SPECTRE OF THE PAST - AND FUTURE [Archive]

MattBrady

11-21-2002, 11:27 AM

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla1_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #1" border="0" align="right"></a>by Alex Segura Jr.

Hal Jordan has been through a lot the last few years, from top dog Green Lantern to psychotic mass murderer to DC's resident spirit of vengeance. Now, after overseeing Jordan’s tenure as the Spectre, J.M. DeMatteis is aiming to bring Hal back full circle in the two-issue, prestige format mini-series JLA/Spectre: Soul War beginning in December.

Together with artist Darryl Banks and editor Dan Raspler, DeMatteis will team Jordan with his former friends and colleagues. Given Jordan’s past actions, the meeting isn’t one at which there will be punch and pie.

From the outset, because the story isn’t a straight-up Spectre story, it wasn’t considered for inclusion in the ongoing series (which has now been cancelled). In the works for a while, Soul War was originally planned as a graphic novel, but later split into a two-issue prestige miniseries.

"This book was planned quite some time ago," DeMatteis said. "The reason for it not being part of the monthly book is simple: It's not a Spectre story, it's a JLA story featuring the Spectre. I've had JLA characters guest-star in the monthly but this is different. It's very much a big cosmic tale in the classic Justice League tradition...and, as such, needed its own venue."

The crossover tale will feature something readers of comics have grown familiar with: Aliens. But with a twist. "It's something never seen before in comics: an alien invasion," DeMatteis joked. "Okay, okay, so we've seen alien invasions before...but what's cool about this one is that is has nothing to do with starships and space battles. This is about an invasion of consciousness. A group-mind called the Trans is attacking every living thing on earth from within: mind by mind, soul by soul. And the attack is coming from another level of reality. So it's not a threat that can be stopped with a punch in the face or a blast of heat vision. And that's why the Spectre gets involved."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla3_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #1, page 10 " border="0" align="left"></a>While the alien invasion serves as the thrust of the story, the interaction between classic characters and former friends, like Hal Jordan and Superman makes for the most interesting aspect, according to DeMatteis.

"The character interaction is the heart of the story," DeMatteis said. “Hal/Spectre is an object of suspicion even to JLA members, like Superman, who wants to give him another chance. Hal screwed up and screwed up big. Betrayed all the ideals the JLA stands for. Now he's back as this strange, spooky spirit. How much can they believe him, how far can they trust him? Batman for one doesn't trust him at all...and the Hal-Batman relationship is the one that's explored the most in Soul War."

Having the Spectre interact with old friends like Batman and Superman made writing the story much more fun for DeMatteis. "I enjoyed writing Superman and Batman especially, since they're the icons of icons in the DCU," DeMatteis said. "And it's always fun to write Plastic Man. He's such a thoroughly entertaining character."

Looking from the mini to the soon to be defunct ongoing, DeMatteis is confident that the creative team behind the character managed to move Hal Jordan forward in his new role – one which, as par for the course, fans of both Jordan and the Spectre were skeptical of at first.

"I think the stories at the end of our run really move the character forward in what I think is a new way," DeMatteis notes. "Spectre #26, in particular, is an issue I'm extremely proud of. So, on one level, it feels complete. Yet Hal's journey was, in many ways, just beginning. His evolution both as a man seeking redemption and a spirit seeking to change the world can still be taken in so many wonderful directions. So there's some regret, yes. But after twenty-seven issues, great collaborators like editor Dan Raspler and artists Michael Zulli, Ryan Sook, Craig Hamilton, Lou Larosa and Norm Breyfogle. Well, I can't complain too much."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla4_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #1, page 17 " border="0" align="right"></a>Realizing that Hal Jordan was a viable character was reason enough for DC to have him take on the mantle of the Spectre after the spirit’s former host, Jim Corrigan moved on. Because of the many crimes he perpetrated at the end of his life, it seemed fitting, in a cosmic sense, to send Jordan on a quest to redeem himself.

"I think DC realized that Hal Jordan was too good a character to leave in limbo," DeMatteis said. "Making him the Spectre was one way of bringing him back without actually resurrecting him. The Spectre connection also allowed the character to directly deal with some of the horrible things he did, as Hal Jordan, toward the end of his life. The guy was a murderer, after all -- and you couldn't just bring him back, give him a ring, and send him out into the world as if nothing ever happened."

Of course, DeMatteis faced a daunting challenge when taking the reins of the Spectre: Green Lantern fans wanted Hal Jordan fans as GL and Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan. "I think one of the problems we faced was that the Hal Jordan fans wanted their old Green Lantern back," DeMatteis said. "The Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan stories...so we were constantly walking an edge - and occasionally falling off it - between those two camps. There was also the fact that Hal was previously a super-hero...and The Spectre is not, nor was it ever, a super-hero book. So I think many people had their expectations confounded. I also think there were certain people that so objected to the Hal-Spectre fusion that nothing we could do would please them."

<a href="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://classic.newsarama.com/DC/spectrejla2_t.jpg" width="175" height="265" alt="JLA/Spectre: Soul War #2" border="0" align="left"></a>"That said, and given the parameters of the series, I was generally allowed to write the stories I wanted to. Yes, I occasionally threw in elements to please those old school diehards - the recent Sinestro storyline was certainly meant for them - but I could never betray my basic vision of the character. Bottom line: I got to tell some stories I was proud of and make some, I hope, worthwhile statements about Life, the Universe, and Everything. Not a bad gig! Instead of focusing on why were cancelled, I choose to celebrate the fact that, in the current market, we hung around for more than two years."

As it was for some fans, and having grown up with the Jim Corrigan version of the Spectre, DeMatteis had problems accepting Hal Jordan as the Spectre at first. "It was hard for me in the beginning!" DeMatteis exclaimed. "I wondered if the book would have worked better if we'd just taken some new, unknown character and turned him, or her, into the Spectre. Then we could have moved forward without all of Hal's baggage. That said, once I started working on the series, I saw all the potential for great stories in the Hal Jordan Spectre. And that potential has hardly been tapped -- so I think there's a great future ahead for the character."

Frank

11-21-2002, 11:39 AM

I'll be checking this out. DeMatteis and the JLA is always a great combination.

DC really dropped the ball with Hal Jordan and needlessly abused the character. But I think Dematteis has done much to redeem him.

RotSman

11-21-2002, 11:41 AM

The Spectre failed, in my view, because it SHOULD have been a Vertigo book. Take the reins off! SHOW what Hal did that was so bad, and show what the Spectre does as the Spirit of Vengeance!

I think that Hal/Spectre is better than no Hal/no Spectre...it might be interesting to see the character in either more of a mainstream role or a totally Vertigo-esque setting.

Matt

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 11:41 AM

If DC really cared about Hal Jordan, they wouldn't bother with redeeming him, but rather EXHONORATING him of all wrong doing. It wasn't Hal. It could never have been Hal. Anything less is unacceptable.

Jim Corrigan should be Spectre.
Hal Jordan should be Green Lantern.

That is the natural order of things.

Act of God

11-21-2002, 11:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:

Jim Corrigan should be Spectre.
Hal Jordan should be Green Lantern.

That is the natural order of things.<hr></blockquote>
Said the person who still believes trousers should only be worn by men...

cncoyle

11-21-2002, 11:47 AM

While I'm a born-again "Hal as Green Lantern" fan, I must admit that nearly every story featuring the new Spectre has been great, especially the issue of JLA after Judgement Day. (Side note: Is it "judgment" or "judgement"?) I'll take Hal any way I can get him, I guess...

Kevin T. Brown

11-21-2002, 11:52 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Jim Corrigan should be Spectre.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I definitely agree with that statement!

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Hal Jordan should be Green Lantern.<hr></blockquote>

And, no, Hal Jordan should be dead. He was Green Lantern as was Abin Sur was before him.

BoyWonder

11-21-2002, 11:57 AM

I reckon that DC didn't use Hal properly at all. If he was going to be bad then they should have made him bad for a good long while. He could have become the ultimate tragic villian. A kind of Dr Doom character for DC.

This Spectre business strikes me as a bit of a halfway house and doesn't have any real direction. Either exhonerate Hal of all wrong doing and make him a GL or keep him bad. If DC bring him back then create a new corps. Kyle Rayner is a very lame character.

aphterburn

11-21-2002, 12:02 PM

Hal Jordan can not be exhonorated, because Hal Jordan did it. He is a murderer. He is not Green Lantern anymore. Cut the crap with the "Hal would never do that". He did do it. Period.

P.S. Hal did it.

gwangung

11-21-2002, 12:07 PM

The Spectre is Jim Corrigan?

Ah, no. After Ostrander's definitive series, there's no way a Jim Corrigan Spectre would ever work for me. Now, another character, with a different set of hangups...that would work well...and probably in the Vertigo universe...

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 12:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Act of God:

Said the person who still believes trousers should only be worn by men...<hr></blockquote>

Excuse me? Just because I prefer classic comics and characters doesn't make me some kind of woman bashing sexist. You insult me. There is a difference in PROGRESS and what DC has done to the legacy of its classic characters. I am not against change, but I despise change for change's sake. It there had been one iota of logical progression in what they did to Hal, I wouldn't be nearly as opposed to what happened. Hal was the best GL, PERIOD. Anyone else is just a second rate replacement. I think you should consider your opinion more before attacking someone's social beliefs on a comic board.

P.S. Personally, I think women look good in pants and business suits. It's those frilly dresses I can't stand.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 12:31 PM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
Hal Jordan can not be exhonorated, because Hal Jordan did it. He is a murderer. He is not Green Lantern anymore. Cut the crap with the "Hal would never do that". He did do it. Period.

P.S. Hal did it.<hr></blockquote>

HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him. He's seen entire planets get wiped out before, and he's supposed to break down and cry over one city? None of his loved ones were even there at the time! And the way the Guardians reacted to his grief was toatlly off base. "Can't use your ring for personal things." Yeah, you're not supposed to, but he did it all the time and they never said squat. If Ron Marz had acctually bother to ever read Green Lantern books, he would have known that.
It is in fact tha logical thing to assuem he didn't do it. It only makes sense.
It could easily be an evil twin, clone, robotic doppelganger, mind control, etc. So many opportunities are out there. HAL must return.

P.S. Hal Did NOT do it! And I will never believe that he did.

saiyanspider

11-21-2002, 12:41 PM

i don't see what the big deal is hal jordon sucks he's dead, he's the spectre end of story. kyle rayner and john stewart kick butt end of storry II

EvolutionBaby

11-21-2002, 01:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him. He's seen entire planets get wiped out before, and he's supposed to break down and cry over one city? None of his loved ones were even there at the time! And the way the Guardians reacted to his grief was toatlly off base. "Can't use your ring for personal things." Yeah, you're not supposed to, but he did it all the time and they never said squat. If Ron Marz had acctually bother to ever read Green Lantern books, he would have known that.
It is in fact tha logical thing to assuem he didn't do it. It only makes sense.
It could easily be an evil twin, clone, robotic doppelganger, mind control, etc. So many opportunities are out there. HAL must return.

P.S. Hal Did NOT do it! And I will never believe that he did.<hr></blockquote>

I should hope the writers made him do it, after all, we are talking about a work of fiction are we not?

Choose whichever side you wish on this matter, I loved Hal as GL, but the changes were made, and I learned to deal with them. Kyle is just fine as GL now, and I enjoy Hal being the Spectre. I wish the ongoing hadn't failed, but there were too many times in the book where I felt bored by the stories rather than entertained. I will say the Sinistro story that just wrapped up was a step in the right direction, and I will look forward to picking this book up.

BriRi

11-21-2002, 01:12 PM

HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him.

And who was it that made him a hero....oh that's right. Writers.

Hal did do it, in as much as any CHARACTER does anything in a work of FICTION, just like he did all the heroic things before he went nuts. Making it a clone or evil twin...well THAT would be a horrible story.

Please get over it.
Your hatred for all things Non-Hal are causing you to miss some pretty decent stories.

SpaceDog

11-21-2002, 01:22 PM

The Spectre failed because DeMatteis wrote it horribly. The concept could have made for an excellent book if garbage wasn't spewed forth month to month. I'm surprised it lasted this long without a writer change or cancellation. Blech.

Too bad. Wasted concept.

SpaceDog

11-21-2002, 01:23 PM

[quote]HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him.<hr></blockquote>

You really ought to read or watch Misery.

samnoir

11-21-2002, 01:26 PM

I was always surprised that the Ostrander/Mandrake Spetre series didn't make the transition into Vertigo like all the other Mature Readers books.

J.M. DeMatteis' creator owned work like Moonshadow and Greenberg the Vampire is fantastic stuff, I hope he has an opportunity to pursue more non-superhero stuff in the future.

Looking forward to his collaboration with Keith Giffen on the Formerly Known as the Justice League series.
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Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 01:30 PM

[quote]


And who was it that made him a hero....oh that's right. Writers.

Hal did do it, in as much as any CHARACTER does anything in a work of FICTION, just like he did all the heroic things before he went nuts. Making it a clone or evil twin...well THAT would be a horrible story.

Please get over it.
Your hatred for all things Non-Hal are causing you to miss some pretty decent stories.<hr></blockquote>

First of all, the writers who made HAL a hero are not involved in this. The fact is, many of them at the time of the coup were blackballed from the industry and couldn't get work. (If you can find a copy, check out Gerard Jones's book "The Comic Book Heroes").

Secondly, I do not hate all things Non-HAL. I do hate Kyle Rayner, but not because he isn't HAL. I hate him because he is no hero. He is ignorant, selfish, and cowardly, all things a Green Lantern is not supposed to be. I don't have any problems with John or Guy.

As a charachte, HAL was treated shamefully. And, yes, I do care about what happens to him. Is that so wrong? People say "It's just a comic, it's fictional." I don't understand how these people can be comic fans al all. I care a great deal about the heroes who set an example for me and the rest of the world. They used to stand for something. What lessons does Kyle Rayner teach us? If you get super powers, you can sleep with super heroines? That's the only message I ever got out of it. HAL stood for something, something near and dear to my heart. I am saddened more and more every day that I endure his loss.

I am less concerned about a horrible story and more concerned with the end result. who cares if it's cheesey as long as it works? I have missed no decent stories, because none have been told. I stuck with GL until issue 80 or so after the end of HAL. I found the books to be bland and the character to be unlikeable. Where was all the majesty, the cosmic significance? It was gone, snuffed out like HAL was. I just didn't like it.

I will not get over it. No true comic fan would. It is my duty to defend what I believe in and to convince DC to make things right for the good of the world.

Icewing_X

11-21-2002, 01:32 PM

As much as I like Banks' art, I'll pass on this one. I just have no interest in either The Spectre or Hal Jordan.

~Icewing, great art, though, truly

BLACK

11-21-2002, 01:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by EvolutionBaby:


I should hope the writers made him do it, after all, we are talking about a work of fiction are we not?

Choose whichever side you wish on this matter, I loved Hal as GL, but the changes were made, and I learned to deal with them. Kyle is just fine as GL now, and I enjoy Hal being the Spectre. I wish the ongoing hadn't failed, but there were too many times in the book where I felt bored by the stories rather than entertained. I will say the Sinistro story that just wrapped up was a step in the right direction, and I will look forward to picking this book up.<hr></blockquote>

I completely agree with your statement on the whole Jordan/Rayner issue. I also wish that the ongoing had not been canceled as I enjoyed it as well up to the point where Ryan Sook left the book. I was planning on picking it back up once there was change in the artistic direction. I just haven't been that big a fan of Norm Breyfogle's art since he left Detective a long time ago and I enjoyed it immensely with Sook's sense of great storytelling and design. I enjoyed his work on B.P.R.D. and look forward to the Arkham mini-series.

peace.

Gelogurte

11-21-2002, 01:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by RotSman:
The Spectre failed, in my view, because it SHOULD have been a Vertigo book. Take the reins off! SHOW what Hal did that was so bad, and show what the Spectre does as the Spirit of Vengeance!<hr></blockquote>

I agree! The problem I had with Spectre it's because it was not a super hero book and it was not an Vertigo book. It was trying to be both and failing on both (that's just my opinion).

And people... stop talking about comic book characters like if they were actual people. It's really creepy! The characters goes to a certain point. After that, it's all about the writer! That's what editors are for! If Hal Jordan killed the GL Corps, he freaking did it! It's not some evil plot from the "evil masterminds of Marvel that replaced Hal with one of the Peter Parker clones".

Oh, and these alien things look like that monster Beholder from Dungeons & Dragons.

Frank

11-21-2002, 01:38 PM

I thought the whole storyline where Hal had his nervous breakdown and then became a murderer was indicative of everything bad about mid-ninties comics. Creatively, the storyline had potential but the result was dross.

But it's allowed for the character to grow. THE SPECTRE is a good read and I think it's going to be really cool to see Hal and the JLA together again not because I want to see Hal as a Green Lantern ever again (not that I'd complain, mind you), but simply because the characters have all grown. The interaction will be interesting.

As much as I believe that Hal Jordan was the most defiled and abused character in DC's long history, DeMatteis has taken the mess and turned it into something worthwhile. He's allowed the character to grow and that is much more imporant to me than picking up an issue of Green Lantern and seeing that Hal Jordan has been up to the same shit he's been up to fifty years or whatever.

The Big Red 1

11-21-2002, 01:43 PM

I love Hal Jordan...always have. GL-Hal Jordan has always been one of my favorite characters.

Did I like what happened to Hal? No. Did I like what happened to Barry Allen? No, again. I didn't like it when barry was killed in the Crisis, but it was a noble, heroic death and DC has wisely allowed Barry to rest in peace.

Hal's trip over the edge was unfortunate. DC made a good move with The Final Night where Hal was able to redeem himself by sacrificing himself to save the world. DC should have let Hal rest with Barry. This Spectre nonsense has been ridiculous.

Incidentally since I'm talking about dead characters...why oh why did they have to ressurrect Ollie? I know Dc wanted to let Kevin Smith write one of his favorite caracters (and the first 12 of those issues were pretty good), but this new book will probably be cancelled before the end of 2003.

Lex

11-21-2002, 01:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SpaceDog:
You really ought to read or watch Misery.<hr></blockquote>

Ha! That's brilliant! I never thought to connect rabid "Bring back Hal as GL" fans to that insane lady from Misery.

Y'know... it fits. ;)

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 01:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Gelogurte:


And people... stop talking about comic book characters like if they were actual people. It's really creepy! The characters goes to a certain point. After that, it's all about the writer! That's what editors are for! If Hal Jordan killed the GL Corps, he freaking did it! It's not some evil plot from the "evil masterminds of Marvel that replaced Hal with one of the Peter Parker clones".<hr></blockquote>

By "People" I'll assume you mean me.

Yes, I know the blame lies solely with the writers and editors at DC. I am proposing ways for them to fix it and make it acceptable to the legions of disenfranchised HAL fans out there. A clone would be perfectly acceptable in comic book terms. He does not have to have done it. I do not accept what happened because the people involved put no thought or care into what they were doing. It is disgraceful that a writer (Marz) would even take a job writing a book that he admitted that he never liked or read. He just wanted to change it and piss people off. It's not too late to fix it.

Is it so wrong to care so much about a fictional character? I love what HAL stood for, a man with iron will and a never say die attitude. He was a hero. He was my hero. I do know he's not real, but the way in which he affected people's lives is. It does matter, and I'm sorry that there are so many people who can't understand that.

As former Batman editor Jordan B. Gorfinkel used to say,
"May The Good Guys Live Forever."

There is no reason why they can't.

11-21-2002, 03:35 PM

[quote]JM "Moon Knight Still Sucks" DeMatteis blathered in an attempt to rationalize his failure with Spectre"I think DC realized that Hal Jordan was too good a character to leave in limbo," DeMatteis said. "Making him the Spectre was one way of bringing him back without actually resurrecting him. The Spectre connection also allowed the character to directly deal with some of the horrible things he did, as Hal Jordan, toward the end of his life. The guy was a murderer, after all -- and you couldn't just bring him back, give him a ring, and send him out into the world as if nothing ever happened."<hr></blockquote>

...Then it's time for DC to admit they screwed up, and make it right by the fans by dumping Crab Face Guy and putting Hal back where he belongs - as a Green Lantern. As for Hal being a murderer, there's been a loophole all along in this debacle since the story arc just prior to his getting editorially screwed over.

One word, kids: ergono.

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 03:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Big Red 1:
I love Hal Jordan...always have. GL-Hal Jordan has always been one of my favorite characters.

Did I like what happened to Hal? No. Did I like what happened to Barry Allen? No, again. I didn't like it when barry was killed in the Crisis, but it was a noble, heroic death and DC has wisely allowed Barry to rest in peace.

Hal's trip over the edge was unfortunate. DC made a good move with The Final Night where Hal was able to redeem himself by sacrificing himself to save the world. DC should have let Hal rest with Barry. This Spectre nonsense has been ridiculous.

Incidentally since I'm talking about dead characters...why oh why did they have to ressurrect Ollie? I know Dc wanted to let Kevin Smith write one of his favorite caracters (and the first 12 of those issues were pretty good), but this new book will probably be cancelled before the end of 2003.<hr></blockquote>

I don't really like Judd Winnick or his writing but he's quite popular. The title will last for quite awhile I am sure.

can1

11-21-2002, 03:52 PM

Well the Kyle character not withstanding, what the editors and writers did to Hal is basically unforgivable. Before they even turned him into a mass murderer it was deemed necessary to turn him into a delinquent. The take on this was that by making Hal flawed and no longer a man without fear it made GL and his newly reconed history much more interesting. All it proved to me was that this particular editor and the writer did not have the ability to tell a good Hal/GL story. The character wasn't flawed, the editor was flawed. This is the same editor that imagined Aquaman looking much cooler with a gladiators shoulder armor.

The point is that Hal could have easily just given up being GL after the loss of Coast City. This aspect of his character had been explored in the past. It would not have been much of a stretch for Hal just to say 'thats it, I'm done with this, whats the point'. Far more interesting scenario in my than the cheesey 'multiplex cinema' character. Given the current taste for more 'real time' characters, Hal with a ring, but without the name and costume wandering around from place to place would be a great book.

As I stated earlier I have no beef with Kyle fans. Although I see him as a DC 'Marvel' type character, I can live with him as long as Hal was the senior statesman.

The Spectres untapped potential after the Ostrander/Mandrake series was that this could be anyone. You could clearly have a new Spectre every few years. Just imagine. DC couldn't!!

I hope that somewhere out there is the talent to undo all the harm thats been done. Give us back what was lost and you can keep you little caroon boy GL.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 03:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by OM:


...Then it's time for DC to admit they screwed up, and make it right by the fans by dumping Crab Face Guy and putting Hal back where he belongs - as a Green Lantern. As for Hal being a murderer, there's been a loophole all along in this debacle since the story arc just prior to his getting editorially screwed over.

One word, kids: ergono.<hr></blockquote>

Thanks, OM. I was starting to think I was the only one out here fighting the good fight. I'll have to look at this loophole you're talking about. I've had several theories myself and any number of them would work fine. Most of mine stretch way back into the olden days and I never scrutinized the more recent books.

Did you ever read what Gerard Jones was planning to do with GL 50? He actually had 48 and 49 written when DC just fired him. It was going to be a big war between the Corps and a separatist group of Lanterns and Guardians. Hal was going to absorb the power and become "Protector" and the Zamarons were going to give birth. You can see the original advertisement for "Emerald Twilight" in some books of the time. Sounded like it would have been a cool storyline.

Like or hate Kyle Rayner, there can be no defense of what DC did to the real people who worked on Green Lantern before the coup. Kevin Dooley made a power play and Gerry and the others didn't deserve to be treated the way they were. They couldn't get work for years. It's a disgrace.

can1

11-21-2002, 04:04 PM

I didn't want to name Dooley, but glad you did.

Funny story was when his Aquaman book came out a bunch of customers at St Marks comics were standing around goofing on his new look. Who do you think was standing behind this group (myself included). Dooley. He actually tried to defend the look. We told him it was CRAP.

I say just restart the DC universe every ten years or so. Purge away all the trendy characters (ie Vibe) and tell stories that are faithful in message if not necessarily in detail like Robinson's Starman. Build the mechanism for future change into a current blockbuster and start fresh. Just shake it up every ten years or so - just that simple.

TRaik

11-21-2002, 04:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by samnoir:
I was always surprised that the Ostrander/Mandrake Spetre series didn't make the transition into Vertigo like all the other Mature Readers books.<hr></blockquote>

I seem to recall that the question "Why isn't the Ostrander/Mandrake Spectre series published under the Vertigo imprint?" came up reasonably often, and that Ostrander would occasionally comment that if it were a Vertigo book, it would have to have a different editor, and that he preferred working with the editor (Raspler? Tomasi? I can't remember...) that would be assigned to the book if it remained outside of the Vertigo imprint...

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 04:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
I didn't want to name Dooley, but glad you did.

Funny story was when his Aquaman book came out a bunch of customers at St Marks comics were standing around goofing on his new look. Who do you think was standing behind this group (myself included). Dooley. He actually tried to defend the look. We told him it was CRAP.

I say just restart the DC universe every ten years or so. Purge away all the trendy characters (ie Vibe) and tell stories that are faithful in message if not necessarily in detail like Robinson's Starman. Build the mechanism for future change into a current blockbuster and start fresh. Just shake it up every ten years or so - just that simple.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I will say this for Dooley, he never backed down from a fight. He actually used to respond to my letters and defend the decisions he made. He'd send me things too, like little pins and stuff, like bribery would win me over. Honestly though, most editors wouldn't go to the trouble. His favorite defense was "We told a good story." I guess that's relative, huh? It's too bad that that's all he cared about, like so many fans. I try to convince people its not just about the story, it's about an ideal. Dooley's ideas were just trendy nonsense.

Of course, let's not lay the blame in one place. Mike Carlin and Denny O'Neil had their say in it too. It seems like once Archie Goodwin passed on, those two just went nuts and ransacked the DCU (Anyone remember Knightfall? Thanks, Denny.). It's too bad that there's not someone in charge down there who could really clean house.

Taylor Porter

11-21-2002, 04:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by can1:
The Spectres untapped potential after the Ostrander/Mandrake series was that this could be anyone. You could clearly have a new Spectre every few years. Just imagine. DC couldn't!!
<hr></blockquote>

Without taking sides in the whole Hal/Kyle thing, I think that what you said applies even better to Green Lantern. The whole GL concept seems like wish-fulfillment to me ("A regular guy, just like you, gets a ring that lets him do anything!"). I think the fact that the title was about one guy for almost forty years is kind of a waste. I think it would be neat to see a variety of people with the ring, to see different takes on having that much power. They could tell a lot of different kinds of stories, and I think that could appeal to a lot of people. After decades of one heroic, perfect and flawless hero with the ring, it gets a little dull.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 05:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:


Without taking sides in the whole Hal/Kyle thing, I think that what you said applies even better to Green Lantern. The whole GL concept seems like wish-fulfillment to me ("A regular guy, just like you, gets a ring that lets him do anything!"). I think the fact that the title was about one guy for almost forty years is kind of a waste. I think it would be neat to see a variety of people with the ring, to see different takes on having that much power. They could tell a lot of different kinds of stories, and I think that could appeal to a lot of people. After decades of one heroic, perfect and flawless hero with the ring, it gets a little dull.<hr></blockquote>

That title wasn't about one guy for forty years. It was about 3600 guys. The Green Lantern Corps. That's one of the things that I hate so much about the Kyle era. We used to get a REAL VARIETY of characters and see what they would do with the ring. GL's were never "Regular Guys." They were all different and unque characters, fearless and courageous. There was one classic Corps story by Alan Moore that featured a GL from a planet where the people had no eyes. They could not see, and therefore had no concept of what light was. Since the GL ring uses light to make its constructs, he couldn't comprehend how it worked. So, the Guardians made him a bell, and he used sound waves, a concept he understood, to make solid constructs. These are the kinds of brilliant sci-fi stories that were swept aside to turn GL into another run of the mill action book. What a shame.

SpaceDog

11-21-2002, 05:31 PM

[quote]I know Dc wanted to let Kevin Smith write one of his favorite caracters (and the first 12 of those issues were pretty good), but this new book will probably be cancelled before the end of 2003. <hr></blockquote>

Bet you cash money it won't. Meltzer's run has been great so far, and Winick is going to heat that book up even further. I expect sales to increase, not decrease.

northern soul daz

11-21-2002, 05:32 PM

Brian,

I am in total agreement with you.

Of all the characters to smash to pieces, why did DC pick on Hal Jordan ?
Would they have done it to Bruce Wayne or Wonder Woman ?
I doubt it very much.

To make matters worse, DC tried to make up for the mistake they knew they had made by getting Hal to make one last noble sacrifice....and then bring him back as a good guy by making him the new Spectre.
Give me a break !

Once they had made the (bad) decision to turn Hal into a bad guy, they should have stuck with the idea and used him as a great guilt ridden villain.
They couldn't even get that right !

If the people at DC had actually thought about what the consequences would be for the GL universe, they would never have gone through with it.
IMHO messing with Hal was seen as a big money earner, and that is all.
No care was given about the future.

How would I bring back Hal ?

I'd turn Kyle Rayner into a murdering madman (like Hal was).
Just before the JLA beat his brains out, I'd have Rayner beg for forgivness, and as a last act of redemption......will Hal back to life with his GL ring.

And I'd get Guy Gardner back as a GL....and Gnort.
Both much better characters than Kyle.

drgoodhead

11-21-2002, 05:35 PM

"Of course, DeMatteis faced a daunting challenge when taking the reins of the Spectre: Green Lantern fans wanted Hal Jordan fans as GL and Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan. "I think one of the problems we faced was that the Hal Jordan fans wanted their old Green Lantern back," DeMatteis said. "The Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan stories...so we were constantly walking an edge - and occasionally falling off it - between those two camps. There was also the fact that Hal was previously a super-hero...and The Spectre is not, nor was it ever, a super-hero book. So I think many people had their expectations confounded. I also think there were certain people that so objected to the Hal-Spectre fusion that nothing we could do would please them."

"That said, and given the parameters of the series, I was generally allowed to write the stories I wanted to. Yes, I occasionally threw in elements to please those old school diehards - the recent Sinestro storyline was certainly meant for them - but I could never betray my basic vision of the character. Bottom line: I got to tell some stories I was proud of and make some, I hope, worthwhile statements about Life, the Universe, and Everything. Not a bad gig! Instead of focusing on why were cancelled, I choose to celebrate the fact that, in the current market, we hung around for more than two years."

I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!!!! i had to register to voice my displeasure with the above statement by JMD. the guy is basically ADMITTING that they messed up, that they were not writing to suit EITHER audience, but they still did it because they could??!!?? waste 2 whole years and then blame it on the market??!!

dc really has a lot of money to waste.i hope JMD is happy now that his mortgage is paid off.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 05:46 PM

[quote]Originally posted by northern soul daz:
Brian,

I am in total agreement with you.

Of all the characters to smash to pieces, why did DC pick on Hal Jordan ?
Would they have done it to Bruce Wayne or Wonder Woman ?
I doubt it very much.

To make matters worse, DC tried to make up for the mistake they knew they had made by getting Hal to make one last noble sacrifice....and then bring him back as a good guy by making him the new Spectre.
Give me a break !

Once they had made the (bad) decision to turn Hal into a bad guy, they should have stuck with the idea and used him as a great guilt ridden villain.
They couldn't even get that right !

If the people at DC had actually thought about what the consequences would be for the GL universe, they would never have gone through with it.
IMHO messing with Hal was seen as a big money earner, and that is all.
No care was given about the future.

How would I bring back Hal ?

I'd turn Kyle Rayner into a murdering madman (like Hal was).
Just before the JLA beat his brains out, I'd have Rayner beg for forgivness, and as a last act of redemption......will Hal back to life with his GL ring.

And I'd get Guy Gardner back as a GL....and Gnort.
Both much better characters than Kyle.<hr></blockquote>

I appreciate the support. The sad truth is that DC would no doubt make a fortune if they brought HAL back. With someone like Kurt Busiek at the helm, they would no doubt have an extreme increase in sales. Hopefully proects like Secret Origins and Liberty and Justice will help them see the light.

Oh, and G'NORT RULES! "A Guy and his G'nort" is one of my all time favorites. In all the furor over HAL, we sometimes forget that there were so many other characters who were ruined in that story. I hope to see them again.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 05:48 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SpaceDog:


You really ought to read or watch Misery.<hr></blockquote>

That is REALLY funny.

Rob

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 05:51 PM

[quote]Originally posted by drgoodhead:
"Of course, DeMatteis faced a daunting challenge when taking the reins of the Spectre: Green Lantern fans wanted Hal Jordan fans as GL and Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan. "I think one of the problems we faced was that the Hal Jordan fans wanted their old Green Lantern back," DeMatteis said. "The Spectre fans didn't want Hal Jordan stories...so we were constantly walking an edge - and occasionally falling off it - between those two camps. There was also the fact that Hal was previously a super-hero...and The Spectre is not, nor was it ever, a super-hero book. So I think many people had their expectations confounded. I also think there were certain people that so objected to the Hal-Spectre fusion that nothing we could do would please them."

"That said, and given the parameters of the series, I was generally allowed to write the stories I wanted to. Yes, I occasionally threw in elements to please those old school diehards - the recent Sinestro storyline was certainly meant for them - but I could never betray my basic vision of the character. Bottom line: I got to tell some stories I was proud of and make some, I hope, worthwhile statements about Life, the Universe, and Everything. Not a bad gig! Instead of focusing on why were cancelled, I choose to celebrate the fact that, in the current market, we hung around for more than two years."

I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!!!! i had to register to voice my displeasure with the above statement by JMD. the guy is basically ADMITTING that they messed up, that they were not writing to suit EITHER audience, but they still did it because they could??!!?? waste 2 whole years and then blame it on the market??!!

dc really has a lot of money to waste.i hope JMD is happy now that his mortgage is paid off.<hr></blockquote>

DC published because they could. J.M. DeMatteis wrote it because he could not do otherwise. It was an assignment. For enough money I'd write Kyle Rayner as a morphing chicken man. And Wonder Woman would be the farmer's wife slash love interest while Jade is plucked, beheaded, and cooked for dinner.

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 05:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by drgoodhead:


I CAN'T FREAKING BELIEVE IT!!!! i had to register to voice my displeasure with the above statement by JMD. the guy is basically ADMITTING that they messed up, that they were not writing to suit EITHER audience, but they still did it because they could??!!?? waste 2 whole years and then blame it on the market??!!

dc really has a lot of money to waste.i hope JMD is happy now that his mortgage is paid off.<hr></blockquote>

DC published because they could. J.M. DeMatteis wrote it because he could not do otherwise. It was an assignment. For enough money I'd write Kyle Rayner as a morphing chicken man. And Wonder Woman would be the farmer's wife slash love interest while Jade is plucked, beheaded, and cooked for dinner.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 06:00 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


I care a great deal about the heroes who set an example for me and the rest of the world. They used to stand for something. What lessons does Kyle Rayner teach us? If you get super powers, you can sleep with super heroines? That's the only message I ever got out of it.

<hr></blockquote>

Then you're not a very careful reader. The Kyle GL character is all about growing into your responsibilities -- an important lesson, I'd say.
Sleeping with superheroines may stick in your craw, but it's not what the comic is about.

There ARE lessons in the GL comic, but you don't want to find them.

Rob

(As for Hal as the Spectre, I always thought it was a clever idea, but not really my cuppa tea. The few stories I read only reinforced my opinion.)

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:11 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


. For enough money I'd write Kyle Rayner as a morphing chicken man. And Wonder Woman would be the farmer's wife slash love interest while Jade is plucked, beheaded, and cooked for dinner.<hr></blockquote>

This is what's wrong with the industry. Too many writers make it all about the money. What happened to the integrity? What happened to the love? That's just sad.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:
[QB]

Then you're not a very careful reader. The Kyle GL character is all about growing into your responsibilities -- an important lesson, I'd say.
Sleeping with superheroines may stick in your craw, but it's not what the comic is about.

There ARE lessons in the GL comic, but you don't want to find them.

[QB]<hr></blockquote>

It sure is taking him a HELL OF A LONG TIME to grow into any responsibility. He's still the arrogant, selfish, jerk Ron Marz created him to be (he admitted this), and has had no character growth at all. The first thing he did with the ring was use it to get back with his old girlfriend. Personally, I wish they'd keep the bedroom scenes out of comics. Anyway, I don't think a new costume counts as growth. They have never tried to make Kyle anything but a screw up. Ron Marz said that you weren't supposed to like him or be like him. That's what annoys me the most.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 06:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


It sure is taking him a HELL OF A LONG TIME to grow into any responsibility. He's still the arrogant, selfish, jerk Ron Marz created him to be (he admitted this), and has had no character growth at all. The first thing he did with the ring was use it to get back with his old girlfriend. Personally, I wish they'd keep the bedroom scenes out of comics. Anyway, I don't think a new costume counts as growth. They have never tried to make Kyle anything but a screw up. Ron Marz said that you weren't supposed to like him or be like him. That's what annoys me the most.<hr></blockquote>

You're not supporting your argument about lack of character growth. The first thing he did when he got the ring is hardly evidence -- the growth has to come after that. And you simply saying he's an arrogant, selfish, jerk doesn't make it true. Even Ron Marz saying it doesn't make it true. the evidence has to be in the stories.

I don't agree that he is -- at the the conclusion of the Ion story, he sure seemed like a responsible, well-adjusted guy. And the current storyline (where he's left Earth) is about coming to grips with the things he *can't* do, and is not responsible for. Another good lesson, IMO.

But I only read it periodically. You might know some more recent incidents where Kyle's behaved irresponsibly. Either way, it's not worth getting worked up over.

Rob

Hdefined

11-21-2002, 06:40 PM

"HAL Only did it beacuse the writers MADE him do it. My point is, it made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. HAL was a hero because of his iron will, stronger than that of ANY other hero out there. Him having a nervous breakdown was completely out of character for him. He's seen entire planets get wiped out before, and he's supposed to break down and cry over one city? None of his loved ones were even there at the time! And the way the Guardians reacted to his grief was toatlly off base. "Can't use your ring for personal things." Yeah, you're not supposed to, but he did it all the time and they never said squat. If Ron Marz had acctually bother to ever read Green Lantern books, he would have known that.
It is in fact tha logical thing to assuem he didn't do it. It only makes sense.
It could easily be an evil twin, clone, robotic doppelganger, mind control, etc. So many opportunities are out there. HAL must return.
P.S. Hal Did NOT do it! And I will never believe that he did. "

oh
my
god

. . .

it always breaks my heart when I read about people who have these kinds of delusions involving things of fantasy. Plus, this argument has gone on for almost 10 years, and it's time for some people to GET OVER IT.

Hal Jordan was a LAME, BORING, UNBEATABLE, UNLOVABLE hero before they made him nuts. It was only after the fact, when writers started doing flashback books like JLA Year One and such, that he started to become interesting. I would know, I read the bulk of GL Vol.2 #1-#47. It was, I don't know, HORRIBLE. #48-#50 may not have been the slickest, most well-written story ever, but it was damn interesting. I'd much rather have interesting "hero goes nuts" stories than boring "hero always wins" stories.

Writers made him a hero. Writers (not just one) made him a villain. It's all the same. He's NOT REAL. Deep breath, say it with me: NOT REAL. Batman used to smile a lot. Spider-man was a clone. Superman had a mullet. The Thing was replaced by a female Thing. IT HAPPENS. IT HAPPENED. It's history, and it's in the past.

You know what? If your favorite hero gets killed off because readers, writers, and editors all think they're boring as hell, it might be time for you to wake up and move on and just stop reading the damn book. I loved Deadpool. They made him a sissyboy named Alex with a big X on his face. I stopped reading, and I didn't complain. I liked Deadpool, the rest of the world didn't. End of story

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:


You're not supporting your argument about lack of character growth. The first thing he did when he got the ring is hardly evidence -- the growth has to come after that. And you simply saying he's an arrogant, selfish, jerk doesn't make it true. Even Ron Marz saying it doesn't make it true. the evidence has to be in the stories.

I don't agree that he is -- at the the conclusion of the Ion story, he sure seemed like a responsible, well-adjusted guy. And the current storyline (where he's left Earth) is about coming to grips with the things he *can't* do, and is not responsible for. Another good lesson, IMO.

But I only read it periodically. You might know some more recent incidents where Kyle's behaved irresponsibly. Either way, it's not worth getting worked up over.

Rob<hr></blockquote>

Well, I stopped reading a long time ago, but I never saw any indication of things getting better. He never bothered to learn anything about the history of the ring, what it could do. He never bothered to train, or practice. He never bothered to check on planets outside of his own. I often wonder how many people have died because a Green Lantern wasn't there to help them. He soes not respect his power or the role he has been cast in (or stolen, from my point of view).

Of course, most of what I hate about Kyle I also see in most other super heroes these days. They don't practice at their trade. They are superheroes. They are supposed to be better than regular people. They have to be when everything's on the line. When was the last time the JLA trained together (and Batman beating up on them every once in a while doesn't count)?

Superheores need to be icons, and Kyle Rayner is not an icon. HAL was an icon. He represented something noble and storng. That's what I miss about comics, and when you love comics as I do, then getting all worked up over it can't be helped. I don't have a choice in what I do. I care more about this than most of you will ever understand, and, someday, I will see it set right.

Brian Langlois

11-21-2002, 06:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:

oh
my
god

. . .

it always breaks my heart when I read about people who have these kinds of delusions involving things of fantasy. Plus, this argument has gone on for almost 10 years, and it's time for some people to GET OVER IT.

Hal Jordan was a LAME, BORING, UNBEATABLE, UNLOVABLE hero before they made him nuts. It was only after the fact, when writers started doing flashback books like JLA Year One and such, that he started to become interesting. I would know, I read the bulk of GL Vol.2 #1-#47. It was, I don't know, HORRIBLE. #48-#50 may not have been the slickest, most well-written story ever, but it was damn interesting. I'd much rather have interesting "hero goes nuts" stories than boring "hero always wins" stories.

Writers made him a hero. Writers (not just one) made him a villain. It's all the same. He's NOT REAL. Deep breath, say it with me: NOT REAL. Batman used to smile a lot. Spider-man was a clone. Superman had a mullet. The Thing was replaced by a female Thing. IT HAPPENS. IT HAPPENED. It's history, and it's in the past.

You know what? If your favorite hero gets killed off because readers, writers, and editors all think they're boring as hell, it might be time for you to wake up and move on and just stop reading the damn book. I loved Deadpool. They made him a sissyboy named Alex with a big X on his face. I stopped reading, and I didn't complain. I liked Deadpool, the rest of the world didn't. End of story<hr></blockquote>

I have stated before that I know it is fiction. That does not mean that it can't touch our lives in a meaningful way. Have you everey loved anything, and had it ripped away from you? that's how a feel, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You may have htought HAL was boring. But there are many people who did, and they did not deserve what happened. GL Vol. 2, 1-48 are hardly the standard by which to judge HAL, though I liked them (and I'm sure Gerard Jones appreciates your respect). The real definitive material comes before that - the Silver Age stuff. That is what I'll always love.

And I did stop reading the book, but I didn't stop caring. I want to be able to read and enjoy Green Lantern every month, but thanks to some short sighted editors, I can't do that. Do you think what happened to Deadpool was fair to the fans who supported the book all that time. I sure as hell don't, and I'd be mad as hell. Fight for your book. Everyone needs a cause. Maybe one day, Kyle will get one too.

aphterburn

11-21-2002, 07:00 PM

Pathetic.

That's really the only word I can use to describe some of these silly Hal-hangers-on. Pathetic. First, I will adress the peoplel that say the story made no sense. Bullshit. It made perfect sense. "Hal had an iron will, blah, blah." That cookie-cutter, stone-jawed hero crap is exactly why he went insane. (And why the writers did it in the first place, but I'll get to that). He was so damn occupied with being a noble, perfect, honorable hero that when he couldn't even save his OWN city, he snapped. End of story.

Secondly, this whole "the writers made him do it is nonsense". Of course the writers made him do it. The writers have made him do everything he ever did. Hal became 1,000 times more interesting AFTER Emerald Twilight than he EVER was before. Do you know why?

I'll tell you why. This brings me back to the writers....AND the bottom line. Hal Jordan, quite frankly, in all due respect was BORING. Mr. I'm A Great And Noble Green Lantern was lame, and people got sick of it. Go ahead DC, cave in to these hangers-on. You'll see an initial sales spike and then a sharp decrease in interest in this guy. Three things and three things only have happened in Hal's entire existence that have been interesting....the side of his hair turning grey, him going nuts, and him becoming the Spectre.

I'm sick of this crap that everyone shovels on Kyle Rayner. Kyle Rayner's first year as Green Lantern was more interesting than the prior thirty years. Know why? Because Kyle is a human being with human friends and human problems. He has gay friends (do you think Hal would), he asks for help when he's in over his head (which a normal person would do), and he reacts like a guy off the street would react, given his situation. That's why GL sells now. Because the MAJORITY of people want a hero they can relate to, not one who stand above them all the time (we have Superman for that).

Don't EVER tell me that Kyle is a coward. Kyle was out minding his own business and got handed a ring by a blue alien. Since then he's saved the world over and over (naturally) and gained even MORE power than Hal STOLE and gave it up on purpose.

If you guys loved Hal so much, you should've bought his book as it lay in the gutter. Then maybe, they would've stuck with the boring hero you all adore so much. Instead they chose SALES. You know....money, dinero. They weren't picking on Hal. Hell, they tried to appease you by redeeming him 12 times, and even making him the Spectre, but that wasn't good enough.

It's been 10 years. Stop bitching. Stop whining. Then again....bitch and whine all you want.

TTROY

11-21-2002, 07:19 PM

I have to agree....Pathetic... this is so sad.
Hal is dead get over it.
Hal is the spetre deal with it......and please get a life and stop taking these things so seriously.....god damn.

The Blue Spider

11-21-2002, 08:53 PM

Hal isn't dead any more than he was ever alive.

Emerald Twilight was a poorly-written story which took a sensible, sane space cop super hero character and rewrote him as a man so unstable than when his former home was destroyed, and his brother killed, along with several hundread acquaintances and millions of strangers also killed he flew off and murdered his closest friends and surrogate family.

Let me say write this again. He killed those he loved the most because a large number of people he hardly knew in a city he did not live in anymore all got destroyed in a ball of flame. And his brother died.

Then for a replacement we get a cypher of a character named Kyle Rayner. He was either a rebel and a jerk... or someone with a noble soul. He was either destined to be a great Green Lantern because he knew fear (Grant Morrison) or he was just he everyman with a ring. Maybe he was both. Ron Marz said that Kyle was the only GL because the character itself was too weak to stand if other characters with similar powers were being published simultaneously by the same company. No one ever said that about Batman or the Flash.

Kyle was an artist who could not operate the ring without imagining a construct with which to work through. He want to pick something up he needed hands or a glove or a detailed metal pinchers or a giant robot or something. That was according to Ron Marz and Grant Morrison. He was also this hesitant little dweeb that we the readers used as a surroage to see the iconic JLA.

Under his newest writer, Judd Winnick, the character can manage telekinesis, language translation, and other feats of competency with the ring than he ever could before.

Either he's evolved, been rewritten by godhood, or Kyle Rayner is a cypher.

Hal Jordan sold for as long as he did because he could sell. When sales lagged there was a rotation. They added plot devices (Green Arrow), banned him from earth, created a substitute (John Stewart) and assmebled the Corps on Earth and other things each time sales have lagged.
Sometimes it worked.

Every time Hal was brought back.

Hal Jordan has a certain characterization and he was written out of it. Generally this is what people mean when they say that the writer forced him to do it. It means that it feels unnatural. It means that it wasn't the writer thinking about how the character would work so much as it was the writer thinking about what he could make the character do.

Hal was going to be replaced anyway. But it was editorial fiat and Ron Marz that had him and the Corps killed and thus using the "no resurrections in comics" and the "let death be death in comics" groups of comics fans as a veritable reader army to block any returns.

Quite frankly the evil twin idea is the best way to bring Hal back only because there really is no way to redeem on earth such heinous crimes; Parallax killed billions. It's also the easiest way because otherwise there'd have to be a weak story to explain why Hal was acting so out of character.

One could say Hal was boring. Then so is Superman and Batman.

One could say I am pathetic. One could get punched in the teeth if one was saying it to my face.

One in fact could get a whole bunch of people together in a room and tell them that they were all pathetic one by one and wait to see what would happen.

One could call people pathetic on the internet where it's nice and safe and your anonymity and distance could protect you from the web-surfers he's insulted.

Or one could simply apologize before he is publicly declared an ass by a poster like myself, but not myself, who opts for cowardice and would stay anonymous.

Taylor Porter

11-21-2002, 08:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
That title wasn't about one guy for forty years. It was about 3600 guys. The Green Lantern Corps.<hr></blockquote>

That may be true, but Hal was still the main star of the book for decades. Most of the other GLs were aliens, which kind of detaches me from the wish-fulfillment thing I was talking about (Kyle's neat, because you think "that could've been me!", not something you think about when you see Tomar-Re). Even counting John, Guy, Alan and whoever else, there were less than a dozen human GLs. I still think that is kind of a limited way of depicting the idea of a Green Lantern. I would like to see more "real people"-type characters get a GL ring, if even only for a while.

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
When was the last time the JLA trained together (and Batman beating up on them every once in a while doesn't count)?<hr></blockquote>

A little off topic, but the JLA doesn't need to train. They're the world's greatest heroes! If the heroes weren't already the best, they wouldn't be on the team. Besides, I've gotten a little sick of seeing teams training amongst themselves. It gets a little tiring and unnecessary after a while. If you've seen one Danger Room sequence, you've seen 'em all.

Danilo Raul

11-21-2002, 08:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


Excuse me? Just because I prefer classic comics and characters doesn't make me some kind of woman bashing sexist. You insult me. There is a difference in PROGRESS and what DC has done to the legacy of its classic characters. I am not against change, but I despise change for change's sake. <hr></blockquote>

Screw legacy. i mean Hal wasn't all that great, the only decent comics i've seen from him are the o'neal/adams Green Lantern and Green Arrow, the Waid penned stories about him with Barry kitson in "JLA year 1" and "Barry and Hal" and that's about it, plus you are just beating a horse that is so dead that it stinks.

Hal wiped out everything, he did it,read Green Lantern #50 (a great read by the way!) he's a fictional comic book character who belongs to a souless corporation who cares shit about you and those geeks at HEAT or whatever they are called these days. Kyle has done such a nice job being Green Lantern that you forget about this. i did, i just sit back and enjoy his specter stories all the way.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 09:04 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hdefined:

Hal Jordan was a LAME, BORING, UNBEATABLE, UNLOVABLE hero before they made him nuts. It was only after the fact, when writers started doing flashback books like JLA Year One and such, that he started to become interesting. I would know, I read the bulk of GL Vol.2 #1-#47. It was, I don't know, HORRIBLE. #48-#50 may not have been the slickest, most well-written story ever, but it was damn interesting. I'd much rather have interesting "hero goes nuts" stories than boring "hero always wins" stories.

<hr></blockquote>

You put your finger on something interesting there. Hal used to be a much bmore interesting character than he was when it was decided he should go nuts (a bad decision, I believe). But I belive you're right about GL Vol.2 #1-#47. I don't know if it was horrible, but it was certainly lackluster. (I stopped reading around issue 20, but it didn't seem like it was getting any better.) And the person to blame for that isn't Hal, no more than Kyle isn't to blame for his book being not to a lot of fan's tastes. Nope, the fault should lie with Gerard Jones.

Ron Marz didn't make the decision -- he just wrote the story his editors asked for.

The editor (Dooley and whoever else had a hand in it) aren't completely to blame, either -- sales were probably low and they had to do something to get them higher. And while I'd argue they could have thought of something better, it was the 90s, and flawed heroes were sure-fire sellers, then.

But Gerard Jones -- he drove Hal into the ground with one dull story after another, so that driving him nuts and killing him was an option.

Dooley ordered the hit and Marz fired the gun, but Jones dug the grave and dared them to fill it.

Rob

Taylor Porter

11-21-2002, 09:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:

Ron Marz said that Kyle was the only GL because the character itself was too weak to stand if other characters with similar powers were being published simultaneously by the same company. No one ever said that about Batman or the Flash.
<hr></blockquote>

Not at DC, maybe, but I'll certainly say it. Green Lantern, Flash and Batman have all turned me off because of the large groups of characters in their respective titles that are similarly powered.

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
One could say Hal was boring. Then so is Superman and Batman.
<hr></blockquote>

Now you're catching on. These characters ARE boring.

COREMARK

11-21-2002, 09:13 PM

The last time I truly enjoyed a Hal as Green Lantern story was the "Emerald Dawn" miniseries. I think the past 2 years of Green Lantern written by Winick and starring the most hated man in the DCU (Kyle) has been great. I think if some of you guys actually read the new stuff and gave Kyle a chance you would appreciate him as a hero a lot more.

aphterburn

11-21-2002, 09:43 PM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:
Hal isn't dead any more than he was ever alive.

Emerald Twilight was a poorly-written story which took a sensible, sane space cop super hero character and rewrote him as a man so unstable than when his former home was destroyed, and his brother killed, along with several hundread acquaintances and millions of strangers also killed he flew off and murdered his closest friends and surrogate family.

Let me say write this again. He killed those he loved the most because a large number of people he hardly knew in a city he did not live in anymore all got destroyed in a ball of flame. And his brother died.

Then for a replacement we get a cypher of a character named Kyle Rayner. He was either a rebel and a jerk... or someone with a noble soul. He was either destined to be a great Green Lantern because he knew fear (Grant Morrison) or he was just he everyman with a ring. Maybe he was both. Ron Marz said that Kyle was the only GL because the character itself was too weak to stand if other characters with similar powers were being published simultaneously by the same company. No one ever said that about Batman or the Flash.

Kyle was an artist who could not operate the ring without imagining a construct with which to work through. He want to pick something up he needed hands or a glove or a detailed metal pinchers or a giant robot or something. That was according to Ron Marz and Grant Morrison. He was also this hesitant little dweeb that we the readers used as a surroage to see the iconic JLA.

Under his newest writer, Judd Winnick, the character can manage telekinesis, language translation, and other feats of competency with the ring than he ever could before.

Either he's evolved, been rewritten by godhood, or Kyle Rayner is a cypher.

Hal Jordan sold for as long as he did because he could sell. When sales lagged there was a rotation. They added plot devices (Green Arrow), banned him from earth, created a substitute (John Stewart) and assmebled the Corps on Earth and other things each time sales have lagged.
Sometimes it worked.

Every time Hal was brought back.

Hal Jordan has a certain characterization and he was written out of it. Generally this is what people mean when they say that the writer forced him to do it. It means that it feels unnatural. It means that it wasn't the writer thinking about how the character would work so much as it was the writer thinking about what he could make the character do.

Hal was going to be replaced anyway. But it was editorial fiat and Ron Marz that had him and the Corps killed and thus using the "no resurrections in comics" and the "let death be death in comics" groups of comics fans as a veritable reader army to block any returns.

Quite frankly the evil twin idea is the best way to bring Hal back only because there really is no way to redeem on earth such heinous crimes; Parallax killed billions. It's also the easiest way because otherwise there'd have to be a weak story to explain why Hal was acting so out of character.

One could say Hal was boring. Then so is Superman and Batman.

One could say I am pathetic. One could get punched in the teeth if one was saying it to my face.

One in fact could get a whole bunch of people together in a room and tell them that they were all pathetic one by one and wait to see what would happen.

One could call people pathetic on the internet where it's nice and safe and your anonymity and distance could protect you from the web-surfers he's insulted.

Or one could simply apologize before he is publicly declared an ass by a poster like myself, but not myself, who opts for cowardice and would stay anonymous.<hr></blockquote>

It eases your boyscout Hal Jordan loving mind to think that Emerald Twilight was just a poorly written story and a disservice to a fictional character. Nah. The truth is, is was a progression, and a logical one at that. It is completely illogical for Hal Jordan, square jawed hero to all to go insane? Newsflash buddy, people go insane all the time for lesser reasons than being unable to save millions of people, much less NOT being able to save millions of people. You just don't like to have your precious hero knocked off his ficticious pedestal.

Is Batman boring? NO. Batman is more complex that any comic book Superhero in existence. Is Superman boring? He can be, but in the hands of the right person, no, he is not. Superman is SUPPOSED to be a boyscout....the biggest one there is, and stories are crafted around that. He's not a third tier quasi-hero.

And, am I supposed to be scared now? I suppose one could call you pathetic. Am I supposed to be afraid that you're gonna hunt me down and and punch me and/or decare me an ass? After that diatribe, I will state my opinion on you. You ARE pathetic. I'd say it to your face if you were standing in front of me. Gimme your phone number and I'll call you up and tell you.

I hope DC never brings Hal back as Green Lantern. Meanwhile, I hope his little soldiers keep fighting the good cause so i can laugh at you while I go read Green Lantern. I mean the REAL Green Lantern.

Rob Staeger

11-21-2002, 09:50 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


Well, I stopped reading a long time ago, but I never saw any indication of things getting better. He never bothered to learn anything about the history of the ring, what it could do. He never bothered to train, or practice. He never bothered to check on planets outside of his own. I often wonder how many people have died because a Green Lantern wasn't there to help them. He soes not respect his power or the role he has been cast in (or stolen, from my point of view). <hr></blockquote>

I didn't read his initial issues, so I don't know: was he told he should be checking out other planets and patroling the sector (or heck, since he was the only GL, the whole universe)? What sort of background was he told when he was given the ring? I'm not sure if Kyle is the one to blame for this (even discounting that it's a fictional universe). Shouldn't it lie on Ganthet's head for not briefing him? (Like I said, i'm just assuming.)

Also, Hal Jordan spent a whole lot of time on Earth, too, when he had a whole sector to guard. So much that the Guardians spanked him for it once or twice.

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Superheores need to be icons, and Kyle Rayner is not an icon. HAL was an icon. He represented something noble and storng. That's what I miss about comics, and when you love comics as I do, then getting all worked up over it can't be helped. I don't have a choice in what I do. I care more about this than most of you will ever understand, and, someday, I will see it set right.<hr></blockquote>

Heck, I love comics. Probably in a completely different way than you, but they're one of my favorite things in the world. And I agree with you on a number of points:

1) Hal got a raw deal, and should never have gone nuts like that.

2) Hal is not a boring character. (He did, however, have the misfortune of being in a lot of boring stories late in the game.)

But Hal's completely out-of-character turnaround has resulted in some interesting stories and situations for the DCU. The fallen hero is an fascinating archetype to play with, and I'm glad there's one around to read stories about. I wish it wasn't Hal, but at least they're making lemonade out of lemons. (Although they're doing it by hand, since the ring won't work on lemons.)

Rob

howler

11-21-2002, 09:58 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
[QB]If DC really cared about Hal Jordan, they wouldn't bother with redeeming him, but rather EXHONORATING him of all wrong doing. It wasn't Hal. It could never have been Hal. Anything less is unacceptable.

I agree and there is an out for dc on this one.while at this moment i don't really want to dig through my issues of Action Comics when it was a weekly... Hal Jordan as Green Lantern was featured in that book.... In a story arc I think written by Peter David we might have a plausable explanation of why it couldn't be,never could have been Hal..go look it up.....

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 12:24 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:


It eases your boyscout Hal Jordan loving mind to think that Emerald Twilight was just a poorly written story and a disservice to a fictional character. Nah. The truth is, is was a progression, and a logical one at that. It is completely illogical for Hal Jordan, square jawed hero to all to go insane? Newsflash buddy, people go insane all the time for lesser reasons than being unable to save millions of people, much less NOT being able to save millions of people. You just don't like to have your precious hero knocked off his ficticious pedestal.

Is Batman boring? NO. Batman is more complex that any comic book Superhero in existence. Is Superman boring? He can be, but in the hands of the right person, no, he is not. Superman is SUPPOSED to be a boyscout....the biggest one there is, and stories are crafted around that. He's not a third tier quasi-hero.

And, am I supposed to be scared now? I suppose one could call you pathetic. Am I supposed to be afraid that you're gonna hunt me down and and punch me and/or decare me an ass? After that diatribe, I will state my opinion on you. You ARE pathetic. I'd say it to your face if you were standing in front of me. Gimme your phone number and I'll call you up and tell you.

I hope DC never brings Hal back as Green Lantern. Meanwhile, I hope his little soldiers keep fighting the good cause so i can laugh at you while I go read Green Lantern. I mean the REAL Green Lantern.<hr></blockquote>

Geez-louise, what a load of unsupported hoo-ha.
"You are this. He is that. This is what. You love this character. Give me your phone number so I can pledge my undying love to you oh logical arachknight."

No way, man. I ain't fallin' for that trick. you want to date someone you go on with your own kind.

What some people will do for a guy's phone number, now that is pathetic!

------

Unsupported arguments are generally the most unworthy to argue against.

Which basically means that I have no counterargument to "you'll hunt me down" other than I won't. I also have no counterargument to "he's the most complex hero ever" or "he's not boring because he is supposed to be a boy scout and stories are crafted around that."

Now I remember why I haven't gotten into an iternet flaming match since 1999. I'm not mean enough to be good at it.

Hdefined

11-22-2002, 12:41 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Staeger:


You put your finger on something interesting there. Hal used to be a much bmore interesting character than he was when it was decided he should go nuts (a bad decision, I believe). But I belive you're right about GL Vol.2 #1-#47. I don't know if it was horrible, but it was certainly lackluster. (I stopped reading around issue 20, but it didn't seem like it was getting any better.) And the person to blame for that isn't Hal, no more than Kyle isn't to blame for his book being not to a lot of fan's tastes. Nope, the fault should lie with Gerard Jones.

Ron Marz didn't make the decision -- he just wrote the story his editors asked for.

The editor (Dooley and whoever else had a hand in it) aren't completely to blame, either -- sales were probably low and they had to do something to get them higher. And while I'd argue they could have thought of something better, it was the 90s, and flawed heroes were sure-fire sellers, then.

But Gerard Jones -- he drove Hal into the ground with one dull story after another, so that driving him nuts and killing him was an option.

Dooley ordered the hit and Marz fired the gun, but Jones dug the grave and dared them to fill it.

Rob<hr></blockquote>

Yes, this is my point. I wasn't around to read all the silver age stuff. I'm sure it defined him as a great character, but TIMES CHANGE. Spiderman, for instance, got married, thus ending his "every man" relatability. Flash died too, but I don't see people whining about that one.

Anyway, I only starting picking up GL with Volume 2 because that was just my timing, and I personally thought it was lame. Maybe they COULD have done more interesting things with the character, but the point is that, with everyone involved, no one did anything interesting. No lightbulb. Lackluster sales. Red light.

So they did the typical 90's thing and took a complete left turn. Except, unlike Superman Blue, Spider-clone, and Bat-azreal, they didn't undo this one. That's fine, because I kind of like Kyle. I don't read GL right now, but I read it on and off for a good 60 issues.

People complain that Kyle isn't as heroic, doesn't train, is too reliant on the ring. The thing I like about Kyle is this: if he hadn't been given the ring, would he still have been a good, responsible person? Maybe the ring was a thrust of responsibility and morality on his shoulders, and forced him to reassert his values. Maybe he would have been trash if he hadn't gotten it. I like that. It's building a hero from the ground up. Hal was always "the chosen one", they knew from the start he was gonna be a great guy. But Kyle, it was a gamble. To me, that's a hero

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 12:43 AM

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 01:09 AM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


Actually Jones wanted to set aside Hal and create a less continuity-heavy GL for his own stories and so he can have freedom to tell stories. But for 47 odd issues editorial limited his freedom. Kevin Dooley pretty much smooshed 'im. Then when Jones wrote up his storyline to set aside Hal and get his own GL he was pushed aside so Hal could permanently gone, along with the Corps.

Well, don't believe me. Believe
<a href="http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing39/iview.shtml" target="_blank">Gerard Jones.</a> <---- click that stinking link to an interview!<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the link, Spider. The ideas he expresses in the interview sound really interesting; I wish he had a chance to follow through on more of them. (And it's interesting that he might have been replacing Hal, too.)

Did Jones write GL: Mosaic? That's the only GL series from around that time that I still recall fondly. It was definitely too hip for the room.

Rob

aphterburn

11-22-2002, 02:12 AM

John Osen

11-22-2002, 02:38 AM

I think that in a straight-out combat, Cap would win at least 9 of 10 times.
He is at least as fast as Batman, if not faster, and is quite a bit
stronger. In addition, due to the Super Soldier Serum, he does not suffer
the effects of fatigue, and he is more resistant to injury than a normal
human being. Then there is his shield. Cap is as skilled with that
wonderful offensive/defensive weapon as anyone in any comics universe is
with their weaponry. Despite being trained in a wider range of martial arts
techniques, Batman really doesn't stand a chance in straight combat with Cap
- Cap has all the edges. :eek: batman is scared!

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:06 AM

I don't really know about Cap vs Bats.

We're talking ten different matches and all.

You list Cap's skills and abilities awfully well. If Captain America and Batman were fighting without their respective weapons and armor I do believe that Captain America would take the win in 6 out of 10 falls.

If the warriors had their armor and weapons, however, Batman would more likely win in 7 out of 10 matches. His skills are superior, his experience equevelent, and his physical capabilies are slightly less than Cap. He also has long range weaponry that can remove nearly all of Cap's senses and has several weapons that can't effectively be blocked by the shield.

Basically we can take some of the Star-Spangled Avenger's most capable human foes and amp them up to get Batman.

Of course, neither character could win easily.

But is the Spectre judging this match?

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:10 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:


For the record, I never threatened to punch anyone.<hr></blockquote>

If you really look at my words, neither did I.

shakey

11-22-2002, 03:20 AM

Why is it cool to have a bunch of new retro stories of Hal as GL, but NEVER any new Jim Corrigan Spectre stories?

I vote for a Vertigo JC/Spectre mini series with Jim Aparo doing the art (covers at least) like he did in Adventure Comics in the 70's (are my wrinkles showing?)

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:38 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
[QB]

Here's how I support my argument. Superman is still Kal-El from Krypton. Batman is still Bruce Wayne. Green Lantern is Kyle Rayner, not Hal Jordan. What else do I need to support my side?

QB]<hr></blockquote>

Proof that Hal Jordan wasn't Green Lantern for over 40 years in the comics. Evidence that I can't find more Hal Jordans than Kyle Rayners in back issues boxes.

Heck, if I turn on the TV John Stewart is Green Lantern, not Kyle Rayner. Hal Jordan was Green Lantern for multiple television seasons on his own program and on the various incarnations of the Super Friends.

Kyle Rayner was in one episode of Superman and was drawn to look an awful lot like Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan was even mentioned in the episode in the background.

Looking at DC Direct figures one can find Kyle Rayner. But one can also find Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, Tomar Re as Green Lantern, and Kilowog as Green Lantern.

The trade paperback Green Lantern: Traitor, has three Green Lanterns on the cover.

Green Lantern: Fear Itself had five Green Lanterns in it. It had three chapters, each being portrayed as the present day of the time.

Who or what is Green Lantern? There is no one answer. But those who've watched a lot of TV won't say Kyle Rayner. Those who started reading GL since issue 50 should say Kyle Rayner and those who have been reading for quite a bit longer might just say Hal Jordan. And why would they say that? Is it because they've gotten into screaming matches and the practice of writing death threats in order to get their hero back? No. They just have not read enough Kyle Rayner comics to change their minds.

Heck, I'm just waiting for Hal Jordan to come back as GL not so much because that's my preference but because I believe him to be more commerically viable than Kyle Rayner. Why? There's more Hal Jordan crap out there than Kyle. I am writing to anyone telling them to agree with me or in a call to force DC's hand, but regardless of how they do it or the quality of the story they do it in I believe DC will believe that Hal's return would mean sales.

That, and quite frankly Kyle's wearing an ugly costume. It really is... busy and dark. And it is just a smidge better than his crab-faced armored-gauntlet costume he first wore.

As for Batman... Bruce Wayne is not always Bruce Wayne. Sometiems he's grim and sometimes he hates teamwork. Does he work alone? Does he have a partner? Is he a team player? Is he a brooding loner? Is he grim all the time to everybody? Is Batman a mask or is Bruce Wayne a mask? Did he learn his lesson from the Knightfall saga? there was a moral to that story. Did he learn his lesson from No Man's Land? there was a moral to that story. Did he learn his lesson from Bruce Wayne : M/F? there was a moral to that story.

well. all the stories had the same morals: "No man is an island. We all need help now and then and we must learn to suck it up and not go it alone." Well, if he did learn the first time then there'd be no second times. So the world's greatest detective and a great genius can't learn this simple lesson and retain it until the next Batman title crossover....

Batman is a character that never changes and does not evolve even when events in a story prompt him to do so.

Superman is... naive? Stupid? a goofball? He is not a Boy Scout. A boy scout learns and collects knowledge and experience. This is a man who switched minds with Bizarro and was clueless about mind-switching, even though it wasn't the first time someone switched bodies with him. The current incarnation of Superman is someone only as intelligent as the story calls for.

He's also as competent, powerful, invulernable, and violent as the story calls for. No more no less. The death of a little girl will get a more severe reaction than the kidnapping and apparent sexual molestation of dozens of people and more in Metropolis.

I get bored with Superman because I don't always feel it's the same character in different situations. He's a different character in each situation and I can't care for each character equally every time.

As for pathetic... I never thought playing favorites when it came to reading things was pathetic.

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 03:40 AM

[quote]Originally posted by shakey:
Why is it cool to have a bunch of new retro stories of Hal as GL, but NEVER any new Jim Corrigan Spectre stories?

I vote for a Vertigo JC/Spectre mini series with Jim Aparo doing the art (covers at least) like he did in Adventure Comics in the 70's (are my wrinkles showing?)<hr></blockquote>

I second.

Jeremy Williams

11-22-2002, 04:08 AM

They should make Bucky the new FireLord, that`s what i think. :p

Seriously, replacing Hal Jordan by someone who`s not that different as a character but without the magic most not have come from someone with much creativity. Furthermore when you think about it for a second, would you make one of your beloved characters into a murderer? If not then that means the creators must not have been Green Lantern to begin with. And these guys wondered why there was heat ;) on them? Why do you think, Sherlock? :rolleyes:

I have to question JM Dematteis` motives to write the Spectre comic too. I would just want to see Frank Miller`s face if someone would ask him to write a Spectre story, with Hal Jordan. What the fck is that...!? :D Talk about deshonoring characters.

Jeremy Williams

11-22-2002, 04:20 AM

...by the way, after Coast City was destroyed, Hal Jordan appeared in the Superman books(Reign of Supermen) with a cast on his arm. And he was fine, not mad, crazy or whatever.

Something must have possessed him between those comics and the Green Lantern issues. lol

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 09:38 AM

Brian Langlois

11-22-2002, 10:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:


A little off topic, but the JLA doesn't need to train. They're the world's greatest heroes! If the heroes weren't already the best, they wouldn't be on the team. Besides, I've gotten a little sick of seeing teams training amongst themselves. It gets a little tiring and unnecessary after a while. If you've seen one Danger Room sequence, you've seen 'em all.<hr></blockquote>

EVERYONE can make themselves better. Batman trains every day. They need to at least learn how to work TOGETHER, even if they don't need practice with their own powers. My problem with the current JLA is that they sit up there in their ivory tower and wait for some alien to attack TEHM, and then fight back. Batman left the league over crap like this once. He said they had forgotten what it means to be heroes, and I can see that many fans have too.

Antisocial

11-22-2002, 10:59 AM

I loved the last Spectre series. Even though I thought Hal's insanity was handled poorly, I thought his redemption in Final Night and resurrection as the Spectre was clever. But the recent Spectre series was awful. JMD got the Spectre too involved with all that new-age mumbo jumbo. Frankly, JMD's obsession with new-age ideas has gotten out of control. Does anyone remember the Indian spirit guide he tried to introduce in Superman? Ugh!

DC was too quick to cancel the new Spectre series. What they should've done was hire John Ostrander back as the writer. He did a fill in issue for the current series and it was actually good.

I won't be picking up JLA/Spectre because 1) It's the expensive Prestige Format. 2) It's written by JMD.

Brian Langlois

11-22-2002, 11:05 AM

[quote]Originally posted by The Blue Spider:


Geez-louise, what a load of unsupported hoo-ha.
"You are this. He is that. This is what. You love this character. Give me your phone number so I can pledge my undying love to you oh logical arachknight."

No way, man. I ain't fallin' for that trick. you want to date someone you go on with your own kind.

What some people will do for a guy's phone number, now that is pathetic!

------

Unsupported arguments are generally the most unworthy to argue against.

Which basically means that I have no counterargument to "you'll hunt me down" other than I won't. I also have no counterargument to "he's the most complex hero ever" or "he's not boring because he is supposed to be a boy scout and stories are crafted around that."

Now I remember why I haven't gotten into an iternet flaming match since 1999. I'm not mean enough to be good at it.

<hr></blockquote>

Well, good at it or not, I appreciate the support here. You guys leapt to the defense of this old H.E.A.T. member even though he sounds like a raving lunatic. It’s not lunacy, its passion. I will fervently defend my beliefs no matter what they are, and sometimes I need all the help I can get. I think what has hurt the industry so much is people’s lack of passion. The writers, the editors, the fans. They are all guilty. I recently realized that I had been remiss in trying to save HAL, so I am guilty too. All these Kyle fans don’t understand what we’ve been going through. They just see a story, and it doesn’t matter to them. I’d like to see how much it matters if they ever put Kyle through what they did to HAL. They love to cite sales too, but HAL sold more copies of comics in his day than Kyle will ever come close to. That’s because the industry is in the gutter. It’s going to take a noble effort to pull it out. I know so many people who quit comics all together just because of what happened to HAL JORDAN. I could probably get most of them back if DC set things right. I, however, never gave up. If we keep fighting, we can win.

Thanks to everyone who has supported me here. I know it’s a long thread. You guys know what comics are about. May you all one day see a new Emerald Dawn.

Rob Staeger

11-22-2002, 11:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Antisocial:

DC was too quick to cancel the new Spectre series. What they should've done was hire John Ostrander back as the writer. He did a fill in issue for the current series and it was actually good.
<hr></blockquote>

Really? What issue was this. I always liked Ostrander's take on the Spectre,and would be interested to see what he does with the Jordan version.

Rob

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 11:26 AM

JMD did good work scripting for Justice League and the whole run, and I really like most of his stuff on Spider-Man but all of this new age stuff he injects into the DC super-heroes now makes me... sick.

I keep reading about a story where Batman tracks down a mass-murderer only to find out hes repented and converted into some eastern religion. This supposedly is a moral quandry for Batman.

Actually, that makes me angry. In reality making whatever deal in preperation for your aferlife does not change what you have to answer for in your corporeal existence.

I could murder hundreds, ask Jesus to forgive me, and when he does I would still have to go to jail.

While I can imagine a mass murderer dissenting on this poin I can't see Batman doing so. It doesn't matter how bad someone feels. Guilty feelings are not redemption. Batman would go into touchy-feely land, and take the bad guy back for trial.

What angers me is that JMD thinks this is an actual story filled with drama and good questions about this and that when it isn't. Not only that, but he's ripping on a character.

The Blue Spider

11-22-2002, 11:29 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:


Thanks to everyone who has supported me here. I know it’s a long thread. You guys know what comics are about. May you all one day see a new Emerald Dawn.<hr></blockquote>

While we're demanding change...

Ron Marz did a few good things for Hal Jordan. He made some changes and additions to his early years that fit well enough into the Silver Age continuity but make it nearly impossible logically for him to be the drunken low life he was in Emerald Dawn.

So leave us not curse Ron Marz totally.

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 11:33 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Brian Langlois:
Yes, I know the blame lies solely with the writers and editors at DC. I am proposing ways for them to fix it and make it acceptable to the legions of disenfranchised HAL fans out there.<hr></blockquote>

They can't. Every one of those "legions of disenfranchised fans" has his own idea of what will work. Nobody could please them all.

[quote]Is it so wrong to care so much about a fictional character?<hr></blockquote>

Well, at the very least, as someone else on these boards put it, it's creepy. But then, I've always been the kind of reader who cares about a story for the length of time it takes me to read it, then pretty much forgets it afterwards. I like a number of fictional concepts, but I don't think I've ever really obsessed over any one character or plotline.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 11:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by TaylorPorter:
The whole GL concept seems like wish-fulfillment to me...<hr></blockquote>

I think most superhero comics have that element of wish-fulfillment in them. Which might explain why many readers grow obsessed with the fictional characters depicted therein. The characters in superhero comics are stand-ins for these readers' own fantasies, and anyone who messes with those fantasies is bound to cause the reader consternation. This gets even trickier when you realize that every person has a slightly different fantasy, and thus a different interpretation of how a character "should" act to fulfill that fantasy. I've always considered it a better idea to hook your personal fantasies into characters who aren't controlled by someone else, like making up your own characters in your head or something.

- Elayne

Elayne Riggs

11-22-2002, 11:43 AM

[quote]Originally posted by aphterburn:
I'm sick of this crap that everyone shovels on Kyle Rayner. Kyle Rayner's first year as Green Lantern was more interesting than the prior thirty years. Know why? Because Kyle is a human being with human friends and human problems. He has gay friends (do you think Hal would...<hr></blockquote>

Oh, absolutely I think Hal would. This is, after all, the fellow who went around with Green Arrow righting social wrongs in the '70s. Had DC been allowed (or brave enough) to do gay-themed stories in the days when the real-life modern gay movement was in its nascience, I've no doubt O'Neill and Adams would have done 'em.

- Elayne

can1

11-22-2002, 11:51 AM

Brian

Do you notice that the ones that go out of their way to remind everyone that Hal is dead and we should get over also the ones that go out of their way to defend Kyle. IF Hal is just a charactyer in a comic book the same must apply for Kyle. His time will come as well. Just as the 'contemporary fanboy' passed on Hal and his square jawed, boy scout image so too will the next generation pass on Kyles hipster doofus appeal. He is most definitely a product of his time. The ever so slightly slacker, coming of age, creative type personality, coffee house superhero of the 90s. I still remember those fantastic debates between Mike Barr and Marv Wolfman about the lasting affects of Crisis. Someday, someone will tell a story to undo all that was done. They better hope they treat their 'Kyle' with a little more class and dignity than they did our 'Hal'.

The saddest part is that this did not have to happen in order for Kyle to exist. It was because the editor and his writer could not tell a good story that involved Hal leaving and a new character coming on board. Tey went for the gimmicks, the fireworks, the shock value. It was the thing to do at the time. THe BIG EVENT. They all blowed up real good. I don't want to mince words here so let me say this as clearly as possible. What was done to the character sucked. It was an easy way out. It was CHEAP, CHEESEY, DOPEY, MINDLESS, TOTALLY LACKING IN CREATIVITY. They went for shock instead of content. Dooley strted with a gimmick and buit a half assed story around it. They took Hal and turned him into someone else just to suit there story instead of writing a wonderful ending piece that suited Hal's character. How much more interesting and challenging would it have been to write someting good that involved Hal just walking away. Instead they went for the bang, zoom, the death, the slaughter. YAAAAAA. Now thats satisfying. This is what troubles us. Now we have to suffer through all this redemption for a character that should never have been taken down this road.

Brian at this point I have no desire to see Hal as GL in this continuity. I'd rather he remain in a time when heroes had ideals, when people didn't think it was tired and odd for characters to be noble and admirable by design. When Superman was the biggest hero on the block and Batman was 'the Batman' and he was equal parts detective, fighter, and human being. THe fact is Kyle is really not that bad of a character. I confess that I enjoyed Grant Morrison's take on him.

I think for all those who feel the need to bash the 'Hal fans' out there you need to understand that this could be your favorite character some day. When the story dictates ridiculous changes to the character, when it all seems justified because its a blockbuster you all better take notice. The next time it could be one of your favorites.

In the meantime I would love to see a recon book written by James Robinson and not Kurt Busiek. James is the master of telling classic stories that involve classic characters with a slight contemprary appeal.