Adventures, or if she's ready, Birds of Prey or a good original graphic novel.

[quote]Originally posted by OM:
[QB]

...I have my doubts, honestly. He couldn't even grasp an analogy. (referring to my graduating high school) <hr></blockquote>

I have graduated high school and college (as if I have to justify this). Insults? I mean really? I can grasp an analogy, but yours was just a really bad one.

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


As for wanting quality Green Lantern stories: when I want one, I look for a back issue. I'll shed no tears if Green Lantern is canceled tomorrow. DC will just begin publication of another GL series the moment they believe it is a viable commerical product again.<hr></blockquote>

How do you feel about the fact that Green Lantern is NOT going to be cancelled in the near future? Have you even read any recent issues? I've seen you speak on Kyle Rayner but have you even checked to see the quality of GL these days? Pretty good, if I may say so. Hell, even Hal shows up from time to time. But he's not GL so feel free to boycot...

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:




The cheap ploys that DC uses now, such as Bruce Wayne: M/F Our Worlds At War are... bad.

<hr></blockquote>

Have you considered that maybe people's opinions differ from yours. I see that alot of people here forget that fact. Did you read Bruck Wayne: M/F? Classic work done by Rucka and Brubaker there.

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


Well, people die in real life because it is life and these people were actually living.

People in comics were not ever really living and thus cannot die. Do you understand that? It's fic-tion. It's n o t r e a l.
<hr></blockquote>

Then why do people get pissy when a character dies in a comic book? I mean it's n o t r e a l right?

[quote]Originally posted by brett:
Aphterburn,

For someone who is so quick to point out to others that 'it's only fiction, it's not real', I'd take a bit of my own advice, calm down and get off my soap box. After all, they aren't real. They're only comic books.

<hr></blockquote>

Hey man, I'm cool as a cucumber. Just fighting for my life in here.

EDIT: I started to get blue there at the end. I am not, NOT trying to bite off the Blue Spider. (Get it? Bite off the...nevermind.)

The Blue Spider

11-23-2002, 04:32 PM

I've read the current GL crop. It honestly bores me. I also think that the gay-basher-basher story arc is sensationalistic crap and I knew it was coming two months after they introed the gay character. I guessed. "Someone is Kyle's inner circle is hurt and he must accept that he cannot protect every one he cares about." That was actually his very first storyline with Alex DeWitt and Major Force!
What a derivative and sensationalistic farce.

I don't care whether it lives or dies, I thought I made that clear.

as for Bruce Wayne: Murdr-Fugger... regardless of my opinion that comic series was so off the wall. Rucka totally mishandled police procedure and even messed up how newspapers decide what makes a front page headline.

Furthermore, the idea that Bruce Wayne has been falsely accused of murder occurred earlier in an a Shadows of the Bat story arc and even further back in Batman #5. The idea of Batman beign accused of murder and on the run was done in the seventies in a multi-parter called "Bat-Murderer". Len Wein wrote it, Ra's Al Guhl was the villain and the Creeper guest-starred. Batman was on the run for the murder of Talia.

So it wasn't classic work so much as it was derivative of classic work.

brett

11-23-2002, 05:52 PM

TTroy,

No, I don't have a limited view of comics. I believe superhero comics should be about, well, heroes. The anti-heroes have their own genre and imprint. So do more adult and rather gritty ones, it's called vertigo.

And BTW, I did read David's Aquaman, for about 10 issues before dropping it. That's not to say I don't like his writing. He's a great writer. I just didn't go for the whole 'Captain Hook' Aquaman thing. And neither did a lot of people otherwise they wouldn't be giving him his hand back, what, not even 10 years later. But then given DC's inconsistancies with their characters, that's to be expected.

And Aphterburn, I was just going on what you said: DC's books appeal to people of all ages.
Yet an 11 year old girl couldn't comprehend Wonder Woman or Green Lantern.

Sorry guy, but that's a problem.

When mainstream superhero comics are written for an audience above college, basically because only they can comprehend all the inconsistancies and keep track of everything, there's something wrong.

And if that's the case, it's no wonder why companies can't get new readers into the shops.

There was a time when comics actually WERE written for people of all ages, when, anyone could pick up a comic and understand the story from start to finish. THAT's when sales soared and reached into the hundreds of thousands of copies (even millions) per month. As a matter of fact, one of the basic editorial rules to their creators USED to be: every comic is someone's first.

Obviously, that's no longer the case... and why sales are dwindling into the 30,000.

But again, it all began with ridiculous story concepts like, murdering, psychotic Hal Jordan Green Lantern.

The Blue Spider

11-23-2002, 09:32 PM

Actually I keep thinking that it started when all-ages characters in all-ages comics like Superman and Spider-Man say "damn".

aphterburn

11-23-2002, 10:13 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
I've read the current GL crop. It honestly bores me. I also think that the gay-basher-basher story arc is sensationalistic crap and I knew it was coming two months after they introed the gay character. I guessed. "Someone is Kyle's inner circle is hurt and he must accept that he cannot protect every one he cares about." That was actually his very first storyline with Alex DeWitt and Major Force!
What a derivative and sensationalistic farce.

I don't care whether it lives or dies, I thought I made that clear.

as for Bruce Wayne: Murdr-Fugger... regardless of my opinion that comic series was so off the wall. Rucka totally mishandled police procedure and even messed up how newspapers decide what makes a front page headline.

Furthermore, the idea that Bruce Wayne has been falsely accused of murder occurred earlier in an a Shadows of the Bat story arc and even further back in Batman #5. The idea of Batman beign accused of murder and on the run was done in the seventies in a multi-parter called "Bat-Murderer". Len Wein wrote it, Ra's Al Guhl was the villain and the Creeper guest-starred. Batman was on the run for the murder of Talia.

So it wasn't classic work so much as it was derivative of classic work.<hr></blockquote>

Sensationalistic? How? Because the guy was gay? GL bores you more now than when square-jawed Hal was fighting the villain of the week? Could your obvious Hal bias be more....well....OBVIOUS?

Now you're trying to tell me that Greg Rucka doesn't do his homework? You've got to be kidding. This guy rides the beat with cops, and has been for years just to make SURE he's getting it right. By the way, I work for a newspaper and Rucka did us just fine.

You seem to keep jumping on this "derivative" as an argument. There's a new song out now. It's called "No Idea's Original". You might want to check it out. It's all about delivery.

I just wanna make sure I heard you right...you've dissed both Greg "crime comics are my business" Rucka AND Batman? Wow. Do you feel okay?

The Blue Spider

11-24-2002, 03:15 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:


Sensationalistic? How? Because the guy was gay? GL bores you more now than when square-jawed Hal was fighting the villain of the week? Could your obvious Hal bias be more....well....OBVIOUS?

Now you're trying to tell me that Greg Rucka doesn't do his homework? You've got to be kidding. This guy rides the beat with cops, and has been for years just to make SURE he's getting it right. By the way, I work for a newspaper and Rucka did us just fine.

You seem to keep jumping on this "derivative" as an argument. There's a new song out now. It's called "No Idea's Original". You might want to check it out. It's all about delivery.

I just wanna make sure I heard you right...you've dissed both Greg "crime comics are my business" Rucka AND Batman? Wow. Do you feel okay?<hr></blockquote>


It's always a sensational treatment when normal evil human beings are treated as inhuman monsters on the cover. Not content to let me judge them by their actions I see the cover as beaten and bloody young man held up by people without eyes. What may be used for ocular perception has been shadowed out.

Into this comes a hero who pulls behind him a question of "will [the protaganist] ever be the same? will he finally learn that he can't protect everyone he cares for?"

Filled with self-righteous anger our hero breaks into prison and tortures the criminal using only the slightest of his powers.

Then he stops just short of murdering two more criminals.

It was sensationalistic because instead of using words or simple examples of regular human life they used samples of the most extreme and violent portions of our daily existence.

Basically I cannot see a dramatized Matthew Shepard fable as anything less than overkill to create a standard morality play and I saw it as a supposed lesson delivered loudly.

It was sensationalistic because it was loud instead of quiet. It screamed rather than spoke. It used the depiction of violence to gain attention rather than trusting me to get the point.

Derivation of a theme is fine now and then. Even the quote that there are no new ideas is old (not new as some believe). The delivery was cold and over-hyped. I expected more. I got a Batman-themed rerun of the "Death of Clark Kent" where Superman sheds his identity, "Superman: the King of the World" where Superman sheds his identity, and the Mr Xavier saga from the late seventies where Superman sheds his identity.

Combined with the post-2000 rendition of "what if Batman got framed for murder?"

Or the fable of Batman learning the virtues of teamwork. I guess Batman did not learn the lesson from No Man's Land. But I was told he did a few years ago.

The moral is old. Learn teamwork, Bruce.

[quote]The Bruce Wayne:Murderer arc, running through the Bat-titles through March, is supposed to offer a real whodunit and challenge readers to solve this crime before the killer is revealed. There are hints that we are supposed to believe it's a possibility that Batman himself pumped four shots into his former lady love. Yeah, right.

So far, the quality of the arc has been poor, with situations being warped to fit the plot. Bruce speaks to the cops before asking for a lawyer, Sasha is arrested as an accomplice although the only evidence against her seems to be that she was in Wayne Manor at the time, the cops are convinced they have the right guy even though lots of weirdoes hang out in Gotham and despite the fact that Bruce Wayne has no history of violence.

Oh, and the murder weapon was found out on the Wayne Manor lawn but nobody seems to think it unusual that Bruce shot his girlfriend, ran OUTSIDE to ditch the gun, then ran back in to cradle her bloodied body and look guilty just as the police break down the front door.

<hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.bibliora.com/P5_0302/html/batman10c.html" target="_blank">from a review of Batman: the 10-cent Adventure at Phase 5</a>

--The police did nothing to prevent a media air armada, thus messing up the grass and preventing the obtainment of evidence.
--The richest man in Gotham did not follow the standard millionaire tactic of hiring a practical flotilla of powerful charismatic lawyers for a murder trial? That's not real.
--Bruce Wayne being the only suspect? That's unreal.
--A convicted prisoner, however famous, beats up people in his own cell, that is obviosuly not those people's cell and that is front page, above the fold news for a major metropolitan newspaper? That's real?
--Vigilantes who arrived after the cops made a better search of a murder victims home? There was still obvious stuff left for a vigilante to investigate?
--A chalk outline?

I've wasted too much time on these questions.
I doubt your credentials as much as I doubt your supposed age.

No, I don't doubt that Rucka doesn't do his homework. I'm saying he failed my final exam. When it comes to sales he succeeded. When it comes to entertaining the masses he succeeded. When it came to entertaining me... I rolled my eyes.

I actually feel rather agitated because I'm hyped on caffeine and up at 2 AM. And it's my own fault for staying up to see a great movie.

The Blue Spider

11-24-2002, 04:46 AM

We've started insulting each other on matters of personal taste.

We've crossed certain lines that intelligent people shouldn't cross.

That said, what bores me might not bore others.

That said, conceits are made lesser when the parallels between the fiction and the reality decrease.

Credentials do not prevent mistakes. Ever.

11-24-2002, 06:50 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
I have graduated high school and college (as if I have to justify this). Insults? I mean really? I can grasp an analogy, but yours was just a really bad one.<hr></blockquote>

...You sure could have fooled me, kid. Either way, the more I re-read what I posted, tossing ego aside I'm convinced my analogy is accurate. What I hypothetically had some Limey hack do to Honest Abe was EXACTLY what was done to Hal Jordan in Emerald Twilight. They too 30 years of characterization and threw it out the window after washing the mess down with Hal suddenly being a drunk(*).

Then again, be grateful that I used the Abe analogy. My first notion was to have the Limey hack come in and retcon Jesus Christ into an IRS employee...

(*) I suspect the "creative" staff either watched or read Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff without doing any followups on the writings of Cassutt or (Andy) Chaikin. Ergo, Hal's a test pilot, he's also got to be a drunk. Yeah, right...

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
We've started insulting each other on matters of personal taste.

We've crossed certain lines that intelligent people shouldn't cross.

That said, what bores me might not bore others.

That said, conceits are made lesser when the parallels between the fiction and the reality decrease.

Credentials do not prevent mistakes. Ever.<hr></blockquote>

...You know, we've got to find some music to fit this prose. Maybe something by the Moody Blue Spiders? :-) :-) :-) ;-)

Breathe deep, the gathering gloom. Reed Richards fights with Dr. Doom...

The Blue Spider

11-24-2002, 02:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by OM:


...You know, we've got to find some music to fit this prose. Maybe something by the Moody Blue Spiders? :-) :-) :-) ;-)

Breathe deep, the gathering gloom. Reed Richards fights with Dr. Doom...<hr></blockquote>

I'm thinking some kinda funeral march. Not quite taps but something like it.

Something to mourn the end of reason and to signal that many a war drums started beating because some liked the old and some just love the new.

aphterburn

11-24-2002, 07:24 PM

"I've wasted too much time on these questions.
I doubt your credentials as much as I doubt your supposed age."

Blue Spider, you are unquestionably passionate about the quality and accuracy of your entertainment. Your rebuttal skills need the slightest bit of tweaking though. I would suggest in the future you stick to facts (in this case, pretentious opinion) and focus less on personal attacks. Not necessarily to avoid annoying the ones to whom you speak, namely me, but to sidestep de-valuing otherwise decent points with holier-than-thou quips. I sincerely hope the Internet is what makes people as pompous as they come off on here, and they truly are not the asses they seem to be.

I could attempt to tell you why Bruce Wayne, a man who masquerades at night as bat would not want a team of lawyers swarming around him. I could also attempt to point out to you the ineptitude of the GCPD, as well as the evidence that could only be found by the Bat-family in the super secret Batcave since the police would be unaware of it's existence. I could try to prove to the people here of my age and occupacion. Then again, why bother?

Bottom line: sorry you don't like Batman, Greg Rucka's writing, Kyle Rayner, DC Comics, or the current Green Lantern book.

OM, Hal Jordan's character was a human being...a strong, honorable one. Then in grief, he made a mistake. Then he made another. And another. He lost his grip. It happens to the best of men. Emerald Twilight didn't reveal any off-the-wall secrets. It just showed that the best of us can be broken. Hal broke. You can debate the merits of why the writers would choose this course for H.J. but it's hardly implausible.

All that being said, there no real reason for me to go back down any of these roads.

BigCheese

11-24-2002, 08:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by drgoodhead:
I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!!!! i had to register to voice my displeasure with the above statement by JMD. the guy is basically ADMITTING that they messed up, that they were not writing to suit EITHER audience, but they still did it because they could??!!?? waste 2 whole years and then blame it on the market??!!<hr></blockquote>

What I can't believe is how self-centered people are sometimes. How about reading this statement the way it was intended?

"We know there are lot of nut-balls out there who won't be happy until they get things exactly the way they want (and then will bitch because the stories are dull), so instead of catering to eeither the Hal or Corrigan wack-jobs we'll tell stories with this compelling character we have and hope we can find an intelligent audience that can enjoy them for what they are."

The only sad part is that they didn't find enough of an audience, since hte series was good.

BigCheese

11-24-2002, 08:36 PM

I just love people who are willing to make outrageous claims just as they have admitted they haven't read the material in question. Judging from this he must have stopped reading, oh about 10 years ago with GL #50.

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


Well, I stopped reading a long time ago, but I never saw any indication of things getting better. He never bothered to learn anything about the history of the ring,

False. He didn't at first but since then he's been very interested in the history. Witness #100.

 what it could do. He never bothered to train, or practice. 

False again. And the statement that leads me to believe you really quit with #50. In #52 he's learning what he can do and training. We've also seen him training with other heroes, like J'Onn in a JLA issue.

{QB] He never bothered to check on planets outside of his own.[/QB]

This is getting tedious. So the time he went to that alien planet to prevent civil war... the time he went to the cyborg planet and just now, that he's gone to patrol other worlds. All those don't count, do they?

 I often wonder how many people have died because a Green Lantern wasn't there to help them. 

Imagine how many people died on Earth while Hal was in space. Or in space while he was on Earth. That's a pretty dumb argument.

 He soes not respect his power or the role he has been cast in (or stolen, from my point of view). 

*SIGH*

 I don't have a choice in what I do. I care more about this than most of you will ever understand,

And I for one are VERY relieved by that.

{QB] and, someday, I will see it set right.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

So you're planning on becoming DCs head-honcho, are you?

The Blue Spider

11-24-2002, 09:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
"I've wasted too much time on these questions.
I doubt your credentials as much as I doubt your supposed age."

Blue Spider, you are unquestionably passionate about the quality and accuracy of your entertainment. Your rebuttal skills need the slightest bit of tweaking though. I would suggest in the future you stick to facts (in this case, pretentious opinion) and focus less on personal attacks. Not necessarily to avoid annoying the ones to whom you speak, namely me, but to sidestep de-valuing otherwise decent points with holier-than-thou quips. I sincerely hope the Internet is what makes people as pompous as they come off on here, and they truly are not the asses they seem to be.

I could attempt to tell you why Bruce Wayne, a man who masquerades at night as bat would not want a team of lawyers swarming around him. I could also attempt to point out to you the ineptitude of the GCPD, as well as the evidence that could only be found by the Bat-family in the super secret Batcave since the police would be unaware of it's existence. I could try to prove to the people here of my age and occupacion. Then again, why bother?

Bottom line: sorry you don't like Batman, Greg Rucka's writing, Kyle Rayner, DC Comics, or the current Green Lantern book.

OM, Hal Jordan's character was a human being...a strong, honorable one. Then in grief, he made a mistake. Then he made another. And another. He lost his grip. It happens to the best of men. Emerald Twilight didn't reveal any off-the-wall secrets. It just showed that the best of us can be broken. Hal broke. You can debate the merits of why the writers would choose this course for H.J. but it's hardly implausible.

All that being said, there no real reason for me to go back down any of these roads.<hr></blockquote>

If I didn't like Batman why would I critique a story?

Although the GCPD being inept does throw out the idea that Commissionor Gordon cleaned up the force and improved it.

Which means that ineptitude was introduced as a contrivance to justity the continuation of a series.

"why didn't this obvious thing happen?"
"because the characters are inept."

and of course, insanity has proven to be the greatest deux ex machina for contrived moments in comics. even the best of men go insane. anyone and everyone can become insane. the best of us can go insane.

I'm insane.

The Power of Shazam

11-24-2002, 09:50 PM

Its a shame that DC Comics management chose to destroy Hal Jordan as Green Lantern in 1994. It was just sad to see Hal break out and become a psychotic mass murderer/villain. I was a huge GL fan, and Jordan was the best of them all.

I thought it was way out of character, and you can tell by the way Emerald Twilight was done. It seemed rush, and the final product shows. Don't forget, there was also a two month delay if I remember correctly before GL # 48 came out (showing that DC dumped writer Gerard Jones' planned story for GL 48 to 50, in favor of changing GLs for better sales, with Ron Marz coming in as writer). Sales were going down on GL at the time, and DC gave the power to the editor of GL for any drastic changes to be done.
We all know what happened since then.

Killing Hal off in 1996's "Final Night" was like the final nail in the coffin to many Jordan fans. Making Hal become the Spectre later on was weird, but at least he was on the good side again, and to redeem his bad deeds was an interesting plot angle.

I like Kyle Rayner as GL. He's a cool character and all, I just don't like the way he became GL. Still, what DC chose to do to Hal Jordan is still one of the most drastic changes ever done in comic book history on one character, and the anger still is out there by many Hal Jordan fans today. This can never be changed now.

Its sad to see the Spectre get cancelled, but I hope that its also not the end of Hal Jordan.

The Blue Spider

11-25-2002, 01:58 AM

[quote]Originally posted by The Power of Shazam:
Its a shame that DC Comics management chose to destroy Hal Jordan as Green Lantern in 1994. It was just sad to see Hal break out and become a psychotic mass murderer/villain. I was a huge GL fan, and Jordan was the best of them all.

I thought it was way out of character, and you can tell by the way Emerald Twilight was done. It seemed rush, and the final product shows. Don't forget, there was also a two month delay if I remember correctly before GL # 48 came out (showing that DC dumped writer Gerard Jones' planned story for GL 48 to 50, in favor of changing GLs for better sales, with Ron Marz coming in as writer). Sales were going down on GL at the time, and DC gave the power to the editor of GL for any drastic changes to be done.
We all know what happened since then.

Killing Hal off in 1996's "Final Night" was like the final nail in the coffin to many Jordan fans. Making Hal become the Spectre later on was weird, but at least he was on the good side again, and to redeem his bad deeds was an interesting plot angle.

I like Kyle Rayner as GL. He's a cool character and all, I just don't like the way he became GL. Still, what DC chose to do to Hal Jordan is still one of the most drastic changes ever done in comic book history on one character, and the anger still is out there by many Hal Jordan fans today. This can never be changed now.

Its sad to see the Spectre get cancelled, but I hope that its also not the end of Hal Jordan.<hr></blockquote>

well, stuff can be forgotten with time.

the absolute worst part of this debacle is that the "seams were showing" which is how Peter David refers to it being obvious that certain things are more... agenda-driven than actually driven by creative action and regard to plot, attention to elements, and character.

paulski

11-25-2002, 04:07 AM

Man, I agree with so much of this post...

[quote]Originally posted by Scott Wherle:
I was never particularly a Green Lantern fan nor did I hate the character, yet picked the book up when I found out Hal had gone off the deep end. The premise was intriguing so I checked it out. I found a lot to like about Kyle, so I continued to read the book...for a while. Got boring, so I dropped it. Not because I hated Kyle or because Hal wasn't around, I was just bored with it. Thing is, the title was in desperate need of some juice and the murderous Hal story provided it. He was later redeemed by sacrificing himself to save the world. I was satisfied. But then, I'm not a REAL Hal fan...<hr></blockquote>

Tick, tick and tick.

Yeah, I started buying GL with issue #48 because of the carnage that was going on in the Twilight storyline. Like you, I hadn't been a past GL reader which probably explains why I was/we were able to keep an open mind about the story and judge it on its merits, not past preconceptions.
And yeah, it was a good story.

[quote]Those who say none of the above applies to Kyle are deluded by their love for Hal. Kyle had no interest in being a hero, but he wasn't given a choice. He had to step up to the plate and he did. He is, however, human, so he made mistakes along the way.<hr></blockquote>

Exactly. Kyle Rayner was a different character to Hal Jordan. Better? Probably not. Who knows? But different. So comparing the two is rather pointless.

[quote]"Hal wouldn't act this way. He wouldn't do that." Blah, blah, blah.
Sorry, but you didn't create the character, you don't own him, write him, nor do you have any particular stake in him other than your love for him. YOU don't dictate what he does. The writers do and if they're good writers, the character dictates what he does.<hr></blockquote>

Nuff said.

[quote]The change from Hal to Kyle generated a whole lot of new interest in the book, which remained for quite some time. DC is a business. In order to stay in business, they have to sell comic books. Sometimes, that involves making radical changes to their characters to generate sales. I'd say they were quite successful in this instance.<hr></blockquote>

Spot on, again. All of this came about around the time of Knightfall and Death of Superman. DC tried to revitalise a flagging title in Green Lantern by applying their 'event book' approach to GL as well. Did it sell more books? Certainly did. Did it piss off a lot of Hal fans? Certainly did. But them's the breaks.

[quote]Sure, I was scratching my head wondering why Hal was suddenly a murderer, but the premise made me want to find out. The man watched millions die in Coast City, tried to resurrect them, was unsuccessful, asked for more power, was denied and went off the deep end. Can you say that you wouldn't do everything in your power to resurrect millions of people? The powerlust to save millions corrupted him, resulting in the destruction fo the Corps and his attempts to rewrite the universe in his image, righting all wrongs in the process. Pretty natural progression if you ask me.<hr></blockquote>

Pretty perfect summary of DC's thinking behind the storyline, I dare say. Although I'd never collected the title for any great length of time, I had been familiar with the character for over a decade before this story and I found the whole thing entirely plausible.

[quote]Hal is the Spectre now. Personally, I thought it was a pretty slick move for DC to bring him back as the Spirit of Vengeance. Haven't read any of it, so I can't comment, but at least the idea was solid.<hr></blockquote>

I thought the idea was just brilliant. Bring back Jordan as a hero, but a different one. And yet an already established one. Great concept!

F*cking poorly executed one, however.

I was so hyped for the new Spectre series. After one issue, I was worried. After four, I bolted. No more of that crap for me, thanks.

In closing, perhaps the character of Hal Jordan had been treated a little shabbily in Twilight and he was denied the honorable death Barry Allen was given. But I feel Final Night made up for any perceived 'mistreatment' and should have satisfied even the most diehard HJ fan. But judging from the posts on this thread, I'm sadly deluded. :(